Thanks to our lawyers and judges another child was raped and murdered

[Remus Lupin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/us/23girl.html?hpw

I just about had enough of hearing how these child rapists are getting so lite sentences for molesting children till these scum murder a child.
I have NO RESPECT for our justice system who allow the innocent to be harmed and the perp get off scot free.

[DLaw911]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/us/23girl.html?hpw

I just about had enough of hearing how these child rapists are getting so lite sentences for molesting children till these scum murder a child.
I have NO RESPECT for our justice system who allow the innocent to be harmed and the perp get off scot free.So was the killer a judge or a lawyer?

[grapabeaux]

I failed to see anything about the killer at all in the story.

Remus, you seem to have an unhealthy attraction to starting threads like this. It's almost as if its more about you firing off some outrage than anything else.

[slick_trip]

161 sex offenders are registered in the area. expecting one of them to be responsible, 160 are innocent in this case.

how do you reconcile that fact? how do we allow for someone to pay their debt and return to society? is it your belief that it's only a matter of time before the remaining 160 offend again?

[DLaw911]

161 sex offenders are registered in the area. expecting one of them to be responsible, 160 are innocent in this case.

how do you reconcile that fact? how do we allow for someone to pay their debt and return to society? is it your belief that it's only a matter of time before the remaining 160 offend again?So what crimes are the 161 registered for. How many are in their 80's and 90's? Now many are there for crimes not involving children? How many are registered for crimes committed 10, 20, 30, or 40 years earlier? Maybe if you knew you would be in a better position to comment.

And don't be surprised if a family member is found to be the perp in this case since they are responsible for the vast majority of child molestations.

[slick_trip]

So what crimes are the 161 registered for. How many are in their 80's and 90's? Now many are there for crimes not involving children? How many are registered for crimes committed 10, 20, 30, or 40 years earlier? Maybe if you knew you would be in a better position to comment.

And don't be surprised if a family member is found to be the perp in this case since they are responsible for the vast majority of child molestations.

think you mistook my position.

my point was about condemning an entire group based on an action performed (assumed) by one person.

personally, i believe that child molesters are the least likely to be rehabilitated, i'm not against stricter laws and post-incarceration expectation for those convicted of this crime.

[grapabeaux]

I know this has been covered by other outlets than the link in the OP, but I didn't see anywhere where it said the girl was sexually assaulted before she was killed. The police investigated the registered sex offenders in the area, but nothing has come out that this was a rape and murder.

Unless something comes out otherwise, I'd hold off on making hasty assumptions.

[Lego-Man]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/us/23girl.html?hpw

I just about had enough of hearing how these child rapists are getting so lite sentences for molesting children till these scum murder a child.
I have NO RESPECT for our justice system who allow the innocent to be harmed and the perp get off scot free.

Your link didn't mention a suspect. i hate to go on this tangent, but what if it was a "new" offender who has yet to be caught, or what if this was a first act? How is that the fault of the lawyers or the judges?

Until it's proven that the offender is a repeat offender (and yes, I will be non-PC in admitting I believe it was, but that's another discussion), I think your ire is misplaced.

Also, every person accused of a crime is entitled to a fair trial. Is it the fault of his (her) lawyer that he (she) got one?

[grapabeaux]

Not that I like doing a tet-a-tet with dead child stories, but just today, outside of Jefferson City, Missouri, a 9-year old girl who had been missing since Wednesday night was found dead. The person of interest at this point in the case is a juvenile.

It's not necessarily the dirty old registered offenders who are the culprits in these horrible crimes.

[sircharliebrown]

IF this was a sex crime (I think we can all safely assume it was - but we don't know yet), there is a far greater chance that it was committed by someone who has never been arrested for a sex crime before.

[sircharliebrown]

Not that I like doing a tet-a-tet with dead child stories, but just today, outside of Jefferson City, Missouri, a 9-year old girl who had been missing since Wednesday night was found dead. The person of interest at this point in the case is a juvenile.

It's not necessarily the dirty old registered offenders who are the culprits in these horrible crimes.

You're right. And I don't think that makes either one of us "defenders" of sex offenders. For me personally, I just like to be grounded in reality.

[JediMindTrick]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/us/23girl.html?hpw

I just about had enough of hearing how these child rapists are getting so lite sentences for molesting children till these scum murder a child.
I have NO RESPECT for our justice system who allow the innocent to be harmed and the perp get off scot free.

Is it a full moon or something today? This is the 4th thread in a row I've clicked where the OP is grasping at imaginary straws.

[DLaw911]

think you mistook my position.

my point was about condemning an entire group based on an action performed (assumed) by one person.

personally, i believe that child molesters are the least likely to be rehabilitated, i'm not against stricter laws and post-incarceration expectation for those convicted of this crime.Sorry -- did not read you post carefully enough.

BTW, just as a side. There is nothing wrong with condemning child molesters. Their crimes are disgusting. But in the context of murder drunk drivers kill tens of thousands of people every year. Child molesters probably kill around a dozen. Yet we spend LITERALLY billions of dollars putting GPS bracelets on them, keeping them locked up for life, and what do we do about drunk drivers who are much more likely to reoffend and much more likely to cause death and injury. I'm just sayin!

[Lego-Man]

Sorry -- did not read you post carefully enough.

BTW, just as a side. There is nothing wrong with condemning child molesters. Their crimes are disgusting. But in the context of murder drunk drivers kill tens of thousands of people every year. Child molesters probably kill around a dozen. Yet we spend LITERALLY billions of dollars putting GPS bracelets on them, keeping them locked up for life, and what do we do about drunk drivers who are much more likely to reoffend and much more likely to cause death and injury. I'm just sayin!

They may kill around a dozen physically, but how many have they killed emotionally?

[JediMindTrick]

Sorry -- did not read you post carefully enough.

