People, this is a time in history to remember

[nunyadb]

I've taken some time today and tonight to do some reading of some of the
better and more thoughtful threads on some various issues.

Everything from what to do about Iran to why there is such a deep
divide between societal belief structures in this nation.

Doing so, I came to a rather odd conclusion.
You may feel free to disagree if you choose, this is my own
conclusion based upon what I know of history and the patterns
of the rise and fall of civilizations.

The current civilization that we live in, the society that forms it,
here in the U.S., is falling apart.

We are actual witnesses to the death of a civilization.
It is happening around us as we go through our daily lives.
So it is something of a rare moment in history when a society
can recognize this, at least some members of it anyway,
and sort of "make notes" if you will.

The moral fabric of this society has now been almost completely
shredded to the point where there is no actual accepted moral norms
to go by. There are those who still adhere to the old standards,
and there are those that would impose their own ideas of new,
and better to their mind, replacement standards, and then there are
those who actually have no desire for any standards at all.

The founding basic legal structure of our form of government has for
all intents and purposes been decreed invalid, null, void, and of nothing
but perhaps some vague historical value. If of any value at all.
"The Constitution was written too long ago and things have changed too much
for it to work any more."
Seems to be the standard that is applied by our rulers, and the courts.
So we no longer have restrictions on the powers of our rulers or the powers
that they may grant unto themselves in the future.

Respect of one another's personal beliefs is no longer fashionable either.

Our treasury is depleted and even under the most extraordinary of circumstances
we could not hope for the debt to be totally paid for in the next 3 generations.
We have squandered our nation's wealth and it's capacity to generate new
wealth on the altar of personal greed, selfishness, and short sightedness with
no care for the future of the nation as a whole, all for the sole purpose of instant
self-gratification.

We are indeed in "interesting times" as they say.

We cannot come to any real decision about how to handle any of the true
underlying problems because we have ceased to be one single common
society. We have fractured into a balkanized state of many societies under
one roof, each convinced that it must take from the others in order to
"get it's own slice" of the pie without regard for or respect for any other set
of beliefs or the founding principles that allowed this nation to rise in the
first place.

The war with terrorism:
Some wish to actually fight it and fight it to win.
Others wish to not fight it all.
Still others see the cost to an empty treasury and desire to not
take on a battle that we cannot afford.
None give thought to the simple fact that if the nation dies,
the amount of wealth in the treasury matters not.

Social conflicts:
Gays vs straights, atheist vs religious, etc.
None of these are willing to simply coexist with the others and leave
any form of status quo that would allow societal balance.

No society that is at war both within and with multiple fronts of
enemies without can survive. History has proven this time and again.
Now it is our turn to fold into the pages of history.

Everything I've ever learned in my lifetime tells me that we are indeed
having the rare opportunity to watch the death of a society, a civilization,
and a form of government all at the same time.

So even if you don't believe what I've written, make some notes from
time to time about how things are today. How you live, what you do,
where you like to go and how you like to get there.
Some of the more remarkable things that you see that we all take
for granted and simply don't notice anymore.

I'm certain that future generations will find the information useful and
probably in some ways entertaining.

[opsyscw]

We are able, unlike previous collaspe's to a civilization, to watch as we self destruct thanks to the age of modern technology, i.e. the internet, cable and satallite TV, cell phones, etc. And these innovations will speed along the process, contrary to what their intentions were. They give everyone a platform to push their own personal agendas onto others, where in past civilizations, it was the elitists in government who took them down. Not saying that our government isn't doing a fine job in the destruction, just that they now have a lot more help.

[StoneScratcher]

The big squeeze. This, to me, is what is happpening.

We are being squeezed into REDEFINITIONS of old terms into new definitions we have to learn (because if we don't we'll be cut off from understanding what the "new" message is). We are being squeezed into revisionist acceptance of past and current events.

Redefining and revisionism are squeezing out the OLD, at such a startling speed that it is all one can do to keep up with the revisionism and the new definitions.

The old is being LOST. The old, isn't some crooked stick to be tossed, it is TRADITION, it is filled with a wealth of wisdom from experience.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this--but even if you try to search something in a major search engine (yeah, that one), you will be hard pressed to find what was, because what is being flashed up on top, pages long, is what you are being told IS.

Was isn't. Is is.

[nunyadb]

The biggest problem that we have is that we now define ourselves
internally by our "differences", not what we all hold in common.
Of course, these days, there is no "one thing" that binds us in
common identity or purpose. Essentially, that process of internal
fracturing is almost totally complete now.

[StoneScratcher]

The biggest problem that we have is that we now define ourselves
internally by our "differences", not what we all hold in common.
Of course, these days, there is no "one thing" that binds us in
common identity or purpose. Essentially, that process of internal
fracturing is almost totally complete now.

But if the government gets big enough (as it is), they can unite everyone.

Notice how wants are being STRIPPED away. You can't want anything anymore, without there being some label attached. If you think about it, personal, individual "wants" (even wants for groups/family, etc) are being squeezed out.

NEED is being forced upon us.

You gotta NEED something. And the magic mystery turn to the government will fulfill that need. All needs.

The government can unite us all through us all NEEDING.

Out of many (needs), one (supplier, the government).

Edited to add:

Great thread, nunya! You're one of my favorite posters, and thanks too, for that mention yesterday! I'm heading off for a busy day!

[opsyscw]

What you are is where you were when.

Think about it.

[kaydahl]

It's January 1993, halftime of the AFL playoff game between the Buffalo Bills and the Houston Oilers. Not looking good for the Bills who are down 28-3. Do you think Marv Levy stood in front of his players and said, look guys, the writing is on the wall...?

Our attitudes shape our destiny. People who take stock of challenges facing us as a nation and decide that we might as well throw in the towel are simply not team players IMO. They have actively chosen defeat over victory.

Personally I want no part of that attitude. I'm staying on the field against all odds.

[opsyscw]

It's January 1993, halftime of the AFL playoff game between the Buffalo Bills and the Houston Oilers. Not looking good for the Bills who are down 28-3. Do you think Marv Levy stood in front of his players and said, look guys, the writing is on the wall...?

Our attitudes shape our destiny. People who take stock of challenges facing us as a nation and decide that we might as well throw in the towel are simply not team players IMO. They have actively chosen defeat over victory.

Personally I want no part of that attitude. I'm staying on the field against all odds.
I'm not a football fan, but curious. Who won?

[nunyadb]

But if the government gets big enough (as it is), they can unite everyone.

Notice how wants are being STRIPPED away. You can't want anything anymore, without there being some label attached. If you think about it, personal, individual "wants" (even wants for groups/family, etc) are being squeezed out.

NEED is being forced upon us.

You gotta NEED something. And the magic mystery turn to the government will fulfill that need. All needs.

The government can unite us all through us all NEEDING.

Out of many (needs), one (supplier, the government).


No Stone, It can't. It will of course make the attempt.
However, the solid reality of the truth on this is that there are simply too many
such as myself still alive that this is unacceptable as a condition under
which to live.
So, the attempt will fail, and thus feed even deeper fractures into the system.

Our rulers no longer even pay lip service to abiding by the strictures on their
power that were so carefully thought out and placed into our founding legal
basis document.

That is also an unacceptable way for some to live under.

You see, the cracks were there, they were always there, but as long as the
society accepted one single standard as a whole, then there was enough
cohesiveness in "tribal identity" if you will , to hold the whole together.
That single thing, regardless of what it may be , no longer exists.
So that "identity" is now a memory, but not a solid binding element.

So what comes next is as inevitable as rain during a thunderstorm.

[59Flash]

It's January 1993, halftime of the AFL playoff game between the Buffalo Bills and the Houston Oilers. Not looking good for the Bills who are down 28-3. Do you think Marv Levy stood in front of his players and said, look guys, the writing is on the wall...?

Our attitudes shape our destiny. People who take stock of challenges facing us as a nation and decide that we might as well throw in the towel are simply not team players IMO. They have actively chosen defeat over victory.

Personally I want no part of that attitude. I'm staying on the field against all odds.

I was at that game!

[nunyadb]

It's January 1993, halftime of the AFL playoff game between the Buffalo Bills and the Houston Oilers. Not looking good for the Bills who are down 28-3. Do you think Marv Levy stood in front of his players and said, look guys, the writing is on the wall...?

Our attitudes shape our destiny. People who take stock of challenges facing us as a nation and decide that we might as well throw in the towel are simply not team players IMO. They have actively chosen defeat over victory.

Personally I want no part of that attitude. I'm staying on the field against all odds.


I am not saying that no attempt should be made.
I am saying that the odds are, no matter what attempt is made,
this game is over.
What we can decide, is the manner in which the game ends.

[UK Glenmont]

I'm not a football fan, but curious. Who won?

frank reich (Buffalos BACK-UP QB), led them to one of the greatest comebacks in NFL playoff history!

incredible game, i watched it live and still dont believe it.

this was against warren moon and the run and gun offense that scored MAD points on everybody, incredible.

AND, i hate the stinking Bills:)

im a Cleveland Clowns fans.

[kaydahl]

I'm not a football fan, but curious. Who won?

The Bills. 41-38.

[nunyadb]

Kaydahl, I wonder if the thoughts would have been the same had the score
read the same and there were only 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter.
Which on the "civilization clock" is about where we are at.

[kaydahl]

I was at that game!

Best investment you ever made....those tickets? :)

[msny]

I've taken some time today and tonight to do some reading of some of the
better and more thoughtful threads on some various issues.

