Pop Quiz: Bio-Terror Strikes NYC. Do You Vaccinate?

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

Okay, hypothetical situation:

Terrorist Group X simultaneously throws a bunch of hollowed-out lightbulbs full of weaponized anthrax on the tracks of the subway in Manhattan. Dozens die; hundreds more are sick and it's spreading, because even if they sealed off the island there's still about five million people there during a workday.

Terrorist Group X promises that there are more attacks to come, in other major American cities.

In response, the government decides to give free anthrax vaccinations to the whole country (voluntarily natch). The hitch is, every projection done for this kind of widespread anthrax innoculation predicts that at least several hundred people across the country will die just from the vaccine.

So, do you take the vaccination or not?

Poll coming, with only yes and no answers.

[Joeybear23]

Nope.

I would just avoid major metropolitan areas, and watch out for guys wearing turbans and carrying around light bulbs.

[ThrowCop]

If I lived in an area that is a likely target, you bet I would take the vaccine. I doubt my podunk town is on the list of potential targets though. :lol:

[ChaosControl]

Since I live in a relatively rural location, I don't feel the need to.

[Purperov]

First we must have a floor debate on whether illegals get the vaccination. After that, if anyones still alive, yeah, vaccinate.:)

[Purperov]

I'll wait til 8PM and do what Glenn Beck tells me to do.

[jmb6]

I live in a very busy area and my wife works in downtown Boston, so yeah.

[Lego-Man]

I won't answer the poll as I feel that it is incomplete. How many would have died before this vaccine was made available. In your scenario, the damage was already done by your hypothetical attack, and I would assume that Manhattan (NYC metro area) would be cut off and isolated in quick fashion and a few people already might get into the rest of the country somehow.

If the preparation were there (which is what the training being done is for), we could assume, for the sake of argument, that officials know how to deal with and are prepared for this "lightbulb" attack. You don't think we wouldn't be warned by your "benevolent" government that this has happened?

If those who managed to not get into the NYC cutoff, officials would presumably be on the lookout for vehicles coming from the NYC area and would probably be prepared for them as well.

Anthrax acts quickly, by the time a vaccine would be ready, the attack would have run its course. Now, assuming a vaccine is ready that fast, how is it that the government was ready to distribute it so quickly?

Seems to me that if they were that prepared to stop the spread, they had the information to stop the attack.

Therefore, your poll is incomplete.

[Joeybear23]

Since I live in a relatively rural location, I don't feel the need to.

Yeh, there's probably more people in a NY subway terminal at any given time than has ever been in my whole county.

[johnrocks]

Probably so even though where I live the liklihood is small.

[ChaosControl]

Yeh, there's probably more people in a NY subway terminal at any given time than has ever been in my whole county.

I don't know how many are in a NY subway terminal, but I feel the area I live in has too big a population despite being somewhat rural. Lets see it currently is around 58k for the county. I think I'd like maybe 5k.

[Jagergeist]

I would want to but I would be too busy reading everyone here gloating about how Obama owned the attack and he needs to be impeached because it's treason.

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

I won't answer the poll as I feel that it is incomplete. How many would have died before this vaccine was made available. In your scenario, the damage was already done by your hypothetical attack, and I would assume that Manhattan (NYC metro area) would be cut off and isolated in quick fashion and a few people already might get into the rest of the country somehow.

If the preparation were there (which is what the training being done is for), we could assume, for the sake of argument, that officials know how to deal with and are prepared for this "lightbulb" attack. You don't think we wouldn't be warned by your "benevolent" government that this has happened?

If those who managed to not get into the NYC cutoff, officials would presumably be on the lookout for vehicles coming from the NYC area and would probably be prepared for them as well.

Anthrax acts quickly, by the time a vaccine would be ready, the attack would have run its course. Now, assuming a vaccine is ready that fast, how is it that the government was ready to distribute it so quickly?

Seems to me that if they were that prepared to stop the spread, they had the information to stop the attack.

Therefore, your poll is incomplete.

The response by the government that I outlined is the actual plan if an anthrax attack happens. They almost did it right after 9/11, before sanity took hold, but that's the standing plan for the CDC.

And bioweapons are notoriously unreliable, so depending on a million different factors, it could be a few hundred dead to a few thousand in the first twenty-fours hours if the anthrax was dropped at Penn Station, Columbus Circle and Wall Street at rush hour.

