Gun-toting soccer mom is shot dead

[Long Island Bob]

Bob's note :
Lebanon is the name of a town and of a (rural) county in Pennsylvania.





Gun-toting soccer mom is shot dead
By Steve Farley
October 08, 2009, 12:00AM

Meleanie Hain, the pistol-carrying Lebanon mom who received national attention for taking a loaded gun to her daughter’s soccer game, was shot to death Wednesday night with her husband in an apparent murder-suicide, police said.


Hain, 31, and her husband, Scott, 33, were pronounced dead by Lebanon County Coroner Dr. Jeffrey Yocum shortly after 8:30 p.m. at their home at Second Avenue and East Grant Street, police said.

The couple’s three children were home at the time and were not injured, and are staying with relatives and friends, police said.

Autopsies were scheduled for Thursday, police said. No other details were available at press time.

Neighbor Mark Long said Meleanie baby-sat his 3-year-old son and that she and Scott had been having marital problems for the last week. Scott left on Tuesday and Meleanie did not know where he went, but he came back Wednesday, Long said.

Meleanie Hain was thrust into the national spotlight when she took a gun, in plain view and holstered on her hip, to a soccer game Sept. 11, 2008, at Optimist Park in Lebanon.

Her permit to carry a gun was revoked by Lebanon County Sheriff Michael DeLeo on Sept. 20, 2008. DeLeo said Hain showed poor judgment in wearing her gun to the game.

Hain’s permit was reinstated by Lebanon County Judge Robert Eby on Oct. 14, 2008, but the judge asked her to conceal it when she goes to soccer games. Hain said she would continue to carry it openly under the Second Amendment. . . . .

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/10/gun-toting_soccer_mom_is_shot.html

[Bluenose177]

and?

[Long Island Bob]

FWIW I also think she showed poor judgement by deciding NOT to conceal her weapon at the kids' soccer game.


I also think the fact that her husband eventually shot her to death is evidenceof the fact that she was right to make it a practice to carry a weapon and evidence that the 2nd amendment is necessary and not outdated.

[Stantz]

well that's a sad start to my day

[Bluenose177]

The 2nd Amendment is something I wish we had in the UK. Unfortunately horror stories like Dunblane and the kids killed by a psycho who owned guns did not do any favours to those who owned guns and did so responsibly. That and a government willing to capitulate at every turn..

[Alex]

We have Lebanon, anyone for Baghdad.....One in four in the world is of the Muslim faith

[treadmill]

This tragic death, which has all to do with personal circumstance and absolutely nothing to do with gun rights, will be exploited for political motives by the left.

[Long Island Bob]

This tragic death, which has all to do with personal circumstance and absolutely nothing to do with gun rights, will be exploited for political motives by the left.

I'm sure they'll try.

At the same time I think the manner of her death underscores why she was right to carry a weapon and why the 2nd amendment is still salient.

[Buffalo]

That is so sad.

[SFC(R)L]

Unfortunate.

It has nothing to do with the 2d Amendment, however.

[cmorlan]

I have a CCW but I carry openly in the Summer because in AZ I find it really hard to Conceal my Glock in the summer with out being uncomfortable. if I put it under my shirt it rubs on my ribs. its too warm to wear 2 shirts or a jacket.

[MrShotShot]

Husbands and wives don't need guns to kill each other.

Just last week in my area a POLICE OFFICER murdered his wife with a butcher knife and then killed himself.

Guns have nothing to do with it.

[Mally01]

This is indeed a very sad story. God Bless their children.

It may have been made to look like a murder-suicide by the left for anti-gun publicity. The Clintons are experts at staging death scenes maybe they acted as consultants. Vince Foster would tell you if he could...

This government is so corrupt they will stop at nothing and I am at a point where nothing is out of the realm of possibility where it is concerned.

[don_p]

FWIW I also think she showed poor judgement by deciding NOT to conceal her weapon at the kids' soccer game.


I also think the fact that her husband eventually shot her to death is evidenceof the fact that she was right to make it a practice to carry a weapon and evidence that the 2nd amendment is necessary and not outdated.

I got to agree with both points. How sad.

[Mohawk5]

It's amazing what people will do when they are desperate.

[animalnut]

What an incredibly sad story. What a misguided woman - trying to make a political point by carrying at a kids' soccer game. Incredibly poor judgement.

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

Who murdered who and who committed suicide?

[CaptainCrunch]

So, what's the moral of the story?

[tinydancer]

What an incredibly sad story. What a misguided woman - trying to make a political point by carrying at a kids' soccer game. Incredibly poor judgement.

Some one took a picture of her wearing the gun.

Where is the direct evidence that she wore the gun as a political statement?

It appears she feared her husband. And now with good cause. She's dead.

[Tex Mex]

So, what's the moral of the story? I don't know. That kooks can carry guns to kids soccer games?

[Long Island Bob]

So, what's the moral of the story?

That some folks are in danger and should b eallowed to carry a gun.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

That some folks are in danger and should b eallowed to carry a gun.
She was in danger, allowed to carry a gun, DID carry a gun, and still died.