Everything from what to do about Iran to why there is such a deep
divide between societal belief structures in this nation.

Doing so, I came to a rather odd conclusion.
You may feel free to disagree if you choose, this is my own
conclusion based upon what I know of history and the patterns
of the rise and fall of civilizations.

The current civilization that we live in, the society that forms it,
here in the U.S., is falling apart.

We are actual witnesses to the death of a civilization.
It is happening around us as we go through our daily lives.
So it is something of a rare moment in history when a society
can recognize this, at least some members of it anyway,
and sort of "make notes" if you will.

The moral fabric of this society has now been almost completely
shredded to the point where there is no actual accepted moral norms
to go by. There are those who still adhere to the old standards,
and there are those that would impose their own ideas of new,
and better to their mind, replacement standards, and then there are
those who actually have no desire for any standards at all.

The founding basic legal structure of our form of government has for
all intents and purposes been decreed invalid, null, void, and of nothing
but perhaps some vague historical value. If of any value at all.
"The Constitution was written too long ago and things have changed too much
for it to work any more."
Seems to be the standard that is applied by our rulers, and the courts.
So we no longer have restrictions on the powers of our rulers or the powers
that they may grant unto themselves in the future.

Respect of one another's personal beliefs is no longer fashionable either.

Our treasury is depleted and even under the most extraordinary of circumstances
we could not hope for the debt to be totally paid for in the next 3 generations.
We have squandered our nation's wealth and it's capacity to generate new
wealth on the altar of personal greed, selfishness, and short sightedness with
no care for the future of the nation as a whole, all for the sole purpose of instant
self-gratification.

We are indeed in "interesting times" as they say.

We cannot come to any real decision about how to handle any of the true
underlying problems because we have ceased to be one single common
society. We have fractured into a balkanized state of many societies under
one roof, each convinced that it must take from the others in order to
"get it's own slice" of the pie without regard for or respect for any other set
of beliefs or the founding principles that allowed this nation to rise in the
first place.

The war with terrorism:
Some wish to actually fight it and fight it to win.
Others wish to not fight it all.
Still others see the cost to an empty treasury and desire to not
take on a battle that we cannot afford.
None give thought to the simple fact that if the nation dies,
the amount of wealth in the treasury matters not.

Social conflicts:
Gays vs straights, atheist vs religious, etc.
None of these are willing to simply coexist with the others and leave
any form of status quo that would allow societal balance.

No society that is at war both within and with multiple fronts of
enemies without can survive. History has proven this time and again.
Now it is our turn to fold into the pages of history.

Everything I've ever learned in my lifetime tells me that we are indeed
having the rare opportunity to watch the death of a society, a civilization,
and a form of government all at the same time.

So even if you don't believe what I've written, make some notes from
time to time about how things are today. How you live, what you do,
where you like to go and how you like to get there.
Some of the more remarkable things that you see that we all take
for granted and simply don't notice anymore.

I'm certain that future generations will find the information useful and
probably in some ways entertaining.

I agree to a point.

I think we are in decline now, but things can be turned around.
Our best days could be before us not behind.

It takes people not only willing to stand up and say NO to the
current sociaism but to clean house of all these corrupt
politicians. If that anger we saw this past summer
in the healthcare meetings were directed in a postive fashion
at DC in general, it would be a start.

I'm hoping for the best.
I'd like to err on optimism, rather then pessimism.
Short of that, there is no hope.

We may now know how typical Romans felt
in there last days of a great civilization.

[fava]

All successful civilizations die. They implode from their own success.
For the most part, success breeds apathy and apathy reverses the thrust of the civilization.
We are dead men walking exactly like every civilization that preceded us.

[59Flash]

Best investment you ever made....those tickets? :)

Yeah. I remember that it was a real warm day too, we all came over dressed. The only down side was that my buddy flew a US 48 star flag in the parking lot and when the game was over the flag was gone.

[nunyadb]

I agree to a point.

I think we are in decline now, but things can be turned around.
Our best days could be before us not behind.

It takes people not only willing to stand up and say NO to the
current sociaism but to clean house of all these corrupt
politicians. If that anger we saw this past summer
in the healthcare meetings were directed in a postive fashion
at DC in general, it would be a start.

I'm hoping for the best.
I'd like to err on optimism, rather then pessimism.
Short of that, there is no hope.

We may now know how typical Romans felt
in there last days of a great civilization.


What it would take is a society that had one single cohesive voice
to turn this around at this stage of things.
We do not have that and do not have the means to create that any more.
We are no longer a single society. That is the problem and the root cause
of the internal collapse.

[UK Glenmont]

All successful civilizations die. They implode from their own success.
For the most part, success breeds apathy and apathy reverses the thrust of the civilization.
We are dead men walking exactly like every civilization that preceded us.

what a downer, but i see apathy all around me:(

i try to get people fired up and i get "what can i do, i dont make a difference"

"they are all crooks, whats the difference?"

"you cant do anything about it, why worry about it?"

"whats my one vote going to do?"

and my all time favorite...

"we dont vote because my husband/wife would just cancel out my vote, so why bother?"

[msny]

It's January 1993, halftime of the AFL playoff game between the Buffalo Bills and the Houston Oilers. Not looking good for the Bills who are down 28-3. Do you think Marv Levy stood in front of his players and said, look guys, the writing is on the wall...?

Our attitudes shape our destiny. People who take stock of challenges facing us as a nation and decide that we might as well throw in the towel are simply not team players IMO. They have actively chosen defeat over victory.

Personally I want no part of that attitude. I'm staying on the field against all odds.

Agreed.

A captain can go down with his ship for the honor of it all...
Or he live to fight another day and get in the lifeboat.

It is all about our attitudes and how we want to focus it.

[kaydahl]

Kaydahl, I wonder if the thoughts would have been the same had the score
read the same and there were only 2 minutes left in the 4th quarter.
Which on the "civilization clock" is about where we are at.

You mean like where George Washington was at on Christmas Day 1776?

2 minutes left, 30 seconds left.....and the writing on the wall.. But the firemen still ran into the WTC.

The American spirit doesn't die on its own. It dies when people make the choice to kill it.

[fava]

What it would take is a society that had one single cohesive voice
to turn this around at this stage of things.
We do not have that and do not have the means to create that any more.
We are no longer a single society. That is the problem and the root cause
of the internal collapse.

We are no longer a cohesive society because we have reached a level of success in our lives and have grown to a point where we no longer recognize or understand the basis of how we got to this point.
We have reduced ourselves to arguing over the footnotes of our success as if it was the basis of our very existence.

[kaydahl]

What it would take is a society that had one single cohesive voice
to turn this around at this stage of things.
We do not have that and do not have the means to create that any more.
We are no longer a single society. That is the problem and the root cause
of the internal collapse.

The good old days of unity....like the 1860s?

[kaydahl]

Agreed.

A captain can go down with his ship for the honor of it all...
Or he live to fight another day and get in the lifeboat.

It is all about our attitudes and how we want to focus it.

There are so many Biblical teachings that reflect that lesson... It surprises me to observe more conservatives than libs calling the demise of the US.

[msny]

What it would take is a society that had one single cohesive voice
to turn this around at this stage of things.
We do not have that and do not have the means to create that any more.
We are no longer a single society. That is the problem and the root cause
of the internal collapse.

In times past using history, it took strong leaders and leadership.
IF we had that spark, it could be turned around.
We need a Washington, a Jefferson ect.
Maybe a new revolution is needed?

But the clock is ticking on us, and the longer this type of
goverment rules, it brings us to the brink of ruin.

[kaydahl]

We are no longer a cohesive society because we have reached a level of success in our lives and have grown to a point where we no longer recognize or understand the basis of how we got to this point.
We have reduced ourselves to arguing over the footnotes of our success as if it was the basis of our very existence.

Material comfort and wealth do tend to breed complacency, I agree.

We recently spent a weekend at home with friends playing board games, instead of dinner and entertainment out. And had a blast. Maybe wouldn't even have thought about doing it if the financial downturn hadn't made us more conscious of where our money goes.

[msny]

There are so many Biblical teachings that reflect that lesson... It surprises me to observe more conservatives than libs calling the demise of the US.

Its depressing really.

Faith and hope are part of our tradition.
So is our beleif that we should trust in God.

Americans have died to make sure we use the freedoms
we have to make it better for our children.

I'm an older baby boomer. As I hear the stories from my aunt,
mom and dad in there struggles during WW2, i cant help
but want to continue to fight for what they beleived.

[nunyadb]

In times past using history, it took strong leaders and leadership.
IF we had that spark, it could be turned around.
We need a Washington, a Jefferson ect.
Maybe a new revolution is needed?

But the clock is ticking on us, and the longer this type of
goverment rules, it brings us to the brink of ruin.

If this is to be averted, at all, providing that it still can be, which I doubt,
then the one thing we need, the ONLY thing we need is that "one thing"
to bind us together. In the case of Americans, that has never been the
nation of origin for our ancestors, it has never been our religions if any,
it HAS BEEN the firm and abiding knowledge of the actual text of the founding
document of our government. Not what word parsers "say" that it states,
but the actual knowing what it states for ourselves.

If every one of us would simply take the time to read it, learn it by heart,
and place the plain meaning of the actual words written there to the front
of our minds, then the CONSTITUTION could be that "one thing".

However, from what I've seen, there are too many in this nation already
that receive gifts and favors for their willingness to deny "parts and pieces"
of it and thus weaken the whole of it.

