Is it Sola Scriptura or faith and good works that bring us salvation? [Archive]

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 5:44 pm

It is a major doctrinal divide between Catholics and Protestants. Sola Scriptura was coined by Martin Luther meaning "by faith alone" or also Sola Fide. The Catholic Church teaches that good works along with faith leads to salvation.

Actually most Protestants really believe that IMO. They just use jargon to explain it away.

I think they do it just to tick Catholics off. But, that's just my opinion.

You will have a bunch of Protestants coming in here protesting that good works don't save you, they are simply a byproduct of salvation, i.e. if you are a Christian you will do good works.

This is probably the most popular passage on the subject from a Protestant viewpoint.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In a nutshell the prevailing Protestant view is that you don't do good works to attain salvation, you do good works as a result of salvation.

It is really not worth fussing about the way people do. Pretty much everybody agrees that a true Christian will be involved in good works such as helping the homeless, providing charity for widows and orphans and donating time and money towards spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ around the globe.

OK. That's pretty much all there is to say on that. I am going to mosey on over to TTTM now and ask the Mods to lock this thread...:cool:

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 5:46 pm

Actually most Protestancs believe that IMO. They just use jargon to explain it away.

I think they do it just to tick Catholics off. But, that's just my opinion.

You will have a bunch of Protestants coming in here protesting that good works don't save you, they are simply a byproduct of salvation, i.e. if you are a Christian you will do good works.

This is probably the most popular passage on the subject from a Protestant viewpoint.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In a nutshell the prevailing Protestant view is that you don't do good works to attain salvation, you do good works as a result of salvation.

It is really not worth fussing about the way people do. Pretty much everybody agrees that a true Christian will be involved in good works such as helping the homeless, providing charity for widows and orphans and donating time and money towards spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ around the globe.

OK. That's pretty much all there is to say on that. I am going to mosey on over to TTTM now and ask the Mods to lock this thread...:cool:Lock it?

gpd®

September 30th, 2009, 5:46 pm

Tastes Great!!!!!!!.........Less Filling!!!!!!!

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 5:46 pm

Matters what church you go to.

Which has zero to do with what he asked.

SHE ASKED - Sorry Kate.:redface::redface:

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 5:49 pm

Which has zero to do with what he asked.

SHE ASKED - Sorry Kate.:redface::redface:Actually it does because different churches have different teachings on what she asked.

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 5:49 pm

Like I said it matters what church you go to.

I don't think that matters to God at all. I know that our representatives from the various one true churches like, Catholic, LDS, and Church of Christ think so, but I'm going to say, nah.

God looks on the heart, not the denominational association.

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 5:51 pm

Lock it?

Sure. I gave the definitive answer to your question.

Anything beyond this will be anticlimactic.

(It's a joke byz, work with me here, ok?)

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 5:51 pm

I don't think that matters to God at all. I know that our representatives from the various one true churches like, Catholic, LDS, and Church of Christ think so, but I'm going to say, nah.

God looks on the heart, not the denominational association.But different churches have different beliefs on theological doctrine.

gpd®

September 30th, 2009, 5:53 pm

Sure. I gave the definitive answer to your question.

Anything beyond this will be anticlimactic.

(It's a joke byz, work with me here, ok?)

What is that word they use for young zealots? Oh yeah, "impetuous.";)

gpd®

September 30th, 2009, 5:53 pm

But different churches have different beliefs on theological doctrine.

And that matters to an absolutely good and holy God?

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 5:54 pm

Actually it does because different churches have different teachings on what she asked.

Yes, but if you look at the thread title your question is

Is it Sola Scriptura or faith and good works that bring us salvation? (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1666981)

Not, "What Church Do You Belong To?"

Then you ask for OUR opinion, not what is the official doctrine of our churches, various and sundry.

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 5:54 pm

Never mind lol I need an aspirin.;)

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 5:56 pm

And that matters to an absolutely good and holy God?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/ANONYMOUSLAST/Horshack.jpg

Mr Gpd, Mr Gpd, I know the answer to this one!

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 5:57 pm

Never mind lol I need an aspirin.;)

This could be a new speed record for me. :cool: :cool:

Go lie down in a dark room for a few minutes byz, I will babysit the thread until you get back.

gpd®

September 30th, 2009, 6:00 pm

This could be a new speed record for me. :cool: :cool:

Go lie down in a dark room for a few minutes byz, I will babysit the thread until you get back.

Papa Ray, tell me a story please.:((

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 6:00 pm

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 6:05 pm

You forgot the Baptists. :whistle:

No...I didn't.

Ignoring is not the same as forgetting. ;)

Far as I can tell none of our Baptist folks up in here are talking to me these days so I didn't think it would be right to include them in my one true church list.

gpd®

September 30th, 2009, 6:06 pm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/ANONYMOUSLAST/Horshack.jpg

Mr Gpd, Mr Gpd, I know the answer to this one!

G'head, g'head......

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 6:08 pm

No...I didn't.

Ignoring is not the same as forgetting. ;)

Far as I can tell none of our Baptist folks up in here are talking to me these days so I didn't it would be right to include them in my only true church list.

Fair enough. :lol:

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 6:09 pm

Papa Ray, tell me a story please.:((

Here's a story about how all the Catholic and Protestant people spent hundreds and hundreds of years not getting along with one another because they couldn't agree on some verbiage...

A long time ago in Germany a man named Martin was born...

beaker

September 30th, 2009, 6:10 pm

No...I didn't.

Ignoring is not the same as forgetting. ;)

Far as I can tell none of our Baptist folks up in here are talking to me these days so I didn't think it would be right to include them in my one true church list.

I still talk to you and I'm Baptist.

Anyway, it's not our fault you turned traitor.;)

Still love ya though.

:hug:

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 6:11 pm

Originally Posted by RayMan http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=61846791#post61846791)
No...I didn't.

Ignoring is not the same as forgetting. ;)

Far as I can tell none of our Baptist folks up in here are talking to me these days so I didn't THINK it would be right to include them in my only true church list.

CIDhartha: Fair enough. :lol:

Nice reflexes. You totally grabbed that before I noticed I hadn't inserted THINK between didn't and it. Hope I don't report myself for editing your quote of my quote.

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 6:11 pm

I still talk to you and I'm Baptist.

Anyway, it's not our fault you turned traitor.;)

Still love ya though.

:hug:
You're still wet behind the ears though...No offense.

Another four or five months and you'll have me and Ray on your ignore list too.

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 6:13 pm

Nice reflexes. You totally grabbed that before I noticed I hadn't inserted THINK between didn't and it. Hope I don't report myself for editing your quote of my quote.
Don't worry, I'll do it myself if it'll make you feel better. :angel:

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 6:14 pm

You're still wet behind the ears though...No offense.

Another four or five months and you'll have me and Ray on your ignore list too.

Funny...beaker doesn't look Baptist. :think:

Wait, I take that back.

http://www.jimhillmedia.com/mb/images/upload/Beaker-Thumbnail-web.jpg

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 6:15 pm

I still talk to you and I'm Baptist.

Anyway, it's not our fault you turned traitor.;)

Still love ya though.

:hug:

Dittos, Mr Beak-Man.

beaker

September 30th, 2009, 6:16 pm

You're still wet behind the ears though...No offense.

Another four or five months and you'll have me and Ray on your ignore list too.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll47/beakerboysracing/LOL.gif

I guess I'm Baptist by association since the wife wants to go there. Doesn't really matter to me, though I really enjoy battling out Doctrine with my small group leader.
He looks like he needs a cold one every Sunday after I get done with him. Surprised I haven't been reassigned to another class.

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 6:17 pm

Funny...beaker doesn't look Baptist. :think:

Wait, I take that back.

http://www.jimhillmedia.com/mb/images/upload/Beaker-Thumbnail-web.jpg
Bug eyes...frowny face...crazy hair...reminds me of Brother Dennis...pastor where my grandparents went...Triune Baptist Church, on Broadway in beautiful downtown Gadsden, AL.

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 6:21 pm

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll47/beakerboysracing/LOL.gif

I guess I'm Baptist by association since the wife wants to go there. Doesn't really matter to me, though I really enjoy battling out Doctrine with my small group leader.
He looks like he needs a cold one every Sunday after I get done with him. Surprised I haven't been reassigned to another class.
He probably sends his Pentecostal neighbor to pick him up a fifth every Saturday.

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 6:47 pm

He probably sends his Pentecostal neighbor to pick him up a fifth every Saturday.

Y'all and your Blue Laws.

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 6:48 pm

Y'all and your Blue Laws.
Tell me about it. :rolleyes:

At least in Kentucky they started selling after 1 every Sunday...that way none of the heathens could get their liquor before the preacher did.

Voxpopuli

September 30th, 2009, 6:51 pm

Through faith comes salvation...in order to continue in said salvation works are needed, but not needed in for immediate salvation.

But is the initial act of faith, a work performed by the believer?:cool:

Koushi Shinigami

September 30th, 2009, 7:08 pm

Well, you can believe Jesus, when He said He is the way, or you can believe the Catholic Church. I'll go with Jesus.

