6-Year-Old Scout Suspended for Bringing Knife-Fork-Spoon Utensil to School

[ArmyMAJretired]

Looks like Zero Tolerance means zero common sense!


6-Year-Old Scout Suspended for Bringing Knife-Fork-Spoon Utensil to School
Monday, October 12, 2009
Fox News

Six-year-old Zachary Christie was so excited to become a Cub Scout that he brought his camping utensil to school. The tool serves as a spoon, a fork and a knife, and Zachary wanted to use it at lunch.

What Zachary didn't know was that the gizmo violated his school's zero-tolerance policy on weapons. And now the Christina School District in Newark, Del., has suspended the first grader and ordered him to attend the district's reform school for 45 days.

Zachary's parents insist their son did not intend to hurt anyone, and they are fighting to overturn the ruling.

"Zachary wears a suit and tie some days to school by his own choice because he takes school so seriously," Zachary's mother, Debbie Christie, told the New York Times. "He is not some sort of threat to his classmates."

The school district, in a statement, said rules are rules and defended its decision to suspend the boy.

"At this time, the Student Code of Conduct does not take into consideration a child's age in a Level three offense," the statement read.

"This is the first incident this year involving a student under the age of seven in possession of a dangerous instrument. Christina School District staff and the Christina Board of Education are constantly examining ways to improve policies regarding student discipline."

At a meeting with the school disciplinary committee last week, Zachary's karate instructor and his mother’s fiancé made the case for the boy's character.

And Zachary's mother has started a Web site to attract support for her son before a meeting of the school board on Tuesday.

With all the problems in school today, how about a return to common sense. take the item, call the parent, warning issued.

REFORM SCHOOL! If the kid wasn't a problem to start with, I bet the friends he makes there will screw him up.

[ArmyMAJretired]

I demand a PRESIDENTIAL PARDON!!!!!!

[Creefer]

This is what is wrong with the zero-tolerance policies as implemented. Unfortunately, it seems since there is no one left in the world with common sense or judgment, that it is all taken away.

45 day suspension for this child is asinine. 100% asinine.

[Safiel]

Unfortunately, idiocy like this is the norm rather than the exceptions in government schools. Get your kids out of them and into private or home schooling.

[EnchantedFrog]

The school apparently sees the boy as an extreme danger to their chickification efforts. Time for a dose of Ritalin.

[Samm]

"Zero Tolerance" is code for "turn off your brain."


It is also synonymous with "don't blame me; I am just following the rules." It is just one more thing that has insidiously crept into our society that is destroying our Nation.

[birddog1]

I demand a PRESIDENTIAL PARDON!!!!!!

I demand that the Cub Scouts be charged with aiding and abetting this 6 year old terrorist. Thank God attentive educators foiled his evil plot before he wiped that school off the map. What kind of horrific act is going to have to take place before we all get on board with eating utensil control. I for one think that anything stronger than a plastic spork is over kill, if you can't eat it with a spork just gnaw it off with your teeth.

[ArmyMAJretired]

I demand that the Cub Scouts be charged with aiding and abetting this 6 year old terrorist. Thank God attentive educators foiled his evil plot before he wiped that school off the map. What kind of horrific act is going to have to take place before we all get on board with eating utensil control. I for one think that anything stronger than a plastic spork is over kill, if you can't eat it with a spork just naw it off with your teeth.

They can have my spork when they pry it from my cold dead hands.

It is better to have spork and not need it than need a spork and not have it.

[birddog1]

They can have my spork when they pry it from my cold dead hands.

It is better to have spork and not need it than need a spork and not have it.

The more news I see the more I believe we are headed for the world portrayed in the movie Idiocracy.

Is it just me or does it seem as though common sense died a horrible death long ago.

[grapabeaux]

You can imagine what would happen if the school board exercises some common sense and lifts or reduces the punishment. Sometime in the future, when the school does lay down the hammer legitimately on a kid for bringing in, say, a switchblade, the school opens itself up to a lawsuit for some kind of discrimination, contending that the lighter punishment for bringing in a "dangerous" spork is no less a threat than the switchblade.

It gives the school district fewer headaches to blindly impose the penalties as if both "weapons" were equal dangers in the hands of each child.

I hate these zero-tolerance rules, but they're a symptom of a larger problem involving litigious parents and "civil rights" organizations.

[JediMindTrick]

You can imagine what would happen if the school board exercises some common sense and lifts or reduces the punishment. Sometime in the future, when the school does lay down the hammer legitimately on a kid for bringing in, say, a switchblade, the school opens itself up to a lawsuit for some kind of discrimination, contending that the lighter punishment for bringing in a "dangerous" spork is no less a threat than the switchblade.

It gives the school district fewer headaches to blindly impose the penalties as if both "weapons" were equal dangers in the hands of each child.

I hate these zero-tolerance rules, but they're a symptom of a larger problem involving litigious parents and "civil rights" organizations.

+1

Exactly only it could be that some kid brings the same type of utensil in some time in the future and actually uses it as a weapon. I'm sure the school officials realize how stupid it is to have to suspend the kid in this case but they have to for exactly the reasons you say.

[FREE DON]

OK the child brings this gizmo to school to eat with so do they not have forks spoons knifes in the cafeteria do they have pens pencils things to cut with in class yes this is ridiculous. Does this school have metal detectors and if not why not should go along with this rule,

[uncledoom]

Zero tolerance means exactly that. It's like making a rule "idiot proof". If you have even the smallest opening for someone else's interpretation, you are just looking for trouble somewhere down the line.

[psyko kat]

They can have my spork when they pry it from my cold dead hands.

It is better to have spork and not need it than need a spork and not have it.

like these,?

[jimjames418]

Zero tolerance means exactly that. It's like making a rule "idiot proof". If you have even the smallest opening for someone else's interpretation, you are just looking for trouble somewhere down the line.
There is no such thing as "idiot proof". And there are many "idiots" that can and will prove that.

[nortman]

Hey, come on, the kid is a Cub Scout. He's a member of a group that the left has deemed to be a hateful and intolerant bunch. Who knows what he might have done with his spork. He might have used it to persecute an atheist or a homosexual. Dammit, we need to watch out for the little rabble rouser! I wonder if six year old Cub Scouts with sporks have made teh DHS watch list.

[Getty Girl]

They can have my spork when they pry it from my cold dead hands.

It is better to have spork and not need it than need a spork and not have it.
:)):))

[Samm]

+1

Exactly only it could be that some kid brings the same type of utensil in some time in the future and actually uses it as a weapon. I'm sure the school officials realize how stupid it is to have to suspend the kid in this case but they have to for exactly the reasons you say.

But they do not "have to" enforce the rules without consideration of the facts. We have a "zero tolerance" for bringing weapons onto our school grounds, yet a couple of years ago when a high school kid who had been out camping and had not unloaded the equipment, which included a rifle, from the trunk of his car was "caught" (another student saw the rifle when the boy had opened his trunk to return a borrowed item to another student) with the gun. The Principal simply reprimanded him and told him to be more aware of the rule in the future. That is how it should work.

[JediMindTrick]

But they do not "have to" enforce the rules without consideration of the facts. We have a "zero tolerance" for bringing weapons onto our school grounds, yet a couple of years ago when a high school kid who had been out camping and had not unloaded the equipment, which included a rifle, from the trunk of his car was "caught" (another student saw the rifle when the boy had opened his trunk to return a borrowed item to another student) with the gun. The Principal simply reprimanded him and told him to be more aware of the rule in the future. That is how it should work.

Ok so lets say the don't suspend the six year old. A month from now a different kid is having trouble in school and wants to retaliate against a kid. He remembers that its now okay to bring these camping tools to school and does so and then stabs a kid with it. Thats the message your sending out. I agree that the six year old is getting an unfortunate deal here but the reality is that if you open up the door someone else is going to step through and use it to their advantage.

