Rapping at McDonalds leads to citation

[alexz2317]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570394,00.html

Teenagers cited by police after rapping there order at a McDonalds drive-thru.

What do you think, was this warranted? I say yes. Basically they were being idiots in my opinion.

[Czhorat]

Does Utah have a statute against being an idiot in alexz2317's opinion? If so, it is justified. If not, it does not seem to me from the article you posted that they did anything seriously enough wrong to merit any police attention at all.

[Lego-Man]

McDonald's needs to pull their ad showing the kids in the car rapping at the drive thru. That's what started this. I don't know how many times I saw a popular commercial replayed by kids trying for a laugh.

[alexz2317]

I find it to be harrassment. Somebody working in the drive-through trying to do there job, getting hassled.

[Czhorat]

I find it to be harrassment. Somebody working in the drive-through trying to do there job, getting hassled.

If it was jsut driving through once and giving their order in a silly voice, I'd say no real harm here. Working with customers means having to deal with angry, unruly, or silly customers.

[alexz2317]

If it was jsut driving through once and giving their order in a silly voice, I'd say no real harm here. Working with customers means having to deal with angry, unruly, or silly customers.
As someone who works in customer service, I don't see the point. All they are doing is working. Why feel the need to hassle them?

[Lego-Man]

As someone who works in customer service, I don't see the point. All they are doing is working. Why feel the need to hassle them?

Makes the hassler feel bigger. It's the same as being a bully - they know the employee will get reprimanded if the employee responds.

[jeepers]

Oh hell, you can just tell them to knock it off and then to get out of line if they're not really making an order.

Why does everything in life seem to necessitate a 'serious reponse'?

When I was a freshman in high school, a bunch of us on the gymnastics team pretended that we were 'car parts' (four somersaulters as wheels, that sort of thing) and tried to 'drive through' Jack in the Box and order. Yes, we seriously were going to order and pay.

We got a laugh, some eye rolling and were told that if we wanted something, we had to go to the counter and order it. They laughed, we laughed and then we went inside.

Btw, there were no cars in line, it was about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and we weren't 'disrupting' anything. We were just a bunch of kids having fun.

Pull the rap commercial, it surely is what is feeding this. Think that years ago that no one did THIS in the drive through, either?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCH7Mo7AjF0

I can guarantee it.

[Stantz]

great use of police resources !!
They should have arrested him for not having any dope-beats.

[SFC(R)L]

Being an idiot is not chargeable.

The matter needs to be dropped and the police need a butt chewing session on what is and what is not appropriate police business.

[LouC]

If it was jsut driving through once and giving their order in a silly voice, I'd say no real harm here. Working with customers means having to deal with angry, unruly, or silly customers.

I think the police were justified in giving the doofus teens a verbal warning for their idiotic acts but I wouldn't say ticket them based on what I have read so far.

They did take the incident too far in my opinion and certainly gave cause for McDonald employees to be seriously concerned.

To many attacks on drive up workers to not take unresponsive groups in cars seriously.

The parents of course fully side with the teens (that is a hint) and plan to fight the charges, I guess that means lawyer up.

[Mimiheart]

Pull the rap commercial, it surely is what is feeding this. Think that years ago that no one did THIS in the drive through, either?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCH7Mo7AjF0

I can guarantee it.A friend of mine and I went into the store and she sang it. The manager gave her a Big Mac for free because he said everyone always messed it up. We were ten or so, and this was the updated one in the early 90s, but still.

[oakleaf98]

Now if McDonalds made a commercial with Rock N Roll. Yeah, i hate rap.

[JediMindTrick]

Being an idiot is not chargeable.

The matter needs to be dropped and the police need a butt chewing session on what is and what is not appropriate police business.

Yes because obviously the police, not the employees at McDonalds, were the ones who called 911 wanting something done. :rolleyes:

[SFC(R)L]

Yes because obviously the police, not the employees at McDonalds, were the ones who called 911 wanting something done. :rolleyes:

Don't roll your eyes.

It's disrespectful.

And calling 911 over dudes in the drivethru should have landed those involved in jail for a false report of an emergency, which this was not.

And the police need to learn to use judgment.

How many actual crimes could have been prevented if the officers involved were say, patrolling the town vice handling this stupid crap?

We'll never know, and neither will you as you're too busy rolling your eyes, since you're just so damn smart.

[JediMindTrick]

Don't roll your eyes.

It's disrespectful.

And calling 911 over dudes in the drivethru should have landed those involved in jail for a false report of an emergency, which this was not.

And the police need to learn to use judgment.

How many actual crimes could have been prevented if the officers involved were say, patrolling the town vice handling this stupid crap?

We'll never know, and neither will you as you're too busy rolling your eyes, since you're just so damn smart.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

According the clerks at McDonalds, funny how your implied assumption is that they must be lying so that it fits your police bashing attempt, the kids were holding up the drive thru which was preventing the business from making money and serving other customers. The kids they refused to move on. So you've got disorderly conduct and trespassing at that point.

And actually I don't know if they called 911 or called the non emergency number. The same dispatchers answer the call and the only difference is how the call is prioritized in getting answered by the dispatcher. Either way the police were called to the scene, a crime was reported, and the police acted on it. Police don't get to pick and choose what calls come into them and they don't get to pick and choose what calls they get to respond to.

[Panhead0422]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

According the clerks at McDonald's, funny how your implied assumption is that they must be lying so that it fits your police bashing attempt, the kids were holding up the drive thru which was preventing the business from making money and serving other customers. The kids they refused to move on. So you've got disorderly conduct and trespassing at that point.

