This happen by my house. Another Freaking attempt Honor Killing

[notluzn]

Go Figure!! Now do we see a problem in the culture of peace?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,568924,00.html?test=latestnews
Arizona Man Runs Down Daughter For Becoming 'Westernized'

Wednesday, October 21, 2009


Print PEORIA, Ariz. — Police in a Phoenix suburb are looking for a father suspected of running down his daughter because she was becoming too "Westernized" and was not living according to their traditional Iraqi values.

Police say 48-year-old Faleh Hassan Almaleki of Glendale allegedly ran his daughter down Tuesday at an Arizona Department of Economic Security parking lot in Peoria.

The victim, 20-year-old Noor Faleh Almaleki of Surprise, remains hospitalized with life-threatening injuries.

[Ex_Spy_Guy]

kick some dirt on that foo

[supreme_war_Pig]

Go Figure!! Now do we see a problem in the culture of peace?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,568924,00.html?test=latestnews
Arizona Man Runs Down Daughter For Becoming 'Westernized'

Okay, so what should we do about this?

[notluzn]

Okay, so what should we do about this?

Are you asking me?

[Ex_Spy_Guy]

Okay, so what should we do about this?


post #2

[VCaddy05]

post #2

lol

[bella-day]

Hmm, wonder why the people that do this only murder their daughters.

Is it impossible for a man to bring "shame" on the family in that culture?

[notluzn]

Funny how they are dying to leave the Country that killed their family to come here just to bring their BS here and continue it here. I say keep them from coming here unless they take 6 months of culture training of the United States.

[mobiusptc]

Funny how they are dying to leave the Country that killed their family to come here just to bring their BS here and continue it here. I say keep them from coming here unless they take 6 months of culture training of the United States.

they might not be able to fit in airplane seats with 6 month of big macs and stuffed crusts ;p

[Vaard]

"traditional iraqi values"

[RickRhetoric]

Okay, so what should we do about this?

Nothing. It's their culture. Don't be a culture snob.

[notluzn]

they might not be able to fit in airplane seats with 6 month of big macs and stuffed crusts ;plol

[pattyk]

Hmm, wonder why the people that do this only murder their daughters.

Is it impossible for a man to bring "shame" on the family in that culture?

if they are gay is one.

[JediMindTrick]

Is it any worse than christians who murder their children because they want to "pray" the disease away instead of getting the very easy treatment from the doctor (like the recent case where they tried to pray their child's diabetes away). Religious wackos exists in all religions not just Islam.

[Andrew_980]

if they are gay is one.

But that applies to far too many here too.......

[Dragon1963]

"traditional iraqi values"

Question should be which "traditional Iraqi values."

Considering how many different civilizations have existed in Iraq over the past 5000 years which set is really "traditional"???? :think:

[jeepers]

Is it any worse than christians who murder their children because they want to "pray" the disease away instead of getting the very easy treatment from the doctor (like the recent case where they tried to pray their child's diabetes away). Religious wackos exists in all religions not just Islam.

I think it's a question of numbers that do this in the world.

[notluzn]

I think it's a question of numbers that do this in the world.
Jedi has never been to an Arab country and see how they treat women.

[Dual867PowerMac]

It just so happens I'm writing a story about Rifqa Bary and there's a section on honor killings.

I don't know to whom I should submit it. Maybe I'll just create an account on a free webhost and upload it.

[drylok]

I think we focus a bit too much on WHY or HOW someone commits a crime rather than just the crime in and of itself. The guy ran her down with a car, point is he needs to be charged and prosecuted for attempted murder and the rest is gobalygoop.

By the way of what age does one have to be to aquire a CCW in AZ? If it's 18-20 then why the hell didn't this girl have a firearm on her person?

[JediMindTrick]

Jedi has never been to an Arab country and see how they treat women.

About the same way christian men used to treat women here until the government stepped in and started passing laws to stop such treatment. The great christian men of this country used to consider women chattel. Sure things are better now for most women (there are lots of women still being abused and discriminated against in fringe christian sects) but its not because the christians wanted to change, rather its because they were forced to change by the law.

The biggest difference between Christianity and Islam is that in Islamic countries the religion still controls the government. Christianity started losing control of its governments back when the U.S.A. was founded. If not for that Christians would still be committing all kinds of atrocities like they used to (Inquisitions, witch trials, burnings at the stake for heresy, etc, etc).