[Dr BloodMoney]

I got my series of shots in mid 05. Still good......

Now to answer the question, if I lived in a Mid to large metro area, I'd have myself and family receive the shots. Based on the fact that if the terrorist could pull off one attack, they could and would pull off more attacks in the near future.

[croupier101]

no.

[ThrowCop]

no.Because you believe the odds are better not getting it?

Or some other reasoning?

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

Bump.

[Ex_Spy_Guy]

Okay, hypothetical situation:

Terrorist Group X simultaneously throws a bunch of hollowed-out lightbulbs full of weaponized anthrax on the tracks of the subway in Manhattan. Dozens die; hundreds more are sick and it's spreading, because even if they sealed off the island there's still about five million people there during a workday.

Terrorist Group X promises that there are more attacks to come, in other major American cities.

In response, the government decides to give free anthrax vaccinations to the whole country (voluntarily natch). The hitch is, every projection done for this kind of widespread anthrax innoculation predicts that at least several hundred people across the country will die just from the vaccine.

So, do you take the vaccination or not?

Poll coming, with only yes and no answers.


does it ruin my chance to ride the sled?

[Ex_Spy_Guy]

i would just use the atropine and 2pam chloride i already have to scrub the wheather deck..

[MrShotShot]

I voted yes given that I live in Upstate New York and am around people who come and go to Manhatten multiple times a week.

As far as a "several hundred might die" well, that die in this country on their morning commute every day and I still get my ass up and drive to work.

[SchwartzOne]

Well ..I consider myself health but for some reason whenever I DO take a normal seasonal flu vaccine ...I get sick!
But when I don't ...and I'm around co-workers who do get sick ...I don't!
SOooo... I don't I go for any vacine plus I know in every vacine there is like 2% active virus ...at low enough level supposedly for your immune system to defeat it but get used to that virus at the same time.
However I must get the lemon of the bunch ..really good 2% robust healthy little viruses or there's more viruses in that vacinne than 2%!!!

[Vaard]

no, the attack was done by government agents to get people to take the vaccanine which cant be trusted since it is provide by the government.....

[Buffalo]

I was involved in the anthrax cleanup in DC. At the time I had my 40 hour HAZWOPER and did multiple redzone entries. One I discovered a pinhole ***** through two pairs of gloves. I had to take a Cipro course for preventative measure. I don't know about the vaccine, but that Cipro tore me up. To avoid it, yeah, I'd probably take the vaccine. But I doubt a widespread anthrax attack will ever occur.

[SFC(R)L]

if you are exposed to weaponized anthrax, you are going to die in about 48 hours.

If you insist on medical care, you will die in about 72 hours.

And you will be wishing to Christ you had just died.

[Wake-Up]

i would just use the atropine and 2pam chloride i already have to scrub the wheather deck..

Good luck with that.

Those are for nerve agents. Anthrax requires and antibiotic, preferably a fluoroquinolone.

[Dr BloodMoney]

I was involved in the anthrax cleanup in DC. At the time I had my 40 hour HAZWOPER and did multiple redzone entries. One I discovered a pinhole ***** through two pairs of gloves. I had to take a Cipro course for preventative measure. I don't know about the vaccine, but that Cipro tore me up. To avoid it, yeah, I'd probably take the vaccine. But I doubt a widespread anthrax attack will ever occur.

A strange side effect of Cipro is that it reacts strangely with, of all things, caffeine. I was on a course of Cipro, did not read the detailed interaction material, did my regular work routine that included coffee in the morning, did not sleep for over 48 hours.....Finally in desperation I read the interaction material, there in plain English was the warning about caffeine.......

http://www.drugs.com/cipro.html

Avoid caffeine while you are taking Cipro, because the medication can make the effects of caffeine stronger.

No ****....

[SFC(R)L]

I was involved in the anthrax cleanup in DC. At the time I had my 40 hour HAZWOPER and did multiple redzone entries. One I discovered a pinhole ***** through two pairs of gloves. I had to take a Cipro course for preventative measure. I don't know about the vaccine, but that Cipro tore me up. To avoid it, yeah, I'd probably take the vaccine. But I doubt a widespread anthrax attack will ever occur.

The anthrax vaccine is for blood borne (cutaneous) anthrax, not inhalation anthrax.

