Judge jails elderly couple for outdated septic tank

[Long Island Bob]

Thursday, 01 Oct 2009, 8:53 PM CDT

WACONIA, Minn. - An elderly couple may go to because the county says their septic is not up to code. The couple says they are willing to go to jail to prove their point.

Janet and Lowell Carlson were supposed to report to jail for refusing a court order to repair their septic system. Thursday morning, prosecutors offered the couple an additional two weeks to begin repair.

For months, Janet Carlson and her husband have been battling Carver County after inspectors discovered that the septic field on her five-acre farm was too close to the water table. Code requires at least 36 inch separation.

“I don’t know what the problem is,” said Carlson. “It works just fine. They just say that the separation isn’t there.”

When asked by why they refuse to repair their septic system, he Carlson's simply point to the Waconia Ballroom.

“The county has got the same problem and they're not doing anything but sweeping it under the carpet. They don't want to fix it, either do I.”


http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/news/Septic_Problems_May_Lead_to_Jail_Time_oct_01_2009

[Long Island Bob]

Carver County couple refuse to fix their septic system
Facing a jail threat, a Carver County couple say they won't obey a judge's order to upgrade their system. They say the law is not handled consistently.

By HERÓN MÁRQUEZ ESTRADA, Star Tribune

Last update: October 2, 2009 - 4:57 AM
A battle between Carver County and a Chanhassen couple over a faulty septic system escalated Thursday as the homeowners said they won't budge in the face of a judge's order to upgrade their system within two weeks or go to jail indefinitely.

"We're not fixing it," said 75-year-old Lowell Carlson following a hearing with Carver County District Judge Richard Perkins.

His wife, Janet, agreed.

"My husband said we're not going to fix it, so I guess that's it," she said.

The couple had been scheduled to go to jail Thursday evening to begin serving 30-day sentences for not following a previous court order to fix the decades-old system on their farm in Norwood Young America.

But they were summoned to court Thursday morning, and Perkins gave them two more weeks to comply. After that, he warned, their sentences would be open-ended. They could get out of jail only if they complied with the county's orders.

"You would, in effect, have the keys to the jail," the judge told them. . . ..

. . . .The problem septic systems The type of septic system in question, which operates by gravity, is used in about 4,600 homes in Carver County. County officials estimate that at least 3,500 of the systems are not in compliance with a rule that their drain fields can be no closer than 36 inches above the historic level of the groundwater below. When that new rule went into effect in 1996, the county grandfathered in existing systems but required that they eventually be repaired -- usually by placing the drain-field distribution system into a mound at a cost of $10,000 to $15,000.


http://www.startribune.com/local/west/63199437.html?elr=KArksc8P:Pc:U0ckkD:aEyKUiD3aPc:_ Yyc:aUU

[Long Island Bob]

green police strike again

[Long Island Bob]

Thecouple liveson a farm in Norwood Young America, Minnesota

Here's the google map I got for their town.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&q=Norwood+Young+America&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Norwood+Young+America,+MN&gl=us&ei=AyTKSrnQCY2flAffiKySAw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1



Looks to me like they are pretty far away from their rneighbors' drinking water.

Apparantly
the septic system works fine, there is no smell and the neigbors have not complained.

Still they broke an environmental law and must go to jail.

[Vaard]

green police strike again

yes, a clean water table is over rated......

[Vaard]

Thecouple liveson a farm in Norwood Young America, Minnesota

Here's the google map I got for their town.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&q=Norwood+Young+America&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Norwood+Young+America,+MN&gl=us&ei=AyTKSrnQCY2flAffiKySAw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1



Looks to me like they are pretty far away from their rneighbors' drinking water.

Apparantly
the septic system works fine, there is no smell and the neigbors have not complained.

Still they broke an environmental law and must go to jail.



how did you determine the local water tabel using that map?

[Jagergeist]

It sounds like the couple are trying to intentionally be a pain in the ass. If so the claim "elderly" loses any interest in my book. They can go to jail like anyone else.

[SFC(R)L]

As one who must undergo a quarterly report to the county that I am not contaminating the water table with my effluent and drainfield, I am unmoved.

[Long Island Bob]

yes, a clean water table is over rated......



Do a google map search of their town and then tell me who's water they are supposedly polluting.

I spent many years in farm country. Wells (which can be 500 feet or more below the surface) are seldom polluted by the tiny amount of sewerage that drips out of a septic tank near the surface. I note that these folks have been drinking their well water for decades and somehow amanged to avoid dying desptite being in their 70's







and that is exactly the point.

