Health Insurance Debate just a Red Herring?

[osamayomama]

So I was thinking about this tonite... this health care thing can appear complicated at times to me, so i tried to simplfy it in my mind....

The analogy i came up with was you have this country, where loaves of bread cost $50, while in other countries they cost $3. And some of the people in this country are starving. So instead of trying to lower the inflated price of bread, you mandate that people pay a company every month to help them afford these gouged prices.

Does the insurance thing really matter? At the end of the day, antibiotics are still gonna cost $150 here and $20 in canada or mexico. Isnt the problem really the ridiculous cost of health care in this country? Putting everyone on a government run system wouldnt help either. The prices would still be exorbanet, but the government would just pay everyones medical bills, they dont sift thru and try to save money by denying valid claims like the insurance companies.

I know theres a million reasons im totally full of sh*t, lay it on me.

[bubalu]

May be the idea is that the government won't allow price gouging by the drug companies, or the health industry, whatever. It doesn't matter, there is not going to be any health care reform or any significant change - the health industry won't let it happen.

[Mishiny]

So I was thinking about this tonite... this health care thing can appear complicated at times to me, so i tried to simplfy it in my mind....

The analogy i came up with was you have this country, where loaves of bread cost $50, while in other countries they cost $3. And some of the people in this country are starving. So instead of trying to lower the inflated price of bread, you mandate that people pay a company every month to help them afford these gouged prices.

Does the insurance thing really matter? At the end of the day, antibiotics are still gonna cost $150 here and $20 in canada or mexico. Isnt the problem really the ridiculous cost of health care in this country? Putting everyone on a government run system wouldnt help either. The prices would still be exorbanet, but the government would just pay everyones medical bills, they dont sift thru and try to save money by denying valid claims like the insurance companies.

I know theres a million reasons im totally full of sh*t, lay it on me.
I don't think you're full of **** at all. I am all for capitalism but this is the very reason I have said before, I do believe there needs to be some small type of regulation or reform. Only once it has been worked out by both/all parties and doesn't destroy or change what the majority of Americans have already. I understand that capitalism drives the pharmaceutical companies to compete and improve medications that will help us. But I also believe the same capitalism holds them back too. I'm no expert in the field and never paid attention to the news as much as I do now, but I do remember hearing of medications that were never put on the market because they didn't have the same potential profit as another. I also understand there is big costs associated with testing and that it drives up the cost in the US but sometimes I wonder if those figures are inflated to justify their gouging prices?

Maybe I am just too skeptical or I've read too many fiction books but I think there is as much corruption in medicine as there is in politics. And I personally think as long as we fight against government run health care using capitalism to justify it, we are inflaming the war on capitalism. I do NOT think the government has any business taking on health care, but I also think limiting that capitalism just a bit for the sake of something that affects our health might not be such a bad thing. The problem of course would be how to limit the government control in implementing some small change? I don't have the answers? Just some questions and thinking out loud.

On a side note, my husband was at a New Jersey truck stop last night. The cashier was telling the customer in front of him why he voted democrat and how we must stop the evil corporations. This kid was about 23 and when my husband asked him why he felt corporations were evil, he went on a rampage about companies like Walmart making all the money and the world should be ran by mom and pop stores. My husband kept asking him questions. Yes he had worked for Walmart. And well yes, they did train him so he could get that exciting job at the truck stop :rolleyes: He couldn't answer any political question whatsoever that my husband had for him. Was "dumb as a rock" from what I was told. LOL.. He finally had the guy admitting he wanted free health care. Point is there is this huge movement out there of people determined to bring down Capitalism and this healthcare issue is their driving force. Without it most of them don't have any substance to their argument.

[JerryN]

How far 'upstate' are you? I grew up near Jamestown.
I think you are not that far off base.
Not much discussion concerns WHY medical care is expensive and what to do about it.

Most of what they want to re-form is the insurance business.
But even their proposals are counter to what they state as their goals.
Take pre-existing conditions for example.
Why would insurance companies be reluctant to accept someone with say, diabetes?
Because they KNOW it will cost more!
Result: EVERYONEs insurance cost will go UP, not down!