It offers absolutely no protection whatsoever from inhalation anthrax and is the equivalent of poison.

Those involved in perpetrating the fraud of the vaccine should, in my opinion, be publicly flogged.

[Buffalo]

A strange side effect of Cipro is that it reacts strangely with, of all things, caffeine. I was on a course of Cipro, did not read the detailed interaction material, did my regular work routine that included coffee in the morning, did not sleep for over 48 hours.....Finally in desperation I read the interaction material, there in plain English was the warning about caffeine.......

http://www.drugs.com/cipro.html



No ****....
I can attest to that. We went down and were out on third shift (they were running 24 hour entry teams with Coast Guard and Capitol police escorts) so to get through the night, lots of coffee was consumed. Holy cow. But the main issue was it tore up my gut like no other meds I had ever had. Didn't matter if I ate with it or not. That is one rough Antibiotic. Effective but rough.

[Buffalo]

The anthrax vaccine is for blood borne (cutaneous) anthrax, not inhalation anthrax.

It offers absolutely no protection whatsoever from inhalation anthrax and is the equivalent of poison.

Those involved in perpetrating the fraud of the vaccine should, in my opinion, be publicly flogged.
I don't know a lot about the vaccine. None of us were even offered it, much less took it. Just standard biohazard site medical checks. My Cipro taking was a result of the hole in my PPE. Otherwise, no antibiotics. The Marines were actually the first responders when it came to containment and cleanup. I would guess they were probably vaccinated, but I don't know for sure. I do know they had some kick ass equipment. Not that any of us were underprepared, but they had top of the line PPE.

[SFC(R)L]

I don't know a lot about the vaccine. None of us were even offered it, much less took it. Just standard biohazard site medical checks. My Cipro taking was a result of the hole in my PPE. Otherwise, no antibiotics. The Marines were actually the first responders when it came to containment and cleanup. I would guess they were probably vaccinated, but I don't know for sure. I do know they had some kick ass equipment. Not that any of us were underprepared, but they had top of the line PPE.

The vaccine is useless at point of exposure, as that's not how vaccines work.

A good idea is to not expose oneself to anthrax.

However, serious dudes like you who fix these things can only depend on your protective gear and then a serious decon after.

[Buffalo]

The vaccine is useless at point of exposure, as that's not how vaccines work.

A good idea is to not expose oneself to anthrax.

However, serious dudes like you who fix these things can only depend on your protective gear and then a serious decon after.
:) Serious dude. Funny. Realty I was a custody manager (which required the HAZWOPER course for haz waste disposal) and they needed help there because it was so quick and urgent, the Feds threw money at remediation firms. The first time I donned an scba was to enter the Supreme Court. It was pretty damn cool. They Capitol Police guy warned us not to **** around during the sample collection, cause the cameras were still operating. But yes, any biohazard response, the best defense is proper setup and PPE. Decon for that was just bleach and water.

[XTankLt]

The response by the government that I outlined is the actual plan if an anthrax attack happens. They almost did it right after 9/11, before sanity took hold, but that's the standing plan for the CDC.

And bioweapons are notoriously unreliable, so depending on a million different factors, it could be a few hundred dead to a few thousand in the first twenty-fours hours if the anthrax was dropped at Penn Station, Columbus Circle and Wall Street at rush hour.


bingo.


My answer, No.... but I would start getting out the lead sheathing for the house and food supplies.

You do know what our standard policy against a country that would use a bio-weapon against us?

[SFC(R)L]

:) Serious dude. Funny. Realty I was a custody manager (which required the HAZWOPER course for haz waste disposal) and they needed help there because it was so quick and urgent, the Feds threw money at remediation firms. The first time I donned an scba was to enter the Supreme Court. It was pretty damn cool. They Capitol Police guy warned us not to **** around during the sample collection, cause the cameras were still operating. But yes, any biohazard response, the best defense is proper setup and PPE. Decon for that was just bleach and water.

awesome

I was on the NBC Team in a unit once and I frickin hated it

[XTankLt]

The anthrax vaccine is for blood borne (cutaneous) anthrax, not inhalation anthrax.

It offers absolutely no protection whatsoever from inhalation anthrax and is the equivalent of poison.

Those involved in perpetrating the fraud of the vaccine should, in my opinion, be publicly flogged.