[Getty Girl]

are we getting the whole story...?
...maybe they found fava beans and a nice bottle of chianti stashed behind the bleachers...:eek:

[nortman]

are we getting the whole story...?
...maybe they found fava beans and a nice bottle of chianti stashed behind the bleachers...:eek:
Hello, Clarice. :twisted:

[Safiel]

Interesting and appropriate commentary on this latest government school madness.

October 12, 2009

For years, when asked which governmental program I would most like to see disappear, my answer has been a consistent one: the government school systems. The latest example of the institutionalized child abuse that is synonymous with government schools is that of the 6 year old boy who has been suspended from school, and now faces a 45 day sentence in reform school, for bringing his Cub Scout knife/fork/spoon camping tool to class.
School officials defended this action as an expression of a “zero tolerance” policy regarding anything that could be used as a “weapon.” “Zero tolerance” is but a euphemism for “inability to discriminate.” It being a central purpose of government schools to discourage the development of the capacity for making clear distinctions among competing ideas and values, one must quash any tendency for people to act upon selective judgments whenever the practice raises its ugly head. It used to be the highest compliment to tell another that he or she had a “discriminating” mind; it is now an accusation. If a Cub Scout eating utensil in the hands of a 6 year old is to be distinguished from a machete wielded by a distraught teenager, people – beginning with small children – will get in the habit of using their minds to make independent judgments as to other matters. The Cub Scout must take his punishment, alongside the child who offered a friend a cough-drop (contrary to a “zero tolerance” drug policy), as well as the kindergartner who kissed a classmate on the cheek and faced sexual harassment charges!
“Zero tolerance” policies war against the mind and clear thinking. If children are allowed to grow up with rational, discriminating minds, where will future school administrators be found? Worse yet, how could a political system sustain itself if people begin to question how government officials can win “peace prizes” on the same day they escalate wars?



Commentary courtesy of LRC

[DLaw911]

OK the child brings this gizmo to school to eat with so do they not have forks spoons knifes in the cafeteria do they have pens pencils things to cut with in class yes this is ridiculous. Does this school have metal detectors and if not why not should go along with this rule,Something always caused me to ponder. At the Los Angeles Criminal Courts building there is a large cafeteria for the public to eat. Prior to courthouse security people could come walking in with everything from TNT to guns and knives. In 1994 courthouse security began and you could not bring in anything close to a weapon. Lines to get in sometimes exceeded an hour and, even today, the line to get into the traffic court building in Los Angeles sometimes exceeds 2-3 hours. But back to the cafeteria where even AFTER courthouse security they still offered metal utensils including knives and forks. Nothing stoppes a person from clearing security screening, going into the cafeteria and filling their pockets with knives. Not for another 6 years, in 2000, did they switch to plastic utensils. But, still, anyone can walk into the back of the kitchen where real knives are being washes and help themselves. There is no security for people exiting the cafeteria.

[LouC]

Looks like Zero Tolerance means zero common sense!




With all the problems in school today, how about a return to common sense. take the item, call the parent, warning issued.

REFORM SCHOOL! If the kid wasn't a problem to start with, I bet the friends he makes there will screw him up.

Too bad all of these people coming to Zachery's defense and his parents didn't give a **** when that idiotic policy was adopted by the school, and never made a stink about it then.

[johnrocks]

We used to bring our shotguns to school to go hunting after class, not a kid gets a 45 day punishment for bringing a swiss army knife to school, dang!

[LouC]

There are several of this type of story going national every year, you would think parents would find out what the policy is at their kids schools.

I am so tired of people whining about being caught by the rules when it is obvious they never bothered to find out what the rules are.

[LouC]

We used to bring our shotguns to school to go hunting after class, not a kid gets a 45 day punishment for bringing a swiss army knife to school, dang!

Knee jerk laws and rules.

[johnrocks]

Knee jerk laws and rules.

yep, I agree with what your stating too, need to check on the rules, no matter how crazy they seem, they are still rules and following them can keep problems to a minimal.

[LouC]

yep, I agree with what your stating too, need to check on the rules, no matter how crazy they seem, they are still rules and following them can keep problems to a minimal.

Knee jerk laws enacted in the aftermath of a tragic event.

Rules from on high that lock those at the scene in to an inflexible action.

The rules did not prevent the problem of the knife being brought to school.


Spurred in part by the Columbine and Virginia Tech shootings, many school districts around the country adopted zero-tolerance policies on the possession of weapons on school grounds. More recently, there has been growing debate over whether the policies have gone too far.

But, based on the code of conduct for the Christina School District, where Zachary is a first grader, school officials had no choice. They had to suspend him because, “regardless of possessor’s intent,” knives are banned.

Critics contend that zero-tolerance policies like those in the Christina district have led to sharp increases in suspensions and expulsions, often putting children on the streets or in other places where their behavior only worsens, and that the policies undermine the ability of school officials to use common sense in handling minor infractions.

For Delaware, Zachary’s case is especially frustrating because last year state lawmakers tried to make disciplinary rules more flexible by giving local boards authority to, “on a case-by-case basis, modify the terms of the expulsion.”

The law was introduced after a third-grade girl was expelled for a year because her grandmother had sent a birthday cake to school, along with a knife to cut it. The teacher called the principal — but not before using the knife to cut and serve the cake.

In Zachary’s case, the state’s new law did not help because it mentions only expulsion and does not explicitly address suspensions. A revised law is being drafted to include suspensions. NYT article Click LINK (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html?_r=1&bl)

But has this young man learned the right lesson?

For Zachary, it is not school violence that has left him reluctant to return to classes.

“I just think the other kids may tease me for being in trouble,” he said, pausing before adding, “but I think the rules are what is wrong, not me.”

[AutoRacer55]

Where can I get one of those things?

[glenn54509]

IT WAS NOT A POCKETKNIFE - IT WAS CUTLERY.

While I understand zero tolerance, how many people know that this is not a picket knife, it is a silverware knife. Many of the supporters of this supension cite cub scout regulations on preventing youth his age from having pocket knives. And this boy Scout policy is a valid one. However, this is cutlery. Questions that I have are 1) does the school provide cutlery in its lunchroom and 2) what is alternative punishment/school for a six year old first grader?

Having spent thousands of hours volunteering in elemtnary schools and working with school boards, I highly doubt that there is a paid teacher to provide the needed education this child will need while he is suspended from his maintstream class. This will put him farther behind and potentially lead to additional stigma when he rejoins his class in 45 days. Further, if cutlery is provided or allowed in the lunchroom, then this "knife" does not violate the district's principles. In fact, the fork in this set is more dangerous as a poking item than the knife.

As for the superintendent's comments, that is his legal counsels statement. Do not believe for a second otherwise. Any injury to a student is a liability and thus any statement made that appears to contradict the stated/written district policies will open the district to lawsuits as long as the policy is in place.

Again, before eveyone blames the parent,look at the district circumstances. If it is like the other four school districts we have lived in the past six years, cutlery (both plastic and metal) are in use in the cafeterias.

[Samm]

Ok so lets say the don't suspend the six year old. A month from now a different kid is having trouble in school and wants to retaliate against a kid. He remembers that its now okay to bring these camping tools to school and does so and then stabs a kid with it. Thats the message your sending out. I agree that the six year old is getting an unfortunate deal here but the reality is that if you open up the door someone else is going to step through and use it to their advantage.

Do you even know what a spork is? :eh: You could stab someone with one all day long and barely draw blood.

Besides... if a kid pulled a spork on another kid in a fight he would likely get laughed right out of there and never outlive it. ;)

[Samm]

We used to bring our shotguns to school to go hunting after class, not a kid gets a 45 day punishment for bringing a swiss army knife to school, dang!