[Thor]

Yeah, if your daughter refuses to wear a head covering you kill her because she has "shamed the family". But your son can employ prostitutes, use illegal drugs, steal and behave like a creep, and the worst thing he'll get is a stern lecture. A culture that holds women in slightly higher esteem than bedbugs. What a wonderful thing!

[notluzn]

About the same way christian men used to treat women here until the government stepped in and started passing laws to stop such treatment. The great christian men of this country used to consider women chattel. Sure things are better now for most women (there are lots of women still being abused and discriminated against in fringe christian sects) but its not because the christians wanted to change, rather its because they were forced to change by the law.

The biggest difference between Christianity and Islam is that in Islamic countries the religion still controls the government. Christianity started losing control of its governments back when the U.S.A. was founded. If not for that Christians would still be committing all kinds of atrocities like they used to (Inquisitions, witch trials, burnings at the stake for heresy, etc, etc).


Big difference in a long run standard is that Christians can adapt and but Muslims aren't supposed to because the Koran tells them no to and it can't be changed and will never be changed within Islam. This isn't my words but the words of Muslims.

[notluzn]

This is America and Leave your Homelands Drama at the door step.

[brouski]

Is it any worse than christians who murder their children because they want to "pray" the disease away instead of getting the very easy treatment from the doctor (like the recent case where they tried to pray their child's diabetes away). Religious wackos exists in all religions not just Islam.

Yes. Running down your daughter in the street really is worse, believe it or not.

Honestly, speaking as an atheist, I'm embarrassed you would try to make that equivalence.

[brouski]

About the same way christian men used to treat women here until the government stepped in and started passing laws to stop such treatment. The great christian men of this country used to consider women chattel. Sure things are better now for most women (there are lots of women still being abused and discriminated against in fringe christian sects) but its not because the christians wanted to change, rather its because they were forced to change by the law.

The biggest difference between Christianity and Islam is that in Islamic countries the religion still controls the government. Christianity started losing control of its governments back when the U.S.A. was founded. If not for that Christians would still be committing all kinds of atrocities like they used to (Inquisitions, witch trials, burnings at the stake for heresy, etc, etc).

That's bull. Nuts will be nuts, but you can't mind that kind of blanket claim about either religion.

[JediMindTrick]

That's bull. Nuts will be nuts, but you can't mind that kind of blanket claim about either religion.

Pick up a history book and read about the Spanish Inquisition. Or about White Mans Burden. Or countless other atrocities committed in the name of the christian church (usually Catholic but not always). As christian countries moved from 3rd world status to 1st world the church lost power in the government and its atrocities were neutered. Most Islamic countries are still stuck in 2nd or 3rd world status. But as they get closer to being modernized the treatment of women gets better. Saudi Arabia will never win any awards for its treatment of women but it is much better for women there than other Islamic countries and that has everything to do with the country modernizing.

[King Cantona]

Nothing. It's their culture. Don't be a culture snob.

A lot of people on this forum seem to believe that honour killing is part of Islamic culture, I know plenty of Muslims and they are as outraged by this as you or I...

Being as I'm a Catholic I'm pretty glad that other British people didn't apply the same broad brush to the activities of the IRA during the troubles...:cool:...

[JediMindTrick]

Being as I'm a Catholic I'm pretty glad that other British people didn't apply the same broad brush to the activities of the IRA during the troubles...:cool:...

You mean all Irish aren't terrorists trying to kill each other?

[Dragon1963]

Pick up a history book and read about the Spanish Inquisition. Or about White Mans Burden. Or countless other atrocities committed in the name of the christian church (usually Catholic but not always). As christian countries moved from 3rd world status to 1st world the church lost power in the government and its atrocities were neutered. Most Islamic countries are still stuck in 2nd or 3rd world status. But as they get closer to being modernized the treatment of women gets better. Saudi Arabia will never win any awards for its treatment of women but it is much better for women there than other Islamic countries and that has everything to do with the country modernizing.

Pick that history book back up. Your blanket statements are based on stuff that almost every Christian religion has forsworn for the better part of the last 300 years and are now looked at as major mistakes. It only takes into account the workings of those in the upper echelons of power at those times. Using only the atrocities and ignoring the good works of those religions has biased you in these discussions. Don't act like Islam is any better because its done just as much bad over the centuries as any Christian religion. It has nothing to do with 2nd or 3rd world status either. It all settles on who is in charge of the religion.