The moral is that it doesn't ****ing matter. Desperate people will do desperate things, regardless of the available weaponry or the possibility of losing their own life in the process.

[nick21ia]

Wait a minute, how do we know she didnt kill him and then shot herself. I thought it just said she was shot and her husband was dead too.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Wait a minute, how do we know she didnt kill him and then shot herself. I thought it just said she was shot and her husband was dead too.
Statistically speaking, it's significantly less likely for a woman to commit suicide by gun.

It's POSSIBLE that she was the murderer, but not nearly as likely.

[SFC(R)L]

Wait a minute, how do we know she didnt kill him and then shot herself. I thought it just said she was shot and her husband was dead too.

it really doesn't matter.

[leftcoast]

This is indeed a very sad story. God Bless their children.

It may have been made to look like a murder-suicide by the left for anti-gun publicity. The Clintons are experts at staging death scenes maybe they acted as consultants. Vince Foster would tell you if he could...

This government is so corrupt they will stop at nothing and I am at a point where nothing is out of the realm of possibility where it is concerned.

This may be the most idiotic posting in the history of the Internet. Gun advocates murdered by the government - maybe with the help of the Clinton's! The nonsense the Wingnuts muse about has hit a new low. Unbelievable.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

This is indeed a very sad story. God Bless their children.

It may have been made to look like a murder-suicide by the left for anti-gun publicity. The Clintons are experts at staging death scenes maybe they acted as consultants. Vince Foster would tell you if he could...

This government is so corrupt they will stop at nothing and I am at a point where nothing is out of the realm of possibility where it is concerned.
You left this...

http://www.cynical-c.com/archives/bloggraphics/kutcherside.jpg

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Some one took a picture of her wearing the gun.

Where is the direct evidence that she wore the gun as a political statement?

It appears she feared her husband. And now with good cause. She's dead.
There is no direct evidence that she did as a political statement.

It just wasn't a terribly bright thing to do.

There are just certain places that if you HAVE to keep your piece on you, you SHOULD keep it concealed. School (building and property), government buildings, sports arenas...places where displaying it might cause a panic.

And note...I'm not saying it should be LAW that people MUST conceal it in those places...just that it's wildly unnecessary to be flashing your gun around in them.

[giuliag1]

So, what's the moral of the story?

Soccer is apparently a much more serious sport than one thought.

[chico53]

Wait a minute, how do we know she didnt kill him and then shot herself. I thought it just said she was shot and her husband was dead too.

Thank you. I was about to make the same point. All we know right now is two people are dead. Who killed who is still to be determined.

It's a sad story in many ways. But it will be even sadder to exploit it one way or the other. Shame on the zealots for doing so.

[LouC]

Wait a minute, how do we know she didnt kill him and then shot herself. I thought it just said she was shot and her husband was dead too.

We have this.

Some neighbors told the Lebanon Daily News they heard or saw the children running from the house and screaming "Daddy shot Mommy!" shortly before the 911 emergency center was alerted at 6:20 p.m.

Click LINK (http://www.wtop.com/?nid=104&sid=1781039)

The autopsy should confirm that claim.

[DDawg]

Unfortunate.

It has nothing to do with the 2d Amendment, however.
Give the Libs time ... before the end of the day ... They will all have it blamed on Bush and the 2nd Amendment ...

[chico53]

There is no direct evidence that she did as a political statement.

It just wasn't a terribly bright thing to do.

There are just certain places that if you HAVE to keep your piece on you, you SHOULD keep it concealed. School (building and property), government buildings, sports arenas...places where displaying it might cause a panic.

And note...I'm not saying it should be LAW that people MUST conceal it in those places...just that it's wildly unnecessary to be flashing your gun around in them.

Ah, a voice of reason in the darkness. This is the part of the debate the pro-gun folks either don't get or don't care about. This has nothing to do with whether it is legal or not or whether you have to right to bear arms or not. Bringing a gun to a kid's soccer game shows a lack of common sense, plain and simple.

[cmorlan]

Deleted because I was wrong ;-)

[LouC]

...Bringing a gun to a kid's soccer game shows a lack of common sense, plain and simple.

Why?

[Dr. Funkenstein]

wrong she died after she was no longer allowed to carry her gun. The Sheriff took her gun permit after she was photographed at the soccer game.
Reading the OP is FUNdamental!

Hain’s permit was reinstated by Lebanon County Judge Robert Eby on Oct. 14, 2008, but the judge asked her to conceal it when she goes to soccer games. Hain said she would continue to carry it openly under the Second Amendment. . . . .

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Ah, a voice of reason in the darkness. This is the part of the debate the pro-gun folks either don't get or don't care about. This has nothing to do with whether it is legal or not or whether you have to right to bear arms or not. Bringing a gun to a kid's soccer game shows a lack of common sense, plain and simple.
Bringing the gun to a game is fine...some people just feel they have to keep it on them. I'm okay with that.

Carrying it OPENLY at the game is entirely different. It serves only to make everyone else, who are kind of bunched in with each other, uncomfortable.

