Arab states launch secret moves - china, russia, france to stop using dollar for oil

[avergbear]

ARAB STATES LAUNCH SECRET MOVES WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FRANCE TO STOP USING DOLLAR FOR OIL TRADING... DEVELOPING...


On Drudge Reprot. More "Change We Can Believe In."

www.drudgereport.com

[PSBandit]

Someone please ask H. Rotten what she and BHO are doing to restore "our standing in the world" because at the moment things are not going our way it would seem.

First the IOC Rio thing and now this....

[BigGuy]

ARAB STATES LAUNCH SECRET MOVES WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FRANCE TO STOP USING DOLLAR FOR OIL TRADING... DEVELOPING...


On Drudge Reprot. More "Change We Can Believe In."

www.drudgereport.com (http://www.drudgereport.com)

"MWAAHAHahaaaaaa....it's all going as planned." /Channeling Obama off

[avergbear]

"MWAAHAHahaaaaaa....it's all going as planned." /Channeling Obama off

I guess we just fail to appreciate Europe’s leading role in the world. [/sarcasm]

[RickRhetoric]

Bush is almost solely to blame for America going sour to the whole world. Had he not run around like a Nazi storm trooper threatening to make war with other nations, Chicago would've won the Olympics venue and oil-producing nations would be supplying oil to America for ten bucks a barrel.

[Ariel_Avram]

Boy, that is not good at all. This is the type of thing that can lead to a war. And the Arab states know that we are bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[hwyflier]

Who can blame them? This is the natural reaction we should expect when we print money.


Separately, didn't Iraq try this sort of thing?

[old guy]

and what are they going to use to replace it?

ill believe it when i see it on bloomberg

[Dacarlo]

At least the EU isn't involved.

[E7ALR]

and what are they going to use to replace it?

ill believe it when i see it on bloombergThey have actually been talking about it for some time now. Usually a basket of currencies is referenced as the replacement. The end result would be that the US dollar would fall against other currencies, making our energy costs rise whlie having little effect on everyone else.

[Buschb]

Boy, that is not good at all. This is the type of thing that can lead to a war. And the Arab states know that we are bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan.

word

[avergbear]

At least the EU isn't involved.

How do you know that?

[Dacarlo]

How do you know that?


I kinda guessed from Drudges headline.

[Ariel_Avram]

I know Drudge has broke some big stories in the past, but how reliable is he? Is there a chance he jumped the gun? Cause I really don't want this to be true. :naughty:

[avergbear]

I kinda guessed from Drudges headline.

But…it’s a secret plan.

[johnrocks]

ARAB STATES LAUNCH SECRET MOVES WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FRANCE TO STOP USING DOLLAR FOR OIL TRADING... DEVELOPING...


On Drudge Reprot. More "Change We Can Believe In."

www.drudgereport.com

Some of us were saying this would happen in 07 when I joined here, we were laughed at and called kooks if my memory serves correctly.

This is only happening on O dumb one's watch, it didn't start there.

[Darkcloud72]

It sickens me to know that my country is so hated by the very people who America has sacrificed so much to defend. They want to kick us while were down without realizing that in the long run they will be hurting only themselves. America has utilized its power and wealth for the greater good for the world unlike past world powers. This should serve as a stark warning to us that no matter who our president is or what we do that most of the world hates us regardless and we should start acting accordingly. The hell with them all as I say we pull our troops out of everywhere and send em home. I would really enjoy to watch those ungrateful people stand up to the next evil threat without our help. I am a 1st generation American and I believe in the USA and regardless of what happens we will prevail and come out of this stronger than ever!
LONG LIVE AMERICA

[Vaard]

Some of us were saying this would happen in 07 when I joined here, we were laughed at and called kooks if my memory serves correctly.

This is only happening on O dumb one's watch, it didn't start there.

here is what was said back in 2007....

http://www.stwr.org/global-financial-crisis/7-countries-considering-abandoning-the-us-dollar-and-what-it-means.html


with alot more detail than a headline.........


there is no reference to drudges headline on google other than drudge.........

[Vaard]

It sickens me to know that my country is so hated by the very people who America has sacrificed so much to defend. They want to kick us while were down without realizing that in the long run they will be hurting only themselves. America has utilized its power and wealth for the greater good for the world unlike past world powers. This should serve as a stark warning to us that no matter who our president is or what we do that most of the world hates us regardless and we should start acting accordingly. The hell with them all as I say we pull our troops out of everywhere and send em home. I would really enjoy to watch those ungrateful people stand up to the next evil threat without our help. I am a 1st generation American and I believe in the USA and regardless of what happens we will prevail and come out of this stronger than ever!
LONG LIVE AMERICA

well, most are not cinsidering such a move because they hate america.... they are doing it because of massive (increasing) debt, increased spending and arbitrarily printing money......

[johnrocks]

here is what was said back in 2007....

http://www.stwr.org/global-financial-crisis/7-countries-considering-abandoning-the-us-dollar-and-what-it-means.html


with alot more detail than a headline.........


there is no reference to drudges headline on google other than drudge.........

Not like we've had fair warning, I've seen articles from 06 also. People that thinks this just cropped up in the last few months are ignorant to macro economics.

[Darkcloud72]

Yes I agree that we are printing money like its going out of style. However its always the usual suspects (France, Russia, China, Arabs) who are involved when it comes to spite America. Until the sheep of this country wake up and realize whats happening things will only get worse. However I believe in this country and am confident eventually we will do away with the 2 party dictatorship that has put us in this position and see hte emergence of a strong 3rd party. It will happen in our lifetime

[Celtic Pax]

With the US economy out of control for some time combined with the excessive spending of the Obama administration, I can't blame everyone anyone from jumping off the dollar. Not surprised at the French jumping ship on the US dollar as they have been working to undermine US influence and power for years. Unfortunately, the US has given them and other enemies the perfect weapon to dump the US. Let's see if Liar:bama can get his ass out of this crack. (as well as getting the US back on an even keel)

[Plasmaball]

Some of us were saying this would happen in 07 when I joined here, we were laughed at and called kooks if my memory serves correctly.

This is only happening on O dumb one's watch, it didn't start there.

really wasnt all that secret to begin with. Dollar falling where do you think they would go?

[Ariel_Avram]

Here is the article linked to Drudge's website.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/the-demise-of-the-dollar-1798175.html

[Darkcloud72]

With the US economy out of control for some time combined with the excessive spending of the Obama administration, I can't blame everyone anyone from jumping off the dollar. Not surprised at the French jumping ship on the US dollar as they have been working to undermine US influence and power for years. Unfortunately, the US has given them and other enemies the perfect weapon to dump the US. Let's see if Liar:bama can get his ass out of this crack. (as well as getting the US back on an even keel)

You are exactly correct! The problem is its just not Obama and the America hating Liberals as the republicans share much of the blame. The GOP has strayed so far from its conservative principles. Out of control spending has been the trademark of both parties for a long time and is just now catching up to us.

[darknessesedge]

ARAB STATES LAUNCH SECRET MOVES WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FRANCE TO STOP USING DOLLAR FOR OIL TRADING... DEVELOPING...


On Drudge Reprot. More "Change We Can Believe In."

www.drudgereport.com

maybe we can go back to confed dollars...:rolleyes:

[johnrocks]

really wasnt all that secret to begin with. Dollar falling where do you think they would go?

Touche' however it was dismissed until recently, I wonder why?:think:

[Dacarlo]

Drudge has a link.

[Dacarlo]

This is scary..

Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its oil in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein trumpeted his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq.

[ressurectedUltraSaiyanUSA]

It sickens me to know that my country is so hated by the very people who America has sacrificed so much to defend. They want to kick us while were down without realizing that in the long run they will be hurting only themselves. America has utilized its power and wealth for the greater good for the world unlike past world powers. This should serve as a stark warning to us that no matter who our president is or what we do that most of the world hates us regardless and we should start acting accordingly. The hell with them all as I say we pull our troops out of everywhere and send em home. I would really enjoy to watch those ungrateful people stand up to the next evil threat without our help. I am a 1st generation American and I believe in the USA and regardless of what happens we will prevail and come out of this stronger than ever!
LONG LIVE AMERICA

um no...

the bitter truth, nothing lasts forever.

[Death Star]

Let's just keep printing more money and see what happens.

The federal reserve has us bent over but no one ever talks about that.

[Darkcloud72]

Isnt that people were saying back in the late 1970's? Trying times of the past has always produced a great leader to come forth and lead us through tough times. Just like Reagan came about at the right time to undo the mess of Carter. Now the question is who will that be?

[Plasmaball]

Touche' however it was dismissed until recently, I wonder why?:think:

You will notice a trend around these parts where people will bash it till it really happens, and then it will be like they were with you the whole time from the start of it.

When all one has to do is go back and search out people saying it was nuts or just ignoring it outright.

[Plasmaball]

This is scary..

no its logical

[AeroEngineer]

You could see this coming long before Obama...

[AeroEngineer]

Can we get off the dollar standard too?

[DougBH]

You could see this coming long before Obama...

Yes, but if I were holding the dollar (darn, I am) then I might have waited until the end of Bush to see if the U.S. was going to look after its most important international and diplomatic asset, the value of the dollar. When I saw the current administration begin its stimulus and blind spending programs, I would have concluded that the U.S. had given up on the dollar. I can't blame them. That is something we should have been looking after. We have not and show no signs of doing so into the future.

[Buschb]

Some of us were saying this would happen in 07 when I joined here, we were laughed at and called kooks if my memory serves correctly.

This is only happening on O dumb one's watch, it didn't start there.



February 15, 2006 ...the one who shall not be named


Realizing the world was embarking on something new and mind-boggling, elite money managers, with especially strong support from U.S. authorities, struck an agreement with OPEC to price oil in U.S. dollars exclusively for all worldwide transactions.

This gave the dollar a special place among world currencies and in essence “backed” the dollar with oil. In return, the U.S. promised to protect the various oil-rich kingdoms in the Persian Gulf against threat of invasion or domestic coup.

This arrangement helped ignite the radical Islamic movement among those who resented our influence in the region. The arrangement gave the dollar artificial strength, with tremendous financial benefits for the United States. It allowed us to export our monetary inflation by buying oil and other goods at a great discount as dollar influence flourished.


The economic law that honest exchange demands only things of real value as currency cannot be repealed. The chaos that one day will ensue from our 35-year experiment with worldwide fiat money will require a return to money of real value.

We will know that day is approaching when oil-producing countries demand gold, or its equivalent, for their oil rather than dollars or Euros. The sooner the better.

[fava]

So, now Obama will start drilling for oil offshore and in Alaska to counter the Arabs?
Will Obama ramp up nuclear production?
Will Obama start movement to the MIT integrated transportation system to cut fuel usage?
No. Of course not. Obama will ask GE to produce 5 more windmills.
That will fix everything.

[BravoBuzzard]

I wonder what would happen if we were to start drilling in all the reserves we've found over the last decade? In addition, how would the world perceive us if we were to build new refineries as well?

[PheonixOps]

Wow, the beat goes on......................... Now instead of "it's Boooouuuusssssshhhhhhh's fault!", some of you guys will now say "OBaaaaaamaaaa's fault."
I think that this was a long time coming.....................................