If this nation is to survive, it must first reaffirm the identity of it's people.
That national identity is based upon the Constitution, The Bill of Rights,
and the Declaration of Independence.

Without that single binding element, we're finished.

[nunyadb]

The good old days of unity....like the 1860s?

I have not suggested such.
However, before I will live as a slave under any form of tyranny, I do reserve
the right to defend myself, my family, and my property.
If that be called treason, then so be it.

[kaydahl]

Its depressing really.

Faith and hope are part of our tradition.
So is our beleif that we should trust in God.

Americans have died to make sure we use the freedoms
we have to make it better for our children.

I'm an older baby boomer. As I hear the stories from my aunt,
mom and dad in there struggles during WW2, i cant help
but want to continue to fight for what they beleived.

I'm at the younger end of boomer. And heard the same stories--about the Depression, too. And how rotten things got during the 60s. And agree that I also want to continue to fight.

Personally I've been impressed by the kids I know who are currently around 16-20. they give me great hope.

You said it all: Faith and hope are part of our tradition. So is our belief that we should trust in God.

[kaydahl]

I have not suggested such.
However, before I will live as a slave under any form of tyranny, I do reserve
the right to defend myself, my family, and my property.
If that be called treason, then so be it.

My point is that you won't get far in your defense when your mantra is "If this is to be averted, at all, providing that it still can be, which I doubt..."

[nunyadb]

My point is that you won't get far in your defense when your mantra is "If this is to be averted, at all, providing that it still can be, which I doubt..."

I do doubt it. With good reason.
There is roughly half of our nation that has a vested interest in the old
nation, society falling apart.

We have major enemies on the outside of our borders in multiple locations
and we have a citizenry that is so spoiled, so soft, and so self absorbed into
their own personal desires that they consider their fellow citizens the bigger
threat and even a large portion of our citizens who actively take the side of
those who have vowed publicly to cause our downfall.

We have squandered our treasury to the point where no amount of single
lifetime payment would be sufficient to even pay the interest due on the debt,
and have taken the extraordinary measures of destroying (intentionally ) our
internal wealth generation capabilities to the point that it would take more than
a single lifetime to rebuild them.

I could continue, but there's no point in doing so.
We are in the tide of history and without something truly extraordinary
happening, this nation, society, and civilization is indeed destined for the
pages of future history books.
Soon.

[nunyadb]

My point is that you won't get far in your defense when your mantra is "If this is to be averted, at all, providing that it still can be, which I doubt..."

One more question, from what exactly am I supposed to be defending myself ?

From being an accurate observer of historical trends ?

Somehow I think that was not your intent.

I made an observation, and now you consider me a traitor or insurrectionist
for having done so. Fascinating.

[Czhorat]

If this is to be averted, at all, providing that it still can be, which I doubt,
then the one thing we need, the ONLY thing we need is that "one thing"
to bind us together. In the case of Americans, that has never been the
nation of origin for our ancestors, it has never been our religions if any,
it HAS BEEN the firm and abiding knowledge of the actual text of the founding
document of our government. Not what word parsers "say" that it states,
but the actual knowing what it states for ourselves.

Would those who interpret the Constutition more broadly than you and see, for example, a right for gay marriage in their reading of the 14th Amerndment also be part of this American unity of yours, or do you only mean people who read the Constitution the same way you do?

[kaydahl]

Again....my point is that you are making a choice. I understand your logic. I don't choose it.

If half our nation is bent on making us fall apart, and that half is energized and hopeful with the other half deciding all is lost....which half contributes more to the eventual outcome?


I do doubt it. With good reason.
There is roughly half of our nation that has a vested interest in the old
nation, society falling apart.

We have major enemies on the outside of our borders in multiple locations
and we have a citizenry that is so spoiled, so soft, and so self absorbed into
their own personal desires that they consider their fellow citizens the bigger
threat and even a large portion of our citizens who actively take the side of
those who have vowed publicly to cause our downfall.

We have squandered our treasury to the point where no amount of single
lifetime payment would be sufficient to even pay the interest due on the debt,
and have taken the extraordinary measures of destroying (intentionally ) our
internal wealth generation capabilities to the point that it would take more than
a single lifetime to rebuild them.

I could continue, but there's no point in doing so.
We are in the tide of history and without something truly extraordinary
happening, this nation, society, and civilization is indeed destined for the
pages of future history books.
Soon.

[nunyadb]

Would those who interpret the Constutition more broadly than you and see, for example, a right for gay marriage in their reading of the 14th Amerndment also be part of this American unity of yours, or do you only mean people who read the Constitution the same way you do?

Nowhere in the Constitution does the Federal Government have the right to
confirm or deny gay "marriage".

That is the sole province of the States, or the people.

The powers not explicitly granted to the Fed are reserved to the several states
and the people therein.

[nunyadb]

Again....my point is that you are making a choice. I understand your logic. I don't choose it.

If half our nation is bent on making us fall apart, and that half is energized and hopeful with the other half deciding all is lost....which half contributes more to the eventual outcome?

When such a situation exists, there are only two choices.
One is for one side to subjugate the other and force them to accede to their wishes.
Which means an internal civil war, often neighbor against neighbor.
With the "winner" being considered a conqueror for the next two generations.

The other is to refuse to accede or to subjugate.
In which case dissolution is the end result.

[kaydahl]

One more question, from what exactly am I supposed to be defending myself ?

From being an accurate observer of historical trends ?

Somehow I think that was not your intent.

I made an observation, and now you consider me a traitor or insurrectionist
for having done so. Fascinating.

You said, "I do reserve the right to defend myself, my family, and my property." So I assume that you have the answer to your own question of what it is your are defending yourself from.

You are actively arguing for the attitude that the future of America is doomed to failure. Maybe that is traitorous. But I haven't been thinking along those lines.

I do have the impression that you are at a spiritual low. And I observe that you are fighting all attempts to nudge you toward a more optimistic, faithful look at the future.

It mostly makes me feel sad.

[kaydahl]

When such a situation exists, there are only two choices.
One is for one side to subjugate the other and force them to accede to their wishes.
Which means an internal civil war, often neighbor against neighbor.
With the "winner" being considered a conqueror for the next two generations.

The other is to refuse to accede or to subjugate.
In which case dissolution is the end result.

Choice #3: A synthesis of the best from both sides and a forward movement from that point.

Are you married? People who are married are usually pretty familiar with this option :)

[nunyadb]

You said, "I do reserve the right to defend myself, my family, and my property." So I assume that you have the answer to your own question of what it is your are defending yourself from.

You are actively arguing for the attitude that the future of America is doomed to failure. Maybe that is traitorous. But I haven't been thinking along those lines.

I do have the impression that you are at a spiritual low. And I observe that you are fighting all attempts to nudge you toward a more optimistic, faithful look at the future.

It mostly makes me feel sad.



Not so much "low" as coming to a point of "acceptance" that no matter
what I do or attempt to do, whatever comes out of this will not be the
nation, society, or civilization that I fought for and my children are in service
to today.

There has been a concerted effort for some decades to destroy the binding
fabric of what makes us "one nation". That attempt appears to have been
successful.


In the entire recorded history of mankind, no nation has survived
when there is a significant struggle within the population itself, combined
with multiple external enemies and a depleted treasury.
Perhaps it can happen, but to date it has not.

[Bluesgtr44]

One more question, from what exactly am I supposed to be defending myself ?

From being an accurate observer of historical trends ?

Somehow I think that was not your intent.

I made an observation, and now you consider me a traitor or insurrectionist
for having done so. Fascinating.

Yep....you have to point out the problem/issue/adversity before you can start coming up with any solutions. And pointing out some of those, you did very well. Now, if others are not understanding or liking how this works......there's probably an agenda or cause that would not benefit from your particular approach here and it is that which is being defended.

[Czhorat]

Not so much "low" as coming to a point of "acceptance" that no matter
what I do or attempt to do, whatever comes out of this will not be the
nation, society, or civilization that I fought for and my children are in service
to today.

There has been a concerted effort for some decades to destroy the binding
fabric of what makes us "one nation". That attempt appears to have been
successful.

Ah, the "good old days". Back when we were young and America was the America of our fathers.

The sad truth is that every generation has seen the world this way; had there been an internet five decades ago, one would see exactly the same posts about how rock and roll music was a sign of moral decline, how forced "race mixing" would lead to the end of traditional American values, how letting wives press rape charges against their husbands weaken the traditional patriarchal family structure.

I found this quote from the OP very telling:
Social conflicts:
Gays vs straights, atheist vs religious, etc.
None of these are willing to simply coexist with the others and leave
any form of status quo that would allow societal balance.

This, to me, says that those who feel that they are oppressed should just live with it and that society is fine the way it is. It's the call of those in the "in" group saying that the "out" group should just shut up and not make waves so we can all get along.

Why not, in the area of social conflict, say that some politicians cynically use prejudice as a wedge issue to win votes while dividing the populace? Would you consider that less true, or does it just not fit in with your political agenda?

[agent_86]

It doesn't seem that America as a nation, has much fight left in us. In order for us to change our government, our destiny, or course, we have to have passion and be willing to fight and even die for a cause.

The only thing we seem to be passionate about anymore is political correctness.

Personal freedom and liberty used to be the cause of all causes. Now its whatever the government can give me for free.

Its almost like people just got tired of liberty and freedom, its boring to them.