Ok. Let's see what Jesus said:

Matt 7: 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

A lot of 'doing' in this passage too.

Matt 25: 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 7:13 pm

But is the initial act of faith, a work performed by the believer?:cool:
Hmm...that's possible. :think:

Voxpopuli

September 30th, 2009, 7:18 pm

Hmm...that's possible. :think:

I think our strict Calvinist friends might have something to say about that.

darknessesedge

September 30th, 2009, 7:22 pm

It is a major doctrinal divide between Catholics and Protestants. Sola Scriptura was coined by Martin Luther meaning "by faith alone" or also Sola Fide. The Catholic Church teaches that good works along with faith leads to salvation.

thanks for explaining it...I had no idea what sola script was..

faith alone...final answer

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 7:25 pm

You are welcome. Anybody want to know my opinion?;)

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 7:27 pm

thanks for explaining it...I had no idea what sola script was..

faith alone...final answerSola Scriptura. From the Latin.;)

darknessesedge

September 30th, 2009, 7:27 pm

You are welcome. Anybody want to know my opinion?;)

go 4 it

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 7:31 pm

Good works are also needed for salvation. Not only faith because anyone can say they believe in Christ but only a the truly good faithful would help the sick, or the poor, or the wounded.

darknessesedge

September 30th, 2009, 7:32 pm

Voxpopuli

September 30th, 2009, 7:33 pm

You are welcome. Anybody want to know my opinion?;)

Your name kind of gives away the answer. :razz:

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 7:40 pm

you will know them by their fruit...And the "fruit" is the good works.;)

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 7:44 pm

Good works are also needed for salvation. Not only faith because anyone can say they believe in Christ but only a the truly good faithful would help the sick, or the poor, or the wounded.
What work has one done to ask Christ in their life...aren't they doing this solely on faith? As Vox and I have briefly discussed..is asking Christ in your life considered a work? I don't know that it is...when I think of works I think of helping others that are in need...working to become a better person, doing my best not to sin...trying to live a life that's pleasing to God.

In the Pentecostal church we consider salvation to be the initial confession of faith. From there on out we are going through the process of sanctification...that may be foreign to someone who doesn't believe the way I do, I dunno.

darknessesedge

September 30th, 2009, 7:47 pm

And the "fruit" is the good works.;)

yes

beaker

September 30th, 2009, 7:51 pm

What work has one done to ask Christ in their life...aren't they doing this solely on faith? As Vox and I have briefly discussed..is asking Christ in your life considered a work? I don't know that it is...when I think of works I think of helping others that are in need...working to become a better person, doing my best not to sin...trying to live a life that's pleasing to God.

In the Pentecostal church we consider salvation to be the initial confession of faith. From there on out we are going through the process of sanctification...that may be foreign to someone who doesn't believe the way I do, I dunno.

Justification

then...

Santification

to ultimately...

Glorification.

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 7:52 pm

Oh and byz,

I think you got it wrong with your title.

I believe the question should have been

Sola Fide or faith and good works...?

Sola Scriptura - Scripture alone

Sola Fide - Faith alone

------------------

Wow, me giving the guy who took four years of Latin hints on Latin.

I feel all tingly.

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 7:54 pm

Justification

then...

Santification

to ultimately...

Glorification.
You gotz it.

See Ray, I told you not all Baptists were bad. ;)

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 7:55 pm

But is the initial act of faith, a work performed by the believer?:cool:

Some folk think it is a gift of God, and there is Scripture to back up that idea.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

As a Baptist years ago, I would have argued that grace is the gift Paul is talking about. Nowadays I am inclined to be less dogmatic about that.

Heck, nowadays I'm not even pupmatic about it.

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 7:57 pm

You gotz it.

See Ray, I told you not all Baptists were bad. ;)

No you didn't!

Just 'cuz beaker is the only Baptist up in here that doesn't ignore you doesn't mean you have to get all sychophantic and stuff.

Disclaimer: No Baptists were hurt in the course of this joke. Carry on.

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 8:01 pm

I think our strict Calvinist friends might have something to say about that.

Oh, look. A tulip. So irresistibly graceful.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:pGFiBw2pdZ2_UM:http://www.freefoto.com/images/12/61/12_61_66---Tulip_web.jpg

T -- total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.
U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.
L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.
I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.
P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 8:03 pm

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 8:04 pm

No you didn't!

Just 'cuz beaker is the only Baptist up in here that doesn't ignore you doesn't mean you have get all sychophantic and stuff.

Disclaimer: No Baptists were hurt in the course of this joke. Carry on.
:cry:

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 8:04 pm

Sola Scriptura. From the Latin.;)

Which does not mean faith alone byz.

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 8:09 pm

Originally Posted by RayMan http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=61852461#post61852461)
No you didn't!

Just 'cuz beaker is the only Baptist up in here that doesn't ignore you doesn't mean you have TO get all sychophantic and stuff.

Disclaimer: No Baptists were hurt in the course of this joke. Carry on.

Darth InCIDious: :cry:

And quit altering my quotes to make me look unedjamakated. You know I had the word "to" between "have" and "get."

Sheesh.

smyrna

September 30th, 2009, 8:09 pm

Is it Sola Scriptura or faith and good works that bring us salvation?

Yes

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 8:10 pm

Is it Sola Scriptura or faith and good works that bring us salvation?

Yes

Exactly.

CID,

Tell us what smyrna has won from the Spiegel Catalog.

CID_0687

September 30th, 2009, 8:15 pm

Exactly.

CID,

Tell us what smyrna has won from the Spiegel Catalog.
Well Ray, Smyrna will be taking home a 3 piece set of Nesting Tables.

Set of three triangular tables with black wood veneer tops and chrome-finished metal legs. Large: Height, 19"; Each side, 19 ½". Medium: Height, 17"; Each side, 17 ½". Small: Height, 15 ½"; Each side, 16 ½". Imported.

A gift valued at $119.00

smyrna

September 30th, 2009, 8:15 pm

Exactly.

CID,

Tell us what smyrna has won from the Spiegel Catalog.

Don't they have a Cabela's prize package?:mrgreen:

beaker

September 30th, 2009, 8:26 pm

No you didn't!

Just 'cuz beaker is the only Baptist up in here that doesn't ignore you doesn't mean you have to get all sychophantic and stuff.

Disclaimer: No Baptists were hurt in the course of this joke. Carry on.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll47/beakerboysracing/NeenerNeener-1.gif

You're just sore because I'm not your typical Baptist.;)

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 9:00 pm

Which does not mean faith alone byz.Sola Fide. Sola Scriptura means "the scriptures alone" which is generally considered to be the faith anyway.

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 9:07 pm

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 9:13 pm

Um, "Secundum autem simile est huic diliges proximum tuum sicut te ipsum."

A great truth byz. :hug:

39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) thy neighbour as thyself.

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 9:14 pm

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll47/beakerboysracing/NeenerNeener-1.gif

You're just sore because I'm not your typical Baptist.;)

Oxymoron alert!!!

BTW - Meri asked me to reprimand you for the way you have been derailing byz's thread.

Shame on you. :naughty::naughty:

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 9:18 pm

Sola Fide. Sola Scriptura means "the scriptures alone" which is generally considered to be the faith anyway.

Really?

By Catholics?

That surprises me. Doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for Papal Infallibility, The Magisterium and Sacred Tradition if you are going to say that Scripture Alone is the faith.

But, if you say so, I will believe it.

Semi-Sweet

September 30th, 2009, 9:24 pm

Tell me about it. :rolleyes:

At least in Kentucky they started selling after 1 every Sunday...that way none of the heathens could get their liquor before the preacher did.

Hey Hey Hey, who you calling Heetherns?

:flag:

THE LIGHT

September 30th, 2009, 9:26 pm

As a Protestant, I've learned good works is a fruit of faith, not an equal of faith.

eta: I understand Luther had a problem with that.

Well stated.

byzantine catholic

September 30th, 2009, 9:31 pm

Really?

By Catholics?

That surprises me. Doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for Papal Infallibility, The Magisterium and Sacred Tradition if you are going to say that Scripture Alone is the faith.

But, if you say so, I will believe it.No I did not say that. I was saying what the phrase meant.

Semi-Sweet

September 30th, 2009, 9:32 pm

Semi-Sweet

September 30th, 2009, 9:34 pm

But is the initial act of faith, a work performed by the believer?:cool:

I don't see how a person can perform work before he is enlisted. Just sayin'

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 9:44 pm

No I did not say that. I was saying what the phrase meant.

So you were saying that Protestants view Sola Scriptura as being the faith?

You have to be saying somebody views it as that if you are saying that is what it means.
Byz -
Sola Scriptura means "the scriptures alone" which is generally considered to be the faith anyway.

My question is WHO considers it to be the faith?

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 9:46 pm

I was searching through the thread to see if someone mentioned that before I did.

:cool:

Just tryin' to give my boy byz a helping hand.

DRS

September 30th, 2009, 10:48 pm

What is your opinion?

both

RayMan

September 30th, 2009, 10:54 pm

both

Canadians. :rolleyes:

Always hedging their bets. :cool:

Voxpopuli

September 30th, 2009, 11:49 pm

I don't see how a person can perform work before he is enlisted. Just sayin'

I was just being sarcastic. It was a reference concerning a particular doctrine. Ray, picked up on it in his post with the Tulip picture.