[Buschb]

I wonder what would happen if we were to start drilling in all the reserves we've found over the last decade? In addition, how would the world perceive us if we were to build new refineries as well?

That's what we need to due...explore every option..

[James Juno]

maybe we can go back to confed dollars...:rolleyes:

... and while we're at it, defend our country with musket balls.

[PheonixOps]

I wonder what would happen if we were to start drilling in all the reserves we've found over the last decade? In addition, how would the world perceive us if we were to build new refineries as well?

I think that we should do the above. But isn't there something more to it? I recall some people telling me that the oil has to go on the world market or something like that. I would like to see us be somewhat "energy independent".

[ChemProf]

I was wondering the same, I'm not an economist and fully admit I know very little to nothing about it. What if we decided to drill our reserves and began a real drive towards finding other sources of energy while we used our oil. Would America, after getting off of oil and selling the technology to other counties, effectively collapse other "oil dependent" economies? I don't have the answers to energy independence etc, it is more of a hypothetical question, I'm a chemist after all.

[Conan]

So, now Obama will start drilling for oil offshore and in Alaska to counter the Arabs?
Will Obama ramp up nuclear production?
Will Obama start movement to the MIT integrated transportation system to cut fuel usage?
No. Of course not. Obama will ask GE to produce 5 more windmills.
That will fix everything.

And not to mention Obama and company will push the cap and tax....farther stifling any development in energy independents.

[Conan]

Wow, the beat goes on......................... Now instead of "it's Boooouuuusssssshhhhhhh's fault!", some of you guys will now say "OBaaaaaamaaaa's fault."
I think that this was a long time coming.....................................

I guess you have reading comprehensive problem. People here are not blaming Obama. They are pointing fingers at run away spending.

[johnrocks]

Drilling here isn't going to strengthen the dollar, hell, I had soon buy their resources and save ours but yeah, drill baby drill, as long as it is free markets deciding this and not some bone headed,feel good slogan driving it.

[Ninjacorpse]

Yeah we are screwed, yes its been in the making and yes politicians are ignoring or better yet throwing more **** on the fire.

[SonsofLiberty]

I have been warning about this for some time. Does anyone think this could be occurring in part due to "blowback"? silly me....we know there is no such thing.

We can bet that the dollar will have a steady decline for the foreseeable future. This also explains China's strong efforts to buy gold recently.

[SonsofLiberty]

Yeah we are screwed, yes its been in the making and yes politicians are ignoring or better yet throwing more **** on the fire.

Don't worry, they won't do a thing about this threat. Instead we'll just spend more money.

[avergbear]

Im not convinced that the oil in the arctic refuge is viable. Some people seem to be of the opinion that it is not a giant reservoir like other oil fields, but rather small pockets of oil scattered all over the damn place-- a place where heavy machinery is liable to get stuck unless you put gravel roads in everywhere.

it would be years before you saw anything of any kind of value come from there best case scenario.

Your foolish, political based opinion means so much to a family trying to put food on the table and paying $80 for a tank of gas to get to work.

Something I’ll bet you have never had to do.

[betwixt]

I have been warning about this for some time. Does anyone think this could be occurring in part due to "blowback"? silly me....we know there is no such thing.

We can bet that the dollar will have a steady decline for the foreseeable future. This also explains China's strong efforts to buy gold recently.


I was wondering when you were going to stroll in. Seems I remember you stating something like this just last week.

So, it's all your fault, you just haaaaaad to go and say something...:mrgreen:

[johnrocks]

I have been warning about this for some time. Does anyone think this could be occurring in part due to "blowback"? silly me....we know there is no such thing.

We can bet that the dollar will have a steady decline for the foreseeable future. This also explains China's strong efforts to buy gold recently.

Yep, while we borrowed to the hilt to "spread mockracy", we were being played like a cheap banjo.

[Ninjacorpse]

I was wondering when you were going to stroll in. Seems I remember you stating something like this just last week.

So, it's all your fault, you just haaaaaad to go and say something...:mrgreen:

Spoke it into existence. :snooty:

[SonsofLiberty]

I was wondering when you were going to stroll in. Seems I remember you stating something like this just last week.

So, it's all your fault, you just haaaaaad to go and say something...:mrgreen:

lol Sorry I was working late so my taxes could pay for others health care.

I've been warning about this for a few years. People I cannot stress enough that you take necessary steps RIGHT NOW. Even if their 9 yr plan does not succeed, you can bet it will have a negative effect on our currency. And this is regardless of our spending habits, which will only add to the problems.

And still the people of this country have no idea what they are in store for.

BTW, I'm glad to see some people are actually listening to what I say ;)

[SonsofLiberty]

Spoke it into existence. :snooty:

should we lynch me now?

[E7ALR]

I think that we should do the above. But isn't there something more to it? I recall some people telling me that the oil has to go on the world market or something like that. I would like to see us be somewhat "energy independent".The Us buying oil produced in the US is placing that oil in the world market. The result is that the US buys oil produced in dollars and does not there fore buy oil currently produced somewhere else, produced in a country that uses a different currency and then sold into the world market. Now that oil production from the other countries still exists in the market, adding to supply and thus lowering prices for everyone.

[SonsofLiberty]

hey did I kill the thread?

[SonsofLiberty]

Imagine if we had kept our old currency backed by gold and silver....... none of this would even matter. The only reason we care is because we know our dollar has no intrinsic value.

[TCUFan]

and what are they going to use to replace it?

ill believe it when i see it on bloomberg

That. There. Right there. That attitude of, "Well, what are they gonna do about it? Use someone else's money?"

If our currency becomes devalued enough, you're damn right they will.

TCUFan

[betwixt]

lol Sorry I was working late so my taxes could pay for others health care.

I've been warning about this for a few years. People I cannot stress enough that you take necessary steps RIGHT NOW. Even if their 9 yr plan does not succeed, you can bet it will have a negative effect on our currency. And this is regardless of our spending habits, which will only add to the problems.

And still the people of this country have no idea what they are in store for.

BTW, I'm glad to see some people are actually listening to what I say ;)


Pfffft, don't go getting a "big head" or anything..



Mr. Smartypants :cool:

[SonsofLiberty]

That. There. Right there. That attitude of, "Well, what are they gonna do about it? Use someone else's money?"

If our currency becomes devalued enough, you're damn right they will.

TCUFan

It amazes me how so many people believe that the US can never be anything but number one.

I bet people in Rome, Greece etc etc believed the same.

Incidentally, Argentina was the 9th largest economy at one point last century, yet their currency imploded.

[Kentucky Thinker]

I wonder what would happen if we were to start drilling in all the reserves we've found over the last decade? In addition, how would the world perceive us if we were to build new refineries as well?

In order for that to happen our "leadership" would actually have to think of United States citizens first. Considering most of them are globalists it will never happen.

[SonsofLiberty]

Pfffft, don't go getting a "big head" or anything..



Mr. Smartypants :cool:

I cannot tell you how badly I want to be wrong and be mocked by all.

[PheonixOps]

Im not convinced that the oil in the arctic refuge is viable. Some people seem to be of the opinion that it is not a giant reservoir like other oil fields, but rather small pockets of oil scattered all over the damn place-- a place where heavy machinery is liable to get stuck unless you put gravel roads in everywhere.

it would be years before you saw anything of any kind of value come from there best case scenario.

What about the shale and what about drilling off of the coast of Florida and towards Cuba where the Chinese are drilling or thinking about drilling? Years go by very fast, I think it would be a good investment for our future. Hopefully we will get a Governor here in Virginia that will allow offshore drilling for natural gas. I think that McDonnell will be the one....... that's who my vote is going for in November.

[betwixt]

I cannot tell you how badly I want to be wrong and be mocked by all.

Yes sir, all joking aside, my fervernt hope is that it is nothing like it's looking to be.

[SonsofLiberty]

the gold standard had a great deal of problems associated with it-- it is overly simplistic to say that the problems we face today wouldn't be there had we not diverted from the gold standard.

we might not have gotten out of the depression if we were on the gold standard-- once your out of gold, you cannot do anything to give the economy a push.

We were still on the gold standard when we got out of the Great Depression. You seem to ascribe to the theory that govt can prevent recessions or minimize them. They can only do this by entering the market themselves. They can do this by either:

1- taking money from us through taxes, which never helps an economy; or

2- printing money

The latter is inflationary (decreases the wealth of people holding dollars), discourages savings, which ultimately negatively effects capital investment. If you look at a graph of our govt's spending, notice the point at which we went completely off the gold standard (1971) and the spike in govt spending.

Fiat currencies ALWAYS collapse. They do so because govt;s will print and print (a hidden tax) rather than raise taxes.

When govt prints money to soften a recession, or prevent it all they do is extend the bubble thereby causing a greater correction that will have to occur one day. Aren't we seeing this right now with real estate? (and our currency)

[tom1468]

So, now Obama will start drilling for oil offshore and in Alaska to counter the Arabs?
Will Obama ramp up nuclear production?
Will Obama start movement to the MIT integrated transportation system to cut fuel usage?
No. Of course not. Obama will ask GE to produce 5 more windmills.
That will fix everything.
nope, their will be new bagger mowers for green energy

[PheonixOps]

I guess you have reading comprehensive problem. People here are not blaming Obama. They are pointing fingers at run away spending.

LOL, perhaps YOU are the one with the "reading comprehension problem". ;)

ARAB STATES LAUNCH SECRET MOVES WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FRANCE TO STOP USING DOLLAR FOR OIL TRADING... DEVELOPING...


On Drudge Reprot. More "Change We Can Believe In."

www.drudgereport.com

Go back to the first page and re-read some of the posts there.................

[PheonixOps]

Yep, while we borrowed to the hilt to "spread mockracy", we were being played like a cheap banjo.

Sad, but most likely true............

[PheonixOps]

The Us buying oil produced in the US is placing that oil in the world market. The result is that the US buys oil produced in dollars and does not there fore buy oil currently produced somewhere else, produced in a country that uses a different currency and then sold into the world market. Now that oil production from the other countries still exists in the market, adding to supply and thus lowering prices for everyone.

Well then that sounds like a good thing, right?

[PheonixOps]

the chinese off of cuba claim appears to be patently fake.


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/40776.html


As Congress has debated energy policy over the past several days, an unusual argument keeps surfacing in support of drilling off the U.S. coastline and in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Why, ask some Republicans, should the United States be thwarted from drilling in its own territory when just 50 miles off the Florida coastline the Chinese government is drilling for oil under Cuban leases?
Yet no one can prove that the Chinese are drilling anywhere off Cuba's shoreline. The China-Cuba connection is "akin to urban legend," said Sen. Mel Martinez, a Republican from Florida who opposes drilling off the coast of his state but who backs exploration in ANWR.
"China is not drilling in Cuba's Gulf of Mexico waters, period," said Jorge Pinon, an energy fellow with the Center for Hemispheric Policy at the University of Miami and an expert in oil exploration in the Gulf of Mexico. Martinez cited Pinon's research when he took to the Senate floor Wednesday to set the record straight.
Even so, the Chinese-drilling-in-Cuba legend has gained momentum and has been swept up in Republican arguments to open up more U.S. territory to domestic production.
Vice President Dick Cheney, in a speech Wednesday to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, picked up the refrain. Cheney quoted a column by George Will, who wrote last week that "drilling is under way 60 miles off Florida. The drilling is being done by China, in cooperation with Cuba, which is drilling closer to South Florida than U.S. companies are."
In his speech, Cheney described the Chinese as being "in cooperation with the Cuban government. Even the communists have figured out that a good answer to higher prices means more supply."
"But Congress says no to drilling in ANWR, no to drilling on the East Coast, no to drilling on the West Coast," Cheney added.