[highroller]

Hmm, wonder why the people that do this only murder their daughters.

Is it impossible for a man to bring "shame" on the family in that culture?

Sure he can but he doesn't get killed. Maybe severely beaten. I can't remember.

[Antrel]

Jedi has never been to an Arab country and see how they treat women.Hi. I lived in an Arab country for four years and served a tour in Iraq. I've also lived in Muslim communities in America and have observed my Muslim father interact with his wife and my sisters. I've seen how Arab men treat their women. For the most part, overseas, women are subjugated by societal standards, none of which I agree with. However, they're not out flogging to death or running over their little girls. There are elements of the rural society that are bad, but they're hardly a statement of the overall culture of the region.

[JediMindTrick]

Pick that history book back up. Your blanket statements are based on stuff that almost every Christian religion has forsworn for the better part of the last 300 years and are now looked at as major mistakes. It only takes into account the workings of those in the upper echelons of power at those times. Using only the atrocities and ignoring the good works of those religions has biased you in these discussions. Don't act like Islam is any better because its done just as much bad over the centuries as any Christian religion. It has nothing to do with 2nd or 3rd world status either. It all settles on who is in charge of the religion.

The only reason the christian churches stopped doing this stuff is because the people rose up against them and instituted governments that were not controlled by the church. Anytime the church controls the government there will be atrocities in the name of the church. Islam still effectively controls most of the middle eastern nations and as such you see atrocities. Eventually the good muslims (I know that concept is foreign to many of you) will institute secular governments just like happened here.

And please show me where I've said Islam is any better. All I've said is that christianity has a very sorry history of terrorism, atrocity, murder, and torture all in the name of the religion.

[notluzn]

Hi. I lived in an Arab country for four years and served a tour in Iraq. I've also lived in Muslim communities in America and have observed my Muslim father interact with his wife and my sisters. I've seen how Arab men treat their women. For the most part, overseas, women are subjugated by societal standards, none of which I agree with. However, they're not out flogging to death or running over their little girls. There are elements of the rural society that are bad, but they're hardly a statement of the overall culture of the region.
Not the same because the environment is different. If those women in Iraq were becoming more westernized, then there would be an out of control honor killings going on there. Because they are kept at bay there in a hostile environment, they are less likely to suffer at the hands of their men. Huge Difference between here and there.

[traditional_woman]

Go Figure!! Now do we see a problem in the culture of peace?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,568924,00.html?test=latestnews
Arizona Man Runs Down Daughter For Becoming 'Westernized'

The way they are talking, i don't think she is going to make it:(

[Dragon1963]

The only reason the christian churches stopped doing this stuff is because the people rose up against them and instituted governments that were not controlled by the church. Anytime the church controls the government there will be atrocities in the name of the church. Islam still effectively controls most of the middle eastern nations and as such you see atrocities. Eventually the good muslims (I know that concept is foreign to many of you) will institute secular governments just like happened here.

And please show me where I've said Islam is any better. All I've said is that christianity has a very sorry history of terrorism, atrocity, murder, and torture all in the name of the religion.

All religions have that at some point. At least I don't pant all Islam with the same brush you paint Christianity.
As for what caused the shift in Christian consciousness; it was rulers like Henry VIII and the Germanic Princes who wanted to keep their money and do things their way that started it. The people didn't rise up and do anything. If you want to quote history get it right.

[JediMindTrick]

All religions have that at some point. At least I don't pant all Islam with the same brush you paint Christianity.
As for what caused the shift in Christian consciousness; it was rulers like Henry VIII and the Germanic Princes who wanted to keep their money and do things their way that started it. The people didn't rise up and do anything. If you want to quote history get it right.

Oh so people didn't flee to America to escape religious oppression by the Church of England. Then the descendants of those same people didn't form a secular government and name themselves the United States of America. Okey dokey then, please tell me exactly how and why our country was settled and how the U.S.A. came into being then.

Religion when kept private is fine. More power to those who want to practice it to themselves like the Pilgrims did. Religion is always bad though, no exceptions, when it starts controlling the government, no matter what religion it is. Your just so defensive about christianity that you can't see that all along I've merely been attacking religion when it controls the government.

[dbs944]

A lot of people on this forum seem to believe that honour killing is part of Islamic culture, I know plenty of Muslims and they are as outraged by this as you or I...

:...
Hop over to the CAIR website and read all the condemnation of this and young woman afraid to go home.