When it comes to envrionmental issues, folks seldom put a single thought into the matter. They hear "it's bad for the environement" or "these people are polluting," and blindly believe the allegations even though 3-seconds of thought reveal the allegations are meritless

[Long Island Bob]

"When that new rule went into effect in 1996, the county grandfathered in existing systems but required that they eventually be repaired -- usually by placing the drain-field distribution system into a mound at a cost of $10,000 to $15,000."



The couple is being required to spend $10,000-$15,000 to prevent imaginary damage to a water table (damage that that causes harm to no one and no thing.)

[Vaard]

Do a google map search of their town and then tell me who's water they are supposedly polluting.

I spent many years in farm country. Wells (which can be 500 feet or more below the surface) are seldom polluted by the tiny amount of sewerage that drips out of a septic tank near the surface. I note that these folks have been drinking their well water for decades and somehow amanged to avoid dying desptite being in their 70's







and that is exactly the point.

When it comes to envrionmental issues, folks seldom put a single thought into the matter. They hear "it's bad for the environement" or "these people are polluting," and blindly believe the allegations even though 3-seconds of thought reveal the allegations are meritless



well, lets start out with this.....


do you understand what the term "water table" means........

[RTchoke]

It sounds like the couple are trying to intentionally be a pain in the ass. If so the claim "elderly" loses any interest in my book. They can go to jail like anyone else.

But who else is going to jail over this?

If the article is accurate and there are "at least 3,500 of the systems are not in compliance", why aren't the rest going to jail too?

I see their point in saying that it's not being handled consistently. particularly when the very entity (the County) is also in non-compliance and is doing nothing about their own issue? I see what they are doing as trying to make a point. They may not come out ahead, but they make a valid point.

[Jagergeist]

But who else is going to jail over this?

If the article is accurate and there are "at least 3,500 of the systems are not in compliance", why aren't the rest going to jail too?

I see their point in saying that it's not being handled consistently. particularly when the very entity (the County) is also in non-compliance and is doing nothing about their own issue? I see what they are doing as trying to make a point. They may not come out ahead, but they make a valid point.

I would like to hear the rest of the back story as well. I don't know if they were the first, the only ones who flat out refused to work on the problem or just going for contempt of a court order.

[RETXED]

One of my friends just finished up disputing our county on a "Wetlands" issue on HIS OWN PROPERTY that was prohibiting him from building his home. After 4 years and almost 15k in attorney fees he is finaly able to build or sell...

The liberal greenies said his property is wetlands and cannot be built on. We live in High Desert.

He found an ariel photo of the property that was taken back in the fifities and the "Wetlands" they referred to were not there. After inspecting the photo, you see that the newly built (In the photo) irrigation ditch was leaking and you could see where the water was migrating.. It was draining into his future property which would later be considered "Wetlands".... lol

The county refused to accept this so he had to sue... Thank goodness he finally won.

[LouC]

When new separation rules went into effect in 1996, the county grandfathered in existing systems, but required that they eventually be fixed -- usually by placing the distribution system into a mound at a cost of $10,000 to $15,000. The county since had required that the upgrades occur when a property is sold or requires a building permit.

When they bought the place several years ago the problem should have been fixed, it should have been worked into the purchase of the property, why did they ignore it?

They should have known this was a potential issue.

["Doc"]

If my septic tank is less then 3 feet away from my drinking water source, I can promise there is no need to arrest me to get it changed.

[George Walton]

When that new rule went into effect in 1996, the county grandfathered in existing systems but required that they eventually be repaired -- usually by placing the drain-field distribution system into a mound at a cost of $10,000 to $15,000.

http://www.startribune.com/local/west/63199437.html?elr=KArksc8P:Pc:U0ckkD:aEyKUiD3aPc:_ Yyc:aUU

Retroactive environmental laws. The Envirowacko's dream.

Obviously, being grandfathered doesn't mean anything. The county needs to pay for the the cost to bring these grandfathered drain-fields into compliance.

.

[Mohawk5]

Just another way to squeeze the poor for every penny they have!

[RETXED]

When they bought the place several years ago the problem should have been fixed, it should have been worked into the purchase of the property, why did they ignore it?

They should have known this was a potential issue.


Required when the property is SOLD.... Not purchased. This means it is the obligation of the seller to upgrade NOT the buyer. PLUS, this means that the County FAILED to perform a proper inspection to ensure everything was up to code.

["Doc"]

Is it just a coincidence that I have a "septic to sewer" and a "70% off septic tank" adds at the bottom of the page?

I had an entire septic system put in (tank, drain field, etc.) within the last 5 years. The 10K-15K seems a pretty significant exaggeration

[LouC]

Retroactive environmental laws. The Envirowacko's dream.