I don't know man. Hurricanes blast through the florida keys all of the time.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2005/sep/16/usnews.hurricanekatrina


apparently New Orleans is a big oil terminal, and the destruction resulted in an estimated 6 million gallons of oil being spilled...Exxon Valdez was 10 million...

the Chesapeake bay is way too important of a natural resource to waste. Hurricanes do hit there from time to time. You do realize that virtually ALL of the rockfish on the east coast( aka striped bass) spawn there in the winter, right?

Thanks for pointing these things out. How would drilling for natural gas, hurt the rockfish?

[PheonixOps]

not really. assuming the oil is actually economically recoverable and not TECHNICALLY recoverable, it would have an impact of about $1.50 on oil prices in 2020.

or about 2 percent of the current price of oil.

I'm pretty sure that you can see that I am open minded. Can you please post a link that supports the above claim?

[DougBH]

so what would have happened to the value of the dollar had the economic collapse been allowed to happen?

ie, where the banks that have been deemed too big to fail actually failed?

panic in the banking sector, contrary to popular opinion, is not a good thing. see 1873, 1907, 1929, 2008

That was the bailout. I was talking stimulus and healthcare.

[PheonixOps]

^ a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy#cite_ref-doeeia_23-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy#cite_ref-doeeia_23-1) c (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy#cite_ref-doeeia_23-2) d (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy#cite_ref-doeeia_23-3) e (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy#cite_ref-doeeia_23-4) f (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy#cite_ref-doeeia_23-5) g (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy#cite_ref-doeeia_23-6) United States. Department of Energy. Energy Information Administration. Analysis of Crude Oil Production in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/anwr/) SR/OIAF/2008-03. Washington, DC: GPO. 2008.

that was 2008, with the previous administrations appointees. Not that its going to matter that much-- its either feasible or it isn't.

Thank you for the links! I will check them out.

[Jabbamagnus]

So, now Obama will start drilling for oil offshore and in Alaska to counter the Arabs?
Will Obama ramp up nuclear production?
Will Obama start movement to the MIT integrated transportation system to cut fuel usage?
No. Of course not. Obama will ask GE to produce 5 more windmills.
That will fix everything.

If this turns out to be true, I expect that is what the candidates running against Obama in 2012 will say.

[TerriC]

DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW!!

Ok, so, not being an ecomonics guru, I have no real idea what this will do to us, can someone explain it in layman's terms please?

[avergbear]

DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW!!

Ok, so, not being an ecomonics guru, I have no real idea what this will do to us, can someone explain it in layman's terms please?

I layman’s terms:

Your family is hungry. You import all of your food from people that don’t like you.
They continually raise the price and play games with your families food supply.


Finally, you have had enough. You buy some chickens and plant a garden.


Got it?

[SonsofLiberty]

DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW!!

Ok, so, not being an ecomonics guru, I have no real idea what this will do to us, can someone explain it in layman's terms please?

If we lose dollar hegemony (the basic premise that international exchanges are done in dollar) it will mean that demand for our dollar will decrease. Since we have a fiat currency, meaning there is no backing to it (ie gold, silver) it obtains its value strictly on a supply/demand basis. Consequently if demand for our currency drops, and this would cause it to drop precipitously, we can expect a sharp fall in the value of the dollar. This is inflation.

When the dollar decreases in value costs of goods go up. Many think that inflation is the rise in the price of goods, this is incorrect. Goods are perceived to be increasing in price, but in reality it is just that the currency has lost buying power. (example. Back in the 1920's a new car was about $500. And ounce of gold (which still circulated as coinage) was $20. Therefore, 25 ounces of gold would buy you a new car. Today a new car is roughly $25,000 and an ounce of gold in $1000. Again 25 ounces will buy you a new car. Now naturally this can ebb and flow, but it remains fairly consistent.

Has this answered your question?

[TerriC]

I layman’s terms:

Your family is hungry. You import all of your food from people that don’t like you.
They continually raise the price and play games with your families food supply.


Finally, you have had enough. You buy some chickens and plant a garden.


Got it?

Yup, got that!

[James Juno]

If we lose dollar hegemony (the basic premise that international exchanges are done in dollar) it will mean that demand for our dollar will decrease. Since we have a fiat currency, meaning there is no backing to it (ie gold, silver) it obtains its value strictly on a supply/demand basis. Consequently if demand for our currency drops, and this would cause it to drop precipitously, we can expect a sharp fall in the value of the dollar. This is inflation.

When the dollar decreases in value costs of goods go up. Many think that inflation is the rise in the price of goods, this is incorrect. Goods are perceived to be increasing in price, but in reality it is just that the currency has lost buying power. (example. Back in the 1920's a new car was about $500. And ounce of gold (which still circulated as coinage) was $20. Therefore, 25 ounces of gold would buy you a new car. Today a new car is roughly $25,000 and an ounce of gold in $1000. Again 25 ounces will buy you a new car. Now naturally this can ebb and flow, but it remains fairly consistent.

Has this answered your question?

Well written.

[TerriC]

If we lose dollar hegemony (the basic premise that international exchanges are done in dollar) it will mean that demand for our dollar will decrease. Since we have a fiat currency, meaning there is no backing to it (ie gold, silver) it obtains its value strictly on a supply/demand basis. Consequently if demand for our currency drops, and this would cause it to drop precipitously, we can expect a sharp fall in the value of the dollar. This is inflation.

When the dollar decreases in value costs of goods go up. Many think that inflation is the rise in the price of goods, this is incorrect. Goods are perceived to be increasing in price, but in reality it is just that the currency has lost buying power. (example. Back in the 1920's a new car was about $500. And ounce of gold (which still circulated as coinage) was $20. Therefore, 25 ounces of gold would buy you a new car. Today a new car is roughly $25,000 and an ounce of gold in $1000. Again 25 ounces will buy you a new car. Now naturally this can ebb and flow, but it remains fairly consistent.

Has this answered your question?

Yeah, and I dont like it.

So, the loss of using the dollar to purchase oil will make it less desirable and we risk the possibility of the dollar being the standard in all other trading? Making things even worse...

[SonsofLiberty]

Well written.

Thank you

[SonsofLiberty]

Yeah, and I dont like it.

So, the loss of using the dollar to purchase oil will make it less desirable and we risk the possibility of the dollar being the standard in all other trading? Making things even worse...

It is likely that if we lose oil trades being conducted in dollars, other products will follow. We will likely be no different than any other country. The problem here is that we have been exporting our inflation for years. If demand for our dollar falls, that inflation will come home. (this is a simplistic explanation of course).

If we lose dollar hegemony I would expect a best case scenario to be double digit inflation greater than that in the late 70's. Worst case would be hyperinflation.

My guess is that we will have inflation north of 20%, likely not hyperinflation though. Keep in mind though that these rates can quickly destroy a country. Many economists presently believe that our CPI (inflation rate) is understated by about 5-7%. I agree it is understated, I would lean closer to 3-5% myself.

[SonsofLiberty]

Yeah, and I dont like it.

So, the loss of using the dollar to purchase oil will make it less desirable and we risk the possibility of the dollar being the standard in all other trading? Making things even worse...

OH and yes things could become much worse. Why hyperinflation is certainly a possibility is because this situation would cause interest rates to rise harshly, thereby slowing the economy and receipts to our treasury. The worst part is that our debt service as a country would go up harshly as well, especially since most of our debt is in short term treasuries. Many nations do not want to tie up their money for a long duration with us because they see what may be coming. Our govt was also complicit in this too as short term treasuries pay less, causing our debt service to be less each year.

[TerriC]

OH and yes things could become much worse. Why hyperinflation is certainly a possibility is because this situation would cause interest rates to rise harshly, thereby slowing the economy and receipts to our treasury. The worst part is that our debt service as a country would go up harshly as well, especially since most of our debt is in short term treasuries. Many nations do not want to tie up their money for a long duration with us because they see what may be coming. Our govt was also complicit in this too as short term treasuries pay less, causing our debt service to be less each year.

This is really really bad then.... with the inflation will come more job losses, business closings large and small. The first things to go will be cell phones and internet access, then cable. Let alone purchasing new items.

I would think that there would be a huge increase in farming locally, local made items and such?

[SonsofLiberty]

This is really really bad then.... with the inflation will come more job losses, business closings large and small. The first things to go will be cell phones and internet access, then cable. Let alone purchasing new items.

I would think that there would be a huge increase in farming locally, local made items and such?

Crime will rise as well. People will mostly spend solely on necessities.

But look at the bright side, should we get hyperinflation you may be able to pay off your mortgage with a days worth of wages.....if you can find work.

Take a look at Zimbabwe. This is an extreme example, but it shows you what hyperinflation does.

Oh and if this conversation hasn't scared you yet, take a look at the following graph which illustrates how much we have expanded the money supply (printed money). Take special notice to the last year.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/AMBNS

[James Juno]

Crime will rise as well. People will mostly spend solely on necessities.

But look at the bright side, should we get hyperinflation you may be able to pay off your mortgage with a days worth of wages.....if you can find work.

Take a look at Zimbabwe. This is an extreme example, but it shows you what hyperinflation does.

Oh and if this conversation hasn't scared you yet, take a look at the following graph which illustrates how much we have expanded the money supply (printed money). Take special notice to the last year.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/AMBNS

We are in serious trouble.

[SonsofLiberty]

We are in serious trouble.

Hopefully not, but frankly I do not see a way out that does not knock us down at least a few notches. I think the days of our dominating the world are nearing an end. It wasn't long ago (19th century) that England was the financial epicenter of the world.

Anyhow, our actions now are going to have a great effect in the years to come. I don't think we are going to enter an economic collapse immediately but I do think it is in our near future. SS and Medicare will become a crisis in the coming years and knowing our govt they will just print more money.

We are not just building a house of cards, but we are doing so in front of a fan,

[TerriC]

Crime will rise as well. People will mostly spend solely on necessities.

But look at the bright side, should we get hyperinflation you may be able to pay off your mortgage with a days worth of wages.....if you can find work.

Take a look at Zimbabwe. This is an extreme example, but it shows you what hyperinflation does.

Oh and if this conversation hasn't scared you yet, take a look at the following graph which illustrates how much we have expanded the money supply (printed money). Take special notice to the last year.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/AMBNS

Maybe my husband will still have a job, he is a cop.

[cshoff]

I have been warning about this for some time. Does anyone think this could be occurring in part due to "blowback"? silly me....we know there is no such thing.