Actually, there is nothing - not the home page, the American Muslim tab or the Press Center tab.

[King Cantona]

You mean all Irish aren't terrorists trying to kill each other?

Funnily enough, no.......;)........

[Dragon1963]

Oh so people didn't flee to America to escape religious oppression by the Church of England. Then the descendants of those same people didn't form a secular government and name themselves the United States of America. Okey dokey then, please tell me exactly how and why are country was settled and how the U.S.A. came into being then.

Religion when kept private is fine. More power to those who want to practice it to themselves like the Pilgrims did. Religion is always bad though, no exceptions, when it starts controlling the government, no matter what religion it is. Your just so defensive about christianity that you can't see that all along I've merely been attacking religion when it controls the government.

The religious flight to America did not change the way religions did things. In fact those who fled the Church of England were often more strict in their religious practices than the Church of England was itself. The fact that we had early leaders smart enough to keep religion out of our government was a godsend. But it was did nothing to change the way religions practiced. Western religions changed to meet the changes in Governments where their worshipers lived, not because of what the people demanded.

To be honest I see more religious fundamentalism in the U.S. than any other Westernized nation in the world. The only places worse are places where Islam is the primary religion and tied closely with to a Government that is run by those belonging to fundamentalist sects of Islam.

[JediMindTrick]

The religious flight to America did not change the way religions did things. In fact those who fled the Church of England were often more strict in their religious practices than the Church of England was itself. The fact that we had early leaders smart enough to keep religion out of our government was a godsend. But it was did nothing to change the way religions practiced. Western religions changed to meet the changes in Governments where their worshipers lived, not because of what the people demanded.

To be honest I see more religious fundamentalism in the U.S. than any other Westernized nation in the world. The only places worse are places where Islam is the primary religion and tied closely with to a Government that is run by those belonging to fundamentalist sects of Islam.

Exactly. The people kept the religion out of the government. There are religious wackos in all religions, there always will be. Its the role of the government to stop them and forbid their wackiness when it crosses into violence. But it has to be a secular government otherwise the religious wackos always end up being the ones running the show due to their fanaticism. Violence then becomes a tool of the religion to enforce its will on others. Thats why when people came to America they knew to keep religion and government separate. As I keep saying, the big difference between christian countries and Islamic countries is that in the Islamic ones the religion still controls the government and the wackos in the religion end up rising to power. Just like they used to christian countries before they became secular. Had we not become secular I guarantee you without a doubt it would be guys like Fred Phelps running the show.

As I mentioned earlier Saudi Arabia is slowly modernizing and becoming somewhat secular. In the bigger cities women can actually have jobs and dress as they want. Of course not everyone is happy about it just like many in America weren't happy when women were given the right to vote and when women started wearing pants in public. But they'll get used to it and Islam there at least will become more civilized and the government will put down the wackos who commit violence instead of supporting them like the Taliban does.

[notluzn]

The girl died today. Islamic Honor Killing 1 and Westernized Girl 0

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

The girl died today. Islamic Honor Killing 1 and Westernized Girl 0

:pray: Oh ....Lord...very tragic ending to a tragic story. Have the media mentioned the status of the roommate this sicko ran down as well? All I've read is her injuries were not life threatening..but nothing more.

Have they caught this psycho father yet? Last I read he was still at large....

~Mysty

[chichimama]

:pray: Oh ....Lord...very tragic ending to a tragic story. Have the media mentioned the status of the roommate this sicko ran down as well? All I've read is her injuries were not life threatening..but nothing more.

Have they caught this psycho father yet? Last I read he was still at large....

~Mysty

He was caught at the airport.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570852,00.html

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

He was caught at the airport.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570852,00.html

Thanks for the link. Sounds as if he knew what he did was wrong....fled...got caught..and now has to stand before a judge and explain himself.

From a CNN link from the AP, the 48 year old woman who also was run over by this sicko has had to have spinal surgery..but is said to be doing well. it was Noor's boyfriends mother that this 'father' struck. Real hero this guy...running two woman over with a car. :doh:

~Mysty

[Vic Daring]

When you think about it there's only one solution, really.

Toss religion onto the scrapheap of history.

Takers?

[bitterclinger84]

About the same way christian men used to treat women here until the government stepped in and started passing laws to stop such treatment. The great christian men of this country used to consider women chattel. Sure things are better now for most women (there are lots of women still being abused and discriminated against in fringe christian sects) but its not because the christians wanted to change, rather its because they were forced to change by the law.