And actually I don't know if they called 911 or called the non emergency number. The same dispatchers answer the call and the only difference is how the call is prioritized in getting answered by the dispatcher. Either way the police were called to the scene, a crime was reported, and the police acted on it. Police don't get to pick and choose what calls come into them and they don't get to pick and choose what calls they get to respond to.

It may be different in your state, but in the state of Florida, if the person or persons that the property owner wants trespassed are not at the scene when the LEO arrives, they can not be given a trespass warning and can not be arrested for trespass after warning. If they are still there when the LEO arrives, a trespass warning is issued and if the person(s) refuse to leave after that, they go directly to jail for trespass after warning. If at some time in the future they return and are at that location when the LEO's arrive, they go to jail. In this case, based only on what I have read here, I would take it to court all day long. The officer's in question did not see this misdemeanor (trespass, if asked to leave) take place, and can not prove disorderly conduct (another misdemeanor,if so charged). Based on the information shown here, the officer's must have been having a really slow night, if they had time to figure out where these kid's went after they left the McDonald's and then wait for the volleyball game to finish. I normally support the officer(s) involved, but in this case, with the information available right now, I think that these Officers were at least partially out of line.

[merickson]

Lead line of the OP link, "Four Utah teenagers have been cited for disorderly conduct after they rapped their order at a McDonald's drive-through."

Trespassing is not the legal issue.

[troy]

Big waste of resources when the cops could be out looking for people wearing baggy pants and arresting them.

[JediMindTrick]

It may be different in your state, but in the state of Florida, if the person or persons that the property owner wants trespassed are not at the scene when the LEO arrives, they can not be given a trespass warning and can not be arrested for trespass after warning. If they are still there when the LEO arrives, a trespass warning is issued and if the person(s) refuse to leave after that, they go directly to jail for trespass after warning. If at some time in the future they return and are at that location when the LEO's arrive, they go to jail. In this case, based only on what I have read here, I would take it to court all day long. The officer's in question did not see this misdemeanor (trespass, if asked to leave) take place, and can not prove disorderly conduct (another misdemeanor,if so charged). Based on the information shown here, the officer's must have been having a really slow night, if they had time to figure out where these kid's went after they left the McDonald's and then wait for the volleyball game to finish. I normally support the officer(s) involved, but in this case, with the information available right now, I think that these Officers were at least partially out of line.

The article says the teens were cited. That means they were either given a ticket or a juvenile referral to court. It counts the same as an arrest but its different in how its executed. In my state police cannot physically arrest someone for a non violent misdemeanor that did not occur in their presence but they can cite or refer. So based on the information here the police didn't do anything they shouldn't have.

And lets say the police had done nothing as you suggest. You will then have the owner of the McDonalds (most McD's are franchises with individual owners) whose business was harmed by these teens going to the mayor and press complaining about the do nothing police. Police are damned if they, damned if they don't in these situations.

[natalie addict]

Being an idiot is not chargeable.

The matter needs to be dropped and the police need a butt chewing session on what is and what is not appropriate police business.

Which just confirms a general rule I have, to avoid cops, steer a wide angle around them and not interact with them if at all possible.

[Alaric]

As is often the case, there is more to the story than has been reported.

My daughter knows the four teens who were cited. One of them turned 18 two weeks ago so he is cited as an adult. These four are good kids who actually do a pretty decent rap. And they have rapped their order before and been served without incident.

I also know which manager is that turned them in. I've eaten in that restaurant many times. She if often rude to customers and employees alike. This is simply more of the same.

The version of event as told by the teens and the version of the event reported to the police is not the same version, and it may very well be possible that the McDonald's manager may have made a false statement to the police, which is a crime itself.

The four teens were on their way to a high school volley ball game and rapped their order at the drive thru. The clerk didn't get the whole order and asked them what they were ordering, so they rapped the order again. Remember, they had done this several times before without incident. The manager on duty was not amused so she went outside to confront them. There was no one else in the drive thru at the time. She asked them if they were going to order. One of the kid said "we already gave you our [expletive] order." The manager then asked them to leave and they did. According to the teens that was it. The manager however reported to police that they were disrupting business, harassing customers, and that they threatened her and her employees. The employees version does not match the manager's version. However, the usage of the one expletvie by one of the teens does complicate things somewhat, but the courts have ruled that using expletives does not constitute disorderly conduct by itself.

Needless to say, the McDonald's restaurant in question has already paid a price for the manager's boorish treatment of customers who were singing a jingle just as has been portrayed for decades on McDonald's commercials. Its ony a few blocks from the high school and its now on full boycott by the local high school students and a sizable portion of the town population. The local radio talk shows have had a hay day with the story.

What remains to be seen is if the police will investigate the manager for making a false police report by exaggerating the event.

[Panhead0422]

Snipped. Police are damned if they, damned if they don't in these situations.

Unfortunate, but true.

[Wookinstien]

Well normally I consider Rap a felony charge, but this is ridiculous.

[SFC(R)L]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

According the clerks at McDonalds, funny how your implied assumption is that they must be lying so that it fits your police bashing attempt, the kids were holding up the drive thru which was preventing the business from making money and serving other customers. The kids they refused to move on. So you've got disorderly conduct and trespassing at that point.

And actually I don't know if they called 911 or called the non emergency number. The same dispatchers answer the call and the only difference is how the call is prioritized in getting answered by the dispatcher. Either way the police were called to the scene, a crime was reported, and the police acted on it. Police don't get to pick and choose what calls come into them and they don't get to pick and choose what calls they get to respond to.

I made no implied assumptions...I state facts. The fact is that this was not a police matter.