Obviously, being grandfathered doesn't mean anything. The county needs to pay for the the cost to bring these grandfathered drain-fields into compliance.

.

The county does not need to be paying for upgrades.

It is an extremely common practice for such things to be grandfathered with stipulations that they must be brought up to code when the property changes hands or when additions to homes are made that require permits.

For some reason when these people bought the property they failed to do the upgrade, why is not mentioned.

[RTchoke]

When they bought the place several years ago the problem should have been fixed, it should have been worked into the purchase of the property, why did they ignore it?

They should have known this was a potential issue.

They claim that county enforcement of its own ordinances is spotty and that in some cases people are given variances or approval despite their systems not being in compliance with state laws.

"I just don't understand," Janet Carlson said in court. "There is no consistency. Why do some people get by with it and others don't?"

Small town politics and who sucks up to who. See it every damn day. They are trying to make a point and if the County itself is not in compliance .................... I can see their point.

[LouC]

Just another way to squeeze the poor for every penny they have!

:rolleyes:

[Long Island Bob]

If my septic tank is less then 3 feet away from my drinking water source, I can promise there is no need to arrest me to get it changed.

That's the point.

You are not drinking water directly out of the top of the water table nor is anyone else.

anyone who is drinking water from the top 3 feet of surfacesoil has a lot more to worry about than a septic system, especially one that is on a farm hundreds of meters away.

[RETXED]

The county does not need to be paying for upgrades.

It is an extremely common practice for such things to be grandfathered with stipulations that they must be brought up to code when the property changes hands or when additions to homes are made that require permits.

For some reason when these people bought the property they failed to do the upgrade, why is not mentioned.


If it is code it is the responsibility of the SELLER not the buyer. The county should have never let the property sell because it wasn't up to code.

[LouC]

Required when the property is SOLD.... Not purchased. This means it is the obligation of the seller to upgrade NOT the buyer. PLUS, this means that the County FAILED to perform a proper inspection to ensure everything was up to code.

We don't know who is stipulated to pay for the upgrade from the story but if it is the seller then the couple should have a suit against the seller for failing to do what the law said to do.

[RETXED]

We don't know who is stipulated to pay for the upgrade from the story but if it is the seller then the couple should have a suit against the seller for failing to do what the law said to do.


Not if they had an inspection prior to sale. Which is required where I live.

[fjccommish]

The real story here is I'm glad I don't have a septic tank.

["Doc"]

That's the point.

You are not drinking water directly out of the top of the water table nor is anyone else.

anyone who is drinking water from the top 3 feet of surfacesoil has a lot more to worry about than a septic system, especially one that is on a farm hundreds of meters away.

You don't take water from the "top 3 feet of surfacesoil". You take if from the water table which may or may not be in the top 3 feet (likely not). I certain don't want the water that is flushed down my toilet to go into the soil within 3 feet of the source of my drinking water. I hope you don't either. To do so in a health concern.

[LouC]

Not if they had an inspection prior to sale. Which is required where I live.

What is required where you live is pertinent to where you live and not necessarily what is the case where they live.

[Gengar]

The couple says they are willing to go to jail to prove their point

Oh well.

[LouC]

The Carlsons, who bought the farm several years ago, have steadfastly refused to fix the system there in protest over what they say are inequities in how thousands of septic systems are regulated and administered in Carver County.

This **** just didn't suddenly percolate to the surface.

[RETXED]

What is required where you live is pertinent to where you live and not necessarily what is the case where they live.

That is why I stated "Where I live"....... We are all speculating in this thread. None of us knows the codes or requirements just yet... If they are the same then the County should be liable.

[RETXED]

And when I mean Liable, I don't mean that the county should pay. This system should be grandfathered in and no action should be taken against the couple. However, if they want to sell, they should be required to fix it.

[Long Island Bob]

You don't take water from the "top 3 feet of surfacesoil". You take if from the water table which may or may not be in the top 3 feet (likely not). I certain don't want the water that is flushed down my toilet to go into the soil within 3 feet of the source of my drinking water. I hope you don't either. To do so in a health concern.

That is
exactly what I am saying.


Where I come from wells were frequently 500 ft deep. In the valleys wells are 200-300' feet down.

The Carlson's septic system is not harming them, nor is it harming anyone else nor is it harming bunnies or birds or trees or dung beetles. It is certainly not harming their neighbors (who live hundreds of yards away.)





The enviromental lemmings simply chose to believe anything that is said to be bad for the environemant must actually be bad for the envrionment, then passed a law that would jail anyone who refused to do things their way.

