This is insane: State orders Middleville mom to stop watching friends' children

[Ballygrl]

The State is insane, if anything, this woman is keeping these kids safe by watching them for up to an hour every morning before they go to school! :evil:

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2009/09/state_orders_middleville_mom_t.html

State orders Middleville mom to stop watching friends' children

By Kalamazoo Gazette staff
September 25, 2009, 9:05PM

By Julie Makarewicz

MIDDLEVILLE — A mother who helps neighbors in the morning by watching their children for a short time before the bus comes has been told she’s breaking the law.

Lisa Snyder’s house is by the corner bus stop on Thornbird Drive just outside Middleville. Two of her friends who need to leave for work bring their children to her home in the morning before the bus arrives to take them to Thornapple Kellogg schools.

Snyder said she doesn’t think she’s doing anything wrong, but she was notified by the Michigan Department of Human Services that she has to stop watching the children because her home is not a licensed day-care facility.

Snyder said she’s not charging her friends money to watch the children. She said she watches the 5-year-old and 7-year-old from two families for less than an hour.

“It’s crazy. I’m just helping out a couple of friends,” said Snyder.

Snyder said she thinks that DHS was notified by a neighbor who thought Snyder was running a day-care facility. She said she tried to explain her situation to the DHS worker who sent her a letter, but the woman didn’t want to hear it.

State Rep. Brian Calley, R-Portland, was so outraged when he heard DHS was involved that he proposed legislation to exempt families from state day-care rules when they are caring for friends’ children.

“I actually had a hard time believing this outrageous case until I called DHS, and they not only confirmed it but refused to reconsider when I explained the situation,” Calley said in a news release.

The children’s parents must leave for work in the morning before the school bus arrives so the Middleville family agreed to watch the children for a short period of time each day until they got on the bus. Under current state law, Public Act 116, Michigan homes must be licensed if the residents watch children who are not related on an ongoing basis, no matter the duration.

“This is a shocking case of government bureaucracy run amok,” Calley said. “At a time when the state is being forced to cut health-care programs and services to children, it’s outrageous that the state has decided to pursue an issue like illegal baby-sitting.”

Gazette staff writer Julie Mack contributed to this report.

[hremom]

That is craziness! Another example of the "state" keeping us "safe" by costing
families more hard earned cash!

[Dual867PowerMac]

Isn't the nanny state wonderful?

[Gabby]

good grief! An example of people misinterpreting laws and regulations.

So if neighbor kids come over regularly to play with your kids, does the same nonsense apply?

It is most likely that some neighbor called and made a big deal out of her having children over in the morning. IMHO, the neigbor is way out of line. What ever happened to neighbors talking to each other and finding out what is going on?

What a crock.

[Drawz]

Proposed legislation is necessary to re-legalize baby-sitting. Good grief.

[gdoane]

I'd turn in the bus driver. The bus has the kids for about the same amount of time and that's not a licensed day care either.

[sgtmac_46]

Maybe Michigan DHS will actually get hammered by the legislator and government power will be rolled back......don't hold your breath though.

[psyko kat]

I guess that DHS would rather have the kids (heaven forbid) to be snatched by some pervert, then charge the parents with neglect...

[Ballygrl]

I'd turn in the bus driver. The bus has the kids for about the same amount of time and that's not a licensed day care either.

:))

[Ballygrl]

I guess that DHS would rather have the kids (heaven forbid) to be snatched by some pervert, then charge the parents with neglect...

I thought that too, wouldn't the Parents be charged with neglect if they left them alone for an hour every morning?

[scottycaptain]

What about all the kids at Acorn offices? I heard them in the background. Are they licenced day care workers?

[psyko kat]

I thought that too, wouldn't the Parents be charged with neglect if they left them alone for an hour every morning?

that's my thoughts,/ I'd rather have someone watch them...

[sgtmac_46]

I know what i'd do........i'd legally adopt the two adult parents of the children I was watching, and then send a letter to DSH telling them that we are all NOW related and they can KINDLY go **** themselves. :)

[handle]

Just another freedom being stripped from the people.
I mean seriously... the DHS got involved!!! But, those yahoo's said that veterans are potential terrorists so it's not surprising.

Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
--Thomas Paine
Common Sense
1776

[LouC]

I would not at all be surprised to find this law was enacted to "fix" a perceived problem with "in home" day care after some "unique" incident, in the typical knee jerk manner so many laws like this are put on the books.

[JenyEliza]

That's My President's Hopey-Changey stuff in action! You Go Mr. President!

Keep on working hard until we all be owned by you! :dance:

[Drawz]

That's My President's Hopey-Changey stuff in action! You Go Mr. President!

Keep on working hard until we all be owned by you! :dance:

Yeah, this happened beacause Obama is president...

[Stuball]

Yeah, this happened beacause Obama is president...
Obama got elected President of Tennessee

[gdoane]

I would not at all be surprised to find this law was enacted to "fix" a perceived problem with "in home" day care after some "unique" incident, in the typical knee jerk manner so many laws like this are put on the books.

Well, you wouldn't want certain people to be in the biz, after all.

*ADVERT*

FREE DAY CARE! FREE DAY CARE!!!

You read it right, FREE FREE FREE Daycare! Our caring providers here at R.S.O. Daycare will give your child individual attention and one-on-one lesson plans especially designed by our select group of children loving staff!

(R.S.O. is a subsidiary of Registered Sex Offenders, LLC. RSO and "We love your kids too" TM R.S.O. Enterprises)

*/ADVERT*

I'd think SOME oversight might be warranted for obvious reasons...

[sgtmac_46]

Obama got elected President of Tennessee

Of course this happened in Michigan.......

[sgtmac_46]

Well, you wouldn't want certain people to be in the biz, after all.

*ADVERT*

FREE DAY CARE! FREE DAY CARE!!!

You read it right, FREE FREE FREE Daycare! Our caring providers here at R.S.O. Daycare will give your child individual attention and one-on-one lesson plans especially designed by our select group of children loving staff!

(R.S.O. is a subsidiary of Registered Sex Offenders, LLC. RSO and "We love your kids too" TM R.S.O. Enterprises)

*/ADVERT*

I'd think SOME oversight might be warranted for obvious reasons...

'Some' oversight of course........but your example would be solved solely by the enforcing of laws that prevent RSO's from being around ALL children, not just at the Day Care center....so a whole separate bureaucracy would be pointless.

[LouC]

Well, you wouldn't want certain people to be in the biz, after all.

*ADVERT*

FREE DAY CARE! FREE DAY CARE!!!

You read it right, FREE FREE FREE Daycare! Our caring providers here at R.S.O. Daycare will give your child individual attention and one-on-one lesson plans especially designed by our select group of children loving staff!

(R.S.O. is a subsidiary of Registered Sex Offenders, LLC. RSO and "We love your kids too" TM R.S.O. Enterprises)

*/ADVERT*

I'd think SOME oversight might be warranted for obvious reasons...

She wasn't operating a business, she was helping friends, the parents who were allowing their kids to be at her house have the responsibility of oversight.

[gdoane]

'Some' oversight of course........but your example would be solved solely by the enforcing of laws that prevent RSO's from being around ALL children, not just at the Day Care center....so a whole separate bureaucracy would be pointless.

We just had a SPECTACULAR failure of a registered sex offender enforcement with Phillip Garrido keeping Jaycee Lee Dugard captive for 18 years WHILE ON PROBATION.

I personally do not like being around kids, at all. Adults are plenty annoying enough and I still wind up around kids through no choice of my own even actively trying to avoid the small life forms. Still, I wind up in situations around the kneebiters, either because some idiot thought a school would be a good election polling place (nevermind the fact that 90% of the people on campus are too young to vote) or because some holiday like Halloween comes around and the parents take them door to door for some free candy. I'm the house that does Tootsie Rolls. I'm not going to go for full-fledged chocolate but I'm not going to suck so bad as to be giving out Starlight Mints either. I don't hate kids, I just don't like 'em.

If there's a person who is deemed, by the courts, by the authorities, and by common sense to be too dangerous to be around children then what in the name of the Wide Wide World of Sports is that bastard doing on the streets? *I* can't avoid being around kids even though I would DEARLY love to do so as a Zero Population Growth advocate and a very impatient, grumpy kind of guy who makes the Grinch look like a Social Worker.