BTW, just as a side. There is nothing wrong with condemning child molesters. Their crimes are disgusting. But in the context of murder drunk drivers kill tens of thousands of people every year. Child molesters probably kill around a dozen. Yet we spend LITERALLY billions of dollars putting GPS bracelets on them, keeping them locked up for life, and what do we do about drunk drivers who are much more likely to reoffend and much more likely to cause death and injury. I'm just sayin!

My speciality is DUI enforcement so I certainly am not defending them but your post is misleading. The vast majority of people killed by drunk drivers are the drunk driver's themselves. That little nugget of truth is usually left out of the talking points from MADD and other such groups. And while drunk driving deaths of innocents might still outnumber that from child molesters I'm not so sure this would be the case anymore if you just talked about non dead victims of child molestation.

[grapabeaux]

They may kill around a dozen physically, but how many have they killed emotionally?

There's no such crime as "emotional murder". Victims may need therapy and the criminals should be prosecuted, but that doesn't justify overstating the charges against the perpetrators.

[KEK]

The emotional scars of being molested or being raped don't end when the act is over, it lasts a lifetime, even with the help of therapy, anti-depressants, etc. When someone takes the innocence of a child away, it is now part of the child's life experiences. Even if the child doesn't understand what happened when it did, eventually they will and they will know they were robbed of their childhood. I have a friend who was raped from the age of 6 for several years later. She is now 60 years old and is still suffering mental anguish and physical problems due to his intrusion on her small, underdeveloped body. A child at that age has an undeveloped brain to understand just how violated they were and it's up to us older citizens who can serve on a jury to put the offenders in JAIL and not have parole, or whatever has to be done to have them off the streets.

[grapabeaux]

The emotional scars of being molested or being raped don't end when the act is over, it lasts a lifetime,


I don't doubt that it does, but so do a lot of other things.

There are limits that a single act does to the human psyche that are beyond repair. Multiple sexual assaults obviously compound the harm, but even then, it's folly to believe that a child cannot recover from such a trauma.

More importantly are these two statements:

1. The fact that a child can recover from a sexual trauma doesn't diminish the harm.

2. The fact that a child was traumatized in a sexual way doesn't mean that they shouldn't be allowed to recover, even if it means a person's death fantasies for perpetrators may have to be reined in a little bit.

[gdoane]

There's no such crime as "emotional murder". Victims may need therapy and the criminals should be prosecuted, but that doesn't justify overstating the charges against the perpetrators.

How can you overstate the charges?
Can you overstate "Baby Raper?"

It's a pretty good stretch to overstate the vulgarity and offensiveness of the criminal deed.

The criminals should be executed. The victims don't need therapy half as much as they need justice.

[grapabeaux]

How can you overstate the charges?
Can you overstate "Baby Raper?"

It's a pretty good stretch to overstate the vulgarity and offensiveness of the criminal deed.

The criminals should be executed. The victims don't need therapy half as much as they need justice.

Well, if the victim is still living, I think prosecuting the perpetrator for murder would be a little inappropriate. :-)

[gdoane]

Well, if the victim is still living, I think prosecuting the perpetrator for murder would be a little inappropriate. :-)

Other crimes don't take the status of the victim into account. Robbers aren't prosecuted less for robbing rich people instead of poor people. Car thieves aren't punished less for stealing foreign cars instead of domestic vehicles. Hit and run doesn't matter if the victim was in a crosswalk or not.

The villain isn't any less of a villain for being unsuccessful. Failure doesn't make him a better guy.

[JediMindTrick]

Well, if the victim is still living, I think prosecuting the perpetrator for murder would be a little inappropriate. :-)

Heck why not. Lets victimize the victim even further. Statistically most kids who get molested get molested by either their father, their grandfather, their uncle, or their brother. By executing the molester we can really rub salt into the victims wounds with a big dose of guilt since they will blame themselves for their family member getting the chair.

[MattieV]

Sorry -- did not read you post carefully enough.

BTW, just as a side. There is nothing wrong with condemning child molesters. Their crimes are disgusting. But in the context of murder drunk drivers kill tens of thousands of people every year. Child molesters probably kill around a dozen. Yet we spend LITERALLY billions of dollars putting GPS bracelets on them, reoffend and much more likely to cause death and injury. I'm just sayin!

Your figure of child molesters killing around a dozen children a year is very low. According to Every Child Matters.org, in 2007 about 153 children were killed through child abuse and neglect in Florida, alone. Child abuse would include sexual molestation and other heinous crimes. And, crimes against children are vastly underreported. It's proven that child molesters (more accurately PEDOPHILES, not molesters) cannot be rehabilitated. In my opinion, if they kill or rape the child victim, they should pay with their lives; and if they abuse children in other ways, they should be put away for life. There's much good research on this topic online. Two responsible sources are the National Center for Prosecution of Child Abuse in Alexandria, VA and CornerHouse in Minneapolis, MN -- among others.

[grapabeaux]

It's proven that child molesters cannot be rehabilitated.

Not true. Everybody is capable of rehabilitation.

[gdoane]

Heck why not. Lets victimize the victim even further. Statistically most kids who get molested get molested by either their father, their grandfather, their uncle, or their brother. By executing the molester we can really rub salt into the victims wounds with a big dose of guilt since they will blame themselves for their family member getting the chair.

The justice is not for the victim. If it were, that would be vigilantism and unfit for a nation of laws, not men. America is a nation of laws.

The victim isn't much of a factor in the prosecution of the criminal.

We just had a case of a morgue worker raping the hell out of corpses for 15+ years.

No victims. I'd call that a victimless crime. The courts probably won't agree that the creep had no victims. http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/02/26/Prosecutor-Morgue-worker-raped-corpses/UPI-93931235701127/

Does it really matter that the victims were dead? No. I don't think it will.

The whole basis of prosecution for crime centers around "Mens Rea" or "Criminal Mind", the INTENT to commit a crime.

My mantra is this: Intent matters, and it matters a lot.