Nor did I bash the police. I stated that professional officers do not pursue these matters when they arrive and find a prank going on. They tell everyone to break it up and they move on. More to the point, the dispatcher should have triaged this call and shortstopped it.

You can't trespass on a business that by its nature wants you to enter their property. That seems to be a matter of basic intellect.



When the police arrived and get the story, they had a duty to drive away. They didn't, and now it's not going to end well.

As for your eye rolling, roll them at the ignore feature.

Signed,
Member, Texas State Trooper Association http://www.texasstatetroopers.org/
Member, Texas Sheriff's Association http://www.txsheriffs.org/

[SFC(R)L]

Which just confirms a general rule I have, to avoid cops, steer a wide angle around them and not interact with them if at all possible.

The vast majority of them are professionals who do a great job.

The ones you hear about are involved in these types of incidents.

[natalie addict]

The vast majority of them are professionals who do a great job.

The ones you hear about are involved in these types of incidents.

That is probably true, but I can't tell the difference until I interact with them and by that time it's too late. Ergo, avoid contact unless necessary. A bad encounter can really ruin your day, whilst discretion as the better part of valor, allows you to move on with your day.

[LouC]

So officers get to pick and choose what response if any they want to make to a call from dispatch?

The officers, in my opinion, should as I said before have told the repeat idiot teen drive up rappers to knock it off and then send them on their way.

The fact, if it is one, that they had successfully done this previously does not make repeating the stupidity OK.

I am happy to hear the entire school student body is boycotting that McDonald's, that is probably the best thing that could possibly happen for those student's bodies. :))

I hope the boycott works so well that that McDonald's location looses so much money that they shutter the store, and that they have to fire all the people that work there, yeah that will show that evil manager!!!!!

[EnchantedFrog]

I find myself reminded of the Michael Douglas character in the movie Falling Down who walks into the fast food joint one minute too late to order from the breakfast menu.
The rocket scientists who work at MickyD's would be better off if they just maintain their company-policy-smile and accommodate whatever ordering style they are confronted with.

[LouC]

I find myself reminded of the Michael Douglas character in the movie Falling Down who walks into the fast food joint one minute too late to order from the breakfast menu.
The rocket scientists who work at MickyD's would be better off if they just maintain their company-policy-smile and accommodate whatever ordering style they are confronted with.

No they shouldn't.

I love how non sensible behavior is so readily accepted by people, even encouraged, when it comes to simple rules or conditions they don't like or agree with?

:wall:

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

If the cops actually went to the length of citing them, my guess is that their real failing was failing the attitude test when the cops arrived.

[PhilRocksinOHIO.]

Anyone who raps is an idiot. So yeah, I agree with Alex.

[HeyJude]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570394,00.html

Teenagers cited by police after rapping there order at a McDonalds drive-thru.

What do you think, was this warranted? I say yes. Basically they were being idiots in my opinion.

I imagine that working at a Micky Dee's drive-thru has to be dull robotic type work, the kind of job you go to just coz you need a paycheck. It would seem to me that a customer rapping their order would be a welcome relief to an otherwise boring day. If I had been the employee, I think it would have put a big smile on my face.

[merickson]

I imagine that working at a Micky Dee's drive-thru has to be dull robotic type work, the kind of job you go to just coz you need a paycheck. It would seem to me that a customer rapping their order would be a welcome relief to an otherwise boring day. If I had been the employee, I think it would have put a big smile on my face.
There are sensors in drive thru lanes that record when the car arrived at the menu, when it left, when it arrived at the pay window, when it left, similary pass out window. AND management requires that those numbers meet standards.

I was working at a differnent fast food chain. The District Mgr was visiting and a customer came thru the drive thru and wanted to eat his meal at the drive-thru window (who knows why, the customer is always...), since there was no one else behind them in the drive thru, I was cool with it, but the DM had me to ask the customer to pull away from the pass out window in order to keep the timers numbers looking nice. (... well, I guess that customer wasn't right).

If their management is like that, I can understand why the employees might not appreciate the rap.

[DLaw911]

No prosecutor is going to file charges in this case.

[NCRedState]

No prosecutor is going to file charges in this case.

The charges were filed when the citation was issued.

[DLaw911]

The charges were filed when the citation was issued.Oh so a prosecutor issued the citation?

[NCRedState]

Oh so a prosecutor issued the citation?

No prosecutor required to file charges for an infraction.

But I'm sure you knew that.

[Lego-Man]

Oh so a prosecutor issued the citation?

I thought a citation was charges filed.

[JediMindTrick]

No prosecutor required to file charges for an infraction.

But I'm sure you knew that.

Disorderly conduct is not an infraction.

DLaw is correct (you should know better than to argue with a lawyer on these things). Police don't file charges, prosecutors do. Charges are not officially filed until a person has an arraignment which is their first court date.

[JediMindTrick]

What remains to be seen is if the police will investigate the manager for making a false police report by exaggerating the event.

There is nothing to investigate. It comes down to a he said / she said situation and unless someone comes forward and admits they were lying it will always be so. Its not as if police have a crystal ball to look back in time to see what really was said.

You can also be assured that the teens of course going to minimize their culpability. And you can be sure the manager is of course going to maximize their culpability. And each side is of course going to claim they did nothing wrong.

[JediMindTrick]

I thought a citation was charges filed.

A citation is a summons to go to court. Don't feel bad, outside of lawyers and cops most people tend get this stuff mixed up.

When cops make an arrest or issue a citation they are essentially recommending what charges be filed by the prosecutor. The prosecutor will review the case and if he agrees he will then file those charges in court. Sometimes the prosecutor feels harsher charges are necessary, sometimes lesser, and sometimes no charges.