It may seem like something irrelevant but theologians have written volumes on it.

Semi-Sweet

October 1st, 2009, 12:17 am

I was just being sarcastic. It was a reference concerning a particular doctrine. Ray, picked up on it in his post with the Tulip picture.

It may seem like something irrelevant but theologians have written volumes on it.

OOPS! I have been several steps behind on the forum today. :doh:

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 12:19 am

OOPS! I have been several steps behind on the forum today. :doh:

Have a little Campbellite soup and relax. :cool:

Semi-Sweet

October 1st, 2009, 12:26 am

Have a little Campbellite soup and relax. :cool:

Good idea!

Voxpopuli

October 1st, 2009, 12:34 am

Have a little Campbellite soup and relax. :cool:

The denominational zingers are just flying tonight.

Semi-Sweet

October 1st, 2009, 12:37 am

The denominational zingers are just flying tonight.

I'm right at home in a denominational zinging. :cool:

CID_0687

October 1st, 2009, 2:48 am

Hey Hey Hey, who you calling Heetherns?

:flag:
All the unchurched rapscallions and my friend.

Finality

October 1st, 2009, 3:57 am

I only skimmed through a brief section of this thread, so I don't know if this has been covered.

Noting the title of the thread:
Is it Sola Scriptura or faith and good works that bring us salvation?
Has anyone pointed out that Sola scriptura means, roughly, "the bible is the only authority"?

Sola scriptura has to do with salvation only so far as whether a Christian believes that the bible is the sole authority on salvation (or rather, Christianity in general) or whether he or she believes that there are other authorities (e.g., the Church, the Magisterium, bishops, popes, anti-popes, presbyters, etc).

One could hold sola scriptura and sola fide, or one could hold sola scriptura and non sola fide. Or any other combination in the matrices of solas/non solas.

There is no divide between sola scriptura and faith + works. The comparison doesn't even make sense.

Courtesy, your local Rules Lawyer (everyone hates playing board games with me). :))

texan_rep

October 1st, 2009, 6:59 am

God doesn't make robots.

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 8:12 am

I only skimmed through a brief section of this thread, so I don't know if this has been covered.

Noting the title of the thread:

Has anyone pointed out that Sola scriptura means, roughly, "the bible is the only authority"?

Sola scriptura has to do with salvation only so far as whether a Christian believes that the bible is the sole authority on salvation (or rather, Christianity in general) or whether he or she believes that there are other authorities (e.g., the Church, the Magisterium, bishops, popes, anti-popes, presbyters, etc).

One could hold sola scriptura and sola fide, or one could hold sola scriptura and non sola fide. Or any other combination in the matrices of solas/non solas.

There is no divide between sola scriptura and faith + works. The comparison doesn't even make sense.

Courtesy, your local Rules Lawyer (everyone hates playing board games with me). :))

Nice summation. I already brought this up to byz in a less elegant fashion, back on page 2 or 3.

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 8:15 am

God doesn't make robots.

Very true.

That is more of a Dr Evil sort of thing.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:NNrpQoeLHTVGJM:http://blogs.ajc.com/iceman-thrashers-blog/files/2009/02/dr-evil.jpg

Of course he specialized in FemBots rather than your basic "Danger, Will Robinson" sort of robot.

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 8:43 am

What work has one done to ask Christ in their life...aren't they doing this solely on faith? As Vox and I have briefly discussed..is asking Christ in your life considered a work?

It's something the individual has to DO. So yes.

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 8:44 am

Oh, look. A tulip. So irresistibly graceful.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:pGFiBw2pdZ2_UM:http://www.freefoto.com/images/12/61/12_61_66---Tulip_web.jpg

T -- total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.
U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.
L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.
I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.
P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

TULIPs are poisonous. And can cause dizziness, abdominal pain and upset, and even, on occasion, convulsions.

https://museum.gov.ns.ca/poison/default.asp?section=species&id=124

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 8:49 am

"I'm dancing on an landmine baby,
one leg left...."

Rational, I have a feeling you are about to escape this forum.

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 8:52 am

:sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:

TULIPs are poisonous. And can cause dizziness, abdominal pain and upset, and even, on occasion, convulsions.

https://museum.gov.ns.ca/poison/default.asp?section=species&id=124

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the T.U.L.I.P.

For the life of me I don not get why people are attracted to Calvinism. It just doesn't make sense Biblically to me. Oh well. I suppose there is an infinitesimal chance that I could be wrong...

Nah...that's just crazy talk.

Meriweather

October 1st, 2009, 8:53 am

So you're not going to reply, rational? In other words, you know we Catholics can refute each and every charge you make in post #99.

Especially as you say you will not discuss your allegations, I do believe that post may be in violation of the rules of respect for this forum. (Did you see the sticky at the top of the Religion Forum page?) You may wish to edit or delete.

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 8:54 am

"I'm dancing on an landmine baby,
one leg left...."

Rational, I have a feeling you are about to escape this forum.

Really. We have strict rules in here about paragraphing and Rational has flouted those rules in a most egregious fashion.

Not too friendly towards our Catholic friends either, now that I think of it.

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 8:58 am

Really. We have strict rules in here about paragraphing and Rational has flouted those rules in a most egregious fashion.

Not too friendly towards our Catholic friends either, now that I think of it.

It's in the Mod's hands now.

Meriweather

October 1st, 2009, 9:01 am

It's in the Mod's hands now.

:((

You never give me time to play with strangers.

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 9:06 am

:((

You never give me time to play with strangers.

Just protecting the unarmed strangers. ;)

Meriweather

October 1st, 2009, 9:20 am

Just protecting the unarmed strangers. ;)

:))

byzantine catholic

October 1st, 2009, 9:20 am

So you were saying that Protestants view Sola Scriptura as being the faith?

You have to be saying somebody views it as that if you are saying that is what it means.

My question is WHO considers it to be the faith?The Protestants yes but what I mean by "faith alone" is that Protestants believe that all you need to know about God and the Church is in the Bible while the Catholic Church believes the institution of the Church ie the Pope, College of Cardinals, etc. also give doctrine on the faith.

DRS

October 1st, 2009, 9:26 am

Canadians. :rolleyes:

Always hedging their bets. :cool:

Faith follows the thing heard, without the scriptures where does one learn or have the authority to teach

Without faith it is impossible to please Him

How does one show faith without works

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 10:28 am

If Rational has no arms that could explain the lack of paragraphs. Saving keystrokes made with the nose.

Who's Rational? I don't see any post by a member with such a name. :shrug:

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 10:28 am

The Protestants yes but what I mean by "faith alone" is that Protestants believe that all you need to know about God and the Church is in the Bible while the Catholic Church believes the institution of the Church ie the Pope, College of Cardinals, etc. also give doctrine on the faith.

See now, that is what I was trying to get you to write. This is the sort of subject where you need to spell things out clearly rather than just assuming everyone knows what you are talking about.

Your explanation of what "faith alone" means to Protestants is incorrect but it is a start in the right direction.

Thanks.

beaker

October 1st, 2009, 10:58 am

See now, that is what I was trying to get you to write. This is the sort of subject where you need to spell things out clearly rather than just assuming everyone knows what you are talking about.

Your explanation of what "faith alone" means to Protestants is incorrect but it is a start in the right direction.

Thanks.

Teach us O Wise Pope of the Pentecostal Church.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll47/beakerboysracing/Master.gif

Hope I spell Pentecostal right....

Baptist is much easier to spell.

CID_0687

October 1st, 2009, 11:12 am

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 11:29 am

As a Catholic how do you know what Protestants believe? And, keep in mind that there are many many brands of Protestantism.

Take everything the Catholics believe and look to the opposite.

That's one theory, anyway.

CID_0687

October 1st, 2009, 11:33 am

Take everything the Catholics believe and look to the opposite.

That's one theory, anyway.
So when Catholics repent they tell God that they aren't sorry and they'd do it all again?

Interesting...

;)

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 11:36 am

:)) :)) :)) :)) :))

Isn't ecumunicalism wonderful?

Semi-Sweet

October 1st, 2009, 11:51 am

Teach us O Wise Pope of the Pentacostal Church.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll47/beakerboysracing/Master.gif

Hope I spell Pentacostal right....

Baptist is much easier to spell.

You better change those a's to e's before the Emperor of nit-pickery sees it!

gpd®

October 1st, 2009, 12:43 pm

I don't see how a person can perform work before he is enlisted. Just sayin'

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is a substance or an evidence which are nouns. Works is a verb. Don't know why people keep calling faith a works.

gpd®

October 1st, 2009, 12:52 pm

:((

You never give me time to play with strangers.

LOL, we don't have "castle laws" here, at least that I could think of.

Semi-Sweet

October 1st, 2009, 12:57 pm

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is a substance or an evidence which are nouns. Works is a verb. Don't know why people keep calling faith a works.

I don't understand it either. :confused:

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 1:22 pm

I guess my followup response was deleted. What's weird, is there isn't even a "post removed" slot? (I presume the moderator is Catholic?)