Life isn't about WHAT you do, it's about WHY you did it. If the ends justify the means, then to heck with the means anyway. I totally believe in rules but if the rules conflict with logical good intent then the rules take a back seat.

The guy who rapes dead women is a rapist. Why? Certainly not because the victims complained. 15+ years and hundreds of victims, and not one single complaint. It ain't about the victims, the guy is a rapist because he rapes, it's just that simple. It boils down to my mantra, Intent Matters And It Matters A Lot.

It ain't about the victim, it's about the crook. A bad guy is a bad guy because of his intent, not because he has victims or because he failed to complete his criminal act. He's a bad guy because Intent Matters And It Matters A Lot.

[gdoane]

Not true. Everybody is capable of rehabilitation.

You're speaking crazy talk. You've probably never met a genuinely evil person so you don't think they exist.

Your statement assumes that there is no such thing as inherent evil.

Some people are born evil. That's what they are, that's what they do and it's all they'll ever be. EVIL.

They can't be rehabilitated. They've never been habilitated in the first place.

[MattieV]

Not true. Everybody is capable of rehabilitation.

Sorry, wish you were right. But, pedophiles can't be rehabilitated. GDOANE is right.

[grapabeaux]

Sorry, wish you were right. But, pedophiles can't be rehabilitated. GDOANE is right.

If pedophiles can't be rehabilitated, then I guess nobody is a "pedophile".

It's one thing to have your belief, but to dress it up as if science proves it is not a tenable disguise.

[DLaw911]

Your figure of child molesters killing around a dozen children a year is very low. According to Every Child Matters.org, in 2007 about 153 children were killed through child abuse and neglect in Florida, alone. Child abuse would include sexual molestation and other heinous crimes. And, crimes against children are vastly underreported. It's proven that child molesters cannot be rehabilitated. In my opinion, if they kill or rape the child victim, they should pay with their lives; and if they abuse children in other ways, they should be put away for life. There's much good research on this topic online. Two responsible sources are the National Center for Prosecution of Child Abuse in Alexandria, VA and CornerHouse in Minneapolis, MN -- among others.Child abuse and neglect DOES NOT encompasss "child molestation." Who are you trying to kid (no pun intended)? Child molestation is actually not a legal term. The act of child molestation is considered LEWD act on a child. It is a specific act, the touching of any part of the body OR clothing of a child with the specific intent of sexual arousal. Child molestation can also be accomplished by mere words, but that act is rarely charged.

[DLaw911]

The emotional scars of being molested or being raped don't end when the act is over, it lasts a lifetime, even with the help of therapy, anti-depressants, etc. When someone takes the innocence of a child away, it is now part of the child's life experiences. Even if the child doesn't understand what happened when it did, eventually they will and they will know they were robbed of their childhood. I have a friend who was raped from the age of 6 for several years later. She is now 60 years old and is still suffering mental anguish and physical problems due to his intrusion on her small, underdeveloped body. A child at that age has an undeveloped brain to understand just how violated they were and it's up to us older citizens who can serve on a jury to put the offenders in JAIL and not have parole, or whatever has to be done to have them off the streets.Going back to the original premise one does not have to be a child molester to be a registered sex offender. And the act of molestation varies in degree. Naturally the more intrusive the violation, the greater the chances of a child having emotional scars. Of course this is not helped by the stigma attached to BEING molested.

Also keep in mind that the difference between consensual sex and child molestation might be only a difference of one day. In most states a child can legally consent to sexual touchings and sex acts short of intercourse the second they turn 16. The age varies by state. Not every "child molester" is a pedophile. In fact over 90% are NOT pedophiles. The crime, however, is near strict liability. If a 15 year old girl looks 16 and tells a man she 16, and he get's caught feeling her breasts, HE is legally a child molester! It does not matter if she's emotionally scarred, if she consented, if she lied.

I'm only pointing out that SOME convicted child molesters are predators who deserve to be locked away, and others are unlikely to reoffend.

And as an afterthought --- consider Tracie Lords who at 15 convinced porn movie makers she was 20 and helped sell millons of movies. EVERYONE who watched those movies was watching an act of child molestation and the movies were, essentially, child porn.

[DLaw911]

........snipped......It's proven that child molesters cannot be rehabilitated.Actually there is no such proof when you consider the minimal amount of contact needed to charge and convict a person of child molestation and the virtual EASE at which a person can believe a minor is actually older and capable of consent.

I'm sure you're thinking of rehabilitating pedophiles but they are in a class of their own. The reason they are highly likely to reoffend is due their fixated sexual attraction to VERY young children. The answer for them is not rehabilitation but, rather, control. If their sexual urges can be controlled by medication, that might be a partial solution. Unfortunately it is very difficult to get these people to develop sexual attractions to adult aged persons.

[MattieV]

Actually there is no such proof when you consider the minimal amount of contact needed to charge and convict a person of child molestation and the virtual EASE at which a person can believe a minor is actually older and capable of consent.

I'm sure you're thinking of rehabilitating pedophiles but they are in a class of their own. The reason they are highly likely to reoffend is due their fixated sexual attraction to VERY young children. The answer for them is not rehabilitation but, rather, control. If their sexual urges can be controlled by medication, that might be a partial solution. Unfortunately it is very difficult to get these people to develop sexual attractions to adult aged persons.

I believe you originally used the term "child molesters," and I responded using that term incorrectly. However, when I gave the # of children who were killed in FL in 2007 I used the words "child abuse and neglect " and also talked about pedophiles. Pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. My mistake in using the term molesters. Semantics are important.

[FidelisAdMortem]

So theres 160+ registered sex offenders that live in/around the area where this girl disappeared and they can rule out them out just like that. Hmmmm....I wonder.

[Gabby]

So theres 160+ registered sex offenders that live in/around the area where this girl disappeared and they can rule out them out just like that. Hmmmm....I wonder.

I think that 'rule them out' means that the police/FBI do not have any evidence at this time that any of them were involved. My bet is that the police/FBI will continue to keep them in mind.