Now think back -- Waaaay back to 1965 when they implemented Medicare.
Why? Because by the time they reached retirement age, nearly everyone had some pre-existing ailment.
They couldn't get insurance - at any price!
So they created Medicare which accepted everyone regardless of pre-existing conditions.
Now no insurance co. offers regular insurance to retired people - only MediGap policies.

So what do you think their real goal is???!!!

[kaydahl]

No, you're not full of sh*t. Most conservative politicians are saying similar and directing proposals toward that goal. You just don't hear about them because the Dems keep saying there are no proposals.

So I was thinking about this tonite... this health care thing can appear complicated at times to me, so i tried to simplfy it in my mind....

The analogy i came up with was you have this country, where loaves of bread cost $50, while in other countries they cost $3. And some of the people in this country are starving. So instead of trying to lower the inflated price of bread, you mandate that people pay a company every month to help them afford these gouged prices.

Does the insurance thing really matter? At the end of the day, antibiotics are still gonna cost $150 here and $20 in canada or mexico. Isnt the problem really the ridiculous cost of health care in this country? Putting everyone on a government run system wouldnt help either. The prices would still be exorbanet, but the government would just pay everyones medical bills, they dont sift thru and try to save money by denying valid claims like the insurance companies.

I know theres a million reasons im totally full of sh*t, lay it on me.

[spinach]

## you all need to edit out your filter bypasses ##

if a mod sees them, you might get a stiff penalty

[spinach]

first off, government shouldn't even be involved with health care.

the reasons why HC in this country is expensive:

a. excessive regulation on drugmakers
b. excessive malpractice lawsuits
c. the level of care today uses machines- these cost big money to buy and to operate
d. there are leeches, so others who HAVE MONEY have to pay their costs
e. bureaucracy, as a result of the threat of lawsuits or regulation
f. it is a business, not a non profit system

IF you want cheaper health care then the best thing to do is relax regulation, put in place a tort system so that doctors or drugmakers who are sued, don't pay SQUAT if they win their case. And then disbar any attorney who is found to be bringing a 'frivolous suit' against any HC business.

The problem with making new drugs is that only about 1 in 10 make it to the market
this has the effect of starting off making the drugmaker have to recover 10x the normal cost just to break even. And then you have all the research that turns out to be "junk science" that has to be scrapped after potentially years of research. Once the drug hits the market, other companies analyze the contents, and make a generic version at a fraction of the cost. It is very hard to make money in the drug industry.

In general the best way to lower HC costs is to get government out of the way
and to put in place a tort system.

[brody]

Everyone points out that the proposed measures will not go into effect until 2013.

Does anyone have any idea how soon it will be before they start building their new beauracracy?

People point out how there is a chance that a change of power in congress and a new president could conceivebly stop all of it even if a bill is passed.

Has anyone considered how difficult it is to get rid of a beauracracy once it has been created though?

[WildRose]

So I was thinking about this tonite... this health care thing can appear complicated at times to me, so i tried to simplfy it in my mind....

The analogy i came up with was you have this country, where loaves of bread cost $50, while in other countries they cost $3. And some of the people in this country are starving. So instead of trying to lower the inflated price of bread, you mandate that people pay a company every month to help them afford these gouged prices.

Does the insurance thing really matter? At the end of the day, antibiotics are still gonna cost $150 here and $20 in canada or mexico. Isnt the problem really the ridiculous cost of health care in this country? Putting everyone on a government run system wouldnt help either. The prices would still be exorbanet, but the government would just pay everyones medical bills, they dont sift thru and try to save money by denying valid claims like the insurance companies.

I know theres a million reasons im totally full of sh*t, lay it on me.I think you're off a bit but certainly not "full of it".

The power grab is for real. This has been a serious goal of those on the left since the eightes, and a plank in their platform at various times for more than a generation.

But you are correct. Nothing the dem's are proposing so far will do anything to actually lower the cost of health care or prescriptions in this country in any way as there's no serious consideration, much less legislation that limits liabilities of either drug companies or Health Care providers.

If they get their wish, what we will end up with, is a system costing us much more, but with much of the cost hidden through taxes/subsidies, and lower quality and reduced access for all.

[WildRose]

Everyone points out that the proposed measures will not go into effect until 2013.