Actually, no. Just fair in his application of the rules of respect as pertains to this subforum. Those rules are in a sticky at the top of this forum and I highly recommend one reads them. They are excellent reading.

ETA: I hope you will read and abide by those rules. I would like to see you stick around a while. I know Meri would like a new playmate to debate with.

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 1:29 pm

You better change those a's to e's before the Emperor of nit-pickery sees it!

Excellent advice here beaker. I would suggest you act on it posthaste.

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 1:35 pm

I guess my followup response was deleted. What's weird, is there isn't even a "post removed" slot?<snip>

I believe Iggy is a Jedi Knight.

Any of the mods would have removed that post, regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof.

Same thing would happen if you had been dissing Mormons, Pentecostals, Hindus or Baptists...well, maybe not Baptists. ;)

Koushi Shinigami

October 1st, 2009, 1:36 pm

You keep leaving out the Shinto.

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 1:40 pm

You keep leaving out the Shinto.

Left out the Lutherans also. Snipes will probably get all huffy about that when he gets back from tracking down Bambi's deadbeat dad and making him pay the price.

Finality

October 1st, 2009, 3:32 pm

Nice summation. I already brought this up to byz in a less elegant fashion, back on page 2 or 3.
Figures that if anyone did, it would have been you. ;)

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 3:34 pm

Figures that if anyone did, it would have been you. ;)

Beat Semi-Sweet to it by "that much."

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:vW8YzHdlqu55KM:http://www.rabbireport.com/039_14080.jpg

byzantine catholic

October 1st, 2009, 4:09 pm

I guess my followup response was deleted. What's weird, is there isn't even a "post removed" slot? (I presume the moderator is Catholic?)No just do not disrespect anyone's religion and you will be fine!http://forums.hannity.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 4:39 pm

No just do disrespect anyone's religion and you will be fine!http://forums.hannity.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Good advice byz. Of course it should read "do NOT disrespect..." :dance:

gpd®

October 1st, 2009, 5:20 pm

Good advice byz. Of course it should read "do NOT disrespect..." :dance:-

You picknitter.

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 5:24 pm

-

You picknitter.

Pretty much, yeah.

My avatar and sig line represent the zenith of truth in advertising.

gpd®

October 1st, 2009, 5:26 pm

Pretty much, yeah.

My avatar and sig line represent the zenith of truth in advertising.
Yeah, it was great to see Giff break character for that one.

RayMan

October 1st, 2009, 5:27 pm

Yeah, it was great to see Giff break character for that one.

It was a beautiful thing. :cool:

HeyJude

October 1st, 2009, 5:36 pm

Rurudyne

October 1st, 2009, 6:04 pm

A few points: Luther USED certain terms or terms to describe concepts but that doesn't mean they originated with him.

Solo Scriptura is "by Scripture alone" and is a standard for knowledge of God's will AND NOT a standard for salvation. None are saved "by the Scriptures".

Instead, Sola Scriptura contrast a different trend within the body of faith whereby ecclesiastical authority was deemed as having interpretative authority. Part and parcel of this debate was if the Scriptures were perspicacious so that those reading them could understand well enough the need for and requirements for salvation.

There are complementary debates over many different topics one might consider: the Karaites as Jews who rejected the oral traditions and the teachings of the Rabbis which pretended is likely the most exact parallel.

That said, the difference between the expectations of the Framers and all early Courts in this nation and latter-day "anything goes" Courts also is somewhat similar.

Solo Scriptura DOES NOT mean that there are no "hard text" at all; but, it merely means that God was in the final analysis able to put the proverbial cookies on a low enough shelf that men of meager ability could come to terms with them. Paul might agree with me when I assert that when he wrote that not many among the saved were great as the world thinks of greatness: this reflects on the kind of a notion. Further, we are flatly told that the Gospel (in this case the meanness of it) was and is an offense to some.

"By Faith alone" is instead Solo Fides. This is the standard set forth for what is required by God from man for his salvation.

Finally, there is the standard for how salvation is actually accomplished: Solo Gratia, or "by Grace alone".

These three express long standing threads of Christian thought which Luther picked up on. They also were direct challenges to the notions for where and how truth was communicated (and who could understand it), what was required for salvation and, finally, how it was actually accomplished as these were known by the Roman Church in that day.

HeyJude

October 1st, 2009, 6:30 pm

Solo Scriptura is "by Scripture alone" and is a standard for knowledge of God's will AND NOT a standard for salvation. None are saved "by the Scriptures".

Instead, Sola Scriptura contrast a different trend within the body of faith whereby ecclesiastical authority was deemed as having interpretative authority. Part and parcel of this debate was if the Scriptures were perspicacious so that those reading them could understand well enough the need for and requirements for salvation.

<snip>

Solo Scriptura DOES NOT mean that there are no "hard text" at all; but, it merely means that God was in the final analysis able to put the proverbial cookies on a low enough shelf that men of meager ability could come to terms with them. Paul might agree with me when I assert that when he wrote that not many among the saved were great as the world thinks of greatness: this reflects on the kind of a notion. Further, we are flatly told that the Gospel (in this case the meanness of it) was and is an offense to some.

As I understand it, Solo Scriptura, Scripture Alone, was/is a denial of Church Authority and the teaching of Church Traditions; if it wasn't written in the Scriptures, then it wasn't Truth.
Interesting to note, Luther removed a few Books from the Bible.

Rurudyne

October 1st, 2009, 6:55 pm

As I understand it, Solo Scriptura, Scripture Alone, was/is a denial of Church Authority and the teaching of Church Traditions; if it wasn't written in the Scriptures, then it wasn't Truth.
Interesting to note, Luther removed a few Books from the Bible.
This is and it is not true, insofar as it fails to recognize the longstanding struggle.

Even early on there were those who fought to get the Word of God into the hands of all believers as such was even possible. Likewise, with folks like Irenaeus (if memory serves me right), there were those who fought to keep them out of the hands of lay people too — and often for reasons that sounded good (particularly as such was "related" to heresies ... i.e. you can't twist what you can't read for yourself).

But this is NOT exactly as you characterize it, for in keeping the written Word to itself the Roman Church had actually fallen prey to the very problem of inventions that the whole thing had essentially started off to avoid. Lay people, ignorant of truth they could read for themselves, still invented and adopted ideas that, becoming popular, infected the Chruch from the bottom up rather than the top down (as was the case with leaders of different heresies). Thus priest and monks sometimes took their little stories from childhood with them and bit by bit built up intellectual sounding defenses for these.

And these were sometimes among the very things that Luthor challenged the church over.

The truth is, that the Roman Church at the time had utterly failed to maintain the orthodoxy of the faith and so had invalidated the only logical claim they had to their authority.

Yes, the claim to authority of that nature is, I will maintain, absolutely spurious. Especially in light of the historical failure to properly exercise it (the 'reformation' of the RCC was no illusion, nor was the final abandonment of the idea that ordinary people shouldn't read the Word for themselves ... though with a caveat still offered).

Luthor himself wasn't blind to this, for he said (paraphrase from memory) that he'd rather deal with the problems associated with ordinary people reading the Scriptures rather than deal with the problems associated with them not-reading them.

As for the books "eliminated", the records of the debates about which text to include in the canon were hardly secret nor were the issues surrounding some. Possibly you should consider that, as an example, the "Apocrypha" are books of sometimes questionable origin (and sometimes questionable merit, or some might maintain).

Contrary to modern skeptics, the Church Fathers weren't at all confused about who wrote what — Hebrews infamously aside — but when they were unsure they weren't quiet about it either. Giving reasons that could, in fact, be later inspected.

byzantine catholic

October 1st, 2009, 6:58 pm

Good advice byz. Of course it should read "do NOT disrespect..." :dance:Whoops my mind is gone today lol.:surprised

byzantine catholic

October 1st, 2009, 6:59 pm

It is my understanding the CC teaches we are saved by God's Grace.Yes the Church does teach that but it also teaches that faith and good works lead us to God's Grace.

gpd®

October 1st, 2009, 7:01 pm

Yes the Church does teach that but it also teaches that faith and good works lead us to God's Grace.

Sounds backwards. God's Grace should lead us to faith and good works.

byzantine catholic

October 1st, 2009, 7:06 pm

Sounds backwards. God's Grace should lead us to faith and good works.Well what I mean is the grace of salvation.

HeyJude

October 1st, 2009, 7:09 pm

This is and it is not true, insofar as it fails to recognize the longstanding struggle.

Even early on there were those who fought to get the Word of God into the hands of all believers as such was even possible. Likewise, with folks like Irenaeus (if memory serves me right), there were those who fought to keep them out of the hands of lay people too — and often for reasons that sounded good (particularly as such was "related" to heresies ... i.e. you can't twist what you can't read for yourself).

But this is NOT exactly as you characterize it, for in keeping the written Word to itself the Roman Church had actually fallen prey to the very problem of inventions that the whole thing had essentially started off to avoid. Lay people, ignorant of truth they could read for themselves, still invented and adopted ideas that, becoming popular, infected the Chruch from the bottom up rather than the top down (as was the case with leaders of different heresies). Thus priest and monks sometimes took their little stories from childhood with them and bit by bit built up intellectual sounding defenses for these.