I say. "Live free or die."

[kaydahl]

I would say that history shows no nation has come out of those circumstances unchanged.

When you assert (and I also believe in what you say here) "The powers not explicitly granted to the Fed are reserved to the several states and the people therein," should must necessarily lead to a singular outcome? Or is the intent to create a unified whole while at the same time honoring individual diversity?

Not so much "low" as coming to a point of "acceptance" that no matter
what I do or attempt to do, whatever comes out of this will not be the
nation, society, or civilization that I fought for and my children are in service
to today.

There has been a concerted effort for some decades to destroy the binding
fabric of what makes us "one nation". That attempt appears to have been
successful.


In the entire recorded history of mankind, no nation has survived
when there is a significant struggle within the population itself, combined
with multiple external enemies and a depleted treasury.
Perhaps it can happen, but to date it has not.

[ThrowCop]

The glass is half full...

I appreciate the sentiment but pessimism is not the answer, IMO. We have dealt with more perilous issues and divisions in our past & have come away stronger.

These times are no different.

We must CHOOSE to make it different.

[rckirby]

Excellent thread Nunyadb. You have eloquently written what I been feeling for quite a while. (Several years).

I had even told my grandson a few weeks ago (while we rode down to DC on the 12th) that we were at a crossroads in our history.

All one has to do is watch TV and compare to what we had seen back in the 50's. There was always a sense of decorum and politeness.

Watching TV today (even the commercials) is an assault on the senses. I don't want 'laws' to restrain it, I just want the people to rise up and say 'ugh, enough' and quit watching and demand better.

I believe strongly in God, but I don't want religion mixed with lawmaking. BUT, I believe there should be a strong root of morality, along with the true spirit of the Constitution, in anyone charged with lawmaking.

What I'm hoping for is this:

That even though we are about 1 foot from the precipice, things are going to get much much worse economically, so that even those who are apathetic today, cannot help but wake up and take notice.

Hopefully they will look around and start asking questions, at which time we who have seen this coming will educate them. We may then become united and engaged.

Our generation (baby boomers) have an important role. Mainly for being old enough to remember our history, educate and inspire, yet still young enough to 'fight'.

If we can't stop the slide over the edge, then we will indeed, be another page in history. Unfortunately, the way it will be written will be in no way accurate as to what has really happened.

It will have to be "United We Stand"........once again.

[ValricoKate]

The glass is half full...

I appreciate the sentiment but pessimism is not the answer, IMO. We have dealt with more perilous issues and divisions in our past & have come away stronger.

These times are no different.

We must CHOOSE to make it different.

:clap:

It is going to be very hard though. We need to realize it.
People will go through bouts of extreme discouragement.
Encouragement should be the order of the day. It will be a very tiring process.

[rckirby]

The glass is half full...

I appreciate the sentiment but pessimism is not the answer, IMO. We have dealt with more perilous issues and divisions in our past & have come away stronger.

These times are no different.

We must CHOOSE to make it different.

:)

Us 'oldsters' personal glass is over half empty.........that is probably why you see more sense of urgency in us to stop the slide.

Even if all else were peachy-keen, the economy alone would be enough to raise the hairs on our collective wrinkled necks.:cry:

[ValricoKate]

Nunya,
Thanks for this thread it needed to be said.
I've not given up just yet.

It will be very hard. One thing that keeps me in the fight is that I've looked around and there is no other place to move . If we lose this, it is lost.

Something about having your back up against a wall will keep you going.

[ThrowCop]

:)

Us 'oldsters' personal glass is over half empty.........that is probably why you see more sense of urgency in us to stop the slide.

Even if all else were peachy-keen, the economy alone would be enough to raise the hairs on our collective wrinkled necks.:cry:I again think we need to look at history. Even in the average Boomers lifetime, the economy has been worse in many aspects. I do believe that this thread - while despondent - does illustrate that we cannot continue with our, "lesser of two evils" mentality.

[nunyadb]

Ah, the "good old days". Back when we were young and America was the America of our fathers.

The sad truth is that every generation has seen the world this way; had there been an internet five decades ago, one would see exactly the same posts about how rock and roll music was a sign of moral decline, how forced "race mixing" would lead to the end of traditional American values, how letting wives press rape charges against their husbands weaken the traditional patriarchal family structure.

I found this quote from the OP very telling:

This, to me, says that those who feel that they are oppressed should just live with it and that society is fine the way it is. It's the call of those in the "in" group saying that the "out" group should just shut up and not make waves so we can all get along.

Why not, in the area of social conflict, say that some politicians cynically use prejudice as a wedge issue to win votes while dividing the populace? Would you consider that less true, or does it just not fit in with your political agenda?

Actually, the corruption of the politician was covered.
I have no political agenda with this post.
Sad that you read one into it instead of attempting to make use
of the historical truths it contains.

[kaydahl]

:clap:

It is going to be very hard though. We need to realize it.
People will go through bouts of extreme discouragement.
Encouragement should be the order of the day. It will be a very tiring process.

:flag: Amen to both you and ThrowCop.

[nunyadb]

I would say that history shows no nation has come out of those circumstances unchanged.

When you assert (and I also believe in what you say here) "The powers not explicitly granted to the Fed are reserved to the several states and the people therein," should must necessarily lead to a singular outcome? Or is the intent to create a unified whole while at the same time honoring individual diversity?

What most people these days fail to look at and consider is that the individual
colonies did not share the same religious tenets except in a general way.
They also had developed similar, yet different cultural norms that worked for
them. The entire intent of the Founders was to make certain that the Fed Gov
could not force beliefs onto the people of the several states.
Hence the "no official state religion" parts of it.

The intent was to insure that there not only could be, but would be a unified
whole that respected the differences inherent in the separate cultures that
each of the colonies had developed and intended to maintain.

This is why certain powers were absolutely denied to the Fed and expressly
left to the several states and the people that resided in them.

[Greyclouds]

The precipitous decline of a nation is an inevitability.

With the comforts of civilization come complacency.

Other aggressive human beings (with selectively lower expression of monoamine oxidases) will attack civilizations in order to secure their own selfish desires. Aggression is a human genetic trait that is selected for in uncivilized human populations.

[kaydahl]

I agree with this. And I am committed to preserve the vision of diversity within a united whole. I have serious concerns with the expansion of federal government.

I'm simply fighting, as best I can, against the choices of pessimism and acceptance of defeat.

What most people these days fail to look at and consider is that the individual
colonies did not share the same religious tenets except in a general way.
They also had developed similar, yet different cultural norms that worked for
them. The entire intent of the Founders was to make certain that the Fed Gov
could not force beliefs onto the people of the several states.
Hence the "no official state religion" parts of it.

The intent was to insure that there not only could be, but would be a unified
whole that respected the differences inherent in the separate cultures that
each of the colonies had developed and intended to maintain.

This is why certain powers were absolutely denied to the Fed and expressly
left to the several states and the people that resided in them.

[Czhorat]

Actually, the corruption of the politician was covered.
I have no political agenda with this post.
Sad that you read one into it instead of attempting to make use
of the historical truths it contains.

Your repeating the phrase "historical truths" doesn't add any gravitas to the original post; all I see is a vague denunciation of the manner in which society has changed from what you see as an idealized past. The only historical truth I can read in it is the one that every generation thinks that theirs is the last great one, and that the morals of today's youth are in a sad state of decay.

[nunyadb]

I again think we need to look at history. Even in the average Boomers lifetime, the economy has been worse in many aspects. I do believe that this thread - while despondent - does illustrate that we cannot continue with our, "lesser of two evils" mentality.

The economy has been worse, yes.
The debt level has never been higher though.
Also we still had means of producing for ourselves.

When you add the three together, it's bad, really bad.
Add the other factors in, well............you get the picture.

We either get it together, now, and fix it, or we don't get another chance.
That's my read on this.

[kaydahl]

The precipitous decline of a nation is an inevitability.

With the comforts of civilization come complacency.

Other aggressive human beings (with selectively lower expression of monoamine oxidases) will attack civilizations in order to secure their own selfish desires. Aggression is a human genetic trait that is selected for in uncivilized human populations.

Aggression (assertion) is essential to survival. How that aggresive force is applied does indeed vary according to the degree of development/civilization.

Rises and falls are the natural order. I'm not so sure that what we perceive as dead and gone forever is not simply "underground" waiting for spring :)

[ValricoKate]

The economy has been worse, yes.
The debt level has never been higher though.
Also we still had means of producing for ourselves.

When you add the three together, it's bad, really bad.
Add the other factors in, well............you get the picture.

We either get it together, now, and fix it, or we don't get another chance.
That's my read on this.

Undoubtedly, I am w/ you here, it is a now or never scenario.

The ship needs to be righted w/ are taking on water at an alarming rate and the rocks are just ahead.

[nunyadb]

Your repeating the phrase "historical truths" doesn't add any gravitas to the original post; all I see is a vague denunciation of the manner in which society has changed from what you see as an idealized past. The only historical truth I can read in it is the one that every generation thinks that theirs is the last great one, and that the morals of today's youth are in a sad state of decay.

Did you ever study history ? Rise and fall of civilizations ? That sort of thing ?

Every civilization that came along and succeeded had a common moral norm.
As long as they kept that, they prospered.
A societal norm is required for the sake of the identity of the society and the
culture. It is a requirement for the survival of the society and civilization.

These norms evolve and change over time.
Long periods of time.
This allows the society to continue to have an identifiable thing
that binds them in a common belief and thus they can self identify
with the society as a whole.