A prosecutor not filing charges after the police have arrested also does not automatically mean its a bad arrest / summons. There is a difference between probable cause (the police's standard) and beyond a reasonable doubt (the prosecutors).

[NCRedState]

Disorderly conduct is not an infraction.

DLaw is correct (you should know better than to argue with a lawyer on these things). Police don't file charges, prosecutors do. Charges are not officially filed until a person has an arraignment which is their first court date.

You may want to take this up with the Utah Legislature and American Fork, Utah Police Sgt. Gregg Ludlow.

Disorderly conduct citations are issued when someone does something to cause annoyance or alarm, Ludlow said. The citation is an infraction similar to a speeding ticket, Ludlow said.

http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_16032/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=4VCRNat5

76-9-102. Disorderly conduct.
(1) A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
(a) he refuses to comply with the lawful order of the police to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose; or
(b) intending to cause public inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
(i) engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous, or threatening behavior;
(ii) makes unreasonable noises in a public place;
(iii) makes unreasonable noises in a private place which can be heard in a public place; or
(iv) obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic.
(2) "Public place," for the purpose of this section, means any place to which the public or a substantial group of the public has access and includes but is not limited to streets, highways, and the common areas of schools, hospitals, apartment houses, office buildings, transport facilities, and shops.
(3) Disorderly conduct is a class C misdemeanor if the offense continues after a request by a person to desist. Otherwise it is an infraction.

Amended by Chapter 20, 1999 General Session

http://law.justia.com/utah/codes/title76/76_0b003.html

I'm sure your apology is forthcoming. :mrgreen:

[NCRedState]

A citation is a summons to go to court. Don't feel bad, outside of lawyers and cops most people tend get this stuff mixed up.

When cops make an arrest or issue a citation they are essentially recommending what charges be filed by the prosecutor. The prosecutor will review the case and if he agrees he will then file those charges in court. Sometimes the prosecutor feels harsher charges are necessary, sometimes lesser, and sometimes no charges.

A prosecutor not filing charges after the police have arrested also does not automatically mean its a bad arrest / summons. There is a difference between probable cause (the police's standard) and beyond a reasonable doubt (the prosecutors).

In Utah, and other states, the prosecutor is not even involved in an infraction unless there is a not guilty plea.

[AutoRacer55]

I'm surprised this guy wasn't cited for his order placement at McDonald's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtYdDK1uTDI

Synopsis: A fellow we all know and love places his order at Mickey D's in a rather funny way.

[Dual867PowerMac]

I don't think they should've been arrested. However, the cashier or the manager should've told them to stop being morons and place their order or leave.

In this ****ed up country, however, they would've probably been arrested for cultural insensitivity or some garbage. :rolleyes:

[HeyJude]

The fact that this story is even on the radar gives testimate to the idiotic shape our country is in.

[JediMindTrick]

You may want to take this up with the Utah Legislature and American Fork, Utah Police Sgt. Gregg Ludlow.



http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_16032/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=4VCRNat5



http://law.justia.com/utah/codes/title76/76_0b003.html

I'm sure your apology is forthcoming. :mrgreen:

Well most states, mine included, its always a misdemeanor. If you read part 3 you can see that even in Utah it can be a misdemeanor.

[JediMindTrick]

I don't think they should've been arrested. However, the cashier or the manager should've told them to stop being morons and place their order or leave.

In this ****ed up country, however, they would've probably been arrested for cultural insensitivity or some garbage. :rolleyes:

They were not arrested. Reread the story, they were cited. Arrested means they were cuffed and stuffed. Completely different thing though the end punishment could be the same.

[NCRedState]

Well most states, mine included, its always a misdemeanor. If you read part 3 you can see that even in Utah it can be a misdemeanor.

Apology accepted. ;)

[FidelisAdMortem]

The defendants, ie the teenagers are going to have their side of what occured to minimize that affect the court case will have on their lives.

The police were called on a complaint and handled it according to the law, and the complaint, they did their job.

The court is now the right avenue to decide the rest of this case.

[Dual867PowerMac]

They were not arrested. Reread the story, they were cited. Arrested means they were cuffed and stuffed. Completely different thing though the end punishment could be the same.
Fine...

This situation was mishandled. The proper response by the cashier and the store manager would have been to tell these pieces of garbage to not be a bunch of morons and show McDonald's employees respect since we're feeding you.

Better yet, knock the bastards upside the heads for being morons then tell them off.

Of course, that would've probably gotten the cashier and manager in trouble for being "culturally insensitive." :rolleyes:

[Fitz]

There is nothing to investigate. It comes down to a he said / she said situation and unless someone comes forward and admits they were lying it will always be so. Its not as if police have a crystal ball to look back in time to see what really was said.

You can also be assured that the teens of course going to minimize their culpability. And you can be sure the manager is of course going to maximize their culpability. And each side is of course going to claim they did nothing wrong.
I doubt the bolded part.
I can't imagine McDonald's wanting to push this any further than it already has.
It's probably best for them if this just quietly disappears.

[DLaw911]

Apology accepted. ;)You're still missing the point. A citation is a promise to appear. It is very common for persons to receive citations and go to court and find no charges filed .... or even MORE serious charges filed.

For example, a person might be cited for speeding and go to court and find that a prosecutor has filed charges for driving on a suspended license.

I predict a prosecutor WILL review these charges and decline to prosecute. As a former prosecuter it was very common for police agencies to being questionable infraction charges to us to review.

[FidelisAdMortem]

That doesn't happen in NY.

If you receive a citation, you go to court for that citation, you dont appear and mysteriously find other charges.

If and only if you are arrested, does the Prosecutor when drawing up the case can decide to downgrade or upgrade the charges.