And these were sometimes among the very things that Luthor challenged the church over.

The truth is, that the Roman Church at the time had utterly failed to maintain the orthodoxy of the faith and so had invalidated the only logical claim they had to their authority.

Yes, the claim to authority of that nature is, I will maintain, absolutely spurious. Especially in light of the historical failure to properly exercise it (the 'reformation' of the RCC was no illusion, nor was the final abandonment of the idea that ordinary people shouldn't read the Word for themselves ... though with a caveat still offered).

Luthor himself wasn't blind to this, for he said (paraphrase from memory) that he'd rather deal with the problems associated with ordinary people reading the Scriptures rather than deal with the problems associated with them not-reading them.

As for the books "eliminated", the records of the debates about which text to include in the canon were hardly secret nor were the issues surrounding some. Possibly you should consider that, as an example, the "Apocrypha" are books of sometimes questionable origin (and sometimes questionable merit, or some might maintain).

Contrary to modern skeptics, the Church Fathers weren't at all confused about who wrote what — Hebrews infamously aside — but when they were unsure they weren't quiet about it either. Giving reasons that could, in fact, be later inspected.

Well, again, it all boils down to rejecting the Authority of the Church.

gpd®

October 1st, 2009, 7:09 pm

Well what I mean is the grace of salvation.

We have all been given salvation and have been given grace long before we choose to accept it.

Grace and salvation are there for the the taking by believing on the finished work of Jesus. Faith and works don't get you there. They are the results of your choice.

HeyJude

October 1st, 2009, 7:13 pm

Yes the Church does teach that but it also teaches that faith and good works lead us to God's Grace.

Grace is the priority; without Grace, all the faith and works in the world would never save anyone.

Rurudyne

October 1st, 2009, 7:20 pm

Well, again, it all boils down to rejecting the Authority of the Church.

Still, Luthor did not exist within a vacuum nor was he without precedent.

As I implied earlier: there is something we have received and our choice is ... do we receive it or do we not receive it.

This is true if that something is as important as the Scriptures or as transient as the Constitution.

One can know where the Scriptures come from if they are God's Word ... but the body of interpretation that has, at times it seems, been added to these?

Remember, the Roman Church in Luthor's day is not exactly the same as the RCC today. It was rotten and corrupt to the core in many ways and was so in no small measure for reason of the very body that had claimed said authority in the first place to protect the faith. That there was a reform of this system from within later demonstrates that the errors weren't illusions first and foremost.

The Authority of the Faith is either in the Scriptures or in those who claim authority over them (if only a practical claim — essentially only because of the way things end up — or an exclusive/intentional claim it hardly matters).

HeyJude

October 1st, 2009, 7:29 pm

We have all been given salvation and have been given grace long before we choose to accept it.

Grace and salvation are there for the the taking by believing on the finished work of Jesus. Faith and works don't get you there. They are the results of your choice.

On the bolded, keep in mind, even Satan believes and understands the work Jesus did on the Cross. And anyone can say they accept Jesus as their Savior. The Bible says we can know a person by their fruits. Only God can know a person's heart, but works and the fruit of those works will show a person's heart. Without good works, it's doubtful if a person is truely saved.

HeyJude

October 1st, 2009, 7:50 pm

Still, Luthor did not exist within a vacuum nor was he without precedent.

As I implied earlier: there is something we have received and our choice is ... do we receive it or do we not receive it.

This is true if that something is as important as the Scriptures or as transient as the Constitution.

One can know where the Scriptures come from if they are God's Word ... but the body of interpretation that has, at times it seems, been added to these?

Remember, the Roman Church in Luthor's day is not exactly the same as the RCC today. It was rotten and corrupt to the core in many ways and was so in no small measure for reason of the very body that had claimed said authority in the first place to protect the faith. That there was a reform of this system from within later demonstrates that the errors weren't illusions first and foremost.

The Authority of the Faith is either in the Scriptures or in those who claim authority over them (if only a practical claim — essentially only because of the way things end up — or an exclusive/intentional claim it hardly matters).

The Sin of Luther was he split the faithful, divided the family of God into thousands of fragments. It was his job then, and our job now, to be One as Christ desires us to be united as One with Him and with the Father. Yes, the Church leadership, in many ways but not all, was corrupt. But corruption is fought from within and rooted out. If Luther had waited, the changes he desired could have taken place possibly within his lifetime. And, btw, Luther himself was not without some personal corruption.

But back to the teaching, in those days, most people couldn't read. And before the printing press, it would have been impossible for everyone to "have their own Bible". Going back to the first Christians, there was no Bible. They depended upon the spoken word, their teaching coming from the words of their teachers, which came from the Bishops.

Deak2112

October 2nd, 2009, 3:33 am

Through faith comes salvation...in order to continue in said salvation works are needed, but not needed in for immediate salvation.

So if you stop doing the works you lose your salavtion? If so then that means your salvation was based on your works. Back to Ephesians 2:9 "not of works."

texan_rep

October 2nd, 2009, 6:59 am

So if you stop doing the works you lose your salavtion? If so then that means your salvation was based on your works. Back to Ephesians 2:9 "not of works."

Read Matthew 25 and find out what Christ had to say. Paul is Scripture, but it's "second-hand" information compared to what Christ Himself had to say.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 7:07 am

Whoops my mind is gone today lol.:surprised

We all drop a word from time to time. I knew what you meant and you were right on the money. ;)

Just wanted to clarify it so nobody else would mistake what you were saying.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 7:10 am

Well, again, it all boils down to rejecting the Authority of the Church.

From a Pentecostal perspective I would say rejecting the authority of the Roman Catholic Church as opposed to the authority of the THE Church, since we believe that all those who believe in Christ as Savior are THE Church, rather than just the folk who look to Rome for earthly spiritual leadership.

Just sayin'. :hug:

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 7:12 am

So if you stop doing the works you lose your salavtion? If so then that means your salvation was based on your works. Back to Ephesians 2:9 "not of works."

I don't think that is what CID is saying. On the other hand, he is from Alabama. :think:

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 7:14 am

Read Matthew 25 and find out what Christ had to say. Paul is Scripture, but it's "second-hand" information compared to what Christ Himself had to say.

Mornin' Tex.

Why must you always diss my man Paul? Do you believe he is off base in his teachings?

If so, why?

texan_rep

October 2nd, 2009, 7:16 am

Mornin' Tex.

Why must you always diss my man Paul? Do you believe he is off base in his teachings?

If so, why?

I don't think he's "off base". I think he is often misinterpreted.

We always want the easy way out. It's human nature.

texan_rep

October 2nd, 2009, 7:18 am

I also find it very interesting that Paul gets quoted a lot, but if I bring up Christ's words to those people, I get ignored. (Most of the time)

Not angry about it...merely intrigued.

Exactly who is God here, anyway?

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 7:18 am

I don't think he's "off base". I think he is often misinterpreted.

We always want the easy way out. It's human nature.

I can agree with that. Thanks. It has sometimes seemed to me that you have a disdain for Paul's writings. I am glad to hear that is not so.

texan_rep

October 2nd, 2009, 7:23 am

Paul doesn't stress our responsibilities like James does, but he does hit them occasionally. People tend to gloss over those verses, though.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 7:29 am

Paul doesn't stress our responsibilities like James does, but he does hit them occasionally. People tend to gloss over those verses, though.

I think the disparity between their writings may be a result of the fact that James was writing to Christians with a Jewish background and Paul was, for the most part, addressing Christians from a Gentile background who had no history of following the traditions of Jewish law.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Even to our day, a teacher will approach different people groups in different manners, in order to make oneself understood.

optrader

October 2nd, 2009, 8:05 am

You are not a Christian because you do good works, you do good works because you are a Christian.

Our works have nothing to do with salvation. The book of Galations pretty much refutes the notion of salvation by works. If you try and work your way into the kingdom, you are under the law, which is not sufficient unto salvation.

However, scripture says "ye shall know them by their fruits." While non-Christians are certainly capable of doing good works, it would be contradictory for someone to say " I am a Christian" and not have a willingness to do good works. Since others can't read our hearts and minds, backing up our words with works seems a prudent way to demonstrate our faith.

What good works can an infant do? Are they then lost should they die, for lack of works? What about an adult who has an accident that leaves them paralyzed from the neck down and on a respirator. If they accept Christ in this condition, are they also lost because they lack the ability to do works?

I have asked my pastor about "saved" people who live wicked lives. He tells me there will be people in heaven who lived such lives but they will have no glory, they will have no service to perform for Jesus, they did not devote their life to "laying up treasure in the kindon." In other words, no good works- I am studying this position. I do believe Christians have a duty to do good works, but it is not the works that save, it is the underlying faith...

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 8:35 am

I have asked my pastor about "saved" people who live wicked lives. He tells me there will be people in heaven who lived such lives but they will have no glory, they will have no service to perform for Jesus, they did not devote their life to "laying up treasure in the kindon." In other words, no good works- I am studying this position. I do believe Christians have a duty to do good works, but it is not the works that save, it is the underlying faith...