When a society loses that binding norm and it's sense of identity
as one whole unit, then chaos ensues.
With social disorder comes the fall of the institutions that once
helped maintain that societal identity as well.

When a sufficient number of the persons within that society no
longer accept the norms and thus no longer identify as being
"part" of that society, it fractures, then it collapses.

This isn't about what "you" want, or what "I" want.
This is simply a historical fact.

Some great civilizations are conquered from without,
most however collapse from within for the reason I listed.

No civilization can withstand the multiple stresses of internal
societal collapse, depleted resources, and multiple external
enemies.

It has never been done.

This isn't about my "politics", this is about national survival
as a single entity on the world stage.

[kaydahl]

The economy has been worse, yes.
The debt level has never been higher though.
Also we still had means of producing for ourselves.

When you add the three together, it's bad, really bad.
Add the other factors in, well............you get the picture.

We either get it together, now, and fix it, or we don't get another chance.
That's my read on this.

From a tiny mustard seed....onward!

[Radical Leftist]

Did you ever study history ? Rise and fall of civilizations ? That sort of thing ?

Every civilization that came along and succeeded had a common moral norm.
As long as they kept that, they prospered.
A societal norm is required for the sake of the identity of the society and the
culture. It is a requirement for the survival of the society and civilization.

These norms evolve and change over time.
Long periods of time.
This allows the society to continue to have an identifiable thing
that binds them in a common belief and thus they can self identify
with the society as a whole.

When a society loses that binding norm and it's sense of identity
as one whole unit, then chaos ensues.
With social disorder comes the fall of the institutions that once
helped maintain that societal identity as well.

When a sufficient number of the persons within that society no
longer accept the norms and thus no longer identify as being
"part" of that society, it fractures, then it collapses.

This isn't about what "you" want, or what "I" want.
This is simply a historical fact.

Some great civilizations are conquered from without,
most however collapse from within for the reason I listed.

No civilization can withstand the multiple stresses of internal
societal collapse, depleted resources, and multiple external
enemies.

It has never been done.

This isn't about my "politics", this is about national survival
as a single entity on the world stage.
That's just a bunch of vague generalities thrown together. Sorry, but our society isn't going to collapse because of gay marriage or the divorce rate or whatever other "moral norms" you think are being violated.

[ValricoKate]

Your repeating the phrase "historical truths" doesn't add any gravitas to the original post; all I see is a vague denunciation of the manner in which society has changed from what you see as an idealized past. The only historical truth I can read in it is the one that every generation thinks that theirs is the last great one, and that the morals of today's youth are in a sad state of decay.

According to the "popular press" there is nothing great about my generation. Those who hold to the truths that I do are in the minority ...we are told that constantly.
That would lead to the realization that most today must be simpering, selfish and lazy.
If that is the case than no, my generation is not the last great one ...it has past already.

I put my trust in those who also realize that and look back toward the ideals of the past. I dont' know how many we are. But I trust those more than the new ideologues of today.

[Greyclouds]

Aggression (assertion) is essential to survival. How that aggresive force is applied does indeed vary according to the degree of development/civilization.

Very true, it's a logical truth that beneficial alleles that increase aggression will dominate other alleles that are better suited for less-aggressive behavior.

Sadly, civilization selects for alleles that are "less-aggressive" in nature. I mean, it seems appalling to us that someone would attack another person. Outside of civilization, it is less distasteful.


Rises and falls are the natural order. I'm not so sure that what we perceive as dead and gone forever is not simply "underground" waiting for spring :)

This is true as well.

I did not mean to imply that civilization will "die-out" never to be revived. In fact, so long as our collective mental capacity remains relatively stable, civilization will continue to exist as a concept. However, it is doomed to decay upon each rebirth because of human emotional fluxes.

Having said that, emotion is a true "double-edged sword" insofar as it promotes empathy and rage simultaneously. It flings human behavior to two separate extremes, which has resulted in our continued survival to this point of time.

[kaydahl]

According to the "popular press" there is nothing great about my generation. Those who hold to the truths that I do are in the minority ...we are told that constantly.
That would lead to the realization that most today must be simpering, selfish and lazy.
If that be the case than no, my generation is not the last great one ...it has past already.

I put my trust in those who also realize that and look back toward the ideals of the past. I dont' know how many we are. But I trust those more than the new ideologues of today.

Do you remember "make new friends, but keep the old, one is silver and the other gold"?

[Wino]

I've taken some time today and tonight to do some reading of some of the
better and more thoughtful threads on some various issues.

Everything from what to do about Iran to why there is such a deep
divide between societal belief structures in this nation.

Doing so, I came to a rather odd conclusion.
You may feel free to disagree if you choose, this is my own
conclusion based upon what I know of history and the patterns
of the rise and fall of civilizations.

The current civilization that we live in, the society that forms it,
here in the U.S., is falling apart.

We are actual witnesses to the death of a civilization.
It is happening around us as we go through our daily lives.
So it is something of a rare moment in history when a society
can recognize this, at least some members of it anyway,
and sort of "make notes" if you will.

The moral fabric of this society has now been almost completely
shredded to the point where there is no actual accepted moral norms
to go by. There are those who still adhere to the old standards,
and there are those that would impose their own ideas of new,
and better to their mind, replacement standards, and then there are
those who actually have no desire for any standards at all.

The founding basic legal structure of our form of government has for
all intents and purposes been decreed invalid, null, void, and of nothing
but perhaps some vague historical value. If of any value at all.
"The Constitution was written too long ago and things have changed too much
for it to work any more."
Seems to be the standard that is applied by our rulers, and the courts.
So we no longer have restrictions on the powers of our rulers or the powers
that they may grant unto themselves in the future.

Respect of one another's personal beliefs is no longer fashionable either.

Our treasury is depleted and even under the most extraordinary of circumstances
we could not hope for the debt to be totally paid for in the next 3 generations.
We have squandered our nation's wealth and it's capacity to generate new
wealth on the altar of personal greed, selfishness, and short sightedness with
no care for the future of the nation as a whole, all for the sole purpose of instant
self-gratification.

We are indeed in "interesting times" as they say.

We cannot come to any real decision about how to handle any of the true
underlying problems because we have ceased to be one single common
society. We have fractured into a balkanized state of many societies under
one roof, each convinced that it must take from the others in order to
"get it's own slice" of the pie without regard for or respect for any other set
of beliefs or the founding principles that allowed this nation to rise in the
first place.

The war with terrorism:
Some wish to actually fight it and fight it to win.
Others wish to not fight it all.
Still others see the cost to an empty treasury and desire to not
take on a battle that we cannot afford.
None give thought to the simple fact that if the nation dies,
the amount of wealth in the treasury matters not.

Social conflicts:
Gays vs straights, atheist vs religious, etc.
None of these are willing to simply coexist with the others and leave
any form of status quo that would allow societal balance.

No society that is at war both within and with multiple fronts of
enemies without can survive. History has proven this time and again.
Now it is our turn to fold into the pages of history.

Everything I've ever learned in my lifetime tells me that we are indeed
having the rare opportunity to watch the death of a society, a civilization,
and a form of government all at the same time.

So even if you don't believe what I've written, make some notes from
time to time about how things are today. How you live, what you do,
where you like to go and how you like to get there.
Some of the more remarkable things that you see that we all take
for granted and simply don't notice anymore.

I'm certain that future generations will find the information useful and
probably in some ways entertaining.
I agree, but I believe that our society will die after this generation. The single most important factor for our demise in my opinion, despite our different viewpoints, is separation by language. Without a unifying language, we cannot communicate, the people that speak a certain language find other people that speak that language and soon you have a community that predominately speaks that language and able to survive without communicating with other communities. This separation, I believe, may cause wars, like in the Balkans and other countries. In the future, we may be seeing wars between regions that speak differently and with different needs.

Not! This could never happen here in the melting pot! :think:

[Radical Leftist]

According to the "popular press" there is nothing great about my generation. Those who hold to the truths that I do are in the minority ...we are told that constantly.
That would lead to the realization that most today must be simpering, selfish and lazy.
If that is the case than no, my generation is not the last great one ...it has past already.

I put my trust in those who also realize that and look back toward the ideals of the past. I dont' know how many we are. But I trust those more than the new ideologues of today.
Do you realize that every generation in the history of humanity has had an element that feels that exact same way? It's called nostalgia, and you're a little too wrapped up in it.

[ValricoKate]

Do you remember "make new friends, but keep the old, one is silver and the other gold"?

Of course.
But the New ideals today aren't friendly to my belief system, to continue to placate them in order to make friends is stupid. Look what they do to the likes of J. McCain for reference.

These "new friends" are flippin sociopaths ...they use those who want to get along to further their adgenda.

[Radical Leftist]

I agree, but I believe that our society will die after this generation. The single most important factor for our demise in my opinion, despite our different viewpoints, is separation by language. Without a unifying language, we cannot communicate, the people that speak a certain language find other people that speak that language and soon you have a community that predominately speaks that language and able to survive without communicating with other communities. This separation, I believe, may cause wars, like in the Balkans and other countries. In the future, we may be seeing wars between regions that speak differently and with different needs.

Not! This could never happen here in the melting pot! :think:
That's laughable. There has never been a single "unifying" language in the history of our country. Different languages have been spoken in most areas since the founding.

[ValricoKate]

Do you realize that every generation in the history of humanity has had an element that feels that exact same way? It's called nostalgia, and you're a little too wrapped up in it.