Yep... bringing your deer gun into shop class to refinish the stock and bed the barrel was damn near a tradition in my high school. And in college I brought in my 12-gauge as a prop for a speech on trap shooting... I yelled "pull" and fired off a primer as my opener to get everyone's attention. I got an A on the speech. ;)

[Samm]

Where can I get one of those things?

Google is your friend... http://www.sporks.com/Product.aspx?pid=212&catid=19

[jimjames418]

A local district imposed explusion on a 10th grade band student for having a butter knife to use as a screwdriver on her instrument. Now I don't know about you but I would much rather have a person attack me with a butter knife rather than a screwdriver.

And all those sharpened pencils make wonderful stabbing instruments.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Looks like Zero Tolerance means zero common sense!




With all the problems in school today, how about a return to common sense. take the item, call the parent, warning issued.

REFORM SCHOOL! If the kid wasn't a problem to start with, I bet the friends he makes there will screw him up.

We in the Boy Scouts of America also teach youth the proper use of rifles and shotguns, as well as archery.

[DLaw911]

We used to bring our shotguns to school to go hunting after class, not a kid gets a 45 day punishment for bringing a swiss army knife to school, dang!Must be pretty tolerant schools in your area. Here they are expelled! Period! If they are lucky they can get into an alternative school with juvenile hall delinquents.

[DLaw911]

IT WAS NOT A POCKETKNIFE - IT WAS CUTLERY.....Enough said.

[chip]

Ok so lets say the don't suspend the six year old. A month from now a different kid is having trouble in school and wants to retaliate against a kid. He remembers that its now okay to bring these camping tools to school and does so and then stabs a kid with it. Thats the message your sending out. I agree that the six year old is getting an unfortunate deal here but the reality is that if you open up the door someone else is going to step through and use it to their advantage.

:rolleyes:

If the kid wanted to retaliate he could simply wait til lunch and get the same damn knife from the cafeteria.

[jeepers]

I think the question behind my sig line has been answered.

Total morons. Total and complete, morons. A freaking six year old is going to eat lunch with his new cub scout cutlery and he's a threat?

These are the people teaching our children. Be very afraid.

...sometimes they also breed.

[Gabby]

Some poeple here seem confused about what the boy brought to school... this link as a photo of him holding it.....

http://news.aol.com/article/school-suspends-first-grade-student/713568

Here is a picture of something similar. The one the boy has looks like it as a knife about 2 inches long on it.

[sisyphus]

They can have my spork when they pry it from my cold dead hands.

It is better to have spork and not need it than need a spork and not have it.

It was lighter than trying to carry a cop.

[LouC]

It was lighter than trying to carry a cop.

:))

[nortman]

We in the Boy Scouts of America also teach youth the proper use of rifles and shotguns, as well as archery.
Shhhhhhhh

We don't want the libs to know that we encourage youth to use weapons. They already hate us, no reason to add to the list.

[nortman]

It was lighter than trying to carry a cop.

You don't need to carry a cop, just carry a bag of donuts and the cop will follow you.:rolleyes:

[LouC]

Thanks to Time magazine we know white babies are already oppressing others at 6 months, so we know at 6 years of age Zachary is bound to be even more dangerous to society, not to mention the Gay and atheist hate teaching that is indoctrinated to kids in "scouting" programs, he is a Cub Scout, we all must remember 9/11 was perpetrated by radicals like Zachary using box cutters whose blades were no longer than the blade in his "innocent" camping tool.

The little heathen should fry for this.

[MrShotShot]

Unfortunately we have no one to blame for this other than ourselves. It was the public that demanded these kinds of regulations with how we responded to the violent incidents over the past few years.

We demanded this black/white approach and this is what happens. School administrators are no longer allowed to think - it looks like a knife (which in this case it was a knife) then it is a knife. It looks like a gun, then it is a gun.

Sure, a much saner approach would be to temporarily suspend the kid and have a panel of administrators, faculty, and parents review the incident on its own merits and make a decision on a case-by-case basis. But then what happens when this kid shows up with a shotgun or a katana and starts offing his classmats? Why did no one see the "warning signs" or "connect the dots?"

Schools are between a rock and a hard place on these issues and we put them there.

[EnchantedFrog]

In Muslim countries, many kids in that age group are being led in chants of "Death To America" and getting trained in weapons and hand-to-hand combat. Here, we are smashing down kids for carrying eating utensils.

I am reminded of some of the old western movies that depict frontier towns that became infected with domineering women and pacifist men. They abhor violence and outlaw guns so when the bad guys come to town, the town is raped and pillaged and they are too weak and wimpy to do anything about it. Invariably, the weak and innocent pay the price, and their salvation only comes when a real man finally comes to town and cleans up the mess.

[WorldWatcher]

Unfortunately we have no one to blame for this other than ourselves. It was the public that demanded these kinds of regulations with how we responded to the violent incidents over the past few years.

We demanded this black/white approach and this is what happens. School administrators are no longer allowed to think - it looks like a knife (which in this case it was a knife) then it is a knife. It looks like a gun, then it is a gun.

Sure, a much saner approach would be to temporarily suspend the kid and have a panel of administrators, faculty, and parents review the incident on its own merits and make a decision on a case-by-case basis. But then what happens when this kid shows up with a shotgun or a katana and starts offing his classmats? Why did no one see the "warning signs" or "connect the dots?"

Schools are between a rock and a hard place on these issues and we put them there.


A sane post by MSS. I agree.


>>>>

[ArmyMAJretired]

Ok so lets say the don't suspend the six year old. A month from now a different kid is having trouble in school and wants to retaliate against a kid. He remembers that its now okay to bring these camping tools to school and does so and then stabs a kid with it. Thats the message your sending out. I agree that the six year old is getting an unfortunate deal here but the reality is that if you open up the door someone else is going to step through and use it to their advantage.

Then you suspend him for violating the VIOLENCE policy! Are you saying that the kid wouldn't have stabbed his target BECAUSE there was such a strict policy against having the tool? If that worked all the gun control laws would be working right now.

[drylok]

We used to bring our shotguns to school to go hunting after class, not a kid gets a 45 day punishment for bringing a swiss army knife to school, dang!

Yep us too, matter of fact we hunted on school property right behind the building with our biology teacher!

[LouC]

Yep us too, matter of fact we hunted on school property right behind the building with our biology teacher!

See that was in a different time, a time when students hunted with their biology teachers, not the time we are in now, a time when students hunt their biology teachers.

[Greyclouds]

Looks like Zero Tolerance means zero common sense!
<snip>

Yep, but it's our own fault.


Make up a knee-jerk law and you throw logic out the window. The same thing can be said of all social ills that we've tried to correct via laws.

We are absolutely shocked by school violence and shootings, but we make conditions that would suspend children for objects like nail-clippers. Safety earned? Well, you have to break quite a few little-dreams by suspending unsuspecting violators in order to do so.

There are tons of other things that SHOULD be punished, albeit with more appropriate measures than we currently afford. Approach situations with LOGIC and not emotion and you'll find a better solution.

[jeepers]

If we write policies adn they don't work, well Flash Gordon, we can write policies that change the ones that don't work. Just because we made it that way, doesn't mean that we cannot change them or that the idiots who are running the show, can't muster up enough intellectual gas to do it themselves.

Stupid people implementing stupid policy doesn't say a whole lot about our school system. How many ridiculous stories do we have to hear like this before the adults who have half a brain stand up and say "Uh, this is stupid, let's change it'...?

[merickson]

Unfortunately we have no one to blame for this other than ourselves. It was the public that demanded these kinds of regulations with how we responded to the violent incidents over the past few years.

We demanded this black/white approach and this is what happens. School administrators are no longer allowed to think - it looks like a knife (which in this case it was a knife) then it is a knife. It looks like a gun, then it is a gun.