So what? They made it through the gate.

To me, that theology cheapens the value of salvation, and I do not subscribe to it.

Old_Mil

October 2nd, 2009, 9:56 am

What is your opinion?

I'm not entirely sure that I get where the question is going...sola scriptura are the highway signs to the narrow way. Faith brings salvation. Works bring crowns.

None of the 3 concepts really tread on each other...

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:02 am

I'm not entirely sure that I get where the question is going...sola scriptura are the highway signs to the narrow way. Faith brings salvation. Works bring crowns.

None of the 3 concepts really tread on each other...

Why would someone want to work for crowns?

CID_0687

October 2nd, 2009, 10:14 am

So if you stop doing the works you lose your salavtion? If so then that means your salvation was based on your works. Back to Ephesians 2:9 "not of works."
Are you gonna suggest that James was a liar? :eh:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend.
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:18 am

Are you gonna suggest that James was a liar? :eh:

*sticks fingers in ears*

He wasn't talking to me!!!! LALALALALALALALALALALLALAA!!!!!

:rolleyes: :)) :)) :))

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 10:20 am

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 10:21 am

*sticks fingers in ears*

He wasn't talking to me!!!! LALALALALALALALALALALLALAA!!!!!

:rolleyes: :)) :)) :))

Baby shark...

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:25 am

duh duh duh duh duhduh

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:27 am

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 10:30 am

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:34 am

God likes me better than he does Abe.

I think that is a great policy.

My kids used to argue about which one was the favorite son. It was immature and juvenile of them then.
Nothing is different when God's children do it.

Reeder

October 2nd, 2009, 10:35 am

Are you gonna suggest that James was a liar? :eh:

Dispensational Jim is one of the only people who has ever given me a straight forward answer to that question.

terri910

October 2nd, 2009, 10:36 am

Dispensational Jim is one of the only people who has ever given me a straight forward answer to that question.
Well....what was his answer?

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:37 am

Dispensational Jim is one of the only people who has ever given me a straight forward answer to that question.

Straight forward, perhaps. Doesn't make it an answer I'm going to subscribe to.

optrader

October 2nd, 2009, 10:37 am

So what? They made it through the gate.

To me, that theology cheapens the value of salvation, and I do not subscribe to it.

That was my first thought too, but the scripture says WE are to lay up treasure, it does not not say treasure has been laid up for us. This seems to indicate that the responsibility is partially ours. How exactly do we lay up treasure? What if someone hasn't been as fruitful for the kingdom (deliberately, due to a less than Christian attitude)as someone who has devoted their life to glorifying Christ and witnessing? True, salvation is salvation, but what are we going to be doing in Heaven anyway? Are there different levels of service?
As I said, I am studying this. My pastor gave me more than one scripture to support this notion, I won't rule it out simply because of my preconceived notions.

Is. 28:10 " For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" This is the way I am going to approach this...

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:38 am

Well....what was his answer?

Let's see if I can get it correct.

James was only talking to Jews.
Paul was only talking to Gentiles.
EVERYONE, whether they think they are Jew or Gentile, are all Gentiles.
Therefore, Paul's words are the only ones that count now.

CID_0687

October 2nd, 2009, 10:39 am

Could someone explain to me if James is only speaking to the Jews when he's telling them faith without works is dead, and Paul is only speaking to the Gentiles when he says saved by grace alone, why the double standard?
I don't think it's a double standard, I think they are both correct. Grace is what saves us. Salvation is a gift that's freely given to us from God. Once someone has received this gift though, they have a responsibility to God and to themselves, this is where doing works comes into play. Helping those less fortunate than ourselves, teaching the Gospel to those who have never heard, or that don't understand.

We can look at the life of Paul and know that he believed that one should work for God...if not, after his experience on the road to Damascus, he would have just been sitting around thanking God every day for His Grace and mercy. He wouldn't have gone all over the world helping to lead others to Christ. He wouldn't have helped established the churches in Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, etc...If he had written anything, it would have only been, "Thank you Jesus for your grace." But we know that's not the case.

Works don't save, but once we are saved we have a desire to do God's service.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:41 am

That was my first thought too, but the scripture says WE are to lay up treasure, it does not not say treasure has been laid up for us. This seems to indicate that the responsibility is partially ours. How exactly do we lay up treasure? What if someone hasn't been as fruitful for the kingdom (deliberately, due to a less than Christian attitude)as someone who has devoted their life to glorifying Christ and witnessing? True, salvation is salvation, but what are we going to be doing in Heaven anyway? Are there different levels of service?
As I said, I am studying this. My pastor gave me more than one scripture to support this notion, I won't rule it out simply because of my preconceived notions.

Is. 28:10 " For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" This is the way I am going to approach this...

Are you saying that in a place of ultimate happiness, I can be more happy?
In a place with no envy, I can be less envious?
In a place with no hatred, I can harbor less hate?
In a place with no sin, I can be less sinful?
In a place where I will want for nothing, I can have more?

Reeder

October 2nd, 2009, 10:44 am

Well....what was his answer?

That his Apostle was Paul.

Reeder

October 2nd, 2009, 10:45 am

Straight forward, perhaps. Doesn't make it an answer I'm going to subscribe to.Me neither. But at least he doesn't dance around the question. I gotta give him that much.

Reeder

October 2nd, 2009, 10:46 am

Let's see if I can get it correct.

James was only talking to Jews.
Paul was only talking to Gentiles.
EVERYONE, wheter they think they are Jew or Gentile, are all Gentiles.
Therefore, Paul's words are the only ones that count now.Pretty much.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 10:48 am

My kids used to argue about which one was the favorite son. It was immature and juvenile of them then.
Nothing is different when God's children do it.

You can't mean to say that God loves Abe and myself with equal fervency.

That's just crazy talk. :rolleyes:

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 10:51 am

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:53 am

that his apostle was paul.

:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

CID_0687

October 2nd, 2009, 10:53 am

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 10:54 am

There's that nasty "work" word again. :sick:

Silly Pentecostal.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:54 am

You can't mean to say that God loves Abe and myself with equal fervency.

That's just crazy talk. :rolleyes:

I'm funny that way.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 10:54 am

I'm funny that way.

You are indeed. ;)

optrader

October 2nd, 2009, 10:56 am

Are you saying that in a place of ultimate happiness, I can be more happy?
In a place with no envy, I can be less envious?
In a place with no hatred, I can harbor less hate?
In a place with no sin, I can be less sinful?
In a place where I will want for nothing, I can have more?

If we die as sinners and yet there will be no sin in Heaven, something must change our nature after we die. The things you list are from our human perspective. I tend to think we will have an entirely different perspective in Heaven. Different levels of service may no longer invoke sinful emotions or actions.

These are questions I myself would like to have answers to. I take it for granted this position wasn't plucked from thin air, however, this doesn't mean it is correct. I am trying to reconcile the beliefs of my newly adopted Baptist Church with the beliefs of my former SDA Church. Perhaps brother cbut could offer insight here...

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 10:58 am

I gotta go with Jesus rather than you on this one Koushi. He seems to think there are various rewards.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Without greed or envy, it won't matter. I won't care what anyone else gets for I shall be completly happy with whatever I get.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:00 am

If we die as sinners and yet there will be no sin in Heaven, something must change our nature after we die. The things you list are from our human perspective.

As is the idea that we are in some sort of competition here on earth to earn rewards and crowns and treasures and jewels in Heaven.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 11:01 am

Without greed or envy, it won't matter. I won't care what anyone else gets for I shall be completly happy with whatever I get.

I didn't see Jesus talking about our feelings, just what he would be doing. If you don't want to hear "well down, thou good and faithful servant," that is totally your business. If you have been a good and faithful servant you will be rewarded.

To think you can dispute God on this score is silly and quite possibly a manifestation of false humility.

Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

terri910

October 2nd, 2009, 11:03 am

If we die as sinners and yet there will be no sin in Heaven, something must change our nature after we die.
Interesting. :think:

It could even be something that......purges our sins....

What a concept.

:D

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:08 am

I didn't see Jesus talking about our feelings, just what he would be doing. If you don't want to hear "well down,

Jesus is going to throw me down a well? Strange. But if that well is in Heaven, I'll still be just as happy there as anywhere else.

thou good and faithful servant," that is totally your business. If you have been a good and faithful servant you will be rewarded.

To think you can dispute God on this score is silly and quite possibly a manifestation of false humility.

Perhaps.

But I'm not thinking about humilty. Just trying to reason it out. If my total reward consists of God saying to me "good job", and your reward is you get to sit between God and Jesus at the table, and we are in a place of total peace, happiness, and contentment, it simply won't matter that you got a 'better' reward than I did. I'll still be just as happy as you are.

And if everyone is completly satisfied with their reward, then can there be such a thing as a 'better' reward or 'more' treasures? I'm not seeing it.

optrader

October 2nd, 2009, 11:10 am

As is the idea that we are in some sort of competition here on earth to earn rewards and crowns and treasures and jewels in Heaven.