We can bet that the dollar will have a steady decline for the foreseeable future. This also explains China's strong efforts to buy gold recently.

Yeah, a number of us kook, nutjob, extremists warned of this. But, we are kook, nutjob, extremists, so what do you expect? :whistle:

[TerriC]

Hopefully not, but frankly I do not see a way out that does not knock us down at least a few notches. I think the days of our dominating the world are nearing an end. It wasn't long ago (19th century) that England was the financial epicenter of the world.

Anyhow, our actions now are going to have a great effect in the years to come. I don't think we are going to enter an economic collapse immediately but I do think it is in our near future. SS and Medicare will become a crisis in the coming years and knowing our govt they will just print more money.

We are not just building a house of cards, but we are doing so in front of a fan,

Ok, so I think we could survive an economic collapse, it would be ugly, but survivable, the thing that scares me about that is, how will the America-haters handle that? What kind of terrorist attacks, or attacks/invasions could we expect during those kinds of times?

How long and what would it take to recover financially (sans major attacks)?

[DougBH]

whats the problem with the stimulus? the problem right now is the health of the economy is based on price levels of real estate. Should real estate values continue to plummet, the losses experienced by the banking sector will multiply, and then the tab by the tax payer will be even higher.

and in my job field, were it not for the stimulus, there is a good chance the job losses would be incredibly high. companies are barely hanging on as it is, and everyone is burning through the backlog of work they have. its getting scary.

This whole problem was caused by too much spending and too much debt. The alleged resolution: spend more and get more into debt.
Housing prices are not the solution. Reliance on the price of houses was the problem. This whole thing occurred before hundred years ago when tulip bulbs were introduced into Holland. People kept bidding up the price of tulip bulbs to what today would be tens of thousands of dollars. Eventually people realized this was a false economy and the price of tulip bulbs collapsed. The saving of Holland would not have been found in having the state boost the price of tulip bulbs with stimulus packages.

The debt needs to be paid off and people need to save. Replacing one bubble with a bigger bubble is not the solution.

[cshoff]

Hopefully not, but frankly I do not see a way out that does not knock us down at least a few notches. I think the days of our dominating the world are nearing an end. It wasn't long ago (19th century) that England was the financial epicenter of the world.

Anyhow, our actions now are going to have a great effect in the years to come. I don't think we are going to enter an economic collapse immediately but I do think it is in our near future. SS and Medicare will become a crisis in the coming years and knowing our govt they will just print more money.

We are not just building a house of cards, but we are doing so in front of a fan,

And they are currently in the middle of trying to add another huge social program to our already bankrupt programs we now have. I have no doubt that they will keep printing money to feed their "fix".

It appears as though the house of cards is not only in front of a fan, but it is actually between a fan on one side, and a raging fire on the other.

[TerriC]

So, in an economics collapse, when millions upon millions lose their jobs... cant pay their mortgages... what happens with the houses? When millions of home loans are in default, will people just continue to stay in their homes, or will they be forced out and millions of houses sit empty and fall apart? Either way, the banks lose...

[cshoff]

So, in an economics collapse, when millions upon millions lose their jobs... cant pay their mortgages... what happens with the houses? When millions of home loans are in default, will people just continue to stay in their homes, or will they be forced out and millions of houses sit empty and fall apart? Either way, the banks lose...

Our banking system will be one of the hardest hit sectors. We've already closed nearly 100 banks across the country just this year. You can expect that number to go up exponentially.

I think you would do well to research what happened with defaults during the Great Depression. The people found an interesting way to deal with foreclosed homes and insure that in a lot of cases, families weren't forced to live on the streets. Of course, not everyone was so fortunate. You should also read about the "Hoovervilles" of the day.

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

Crime will rise as well. People will mostly spend solely on necessities.

But look at the bright side, should we get hyperinflation you may be able to pay off your mortgage with a days worth of wages.....if you can find work.

Take a look at Zimbabwe. This is an extreme example, but it shows you what hyperinflation does.

Oh and if this conversation hasn't scared you yet, take a look at the following graph which illustrates how much we have expanded the money supply (printed money). Take special notice to the last year.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/AMBNS

"The team gotta eat, seeds is hungry/
That's why we ain't scared to dump on people/
Our guns is chunky/
Usually we bust people down with bats/
Swell up they joints, elbows, wrists, shins get cracked."

[avergbear]

Maybe my husband will still have a job, he is a cop.

He may….

As long as he doesn’t “behave stupidly.”

[WildRose]

ARAB STATES LAUNCH SECRET MOVES WITH CHINA, RUSSIA, FRANCE TO STOP USING DOLLAR FOR OIL TRADING... DEVELOPING...


On Drudge Reprot. More "Change We Can Believe In."

www.drudgereport.com (http://www.drudgereport.com)
This is not a "secret move", this has been the big talk in financial sectors for about five months due to our current administrations and the Federal Reserves' current monetary policy.

More hope and change we can count on.

[TerriC]

He may….

As long as he doesn’t “behave stupidly.”

Ha, well then we may not be so lucky, he has already said that he will never go door to door taking people's guns, forcing swine flu shots, or do anything that will be an outright violation of the Constitution, so he may not get to keep his job.... LOL!

[Physics Hunter]

"The team gotta eat, seeds is hungry/
That's why we ain't scared to dump on people/
Our guns is chunky/
Usually we bust people down with bats/
Swell up they joints, elbows, wrists, shins get cracked."

Good luck in the city Tommy. Distances are a little longer out here.

[nunyadb]

what makes you so sure that any of those reserves are good or viable?

we know there is oil there, but it is not going to be easy to get-- and at what price level is it worth it?

i would be more interested in the alberta tar sands as being viable than the arctic refuge

That's because you don't know the oil business.
Basically, you're ignorant.
We can get the oil, that's not a problem.
Just get them the hell out of our way and let us do our job.

[TerriC]

Our banking system will be one of the hardest hit sectors. We've already closed nearly 100 banks across the country just this year. You can expect that number to go up exponentially.

I think you would do well to research what happened with defaults during the Great Depression. The people found an interesting way to deal with foreclosed homes and insure that in a lot of cases, families weren't forced to live on the streets. Of course, not everyone was so fortunate. You should also read about the "Hoovervilles" of the day.

Would it be possible to just take to the hills, find some land miles and miles away from anyone, and squat on the land, grow a garden and build your own little cabin, without getting run off the land. I cant see the government allowing a "hooverville" or "obamaville" creep up on city property or anyone else on their private property, not these days.

[cshoff]

Would it be possible to just take to the hills, find some land miles and miles away from anyone, and squat on the land, grow a garden and build your own little cabin, without getting run off the land. I cant see the government allowing a "hooverville" or "obamaville" creep up on city property or anyone else on their private property, not these days.

There isn't any land that isn't owned by someone; owned by an individual, a company or business, a corporation, or a local, state, or Federal government. My guess is that you would have a hard time finding anyone willing to share. ;)

[WildRose]

That's because you don't know the oil business.
Basically, you're ignorant.
We can get the oil, that's not a problem.
Just get them the hell out of our way and let us do our job.If it couldn't be done, and done profitibly our Nations oil companties wouldn't be willing to sell their collective souls to get access.

[Ninjacorpse]

There isn't any land that isn't owned by someone; owned by an individual, a company or business, a corporation, or a local, state, or Federal government. My guess is that you would have a hard time finding anyone willing to share. ;)

Word on the street is john has lots of land with ponds and supplies, i bet he would share lol.

[avergbear]

Ha, well then we may not be so lucky, he has already said that he will never go door to door taking people's guns, forcing swine flu shots, or do anything that will be an outright violation of the Constitution, so he may not get to keep his job.... LOL!

Well…as a cancelation prize, perhaps he can have a beer with Obama.

I’m sure he would be thrilled.

[cshoff]

Word on the street is john has lots of land with ponds and supplies, i bet he would share lol.

I think you are just trying to figure out a way to get down there and hook up with his daughter. :naughty:

:))

[nunyadb]

If it couldn't be done, and done profitibly our Nations oil companties wouldn't be willing to sell their collective souls to get access.

WR, the thing is, if they'd just let loose of the permits, stop the damn law suits
that delay everything, stick with some reasonably stringent safety and enviro
regs and just let us do our damned jobs, we could honestly have new oil flowing
into the system in less than 6 months in a lot of these places.

As long as we're held down by hostile policies and interminable lawsuits,
we can't do squat.
The legal battles alone sometimes as much as triple our costs in doing anything.

It's ridiculous.

But, **** it, I've said this stuff a thousand times If I've said it once.
And there's always some ass hat that comes along with the latest and greatest
2 year old "government approved" numbers and says
" A Billion bbls of oil won't help "
so everybody goes back to sleep.

Guess what, the Fed Gov FINALLY started releasing the numbers that the oil
companies had for internal estimates of their own on the Bakken field
just in the last couple of months.

The thing is, the Oil companies KNOW there's a couple of hundred billion bbls
of oil here , and the jackass government won't let them get to it.

"Oh, we don't have the rigs or the crews to do it anyway"

Damn right we don't, but if allowed to actually go to ****ing work,
inside of a couple of years we would have.

"It won't help NOW"
No, it won't , it can't, but if we'd been allowed to do so 5 years ago, or even
last year, it WOULD BE HELPING ALREADY.

Stupid stupid stupid short sighted bastards.

[DougBH]

so what though?

the market dictates the price, not the government. Those bad loans are made somewhere on the balance sheet of these banks. Citigroup, Wells, Bank of America, all disguised the failure of banks by gobbling them up.

If people are not making payments on mortgages they hurt the banks in two ways. 1 is that they are not receiving money coming in for the asset portion of the balance sheet. two, they are increasing the liability portion by reducing the resell value of the MBS. So long as the expectation is that things will get worse, prices will fall and the willingness to buy these toxic assets will be less.

it is quite frankly a dangerous situation. shame on the american people and the people involved who in their arrogance forgot the lessons of the great depression. the banks and the related satelites did not appreciate the risk of a global collapse.

while I do agree that real estate prices shouldn't be this important to the econ, the fact is at the moment they are.

and deflation is just as scary to the econ as inflation.

Bubbles happen. Bubbles burst. The only question is how bad the government can make one by trying to blow it up bigger. They did a good job helping to create this one.
They did a good job making it bigger this time around.
I just hope they're near the end for this bubble.

[Ninjacorpse]

I think you are just trying to figure out a way to get down there and hook up with his daughter. :naughty:

:))

He is using his daughter to lure me down their, I cannot blame him, I would want a son in law like me too. :razz:

[nunyadb]

You know what, I think a really good economic collapse would be good for us.

[avergbear]

You know what, I think a really good economic collapse would be good for us.

In some ways, I agree with you.

[Ingator]

You know what, I think a really good economic collapse would be good for us.

Well I beat ya all to it. Na na na na boo boo. As you know I've been laid off since march with no light in sight.

[nunyadb]

Well I beat ya all to it. Na na na na boo boo. As you know I've been laid off since march with no light in sight.

Ingator, I want this to hit the bastards that pushed for the policies that caused it.
I want it to hit the idiot liberal "save the planet" eco freaks and all the rest of the
people that went out of their way to kill every means of our own manufacturing
base being globally competitive and forcing them out of the country.