[DLaw911]

A little about one of the "defendants" in this case. A State Certified EMT:
http://www.topix.com/forum/business/healthcare/TN7QP3T855PCL5N12

[FidelisAdMortem]

So what does that mean?

[LouC]

A little about one of the "defendants" in this case. A State Certified EMT:
http://www.topix.com/forum/business/healthcare/TN7QP3T855PCL5N12

So?

Makes the actions of his at the drive up all the more incredulous.

[NCRedState]

You're still missing the point.
I am not missing anything. :rolleyes:

A citation is a promise to appear.

No, it's a summons to appear, to answer the charges written on it.

It is very common for persons to receive citations and go to court and find no charges filed .... or even MORE serious charges filed.

Maybe in la la land, but not in the real world. Most citations never go through the hands of a prosecutor.



I predict a prosecutor WILL review these charges and decline to prosecute. As a former prosecuter it was very common for police agencies to being questionable infraction charges to us to review.

Decline to prosecute, which means drop the "charges" that were cited.

I would think a former prosecutor could spell prosecutor. :whistle:

[NCRedState]

So what does that mean?

That they should know better?

[FidelisAdMortem]

Who knows.................

[snow96]

It may be different in your state, but in the state of Florida, if the person or persons that the property owner wants trespassed are not at the scene when the LEO arrives, they can not be given a trespass warning and can not be arrested for trespass after warning. If they are still there when the LEO arrives, a trespass warning is issued and if the person(s) refuse to leave after that, they go directly to jail for trespass after warning. If at some time in the future they return and are at that location when the LEO's arrive, they go to jail. In this case, based only on what I have read here, I would take it to court all day long. The officer's in question did not see this misdemeanor (trespass, if asked to leave) take place, and can not prove disorderly conduct (another misdemeanor,if so charged). Based on the information shown here, the officer's must have been having a really slow night, if they had time to figure out where these kid's went after they left the McDonald's and then wait for the volleyball game to finish. I normally support the officer(s) involved, but in this case, with the information available right now, I think that these Officers were at least partially out of line.


Okay being in Utah . . it's not the same. Here in Utah a citizen can swear out a complaint against someone. Most likely what happend in this case. officer shows up, suspects are gone. Manager of the store fills out a statement and signs it. By signing the paper, the manager is on the hook if it goes to court not the officer. Once an officer has a signed complaint and wants to press charges . . . well the rest is history after that.

What if someone does it maliciasly (sp) just to get someone. Well it goes to court and comes out it was a false statement. Whole lotta trouble. person signing the statement is charged with a false report, false information and a bunch of other crap. Then they are on the hook for a civil suit by the person they filed on as well.

So to sum up in utah. I'm a 911 dispater. I get a call (either on the 911 line or non emergency line), my protocal is to dispatch an officer (call priorities range from 1 - 5. 1 being life threatening situation to 5 being a telephone message for an officer.) Officer goes and talkes to the person calling in the complaint. Person talking to officer signs a complaint. officer then has to investigate and follow through.

[snow96]

More to the point, the dispatcher should have triaged this call and shortstopped it.


Signed,
Member, Texas State Trooper Association http://www.texasstatetroopers.org/
Member, Texas Sheriff's Association http://www.txsheriffs.org/

Wrong. There are many times that a dispatcher says to themselfs. "This call is a bunch of crap."

But you know what. We HAVE to . . . yes I said HAVE to give the call to an officer.

Then it's up to the officer on what to do. If the manager was insistent on signing a complaint . . well then the officers hands are tied as well.

Signed,
current 911 dispatcher in Utah

[snow96]

Oh so a prosecutor issued the citation?

It's like a speeding ticket Dlaw.

The kids have the option of paying the fine schedule, or going to court to fight it. Simple charge will be in what in utah is a Justice court. Officer and manager will be on one table, students on the other.

Only if it looks like it will be a heated fight will a county attorney show up. And the kids will have to pay for an attorney if they want one.

[JediMindTrick]

Wrong. There are many times that a dispatcher says to themselfs. "This call is a bunch of crap."

But you know what. We HAVE to . . . yes I said HAVE to give the call to an officer.

Then it's up to the officer on what to do. If the manager was insistent on signing a complaint . . well then the officers hands are tied as well.

Signed,
current 911 dispatcher in Utah

Yep. We don't get to pick and choose which calls to go on. I've had to handle many a call where I just want to tell the citizen complaining to get a life and a real complaint - "My neighbor's sprinkler is getting my fence wet," "My neighbor mowed part of my lawn," "My neighbor parked on the street in front of my house," "My boyfriend hurt my feelings by calling me a *****," etc, etc. Sometimes there is no crime but other times there may be one like the one I mention where the neighbor mowed part of the lawn. In this case there was a patch of grass between the houses that wasn't divided by a fence. Basically it was half and half each (it was about a 15 ft by 30 ft section) and the neighbors hated each other. From numerous prior complaints each neighbor had been officially trespassed from the other neighbor's property. One day the one neighbor was mowing the lawn and just decided to mow the whole section that divided the two properties. So technically the lawn mowing neighbor did trespass and the other neighbor demanded an arrest be made. It was complete crap but the responding officer was stuck because technically it was trespassing. So he allowed one neighbor to sign a trespassing complaint.

For everyone upset about this citation think for a minute what a citizens arrest means. A person can demand to make a citizens arrest via the police. If there is absolutely no basis for it then the police won't do it but if there was a law broken and there is some evidence to support it, regardless of how dumb it may be, then the officer is pretty much stuck allowing the citizen to press charges / sign a citation. Many times we will try to talk them out of it but some people are such idiots that it can't be done.