The biggest difference between Christianity and Islam is that in Islamic countries the religion still controls the government. Christianity started losing control of its governments back when the U.S.A. was founded. If not for that Christians would still be committing all kinds of atrocities like they used to (Inquisitions, witch trials, burnings at the stake for heresy, etc, etc).

When were men ever allowed to beat, kill or main their women in this country? Sure, some people turned a blind eye to domestic abuse, and that was wrong, but when has it ever been considered acceptable to do that here?

History can't be changed. But why should we sit back and say it's ok for Group A to do something just because Group B used to do it all the time??

[JediMindTrick]

History can't be changed. But why should we sit back and say it's ok for Group A to do something just because Group B used to do it all the time??

Have I suggested its ok? All I've said is that as a person who is neither christian or Islamic the difference I see between the two religions is merely a matter of years.

[bitterclinger84]

Have I suggested its ok? All I've said is that as a person who is neither christian or Islamic the difference I see between the two religions is merely a matter of years.

But those years have also brought about a significant change in thinking within one religion. How many Christian men TODAY would be ok with beating their wives?

[Dragon1963]

When you think about it there's only one solution, really.

Toss religion onto the scrapheap of history.

Takers?

Might as well scrap civilization too. Religion is and has always been one of the driving forces of civilization. Take it away and civilization does not exist.

[JediMindTrick]

But those years have also brought about a significant change in thinking within one religion. How many Christian men TODAY would be ok with beating their wives?

Read the thread, your arguing things I've already explained.

In short - Islam today is where Chrisitianity was before some very wise persons created a government that forbid church involvement. When any religion can control the government you get abuse towards women and non believers. The difference between christianity and Islam is that in Islamic countries the religion still all muddled up in the government and in christian ones its not. Christian men didn't change because they wanted to or suddenly became enlightened, they changed because the law forced them to change and began holding them accountable otherwise. It was a slow process, women have only been able to vote for about 90 years and many still want them to stay home, make babies, and make their men a sandwich (these attitudes are more prevalent amongst the deeply christian).

In closing, had the founders of our country not separated church from state we would be no different than Islam is today.

[JediMindTrick]

Might as well scrap civilization too. Religion is and has always been one of the driving forces of civilization. Take it away and civilization does not exist.

Its also been one of the driving forces of tyranny, slavery, murder, war, and brutality. For all the good its done (and there is good) its also caused bad because it brings out both the best and worst in people, often at the same time. I think human civilization has evolved culturally enough that we no longer need to make up fairy tales to explain the unexplainable (which is how every religion got its start).

[Dragon1963]

Its also been one of the driving forces of tyranny, slavery, murder, war, and brutality. For all the good its done (and there is good) its also caused bad because it brings out both the best and worst in people, often at the same time. I think human civilization has evolved culturally enough that we no longer need to make up fairy tales to explain the unexplainable (which is how every religion got its start).

Are they really fairy tales? Do you have proof that they are? Someone once said that, "Magic is just science we don't understand." Until you can give real proof that religion is all fairy tales you can not say religion is useless.

If you follow history properly you would realize that supposedly rational thought without religion is just as bad.

[JediMindTrick]

Are they really fairy tales? Do you have proof that they are? Someone once said that, "Magic is just science we don't understand." Until you can give real proof that religion is all fairy tales you can not say religion is useless.

If you follow history properly you would realize that supposedly rational thought without religion is just as bad.

You'll probably agree with me that Zeus, Odin, Ra, and countless other supreme deities are mythological and fairy tales. I just see the christian God in the same light. I find the Flying Sphagetti Monster more plausible than any of the conventional religions (not that I find the FSM at all plausible).

[notluzn]

Here is another thing you might not have known. His family helped hide him from authorities and helped him to escape. I talked to people in the know that said that there is a big underground Islamic organization that allows people that are muslim escape out of the country when commiting a horrible crime. Remember the honor killing in Texas? Yep yep yep. :whistle:

[notluzn]

You'll probably agree with me that Zeus, Odin, Ra, and countless other supreme deities are mythological and fairy tales. I just see the christian God in the same light. I find the Flying Sphagetti Monster more plausible than any of the conventional religions (not that I find the FSM at all plausible). Religion is "Having Faith in something bigger than ourselves."