There is a good possibility that this is a person who has no record. The outcome of this could be surprising. The police are not letting out any information about how she was killled, if she was sexually assaulted, etc. Time will tell.

I only hope that they do eventually find the person or persons who killed this poor child.

[DLaw911]

I believe you originally used the term "child molesters," and I responded using that term incorrectly. However, when I gave the # of children who were killed in FL in 2007 I used the words "child abuse and neglect " and also talked about pedophiles. Pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. My mistake in using the term molesters. Semantics are important.I'm no fan of child molesters. But I also know the reality of how easy it is for someone to become a registered sex offender without being a child molester.

My feelings about sex offender registration are pretty simple. There should ONLY be PUBLIC sex offender registration for sexually violent predators. All other sex offender registrations should be private and used by the police. When you have a duty (such a sex offender registration) that lasts a lifetime, you necessarily have people registered who are so old, so sick, even confined to nursing homes, that the though of having sex witha child is non-existent. I've checked the Megan's law website for my area and there are about 50 registered sex offenders living within a 2 mile radius. Not a huge number. But I note that 6 of them live in an old age retirement building. I looked at some of the others and while their dates of offense are not stated, they are pretty old. Like I said they have to registere forever unles the governor grants a pardon, and it's nmot likely that anyone is asking for one. Again, there should be some mechanism to put persons who are old and infirm, or who have ancient convicitons, on a private registration list for law enforcement only.

[grapabeaux]

DLaw, I don't disagree with much of your post, but the sex offender registries are a recent phenomenon. Are people having to register for crimes committed long ago, or are they only for offenses committed after the registry was set up?

[DLaw911]

DLaw, I don't disagree with much of your post, but the sex offender registries are a recent phenomenon. Are people having to register for crimes committed long ago, or are they only for offenses committed after the registry was set up?No - sex offender registries are nothing recent. They have been around in many, if not most states, since the beginning of the 20th century.

It was Megan's law that dictated that persons convicted of certain sex offenses shall be on a datebase available to the public. It was originally conceived of a database which was available at the local police station for a member of the public to view after signing a declaration the information would not be used to harass the registrants. It eventually went totally public. SOME states listed ALL sex offenders, including those convicted of minor misdmeanors.

[Paul31]

I hate the ones convicted and have to register for life for statutory rape, you know the ones where the victim is 17 and the perp is like 20.

[grapabeaux]

No - sex offender registries are nothing recent. They have been around in many, if not most states, since the beginning of the 20th century.

It was Megan's law that dictated that persons convicted of certain sex offenses shall be on a datebase available to the public. It was originally conceived of a database which was available at the local police station for a member of the public to view after signing a declaration the information would not be used to harass the registrants. It eventually went totally public. SOME states listed ALL sex offenders, including those convicted of minor misdmeanors.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

[sgtmac_46]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/us/23girl.html?hpw

I just about had enough of hearing how these child rapists are getting so lite sentences for molesting children till these scum murder a child.
I have NO RESPECT for our justice system who allow the innocent to be harmed and the perp get off scot free.

We actually don't have a 'justice system'.......we have a 'legal system'.

[sgtmac_46]

161 sex offenders are registered in the area. expecting one of them to be responsible, 160 are innocent in this case.

how do you reconcile that fact? how do we allow for someone to pay their debt and return to society? is it your belief that it's only a matter of time before the remaining 160 offend again?

The recidivism rate among sex offenders is FAR HIGHER than 1:161.

For child molester's it's between 30% and 50% in a four year period after being released. So try.......80.5:161

[sgtmac_46]

So what crimes are the 161 registered for. How many are in their 80's and 90's? Now many are there for crimes not involving children? How many are registered for crimes committed 10, 20, 30, or 40 years earlier? Maybe if you knew you would be in a better position to comment.

And don't be surprised if a family member is found to be the perp in this case since they are responsible for the vast majority of child molestations.

Familial acquaintances at any rate........simply because it's easier access.

But sexual molestation and child rape and murder are two related but separate areas.

[sgtmac_46]

I know this has been covered by other outlets than the link in the OP, but I didn't see anywhere where it said the girl was sexually assaulted before she was killed. The police investigated the registered sex offenders in the area, but nothing has come out that this was a rape and murder.

Unless something comes out otherwise, I'd hold off on making hasty assumptions.

Physical rape is not always a key element of a sex crime.

One can assume she didn't owe money to the mob........so the number of motives is limited to a few likelihoods. These types of incidents are often committed by sex offenders living in the area.

[sgtmac_46]

Not that I like doing a tet-a-tet with dead child stories, but just today, outside of Jefferson City, Missouri, a 9-year old girl who had been missing since Wednesday night was found dead. The person of interest at this point in the case is a juvenile.

It's not necessarily the dirty old registered offenders who are the culprits in these horrible crimes.

Sometimes it's a dirty young unregistered offender..........who if he is ever released would then be a dirty old registered offender.

Everyone starts somewhere.........the fact is that the best indicator of FUTURE BEHAVIOR is PAST BEHAVIOR!

[sgtmac_46]

IF this was a sex crime (I think we can all safely assume it was - but we don't know yet), there is a far greater chance that it was committed by someone who has never been arrested for a sex crime before.

Not really.......most sexual murders are committed by people with a history of lessor acts leading up to that act. Rapists and sexual murderers take a progression. Previous acts such as indecent exposure, alleged sexual assault, burglary, all usually are part of their progression.

These acts are usually part of a fantasy that they need to get deeper and deeper in to. It's never some whim they commit one day, they think about it, and take actions that lead them progressively further down that path.

I had a sex offender who would by little boys underwear at the store........he then would tell some neighbor kid that he bought some underwear for him and wanted him to try them on to see if they fit. It's part of a progression.

[sgtmac_46]

Sorry -- did not read you post carefully enough.