We know there will be a heirarchy in the kingdom. Are we to be as high as the angels? what about the 24 elders mentioned in Revelation, that are sitting in the very throne room of God? If there is a heirarchy then differences in levels of service must exist. How are these different levels of service to be determined among we saved humans? If this is where works come into play, what is wrong with me taking a position on earth that I would like to receive the highest level of service in Heaven? ( for example, heck with brother koushi, if he doesn't care what he will be doing in the kingdom, he can be the kingdoms garbage man :)))

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:10 am

Interesting. :think:

It could even be something that......purges our sins....

What a concept.

:D

God should make a place where one's soul could go to do that.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:12 am

( for example, heck with brother koushi, if he doesn't care what he will be doing in the kingdom, he can be the kingdoms garbage man :)))

In a place where the garbage man is just as happy and fulfilled as the one who holds the highest stature, why not?

If this is where works come into play, what is wrong with me taking a position on earth that I would like to receive the highest level of service in Heaven?

Because it smacks of selfishness and self-interests. Two things that I cannot see existing in Heaven. Nor do I see them as beneficial to spreading God's word here on Earth.

optrader

October 2nd, 2009, 11:13 am

Interesting. :think:

It could even be something that......purges our sins....

What a concept.

:D

Indeed! But as a SDA, I believed this change of character was done entirely by choice.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 11:15 am

Jesus is going to throw me down a well? Strange. But if that well is in Heaven, I'll still be just as happy there as anywhere else.

Perhaps.

But I'm not thinking about humilty. Just trying to reason it out. If my total reward consists of God saying to me "good job", and your reward is you get to sit between God and Jesus at the table, and we are in a place of total peace, happiness, and contentment, it simply won't matter that you got a 'better' reward than I did. I'll still be just as happy as you are.

And if everyone is completly satisfied with their reward, then can there be such a thing as a 'better' reward or 'more' treasures? I'm not seeing it.

My viewpoint is that the reward is somehow tied to how much I have pleased God through the life I live here on earth. I am not thinking at all in terms of "oh boy, I will get a bigger reward than so and so," or "oh snap, I will get a smaller reward."

I simply want to please God. He is the one who rewards. You seem to be turning your nose up at his decision to let us know that there are eternal rewards to be gained. The fact that I don't see just what those rewards may be means pretty much nothing.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:17 am

My viewpoint is that the reward is somehow tied to how much I have pleased God through the life I live here on earth. I am not thinking at all in terms of "oh boy, I will get a bigger reward than so and so," or "oh snap, I will get a smaller reward.

I simply want to please God. He is the one who rewards. You seem to be turning your nose up at his decision to let us know that there are eternal rewards to be gained. The fact that I don't see just what those rewards may be means pretty much nothing.

Then answer me this:
If everyone is completly satisfied with their reward, then can there be such a thing as a 'better' reward or 'more' treasures?

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 11:21 am

Then answer me this:
If everyone is completly satisfied with their reward, then can there be such a thing as a 'better' reward or 'more' treasures?

You would need to ask someone who uses those phrases rather than me. I don't remember saying anything along those lines. Just that Jesus seems to feel there are different rewards which will be given out. If you don't like that, argue with Him about it.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:25 am

You would need to ask someone who uses those phrases rather than me. I don't remember saying anything along those lines. Just that Jesus seems to feel there are different rewards which will be given out. If you don't like that, argue with Him about it.

Nope. I have no problem with different rewards. Just with the fully human idea that any one reward would be better than another.

For example, the earlier reference to garbage man. As if that would be some sort of menial task or a horrible existence in Heaven. For if we are saying that one would resent that position in Heaven, then we would have to allow that there can be envy, resentment and greed in Heaven.

CID_0687

October 2nd, 2009, 11:26 am

We know there will be a heirarchy in the kingdom. Are we to be as high as the angels? what about the 24 elders mentioned in Revelation, that are sitting in the very throne room of God? If there is a heirarchy then differences in levels of service must exist. How are these different levels of service to be determined among we saved humans? If this is where works come into play, what is wrong with me taking a position on earth that I would like to receive the highest level of service in Heaven? ( for example, heck with brother koushi, if he doesn't care what he will be doing in the kingdom, he can be the kingdoms garbage man :)))
A couple years back, the Mrs. and I were potty training our twins...every time they would go use the potty we'd give them an M&M or a Gummy Bear...something to reward them for doing good. It helped them to learn going in the potty was good, going in the diaper was bad. And eventually they started going in the potty all the time, and not thinking of the reward, because they just knew that it was the right thing to do.

Too many Christians are hung up on the reward...I can't say that I never have been...I love the thought of one day being able to run up to Jesus, give him a hug, and tell him "thank you" for everything he's done for me. But that's not what keeps me going..that's not why when I see someone in need that I lend a hand...I do it because it's the right thing to do...I do it because I know that if I was in a bad way I would hope someone would do the same for me.

When we do something only thinking of the prize, that's pretty selfish IMHO...we should do it simply because it's what Jesus said for us to do...love God, and love our fellow man...After that everything takes care of itself.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 11:31 am

Nope. I have no problem with different rewards. Just with the fully human idea that any one reward would be better than another.

For example, the earlier reference to garbage man. As if that would be some sort of menial task or a horrible existence in Heaven. For if we are saying that one would resent that position in Heaven, then we would have to allow that there can be envy, resentment and greed in Heaven.

I should probably throw out a reminder that I don't believe Heaven is our eternal abode.

I plan on going to sleep someday and not waking up until the Resurrection, then spending eternity with Jesus in the New Jerusalem here on a refurbished earth.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:31 am

A couple years back, the Mrs. and I were potty training our twins...every time they would go use the potty we'd give them an M&M or a Gummy Bear...something to reward them for doing good. It helped them to learn going in the potty was good, going in the diaper was bad. And eventually they started going in the potty all the time, and not thinking of the reward, because they just knew that it was the right thing to do.

Too many Christians are hung up on the reward...I can't say that I never have been...I love the thought of one day being able to run up to Jesus, give him a hug, and tell him "thank you" for everything he's done for me. But that's not what keeps me going..that's not why when I see someone in need that I lend a hand...I do it because it's the right thing to do...I do it because I know that if I was in a bad way I would hope someone would do the same for me.

When we do something only thinking of the prize, that's pretty selfish IMHO...we should do it simply because it's what Jesus said for us to do...love God, and love our fellow man...After that everything takes care of itself.

Funny thing. When I do the right thing, or help someone else, I get a really good feeling inside. If that is all the reward there is for doing good, I'm fine with that.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:32 am

I should probably throw out a reminder that I don't believe Heaven is our eternal abode.

I plan on going to sleep someday and not waking up until the Resurrection, then spending eternity with Jesus in the New Jerusalem here on a refurbished earth.

Fair enough. Will there be any ill will, greed, envy, resentment, negative feelings, or sin in the New Jerusalem on this refurbished Earth?

HeyJude

October 2nd, 2009, 11:32 am

Interesting. :think:

It could even be something that......purges our sins....

What a concept.

:D

Preach it! :D

CID_0687

October 2nd, 2009, 11:34 am

Funny thing. When I do the right thing, or help someone else, I get a really good feeling inside. If that is all the reward there is for doing good, I'm fine with that.
I can't argue with that.

CID_0687

October 2nd, 2009, 11:36 am

I should probably throw out a reminder that I don't believe Heaven is our eternal abode.

I plan on going to sleep someday and not waking up until the Resurrection, then spending eternity with Jesus in the New Jerusalem here on a refurbished earth.
I've been thinking....Wonder if God will wake us up and let us all sit in front of a big fat 1000 inch plasma HDTV, and watch Extreme Makeover: Earth Edition?

I'm thinking that would be pretty sweet...

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:37 am

I've been thinking....Wonder if God will wake us up and let us all sit in front of a big fat 1000 inch plasma HDTV, and watch Extreme Makeover: Earth Edition?

I'm thinking that would be pretty sweet...

Meh. Demo it and move on. I'll bet the Vogons aren't busy....

HeyJude

October 2nd, 2009, 11:40 am

I should probably throw out a reminder that I don't believe Heaven is our eternal abode.

I plan on going to sleep someday and not waking up until the Resurrection, then spending eternity with Jesus in the New Jerusalem here on a refurbished earth.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Your spirit will be with the Lord at the moment of death of the body.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:41 am

Good luck with that argument.

optrader

October 2nd, 2009, 11:42 am

A couple years back, the Mrs. and I were potty training our twins...every time they would go use the potty we'd give them an M&M or a Gummy Bear...something to reward them for doing good. It helped them to learn going in the potty was good, going in the diaper was bad. And eventually they started going in the potty all the time, and not thinking of the reward, because they just knew that it was the right thing to do.

Too many Christians are hung up on the reward...I can't say that I never have been...I love the thought of one day being able to run up to Jesus, give him a hug, and tell him "thank you" for everything he's done for me. But that's not what keeps me going..that's not why when I see someone in need that I lend a hand...I do it because it's the right thing to do...I do it because I know that if I was in a bad way I would hope someone would do the same for me.

When we do something only thinking of the prize, that's pretty selfish IMHO...we should do it simply because it's what Jesus said for us to do...love God, and love our fellow man...After that everything takes care of itself.