There's a difference between knowing someone has a gun under their coat and seeing it.

[LouC]

Bringing the gun to a game is fine...some people just feel they have to keep it on them. I'm okay with that.

Carrying it OPENLY at the game is entirely different. It serves only to make everyone else, who are kind of bunched in with each other, uncomfortable.

There's a difference between knowing someone has a gun under their coat and seeing it.

I would rather see it.

Lord knows how many purses and fanny packs are packing heat at public functions?

[Jagergeist]

Ah, a voice of reason in the darkness. This is the part of the debate the pro-gun folks either don't get or don't care about. This has nothing to do with whether it is legal or not or whether you have to right to bear arms or not. Bringing a gun to a kid's soccer game shows a lack of common sense, plain and simple.

Amen. Even the people who are adamant about 2nd Amendment rights wince when you have media coverage of stupid decisions like that. If she felt a legit threat from some situation in her life she could have carried multipe firearms hidden and none would have been the wiser, especially kids running around trying to have fun.

[Jagergeist]

wrong she died after she was no longer allowed to carry her gun. The Sheriff took her gun permit after she was photographed at the soccer game.

You may want to read the OP again.



"Her permit to carry a gun was revoked by Lebanon County Sheriff Michael DeLeo on Sept. 20, 2008. DeLeo said Hain showed poor judgment in wearing her gun to the game.

Hain’s permit was reinstated by Lebanon County Judge Robert Eby on Oct. 14, 2008, but the judge asked her to conceal it when she goes to soccer games. Hain said she would continue to carry it openly under the Second Amendment. . . . . "

[cmorlan]

Reading the OP is FUNdamental!

sorry missed that ;-) I knew it had been taken away I never realyl followed the case ;-) I retracted my statment.

[Long Island Bob]

We have Lebanon, anyone for Baghdad.....One in four in the world is of the Muslim faith

Whatever dude.

Lebanon PA (both the town and the county) were named by pious Christians



<snip>


Deuteronomy 3:25
Let me go over, I pray, and see the good land beyond the Jordan, that goodly hill country, and Lebanon.'

Deuteronomy 11:24
Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours; your territory shall be from the wilderness and Lebanon and from the River, the river Euphra'tes, to the western sea.

Joshua 1:4
From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the river Euphra'tes, all the land of the Hittites to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun shall be your territory.

Joshua 9:1
When all the kings who were beyond the Jordan in the hill country and in the lowland all along the coast of the Great Sea toward Lebanon, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites, heard of this

Joshua 11:17
... from Mount Halak, that rises toward Se'ir, as far as Ba'al-gad in the valley of Lebanon below Mount Hermon. And he took all their kings, and smote them, and put them to death.

Joshua 12:7
And these are the kings of the land whom Joshua and the people of Israel defeated on the west side of the Jordan, from Ba'al-gad in the valley of Lebanon to Mount Halak, that rises toward Se'ir (and Joshua gave their land to the tribes of Israel as a possession according to their allotments,

Joshua 13:5
and the land of the Geb'alites, and all Lebanon, toward the sunrising, from Ba'al-gad below Mount Hermon to the entrance of Hamath,

Joshua 13:6
all the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon to Mis'rephoth-ma'im, even all the Sido'nians. I will myself drive them out from before the people of Israel; only allot the land to Israel for an inheritance, as I have commanded you.

Judges 3:3
These are the nations: the five lords of the Philistines, and all the Canaanites, and the Sido'nians, and the Hivites who dwelt on Mount Lebanon, from Mount Ba'al-her'mon as far as the entrance of Hamath.

Judges 9:15
And the bramble said to the trees, 'If in good faith you are anointing me king over you, then come and take refuge in my shade; but if not, let fire come out of the bramble and devour the cedars of Lebanon.'

1 Kings 4:33
He spoke of trees, from the cedar that is in Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of the wall; he spoke also of beasts, and of birds, and of reptiles, and of fish.

1 Kings 5:6
Now therefore command that cedars of Lebanon be cut for me; and my servants will join your servants, and I will pay you for your servants such wages as you set; for you know that there is no one among us who knows how to cut timber like the Sido'nians."

1 Kings 5:9
My servants shall bring it down to the sea from Lebanon; and I will make it into rafts to go by sea to the place you direct, and I will have them broken up there, and you shall receive it; and you shall meet my wishes by providing food for my household."

1 Kings 5:14
And he sent them to Lebanon, ten thousand a month in relays; they would be a month in Lebanon and two months at home; Adoni'ram was in charge of the levy.

1 Kings 7:2
He built the House of the Forest of Lebanon; its length was a hundred cubits, and its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits, and it was built upon three rows of cedar pillars, with cedar beams upon the pillars.

1 Kings 9:19
and all the store-cities that Solomon had, and the cities for his chariots, and the cities for his horsemen, and whatever Solomon desired to build in
Jerusalem, in Lebanon, and in all the land of his dominion.

1 Kings 10:17
And he made three hundred shields of beaten gold; three minas of gold went into each shield; and the king put them in the House of the Forest of
Lebanon.