BTW, just as a side. There is nothing wrong with condemning child molesters. Their crimes are disgusting. But in the context of murder drunk drivers kill tens of thousands of people every year. Child molesters probably kill around a dozen. Yet we spend LITERALLY billions of dollars putting GPS bracelets on them, keeping them locked up for life, and what do we do about drunk drivers who are much more likely to reoffend and much more likely to cause death and injury. I'm just sayin!

Actually the number of sexual murders committed every year are in the neighborhood of several thousand. There are approximately 14,000 DWI fatalities. So the numbers are far closer than you might think.

In addition, while both deaths are horrific there is a qualifiable difference between a violence act that is perhaps avoidable, but still unintentional, and the deliberate murder of another human being.

What's further, the presumption that the damage only occurs where death results is a great stretch. I've met numerous children who, while physically surviving the actions of adult sex offenders, suffer greatly.

I find the pursuit of such animals one of the truly justifiable expenditures by the government.

[sgtmac_46]

There's no such crime as "emotional murder". Victims may need therapy and the criminals should be prosecuted, but that doesn't justify overstating the charges against the perpetrators.

A local case that a detective friend of mine worked here had a two year old girl was repeatedly raped by her mom's boyfriend to the point her vagina and anus were damaged to the point of needing surgery.

She did live, and should be physically fine, but I don't REALLY think it's POSSIBLE to 'overstate' the charges against the perpetrator.......do you?

[sgtmac_46]

Heck why not. Lets victimize the victim even further. Statistically most kids who get molested get molested by either their father, their grandfather, their uncle, or their brother. By executing the molester we can really rub salt into the victims wounds with a big dose of guilt since they will blame themselves for their family member getting the chair.

Probably better to ignore it and try to mend the relationship.

And actually MOST victims get molested by 'mom's boyfriend'.

[sgtmac_46]

Not true. Everybody is capable of rehabilitation.

Bull ****! Unless you count be used as fertilizer 'rehabilitation'........spare me the religious mantras. Some human beings are better off dead.

[sgtmac_46]

You're speaking crazy talk. You've probably never met a genuinely evil person so you don't think they exist.

Your statement assumes that there is no such thing as inherent evil.

Some people are born evil. That's what they are, that's what they do and it's all they'll ever be. EVIL.

They can't be rehabilitated. They've never been habilitated in the first place.

True enough! It's okay for the Polyanna's of the world to talk about 'nobody being beyond rehabilitation'.......they can live in their fantasy world because they've never met men who are truly despicable.

I've sat in a room with such men and listened to them justify how the 4 year old victim 'seduced them' with their willy 4 year old sexually provocative ways.

[grapabeaux]

A local case that a detective friend of mine worked here had a two year old girl was repeatedly raped by her mom's boyfriend to the point her vagina and anus were damaged to the point of needing surgery.

She did live, and should be physically fine, but I don't REALLY think it's POSSIBLE to 'overstate' the charges against the perpetrator.......do you?

If you think the perpetrator should be put to death, which I think the post I responded to believed, then yes, the charges have been overstated.

[sgtmac_46]

Child abuse and neglect DOES NOT encompasss "child molestation." Who are you trying to kid (no pun intended)? Child molestation is actually not a legal term. The act of child molestation is considered LEWD act on a child. It is a specific act, the touching of any part of the body OR clothing of a child with the specific intent of sexual arousal. Child molestation can also be accomplished by mere words, but that act is rarely charged.

Sorry, DLaw........that's just California.......it is a legal term in missouri.

Child molestation, first degree, penalties.

566.067. 1. A person commits the crime of child molestation in the first degree if he or she subjects another person who is less than fourteen years of age to sexual contact.

2. Child molestation in the first degree is a class B felony unless:

(1) The actor has previously been convicted of an offense under this chapter or in the course thereof the actor inflicts serious physical injury, displays a deadly weapon or deadly instrument in a threatening manner, or the offense is committed as part of a ritual or ceremony, in which case the crime is a class A felony; or

(2) The victim is a child less than twelve years of age and:

(a) The actor has previously been convicted of an offense under this chapter; or

(b) In the course thereof the actor inflicts serious physical injury, displays a deadly weapon or deadly instrument in a threatening manner, or if the offense is committed as part of a ritual or ceremony, in which case, the crime is a class A felony and such person shall serve his or her term of imprisonment without eligibility for probation or parole.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5660000067.HTM

[grapabeaux]

Bull ****! Unless you count be used as fertilizer 'rehabilitation'........spare me the religious mantras. Some human beings are better off dead.

You're not addressing the post. It may be that some individuals deserve death, but categorically stating that all persons with a certain label are incapable of rehabilitation is way too broad.

[sgtmac_46]

If you think the perpetrator should be put to death, which I think the post I responded to believed, then yes, the charges have been overstated.

Kind of smug aren't you..........but then it's easy to be smug commenting from the cheap seats. Dealing with the reality of it tends to smack the smug right off your face.

[sgtmac_46]

You're not addressing the post. It may be that some individuals deserve death, but categorically stating that all persons with a certain label are incapable of rehabilitation is way too broad.

A sexual preference toward children is no more curable than heterosexuality is curable.........how do you rehabilitate a sexual desire?

These are fundamentally defective human beings.........just like rabid dogs, their defect makes them a danger to those around them.

[sgtmac_46]

Actually there is no such proof when you consider the minimal amount of contact needed to charge and convict a person of child molestation and the virtual EASE at which a person can believe a minor is actually older and capable of consent.

I'm sure you're thinking of rehabilitating pedophiles but they are in a class of their own. The reason they are highly likely to reoffend is due their fixated sexual attraction to VERY young children. The answer for them is not rehabilitation but, rather, control. If their sexual urges can be controlled by medication, that might be a partial solution. Unfortunately it is very difficult to get these people to develop sexual attractions to adult aged persons.

At it's core it's impossible to redirect their preferences..........they can no more decide to change their preferences than anyone else. Sexual preferences are fixed patterns of behavior.