Sure, a much saner approach would be to temporarily suspend the kid and have a panel of administrators, faculty, and parents review the incident on its own merits and make a decision on a case-by-case basis. But then what happens when this kid shows up with a shotgun or a katana and starts offing his classmats? Why did no one see the "warning signs" or "connect the dots?"

Schools are between a rock and a hard place on these issues and we put them there.Actualy, I think that a saner approach would be to give the principal authority to think.
Any twit can follow rules to the letter, we have to move back to hiring people (including rule enforcers) for their smarts and their judgement on interpreting policy rather than their ability/willingness to follow policy.

IMO, its all a piece of employers (the school district in this case) not trusting the workers to do their job.

[ArmyMAJretired]

Actualy, I think that a saner approach would be to give the principal authority to think.
Any twit can follow rules to the letter, we have to move back to hiring people (including rule enforcers) for their smarts and their judgement on interpreting policy rather than their ability/willingness to follow policy.

IMO, its all a piece of employers (the school district in this case) not trusting the workers to do their job.

I think part of it is the administrators just wanting to say "I had no choice, i vas just folloving orders!"

Some people refuse to be in the same room with a decision! It is called LEADERSHIP for a reason and too many ADMINISTRATORS lack it!

[Momtosonage7]

I agree with the school. No matter how you dress it up (in this case with a spoon and fork) it is still a knife.

[RTchoke]

Must be pretty tolerant schools in your area. Here they are expelled! Period! If they are lucky they can get into an alternative school with juvenile hall delinquents.

Heck, if you didn't have a gun rack with some sort of firearm in it you were looked at funny. ;) You went hunting before school and many kids had their rifles in their trucks. It was the norm.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I agree with the school. No matter how you dress it up (in this case with a spoon and fork) it is still a knife.

So what?

If he has a Whittlin' Chip, he's been trained and qualified in it's use.

Wait'll he's 11 and we start teaching him how to use a saw, a hatchet and an axe.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I'm just....:eek::eek:...sitting here shaking my head at the complete idiocy of this story.

A few points (from reading all your posts) to make clear just how stupid school policies have become...

Basic Classroom Tools:
1. Pencils....oh yeah...they stab, draw blood and can take an eye out.

2. Dry Erase Markers...Snuffing anyone? Drugs anyone? Make ya high as a kite if you smell it long enough.

3. Scissors...even the rounded tipped ones can be dismantled by a deranged little maniac and used to stab their classmates.

4. Book Bags....these little beauties heft a nice punch with ten pound to 40 pounds of books in it. Enough to drop someone on their arse if hit in the back or head with it.

5. Chairs...yup...the things you sit on...whack someone up side the head WWF style and see how fast a chair become a weapon under this auspice of Zero Tolerance. :rolleyes:

6. Staplers...oh god....in the hands of a kid who opens the face up..can and does staple anyone they can reach...more funny then harmful..but still..if it draws blood or can draw blood it's a weapon right? :rolleyes:

7. Books...yup...like English or History books...kinda heavy...packs a nice punch when used upside another child's head....so we have to ban any books that weigh a certain poundage? Hmmmm....

8. Bathrooms/Toliets.....can still hold a smaller kid face down for a swirly. A kid could technically drown right?...so out go all the bathroom facilities right? :rolleyes: (man this is really getting stupid)

9. Playground equipment....some of those big red balls pack a real punch when thrown into a kids gut...oh lord say it's ain't so...big red balls are weapons! eeeeekkkkkk (:rolleyes:)

10. Lunchroom...trays, sporks, aluminum cans or plastic bottles. All relativly normal items right? Tray, smacked in the face..will/can break a nose. Sporks? Not so innocent..can be made/shaved into a sharp items like a pencil...shank anyone? Aluminum or plastic bottles can be filled with water or sand and hurled at someone...does some damage.

All normal items...and under the right circumstances can be made into something that could hurt another child. Yeah..k...and is that happening? No. 5,6,7 year olds aren't James frikken Bond. :rolleyes: Kids are kids. I believe intent, not material should be the deciding factor in cases such as our little cub scout here in the OP.

Oh..and for those of you who say the parents should have stood up and helped mold these policies...your dreaming! School Boards after the Columbine incident all adopted pretty closely to the new 'zero tolerance' policies that almost all 50 states adopted. Many families were not even notified of these meetings to adopt these 'zero tolerance' policies. Why? Districts didn't want to have resistance to what they 'knew' would 'save' the children...including idea's from their dumb parents. Nanny State anyone?

The only way now to change any of these policies is enmass parents bombarding school board meetings...pray you don't get removed for disruption..and keep at it year after year after year. Enough of these really stupid cases of kids being punished for not action but for materials found in everyday situations..and eventually the public will have to be heard on the topic. Until then...all one can do is bring up the facts, bombard the school boards with useless litigation..and hold their feet to the fire every step of the way. :evil:


~Mysty

[Mojotiger]

Sporks don't kill people. People kill people.

[GA_LP]

So, they think that this cutlery set was a weapon? Just to be sarcastic, what about Nature's cutlery every human possesses - their teeth? You can do a lot of damage with a bite. Under this policy, all the children should be suspended and their teeth pulled - makes as much sense as this suspension.

What happened to that most important element of action - intent? In general, to charge someone with a crime, you must be able to prove criminal intent and this kid had no intent to bring a weapon. How many cafeterias still use metal utensils? As Dlaw said, they still have REAL knives in the kitchen, so shouldn't the school be removing them as well?

[Apatriot]

Ok so lets say the don't suspend the six year old. A month from now a different kid is having trouble in school and wants to retaliate against a kid. He remembers that its now okay to bring these camping tools to school and does so and then stabs a kid with it. Thats the message your sending out. I agree that the six year old is getting an unfortunate deal here but the reality is that if you open up the door someone else is going to step through and use it to their advantage.

Then have the kid be in some type of trouble. Give him detention, or lose recess, not be put in reform school. Ironically, in education classes you learn about using appopriate levels of punishment for the misbehavior. This is not a case of appropriate levels of punishment.

[County Lawman]

Must be pretty tolerant schools in your area. Here they are expelled! Period! If they are lucky they can get into an alternative school with juvenile hall delinquents.


I believe he's speaking of a time before mass hysteria took over the minds of our "educators".

I carried a lock blade Buck knife on my belt in Jr High and High School....never a problem. I carried a three blade Old Timer pocket knife from about 4th grade and played mumblety peg at recess...never a problem. We traded knives in study hall.....never a problem.

Deer season in high school, had a 30-30 in my vehicle. Turkey Season, had a 12 gauge.

No cuttings, no shootings, no mass murders.

This has been going on for at least 10 years. Educators see a boogey man in everything.

When I was school and you had a fight, generally coach or the assistant principal would smack your heads together and frog walk you to the office for a butt chewing and the imposition of Saturday School. Then it was over.

Not so today.....now the school calls law enforcement, not just the high school, not just the Jr High, Elementary schools call too.....it's freakin amazing.

[Samm]

Some poeple here seem confused about what the boy brought to school... this link as a photo of him holding it.....

http://news.aol.com/article/school-suspends-first-grade-student/713568

Here is a picture of something similar. The one the boy has looks like it as a knife about 2 inches long on it.

Yes... thanks. I saw a picture of it on the news last night. The initial news stories described it as a three-utensil tool... i.e. a spork.

That puts a little more behind the school's reaction to the tool itself, but it still does not support the punishment. 45 days in "reform school" for this kid is absurd. If I were those parents I would never let him go there... it will do irreparable damage to their child.

[Safiel]

Yes... thanks. I saw a picture of it on the news last night. The initial news stories described it as a three-utensil tool... i.e. a spork.

That puts a little more behind the school's reaction to the tool itself, but it still does not support the punishment. 45 days in "reform school" for this kid is absurd. If I were those parents I would never let him go there... it will do irreparable damage to their child.