Does anyone have any idea how soon it will be before they start building their new beauracracy?

People point out how there is a chance that a change of power in congress and a new president could conceivebly stop all of it even if a bill is passed.

Has anyone considered how difficult it is to get rid of a beauracracy once it has been created though? Emphasis mine.

Only those of us with a clear vision of our history, and critical thinking skills.

[brody]

I'm betting that they already have their appointments selected and that any authority that is allocated to any new offices goes into effect immedeately upon passing a bill.

At that point they can start regulating and they will have done enought damage to have destroyed private health insurance by 2013 anyway.

So you see, the OP is correct about the Red Herring thing.

[Tex Mex]

If conservatives could draft a responsible healthcare reform bill that actually helped to make healthcare more affordable, accessible and bring all the Republicans on board, would Obama sign it?

[stiffy]

So I was thinking about this tonite... this health care thing can appear complicated at times to me, so i tried to simplfy it in my mind....

The analogy i came up with was you have this country, where loaves of bread cost $50, while in other countries they cost $3. And some of the people in this country are starving. So instead of trying to lower the inflated price of bread, you mandate that people pay a company every month to help them afford these gouged prices.

Does the insurance thing really matter? At the end of the day, antibiotics are still gonna cost $150 here and $20 in canada or mexico. Isnt the problem really the ridiculous cost of health care in this country? Putting everyone on a government run system wouldnt help either. The prices would still be exorbanet, but the government would just pay everyones medical bills, they dont sift thru and try to save money by denying valid claims like the insurance companies.

I know theres a million reasons im totally full of sh*t, lay it on me.

You're drawing attention to our patent system and other countries free-riding off of our innovation. Both are deeply flawed, to be sure.

I'm not too keen on intellectual property. The reason drugs cost so much is that government mandates a monopoly. This is supposed to allow drug companies to recoup their R&D costs. But there's a better way to do it.

One reason why care is more expensive is the long-delayed need for tort reform.

[Charlie A]

first off, government shouldn't even be involved with health care.

the reasons why HC in this country is expensive:

a. excessive regulation on drugmakers
b. excessive malpractice lawsuits
c. the level of care today uses machines- these cost big money to buy and to operate
d. there are leeches, so others who HAVE MONEY have to pay their costs
e. bureaucracy, as a result of the threat of lawsuits or regulation
f. it is a business, not a non profit system

IF you want cheaper health care then the best thing to do is relax regulation, put in place a tort system so that doctors or drugmakers who are sued, don't pay SQUAT if they win their case. And then disbar any attorney who is found to be bringing a 'frivolous suit' against any HC business.

The problem with making new drugs is that only about 1 in 10 make it to the market
this has the effect of starting off making the drugmaker have to recover 10x the normal cost just to break even. And then you have all the research that turns out to be "junk science" that has to be scrapped after potentially years of research. Once the drug hits the market, other companies analyze the contents, and make a generic version at a fraction of the cost. It is very hard to make money in the drug industry.

In general the best way to lower HC costs is to get government out of the way
and to put in place a tort system.

Also the sale of insurance across state lines would place downward pricing pressure on the providers, and from them to the suppliers. It would promote innovation and leaner organizations.

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/wm1164.cfm

[stiffy]

Also the sale of insurance across state lines would place downward pricing pressure on the providers, and from them to the suppliers. It would promote innovation and leaner organizations.

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/wm1164.cfm

Let's not forget that employers get tax breaks for providing insurance, as well as bulk rates because they're buying a lot of policies. (Individuals do not.) This forces most people onto the plan offered by their employer and removes the consumer's power to lower prices.

[msny]

So I was thinking about this tonite... this health care thing can appear complicated at times to me, so i tried to simplfy it in my mind....

The analogy i came up with was you have this country, where loaves of bread cost $50, while in other countries they cost $3. And some of the people in this country are starving. So instead of trying to lower the inflated price of bread, you mandate that people pay a company every month to help them afford these gouged prices.

Does the insurance thing really matter? At the end of the day, antibiotics are still gonna cost $150 here and $20 in canada or mexico. Isnt the problem really the ridiculous cost of health care in this country? Putting everyone on a government run system wouldnt help either. The prices would still be exorbanet, but the government would just pay everyones medical bills, they dont sift thru and try to save money by denying valid claims like the insurance companies.