Am I?

[betwixt]

I will remember:
At one point in my life I became more fiscally aware.
At one point in my life I became more politically aware.
I became more socially aware.
I became more in tuned with my community and how it impacts me and my children.

How to affect these and other issues?
I'm still learning that.

[kaydahl]

Thanks for the mini science lesson...am not so well-versed in alleles :)

No, I didn't take it as civilization as a whole dying out. Was thinking about various elements which rise and fall, or "nations".

Very interesting, this last statement of yours: "It flings human behavior to two separate extremes, which has resulted in our continued survival to this point of time." Maximum polarity at times of change. Kind of like 32 degrees ice/water. Your implication that it is necessary or a positive catalyst that catches my attention.


Very true, it's a logical truth that beneficial alleles that increase aggression will dominate other alleles that are better suited for less-aggressive behavior.

Sadly, civilization selects for alleles that are "less-aggressive" in nature. I mean, it seems appalling to us that someone would attack another person. Outside of civilization, it is less distasteful.



This is true as well.

I did not mean to imply that civilization will "die-out" never to be revived. In fact, so long as our collective mental capacity remains relatively stable, civilization will continue to exist as a concept. However, it is doomed to decay upon each rebirth because of human emotional fluxes.

Having said that, emotion is a true "double-edged sword" insofar as it promotes empathy and rage simultaneously. It flings human behavior to two separate extremes, which has resulted in our continued survival to this point of time.

[Czhorat]

Did you ever study history ? Rise and fall of civilizations ? That sort of thing ?

Every civilization that came along and succeeded had a common moral norm.
As long as they kept that, they prospered.
A societal norm is required for the sake of the identity of the society and the
culture. It is a requirement for the survival of the society and civilization.

I can deal without the condescension, especially from one talking in such vague terms. Which societies do you believe collapsed due to a lack of a "common moral norm"? In what way do you think those in America today no longer feel like part of a single nation?

[kaydahl]

Of course.
But the New ideals today aren't friendly to my belief system, to continue to placate them in order to make friends is stupid. Look what they do to the likes of J. McCain for reference.

These "new friends" are flippin sociopaths ...they use those who want to get along to further their adgenda.

I don't like alot of what I see, either. And will admit that there are some things I am highly unlikely to reconcile with. OTOH, there are changes which I do embrace and some others that I have slowly come to appreciate.

So....do you support the Constitutional concept of diversity between various states or are you more for a unified central government? Sometimes I find it hard to tell.

[ValricoKate]

I don't like alot of what I see, either. And will admit that there are some things I am highly unlikely to reconcile with. OTOH, there are changes which I do embrace and some others that I have slowly come to appreciate.

So....do you support the Constitutional concept of diversity between various states or are you more for a unified central government? Sometimes I find it hard to tell.

It depends on the issue.

I believe in both, but not to the extreme in either case.
There is a need for a Federal Government in some instances, but I think laws should be made and enforced as close to the people that they effect as possible.

[nunyadb]

That's just a bunch of vague generalities thrown together. Sorry, but our society isn't going to collapse because of gay marriage or the divorce rate or whatever other "moral norms" you think are being violated.

Again, you are missing the point.
Why do you think the Founders set the Constitution up the way they did ?
The explicitly denied the Fed the power to force any changes in society onto
the several states. They did this knowing full well that each state had it's own
separate mini-culture. The "norms" from one would slowly bleed over into
another and vice versa, but there could be no "downwardly imposed" culture
shock which could have the effect of shattering the fragile union.

Each state's population can decide what it's particular "norms" are within the
greater society because the "norms" aren't THAT different.

You yourself may have noticed that some states now embrace gay marriage
as legal, not yet a social "norm", but allowed and protected.
Over time ( as I stated earlier, a long time ) changes such as this spread
throughout the greater society as a whole. This time allows for the "balance"
of societal norms versus change to be handled and accepted without disruption
of the entire society and potential chaos.

I personally don't care about the whole gay/lesbian , marriage/civil union, thing
one way or the other. I don't have a dog in that fight.

What I do recognize, probably because I don't have a dog in that fight, is the
damage that the "forcing" is doing to the structural fabric of our society as a
whole.

Let your prejudices lead you if you wish.
I have none.

Unlike you, I grew up a very long time ago.
I've killed, spilled blood, fought, bled, and had my friends die in my arms
for this nation. I have what some would consider a "vested interest"
in it's final disposition.

I don't have the time or self indulgence to allow personal prejudices
sway my judgment. Instead I use facts, historical references to the
situation, and logical extrapolation to reach reasonably valid conclusions.

You don't have to like them, or even accept them.
But to think that my "concern" over your petty sex life worries are the
driving force behind my thoughts is rather egocentric to say the least.

[kaydahl]

It depends on the issue.

I believe in both, but not to the extreme in either case.
There is a need for a Federal Government in some instances, but I think laws should be made and enforced as close to the people that they effect as possible.

I was more asking along the lines of your opinion re the levels of diversity between states.
I'm with you re the idea of balance. Outside of that...do you think we are a stronger nation assuming our federal government is Constitutionally limited in power and the result is some states that are far right and some that are far left?

[Radical Leftist]

Again, you are missing the point.
Why do you think the Founders set the Constitution up the way they did ?
The explicitly denied the Fed the power to force any changes in society onto
the several states. They did this knowing full well that each state had it's own
separate mini-culture. The "norms" from one would slowly bleed over into
another and vice versa, but there could be no "downwardly imposed" culture
shock which could have the effect of shattering the fragile union.

Each state's population can decide what it's particular "norms" are within the
greater society because the "norms" aren't THAT different.

You yourself may have noticed that some states now embrace gay marriage
as legal, not yet a social "norm", but allowed and protected.
Over time ( as I stated earlier, a long time ) changes such as this spread
throughout the greater society as a whole. This time allows for the "balance"
of societal norms versus change to be handled and accepted without disruption
of the entire society and potential chaos.

I personally don't care about the whole gay/lesbian , marriage/civil union, thing
one way or the other. I don't have a dog in that fight.

What I do recognize, probably because I don't have a dog in that fight, is the
damage that the "forcing" is doing to the structural fabric of our society as a
whole.

Let your prejudices lead you if you wish.
I have none.

Unlike you, I grew up a very long time ago.
I've killed, spilled blood, fought, bled, and had my friends die in my arms
for this nation. I have what some would consider a "vested interest"
in it's final disposition.

I don't have the time or self indulgence to allow personal prejudices
sway my judgment. Instead I use facts, historical references to the
situation, and logical extrapolation to reach reasonably valid conclusions.

You don't have to like them, or even accept them.
But to think that my "concern" over your petty sex life worries are the
driving force behind my thoughts is rather egocentric to say the least.
Dude, if you want to be taken seriously stop being so vague. What exactly do you feel a "breakdown" in society because of a lack of "moral norms" actually looks like, in real terms? What are you afraid is going to happen? I'm talking specific, real problems that will arise out of it, not this vague stuff that sounds like it's coming from a crazy Time Square preacher on a megaphone.

[Czhorat]

Dude, if you want to be taken seriously stop being so vague. What exactly do you feel a "breakdown" in society because of a lack of "moral norms" actually looks like, in real terms? What are you afraid is going to happen? I'm talking specific, real problems that will arise out of it, not this vague stuff that sounds like it's coming from a crazy Time Square preacher on a megaphone.

What amazes me the most about this thread is how many posts go on for a dozen or so lines without saying anythign specific. I asked which civilizations fell because of a "lack of consistant societal norms" and never got one answer.

I have no idea what the OP is really expecting here.

[ValricoKate]

I was more asking along the lines of your opinion re the levels of diversity between states.
I'm with you re the idea of balance. Outside of that...do you think we are a stronger nation assuming our federal government is Constitutionally limited in power and the result is some states that are far right and some that are far left?

I don't know about stronger ...it would depend on how you define it.
I think it is reasonable to allow that break down to occur. I don't know how long the extreme left and right would last I assume it would moderate as time went on, but it should be allowed if that's what the people in that state want so long as no true rights are abrogated.

[Radical Leftist]

What amazes me the most about this thread is how many posts go on for a dozen or so lines without saying anythign specific. I asked which civilizations fell because of a "lack of consistant societal norms" and never got one answer.

I have no idea what the OP is really expecting here.
He's probably expecting a bunch of dittoheads are going to come on here and tell him how spot-on his post was.

[Greyclouds]

Thanks for the mini science lesson...am not so well-versed in alleles :)

You're welcome. It turns out that there is an allele that causes a decrease in aggression with respect to the norm.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v29/n8/full/1300455a.html

Basically, you have a higher expression of monoamine oxidase, and you'll be less aggressive.


No, I didn't take it as civilization as a whole dying out. Was thinking about various elements which rise and fall, or "nations".

Very interesting, this last statement of yours: "It flings human behavior to two separate extremes, which has resulted in our continued survival to this point of time." Maximum polarity at times of change. Kind of like 32 degrees ice/water. Your implication that it is necessary or a positive catalyst that catches my attention.

I believe that the only logical course of action for a relatively "independent" network of consciousnesses such as ourselves is the complete abdication of thought for other people.

Basically, without continued need for other people, our logical course of action is to elevate ourselves as we are the only self-demonstrable consciousness that exists. So, if you want something and it will logically benefit your life, your appropriate course of action is to take it.