1 Kings 10:21
All King Solomon's drinking vessels were of gold, and all the vessels of the House of the Forest of Lebanon were of pure gold; none were of silver, it
was not considered as anything in the days of Solomon.

2 Kings 14:9
And Jeho'ash king of Israel sent word to Amazi'ah king of Judah, "A thistle on Lebanon sent to a cedar on Lebanon, saying, 'Give your daughter to
my son for a wife'; and a wild beast of Lebanon passed by and trampled down the thistle.

2 Kings 19:23
By your messengers you have mocked the LORD, and you have said, 'With my many chariots I have gone up the heights of the mountains, to the far
recesses of Lebanon; I felled its tallest cedars, its choicest cypresses; I entered its farthest retreat, its densest forest.

2 Chronicles 2:8
Send me also cedar, cypress, and algum timber from Lebanon, for I know that your servants know how to cut timber in Lebanon. And my servants
will be with your servants,

2 Chronicles 2:16
and we will cut whatever timber you need from Lebanon, and bring it to you in rafts by sea to Joppa, so that you may take it up to Jerusalem."

2 Chronicles 8:6
and Ba'alath, and all the store-cities that Solomon had, and all the cities for his chariots, and the cities for his horsemen, and whatever Solomon desired
to build in Jerusalem, in Lebanon, and in all the land of his dominion.

<snip>

Isaiah 35:2
it shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice with joy and singing. The glory of Lebanon shall be given to it, the majesty of Carmel and Sharon. They shall
see the glory of the LORD, the majesty of our God.

Isaiah 37:24
By your servants you have mocked the Lord, and you have said, With my many chariots I have gone up the heights of the mountains, to the far
recesses of Lebanon; I felled its tallest cedars, its choicest cypresses; I came to its remotest height, its densest forest.

Isaiah 40:16
Lebanon would not suffice for fuel, nor are its beasts enough for a burnt offering.

Isaiah 60:13
The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, the cypress, the plane, and the pine, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my
feet glorious.

Jeremiah 18:14
Does the snow of Lebanon leave the crags of Si'rion? Do the mountain waters run dry, the cold flowing streams?

Jeremiah 22:6
For thus says the LORD concerning the house of the king of Judah: "'You are as Gilead to me, as the summit of Lebanon, yet surely I will make you a
desert, an uninhabited city.

Jeremiah 22:20
"Go up to Lebanon, and cry out, and lift up your voice in Bashan; cry from Ab'arim, for all your lovers are destroyed.

Jeremiah 22:23
O inhabitant of Lebanon, nested among the cedars, how you will groan when pangs come upon you, pain as of a woman in travail!"

Ezekiel 17:3
say, Thus says the Lord GOD: A great eagle with great wings and long pinions, rich in plumage of many colors, came to Lebanon and took the top of
the cedar;

Ezekiel 27:5
They made all your planks of fir trees from Senir; they took a cedar from Lebanon to make a mast for you.

Ezekiel 31:3
Behold, I will liken you to a cedar in Lebanon, with fair branches and forest shade, and of great height, its top among the clouds.

Ezekiel 31:15
"Thus says the Lord GOD: When it goes down to Sheol I will make the deep mourn for it, and restrain its rivers, and many waters shall be stopped; I
will clothe Lebanon in gloom for it, and all the trees of the field shall faint because of it.

Ezekiel 31:16
I will make the nations quake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to Sheol with those who go down to the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the
choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, will be comforted in the nether world.

Hosea 14:6
his shoots shall spread out; his beauty shall be like the olive, and his fragrance like Lebanon.

Hosea 14:7
They shall return and dwell beneath my shadow, they shall flourish as a garden; they shall blossom as the vine, their fragrance shall be like the wine of
Lebanon.

Nahum 1:4
He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, he dries up all the rivers; Bashan and Carmel wither, the bloom of Lebanon fades.

Habakkuk 2:17
The violence done to Lebanon will overwhelm you; the destruction of the beasts will terrify you, for the blood of men and violence to the earth, to
cities and all who dwell therein.

Zechariah 10:10
I will bring them home from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria; and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, till there is no
room for them.

Zechariah 11:1
Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars!

http://www.yazbeck.com/roger/lebanon/bible.html

[Dr. Funkenstein]

sorry missed that ;-) I knew it had been taken away I never realyl followed the case ;-) I retracted my statment.
S'alright...everyone misses things from time to time.

[GregMartin]

IF ONLY Obama had brought back the Olympics these poeple wouldn't have died over soccer.

[poorblackman]

Husbands and wives don't need guns to kill each other.

Just last week in my area a POLICE OFFICER murdered his wife with a butcher knife and then killed himself.

Guns have nothing to do with it.

It just lays bare the fallicy that if you have a gun you are somehow safer. You are just more likely to be killed by your own gun than defend yourself with it.

[chip]

It just lays bare the fallicy that if you have a gun you are somehow safer.

No it doesnt. Its not a "fallicy" that you are safer with a sidearm to protect yourself than without.