Agreed. They should immediately <and preferably PERMANENTLY> pull their kid from the deranged government school system and home school him.

[Apatriot]

So what?

If he has a Whittlin' Chip, he's been trained and qualified in it's use.

Wait'll he's 11 and we start teaching him how to use a saw, a hatchet and an axe.


Just to be technical, you can't earn a Whittlin' Chip at age 6. You can't earn a Whittlin' Chip until you are a Bear Scout, at age 8.

[ArmyMAJretired]

Then have the kid be in some type of trouble. Give him detention, or lose recess, not be put in reform school. Ironically, in education classes you learn about using appopriate levels of punishment for the misbehavior. This is not a case of appropriate levels of punishment.

Overkill, like using a bazooka to kill a mosquito!

Like pole vaulting over mouse turds.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Just to be technical, you can't earn a Whittlin' Chip at age 6. You can't earn a Whittlin' Chip until you are a Bear Scout, at age 8.

True.

But maybe the kid's a prodigy. Or maybe, his pack is playing free and loose with the rules. I've seen it happen.

[jeepers]

True.

But maybe the kid's a prodigy. Or maybe, his pack is playing free and loose with the rules. I've seen it happen.


He's holding up camping eating utensils, not a pocket knife.

[JediMindTrick]

Ruh Roh! Wannabe outragers are going to be disappointed. The school board at their normal meeting has repealed the kids suspension. He's already served part of it but is going to be allowed back in school tomorrow.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33289924/ns/today-today_people/

On to the next issue to get all hot and bothered about.

How about this one. A man killed a fish and got two years probation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33300456/ns/us_news-weird_news/

[jeepers]

Wannabe outragers are going to be disappointed.

Yeah, there is no real outrage in sending a six year old to REFORM SCHOOL for bringing in cub scout eating untensils. None at all.

You'd be singing a totally different tune if it were your six year old. Your harmless little innocent bunny going to hang out with potentially out of control kids. Yeah, that is no big deal at all.

You'd be screaming hell no until your lungs fell out.

[jeepers]

On Tuesday night the school board made a hasty change to its code of conduct. The seven-member board voted unanimously to reduce the punishment for kindergartners and first-graders who bring weapons to school or commit other violent offenses to a suspension ranging from three to five days.


They still don't have it right. Is there a delineation with objects? Not all knives are 'weapons'.

A Swiss army knife, even carried by an adult is not a 'weapon'. IT'S A TOOL. It's never carried as a 'weapon'. By the same token, that is like saying that anything pointy can be called a weapon. This would include all of those dangerous PENCILS that kindergarteners carry.

Now if they're still not comfortable with it, they could have a policy of 'confiscation' because this object isn't necessary to be used during the course of the school day. LIke they would confiscate things like toys or iPods.

I'll say it again, our schools lack common sense becuase no one wants to have to THINK about what they're doing. They write these policies becuase they don't trust themselves to have the intellectual capacity to deal with small children.

[JediMindTrick]

They still don't have it right. Is there a delineation with objects? Not all knives are 'weapons'.

A Swiss army knife, even carried by an adult is not a 'weapon'. IT'S A TOOL. It's never carried as a 'weapon'. By the same token, that is like saying that anything pointy can be called a weapon. This would include all of those dangerous PENCILS that kindergarteners carry.

Now if they're still not comfortable with it, they could have a policy of 'confiscation' because this object isn't necessary to be used during the course of the school day. LIke they would confiscate things like toys or iPods.

I'll say it again, our schools lack common sense becuase no one wants to have to THINK about what they're doing. They write these policies becuase they don't trust themselves to have the intellectual capacity to deal with small children.

I'll bet this TOOL would hurt like hell if someone stabbed you with the TOOL blade on it. If you want to argue that a six year old shouldn't have been suspended then do so by all means (if you note my posts earlier in the thread you'll see that I obviously felt it was silly but unfortunately necessary) but lets not be dumb and pretend its anything but a knife. Calling it a TOOL is like calling my taser a flashlight because it has one of those attached to it. Or calling a rifle binoculars because it has a scope. It may have other functions but it is a knife first and foremost thus the reason its called a Swiss Army KNIFE.

[jeepers]

I'll bet this TOOL would hurt like hell if someone stabbed you with the TOOL blade on it. If you want to argue that a six year old shouldn't have been suspended then do so by all means (if you note my posts earlier in the thread you'll see that I obviously felt it was silly but unfortunately necessary) but lets not be dumb and pretend its anything but a knife. Calling it a TOOL is like calling my taser a flashlight because it has one of those attached to it. Or calling a rifle binoculars because it has a scope. It may have other functions but it is a knife first and foremost thus the reason its called a Swiss Army KNIFE.

There is more than one kind. What kind do you think that a six year old Cub Scout is going to have? Becuase the discussion is about that. And it's exactly what I'm talking about. He brought it to EAT HIS LUNCH.

What is 'dumb' is to take a six year old with camping utensils, utilizing them as such and treating em like a teenaged gang banger with a switchblade.

Btw, hyperbole much? Do you perceive this three foot tall person as a threat to himself and others? Even if his swiss army 'knife' was twice the size?

You could pick him up by the collar with his feet dangling...

Six year olds have also been known to sock another kid on the playground, wonk someone with a lunch bag, throw food, occasiionally wet their pants, and cry for their Mommas.

Non-age adjusted rules and standards are for those who choose not to think.

Btw, the worst kid inflicted injury I ever got was from my then two year old who chucked a sippy cup full of juice at my face because he was mad. Gave me a fat lip. Or the harmonica chucked at my head...then again there was that videotape incident...

Better make outlaws of two year olds with juice cups. Someone might get really hurt.

[ArmyMAJretired]

Ruh Roh! Wannabe outragers are going to be disappointed. The school board at their normal meeting has repealed the kids suspension. He's already served part of it but is going to be allowed back in school tomorrow.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33289924/ns/today-today_people/

On to the next issue to get all hot and bothered about.

How about this one. A man killed a fish and got two years probation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33300456/ns/us_news-weird_news/

A people, united will never be defeated.

Who here thinks that if this story hadn't gotten national attention that the school board would have acted?

They were rightfully embarrased to correct a flawed policy.

[Greyclouds]

There is more than one kind. What kind do you think that a six year old Cub Scout is going to have? Becuase the discussion is about that. And it's exactly what I'm talking about. He brought it to EAT HIS LUNCH.

What is 'dumb' is to take a six year old with camping utensils, utilizing them as such and treating em like a teenaged gang banger with a switchblade.

Btw, hyperbole much? Do you perceive this three foot tall person as a threat to himself and others? Even if his swiss army 'knife' was twice the size?

You could pick him up by the collar with his feet dangling...

Six year olds have also been known to sock another kid on the playground, wonk someone with a lunch bag, throw food, occasiionally wet their pants, and cry for their Mommas.

Non-age adjusted rules and standards are for those who choose not to think.

Btw, the worst kid inflicted injury I ever got was from my then two year old who chucked a sippy cup full of juice at my face because he was mad. Gave me a fat lip. Or the harmonica chucked at my head...then again there was that videotape incident...

Better make outlaws of two year olds with juice cups. Someone might get really hurt.

While I agree with you that the punishment is far too intensive for these two instances with the Boy Scouts (I am an Eagle Scout myself), I still believe that these children should have been given warnings about their behavior and told to modify it.

Bringing knives to school of any variety is contentious stuff. Even if that knife is a butter-knife, it could make for rumors that disrupt the general welfare of the social aspects of the school system.

Zero tolerance is a faulty, knee-jerk process, yes. Extra tolerance policies are just begging to be circumvented by loop-holes. "I just bought the knife to school to use for my food. I didn't mean to threaten that bully with it; my intent was for use with food!"