Very true. I do not do "good" with the thought my reward will be better. I am, however, aware that scripture is clear that there is a difference in rewards. There has been some mention of our human emotions here such as envy, happiness, etc. I said our perspective in the kingdom will be different, thus koushi the garbage man will indeed be as content as anyone else. But if we are going to try and conceive as our nature and emotions in the kingdom as the same as on earth, my earthly nature then likewise desires a greater reward. I don't know exactly what heaven will be like, no one does, but I do know it's fun to poke fun of Koushi! :dance:

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 11:44 am

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Your spirit will be with the Lord at the moment of death of the body.

Whilst I sleep in Jesus until the Resurrection.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 11:45 am

Good luck with that argument.

Hermano. You know me only too well. :dance:

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:47 am

But if we are going to try and conceive as our nature and emotions in the kingdom as the same as on earth, my earthly nature then likewise desires a greater reward.

Folly.

I don't know exactly what heaven will be like, no one does, but I do know it's fun to poke fun of Koushi! :dance:

:cool: Back at'cha.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 11:47 am

Hermano. You know me only too well. :dance:

:cool:

adroit

October 2nd, 2009, 11:53 am

Neither.

Semi-Sweet

October 2nd, 2009, 11:54 am

I gotta go with Jesus rather than you on this one Koushi. He seems to think there are various rewards.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Mat 6:5 "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."

I thought that Rev 22 verse was speaking of the reward of eternal life or the reward of eternal death as the 'reward.' The reward in the Matthew vs would not be the reward of eternal life but the reward of eternal death, given according to works, but evil works.

2 Timothy 4:14 "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil; the Lord reward him according to his works."

In 2 Timothy 4:6 the apostle Paul says, "I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand," which is a reference to his own death. He goes on to refer to "the crown of righteousness", that will be given him, but he acknowledges that such a crown is for all the faithful. The crown of life bestowed by the Lord will never fade.

CID_0687

October 2nd, 2009, 11:54 am

Neither.
I can go into threads that don't pertain to what I believe or don't and make useless statements too.

:hug:

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 11:57 am

Mat 6:5 "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."

I thought that Rev 22 verse was speaking of the reward of eternal life or the reward of eternal death as the 'reward.' The reward in the Matthew vs would not be the reward of eternal life but the reward of eternal death, given according to works, but evil works.

2 Timothy 4:14 "Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil; the Lord reward him according to his works."

In 2 Timothy 4:6 the apostle Paul says, "I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand," which is a reference to his own death. He goes on to refer to "the crown of righteousness", that will be given him, but he acknowledges that such a crown is for all the faithful. The crown of life bestowed by the Lord will never fade.

Wow. Paul and James agree on something...how did that happen? ;)

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

adroit

October 2nd, 2009, 11:59 am

I can go into threads that don't pertain to what I believe or don't and make useless statements too.

:hug:

If it's answering the question, how is it useless? If anything, it prompted a response from you and I find that useful :)

Btw, salvation does pertain to what I believe.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 11:59 am

I can go into threads that don't pertain to what I believe or don't and make useless statements too.

:hug:

True. I've seen you do it.

You do tend to try and make some sort of effort towards what I like to call "communication," as opposed to our "neither" friend.

HeyJude

October 2nd, 2009, 12:22 pm

Whilst I sleep in Jesus until the Resurrection.

Oh, so Heaven is this big empty place, for thousands of years, right?

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 12:25 pm

Oh, so Heaven is this big empty place, for thousands of years, right?

Heck no. They got more angels up there than you can shake a stick at.

Assuming that's your idea of a good time. ;)

HeyJude

October 2nd, 2009, 12:27 pm

Oh, so Heaven is this big empty place, for thousands of years, right?

And with that post, I became an "Honored Guest". :clap: :clap:

(it wasn't a goal, but still kinda nice.:) )

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 12:28 pm

And with that post, I became an "Honored Guest". :clap: :clap:

(it wasn't a goal, but still kinda nice.:) )

Congrats!

HeyJude

October 2nd, 2009, 12:32 pm

Congrats!

Thanks. :D

So, where are you while you are asleep with Jesus? And where is the thief who went to paradise? Is he asleep too?

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 12:39 pm

Thanks. :D

So, where are you while you are asleep with Jesus? And where is the thief who went to paradise? Is he asleep too?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (breath of life) shall return unto God who gave it.

I believe as you said earlier, that the spirit returns to God. I just don't believe that the spirit is me walking, or wafting, around Heaven without a body.

Biblically speaking it takes God putting a spirit together with a body to make a living being.

No body. No life.

Resurrection gets here, God puts my spirit which he has received unto himself at my death, into an immortal body and I live with Jesus forever here on the New Earth.

Thief? Sleeping like a baby.

beaker

October 2nd, 2009, 1:04 pm

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (breath of life) shall return unto God who gave it.

I believe as you said earlier, that the spirit returns to God. I just don't believe that the spirit is me walking, or wafting, around Heaven without a body.

Biblically speaking it takes God putting a spirit together with a body to make a living being.

No body. No life.

Resurrection gets here, God puts my spirit which he has received unto himself at my death, into an immortal body and I live with Jesus forever here on the New Earth.

Thief? Sleeping like a baby.

If that is the case, It will be a wonderfully refreshing nap.:dance:

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 1:05 pm

If that is the case, It will be a wonderfully refreshing nap.:dance:

It surely will. I could use the rest.

beaker

October 2nd, 2009, 1:09 pm

It surely will. I could use the rest.

I have oftened wonder what the word is in Greek that those scripture passages refer to going to "sleep" in Christ.

Of course you know the Baptist position is, "sleep"="physical death," not really sleeping.

Can you help me with that?

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 2:19 pm

Heck no. They got more angels up there than you can shake a stick at.

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/charlies_angels.jpg

Assuming that's your idea of a good time. ;)

It is. :drool:

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 2:20 pm

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/charlies_angels.jpg

It is. :drool:

You make three most excellent points sir.

And don't try and double the math. This is a Pg-13 forum.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 2:21 pm

I have oftened wonder what the word is in Greek that those scripture passages refer to going to "sleep" in Christ.

Of course you know the Baptist position is, "sleep"="physical death," not really sleeping.

Can you help me with that?

Check pm's.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 2:23 pm

You make three most excellent points sir.

And don't try and double the math. This is a Pg-13 forum.

That, my friend sounds like a challenge.

And as it is a worthy challenge, it should not go unanswered...

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/charlies.jpg

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 2:25 pm

That, my friend sounds like a challenge.

And as it is a worthy challenge, it should not go unanswered...

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/charlies.jpg

Hooah!

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 2:27 pm

:cool:

CID_0687

October 2nd, 2009, 2:29 pm

That, my friend sounds like a challenge.

And as it is a worthy challenge, it should not go unanswered...

http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/charlies.jpg
Oh my my my...:drool:

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 2:31 pm

Oh my my my...:drool:

Ditto.

gpd®

October 2nd, 2009, 3:18 pm

Byz and his freakin' angel threads.

Koushi Shinigami

October 2nd, 2009, 3:20 pm

You love it.

optrader

October 2nd, 2009, 3:25 pm

Thanks. :D

So, where are you while you are asleep with Jesus? And where is the thief who went to paradise? Is he asleep too?

Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

See what happens if you move that little comma over to the right of the word "today."

John 20:17 " Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. "

Makes it difficult for the thief to be with Jesus in paradise today, if Jesus hasn't been there yet, remember, in John, 3 days have passed, He has just arisen...

gpd®

October 2nd, 2009, 3:27 pm

Drew and her lisp are hawt!

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 3:27 pm

Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

See what happens if you move that little comma over to the right of the word "today."

John 20:17 " Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. "

Makes it difficult for the thief to be with Jesus in paradise today, if Jesus hasn't been there yet, remember, in John, 3 days have passed, He has just arisen...

Oh, you and your pesky attention to detail. :cool:

beaker

October 2nd, 2009, 4:15 pm

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 4:19 pm

So where is the comma suppose to be? I have seen it both ways.

Did they have punctuation marks in Greek?

Nope. Capitol letters one right up next to another. No punctuation, no spaces between words.

Here is a facsimile from the Codex Vaticanus.

beaker

October 2nd, 2009, 4:30 pm

Nope. Capitol letters one right up next to another. No punctuation, no spaces between words.

Here is a facsimile from the Codex Vaticanus.

You know sometimes I think God has a really huge sense of humor. Something as small and simple as a comma, can cause us to spends years debating over doctrine.:)

A wish things like this were a lot clearer.

RayMan

October 2nd, 2009, 4:35 pm

You know sometimes I think God has a really huge sense of humor. Something as small and simple as a comma, can cause us to spends years debating over doctrine.:)

A wish things like this were a lot clearer.

John 9 is the same way.

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

OR

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him,

Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

With the period Jesus seems to be saying the blindness was the work of God.

With the comma he is telling them that by healing the man he will be doing the work of God.

I go with number 2, since it fits both the context of the passage and the nature of Jesus.

There is neither a period nor a comma in the Greek. Neither are there any verse breaks.