If these people can't be around children then they can't be on the streets, bottom line. Probation doesn't work. Enforcement doesn't work. Once these villains have been identified, catch and release is not the answer. Sex offender registries don't work. Programs that rely on the bad guys to self-report are unbelievably stupid.

Some people are simply too dangerous to be set free on the street. Child predators are among those people. The justice system has a duty and obligation to protect the citizenry from such predators and when identified predators are cut loose on the streets, the system has failed a primary duty.

A dog catcher wouldn't turn a vicious animal loose on the streets again. Why shouldn't the same level of professionalism be expected from our Judges?

[JediMindTrick]

I would not at all be surprised to find this law was enacted to "fix" a perceived problem with "in home" day care after some "unique" incident, in the typical knee jerk manner so many laws like this are put on the books.

Your almost certainly right.

My city recently passed such ordinances after two high profile infant deaths at vastly overcrowded day cares where one person was watching as many as 30 kids. Likely some incident caused the legislators in this case to pass such an ordinance as well but sometimes the best intentions go to far.

[gdoane]

She wasn't operating a business, she was helping friends, the parents who were allowing their kids to be at her house have the responsibility of oversight.

Okay, let's wipe the slate.

You see neighbor kids going into a house every day, what do you think about it?

Forget about the facts of this case, just think about witnessing kids going into the house of a single person every day.

Doesn't that raise a LITTLE bit of concern?

The parents aren't there. The "caregiver" is living in a single household, capable of hiding any number of secrets. The concern is real, because trust is an earned thing, not a given thing. Had there been a couple in the house, especially a couple with kids the edge of the suspicion might be dulled but you really have to wonder about people who live alone. And I'm not saying that out of some kind of prejudice, I've lived alone for the past 18 years and I'd still say that people who live alone are scary.

[Drawz]

Gene doesn't like little kids... color me stunned. :) Do you have any nieces or nephews? Little kids can be quite good company.

[Stuball]

Of course this happened in Michigan.......
That Jet win made think of Tennessee

[Drawz]

That Jet win made think of Tennessee

What was going on with the Titans wearing Oilers uniforms and the Jets wearing anonymous black and gold? I was afraid I was having some sort of delusional breakdown.

[Gabby]

Okay, let's wipe the slate.

You see neighbor kids going into a house every day, what do you think about it?

Forget about the facts of this case, just think about witnessing kids going into the house of a single person every day.

Doesn't that raise a LITTLE bit of concern?

The parents aren't there. The "caregiver" is living in a single household, capable of hiding any number of secrets. The concern is real, because trust is an earned thing, not a given thing. Had there been a couple in the house, especially a couple with kids the edge of the suspicion might be dulled but you really have to wonder about people who live alone. And I'm not saying that out of some kind of prejudice, I've lived alone for the past 18 years and I'd still say that people who live alone are scary.

People who live alone are scary? You have got to be kidding me???

I lived alone for years while going college and until I got married. While living alone the neighbor kids used to visit me all the time. I knew their mothers of course. Sometimes the moms and kids would visit. But it was not unusual of the kids to be outside playing and them to knock on my door and ask to come in. i think they found me and my place interesting since I have lived all over the world and have interesting/exotic things in my house. they were always asking me questions about the places I've been.

My mom lived alone too for years after my dad died. She always had kids who would visit her.

In the case this thread is about... the parents allowed their children to go to this house. I'll bet that most days they brought the kids to the house.

[Stuball]

What was going on with the Titans wearing Oilers uniforms and the Jets wearing anonymous black and gold? I was afraid I was having some sort of delusional breakdown.
Throwback weekend
The first 2 years in the old AFL The Jets were known as The Titans and the current Titans used to be The Houston Oilers

[Ballygrl]

That Jet win made think of Tennessee

The Giants won too Stu! and the Yankees clinched! :dance:

[Gabby]

Okay, let's wipe the slate.

You see neighbor kids going into a house every day, what do you think about it?

Forget about the facts of this case, just think about witnessing kids going into the house of a single person every day.

Doesn't that raise a LITTLE bit of concern?

....

You talk to the parents and find out that the person is being a good friend helping you out.

[Drawz]

Throwback weekend
The first 2 years in the old AFL The Jets were known as The Titans and the current Titans used to be The Houston Oilers

Ah, I figured it must be something like that but boy was I confused for a while.