You are just more likely to be killed by your own gun than defend yourself with it.

Go ahead and document that ridiculous claim.

[chip]

There are just certain places that if you HAVE to keep your piece on you, you SHOULD keep it concealed. School (building and property), government buildings, sports arenas...places where displaying it might cause a panic.



You cant carry in most states at schools, govt buildings and sports arenas to begin with. Concealed or Open carry.

[Jagergeist]

No it doesnt. Its not a "fallicy" that you are safer with a sidearm to protect yourself than without.


Go ahead and document that ridiculous claim.


I think that point has been well shown already. I don't think it's an argument against the 2nd Amendment, and believe the Founders were pretty clear what they intended when they wrote it, but many people end up getting killed with their own guns.


"Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher. While it may be that the type of people who carry firearms are simply more likely to get shot, it may be that guns give a sense of empowerment that causes carriers to overreact in tense situations, ..."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-get-shot-and-killed.html

[Jagergeist]

In a wierd way I think Illinois' anti-CCW law actually helps keep down shootings. It's obvious otherwise law abiding people carry guns but they know they are comitting a class 4 felony in doing so. If they are in a tense situation they are all about deescalation, avoidance and escape. It works to keep the actual shootings to people knowing it's down to a possible prison term or death.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

You cant carry in most states at schools, govt buildings and sports arenas to begin with. Concealed or Open carry.
I was referring to places where you can, but you're right.

Not being a gun owner myself, I don't spend a lot of time keeping up with CCW regulations or even general gun laws.

[Long Island Bob]

I think that point has been well shown already. I don't think it's an argument against the 2nd Amendment, and believe the Founders were pretty clear what they intended when they wrote it, but many people end up getting killed with their own guns.


"Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher. While it may be that the type of people who carry firearms are simply more likely to get shot, it may be that guns give a sense of empowerment that causes carriers to overreact in tense situations, ..."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-get-shot-and-killed.html

yeah well people who are in danger tend to do to things at a higher rate than most americans
1. carry a gun
and
2. get shot.


correlation does not imply causation.

[chip]

I think that point has been well shown already. I don't think it's an argument against the 2nd Amendment, and believe the Founders were pretty clear what they intended when they wrote it, but many people end up getting killed with their own guns.


"Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher. While it may be that the type of people who carry firearms are simply more likely to get shot, it may be that guns give a sense of empowerment that causes carriers to overreact in tense situations, ..."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-get-shot-and-killed.html


Um thats a study done in Philly.

[Jagergeist]

Um thats a study done in Philly.

First one I found. I was always under the impression you had a higher chance of being shot and/or killed by your own gun anywhere across the nation. (Again, I'm not an anti-gunner, just what I thought).

[chip]

First one I found. I was always under the impression you had a higher chance of being shot and/or killed by your own gun anywhere across the nation. (Again, I'm not an anti-gunner, just what I thought).

While I believe your not anti gun. That study is always the one that anti concealed carry dolts run to.

[chip]

I was referring to places where you can, but you're right.

Not being a gun owner myself, I don't spend a lot of time keeping up with CCW regulations or even general gun laws.

I would continue to concealed carry even if we had open carry here in Texas.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

yeah well people who are in danger tend to do to things at a higher rate than most americans
1. carry a gun
and
2. get shot.


correlation does not imply causation.
They also tend to run and turn their heads a lot. Not to mention the great number of people in danger who seem to lose their shoes.

I think I watch too many movies...

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I would continue to concealed carry even if we had open carry here in Texas.
1. There you go being all "reasonable" again...what the hell kind of Cowboy fan are you? :razz:

2. I'm honestly stunned you DON'T have open carry in Texas. Other than Montana, that's the one state I'd EXPECT to see it.

[LouC]

Gun-carrying soccer mom Meleanie Hain, who died with her husband in what police are calling a murder-suicide, had been separated from her husband and was considering filing a protection-from-abuse order against him, her lawyer said today.

Matthew Weisberg, who represented Meleanie Hain in a federal lawsuit against the Lebanon County sheriff, said he understood she had been seeking a PFA against her husband sometime in the past month.

Meleanie Hain was thrust into the national spotlight when she took a gun, in plain view and holstered on her hip, to a soccer game Sept. 11, 2008, at Optimist Park in Lebanon.

Hain then filed a lawsuit against DeLeo for $1 million in U.S. Middle District Court seeking reimbursement of attorneys’ fees and costs, emotional distress and lost wages.

Weisberg said Meleanie Hain had contacted him in the last four or five months about removing her husband’s name from the lawsuit.

PennLive
Click LINK (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/10/gun-toting_mom_meleanie_hain_h.html)

Sadly protection orders have never prevented a spouse from being murdered any more than a weapon not used.

It sounds like the soccer field was a public one and no mention that it was a school league.

Seems that carrying a weapon on park property was not against any law if she was told to carry her weapon concealed in the future if she felt she must carry it?

Removing his name from the lawsuit, the proverbial straw, the one that broke his emotional camel's back?

Tragic.