The good thing about emotions is their ability to help us empathize with the victims. We produce the hormone oxytocin which greatly influences our demeanor towards each other. Without emotions (as produced by hormones) we would not exist as a civilization.

Now, I hope you don't believe that I'm advocating the logical approach here! I'm an emotional being like every other person, and that is why I believe that emotions have resulted in the proliferation of the human race, as opposed to the limitation of humanity due to logical selfishness.

[ConservativeSnoopy]

Of course.
But the New ideals today aren't friendly to my belief system, to continue to placate them in order to make friends is stupid. Look what they do to the likes of J. McCain for reference.

These "new friends" are flippin sociopaths ...they use those who want to get along to further their adgenda.

+1 :clap:

Also, Nunyadb,
I appreciate your post. I believe simple civility is breaking down. Whether you believe total collapse, minor collapse or whatever, it's pretty apparent there is a lot of anger among Americans. We are not living in "normal" times right now. At least I am not, in my city and neighborhood.

[nunyadb]

+1 :clap:

Also, Nunyadb,
I appreciate your post. I believe simple civility is breaking down. Whether you believe total collapse, minor collapse or whatever, it's pretty apparent there is a lot of anger among Americans. We are not living in "normal" times right now. At least I am not, in my city and neighborhood.

Thanks Snoopy, if my post succeeded in generating actual thoughtful discussion,
then it achieved it's purpose.

[kaydahl]

I don't know about stronger ...it would depend on how you define it.
I think it is reasonable to allow that break down to occur. I don't know how long the extreme left and right would last I assume it would moderate as time went on, but it should be allowed if that's what the people in that state want so long as no true rights are abrogated.

Thanks. We're on the same page. I agree that if we were to impose a sudden drop in federal power, we might see some extremist philosophies emerge in individual states. But over time, I also agree that a reasonable norm would most likely emerge. It's really the beauty of the Constitutional design.

[kaydahl]

Thanks. I'll check the link.

A philosophical puzzle for me is whether there is a clear hierarchy on the continuum....physicality being lower than spirituality (not denying interdependence). But mental/emotional.....do they balance each other out or otherwise complementary somewhere between versus one being a higher level of development? I lean toward complementary and what you're saying I think supports that.

You're welcome. It turns out that there is an allele that causes a decrease in aggression with respect to the norm.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v29/n8/full/1300455a.html

Basically, you have a higher expression of monoamine oxidase, and you'll be less aggressive.



I believe that the only logical course of action for a relatively "independent" network of consciousnesses such as ourselves is the complete abdication of thought for other people.

Basically, without continued need for other people, our logical course of action is to elevate ourselves as we are the only self-demonstrable consciousness that exists. So, if you want something and it will logically benefit your life, your appropriate course of action is to take it.

The good thing about emotions is their ability to help us empathize with the victims. We produce the hormone oxytocin which greatly influences our demeanor towards each other. Without emotions (as produced by hormones) we would not exist as a civilization.

Now, I hope you don't believe that I'm advocating the logical approach here! I'm an emotional being like every other person, and that is why I believe that emotions have resulted in the proliferation of the human race, as opposed to the limitation of humanity due to logical selfishness.

[ddye]

Funny, when my side loses an election, I don't rely on the, "Society is coming apart" defense.

I would offer that America will survive somehow, even if the far right isn't running it. I know that sounds crazy to some here, but I believe it.

Doug

[Mithrastan]

It's January 1993, halftime of the AFL playoff game between the Buffalo Bills and the Houston Oilers. Not looking good for the Bills who are down 28-3. Do you think Marv Levy stood in front of his players and said, look guys, the writing is on the wall...?

Our attitudes shape our destiny. People who take stock of challenges facing us as a nation and decide that we might as well throw in the towel are simply not team players IMO. They have actively chosen defeat over victory.

Personally I want no part of that attitude. I'm staying on the field against all odds.

I'm completely with you, although I don't believe it is that dire.

[kaydahl]

I'm completely with you, although I don't believe it is that dire.

I don't either. Mainly trying to encourage a positive attitude. But I'm not a "true" conservative and I do see how they likely feel more discouraged right now than those of us that float more in the middle.

[croupier101]

i remember these same predictions when the conservatives lost to clinton too. i know cons think losing elections is the end of the world every time, but sheesh, it is getting ridiculous.

[Maelstrom]

Choice #3: A synthesis of the best from both sides and a forward movement from that point.

Are you married? People who are married are usually pretty familiar with this option :)

The tyranny being observed is mutually exclusive to the limited government nunyadb and I support.

[Maelstrom]

i remember these same predictions when the conservatives lost to clinton too. i know cons think losing elections is the end of the world every time, but sheesh, it is getting ridiculous.

Do you?

I don't.

[croupier101]

Do you?

I don't.

yep, i do. conservatives always think progress is dire. there were old men in the 1950s I am sure who saw rock n roll and other changes in family values as the beginning of the end of society too. there are always people who think the past was a better time, and the future looks bleak.

conservatives in every decade are always claiming civilization is at its end, and it usually comes after they lose an election.

[kaydahl]

The tyranny being observed is mutually exclusive to the limited government nunyadb and I support.

I'm a supporter of limited federal government as well. I don't understand your point here.

[Maelstrom]

Your repeating the phrase "historical truths" doesn't add any gravitas to the original post; all I see is a vague denunciation of the manner in which society has changed from what you see as an idealized past. The only historical truth I can read in it is the one that every generation thinks that theirs is the last great one, and that the morals of today's youth are in a sad state of decay.

Then you are blind.

Rasputin, is that you?

[Mithrastan]

If we really want to call out some specific historical event that could mark the point of inflection in the decline of our civilization, we should look at the point where Prozac was approved and marketed for public consumption.

The Kids in the Hall gave this very subject excellent treatment in their film Brain Candy.

[kaydahl]

yep, i do. conservatives always think progress is dire. there were old men in the 1950s I am sure who saw rock n roll and other changes in family values as the beginning of the end of society too. there are always people who think the past was a better time, and the future looks bleak.

conservatives in every decade are always claiming civilization is at its end, and it usually comes after they lose an election.

One can indeed argue that a primary distinction between a conservative and a liberal is their approach to change. The tug between these opposing viewpoints should theoretically move us forward at a reasonable pace. IMO both should be respected.

[Maelstrom]

I agree, but I believe that our society will die after this generation. The single most important factor for our demise in my opinion, despite our different viewpoints, is separation by language. Without a unifying language, we cannot communicate, the people that speak a certain language find other people that speak that language and soon you have a community that predominately speaks that language and able to survive without communicating with other communities. This separation, I believe, may cause wars, like in the Balkans and other countries. In the future, we may be seeing wars between regions that speak differently and with different needs.

Not! This could never happen here in the melting pot! :think:

That has happened already.

Sure, there is the obvious example of Spanish-only sections of the United States of America, but also the English dialect itself.

We speak of limited government...it means something else entirely to liberals.
We speak of freedom...liberals somehow believe that freedom from personal responsibility and freedom from religion or freedom from offensive materials is somehow covered under that umbrella.
We speak of morals...liberals ask "Who's morals"? As though there were some moral debate about the various forms of sexual molestation, deviancies, or even murder.

[croupier101]

One can indeed argue that a primary distinction between a conservative and a liberal is their approach to change. The tug between these opposing viewpoints should theoretically move us forward at a reasonable pace. IMO both should be respected.

I don't disagree, but I am still going to giggle at the constant "predictions" of Armageddon from the right though.

[Mithrastan]

Regarding the OP:

I don't know why anyone would want to advertise their sense if impending obsolescence.
If you can't change the situation, the situation will eventually change you, and not in the way that you think or that some radical leftist hopes.

Also, contrary to the screeds of didactic, mercenary "historians", history does not "repeat iteslf", & there is no monolithic historical condition for the success or failure of civilizations.

[IndyBec]

All successful civilizations die. They implode from their own success.
For the most part, success breeds apathy and apathy reverses the thrust of the civilization.
We are dead men walking exactly like every civilization that preceded us.


Did you know that Switzerland celebrated it's 700th anniversary as a nation in 1991? My husband sang in an international choir at one of the celebrations.

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. ~Dylan Thomas

We don't have to assume end of civilization, even if there is a huge economic crash coming.

I recently watched the movie Titanic again and thought about the lifeboats and the real disaster. The worse part about it, IMO, is that even with the crash itself and lack of lifeboats, better response at the time could have feasibly saved most if not all of the people. They could have filled the boats to capacity. The engineers who knew there were not enough lifeboats could have taken action, and thrown overboard as much wood as they could have pulled off the ship, unhinging enough doors and wood to float on and stay out of the frigid waters until the help came. All those people could have worked together and saved everyone IF enough few people had risen up with some leadership.

How much happens because the smart people of action assume that all that can be done is being done, or believe that they cannot make a difference on their own?

As a mother of 5 young children, I have to balance my community action with caring for my family. I try to contribute in my own ways and the manner of how I do evolves over the years, but I am hoping that enough of us do what they can and that our efforts will come together to build a more informed and empowered public.

[Maelstrom]

Funny, when my side loses an election, I don't rely on the, "Society is coming apart" defense.

I would offer that America will survive somehow, even if the far right isn't running it. I know that sounds crazy to some here, but I believe it.

Doug

No, when your side loses an election, they promise to rip our society apart.

[croupier101]

No, when your side loses an election, they promise to rip our society apart.

Texas seceded yet?