[LouC]

I will give the little heathen props for not claiming the "camping tool" wasn't his, and for not saying that it belonged to a friend who asked him to hold it for him, a friend he didn't know the name of, you know, or saying that it was his aunt's "camping tool" and she let him borrow it, yeah that aunt he can't member her name neither, but she gives him her "camping tools".

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Ruh Roh! Wannabe outragers are going to be disappointed. The school board at their normal meeting has repealed the kids suspension. He's already served part of it but is going to be allowed back in school tomorrow.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33289924/ns/today-today_people/

On to the next issue to get all hot and bothered about.

How about this one. A man killed a fish and got two years probation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33300456/ns/us_news-weird_news/

wanna be outragers? Are you serious? :rolleyes: This story brought to light the very real 'flawed' supposed Zero Tolerance laws enacted over the Columbine incident. No faux outrage here....just plain old fashioned outrage that common sense is rare and almost extinct within our learning institutions.

and before anyone says it...not everyone can afford private school. 6,500 to 8.500 a year per student is steep for any family that doesn't make a six figure income. Home school? Sure..why not...except it's only allowed under the auspices of the states you live in and their standards.

Common sense is cheap...in fact, it's free. Applied correctly, most of our societal issues would be taken care of imo. But noooo...can't have common sense in a place such as a public school can we? "Think of the children" hysterics usually overtake any form of common sense. That's what we should be outraged over...and do something about. Now you've got a whole new kettle of fish to fry....

Good luck with that btw...25 years within PTA trying to promote healthy change and parental based responsibility...schools don't like that..districts don't like that..getting a school board or district to change is like asking the mountain to come to Mohamed ;). thank god for the national press who can exert pressure a mere community can not.

~Mysty

[NascarGirl2448]

What's next are they only gonna let kids eat finger foods in school? :rolleyes:

[Samm]

Ruh Roh! Wannabe outragers are going to be disappointed. The school board at their normal meeting has repealed the kids suspension. He's already served part of it but is going to be allowed back in school tomorrow.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33289924/ns/today-today_people/

On to the next issue to get all hot and bothered about.

How about this one. A man killed a fish and got two years probation.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33300456/ns/us_news-weird_news/

Did you miss this part of that story?

When Harris tried to leave, Fite shoved her against a wall, grabbed her hair and tossed her against a bathtub.

[See It Clearly]

LMAO!:)):)):)):))

The little guy was PUNISHED for being environmentaly friendly.

Where are all the klimate kooks raising hell on this one? What, no money to be made for your hoax on this story?

The little guy was bringing a reusable utensil to eat his luch instead of the disposable ones that are clogging our landfills for BILLIONS of years :((:((:((:(( and he gets punished for it.

[jeepers]

While I agree with you that the punishment is far too intensive for these two instances with the Boy Scouts (I am an Eagle Scout myself), I still believe that these children should have been given warnings about their behavior and told to modify it.

Bringing knives to school of any variety is contentious stuff. Even if that knife is a butter-knife, it could make for rumors that disrupt the general welfare of the social aspects of the school system.

Zero tolerance is a faulty, knee-jerk process, yes. Extra tolerance policies are just begging to be circumvented by loop-holes. "I just bought the knife to school to use for my food. I didn't mean to threaten that bully with it; my intent was for use with food!"


I can absolutely get behind warning a kid about how something could be 'taken wrong', I've done it myself.

However, to not have age adjusted, common sense policies, based upon the developmental level and understanding of the children in question, is just bad policy in my eyes.

Becuase this is a venue where people are literally educated to deal with the particular age groups. They're schooled in child development, yet they create moronic policies that show no acknowledgement of that. To not know is ridiculous. It's their main function as a career. It would be like cops not trained in the law.

Trained to work with children, yet their policies don't reflect the abilities and understanding of the children that they're responsible for. Considering that they're in loco parentis, that is a bit disconcerting. I expect at the very least, common sense understanding of the age groups, let alone the extensive training that they get.

College degrees in education are more than reading, writing and arithmetic.

[angelicmadrigal]

The little guy was bringing a reusable utensil to eat his luch instead of the disposable ones that are clogging our landfills for BILLIONS of years :((:((:((:(( and he gets punished for it.

Plenty of my preschoolers bring reusable eating utensils (metal spoons, forks, sporks) etc.... that aren't attatched to items prhibited in our school code. Just pointing out the ridiculousness of the whole argument.

[See It Clearly]

Plenty of my preschoolers bring reusable eating utensils (metal spoons, forks, sporks) etc.... that aren't attatched to items prhibited in our school code. Just pointing out the ridiculousness of the whole argument.
Not an argument, an observation.

I hope that there are people at your school that have enough common sense to deal with the little savages who beligerantly defy the rules and bring something prohibited.

[merickson]

I think part of it is the administrators just wanting to say "I had no choice, i vas just folloving orders!"

Some people refuse to be in the same room with a decision! It is called LEADERSHIP for a reason and too many ADMINISTRATORS lack it!School boards took authority away from administartors, instituting 0 tolerance policies about all the nanny issues (knives, drugs (incl. Midol), peanuts).

The question in my mind is are we willing to accept the results of bad decisions by empowered administrators in order to eliminate the stupid decsisions by by-the-book administrators.

[jeepers]

Not an argument, an observation.

I hope that there are people at your school that have enough common sense to deal with the little savages who beligerantly defy the rules and bring something prohibited.

Oh what would that be? Bring back the public stocks and throw tomatoes at them in the town square?

:))

[Apatriot]

School boards took authority away from administartors, instituting 0 tolerance policies about all the nanny issues (knives, drugs (incl. Midol), peanuts).

The question in my mind is are we willing to accept the results of bad decisions by empowered administrators in order to eliminate the stupid decsisions by by-the-book administrators.

I am. As the old saying goes, it's better to let 10 guilty men go free than to imprison one innocent man.

[Greyclouds]

I can absolutely get behind warning a kid about how something could be 'taken wrong', I've done it myself.

However, to not have age adjusted, common sense policies, based upon the developmental level and understanding of the children in question, is just bad policy in my eyes.

Like it or not, we have a zero-tolerance society. Sadly that has continued to manifest itself in our school system, where we end little lives before they begin.

Also, we are returning to a colonial-era concept that views children as "miniature adults" with full sets of responsibilities and expected traits that do not belie their age.


Becuase this is a venue where people are literally educated to deal with the particular age groups. They're schooled in child development, yet they create moronic policies that show no acknowledgement of that. To not know is ridiculous. It's their main function as a career. It would be like cops not trained in the law.

Trained to work with children, yet their policies don't reflect the abilities and understanding of the children that they're responsible for. Considering that they're in loco parentis, that is a bit disconcerting. I expect at the very least, common sense understanding of the age groups, let alone the extensive training that they get.

College degrees in education are more than reading, writing and arithmetic.

The policies were likely not made by people with this training. Instead they were likely made by other parents voicing their opinions, scared out of their minds at the rampaging school shootings that we have. Logic evades everyone at those moments.

If you were told to do something by your employer or risk sanctions/unemployment, would you do it despite the fact that it defied logic? In this economy?

[jeepers]

It's bigger than that. It's bigger than 'do you allow local districts to make decisions about peanuts or shall their supervisors decide about peanuts'...

It's really "do you employ adults that actually have to THINK for a living, or do you create draconian policies that make it so that any idiot can do this job, and therefore, no one has to use their gray matter?'

Seriously, anyone that can look at a knife used for lunch and call it a weapon when they KNOW that the kid isn't a) using it as a weapon or b) is going to use it as a weapon, is a danger to themselves and others more than the kid with the eating utensil. If they cannot be trusted that far, why do they have the job?

It's literally saying "I will ignore common sense and what my eyes/ears and intellectual capability is telling me. I will avoid all responsiblity for my judgement. Hell, I will avoid all judgements at all. that way I can hide behind rules and pretend that I am just following directions like someone making widgits on an assemblyline'.