[chip]

1. There you go being all "reasonable" again...what the hell kind of Cowboy fan are you? :razz:

2. I'm honestly stunned you DON'T have open carry in Texas. Other than Montana, that's the one state I'd EXPECT to see it.


Who said I was a Cowboys fan? Dont pin that ****ty defense and half assed quarterback on me.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Who said I was a Cowboys fan? Dont pin that ****ty defense and half assed quarterback on me.
I thought you said you were in prior conversations...my bad :redface:

[chip]

I thought you said you were in prior conversations...my bad :redface:

LOL

I live here. I love the stadium. Not really a Cowboy fan.

[tnt]

Husbands and wives don't need guns to kill each other.

Just last week in my area a POLICE OFFICER murdered his wife with a butcher knife and then killed himself.

Guns have nothing to do with it.

First, what a tragic story. I feel for the children.

Sounds like we don't know who shot who first, but regardless, it's a tragedy.



Regarding your post, while you are right of course, the fact remains, it's much EASIER to kill some one with a gun.

ten years ago or so, a deranged man broke into a home in our town. He had been attemneding a bible conference and had some kind of middle of the night revelation/freak out (or so it is speculated, as the guy was shot dead at the end of the tale) and felt compelled to try to kill some one.

So he breaks into a home, husband comes down the stairs, crazy man picks up a knife off the kitchen coutner and attacks.

Man, in his robe, fights him off, gets stabbed, not severely, pushes crazy man out the door.

Wife comes down the stairs, tends to husband.

Crazy breaks in again, picks up knife attacks.

Wife hits crazy over teh head with a pan.

Crazy staggers out side, met by police, shot dead when he won't drop the knife.

Some where in the melee I think a neighbor come by too and helps fight the crazy off - I forget.

My point is, had Crazy guy had a gun, he would have killed some one for sure that night, just like that.

So restrictions matter.
Sensible guidelines.
Limits.
Makes a difference.

Think about columbine. And I forge the circumstances of the weapons used.

But it's pretty clear, had those kids not been able to put their hands on those weapons, so man lives would not have been lost.

Guns are final, fast and effective.

Saying all this just because too often pro-gunners just want to rebel against ANY discussion of gun laws.

As in most things political, the answer lies IMO some where in the middle.

[chip]

Think about columbine. And I forge the circumstances of the weapons used.

But it's pretty clear, had those kids not been able to put their hands on those weapons, so man lives would not have been lost.



Um they already violated weapons laws in obtaining the guns used at Columbine. The guns were purchased illegally and the seller went to prison for 4 and a half years.

[Jagergeist]

While I believe your not anti gun. That study is always the one that anti concealed carry dolts run to.

Oh, I didn't know that. Sorry and thanks for setting the record straight. The more I have been reading about the issue the more I see those studies seem to have some serious flaws about causality.

[SFC(R)L]

Um they already violated weapons laws in obtaining the guns used at Columbine. The guns were purchased illegally and the seller went to prison for 4 and a half years.

persons determined to kill others don't need guns to do it.

[DavidC]

Did he shoot her with the same gun she brought to the soccer game, or his own gun?

Was she carrying the gun because he had been threatening her?

Not enough facts yet.

[tnt]

Um they already violated weapons laws in obtaining the guns used at Columbine.

Yeah, what I mean is, I know people like to say, 'guns don't kill people, people do'.

But that is only half the story.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But they do it much more efficiently with guns.

[tnt]

persons determined to kill others don't need guns to do it.

But they can do it so much better with guns.

[SFC(R)L]

Did he shoot her with the same gun she brought to the soccer game, or his own gun?

Was she carrying the gun because he had been threatening her?

Not enough facts yet.

This is really not the point; the point is that domestic violence is the problem.

You can kill your spouse with a lamp.

[birddog1]

First, what a tragic story. I feel for the children.

Sounds like we don't know who shot who first, but regardless, it's a tragedy.



Regarding your post, while you are right of course, the fact remains, it's much EASIER to kill some one with a gun.

ten years ago or so, a deranged man broke into a home in our town. He had been attemneding a bible conference and had some kind of middle of the night revelation/freak out (or so it is speculated, as the guy was shot dead at the end of the tale) and felt compelled to try to kill some one.

So he breaks into a home, husband comes down the stairs, crazy man picks up a knife off the kitchen coutner and attacks.

Man, in his robe, fights him off, gets stabbed, not severely, pushes crazy man out the door.

Wife comes down the stairs, tends to husband.

Crazy breaks in again, picks up knife attacks.

Wife hits crazy over teh head with a pan.

Crazy staggers out side, met by police, shot dead when he won't drop the knife.

Some where in the melee I think a neighbor come by too and helps fight the crazy off - I forget.

My point is, had Crazy guy had a gun, he would have killed some one for sure that night, just like that.

So restrictions matter.
Sensible guidelines.
Limits.
Makes a difference.

Think about columbine. And I forge the circumstances of the weapons used.

But it's pretty clear, had those kids not been able to put their hands on those weapons, so man lives would not have been lost.