[Gengar]

We need aliens to visit us.

[Gengar]

Texas seceded yet?

Any jobs created yet?

[croupier101]

Any jobs created yet?

Not yet, just think unemployment might go up against next month and conservatives can have another party.

[kaydahl]

I don't disagree, but I am still going to giggle at the constant "predictions" of Armageddon from the right though.

Okay!

[agent_86]

Not yet, just think unemployment might go up against next month and conservatives can have another party.

Yes!!! The Barrack Hussein Obama mmm mmm mm! is a big failure party.

Celebrating how right some of us were.

Thank me!

[msny]

If this is to be averted, at all, providing that it still can be, which I doubt,
then the one thing we need, the ONLY thing we need is that "one thing"
to bind us together. In the case of Americans, that has never been the
nation of origin for our ancestors, it has never been our religions if any,
it HAS BEEN the firm and abiding knowledge of the actual text of the founding
document of our government. Not what word parsers "say" that it states,
but the actual knowing what it states for ourselves.

If every one of us would simply take the time to read it, learn it by heart,
and place the plain meaning of the actual words written there to the front
of our minds, then the CONSTITUTION could be that "one thing".

However, from what I've seen, there are too many in this nation already
that receive gifts and favors for their willingness to deny "parts and pieces"
of it and thus weaken the whole of it.

If this nation is to survive, it must first reaffirm the identity of it's people.
That national identity is based upon the Constitution, The Bill of Rights,
and the Declaration of Independence.

Without that single binding element, we're finished.

Depends how you see the cup.
Half full or half empty.

I choose to see it half full, and will foster that
and reject this present day socialism within
the bounds of constitutional law. I dont subscribe to
the "let it all fail" crowd.

When have ALL the people ever affirmed its national
identity?

Those occassions are rare indeed. The majority has
always ruled, deosnt make it right...but it is right.

[wayoverthehill]

Excellent thread Nunyadb. You have eloquently written what I been feeling for quite a while. (Several years).

I had even told my grandson a few weeks ago (while we rode down to DC on the 12th) that we were at a crossroads in our history.

All one has to do is watch TV and compare to what we had seen back in the 50's. There was always a sense of decorum and politeness.

Watching TV today (even the commercials) is an assault on the senses. I don't want 'laws' to restrain it, I just want the people to rise up and say 'ugh, enough' and quit watching and demand better.

I believe strongly in God, but I don't want religion mixed with lawmaking. BUT, I believe there should be a strong root of morality, along with the true spirit of the Constitution, in anyone charged with lawmaking.

What I'm hoping for is this:

That even though we are about 1 foot from the precipice, things are going to get much much worse economically, so that even those who are apathetic today, cannot help but wake up and take notice.

Hopefully they will look around and start asking questions, at which time we who have seen this coming will educate them. We may then become united and engaged.

Our generation (baby boomers) have an important role. Mainly for being old enough to remember our history, educate and inspire, yet still young enough to 'fight'.

If we can't stop the slide over the edge, then we will indeed, be another page in history. Unfortunately, the way it will be written will be in no way accurate as to what has really happened.

It will have to be "United We Stand"........once again.I could not agree more with you. You have eloquently stated the case.

I'm a pre-boomer by several years and fast losing the "young enough to fight" designation. But I can see very clearly that we are on a downward slide and you know that anything going downhill accelerates the farther down it goes.

I often feel that I don't belong in this world any more. I don't understand the lack of morals, values, and contempt for tradition displayed by many younger people. A lack of manners. A lack of how to dress properly. A lack of how to conduct oneself in public. A lack of basic English speech and proper grammar. I could go on but I know you know what I'm talking about.

[wayoverthehill]

The economy has been worse, yes.
The debt level has never been higher though.
Also we still had means of producing for ourselves.

When you add the three together, it's bad, really bad.
Add the other factors in, well............you get the picture.

We either get it together, now, and fix it, or we don't get another chance.
That's my read on this.Absolutely right. It is a perfect storm.

And I don't think we get another chance. Starting over may be easier.

[wayoverthehill]

That's just a bunch of vague generalities thrown together. Sorry, but our society isn't going to collapse because of gay marriage or the divorce rate or whatever other "moral norms" you think are being violated.I can see that the OP went right over your head. It has nothing to do with gay marriage or the divorce rate. Think about it some more.

[croupier101]

I could not agree more with you. You have eloquently stated the case.

I'm a pre-boomer by several years and fast losing the "young enough to fight" designation. But I can see very clearly that we are on a downward slide and you know that anything going downhill accelerates the farther down it goes.

I often feel that I don't belong in this world any more. I don't understand the lack of morals, values, and contempt for tradition displayed by many younger people. A lack of manners. A lack of how to dress properly. A lack of how to conduct oneself in public. A lack of basic English speech and proper grammar. I could go on but I know you know what I'm talking about.

has the music got to loud and are the kids constantly on your lawn?

[AZslim]

I've taken some time today and tonight to do some reading of some of the
better and more thoughtful threads on some various issues.

Everything from what to do about Iran to why there is such a deep
divide between societal belief structures in this nation.

Doing so, I came to a rather odd conclusion.
You may feel free to disagree if you choose, this is my own
conclusion based upon what I know of history and the patterns
of the rise and fall of civilizations.

The current civilization that we live in, the society that forms it,
here in the U.S., is falling apart.

We are actual witnesses to the death of a civilization.
It is happening around us as we go through our daily lives.
So it is something of a rare moment in history when a society
can recognize this, at least some members of it anyway,
and sort of "make notes" if you will.

The moral fabric of this society has now been almost completely
shredded to the point where there is no actual accepted moral norms
to go by. There are those who still adhere to the old standards,
and there are those that would impose their own ideas of new,
and better to their mind, replacement standards, and then there are
those who actually have no desire for any standards at all.

The founding basic legal structure of our form of government has for
all intents and purposes been decreed invalid, null, void, and of nothing
but perhaps some vague historical value. If of any value at all.
"The Constitution was written too long ago and things have changed too much
for it to work any more."
Seems to be the standard that is applied by our rulers, and the courts.
So we no longer have restrictions on the powers of our rulers or the powers
that they may grant unto themselves in the future.

Respect of one another's personal beliefs is no longer fashionable either.

Our treasury is depleted and even under the most extraordinary of circumstances
we could not hope for the debt to be totally paid for in the next 3 generations.
We have squandered our nation's wealth and it's capacity to generate new
wealth on the altar of personal greed, selfishness, and short sightedness with
no care for the future of the nation as a whole, all for the sole purpose of instant
self-gratification.

We are indeed in "interesting times" as they say.

We cannot come to any real decision about how to handle any of the true
underlying problems because we have ceased to be one single common
society. We have fractured into a balkanized state of many societies under
one roof, each convinced that it must take from the others in order to
"get it's own slice" of the pie without regard for or respect for any other set
of beliefs or the founding principles that allowed this nation to rise in the
first place.

The war with terrorism:
Some wish to actually fight it and fight it to win.
Others wish to not fight it all.
Still others see the cost to an empty treasury and desire to not
take on a battle that we cannot afford.
None give thought to the simple fact that if the nation dies,
the amount of wealth in the treasury matters not.

Social conflicts:
Gays vs straights, atheist vs religious, etc.
None of these are willing to simply coexist with the others and leave
any form of status quo that would allow societal balance.

No society that is at war both within and with multiple fronts of
enemies without can survive. History has proven this time and again.
Now it is our turn to fold into the pages of history.

Everything I've ever learned in my lifetime tells me that we are indeed
having the rare opportunity to watch the death of a society, a civilization,
and a form of government all at the same time.

So even if you don't believe what I've written, make some notes from
time to time about how things are today. How you live, what you do,
where you like to go and how you like to get there.
Some of the more remarkable things that you see that we all take
for granted and simply don't notice anymore.

I'm certain that future generations will find the information useful and
probably in some ways entertaining.

Don't worry, the next President will most likely be a Republican and you will feel much better.

[wayoverthehill]

Funny, when my side loses an election, I don't rely on the, "Society is coming apart" defense.

I would offer that America will survive somehow, even if the far right isn't running it. I know that sounds crazy to some here, but I believe it.

DougAnother one who totally misses the point. It has nothing to do with losing an election or the "far right". In fact, Nunya specifically says he is not posting with a political agenda in mind.

I don't know what has happened to you but you've really changed, Doug.

[croupier101]

Another one who totally misses the point. It has nothing to do with losing an election or the "far right". In fact, Nunya specifically says he is not posting with a political agenda in mind.

I don't know what has happened to you but you've really changed, Doug.

cons always claim it isn't political when they predict Armageddon, it just coincidentally always occurs right after they get crushed in elections. Doug hasn't changed, the President has changed, and that is why many conservatives like yourself switch into this whoa is me the world is ending, civilization is dying armageddon crap.

[wayoverthehill]

has the music got to loud and are the kids constantly on your lawn?No but the libs are getting increasingly annoying and childish.

[wayoverthehill]

cons always claim it isn't political when they predict Armageddon, it just coincidentally always occurs right after they get crushed in elections. Doug hasn't changed, the President has changed, and that is why many conservatives like yourself switch into this whoa is me the world is ending, civilization is dying armageddon crap.I haven't said the world is ending or that civilization of dying so just stop it.

If you want to address me (and I'd be perfectly happy if you never did again) stick to asking about what I actually said, K?

(and the phrase is "woe is me", not "whoa". Whoa is what you say to a horse)