[Long Island Bob]

And when I mean Liable, I don't mean that the county should pay. This system should be grandfathered in and no action should be taken against the couple. However, if they want to sell, they should be required to fix it.

Why
Who (or what) are they harming?

Grass is greener above the old style septics.
Other than that the old style septics, in a rural area, cause zero environmental damage.
NO bunnies are killed, no trees die no fish go belly up, etc.

[RETXED]

Why
Who (or what) are they harming?

Grass is greener above the old style septics.
Other than that the old style septics, in a rural area, cause zero environmental damage.
NO bunnies are killed, no trees die no fish go belly up, etc.

I am not saying I agree with it, just saying that if it is a code then the seller is usually required to fix it before selling..

[jimjames418]

Is it just a coincidence that I have a "septic to sewer" and a "70% off septic tank" adds at the bottom of the page?

I had an entire septic system put in (tank, drain field, etc.) within the last 5 years. The 10K-15K seems a pretty significant exaggeration
Some have that same problem here in lower Michigan. You must pay to have a mound of dirt hauled in, and then pay to have installed a pump to pump the stuff up to the top of the mound. And maintenance on the system ain't cheap. :evil:

[LouC]

According to Carver County: FALSE! No septic systems, no matter when they were constructed, were “grandfathered in” by the 1995 MPCA septic system Rule changes, or by any Carver County codes and ordinances.

Carver County regulations: (B) The sellers must provide a copy of the completed property transfer system disclosure form and the compliance inspection form to any person who signs a purchase agreement. The disclosure form and compliance inspection form must be provided to the buyers prior to the signing of the purchase agreement. The compliance inspection form shall include all requirements for bringing the system into compliance with this chapter.

(C) The sellers or buyers of a property containing an ISTS that is an IPHT must have the system repaired or replaced within ten months of the inspection date. If the system is not brought into compliance prior to the property transfer, funds sufficient to repair or replace the failing system shall be placed in escrow. The Department has the authority to require repair or replacement of an IPHT sooner than ten months of the inspection date.

(D) The sellers or buyers of a property containing a failing ISTS that is not an IPHT must have the sewage system upgraded to a complying system within three years of the date of the compliance inspection. If the system is not brought into compliance prior to the property transfer, funds sufficient to repair or replace the failing system shall be placed in escrow. The Department has the authority to require repair or replacement of a failing ISTS sooner than three years of the inspection date.

(E) The Sewage System Compliance Inspection form shall be filed with the County Auditor along with the Certificate of Real Estate Value. A copy of the inspection form must also be filed with the Department within 30 calendar days of the date of the inspection.



So the question is what happened in this case, that the upgrades weren't done according to the manner in which they should have been done?

[RETXED]

According to Carver County:

Carver County regulations:

So the question is what happened in this case, that the upgrades weren't done according to the manner in which they should have been done?


The key to it is the part about the inspection. If the inspector did not cite a code violation then they were not aware of any problem. Therefore what you posted is void.
Now if the property was inspected prior to sale and the problem was detected and tagged as a required fix then the seller and or buyer are liable. Otherwise the county can pack sand.

[LouC]

The key to it is the part about the inspection. If the inspector did not cite a code violation then they were not aware of any problem. Therefore what you posted is void.

Unless the code violation was discovered as a matter of a routine inspection not "transfer of property dependent".

Now if the property was inspected prior to sale and the problem was detected and tagged as a required fix then the seller and or buyer are liable. Otherwise the county can pack sand.

From what I have been reading there had been inappropriate sales made in Carver County that did not meet the regulations.

These illegal sales do not mean the systems are not to be made compliant, but that criminal actions may come in to play against people involved in the illegal sales.

[monkeymom]

Why
Who (or what) are they harming?

Grass is greener above the old style septics.
Other than that the old style septics, in a rural area, cause zero environmental damage.
NO bunnies are killed, no trees die no fish go belly up, etc.

It is obvious that you have some understanding of how septic systems work, but not enough to make the judgments you are making in this thread.

There are various types of septic systems - in the field these are all referred to as Private Sewage Disposal Systems (PSDS). Older systems consisted of cesspools, but these have not been commonly used for many years. Other systems consist of a combination of a septic tank, seepage pit(s), and/or leachlines. The septic tank is a holding reservoir where solid and liquid waste are separated. The solids remain in the septic tank and are broken down by bacteria in the closed system. Liquids leave the tank and go either to a seepage pit or leachlines. Seepage pits are generally 6 feet in diameter and can be up to 50 feet or more deep - depending on the subsurface geology which includes soil types, depth of bedrock, and groundwater (water table) level. Leachlines are generally 2 feet or so deep, consist of lengths of perforated PVC pipe (used to be clay pipe) and are usually installed over a gravel bed then covered with soil and whatever landscaping. When the liquid waste drains out into the seepage pits or leachlines it then "leaches" out into the soil - this is technically referred to as "percolation".