[bitterclinger84]

Read the thread, your arguing things I've already explained.

In short - Islam today is where Chrisitianity was before some very wise persons created a government that forbid church involvement. When any religion can control the government you get abuse towards women and non believers. The difference between christianity and Islam is that in Islamic countries the religion still all muddled up in the government and in christian ones its not. Christian men didn't change because they wanted to or suddenly became enlightened, they changed because the law forced them to change and began holding them accountable otherwise. It was a slow process, women have only been able to vote for about 90 years and many still want them to stay home, make babies, and make their men a sandwich (these attitudes are more prevalent amongst the deeply christian).

In closing, had the founders of our country not separated church from state we would be no different than Islam is today.

So, everyone in gov't that pushed for domestic abuse laws were non-Christians?

[JediMindTrick]

So, everyone in gov't that pushed for domestic abuse laws were non-Christians?

Of course not, now your just being silly. There are many enlightened christians who can see with open eyes the atrocities that have been done and are still being done in the name of the church. They just always end up being the minority at first on any issue which will be a big change in long standing tradition. When change comes its usually done under the heel of the government forcing the change.

[artemis]

People in AZ are crazy, the heat does that to people. =)

[Dragon1963]

People in AZ are crazy, the heat does that to people. =)

Normal Arizonan's wouldn't run you over for being too Westernized. We'd run you just because. ;)

[artemis]

When I lived in AZ, I have to admit, I felt the urge to run some people over, but I think people get that anywhere.

[Dragon1963]

You'll probably agree with me that Zeus, Odin, Ra, and countless other supreme deities are mythological and fairy tales. I just see the christian God in the same light. I find the Flying Sphagetti Monster more plausible than any of the conventional religions (not that I find the FSM at all plausible).

Actually I believe most of the supreme deities were basically the same being just a different cultural bias is all. If you look closely at God as Christians see him you'll see many of the same features in Zeus, Odin, etc. It just the way each is practiced and followed. Religion tends to progress as civilization progresses. Its gone form simple nature spirits to the dominant single God most worship today. It was the more enlightened religious and lay leaders who together changed the Christian world into its current state of being. Just because the leaders of the past weren't so enlightened doesn't mean that religion is fiction or fairy tales.
Its not religion that is to blame for most of the atrocities of the past its human nature itself that is to blame. You can see it today. If you look at Christianity from its beginnings its original message is still the same as it is today. Its the men/women who are in control who cause the problems and use religion for their own gain that are the problem. And it will always be this way.

[artemis]

Actually I believe most of the supreme deities were basically the same being just a different cultural bias is all. If you look closely at God as Christians see him you'll see many of the same features in Zeus, Odin, etc. It just the way each is practiced and followed. Religion tends to progress as civilization progresses. Its gone form simple nature spirits to the dominant single God most worship today. It was the more enlightened religious and lay leaders who together changed the Christian world into its current state of being. Just because the leaders of the past weren't so enlightened doesn't mean that religion is fiction or fairy tales.
Its not religion that is to blame for most of the atrocities of the past its human nature itself that is to blame. You can see it today. If you look at Christianity from its beginnings its original message is still the same as it is today. Its the men/women who are in control who cause the problems and use religion for their own gain that are the problem. And it will always be this way.


I agree, though Women did not have a while lot of say until this past century (in most religions) that, however is another topic, for another day.

[Dragon1963]

I agree, though Women did not have a while lot of say until this past century (in most religions) that, however is another topic, for another day.

You'd be surprised at how many women actually had power back then. It was mostly behind the scenes and didn't make it into the history books.

[artemis]

You'd be surprised at how many women actually had power back then. It was mostly behind the scenes and didn't make it into the history books.

Do tell...

[Dragon1963]

Do tell...

What many do not realize is that while women were for the most part chattel in the past. Many of the most "enlightened" rulers had wives who set them on the path to that enlightenment. During the Renaissance, the women of the di Medici family were well educated and often ran the businesses of their husbands. Many of the di Medici wives were as cruel and cutthroat as their husbands. The di Medicis are the best example of power wielded behind the scenes by women I have.

[bitterclinger84]

Of course not, now your just being silly. There are many enlightened christians who can see with open eyes the atrocities that have been done and are still being done in the name of the church. They just always end up being the minority at first on any issue which will be a big change in long standing tradition. When change comes its usually done under the heel of the government forcing the change.

Which atrocities are still being done in the name of Christianity?