[NCRedState]

......

For everyone upset about this citation think for a minute what a citizens arrest means. A person can demand to make a citizens arrest via the police. If there is absolutely no basis for it then the police won't do it but if there was a law broken and there is some evidence to support it, regardless of how dumb it may be, then the officer is pretty much stuck allowing the citizen to press charges / sign a citation. Many times we will try to talk them out of it but some people are such idiots that it can't be done.

Luckily, for the police, the compainant here must present his evidence, in person, to a magistrate before a warrant is issued.

[JediMindTrick]

Luckily, for the police, the compainant here must present his evidence, in person, to a magistrate before a warrant is issued.

Huh?

If your talking about the McDonalds case your way off base. A warrant is something that is issued in a number of situations: 1) a defendant fails to appear for a court date, 2) a defendant fails to pay their fines, or 3) a prosecutor requests a warrant for someones arrest - this usually only happens if its a sensitive case or the suspect can't be found because otherwise the police just arrest them. In the McD's case here the officers issued a citation to the teens and apparently in Utah this is just an infraction meaning a warrant couldn't be issued as you don't issue warrants for infractions.

Now if your talking about a conviction then your right, the citizen who pressed the charges / signed the citation must show up to court and testify against the other person should that person contest the charges. The officer's only role in court is basically to say what the officer personally witnessed or did and usually that just amounts to saying they served the citation.

[NCRedState]

Huh?

If your talking about the McDonalds case your way off base. A warrant is something that is issued in a number of situations: 1) a defendant fails to appear for a court date, 2) a defendant fails to pay their fines, or 3) a prosecutor requests a warrant for somoenes arrest - this usually only happens if its a sensitive case or the suspect can't be found because otherwise the police just arrest them. In the McD's case here the officers issued a citation to the teens and apparently in Utah this is just an infraction meaning a warrant couldn't be issued as you don't issue warrants for infractions.

Now if your talking about a conviction then your right, the citizen who pressed the charges / signed the citation must show up to court and testify against the other person should that person contest the charges. The officer's only role in court is basically to say what the officer personally witnessed or did and usually that just amounts to saying they served the citation.

You've misunderstood. I was referring to the portion of your post I quoted. "Citizens Arrest" type of events where a civilian is the complaining witness, not a police officer.

For everyone upset about this citation think for a minute what a citizens arrest means. A person can demand to make a citizens arrest via the police. If there is absolutely no basis for it then the police won't do it but if there was a law broken and there is some evidence to support it, regardless of how dumb it may be, then the officer is pretty much stuck allowing the citizen to press charges / sign a citation. Many times we will try to talk them out of it but some people are such idiots that it can't be done.

If my neighbor and I are having issues over "trespassing" and you (the police) don't actually witness the trespass I can't demand you cite them. If I want to press charges myself I must go to the Magistrate's Office, where he/she will hear my facts and decide whether or not to issue a warrant for my neighbor's arrest over the trespass allegations.

The "arrest" can simply be a cite and release.

This is in North Carolina, I am not speaking for any other state.

[FidelisAdMortem]

Even thought Jedi likes the idea of peeing on pictures of Jesus our savior, I concur with his explanation. ;-)

[NCRedState]

Even thought Jedi likes the idea of peeing on pictures of Jesus our savior, I concur with his explanation. ;-)

Concur with what you wish, as wrong as it may be, for North Carolina.

[FidelisAdMortem]

You sir, are wrong.

[HeyJude]

Even thought Jedi likes the idea of peeing on pictures of Jesus our savior, I concur with his explanation. ;-)

WHAT?? Do you have a link to that??

[JediMindTrick]

If my neighbor and I are having issues over "trespassing" and you (the police) don't actually witness the trespass I can't demand you cite them. If I want to press charges myself I must go to the Magistrate's Office, where he/she will hear my facts and decide whether or not to issue a warrant for my neighbor's arrest over the trespass allegations.

The "arrest" can simply be a cite and release.

This is in North Carolina, I am not speaking for any other state.

In my state we simply have the citizen sign the citation. The police officer then basically serves a mailman role and delivers it. We don't like to do this because more often than not its a completely stupid incident that really never should have involved police (like the lawnmowing incident I referred to) but there are times where we pretty much get forced into it.

[JediMindTrick]

WHAT?? Do you have a link to that??

He's taking some things I said in another thread out of context.

There is another thread where a bunch of posters were outraged :rolleyes: because on the show Curb Your Enthusiasm the main character got some pee on a picture of Jesus that was hanging over the toilet. They were so so offended :rolleyes: and claiming only christianity ever gets trashed on TV. My position is basically "who cares" and "get a life" and "learn to change the channel." Other posters pretty much pwned those who were outraged by citing countless examples of other religions getting bashed including on the same show, though in different episodes. If your really interested the thread is here in GI and you should be able to easily find it in the first few pages as the title of the thread makes it obvious.

[hillplus]

:))

In the same town, American Fork, the local Sonic put up on their marquee the following information:

"Come 'rap' your order for a chance to win a gift card"

[FidelisAdMortem]

Jedi, I was clear in my posts in that thread.

Nobody owned me.

Get real, small town cop.

[JediMindTrick]

Jedi, I was clear in my posts in that thread.

Nobody owned me.

Get real, small town cop.

Sad to see you delving into personal attacks, your normally a better poster than that.

[FidelisAdMortem]

Sad to see you twisting the truth in regards to my debates.

But heh, it happens. Dont be too sad.

[DLaw911]

It's like a speeding ticket Dlaw.