Now to the question of whether a PSDS too close to the "water table" will potentially damage drinking water. First of all, from what is stated in the article it appears that the elderly couple have a system that employs leachlines for liquid waste dispersal - they refer to "fields" which is a term that would not be used at all for seepage pits. Leachlines are often referred to as leachfields - and are far more common in rural areas where people have more land to work with when designing a septic system. The requirements differ by region - in Southern California septic systems must be designed so that percolation occurs at least 5 feet (may have changed to 10 by now) above groundwater. So first the depth to groundwater is established, then the system is designed accordingly.

The primary reason for establishing a specific depth to groundwater is that as the liquid waste percolates through the subsurface strata it is filtered, aerated, cleaned, etc., so that by the time it mingles with groundwater harmful contaminates have dissipated. If a seepage pit or leach field is too close to groundwater, sufficient filtration does not occur and contaminated liquids seep into the groundwater supply. It does not matter if your wells are fifty feet below this level, the water co-mingles and can all eventually be contaminated.

It may seem silly to worry about 2 elderly people who don't discharge enough waste from their home to have a serious impact on the groundwater in the area, but what about if they have 12 families build homes nearby, and these large families all have equal antipathy toward the regulations?

I am not an enviro nut by any means - I think we are regulated to death and many times it is ridiculous and unnecessary. However, after working for a geologist for over 10 years and knowing how these systems work, I understand the necessity for caution.

[Long Island Bob]

. . . . It may seem silly to worry about 2 elderly people who don't discharge enough waste from their home to have a serious impact on the groundwater in the area, but what about if they have 12 families build homes nearby, and these large families all have equal antipathy toward the regulations? . . .

Well when you start getting into 12 homes 12 wells and 12 septics all in a small area that is a different story. But that is not what's going on here

Frankly speaking the people who wrote the law are eco-lemmings and should be voted out of office.

The prosecutor who brought them up on charges is an eco-freak and should be hanged by his thumbs and flogged with wet spaghetti.

The judge lacks discretion and probably should have found some way to keep them out of jail.

[monkeymom]

Well when you start getting into 12 homes 12 wells and 12 septics all in a small area that is a different story. But that is not what's going on here

Frankly speaking the people who wrote the law are eco-lemmings and should be voted out of office.

The prosecutor who brought them up on charges is an eco-freak and should be hanged by his thumbs and flogged with wet spaghetti.

The judge lacks discretion and probably should have found some way to keep them out of jail.

Your argument is far too simplistic and emotional. Waconia (the city in question) is within Henhepin County, along with Minneapolis. Generally the county sets the regulations for PSDS so Henhepin County has to take into consideration the much more metropolitan regions it governs and write their regulations accordingly. If those in Waconia really feel that they should not have to follow whatever regulations are put in place, then they need to come up with a legitimate reason why and lobby for a change. Refusing to bring your PSDS into code is not an option, and rightfully so.

[Long Island Bob]

Your argument is far too simplistic and emotional. Waconia (the city in question) is within Henhepin County, along with Minneapolis. Generally the county sets the regulations for PSDS so Henhepin County has to take into consideration the much more metropolitan regions it governs and write their regulations accordingly. If those in Waconia really feel that they should not have to follow whatever regulations are put in place, then they need to come up with a legitimate reason why and lobby for a change. Refusing to bring your PSDS into code is not an option, and rightfully so.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&q=Norwood+Young+America&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Norwood+Young+America,+MN&gl=us&ei=AyTKSrnQCY2flAffiKySAw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1

Any law any legislator and any prosecutor that would put these folks in jial is supremely stupid.

Maybe the judge didn't have any choice. but I am still allowed to argue

1. the legislators are stupid over-zealous eco-lemmings
2. The prosecutor is a stupid over-zealous eco-lemmings
3. this story is just another example of the fact that there are far too many stupid over-zealous eco-lemmings runing around writing laws, teaching our kids etc.

(Hence the reason I originally posted this on the Wash Pol forum)

[johnrocks]

It sounds like the couple are trying to intentionally be a pain in the ass. If so the claim "elderly" loses any interest in my book. They can go to jail like anyone else.

They may be ****ed because the County has the same problem yet won't fix their own system. What's up with that?:think:

I had to install a system when I built my home, I jumped through hoop after hoop, they said I lived in a flood plain yet if my place floods, this entire part of my State is going under, finally I got a variance but it was a pain in the ass.