[sgtmac_46]

I'm no fan of child molesters. But I also know the reality of how easy it is for someone to become a registered sex offender without being a child molester.

My feelings about sex offender registration are pretty simple. There should ONLY be PUBLIC sex offender registration for sexually violent predators. All other sex offender registrations should be private and used by the police. When you have a duty (such a sex offender registration) that lasts a lifetime, you necessarily have people registered who are so old, so sick, even confined to nursing homes, that the though of having sex witha child is non-existent. I've checked the Megan's law website for my area and there are about 50 registered sex offenders living within a 2 mile radius. Not a huge number. But I note that 6 of them live in an old age retirement building. I looked at some of the others and while their dates of offense are not stated, they are pretty old. Like I said they have to registere forever unles the governor grants a pardon, and it's nmot likely that anyone is asking for one. Again, there should be some mechanism to put persons who are old and infirm, or who have ancient convicitons, on a private registration list for law enforcement only. Those are two seperate issues, of course. There are several individual classifications of 'sex offender' that I disagree with that should not be used to force registration.

The classic 'statutory rape' issue is a prime example. Having consensual sex with a 17 year old in California might be illegal, but in and of itself it doesn't really strike me as making one a 'dangerous sex offender'.

[MattieV]

Bull ****! Unless you count be used as fertilizer 'rehabilitation'........spare me the religious mantras. Some human beings are better off dead.

You're right. Some have no "human" feelings or emotions at all, and are capable of committing crimes beyond the comprehension of normal people.

[grapabeaux]

A sexual preference toward children is no more curable than heterosexuality is curable.........how do you rehabilitate a sexual desire?

The same way you rehabilitate any unwanted behavior. There's nothing mystical about sexual behavior and preference that puts it outside the realm of being changeable.

[DLaw911]

Those are two seperate issues, of course. There are several individual classifications of 'sex offender' that I disagree with that should not be used to force registration.Sarge I admit my ignorance at your point. And possibly you misunderstood mine. I never said I was opposedto sex offender registration. I would simply limit those on public databases to those deemed sexually violent predators (e.g. multiple victims, victim under the age of 14, continuous sexual abuse of a single victim, forcible sex acts, et al). Everyone else should required to register but that information would only be available to the police. And there needs to be a mechanism in place to remove people form the public data base who are no longer deemed sexually violent predators.
The classic 'statutory rape' issue is a prime example. Having consensual sex with a 17 year old in California might be illegal, but in and of itself it doesn't really strike me as making one a 'dangerous sex offender'.Statutory rape in CA is not a registerable sex offense. I cannot speak for all other states.

[DLaw911]

At it's core it's impossible to redirect their preferences..........they can no more decide to change their preferences than anyone else. Sexual preferences are fixed patterns of behavior.Sex offender crimes seem to get the headlines and the mass carnage resulting from other criminal acts such as gun accidents, domestic violence, drunk driving, take second fiddle when it comes to speeding billions to keep Big Brother's eye on sex offenders.

For politicians it's easy to score points by "getting tough" on child molesters.

Well, fine --- but you can't lock up everyone forever. The cost is too high. Some sex offender have earned their way into life without parole sentences and I have no problem with that. But for those who are on parole or who have completed parole a large majority need lifetime participation in 12-step or similar counselling programs where they get support and dedicate themselves to refrain from this activity. It's no different from alcholics and drug offenders. Some deal with it on their own, others need support, and others continue to molest children. I still believe there are medical interventions available now, or which will be available, that may help the problem.

[DLaw911]

Sorry, DLaw........that's just California.......it is a legal term in missouri.Thanks I stand corrected. But the Missouri law is much more limited than CA law which outlaws touchings of a non-sexual nature but for the purpose of sexual arousal.

Although the Missouri law does not state the requirement of sexual arousal or gratification on its face, I checked the jury instructions for Missouri and it is considered an element of offense which must be proven.

Section 566.067 Child molestation, first degree
1. A person commits the crime of child molestation in the first degree if he subjects another person who is less than twelve years of age to sexual contact.
2. Child molestation in the first degree is a class C felony unless the actor has previously been convicted of an offense under this chapter or in the course thereof the actor inflicts serious physical injury, displays a deadly weapon or deadly instrument in a threatening manner, or the offense is committed as part of a ritual or ceremony, in which case the crime is a class B felony.
Comment: Note the child molestation laws deal with sexual conduct and contact (see definitions above) rather than sexual intercourse.

Section 566.068 Child molestation, second degree
1. A person commits the crime of child molestation in the second degree if he subjects another person who is twelve or thirteen years of age to sexual contact.
2. Child molestation in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor unless the actor has previously been convicted of an offense under this chapter or in the course thereof the actor inflicts serious physical injury on any person, displays a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument in a threatening manner, or the offense is committed as part of a ritual or ceremony, in which case the crime is a class D felony.

[sgtmac_46]

Sex offender crimes seem to get the headlines and the mass carnage resulting from other criminal acts such as gun accidents, domestic violence, drunk driving, take second fiddle when it comes to speeding billions to keep Big Brother's eye on sex offenders.

For politicians it's easy to score points by "getting tough" on child molesters.

Well, fine --- but you can't lock up everyone forever. The cost is too high. Some sex offender have earned their way into life without parole sentences and I have no problem with that. But for those who are on parole or who have completed parole a large majority need lifetime participation in 12-step or similar counselling programs where they get support and dedicate themselves to refrain from this activity. It's no different from alcholics and drug offenders. Some deal with it on their own, others need support, and others continue to molest children. I still believe there are medical interventions available now, or which will be available, that may help the problem.

Intent does matter. We, as human beings, understand that there is a substantial difference between an accident and malicious evil intent. It's part and parcel of our legal system.

Moreover, human sexuality is a far more complex and ingrained part of our personality than chemical dependence. One can stop smoking, one can stop drinking........one cannot stop being heterosexual, for example. We are hardwired to procreate, and when that wiring causes us to pursue alternative methods of procreation, it's not so simple as a 12 step program.