The kids have the option of paying the fine schedule, or going to court to fight it. Simple charge will be in what in utah is a Justice court. Officer and manager will be on one table, students on the other.

Only if it looks like it will be a heated fight will a county attorney show up. And the kids will have to pay for an attorney if they want one.It's rather interesting since another article I found said the citation had nothing to do with the rapping, but that the kids cursed out a female McDonald's manager. That chances the story quite a bit. But I have to wonder how the police could locate the car and cite the people without OBSERVING the offense. How did they know it was ALL the kids and not just one, and if one then which one.

[NCRedState]

Sad to see you delving into personal attacks, your normally a better poster than that.

What do expect?

You're not NWHYPEEDEE. :rolleyes:

[snow96]

It's rather interesting since another article I found said the citation had nothing to do with the rapping, but that the kids cursed out a female McDonald's manager. That chances the story quite a bit. But I have to wonder how the police could locate the car and cite the people without OBSERVING the offense. How did they know it was ALL the kids and not just one, and if one then which one.

I explained it in another post. A disorderly charge like this is like a reckless driving complaint in utah. The manager signs the complaint and the ticket. The manager gave the officer the plate and described the occupants. Dispatch runs the plate, gets the registered owners address. Officers go to that address, find those who match the description and issue a citation signed by the manager.

now the kids/parents have two choices. Look at a bail schedule included with the citation and send in the fine for disorderly. Or contact the court for a hearing.

The officers shows up, but if the Manager of Mcdee's doesn't they boom charges are gone. Manager shows up, then she presents her side, kids present their side . . then the justice court judge says either yes you guys need to pay the fine, or citation dismissed.

Again let me stress. The officer is NOT the one pressing charges in this case. The Manager IS pressng charges.

Example. Few years back I had a bunch of idiot zoom splat motorcycles passing on double yellows on turns in a canyon. I called 911 on them. Found them at a resturant parked. all inside eating. I filled out a witness statement. Officers counted the number of motorcycles. I personally signed all 10 citations. had they contested the charges, it would have been me in court telling what I saw.

[FidelisAdMortem]

What do expect?

You're not NWHYPEEDEE. :rolleyes:

Correct, Mr. Down in the sticks southerner.

[Ex_Spy_Guy]

i bet if they were good or at least practiced they wouldnt have gotten in trouble.....everyone appreciates talent...

these morons obviously sucked ass..

[DLaw911]

I explained it in another post. A disorderly charge like this is like a reckless driving complaint in utah. The manager signs the complaint and the ticket. The manager gave the officer the plate and described the occupants. Dispatch runs the plate, gets the registered owners address. Officers go to that address, find those who match the description and issue a citation signed by the manager.

now the kids/parents have two choices. Look at a bail schedule included with the citation and send in the fine for disorderly. Or contact the court for a hearing.

The officers shows up, but if the Manager of Mcdee's doesn't they boom charges are gone. Manager shows up, then she presents her side, kids present their side . . then the justice court judge says either yes you guys need to pay the fine, or citation dismissed.

Again let me stress. The officer is NOT the one pressing charges in this case. The Manager IS pressng charges.

Example. Few years back I had a bunch of idiot zoom splat motorcycles passing on double yellows on turns in a canyon. I called 911 on them. Found them at a resturant parked. all inside eating. I filled out a witness statement. Officers counted the number of motorcycles. I personally signed all 10 citations. had they contested the charges, it would have been me in court telling what I saw.I get what you're saying but the general rule is that unless an infraction or misdemeanor occurs in the officer's presence he cannot issue a citation or make an arrest. If this was a citizen's arrest I want to know how the officer could cite everyone in the car and how he could know they were the right people.

Anyway, we'll see if I'm right because I predict a prosecutor will become involved and move to dismiss the case.

[snow96]

I get what you're saying but the general rule is that unless an infraction or misdemeanor occurs in the officer's presence he cannot issue a citation or make an arrest. If this was a citizen's arrest I want to know how the officer could cite everyone in the car and how he could know they were the right people.

Anyway, we'll see if I'm right because I predict a prosecutor will become involved and move to dismiss the case.

If my suspisions on this citation are correst. Won't be a prosecutor. Citation will list a justice court (justice court covers minor cases only) phone number. If they don't want to pay the fine listed, they will call and the court will tell them what day and time to show up in court. At one table will be the Manager of the store, at the other table kids parents and an attorney if they hire one. The officer will also be present to explain why he issued the ticket and how he came to the conclusion.

edit to add:

As a dispatcher if I get a call on a reckless driver. After I've gotten the information my last question is: "Will you sign a complaint if the officer needs you to."

If the person on 911 says yes. I tell the officer "RP will sign". That give the officer the legal right to pull over the car even if they don't see the vehicle breaking the law. The person calling is instructed if they see the traffic stop to pull in behind the officer and wait. The officer will bring a witness statement and the citation back to the person who called in. The person who called in fills out the statement as to what the vehicle was doing and signs it, and also signs the citation. If the person who recieve the citation fights it, a summons is issued to the person who signed the witness statement and citation to appear in court as well. They (the reporting party) don't show up, case dismissed. They show up, again both sides present what happened and a judge rules on it.



both sides will present to the judge (call witnesses and all that) then the judge will rule on it.

Not sure if it is different in california.

[DLaw911]

If my suspisions on this citation are correst. Won't be a prosecutor. Citation will list a justice court (justice court covers minor cases only) phone number. If they don't want to pay the fine listed, they will call and the court will tell them what day and time to show up in court. At one table will be the Manager of the store, at the other table kids parents and an attorney if they hire one. The officer will also be present to explain why he issued the ticket and how he came to the conclusion.

edit to add:

As a dispatcher if I get a call on a reckless driver. After I've gotten the information my last question is: "Will you sign a complaint if the officer needs you to."