I know theres a million reasons im totally full of sh*t, lay it on me.

Your correct.

The main issue has always been the cost.
Hospitals, doctors and premiums are to high and will keep climbing
way higher then the rate of inflation.

So why this elaborate obamacare plan to destroy a system
that already works? They want to take control of your health.

What is needed is reform that lowers cost, nothing more.

Here are just few things.
Allowing companies to compete across state lines.
Remove goverment regs, that hinder competition.
Eliminate pre-conditions.
Model cost savngs plans like those at Cleveland Clinc, where
you can buy a "package" of services for one low price.
Allow the private market to do what it does best.

These are but a few ideas, that the democrates have
ignored.

[Charlie A]

Let's not forget that employers get tax breaks for providing insurance, as well as bulk rates because they're buying a lot of policies. (Individuals do not.) This forces most people onto the plan offered by their employer and removes the consumer's power to lower prices.

The idea of co-ops actually is a good one I think, but they need to be allowed to buy insurance across state lines to be able to compete with big employers. And minimize restrictions on the coverage - I don't need coverage for hair implants :)

[Mishiny]

first off, government shouldn't even be involved with health care.

the reasons why HC in this country is expensive:

a. excessive regulation on drugmakers
b. excessive malpractice lawsuits
c. the level of care today uses machines- these cost big money to buy and to operate
d. there are leeches, so others who HAVE MONEY have to pay their costs
e. bureaucracy, as a result of the threat of lawsuits or regulation
f. it is a business, not a non profit system

IF you want cheaper health care then the best thing to do is relax regulation, put in place a tort system so that doctors or drugmakers who are sued, don't pay SQUAT if they win their case. And then disbar any attorney who is found to be bringing a 'frivolous suit' against any HC business.

The problem with making new drugs is that only about 1 in 10 make it to the market
this has the effect of starting off making the drugmaker have to recover 10x the normal cost just to break even. And then you have all the research that turns out to be "junk science" that has to be scrapped after potentially years of research. Once the drug hits the market, other companies analyze the contents, and make a generic version at a fraction of the cost. It is very hard to make money in the drug industry.

In general the best way to lower HC costs is to get government out of the way
and to put in place a tort system.
As usual Spinach, I think you are right on the money. I don't know enough about the drug industry to do anything more than just ask the questions. Since I manage the benefits for over 1000 employees, I am somewhat involved in the decision making processes for our insurance policies. I try to fight for the employees and the employer so I'm usually the mgr trying to stay atop the balance beam in the corporate board room meetings. These ideas of taking the tax credits away from the employer don't make sense. So far, employers have not been required to carry insurance or contribute and that cost they bare to do it is astronomical. I know my boss is already paying a tax rate of almost 60%. It begs the question Sean so often asks... just how much should he have to pay? I say take the insurance industry away from employers and let the free market work based on the ideas you suggested.

[Freep]

Your correct.

The main issue has always been the cost.
Hospitals, doctors and premiums are to high and will keep climbing
way higher then the rate of inflation.

So why this elaborate obamacare plan to destroy a system
that already works? They want to take control of your health.

What is needed is reform that lowers cost, nothing more.

Here are just few things.
Allowing companies to compete across state lines.
Remove goverment regs, that hinder competition.
Eliminate pre-conditions.
Model cost savngs plans like those at Cleveland Clinc, where
you can buy a "package" of services for one low price.
Allow the private market to do what it does best.

These are but a few ideas, that the democrates have
ignored.

One of the main reasons for the out of control costs is government interference!

1) government flood of money destroying market dynamics in health care
2) cost shifting - a) government not paying for services government demands health care industry provide to public at no cost, b) not paying full price for bills to Medicare and Medicade
3) government regulation restricting competition such as in A)only in-state medical insurance", and B) restricting what type of insurance products can be sold: what the plans must cover.

John Stossel clearly demonstrates the market dynamics problems with 3rd party payer systems (which includes any government single payer system) in his excellent documentary
"Sick In America: Whose body is it anyway?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEXFUbSbg1I