[Ballygrl]

You talk to the parents and find out that the person is being a good friend helping you out.

Exactly, who wouldn't do that? I know I would if a Parent had to get to work early in the morning and needed to place their kids in a safe environment for a short period of time.

[Mimiheart]

There's been a kid who isn't mine in my house for almost two days... I don't even know his last name. He's here pretty much every weekend. Is that regular day care? :rolleyes:

[ScottFree]

The State is insane, if anything, this woman is keeping these kids safe by watching them for up to an hour every morning before they go to school! :evil:


What happens every single time a government bureaucracy with good intentions is set in motion? Crap like this!!!! :wall:


"The nine most terrifying words in the English Language are: I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan

[Ballygrl]

What happens every single time a government bureaucracy with good intentions is set in motion? Crap like this!!!! :wall:

"The nine most terrifying words in the English Language are: I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

Ronald Reagan

It seems like we've lost all common sense.

[gdoane]

Gene doesn't like little kids... color me stunned. :) Do you have any nieces or nephews? Little kids can be quite good company.

Yes, I have nieces and nephews. The last time my nephew was here, he took one look at my floor to ceiling CD racks and realized he was looking at about 2,000 video games. After he fell on his ass, he declared he wanted to live here. Not happening.

Little kids are annoying. Even schools send them home. When teachers go on strike, parents never act happy about the extra family time. Little kids are like salt. Okay in small sprinkles but too much can ruin the whole meal.

The entire adult world is based on how to get the Hell away from kids. Whether it's bars or casinos that lock them out, or schools and daycare that cage them up, adults want to get away from kids. Age limits are on everything, from voting to jury duty to running for public office because adults want kids OUT OF THEIR LIVES.

I didn't like kids even when I was one. Immaturity is never welcome.

[Drawz]

There's been a kid who isn't mine in my house for almost two days... I don't even know his last name. He's here pretty much every weekend. Is that regular day care? :rolleyes:

No, that's kidnapping. :)
I'm calling the Law and Order guys on you!

[ScottFree]

Okay, let's wipe the slate.

You see neighbor kids going into a house every day, what do you think about it?

Forget about the facts of this case, just think about witnessing kids going into the house of a single person every day.

Doesn't that raise a LITTLE bit of concern?




Lets see. I am adult with no school children of my own, and I witness these kids are leaving their own home and walking over to the neighbor's house every day? I'm thinking little Johnny's mom must make something real good for breakfast! Of course being the thinking man I am, I have already put two and two together, seeing as I have also witnessed that the bus stops in front of that very same house everyday, and all the kids I saw going in that house earlier come out and get on the bus. Sorry Gene, I personally would have no cause for alarm, unless I witnessed something more that would raise my suspicions.... Like loud screaming, fresh dirt piles in the back yard, funny odors, and such.

[Mimiheart]

No, that's kidnapping. :)
I'm calling the Law and Order guys on you!
It's kidnapping? Crap. :eek: I don't even WANT him here. He shows up every Saturday morning and I have to send him home by dinner... then Sunday morning he's right back over here. Sometimes my son goes over to his house, but it's usually the other way around.

[ScottFree]

There's been a kid who isn't mine in my house for almost two days... I don't even know his last name. He's here pretty much every weekend. Is that regular day care? :rolleyes:
Are you sure that kid isn't yours? I had a teenager who spent so much time in his room that I forgot he was mine.

[FidelisAdMortem]

Here in NYS you can operate a daycare without a license if the children that are watched does not exceed a certain number, I believe its 2, however Im not sure.

There have been many cases where those who claim arent being paid and arent operating daycares are in fact doing such that. They popup all over the place especially in city urban areas b/c of the population and those that live so closely within the confined area of a urban city environment.

I have no idea if that is the case in the OP, however it could be or it could not be. Just another side to a story that could be the case that one might want to take into consideration.

[Mimiheart]

Are you sure that kid isn't yours? I had a teenager who spent so much time in his room that I forgot he was mine.
My kids are all blond. This kid has brown hair. Can't be mine.

[Stuball]

Yes, I have nieces and nephews. The last time my nephew was here, he took one look at my floor to ceiling CD racks and realized he was looking at about 2,000 video games. After he fell on his ass, he declared he wanted to live here. Not happening.