And furthermore, I will will blame a blameless kid for my lack of willingness to take my place in society as an adult.

Yep, it's always about shoving blame onto someone else. But doing it to KIDS is beyond the pale. Making a kid so responsible so that adults don't have to be. INstead of adults teaching children, it's children follow the endless rules so that we don't have to do our jobs.

[jeepers]

Like it or not, we have a zero-tolerance society. Sadly that has continued to manifest itself in our school system, where we end little lives before they begin.

Also, we are returning to a colonial-era concept that views children as "miniature adults" with full sets of responsibilities and expected traits that do not belie their age.



The policies were likely not made by people with this training. Instead they were likely made by other parents voicing their opinions, scared out of their minds at the rampaging school shootings that we have. Logic evades everyone at those moments.

If you were told to do something by your employer or risk sanctions/unemployment, would you do it despite the fact that it defied logic? In this economy?


That's not the only solution. The real solution is for everyone involved to stand up and say cut the crap and have adult expectations for the adults and childlike expectations for children.

I'm not asking for a single adult to say 'uhhhh', but that would be great. Imagine if one administrator stood up and said 'this is pure unadulterated crap and I need the help of parents to change the system'.

I'm really asking for society to look at themselves and cut their own crap. One huge collective crap cutting party. Stand up, do the right thing by our kids.

[Apatriot]

Like it or not, we have a zero-tolerance society. Sadly that has continued to manifest itself in our school system, where we end little lives before they begin.
But we don't have a zero tolerance society outside of the school system. I can't think of a single area where we do.

Also, we are returning to a colonial-era concept that views children as "miniature adults" with full sets of responsibilities and expected traits that do not belie their age.



The policies were likely not made by people with this training. Instead they were likely made by other parents voicing their opinions, scared out of their minds at the rampaging school shootings that we have. Logic evades everyone at those moments.

No, these decisions are not being forced by panicked parents, IMHO. These decisions are made by school administrators who have been backed to the wall by parents for not being tough enough in some cases, but too tough in others. The answer to this is always be tough.

If you were told to do something by your employer or risk sanctions/unemployment, would you do it despite the fact that it defied logic? In this economy?

Of course, and that is why otherwise rational and commonsense oriented administrators implement zero tolerance--because their sometimes less rational higher ups order it.

[Greyclouds]

But we don't have a zero tolerance society outside of the school system. I can't think of a single area where we do.

Politics. One ill-advised action can ruin a political career.

Also, sexual offenses are so taboo in our society that people are often ordered to register as sexual offenders for life.


No, these decisions are not being forced by panicked parents, IMHO. These decisions are made by school administrators who have been backed to the wall by parents for not being tough enough in some cases, but too tough in others. The answer to this is always be tough.

True, but in both of your examples, the parents are involved in the decision making by directly influencing the school administrators.

Logically, one would see that the best course of action in preventing school violence would be to take into account intent (as most current laws do in our country).


Of course, and that is why otherwise rational and commonsense oriented administrators implement zero tolerance--because their sometimes less rational higher ups order it.

Agreed.

[RTchoke]

Plenty of my preschoolers bring reusable eating utensils (metal spoons, forks, sporks) etc.... that aren't attatched to items prhibited in our school code. Just pointing out the ridiculousness of the whole argument.

Just wait until one of those little buggers stabs another little bugger in the hand or leg with that fork. They too are weapons. They just don't look "evil" like a "knife" does. :rolleyes:

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

And it continues:
Another 'pocket knife' type instrument found in a locked car and part of a 'Survival Kit' has suspended a soon to be West Point attendee. My jaw dropped as I listened to the story last night of a Eagle Scout, top notch student who has saved another students life. Exemplary is what this young man is...and yet..here comes Zero Tolerance Policy strikes again! :rolleyes:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,565520,00.html

excerpt from article: Macri is a school official; Whalen is the student involved in story"

Whalen said he asked Macri why a 2-inch pocketknife would be considered more dangerous than other everyday items around the school.

"I said to him, 'What about a person who has a bat, on a baseball team? That could be a weapon.' And he said, 'Well, it's not the same thing.'"

and little further down during the punishment phase, Whalen states:

"I've been told by someone who works for the district that they had to do it, because if someone else had a knife and they saw that I didn't get a suspension, that it would look bad for the school."

So we have an honors student...whose record is clean as a Sunday Morning, is an accomplished young man, an Eagle Scout, training in rotc and is soon to be attending West Point. Yeah...someone tell me again why common sense in these types of situation isn't favorable to zero tolerance policies?

Whole thing makes educators more like zoo keepers running a zoo. Shouldn't educators ...I don't know..educate? Shouldn't teachers and on site administrators take care of the day to day with their own students? What happened to local school administering their own rules and their own common sense? Obviously this young man wasn't going to run about his school stabbing people with a two inch pocket blade...that was locked in his car...tucked into a survival kit. They called the cops for crying out loud! What the?

Whole thing is making my head hurt..taking some Imitrex an drinking more coffee before my eye's begin to bleed. :evil:


~Mysty

[WorldWatcher]

And it continues:
Another 'pocket knife' type instrument found in a locked car and part of a 'Survival Kit' has suspended a soon to be West Point attendee. My jaw dropped as I listened to the story last night of a Eagle Scout, top notch student who has saved another students life. Exemplary is what this young man is...and yet..here comes Zero Tolerance Policy strikes again! :rolleyes:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,565520,00.html

excerpt from article: Macri is a school official; Whalen is the student involved in story"

Whalen said he asked Macri why a 2-inch pocketknife would be considered more dangerous than other everyday items around the school.

"I said to him, 'What about a person who has a bat, on a baseball team? That could be a weapon.' And he said, 'Well, it's not the same thing.'"

and little further down during the punishment phase, Whalen states:

"I've been told by someone who works for the district that they had to do it, because if someone else had a knife and they saw that I didn't get a suspension, that it would look bad for the school."

So we have an honors student...whose record is clean as a Sunday Morning, is an accomplished young man, an Eagle Scout, training in rotc and is soon to be attending West Point. Yeah...someone tell me again why common sense in these types of situation isn't favorable to zero tolerance policies?

Whole thing makes educators more like zoo keepers running a zoo. Shouldn't educators ...I don't know..educate? Shouldn't teachers and on site administrators take care of the day to day with their own students? What happened to local school administering their own rules and their own common sense? Obviously this young man wasn't going to run about his school stabbing people with a two inch pocket blade...that was locked in his car...tucked into a survival kit. They called the cops for crying out loud! What the?

Whole thing is making my head hurt..taking some Imitrex an drinking more coffee before my eye's begin to bleed. :evil:


~Mysty


Just one correction, I saw this yesterday morning on Fox News, he isn't "soon to be attending West Point".


He hopes to attend West Point and is working on his application. You can't "soon to be" until accepted.



>>>>

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Just wait until one of those little buggers stabs another little bugger in the hand or leg with that fork. They too are weapons. They just don't look "evil" like a "knife" does. :rolleyes:

Pencils! Best darn weapon a K-4th grader can own. Stabs and draws blood...so what do they do with those kids who use such a thing to 'harm' (even play harm) with another student? Take them down to police head quarters and have them arrested for lead poisoning? :hand:

Zero Tolerance anything should be thrown out the window imo. Fully informed Case by Case scenarios should be the standard. Fully disclosed rules that include parent, teacher and administrators input should be drawn up. One size most certainly does not fit all within this topic.

Shame on those who won't use common sense, and instead hide behind Zero Tolerance. Nothing is set in stone..everything is up for change and debate...what we need is enough teachers and parents to stand up and simply tell their school district that they pay their salaries and are ready to force them to be allowed as part of the discussion and policy making of how to discipline children who do mean harm. It's really that simple.