If the person on 911 says yes. I tell the officer "RP will sign". That give the officer the legal right to pull over the car even if they don't see the vehicle breaking the law. The person calling is instructed if they see the traffic stop to pull in behind the officer and wait. The officer will bring a witness statement and the citation back to the person who called in. The person who called in fills out the statement as to what the vehicle was doing and signs it, and also signs the citation. If the person who recieve the citation fights it, a summons is issued to the person who signed the witness statement and citation to appear in court as well. They (the reporting party) don't show up, case dismissed. They show up, again both sides present what happened and a judge rules on it.



both sides will present to the judge (call witnesses and all that) then the judge will rule on it.

Not sure if it is different in california.I guess my question is going unanswered. The "vehicle" did not commit a crime. Vehicles are not people. I want to know how the officer knew he was citing the right people. How did he know to cite everyone in the car?

[snow96]

I guess my question is going unanswered. The "vehicle" did not commit a crime. Vehicles are not people. I want to know how the officer knew he was citing the right people. How did he know to cite everyone in the car?

I would guess video. Just about every place here in my small town has it. Other than that.

Manager in witness statement would put. 3 male occupants. number 1 aprox 16 yrs old white male short brown hair, wearing x shirt y pants.

Now a good cop wouldn't find the car and say "hey looking for some kids to arrest". But along the lines of "something happened and need to talk to the kids in it."

Kid "hey I was in it"

cop "who was with you"

kid "why"

cop "you were at the mcdee's at such and such earlier today in that car"

kid "I already told you yes"

Bingo One down just a couple more to go.

[JediMindTrick]

I get what you're saying but the general rule is that unless an infraction or misdemeanor occurs in the officer's presence he cannot issue a citation or make an arrest. If this was a citizen's arrest I want to know how the officer could cite everyone in the car and how he could know they were the right people.

Anyway, we'll see if I'm right because I predict a prosecutor will become involved and move to dismiss the case.

That may be true in your state D but its not in every state. I don't know Utah but I'll trust that Snow does given she works in law enforcement there.

In my state we cannot physically arrest for a non violent misdemeanor that did not occur in our presence but we can cite / summon them if we have probable cause. How else do you think an officer cites someone for a violation in a traffic accident? And its not just infractions, we do it all the time on misdemeanors too.

[JediMindTrick]

I guess my question is going unanswered. The "vehicle" did not commit a crime. Vehicles are not people. I want to know how the officer knew he was citing the right people. How did he know to cite everyone in the car?

Confession does wonders for the soul.

[NCRedState]

Confession does wonders for the soul.

Makes cop's job easier too. :mrgreen:

[DLaw911]

That may be true in your state D but its not in every state. I don't know Utah but I'll trust that Snow does given she works in law enforcement there.

In my state we cannot physically arrest for a non violent misdemeanor that did not occur in out presence but we can cite / summon them if we have probable cause. How else do you think an officer cites someone for a violation in a traffic accident? And its not just infractions, we do it all the time on misdemeanors too.But I'm asking a question about a situation where the only description is the car license number and no suspects at the scene. I suppose the license number gives the officer probable cause to stop the vehicle and question the occupants. But that not the way the "news" reported this story (not that I believe the news). It was said the officer located the vehicle at a volley ball game and issued citations. It seems that a step in the middle is missing from the story.

[DLaw911]

Confession does wonders for the soul.More than likely admissions (e.g. that they were in the car at McDonalds). I am a little curious as to what they said.

[snow96]

That may be true in your state D but its not in every state. I don't know Utah but I'll trust that Snow does given she works in law enforcement there.

In my state we cannot physically arrest for a non violent misdemeanor that did not occur in our presence but we can cite / summon them if we have probable cause. How else do you think an officer cites someone for a violation in a traffic accident? And its not just infractions, we do it all the time on misdemeanors too.

ppppsssst . . . . I'm a he. not all dispatchers are ladies :whistle:

[snow96]

But I'm asking a question about a situation where the only description is the car license number and no suspects at the scene. I suppose the license number gives the officer probable cause to stop the vehicle and question the occupants. But that not the way the "news" reported this story (not that I believe the news). It was said the officer located the vehicle at a volley ball game and issued citations. It seems that a step in the middle is missing from the story.

News story's don't give all the information. Never have, never will. I know I was a news director at a couple different radio stations.

Now how did they find the car and who was driving.

edit to add: My dispatch center is a loooooong way away from where this occured. The above is merely speculation on my part from listening to officers and seeing how they work. I have no formal law enforcement training (other than what is required to be a dispatcher.)

Try this on for size. Officer has dispatch run the plate. Dispatch gives officer registered owners name, address and phone number. Officer calls the Registered owner (or stops by the house) asks do you own a (fill in the black color model year) vehicle. Parents: Why yes I do. Officer: do you know who is driving the vehicle. Parents: My son was driving it to the volley ball game, why? Officer - it may have been involved in an incident earlier. parent - well here's his cell phone number. Officer thanks.

Officer drives to the school calls the teens cell phone and asks him to come outside to talk with him. That doesn't work go in and start asking around have you seen student x here at the game. Of course his/her buddies want to know whats going on and go out too.

Officers usually are not the first one's that fell off the turnip truck. They don't share all that they know right off the bat.

A few questions to establish a) he/she was driving the car all day. b)he/she was at the mcdonalds at the time in question. c) who was in the car with him/her.

Then surprise! Here are you citations for disorderly conduct.

[DLaw911]

The 4 criminals:
http://www.sltrib.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=2708954