SFC, you do time as a 54Bravo? Or, just had a good NBC NCO?

(update, nevermind, I just saw a subsequent post.)

[LouC]

Okay, hypothetical situation:

Terrorist Group X simultaneously throws a bunch of hollowed-out lightbulbs full of weaponized anthrax on the tracks of the subway in Manhattan. Dozens die; hundreds more are sick and it's spreading, because even if they sealed off the island there's still about five million people there during a workday.

Terrorist Group X promises that there are more attacks to come, in other major American cities.

In response, the government decides to give free anthrax vaccinations to the whole country (voluntarily natch). The hitch is, every projection done for this kind of widespread anthrax innoculation predicts that at least several hundred people across the country will die just from the vaccine.

So, do you take the vaccination or not?

Poll coming, with only yes and no answers.

Under the scenario above, considering where I live and the minimal amount of exposure to people who might be minimally exposed to carriers I would not take the vaccine.

[XTankLt]

awesome

I was on the NBC Team in a unit once and I frickin hated it

What? You didn't have fun being in MOPP4 for 8 hours and do a deliberate Decon. ;)

(I was my company's NBC Officer, we did some pretty good training. I was probably not loved for that fact. :lol:)

[SFC(R)L]

SFC, you do time as a 54Bravo? Or, just had a good NBC NCO?

(update, nevermind, I just saw a subsequent post.)

Roger.

Got stuck on the NBC Team (Decon, MOPP Exchange, etc)

My views on the anthrax vaccine are from my rather extensive research into it after it killed several troops and adversely affected thousands of others.

As an example, those who have taken at least one of the shots are 3 times more likely than the control group to develop diabetes.

[SFC(R)L]

What? You didn't have fun being in MOPP4 for 8 hours and do a deliberate Decon. ;)

(I was my company's NBC Officer, we did some pretty good training. I was probably not loved for that fact. :lol:)

NO.

Being in MOPP 4 and running a vehicle decon station at Fort Hood Texas in friggin August is not exactly on my list of fun crap to do and no it ain't good training and yes, I hate your guts thank you very much

but I digress.... ;)

[fava]

Anthrax is not spread by human to human contact so it will remain in the area infected. That being the case, if I am not in the area of the attack, there is little use in vaccination and would actually cause more problems.

[Buffalo]

awesome

I was on the NBC Team in a unit once and I frickin hated it
Dragging a shop vac in level B PPE up nine flights of stairs is a lot of fun. I probably lost ten pounds from sweating that week.

[SFC(R)L]

Dragging a shop vac in level B PPE up nine flights of stairs is a lot of fun. I probably lost ten pounds from sweating that week.

sissy

;)

[Buffalo]

sissy

;)
After your August in Texas experience, I agree :)). Holy crap, talk about a sauna.

[Ex_Spy_Guy]

Good luck with that.

Those are for nerve agents. Anthrax requires and antibiotic, preferably a fluoroquinolone.


it doesnt matter....im only useful for scrubbing....

[Lego-Man]

Dragging a shop vac in level B PPE up nine flights of stairs is a lot of fun. I probably lost ten pounds from sweating that week.

Water weight. You gained it back with your next beverage.

[mtbeaches]

Can't answer...it would depend on whether I thought the treat was a real or exaggerated.

[Mountain Soldier]

Considering the anthrax vaccine is a series of five shots over a period of time, unless you live far away from the "ground zero," it won't do you any good.

[UK Glenmont]

What? You didn't have fun being in MOPP4 for 8 hours and do a deliberate Decon. ;)

(I was my company's NBC Officer, we did some pretty good training. I was probably not loved for that fact. :lol:)

we did MOPP4 for 12 hours once, i cheated (i peed and dumped the goo out of my mask, yeah i know in real life i would be dead), it was hell.

never had to process through the bunker though.

EDIT: alhorn AB, germany. i think it was called the M-17A1? gave me headaches with the two eyepieces:(

[Mountain Soldier]

awesome

I was on the NBC Team in a unit once and I frickin hated it

I served as NBC NCO for six months over in Korea. I hated it as well... the Army spent over two years training me in Korean and I was serving in a position that took three months to train (which I didn't receive).

[Mountain Soldier]

The JSLIST was just being developed - so we had several connexs full of MOPP suits, which sucked ass trying to inventory.