Now the real question is why wasn't that done in the first place? Why weren't parents and teachers of each school invited to voice their opinions? Easy...the district superintendents of this country aren't interested in what the sheeple think..Nanny State law wins again. Remember, they know better then we do..and one size fits all does fit into their idea of how to run a school :rolleyes: Common sense? Takes to much time in their opinion...and thus we find ourselves such as we are.....:hand: Mores the pity....


~Mysty

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Just one correction, I saw this yesterday morning on Fox News, he isn't "soon to be attending West Point".


He hopes to attend West Point and is working on his application. You can't "soon to be" until accepted.



>>>>

Last nights news report said 'soon to be West Point attendee"...as if he'd already been accepted. Article states today he 'hopes' to attended. So ok...in, not in, whatever....hopes to go....whatever. he had a chance before his highschool gave it too hm in the shorts. Good luck getting in now kid...you've got a spot on your record...bye bye dreams of attending West Point now. :naughty:

That doesn't take away from how grossly offensive this story is nor how grossly inappropriately the Zero Tolerance laws were implemented in this case or in the one about a eating utensil and 6 year old boy is. Both have the same sour root....no common sense. and now, this stupid Zero Tolerance crap is going to possible keep a young man from serving his country. Nice..real nice. :rolleyes:

These are the type of behaviors in our young men we should be holding up..not tearing down. These two young men exhibit the best..not the worst. I swear I feel like Alice whose walked through the looking glass..everything is upside down and backwards anymore!

~Mysty

[RTchoke]

Pencils! Best darn weapon a K-4th grader can own. Stabs and draws blood...so what do they do with those kids who use such a thing to 'harm' (even play harm) with another student? Take them down to police head quarters and have them arrested for lead poisoning? :hand:

Zero Tolerance anything should be thrown out the window imo. Fully informed Case by Case scenarios should be the standard. Fully disclosed rules that include parent, teacher and administrators input should be drawn up. One size most certainly does not fit all within this topic.

Shame on those who won't use common sense, and instead hide behind Zero Tolerance. Nothing is set in stone..everything is up for change and debate...what we need is enough teachers and parents to stand up and simply tell their school district that they pay their salaries and are ready to force them to be allowed as part of the discussion and policy making of how to discipline children who do mean harm. It's really that simple.

Now the real question is why wasn't that done in the first place? Why weren't parents and teachers of each school invited to voice their opinions? Easy...the district superintendents of this country aren't interested in what the sheeple think..Nanny State law wins again. Remember, they know better then we do..and one size fits all does fit into their idea of how to run a school :rolleyes: Common sense? Takes to much time in their opinion...and thus we find ourselves such as we are.....:hand: Mores the pity....


~Mysty

Indeed. Hubby still has a piece of pencil lead in his shoulder that broke off when some chick sitting behind him stabbed him with a pencil in HS.

Zero tolerance policies mean idiot people in charge have to take no responsibility for the decisions they make, or in these cases decisions they don't have to make due to the policy.

[WorldWatcher]

Last nights news report said 'soon to be West Point attendee"...as if he'd already been accepted. Article states today he 'hopes' to attended. So ok...in, not in, whatever....hopes to go....whatever. he had a chance before his highschool gave it too hm in the shorts. Good luck getting in now kid...you've got a spot on your record...bye bye dreams of attending West Point now. :naughty:


I don't disagree that it's a tragic case and that Zero Tolerance policies need to be re-examined.


However out of his own mouth he said he still needs to work on his application, as such it is not complete so he's not been accepted.


Click on your own link to the story, then click on the "Click here for video" link and watch the countdown time until it gets to 1-minute 5-seconds remaining. You will hear him say that he should be working on his application.



>>>>

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I don't disagree that it's a tragic case and that Zero Tolerance policies need to be re-examined.


However out of his own mouth he said he still needs to work on his application, as such it is not complete so he's not been accepted.


Click on your own link to the story, then click on the "Click here for video" link and watch the countdown time until it gets to 1-minute 5-seconds remaining. You will hear him say that he should be working on his application.



>>>>

I'm not disagreeing with you...simply restating what the two stories held...report from last nights story said one thing and this article another. Yeah..I read the article. Large point here and again...what does any of the dog slicing hairs matter now? If or when he applies, his chances just became slim to none due to this stupid incident!

The larger point here...Both kids in both stories are not your average 'troubled' kid. Both boys are 'good' students by their own teachers and principals admission. Both boys don't fit the 'Columbine' type black trench coat unaffiliated maladjusted teens that Zero Tolerance was created to stop. :hand: Neither boy was wielding weapons in a threatening manner towards 'anyone' or making verbal threats of harm to 'anyone'; they weren't chasing down other students trying to harm them. Neither boy was using said 'weapon' as a weapon.

Indeed, the facts are, one was locked in a car survival kit and the other was trying to eat his lunch! These two kids got caught in a trap of hysteria and none common sense type thinking as every case must be dealt with as though they are axe murders in the making. It's stupid...it's not helping the situation..and it's pointing out just how screwed up our public school system is. Remember, education in our public schools isn't priority number one anymore. Evaluating the kids and their families for services and 'help' is number one, ....education comes in at number 3 on the priority chart as dictated by the Secretary of Education statements a few years back. :rolleyes: I'll see if I can find the vid clip from that whole stupid interview.

One would think that parents, teacher and admins of these schools would say enough is enough. That they aren't says boat loads to me. They are just as worried as keeping their jobs...just as 'pull the line' for the unions they work under/for..and just as non pluse about doing as their told instead of thinking for themselves. Gee...just where I want to send my kid to learn anything...NOT! :rolleyes: So glad all my kids are raised and off or through to college. I feel sorry for my future grandchildren. Maybe I can sell a kidney and get them off to a good private school? :shhh:

~Mysty

[Samm]

School boards took authority away from administartors, instituting 0 tolerance policies about all the nanny issues (knives, drugs (incl. Midol), peanuts).

The question in my mind is are we willing to accept the results of bad decisions by empowered administrators in order to eliminate the stupid decsisions by by-the-book administrators.

You have a point. There is a possibility that the school Principal threw the book at this kid to bring attention to the absurdity of the policy.

... but I doubt it.

[Samm]

It's bigger than that. It's bigger than 'do you allow local districts to make decisions about peanuts or shall their supervisors decide about peanuts'...

It's really "do you employ adults that actually have to THINK for a living, or do you create draconian policies that make it so that any idiot can do this job, and therefore, no one has to use their gray matter?'

Seriously, anyone that can look at a knife used for lunch and call it a weapon when they KNOW that the kid isn't a) using it as a weapon or b) is going to use it as a weapon, is a danger to themselves and others more than the kid with the eating utensil. If they cannot be trusted that far, why do they have the job?

It's literally saying "I will ignore common sense and what my eyes/ears and intellectual capability is telling me. I will avoid all responsiblity for my judgement. Hell, I will avoid all judgements at all. that way I can hide behind rules and pretend that I am just following directions like someone making widgits on an assemblyline'.

And furthermore, I will will blame a blameless kid for my lack of willingness to take my place in society as an adult.

Yep, it's always about shoving blame onto someone else. But doing it to KIDS is beyond the pale. Making a kid so responsible so that adults don't have to be. INstead of adults teaching children, it's children follow the endless rules so that we don't have to do our jobs.

As evidence of what you say, there have been several instances of children being disciplined under "zero tolerance" policies for even drawing a picture of a knife or a gun.

[jeepers]

Okay, so Hannity has the kid on his show tonight. Suit and tie, yes sir, no sir. AGGGGGGGGGGGGGH!

Yeah, HE is a kid that we have to worry about. :wall:

And I saw the "knife'. The WHOLE thing was two inches long, the blade itself looks to be about 3/4" long.

It's just a joke.