Guns are final, fast and effective.

Saying all this just because too often pro-gunners just want to rebel against ANY discussion of gun laws.

As in most things political, the answer lies IMO some where in the middle.

Your statements ignore the reality that guns are easy to come by illegally and nothing can prevent that, the genie is out of the bottle. Most gun laws only serve as speed bumps to law abiding citizens gun purchases.

You also failed to mention that if the homeowners had owned a gun and been proficient in its use this deranged nut would have been dead on the kitchen floor without stabbing anyone.

[birddog1]

But they can do it so much better with guns.

Victims can also defend themselves better with a firearm.

[chip]

Yeah, what I mean is, I know people like to say, 'guns don't kill people, people do'.

But that is only half the story.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But they do it much more efficiently with guns.

So what?

Doesnt mean we need more gun laws.

[tnt]

Your statements ignore the reality that guns are easy to come by illegally and nothing can prevent that, the genie is out of the bottle. Most gun laws only serve as speed bumps to law abiding citizens gun purchases.

You also failed to mention that if the homeowners had owned a gun and been proficient in its use this deranged nut would have been dead on the kitchen floor without stabbing anyone.

You can change the circumstances all you want to fit your point.

My point is simply guns aren't equivalent to knives, to lamps, to baseball bats, to this or that. Guns people very very quickly and efficiently.

Ignoring that reality is like ignoring the fact that cars kill people quickly and therefore deserve some regulation. Or booze. Or airplanes.

[tnt]

So what?

Doesnt mean we need more gun laws.

I don't know about more.

I'd argue for more effective.

[birddog1]

You can change the circumstances all you want to fit your point.

My point is simply guns aren't equivalent to knives, to lamps, to baseball bats, to this or that. Guns people very very quickly and efficiently.

Ignoring that reality is like ignoring the fact that cars kill people quickly and therefore deserve some regulation. Or booze. Or airplanes.

You were the first to change circumstance by saying "what if he had a gun" is turn about not fair play?

You also continue to ignore the fact that guns are the best way for people to defend themselves from nut jobs like that.

[birddog1]

I don't know about more.

I'd argue for more effective.

How would you make gun laws more effective? How would you go about keeping guns out of criminals hands?

[srbedgood]

I think that point has been well shown already. I don't think it's an argument against the 2nd Amendment, and believe the Founders were pretty clear what they intended when they wrote it, but many people end up getting killed with their own guns.


"Overall, Branas's study found that people who carried guns were 4.5 times as likely to be shot and 4.2 times as likely to get killed compared with unarmed citizens. When the team looked at shootings in which victims had a chance to defend themselves, their odds of getting shot were even higher. While it may be that the type of people who carry firearms are simply more likely to get shot, it may be that guns give a sense of empowerment that causes carriers to overreact in tense situations, ..."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17922-carrying-a-gun-increases-risk-of-get-shot-and-killed.html
How many of those carrying that got shot were carrying legally?

[birddog1]

How many of those carrying that got shot were carrying legally?

Yeah, being an unlicensed pharmacist or a local gang banger might have more to do with getting shot than simply owning a firearm.

[gloucon]

How many of those carrying that got shot were carrying legally?

re:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...nd-killed.html

this study took place in Philly: an urban, high crime high density population area. And it doesn't seem to differentiate between gun carriers in a way that would define that catagory more usefully: concealed weapons permit holders, police, or gun toting gang bangers.

[King Cantona]

FWIW I also think she showed poor judgement by deciding NOT to conceal her weapon at the kids' soccer game.


I also think the fact that her husband eventually shot her to death is evidenceof the fact that she was right to make it a practice to carry a weapon and evidence that the 2nd amendment is necessary and not outdated.

Are you serious? Of course it's outdated....:rolleyes:....

[Long Island Bob]

re:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...nd-killed.html

this study took place in Philly: an urban, high crime high density population area. And it doesn't seem to differentiate between gun carriers in a way that would define that catagory more usefully: concealed weapons permit holders, police, or gun toting gang bangers.

soo

being a homicide target or living ina dangerous neighborhood makes one want to carry a gun?
Nonesense.

People are shot because they carry guns.

[King Cantona]

The 2nd Amendment is something I wish we had in the UK. Unfortunately horror stories like Dunblane and the kids killed by a psycho who owned guns did not do any favours to those who owned guns and did so responsibly. That and a government willing to capitulate at every turn..

Well I'm sure you feel safer in the US.....

[drylok]

If guns kill people, I need to take all mine back to the dealer cause they are defective.

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

soo

being a homicide target or living ina dangerous neighborhood makes one want to carry a gun?
Nonesense.

People are shot because they carry guns.

I dunno, I lived in the hood and had guns, there's some truth to what you say, but there's also some truth that a dude with a gun in his belt will act much tougher than he really is, and eventually someone takes the gun off them and shoots them with it, or pulls their gun and shoots them.

[drylok]

I dunno, I lived in the hood and had guns, there's some truth to what you say, but there's also some truth that a dude with a gun in his belt will act much tougher than he really is, and eventually someone takes the gun off them and shoots them with it, or pulls their gun and shoots them.