[sgtmac_46]

The same way you rehabilitate any unwanted behavior. There's nothing mystical about sexual behavior and preference that puts it outside the realm of being changeable.

Then stop being whatever sexual preference you are..........demonstrate it for me, and get back with your results. ;)


What you FAIL to understand is that the issue is more than some 'behavior'........it is WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE! It is as much a part of them as breathing.

It's an issue I often run in to when discussing personality disorders. Many uninformed people look at personality disorders as if it is some disease to be treated.......when the REALITY is that what is called a 'personality disorder' is really the person themselves. It isn't something wrong WITH them, it IS THEM!

[sgtmac_46]

Sarge I admit my ignorance at your point. And possibly you misunderstood mine. I never said I was opposedto sex offender registration. I would simply limit those on public databases to those deemed sexually violent predators (e.g. multiple victims, victim under the age of 14, continuous sexual abuse of a single victim, forcible sex acts, et al). Everyone else should required to register but that information would only be available to the police. And there needs to be a mechanism in place to remove people form the public data base who are no longer deemed sexually violent predators.
Statutory rape in CA is not a registerable sex offense. I cannot speak for all other states. To clarify my point in that post I was agreeing with you.

As for Statutory Rape, in several states it is a registered offense. It's complicated by the fact that 'Forcible' acts involving underaged victims are often filed and prosecuted as 'Statutory rape/sodomy' acts, because it's an easier case to make, and often carries the same penalty.

So, in quite a few cases a man might have a conviction for 'Statutory Rape/Sodomy' but actually have committed forcible rape.

[grapabeaux]

Then stop being whatever sexual preference you are..........demonstrate it for me, and get back with your results. ;)


What you FAIL to understand is that the issue is more than some 'behavior'........it is WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE! It is as much a part of them as breathing.

It's an issue I often run in to when discussing personality disorders. Many uninformed people look at personality disorders as if it is some disease to be treated.......when the REALITY is that what is called a 'personality disorder' is really the person themselves. It isn't something wrong WITH them, it IS THEM!

What makes you think I spend any part of my day thinking about my sexual preference? For most people, sex is something that's defined within a relationship with one other person, not as some abstract identity they claim for themselves.

[Lego-Man]

There's no such crime as "emotional murder". Victims may need therapy and the criminals should be prosecuted, but that doesn't justify overstating the charges against the perpetrators.

I understand that. I was making a point. The person I aimed that at was wording it in such a way that the ones that were killed were the only ones that had a bad effect on them in the long run, and I addressed that by (in my own way) stating that those who went thru it were pretty much destroyed emotionally.

[JediMindTrick]

Probably better to ignore it and try to mend the relationship.



Not saying that at all but thanks for the assumption. :rolleyes:

Here's how it would go if many on this board got their way with instant executions after conviction.

Thirteen year old Sally gets molested by Dad who then gets arrested. Sally loves her Dad but is also deeply hurt and confused by why Daddy did what he did to her. Dad is then executed. Sally is now traumatized by the abuse and by the fact she now blames herself for Daddy getting executed. Sally ends up committing suicide.

Clearly we have to protect the victims by getting the molester away from them. But we also have to make sure that we don't revictimize them at a point when they are vulnerable.

People tend to think of child molesters as being the weirdo who snatches a child but you and I know that it will almost always end up being a family or household member.

[FidelisAdMortem]

Ive never seen people who commit crimes against children to be in the category of rehabiliated. Its not like stealing. To some here to even suggest they are comparable, is ****ing troubling.

[gdoane]

Not saying that at all but thanks for the assumption. :rolleyes:

Here's how it would go if many on this board got their way with instant executions after conviction.

Thirteen year old Sally gets molested by Dad who then gets arrested. Sally loves her Dad but is also deeply hurt and confused by why Daddy did what he did to her. Dad is then executed. Sally is now traumatized by the abuse and by the fact she now blames herself for Daddy getting executed. Sally ends up committing suicide.

Here's my problem with your logic.

Daddy is in prison. Every day. For the rest of Sally's life. No closure. No healing. No end to the source of the pain.

The kid could be suicidal either way, the sentence won't affect that a lick and a life sentence would likely be even worse than a death sentence due to a lack of closure.

Leaving Dad alive means a human being has 24/7/365 to think of ways to escape. Prisons are not escape proof. Only graves are.

Clearly we have to protect the victims by getting the molester away from them. But we also have to make sure that we don't revictimize them at a point when they are vulnerable.

Then closure is needed and closure is best had by execution.

People tend to think of child molesters as being the weirdo who snatches a child but you and I know that it will almost always end up being a family or household member.

That makes execution even more important because a guy who will do bad by his own kin will do bad by anybody.

[sircharliebrown]

Not saying that at all but thanks for the assumption. :rolleyes:

Here's how it would go if many on this board got their way with instant executions after conviction.

Thirteen year old Sally gets molested by Dad who then gets arrested. Sally loves her Dad but is also deeply hurt and confused by why Daddy did what he did to her. Dad is then executed. Sally is now traumatized by the abuse and by the fact she now blames herself for Daddy getting executed. Sally ends up committing suicide.

Clearly we have to protect the victims by getting the molester away from them. But we also have to make sure that we don't revictimize them at a point when they are vulnerable.

People tend to think of child molesters as being the weirdo who snatches a child but you and I know that it will almost always end up being a family or household member.

I couldn't agree with you more. Killing daddy could quite possibly compound the emotional trauma of what they are already going through. It's easy for us to understand that the child bears no fault it daddy's death, but to a child?.....the guilt would be enormous.

[DLaw911]

To clarify my point in that post I was agreeing with you.

As for Statutory Rape, in several states it is a registered offense. It's complicated by the fact that 'Forcible' acts involving underaged victims are often filed and prosecuted as 'Statutory rape/sodomy' acts, because it's an easier case to make, and often carries the same penalty.