I want this to hit the ignorant bastards that pushed so hard for the policies that
caused this mess and I want it to hit them HARD.

[WildRose]

WR, the thing is, if they'd just let loose of the permits, stop the damn law suits
that delay everything, stick with some reasonably stringent safety and enviro
regs and just let us do our damned jobs, we could honestly have new oil flowing
into the system in less than 6 months in a lot of these places.

As long as we're held down by hostile policies and interminable lawsuits,
we can't do squat.
The legal battles alone sometimes as much as triple our costs in doing anything.

It's ridiculous.

But, **** it, I've said this stuff a thousand times If I've said it once.
And there's always some ass hat that comes along with the latest and greatest
2 year old "government approved" numbers and says
" A Billion bbls of oil won't help "
so everybody goes back to sleep.

Guess what, the Fed Gov FINALLY started releasing the numbers that the oil
companies had for internal estimates of their own on the Bakken field
just in the last couple of months.

The thing is, the Oil companies KNOW there's a couple of hundred billion bbls
of oil here , and the jackass government won't let them get to it.

"Oh, we don't have the rigs or the crews to do it anyway"

Damn right we don't, but if allowed to actually go to ****ing work,
inside of a couple of years we would have.

"It won't help NOW"
No, it won't , it can't, but if we'd been allowed to do so 5 years ago, or even
last year, it WOULD BE HELPING ALREADY.

Stupid stupid stupid short sighted bastards.We could create 3-5 million new, good paying jobs in less than a year, ten to twenty million over the next five years and greatly improve our National and Economic Security in the process simply by doing what I suggested.

You are preaching to the choir.

I have a feeling that the retarded elephant that is the Republican Party may well have figured that out as well, and will be using that as their main platform in 2010 and 2012.

If they haven't figured it out, that elephant has outlived it's usefulness.

[JMikey]

Something like this has long been predicted by Austrian economists. It is an inevitable certainty due to the nature of government and central banks.

Republicans and Democrats have been blazing the path for many years. It's too bad it takes the actual playing out of stuff like this to get people to wake up.

[Proud Mom and Teacher]

Hmmm. I wonder how much we import from China. Too bad we don't drill here. That's not the liberal way. (Why is that, btw? I don't think I've ever asked a lib why drilling here is bad...)

[nunyadb]

We could create 3-5 million new, good paying jobs in less than a year, ten to twenty million over the next five years and greatly improve our National and Economic Security in the process simply by doing what I suggested.

You are preaching to the choir.

I have a feeling that the retarded elephant that is the Republican Party may well have figured that out as well, and will be using that as their main platform in 2010 and 2012.

If they haven't figured it out, that elephant has outlived it's usefulness.



That elephant outlived it's usefulness the day they put John McCain up for POTUS

[Ingator]

Ingator, I want this to hit the bastards that pushed for the policies that caused it.
I want it to hit the idiot liberal "save the planet" eco freaks and all the rest of the
people that went out of their way to kill every means of our own manufacturing
base being globally competitive and forcing them out of the country.

I want this to hit the ignorant bastards that pushed so hard for the policies that
caused this mess and I want it to hit them HARD.

That would be a nice wake up for them. Then again, most of them are so brainwashed, they would probably transfer the blame to something meaningless, while they continue what got us here.
Anyway I hear ya. And I'm off to bed.
Take care

[nunyadb]

Hmmm. I wonder how much we import from China. Too bad we don't drill here. That's not the liberal way. (Why is that, btw? I don't think I've ever asked a lib why drilling here is bad...)

They first claim that we don't have any oil in amounts worth having.
When that gets proved wrong, they then claim it would take too long to get it.
So it's not worth starting the project in the first place.
When that argument fails they move on to the environment and the
great importance to the planet of a damned caribou not having to walk
10 feet out of it's way or a spotted owl or a fringed moth or some other
********.
When that doesn't get it, then they bring out the global warming
"save the planet" crap.

All the while, we get broker and deeper in debt.

[blackcatrun]

and what are they going to use to replace it?

ill believe it when i see it on bloomberg

You wont..until way too to late.

The feds in serouse problems,Washington D.C. is spending well beyond mad.

They have been making this move to dump the doller as the global currency ever sence the houses bailed out FM/FM and AIG.

So far more than half of the money to bail out these failing corperations vanished..the feds refuse to disclose where.
AIG is wavering again behind the big letters. We are buying our own depts.
The markets are shrinking fast as that happens of course it looks like we are making tiny progress.

THE ONLY thing holding America from the brink is our trade.
obama has not ignored that either. This all is done perpousefully and with the full understanding that if they can distroy the nations capitalist system they can place whatever rules and regulations they please. Keeping the military in conflict reduces the chances they will inact the constitutional law they swore to uphold.


When the doller does go bust and it will be soon it will be time to do things the constitutional way..It's gonna be a bloody mess no matter what way I look at it.

[bloodAnDthunder]

This petro-dollar thing isn't new news. It's been in the works for awhile now.

Read up about Saddam's Iraq before the 2003 US invasion, he changed out of the petro-dollar (probably to an attempt to undermine the USD). When the Iraq war was 'won' the oil sales were switched back to USD. Iran announced (I think last year) their oil bourse, and I'm pretty sure they no longer sell oil in USD. Venezuala has threatened to start doing this for quite a few years.

There have been numerous reports in the last 5 years of the OPEC nations stopping the USD, but I thought it was all crap until the credit crunch happened.

This petro-dollar thing IS going to end, China's been leading this thing and the end date for the switch is 2018. There's a few papers already released about it. If anyone wants references for the stuff i just spewed I can try to find them, I'm a bit lazy though ;D

[nunyadb]

This petro-dollar thing isn't new news. It's been in the works for awhile now.

Read up about Saddam's Iraq before the 2003 US invasion, he changed out of the petro-dollar (probably to an attempt to undermine the USD). When the Iraq war was 'won' the oil sales were switched back to USD. Iran announced (I think last year) their oil bourse, and I'm pretty sure they no longer sell oil in USD. Venezuala has threatened to start doing this for quite a few years.

There have been numerous reports in the last 5 years of the OPEC nations stopping the USD, but I thought it was all crap until the credit crunch happened.

This petro-dollar thing IS going to end, China's been leading this thing and the end date for the switch is 2018. There's a few papers already released about it. If anyone wants references for the stuff i just spewed I can try to find them, I'm a bit lazy though ;D

That's ok, be a bit lazy.
Sometimes I rather like the idea of people having to do their own
research for a change instead just going "Link ?",
Like that proves something.

[JohnRandolph]

The LRC (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/) blog says it better than can I:

Though conservatives call this important story “Arabs Plot to Drop the Dollar,” it’s simply self-defense. Or are other peoples just supposed to be kicked in the teeth by the Fed and like it? China, Russia, Japan, France, and Gulf Arab states seek to substitute for the dollar in oil transactions a basket of currencies including the yen, the yuan, the euro, and gold. Heroic. I’d like to use that myself. In fact, why isn’t the Fed’s crazed monetary expansion called a plot to harm others and regular Americans, to the benefit of the US state and its bankster and corporate allies? And if it does indicate another step in “The Demise of the Dollar,” all the fault is in Washington, DC–as usual.

[bloodAnDthunder]

That's ok, be a bit lazy.
Sometimes I rather like the idea of people having to do their own
research for a change instead just going "Link ?",
Like that proves something.

I always thought it was just conspiracy garbage, but I think China and the OPEC nations have gotten a little braver since the credit crunch. The Obama administration have a lot of work to do to fix the USA :(

[nunyadb]

I always thought it was just conspiracy garbage, but I think China and the OPEC nations have gotten a little braver since the credit crunch. The Obama administration have a lot of work to do to fix the USA :(

Well, their version of "fixing" the USA reminds me of when I
have the uncontrollable desire to take a sledgehammer to
my computer in order to "fix it".

Get ready for a really bumpy ride.

[Darkcloud72]

Ive been saying this for years to my friends and I am sure people here will think I am crazy. This country will see the emergence of a very strong 3rd party with nationalist tendencies. We have seen this play out several times throughout history and could very well happen here. The more people doubt it the more likely I think it could happen.

[nunyadb]

Ive been saying this for years to my friends and I am sure people here will think I am crazy. This country will see the emergence of a very strong 3rd party with nationalist tendencies. We have seen this play out several times throughout history and could very well happen here. The more people doubt it the more likely I think it could happen.

actually, I'm expecting it.
The 3rd party move is growing stronger, all it would take
is for one really big trigger to be pulled.
Don't know what that would be, but if the economy takes
another dive, that would pretty much clinch it.

[spinach]

Ive been saying this for years to my friends and I am sure people here will think I am crazy. This country will see the emergence of a very strong 3rd party with nationalist tendencies. We have seen this play out several times throughout history and could very well happen here. The more people doubt it the more likely I think it could happen.

after we have an economic collapse, the chances of that happening increase dramatically.

[nunyadb]

after we have an economic collapse, the chances of that happening increase dramatically.

Agreed.
Especially with some states starting to assert their rights of
self determination under the Constitution right now.

The move is accelerating.
All we need is the trigger event.

[bloodAnDthunder]

Ive been saying this for years to my friends and I am sure people here will think I am crazy. This country will see the emergence of a very strong 3rd party with nationalist tendencies. We have seen this play out several times throughout history and could very well happen here. The more people doubt it the more likely I think it could happen.

Nah, I don't think a 3rd party would happen. People in the USA are too in love with identifying themselves as a Democrat or Republican. It's like their ethnicity or something.

Edit: If nationalism does come, it'd be more likely to hijack one of the existing two parties

[Darkcloud72]

Well eventually when the masses wake up and see what has happened to their country they will demand action. Also the wealthy and powerful people of this country will fund and support this party. The real questions is whether it will be in a democratic form or a radical change in our political system

[spinach]

Well eventually when the masses wake up and see what has happened to their country they will demand action. Also the wealthy and powerful people of this country will fund and support this party. The real questions is whether it will be in a democratic form or a radical change in our political system

nationalist movements tend to have a charismatic leader, and pretty much turn corrupt after a short while.

charismatic leaders rule by emotion, and as anyone knows, to maintain "emotion" one has to suppress logic and reason, and instead paint a scapegoat.
It helps a lot if the scapegoat actually is evil.

consider hitler in ww2. He came to power because of the German people's plight of poverty, and that many Germans saw the treaty of versailles unfair, domineering, and evil.
hitler was able to whip up the people into a froth, with emotion, largely because his claims of the treaty being oppressive were true. And from that moment on, the people followed him.

It can happen here. We have a real scapegoat: the federal reserve, and liberal policy
And all it takes is some charismatic person to step up and use that to whip people into a froth. And such a person may well turn out to be a whackjob who seized the moment.