I have searched and searched to find a case where someone who was concealed got thier gun stolen off their person and shot with it. I can't find one anywhere can you help me?

[birddog1]

I dunno, I lived in the hood and had guns, there's some truth to what you say, but there's also some truth that a dude with a gun in his belt will act much tougher than he really is, and eventually someone takes the gun off them and shoots them with it, or pulls their gun and shoots them.

That scenario would only seem to fit a small segment of the population of gun owners in my opinion though. For example at least 80% of the people in my CCW class a few years ago were 60+ years old and not very likly to go around acting cocky on the street with a gun.

[birddog1]

Well I'm sure you feel safer in the US.....

I feel very safe here! I live in a very low crime area as well as having the right and ability to defend myself in the remote chance that some criminal does target me. Not all of us live in drug infested gang banging cesspools.

[gloucon]

soo

being a homicide target or living ina dangerous neighborhood makes one want to carry a gun?
Nonesense.

People are shot because they carry guns.

I don't get your point. I see police carry guns, and I don't want to shoot them.
People are shot because someone else was aiming at them.
say two people have guns. lets go further and say one was an attempted robber, and the second was the targeted victim. Concealed carrier victim pulls gun and shoots attacker.
the study counts that shooting "victim" the same as if the attacker(robber) had killed the victim.

There's a difference I'm trying (?unsuccessfully? ) to make. A shot criminal is different than a shot police officer, or than an innocent who happens to have a gun on them at the time of their being targeted. And the study did not seem to make that differentiation.

[SFC(R)L]

If guns kill people, I need to take all mine back to the dealer cause they are defective.

Remove your gun from its holster

ensure the chamber is charged, and the gun is prepared to fire

place the gun on safe

put it on the table

now see if it kills

[Koushi Shinigami]

"Neighbor Mark Long said Meleanie baby-sat his 3-year-old son and that she and Scott had been having marital problems for the last week. "


They gave up on their marriage after one week of trouble? Quitters.


Someone should cross link this article to the "Relationships and Marriage" thread.


.

[chip]

I dunno, I lived in the hood and had guns, there's some truth to what you say, but there's also some truth that a dude with a gun in his belt will act much tougher than he really is, and eventually someone takes the gun off them and shoots them with it, or pulls their gun and shoots them.

Maybe true for non licensed individuals, but not for those with permits.

As a permit holder you have a responsibility to walk away from the stupid ****.

[Long Island Bob]

I don't get your point. I see police carry guns, and I don't want to shoot them.
People are shot because someone else was aiming at them.
say two people have guns. lets go further and say one was an attempted robber, and the second was the targeted victim. Concealed carrier victim pulls gun and shoots attacker.
the study counts that shooting "victim" the same as if the attacker(robber) had killed the victim.

There's a difference I'm trying (?unsuccessfully? ) to make. A shot criminal is different than a shot police officer, or than an innocent who happens to have a gun on them at the time of their being targeted. And the study did not seem to make that differentiation.

I was being sarcastic.

Someone posted info from a study of a tough Philly neghborhood showing that people who carried guns there were more likely to be killed than people who did not.

Consider it this way:
- Cops carry guns, and are more likely to be killed than the general population.
- Gang bangers carry guns, and are more likely to be killed than the general population.
- People who have been threatened by gang bangers or estranged husbands are more likely to carry guns, and are more likely to be killed than the general population.
- Liquor store owners carry guns, and are more likely to be killed than the general population.

Conclusion:
a. Carrying a gun puts your life at risk.
or
b. People whose lives are at risk tend to carry guns.

I was told to believe "a."

[poorblackman]

I was being sarcastic.

Someone posted info from a study of a tough Philly neghborhood showing that people who carried guns there were more likely to be killed than people who did not.

Consider it this way:
- Cops carry guns, and are more likely to be killed than the general population.
- Gang bangers carry guns, and are more likely to be killed than the general population.
- People who have been threatened by gang bangers or estranged husbands are more likely to carry guns, and are more likely to be killed than the general population.
- Liquor store owners carry guns, and are more likely to be killed than the general population.

Conclusion:
a. Carrying a gun puts your life at risk.
or
b. People whose lives are at risk tend to carry guns.

I was told to believe "a."

Both A & B are true.

[Andrew_980]

The moral of the story is that if you must commit murder, use a car or kitchen knife. The whacko assbags will not scream about sueing toyota or throwing martha steward in prison for disigning your weapon.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I thought the moral was 'Don't Get Married'.

[drylok]

In a wierd way I think Illinois' anti-CCW law actually helps keep down shootings. It's obvious otherwise law abiding people carry guns but they know they are comitting a class 4 felony in doing so. If they are in a tense situation they are all about deescalation, avoidance and escape. It works to keep the actual shootings to people knowing it's down to a possible prison term or death.

Why don't you tell that to a rape victim in Illinois? Besides no jury in thier right mind would convict an American citizen for bearing arms in a dynamic critical incident.