So, in quite a few cases a man might have a conviction for 'Statutory Rape/Sodomy' but actually have committed forcible rape.I've seem many forcible rape cases kicked down to statutory rape when the complaining witness makes inconsistent statements that reflect on her credibility.

[JediMindTrick]

I've seem many forcible rape cases kicked down to statutory rape when the complaining witness makes inconsistent statements that reflect on her credibility.

Conversely I, and I'm sure Sgt Mac, have seen many cases where its a clear case of forcible rape but have it tried as a statutory rape since its easier to prove.

[JediMindTrick]

Here's my problem with your logic.

Daddy is in prison. Every day. For the rest of Sally's life. No closure. No healing. No end to the source of the pain.

The kid could be suicidal either way, the sentence won't affect that a lick and a life sentence would likely be even worse than a death sentence due to a lack of closure.

Leaving Dad alive means a human being has 24/7/365 to think of ways to escape. Prisons are not escape proof. Only graves are.



Then closure is needed and closure is best had by execution.



That makes execution even more important because a guy who will do bad by his own kin will do bad by anybody.

You and I have a completely different philosophy on crime and punishment. IMO the justice system serves the victim first and foremost and they should be the first consideration when determining punishment. It doesn't mean they are the only consideration, only the most important.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I know this has been covered by other outlets than the link in the OP, but I didn't see anywhere where it said the girl was sexually assaulted before she was killed. The police investigated the registered sex offenders in the area, but nothing has come out that this was a rape and murder.

Unless something comes out otherwise, I'd hold off on making hasty assumptions.
Precisely...

[Greyclouds]

Intent does matter. We, as human beings, understand that there is a substantial difference between an accident and malicious evil intent. It's part and parcel of our legal system.

Moreover, human sexuality is a far more complex and ingrained part of our personality than chemical dependence. One can stop smoking, one can stop drinking........one cannot stop being heterosexual, for example. We are hardwired to procreate, and when that wiring causes us to pursue alternative methods of procreation, it's not so simple as a 12 step program.

I apologize for the tangent, but human sexuality is primarily a physiological phenomenon. It's a combination of reception of primary sexual hormones, secondary sexual hormones (vasopressin, FSH, prolactin, etc) and the physiological structure of the amygdala.

Knock out one of those above factors (or overexpress one such as vasopressin) and you remove sexual impetus.

Or are you arguing that every person has sexual desires every day? I'm quite sure that there are many cases of people who lack sexual desire or have a decreased desire to have sex.

Chemical castration can significantly reduce sexual desire and often develops secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite gender in people who are compelled to take such treatments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyproterone

[Apatriot]

Sorry -- did not read you post carefully enough.

BTW, just as a side. There is nothing wrong with condemning child molesters. Their crimes are disgusting. But in the context of murder drunk drivers kill tens of thousands of people every year. Child molesters probably kill around a dozen. Yet we spend LITERALLY billions of dollars putting GPS bracelets on them, keeping them locked up for life, and what do we do about drunk drivers who are much more likely to reoffend and much more likely to cause death and injury. I'm just sayin!

Death isn't the only thing that makes their crime reprehensible. IMHO, a child probably suffers longer from child molestation than almost any other crime (besides serious child abuse).

[Apatriot]

You're speaking crazy talk. You've probably never met a genuinely evil person so you don't think they exist.

Your statement assumes that there is no such thing as inherent evil.

Some people are born evil. That's what they are, that's what they do and it's all they'll ever be. EVIL.

They can't be rehabilitated. They've never been habilitated in the first place.

I disagree that some people can be born evil--I think evil in people is made or forms in absence of propert teaching. I pretty much agree with the rest, though. There are people who are too far gone for rehabilitation.

[Remus Lupin]

Why I blame lawyers and judges for this?

Simple:
Our justice system don't give a **** about helping the victims. Defense lawyers do all they can to get child rapists and murderers off so they can go right back to doing the same thing.
The family of Jessica Lunsford, Danielle Van Dam, Polly Klass , and others all learned that the hard way.
Did I forget the family who suffered when a judge gave a child rapist in Ohio who raped two boys at gunpopint, PROBATION?
I guess that is justice. Two boys are destroyed for life, the ****bag gets to get a slap on the wrist.

The same justice system who manage to get O.J Simpson to walk free after murdering two innocent people.

I have nothing but contempt for our justice system and the scumbag lawyers and judges who run it.

[Remus Lupin]

here's my problem with your logic.

Daddy is in prison. Every day. For the rest of sally's life. No closure. No healing. No end to the source of the pain.

The kid could be suicidal either way, the sentence won't affect that a lick and a life sentence would likely be even worse than a death sentence due to a lack of closure.

Leaving dad alive means a human being has 24/7/365 to think of ways to escape. Prisons are not escape proof. Only graves are.



Then closure is needed and closure is best had by execution.



That makes execution even more important because a guy who will do bad by his own kin will do bad by anybody.

exactly!

[Greyclouds]

Why I blame lawyers and judges for this?

Simple:
Our justice system don't give a **** about helping the victims. Defense lawyers do all they can to get child rapists and murderers off so they can go right back to doing the same thing.
The family of Jessica Lunsford, Danielle Van Dam, Polly Klass , and others all learned that the hard way.
Did I forget the family who suffered when a judge gave a child rapist in Ohio who raped two boys at gunpopint, PROBATION?
I guess that is justice. Two boys are destroyed for life, the ****bag gets to get a slap on the wrist.

The same justice system who manage to get O.J Simpson to walk free after murdering two innocent people.

I have nothing but contempt for our justice system and the scumbag lawyers and judges who run it.

It's an adversarial system and it works far more effectively than any other system conceived by human beings without the larger side-effect of convicting huge swaths of innocent people (as system that assumes guilt before innocence).

The fact that the burden of proof is on the prosecution is one of the few things standing in the way of the government prosecuting you for conspiracy to commit terrorism because of your party affiliation.