Some would say "there's no way Americans would follow a whackjob"
I bet German people thought that same thing about the German people in the very early 30's
and in addition, there's a whackjob in the WH as we speak, at this very moment-
fortunately for us he is not charismatic, and not competent

[nunyadb]

Well eventually when the masses wake up and see what has happened to their country they will demand action. Also the wealthy and powerful people of this country will fund and support this party. The real questions is whether it will be in a democratic form or a radical change in our political system

What I'm expecting from what the current signs are is the people to start
"demanding" that the Constitution be adhered to.
That will all by itself cause a large surge in national pride and a resurgence
of a more nationalistic spirit.

At first the wealthy and the powerful will avoid this new group like they have
the plague. Then, as they begin to realize that the old power structure is not
in real control any more, they'll start pumping money into "helping build" the
new party. In hopes of having some measure of actual control over it.

It may allow them to be players, but if I'm right, they won't have the control
that they are betting on attaining.

[bloodAnDthunder]

Well eventually when the masses wake up and see what has happened to their country they will demand action. Also the wealthy and powerful people of this country will fund and support this party. The real questions is whether it will be in a democratic form or a radical change in our political system

I hope you aren't saying nationalism is good

[spinach]

What I'm expecting from what the current signs are is the people to start
"demanding" that the Constitution be adhered to.
That will all by itself cause a large surge in national pride and a resurgence
of a more nationalistic spirit.

At first the wealthy and the powerful will avoid this new group like they have
the plague. Then, as they begin to realize that the old power structure is not
in real control any more, they'll start pumping money into "helping build" the
new party. In hopes of having some measure of actual control over it.

It may allow them to be players, but if I'm right, they won't have the control
that they are betting on attaining.

a nationalistic movement would overshoot.
it may well start out with the intention of adhering to the constitution. But a charismatic leader would be corrupted by the power, and end up believing "his own press releases".

I don't want any nationalist movement. they are just too dangerous. It would be better for the SANE people in government to stand up and fight the scumbags who are wrecking this nation. Regardless of party. But that requires courage, and political leaders of today have almost none

[spinach]

I hope you aren't saying nationalism is good

it's neither good nor bad.
But the track record of nationalist movements is that it often begets a dictator, war, and ruin.
which, is in effect, the opposite of what the movement was started for

[spinach]

I'm actually surprised the other nations of the world still use dollars at all, or buy treasuries.

we continue to abuse our finances, and that has only one end:

rejection of the dollar
dumping of treasuries.


just like piling up a bunch of newspapers- if you pile them high enough, they catch fire on their own

[nunyadb]

User X,
Developing our own resources can be done and be profitable.
Enviro nuts don't deserve their "day in court" when all regulations are being adhered to.

The problem isn't with the states, on land it is with the Bureau of Land Management.

There are many places inside this nation that have easily recovered oil.
Also many places on the continental shelf as well.

State agencies are not oil companies.
They do not use the same numbers because they don't know the
current technology as well as the people that develop it and use it.

That the Bakken Field is now estimated to have 25 times as much oil
(recoverable oil ) as the "initial estimates" from MMS and BLM should
tell you something.
If the oil companies actually thought that there was no real amounts
of recoverable oil there, they wouldn't have bothered in the first place.

Your government is lying to you.
Plain and simple.
People like you that buy into it are part of the problem, not the solution.

[nunyadb]

a nationalistic movement would overshoot.
it may well start out with the intention of adhering to the constitution. But a charismatic leader would be corrupted by the power, and end up believing "his own press releases".

I don't want any nationalist movement. they are just too dangerous. It would be better for the SANE people in government to stand up and fight the scumbags who are wrecking this nation. Regardless of party. But that requires courage, and political leaders of today have almost none


Spinach, at this point I'm almost required to ask,
"What sane people ?" in government are you referring to ?

A nationalist movement itself is not a bad thing.
It just depends upon the character of those that end up leading it.

Handled properly, it could actually restore the nation.
Sadly, history does not bode well for the odds of it being handled properly.

[TerriC]

Well…as a cancelation prize, perhaps he can have a beer with Obama.

I’m sure he would be thrilled.

He'd rather not....

[spinach]

Spinach, at this point I'm almost required to ask,
"What sane people ?" in government are you referring to ?

A nationalist movement itself is not a bad thing.
It just depends upon the character of those that end up leading it.

Handled properly, it could actually restore the nation.
Sadly, history does not bode well for the odds of it being handled properly.

I believe there are sane people in both parties-
but they lack the courage to take a stand against the current evil regime and against the wanton spending of money.

the nation will get the consequences of its own stupidity.
The nation elects weasels, so their "chickens will be killed".

[Darkcloud72]

That is the fear I have also since history has shown it usually leads to war. My hope is that an American form of nationalism is a peaceful one that restores the principles of our constitution. One that puts Americans first and stops spending our wealth and blood to police an ungrateful world. Why have troops defending wealthy nations like Germany, Japan and S korea when they should be defending our borders from the flood of illegals. If it takes a million troops to do it then so be it.

[nunyadb]

That is the fear I have also since history has shown it usually leads to war. My hope is that an American form of nationalism is a peaceful one that restores the principles of our constitution. One that puts Americans first and stops spending our wealth and blood to police an ungrateful world. Why have troops defending wealthy nations like Germany, Japan and S korea when they should be defending our borders from the flood of illegals. If it takes a million troops to do it then so be it.

That is my hope as well.

My "fear" is that it will take a bloody revolution in order to restore
our nation to it's Constitutional roots.

Much depends upon how the Fed responds to some of the challenges it
is now facing from individual states requiring that the Fed remember it's
"place" in things according to that Constitution.

[bloodAnDthunder]

I believe there are sane people in both parties-
but they lack the courage to take a stand against the current evil regime and against the wanton spending of money.

the nation will get the consequences of its own stupidity.
The nation elects weasels, so their "chickens will be killed".

I'm not sure whether anything would be different under McCain. The Bush administration put the country into something like $9 trillion or $12 trillion debt? It's not like Obama introduced irresponsible spending. I'm sure if McCain was elected he'd just follow the previous administrations work

[spinach]

I'm not sure whether anything would be different under McCain. The Bush administration put the country into something like $9 trillion or $12 trillion debt? It's not like Obama introduced irresponsible spending. I'm sure if McCain was elected he'd just follow the previous administrations work

no, the bush admin did nothing to the debt.
administrations do not spend money, the congress does.

And the congress has been spending like madmen since 1978.


and it's interesting how you want to defend Obama by saying "he's just continuing a bad policy" .

This has NOTHING to do with the WH
it has everything to do with the congress spending money, and bernanke printing it

[bloodAnDthunder]

no, the bush admin did nothing to the debt.
administrations do not spend money, the congress does.

And the congress has been spending like madmen since 1978.


and it's interesting how you want to defend Obama by saying "he's just continuing a bad policy" .

This has NOTHING to do with the WH
it has everything to do with the congress spending money, and bernanke printing it

I'm pretty sure the past bailouts, wars and tax cuts were lead by the president.

and yes, I'm saying Obama is continuing a bad policy.

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

no, the bush admin did nothing to the debt.
administrations do not spend money, the congress does.

And the congress has been spending like madmen since 1978.


and it's interesting how you want to defend Obama by saying "he's just continuing a bad policy" .

This has NOTHING to do with the WH
it has everything to do with the congress spending money, and bernanke printing it

The White House authors every budget.

[spinach]

I'm pretty sure the past bailouts, wars and tax cuts were lead by the president.

and yes, I'm saying Obama is continuing a bad policy.

and none of that can get one penny if the congress says NO.
Do you know why the founders gave congress the purse strings?
they wanted to make sure that 'spending' was not at the whim of one person, but had to have a substantial number of people to make the decision.

the congress is out of control
and the bulk of the wasted spending is on unconstitutional social programs created by LIBERALS

[tom1468]

Nah, I don't think a 3rd party would happen. People in the USA are too in love with identifying themselves as a Democrat or Republican. It's like their ethnicity or something.

Edit: If nationalism does come, it'd be more likely to hijack one of the existing two parties
Oh it is coming,
I dont use this board to measure things , as it is what it is
But, I have noted allot of friends who are life long dems or repubs and both are leaving their parties. I have one friend who has actually stated he will not vote for either of the 2 big parties ever again.

I doubt this election cycles sees much, but their will be a spike , the movement is growing. Now all bets are off if something happens or the economy gets worse suddenly. I also dont think at the moment people know that their dollar is losing its wealth, people seem blind to it at this time. but maybe people begin to see that. Their is allot out there that can happen

Make no mistake it is coming

[bloodAnDthunder]

and none of that can get one penny if the congress says NO.
Do you know why the founders gave congress the purse strings?
they wanted to make sure that 'spending' was not at the whim of one person, but had to have a substantial number of people to make the decision.

the congress is out of control
and the bulk of the wasted spending is on unconstitutional social programs created by LIBERALS


http://img408.imageshack.us/i/budgetdeficitorsurplus.gif/#q=fiscal%20conservative

EDIT: and here's another pretty graph http://www.mypolls.us/republican.national.debt.jpg. The numbers aren't exact, but the important part is the trend shown.

[Jagergeist]

no, the bush admin did nothing to the debt.
administrations do not spend money, the congress does.

And the congress has been spending like madmen since 1978.


and it's interesting how you want to defend Obama by saying "he's just continuing a bad policy" .

This has NOTHING to do with the WH
it has everything to do with the congress spending money, and bernanke printing it

We don't agree on a lot but I agree 100% here. People vent all their anger at Obama when the real problem is elected representatives in Congress who are bleeding us dry, all for the overarching goal of speeding money back to their districts to stay in office. We bitch and moan at every Obama issue, real or imagined, while Congress is still killing our country, one pork laden bill at at time.

The real damn shame in the US is even if the GOP gains a slight majority in 2010 and the WH again in 2012 there will be little cause for cheer. They most likely will start shoveling money out of the US treasury rather than tell voters what they need to hear, that the drunken party is over and the hangover is about to kick in with a vengance.

Madness.

[killSocialism]

Hey libs, is it time to give up the pipe dreams of a wind mill on every car and start drilling our reserves yet?

[Jagergeist]

http://img408.imageshack.us/i/budgetdeficitorsurplus.gif/#q=fiscal%20conservative

Good visual that Republicans were the main problem in deficit spending. That being said that graphic will look horrible for the Democrats once Obama's numbers start getting included. They will make Bush II look like a tightwad.

[Jagergeist]

Hey libs, is it time to give up the pipe dreams of a wind mill on every car and start drilling our reserves yet?

I'm still amazed that when gas spiked all you heard were laments of "if only we had time to drill" and "drilling won't solve the problem since it will take years to develop." We have an amazing stroke of luck with the complete collapse of the oil market that drives prices back down. We all know the prices will explode again once the world economy takes off yet we sit here with our collective thumbs in our rectums. I think I will have to scream the next time, after the next spike, I hear "If only we had time..."

[bloodAnDthunder]

Good visual that Republicans were the main problem in deficit spending. That being said that graphic will look horrible for the Democrats once Obama's numbers start getting included. They will make Bush II look like a tightwad.

that is very true. a tear came to my eye when he announced his spending plans.

[johnrocks]

Good visual that Republicans were the main problem in deficit spending. That being said that graphic will look horrible for the Democrats once Obama's numbers start getting included. They will make Bush II look like a tightwad.

I didn't look but I bet some of the best times were when one Party controlled the WH and the other controlled Congress; except for Carter, he made some look like spendaholics.

[byzantine catholic]

I didn't look but I bet some of the best times were when one Party controlled the WH and the other controlled Congress; except for Carter, he made some look like spendaholics.I dunno the Dems did as much spending and sending us to war as the Repubs back in 2006 when they took the Congress.

[johnrocks]

I dunno the Dems did as much spending and sending us to war as the Repubs back in 2006 when they took the Congress.

Perhaps although that is when Bush started "acting" more conservative also.;)

[bloodAnDthunder]

Hey libs, is it time to give up the pipe dreams of a wind mill on every car and start drilling our reserves yet?

drilling won't solve energy costs. That oil drilled at home will just add to the supply in the global market and the same amount the USA adds will be reduced in OPEC's production. They will reduce their own production by the same amount just to keep the oil prices high.

EDIT: this happens all the time in commodities like oil and coal. look it up

[byzantine catholic]

Perhaps although that is when Bush started "acting" more conservative also.;)I hope you are joking!:cry:Bank bailouts and free trade is not conservative!

[betwixt]

I'm still amazed that when gas spiked all you heard were laments of "if only we had time to drill" and "drilling won't solve the problem since it will take years to develop." We have an amazing stroke of luck with the complete collapse of the oil market that drives prices back down. We all know the prices will explode again once the world economy takes off yet we sit here with our collective thumbs in our rectums. I think I will have to scream the next time, after the next spike, I hear "If only we had time..."


I am still amazed that when gas spiked all I heard were cries of, "It's all Bush's fault, he's raising the cost of oil so his oil co's in Texas can make more money...":think:
Only a few actually said this so I don't think it was a general idea.
At one point when the cost of the barrel lowered and the price at the pump did too I asked if they were glad Bush lowered gas prices one reply was something like " He's just doing it to get people off his back for a while".

[johnrocks]

I hope you are joking!:cry:Bank bailouts and free trade is not conservative!

That's why acting was in parenthesis;)( I hope I spelled that right,lol)

[nunyadb]

drilling won't solve energy costs. That oil drilled at home will just add to the supply in the global market and the same amount the USA adds will be reduced in OPEC's production. They will reduce their own production by the same amount just to keep the oil prices high.

The nice thing about it is that the money to drill it and to produce will stay
inside the USA paying AMERICAN workers who will pay AMERICAN taxes
and buy goods in AMERICAN stores.

That's for starters.

Also, when OPEC raises the world oil prices, America can still access the oil from
here in America as the oil belongs to the nation. The land is leased from the owner
( in this case the government ) by the oil companies who pay for the lease.
A percentage of the sales price is paid to the owner as a condition of the lease.
That's how you hear about the little old couple that got rich when oil was
found on their land.
I keep hearing this "world oil market" stuff, but when you are the owner of
the land that the lease sits on, you do indeed have a great deal of control over
the oil and gas that is produced.

Also, the oil would never leave the U.S., it would be drilled for here, refined here,
and used here. Regardless of the "world oil supply" stuff, THAT is the important
part of this. Oil could be $200/Bbl, but that money would stay here in this country.
It could also not be cut off from us by some ****ed off Arab.
Are you people really that stupid ?

You people just don't get that part do you ?

Any money paid by American companies for oil produced in America, regardless
of the world price of oil, stays in America.
So we're not hemorrhaging money to the Arabs, we're hemorrhaging money to
ourselves. I frankly don't see the problem.

[johnrocks]

The nice thing about it is that the money to drill it and to produce will stay
inside the USA paying AMERICAN workers who will pay AMERICAN taxes
and buy goods in AMERICAN stores.

That's for starters.

Also, when OPEC raises the world oil prices, America can still access the oil from
here in America as the oil belongs to the nation. The land is leased from the owner
( in this case the government ) by the oil companies who pay for the lease.
A percentage of the sales price is paid to the owner as a condition of the lease.
That's how you hear about the little old couple that got rich when oil was
found on their land.
I keep hearing this "world oil market" stuff, but when you are the owner of
the land that the lease sits on, you do indeed have a great deal of control over
the oil and gas that is produced.

Also, the oil would never leave the U.S., it would be drilled for here, refined here,
and used here. Regardless of the "world oil supply" stuff, THAT is the important
part of this. Oil could be $200/Bbl, but that money would stay here in this country.
It could also not be cut off from us by some ****ed off Arab.
Are you people really that stupid ?

You people just don't get that part do you ?

Any money paid by American companies for oil produced in America, regardless
of the world price of oil, stays in America.
So we're not hemorrhaging money to the Arabs, we're hemorrhaging money to
ourselves. I frankly don't see the problem.

I'd love to see this debated;free of emotion; one day.;) Most people don't have a clue how OPEC was created or how government intervention in the early 60's in oil as well as natural gas played and still plays an important role in all of this.

[byzantine catholic]

That's why acting was in parenthesis;)( I hope I spelled that right,lol)Lol got ya.;)

[byzantine catholic]

I'd love to see this debated;free of emotion; one day.;) Most people don't have a clue how OPEC was created or how government intervention in the early 60's in oil as well as natural gas played and still plays an important role in all of this.And then we go to war over oil.

[bloodAnDthunder]

The nice thing about it is that the money to drill it and to produce will stay
inside the USA paying AMERICAN workers who will pay AMERICAN taxes
and buy goods in AMERICAN stores.

That's for starters.

Also, when OPEC raises the world oil prices, America can still access the oil from
here in America as the oil belongs to the nation. The land is leased from the owner
( in this case the government ) by the oil companies who pay for the lease.
A percentage of the sales price is paid to the owner as a condition of the lease.
That's how you hear about the little old couple that got rich when oil was
found on their land.
I keep hearing this "world oil market" stuff, but when you are the owner of
the land that the lease sits on, you do indeed have a great deal of control over
the oil and gas that is produced.

Also, the oil would never leave the U.S., it would be drilled for here, refined here,
and used here. Regardless of the "world oil supply" stuff, THAT is the important
part of this. Oil could be $200/Bbl, but that money would stay here in this country.
It could also not be cut off from us by some ****ed off Arab.
Are you people really that stupid ?

You people just don't get that part do you ?

Any money paid by American companies for oil produced in America, regardless
of the world price of oil, stays in America.
So we're not hemorrhaging money to the Arabs, we're hemorrhaging money to
ourselves. I frankly don't see the problem.

That is really not how it works. Take it from someone working in the industry.

[johnrocks]

And then we go to war over oil.

What I don't get is, oil is like any other commodity, they need and want to sell it as much as we and others want to buy it, they have to eat, they have to have shelter and medical care and all of the other perks that civilized society has. If they horded that oil, they'd be nothing but a huge sand box.

[johnrocks]

That is really not how it works. Take it from someone working in the industry.

The man you quoted works in the industry too.

[bloodAnDthunder]

The man you quoted works in the industry too.


Doing what?

[johnrocks]

Doing what?

I don't know, he can speak for himself, all I know is off shore but he has had a lot of great ideas and is very knowledgeable although I agree with you on this issue.;)( I think,lol)

[nunyadb]

That is really not how it works. Take it from someone working in the industry.

I've been working in it for some 32 years now.
I know the theory and the practical application.

sure , it gets counted in the "world market supply",
but in practical fact, oil produced in Oklahoma does not get sold
to Argentina.
It gets used in Colorado.

So tell me something I don't know.

[nunyadb]

What I don't get is, oil is like any other commodity, they need and want to sell it as much as we and others want to buy it, they have to eat, they have to have shelter and medical care and all of the other perks that civilized society has. If they horded that oil, they'd be nothing but a huge sand box.

John, they aren't "hoarding" it, they are simply cutting down on the immediate
supply they release. Sort of like turning down the faucet.

That reduces available supply on the open market, that makes the
commodities traders increase the price as it is now a scarcer commodity.

Thus, they make more money even though they sell us less of it.

[Camp]

Let them use the yuan or ruble if they want. Its only money.

[nunyadb]

Let them use the yuan or ruble if they want. Its only money.

Not exactly.
The currency that oil is traded in has a base advantage of value over
any other currencies in the world.
IT is what nations and corporations have to have if they want oil.

Giving up that currency advantage could very well wipe out our economy
considering how shaky the ground we're standing on right now is.

[pennysworth56]

Ingator, I want this to hit the bastards that pushed for the policies that caused it.
I want it to hit the idiot liberal "save the planet" eco freaks and all the rest of the
people that went out of their way to kill every means of our own manufacturing
base being globally competitive and forcing them out of the country.

I want this to hit the ignorant bastards that pushed so hard for the policies that
caused this mess and I want it to hit them HARD.

The problem is it will not hit them hard, it is us the little people that will hurt the most.

penny

[nunyadb]

The problem is it will not hit them hard, it is us the little people that will hurt the most.

penny

Penny, dear, it's already hitting us hard.
So if we've got to take a fall, I want them to share in it.
They'll never stop the stupidity if they don't get hurt as well.

[johnrocks]

John, they aren't "hoarding" it, they are simply cutting down on the immediate
supply they release. Sort of like turning down the faucet.

That reduces available supply on the open market, that makes the
commodities traders increase the price as it is now a scarcer commodity.

Thus, they make more money even though they sell us less of it.

I understand that, I was talking about the bigger picture of them wanting to sell as much as we want to buy. In a true free market, they would not have this power over us, we would drill if need be, if oil got too high, we'd convert to natural gas or some other source, hell, we have enough natural gas to last generations, technology is allowing us to drill in deeper waters and to extract more from older wells and we have enough methane and natural gas Hydrates to last thousands of years; only problem is they give off too much carbon but technology is working on that and I for one have much more faith in free markets than I'll ever have in government.

[Camp]

Not exactly.
The currency that oil is traded in has a base advantage of value over
any other currencies in the world.
IT is what nations and corporations have to have if they want oil.

Giving up that currency advantage could very well wipe out our economy
considering how shaky the ground we're standing on right now is.

If the "world" wants to invest in the economy of Russia or China over the US then let them. They will reap as they sow. They will also find out that ownership is more important than currency exchange rates.

Note that I was being sarcastic, but if a move is afoot to change then let them shoot themselves in the foot. We can fix our economy through the voting process much better than Russia or China.

[johnrocks]

Nixon took us off of the remainder of Bretton Woods and made a deal with Saudi Arabia and the oil producers, it looks like that party is coming to an end.

[nunyadb]

Nixon took us off of the remainder of Bretton Woods and made a deal with Saudi Arabia and the oil producers, it looks like that party is coming to an end.

Yeah, when O said we weren't the "world's policeman" anymore, everyone
knew that all the old deals were done.
No more guaranteed protection in exchange for favorable rates and so forth.

This is soon going to become a free for all on the international oil trading markets.

It's what happens when people elect a naive idiot to run a nation the size and
scope of ours with as many entangling alliances on so many sides.

People raise hell about how this nation has done business in the past.
Well, they're about to get a really rough education as to why.

[nunyadb]

If the "world" wants to invest in the economy of Russia or China over the US then let them. They will reap as they sow. They will also find out that ownership is more important than currency exchange rates.

Note that I was being sarcastic, but if a move is afoot to change then let them shoot themselves in the foot. We can fix our economy through the voting process much better than Russia or China.

If they play this the way they can, if they really want to, by next election cycle
we'll have a collapsed economy and most of us won't be able to buy a loaf of
bread. Much less drill an oil well.

That's just how hard this can hit us if we're not really really cautious.

[ConservativeSnoopy]

So if oil goes off the dollar standard why aren't they just choosing to swap it for a single other currency? Why more than 1? I don't understand.

[LauraKBF]

The nice thing about it is that the money to drill it and to produce will stay
inside the USA paying AMERICAN workers who will pay AMERICAN taxes
and buy goods in AMERICAN stores.

That's for starters.

Also, when OPEC raises the world oil prices, America can still access the oil from
here in America as the oil belongs to the nation. The land is leased from the owner
( in this case the government ) by the oil companies who pay for the lease.
A percentage of the sales price is paid to the owner as a condition of the lease.
That's how you hear about the little old couple that got rich when oil was
found on their land.
I keep hearing this "world oil market" stuff, but when you are the owner of
the land that the lease sits on, you do indeed have a great deal of control over
the oil and gas that is produced.

Also, the oil would never leave the U.S., it would be drilled for here, refined here,
and used here. Regardless of the "world oil supply" stuff, THAT is the important
part of this. Oil could be $200/Bbl, but that money would stay here in this country.
It could also not be cut off from us by some ****ed off Arab.
Are you people really that stupid ?

You people just don't get that part do you ?

Any money paid by American companies for oil produced in America, regardless
of the world price of oil, stays in America.
So we're not hemorrhaging money to the Arabs, we're hemorrhaging money to
ourselves. I frankly don't see the problem.I don't see a problem either. As you pointed out in an earlier post, the libs are the ones causing this problem, as they block all efforts to drill here and make us more energy independent.

Thanks for your posts on this subject. I've learned so much from them. :)

[E7ALR]

Nixon took us off of the remainder of Bretton Woods and made a deal with Saudi Arabia and the oil producers, it looks like that party is coming to an end.We need to get our energy act together. Our stationary site energy needs (power needs for climate control, lighting and machinery use in buildings, and rail roads) should have been focused in nuclear power years ago and our hydrocarbon fuels (oil, coal, natural gas) should have been focused to our mobile energy needs. We could be smart and not using one drop of external energy if we wanted to, and the jobs to build and maintain this system would all be US jobs.

[nunyadb]

So if oil goes off the dollar standard why aren't they just choosing to swap it for a single other currency? Why more than 1? I don't understand.

Because no single one of the group bidding for the privilege can provide what
the U.S. could do all by itself.

Security for the oil to make it to market.
Security for the ports and the ships as they transit disputed waters
in combination with security for the ruling governments that the deals
are cut with.
They want to stay in power, and it's taking the three listed to be able to
actually make those guarantees.
Also, none of the 3 trust each other to not take advantage of the situation.

They didn't like us, hell, they even hated us, but they knew at the end of the
day, that we'd be a mostly honest broker and everyone would get pretty
much the same shake on their end.

Now............not so much.

Consider that "pool" of currencies as their "insurance" policy against
one or the other trying to "cheat" on the deal.

[nunyadb]

User X, I've answered those same questions just about a hundred times
to people just like you that come on these boards.

I strongly suspect that there are other posters here that can almost
tell you verbatim what my responses were and would be this time if
even gave enough of a damn about you to answer them.

Frankly, I just damned tired of repeating myself to arrogant little snots
that think they know something and honestly don't know **** about anything.

So you may consider yourself as winning this round if you wish,
because quite honestly , you're just not worth the effort.
You want to fight and argue and you're just not worth it.

[nunyadb]

pretty weak dude. I at least have the decency that debates be determined by facts, evidence; reason. you on the other hand engage in strawmen arguments, exxageration, and smear tactics.

yet you have the gall to call me arrogant?

I did win. I asked you to back up your claims. you did not. until you do, game over. you cannot assert something out of thin air and have it be accepted in the court of public opinion.

as for the insults, **** you.

yep, you win.
Congrats, now go have some fun.
By the way, it's easier to get a response if you ask questions one at a time.
And i'm not going to provide you with internal proprietary maps and such.
General info, I'm usually glad to answer.
As to your sexual advance, I honestly don't think you're my type.

[tom1468]

You know what, I think a really good economic collapse would be good for us.
It very well could be good for us
But
I would have to quit smoking and spend allot of time with family due to lack of work

It could be painful

[tom1468]

Hmmm. I wonder how much we import from China. Too bad we don't drill here. That's not the liberal way. (Why is that, btw? I don't think I've ever asked a lib why drilling here is bad...)
If something like this happens we wont be importing anything from china or anywhere else.
I wonder how long before the concept of min wage is dropped

[OlMehk]

They have actually been talking about it for some time now. Usually a basket of currencies is referenced as the replacement. The end result would be that the US dollar would fall against other currencies, making our energy costs rise whlie having little effect on everyone else.
I believe this is another phase in the systematic destabilization of America.
In order for the Globalists (the real socialists) to gain control of the world (sounds crazy), they need to destroy America.
I believe September 15, 2008 had something to do with it: Merryl Lynch, AIG, etc.
And now this announcement shows that these powers HAVE been conspiring against the US.
I am no conspiracy theorist, but I know what I have been seeing.
THe greatest thing standing in front of the Globalist onslaught is the American Constitution.
That one document gives this country strength in front of tyranny. Regardless of the leaders and administrations we have had good and bad, the constitution has always been the guiding philosophy.

If America is in political and economic disarray, there is no real need to attack her with conventional weapons. The would have our elected officials turn their tyranny towards the American people, in effect suspending the constitution. IF that happens...then their ends are met

We can easily prepare for what is coming...but it means putting poltics aside and doing for ourselves...our politicians cannot and will not help us out of this one:flag:

That's what I think

[TerriC]

I understand that, I was talking about the bigger picture of them wanting to sell as much as we want to buy. In a true free market, they would not have this power over us, we would drill if need be, if oil got too high, we'd convert to natural gas or some other source, hell, we have enough natural gas to last generations, technology is allowing us to drill in deeper waters and to extract more from older wells and we have enough methane and natural gas Hydrates to last thousands of years; only problem is they give off too much carbon but technology is working on that and I for one have much more faith in free markets than I'll ever have in government.

That is all true, but that is only all fine and dandy if we have a government who will allow us to do the drilling, use the natural gas, etc. but we dont. In this kind of situation, its either the Country or carbon (being that the whole global warming issue is still widely disputed screw the carbon outputs). So in this situation, we are screwed.

[TerriC]

If something like this happens we wont be importing anything from china or anywhere else.
I wonder how long before the concept of min wage is dropped

And unions are told to go to hell...

[TerriC]

I believe this is another phase in the systematic destabilization of America.
In order for the Globalists (the real socialists) to gain control of the world (sounds crazy), they need to destroy America.
I believe September 15, 2008 had something to do with it: Merryl Lynch, AIG, etc.
And now this announcement shows that these powers HAVE been conspiring against the US.
I am no conspiracy theorist, but I know what I have been seeing.
THe greatest thing standing in front of the Globalist onslaught is the American Constitution.
That one document gives this country strength in front of tyranny. Regardless of the leaders and administrations we have had good and bad, the constitution has always been the guiding philosophy.

If America is in political and economic disarray, there is no real need to attack her with conventional weapons. The would have our elected officials turn their tyranny towards the American people, in effect suspending the constitution. IF that happens...then their ends are met

We can easily prepare for what is coming...but it means putting poltics aside and doing for ourselves...our politicians cannot and will not help us out of this one:flag:

That's what I think

I was just reading about the millions of acres of land, agricultural, forest, etc. that has been bought by foreign interest over the last several years. Own the land, destroy our economy (or assist us in doing it ourselves) and guess what, no more USA.

[Crestey]

As with the far left, they are both conspiacy nuts. This so-called movement to stop using the dollar is dumb and not even news. Grow up and quit drinking the cool aid. Think for yourself and dont beleive everything you read.

[betwixt]

As with the far left, they are both conspiacy nuts. This so-called movement to stop using the dollar is dumb and not even news. Grow up and quit drinking the cool aid. Think for yourself and dont beleive everything you read.

So we shouldn't believe you? :think:

[Crestey]

That is up to you.

[nunyadb]

It very well could be good for us
But
I would have to quit smoking and spend allot of time with family due to lack of work

It could be painful

In times of hardship, we must all make some sacrifices.
Just keep a stash of smokes hidden out back someplace
for those really rough days......LOL

[DavidC]

Gold Bust on it's way after some more run up. The market is totally fake at this point.

[nunyadb]

Of course the market's fake.
It has been for some months now.
There is some seriously big money out there
playing some really nasty games with the full
intent of causing the loss of almost every dime
of the "small" investor's money.

The sad thing is, it's working.

[pennysworth56]

Penny, dear, it's already hitting us hard.
So if we've got to take a fall, I want them to share in it.
They'll never stop the stupidity if they don't get hurt as well.

I agree with you, but I do not think it will hit them as hard as it will us. Hope it does hit them hard too, but I do not think it will. Just for the simple reason is they have more resources than we do.

penny

[nunyadb]

I agree with you, but I do not think it will hit them as hard as it will us. Hope it does hit them hard too, but I do not think it will. Just for the simple reason is they have more resources than we do.

penny

Yeah, I know.
That's ok though, remember, "the sun don't shine on the same dog's ass every day".

[OlMehk]

I was just reading about the millions of acres of land, agricultural, forest, etc. that has been bought by foreign interest over the last several years. Own the land, destroy our economy (or assist us in doing it ourselves) and guess what, no more USA.
Yeah it's true and it has been systematic. I guess sometime in the last 10 years we accrued severe debt and CHINA has been buying this debt...this is how they own such a large portion of our economy. CHINA OWNS US.

With this real estate mess Europeans have been buying up American real estate like hot cakes...then they go and sell the big money property to other foreign owners.
So now our economy AND our real estate are in the hands of foreigners.

I did not know about the millions of acres of land purchased by these folks...but it makes sense. And I will add the Trans-Continental Corridor. That was an issue in what 2005, 2006? Nobody is talking about it now!

It has been and will continue to be systematic.
People tend to see certain events as unconnected when they are fully connected. :flag:

[OlMehk]

As with the far left, they are both conspiacy nuts. This so-called movement to stop using the dollar is dumb and not even news. Grow up and quit drinking the cool aid. Think for yourself and dont beleive everything you read.
I think we should take it pretty seriously. Because now the international community is OPENLY questioning the strength of the Dollar.
Politics aside, what are the implications?

[nunyadb]

I think we should take it pretty seriously. Because now the international community is OPENLY questioning the strength of the Dollar.
Politics aside, what are the implications?

A complete economic implosion, followed by a "friendly" immigration of
our new masters.

Really not all that hard to figure out.
As you said, they own us.
Bought and paid for.

America truly does have the finest politicians that money can buy.