Little kids are annoying. Even schools send them home. When teachers go on strike, parents never act happy about the extra family time. Little kids are like salt. Okay in small sprinkles but too much can ruin the whole meal.

The entire adult world is based on how to get the Hell away from kids. Whether it's bars or casinos that lock them out, or schools and daycare that cage them up, adults want to get away from kids. Age limits are on everything, from voting to jury duty to running for public office because adults want kids OUT OF THEIR LIVES.

I didn't like kids even when I was one. Immaturity is never welcome.
Gene have you ever considered doing Stand Up Comedy?

[gdoane]

People who live alone are scary? You have got to be kidding me???


Jeffrey Dahmer lived alone. I'm saying that it's something to look at, and I'm pointing 4 fingers back at me because I'd be suspicious of a guy like me who liked kids. Suspicion isn't a bad thing. It's healthy. Blind trust is never healthy.

I lived alone for years while going college and until I got married. While living alone the neighbor kids used to visit me all the time. I knew their mothers of course. Sometimes the moms and kids would visit. But it was not unusual of the kids to be outside playing and them to knock on my door and ask to come in. i think they found me and my place interesting since I have lived all over the world and have interesting/exotic things in my house. they were always asking me questions about the places I've been.Even with all of that, your house wouldn't be all that interesting to a kid. You're living in a museum of sorts.

My house isn't like yours, mine looks more like the left aisle of Blockbuster Video and hundreds of video games which could be easily misinterpreted as a trap for luring children. If your kid likes video games, then you'd have to pry him kicking and screaming out of here and most people would consider my hobby a little bit weird to the point of I must have ulterior motives. I don't, I've been a hardcore videogamer since 1977 and never grew out of it, but the suspicion is something I need to avoid.


My mom lived alone too for years after my dad died. She always had kids who would visit her.We don't live in those times anymore.

Growing up in Wellington, Kansas I used to run errands to the store for Widow Morrison, our next door neighbor. She smoked and drank, and I was all of 7 years old but the grocery store had no problem loading up my bicycle baskets with cigarettes and beer for delivery to Widow Morrison. I'd pedal up the hill to the store and coast down the hill from the store, all for a glass of some lemonade and a dollar.

Yeah, I bought beer and cigarettes at the age of 7. I didn't even THINK of using them myself and the reason why was because in Wellington, Kansas, 1971 I was "Chuck's Boy", everybody knew me and knew my Dad and knew where I lived and my hopes of getting away with anything were between slim and none.

The dollar usually got wasted on Cracker Jacks and the Saturday Movie Show down at the Marquee. My parents were cool about that, I earned the dollar so it was mine and if I wanted to watch a movie with it, then I earned my movie.

We don't live in 1971 anymore. I wish Nixon were still our President and that everybody knows their neighbors and that kids could run errands but that world is gone. It was destroyed by slums and the welfare state and the transfer of trust from neighbors and family to government and programs.

I had a wonderful childhood. One that simply is not possible in America anymore. Widow Morrison wasn't a saint, but she'd be treated as a villain had she sent a 7-year-old forth for cigarettes and beer today.

[Samm]

The State is insane, if anything, this woman is keeping these kids safe by watching them for up to an hour every morning before they go to school! :evil:

She is not charging for the "service;" they have no jurisdiction over her. She should tell them to **** off.

[gdoane]

She is not charging for the "service;" they have no jurisdiction over her. She should tell them to **** off.

Defiance as a plan of action generally turns out badly. Opium Wars, US Civil War, evading taxes, you get the idea.

She's got a very good case if she stays in the system. If she digs in her heels and acts like she's got the case of right on her side, then she's screwing up.

A position of strength means nothing without humility. Tortoises can beat Hares after all.

[angelicmadrigal]

Oh good greif.... it's a freaking hour.

[gdoane]

Oh good greif.... it's a freaking hour.

A cowboy calls 8 seconds good.

[WorldWatcher]

A cowboy calls 8 seconds good.


I believe there are therapists that can help him last linger.



(I find that mental algebra helps.)


>>>>

[WorldWatcher]

>


As to the OP...


......................:wall::wall::wall:

[jimjames418]

Maybe Michigan DHS will actually get hammered by the legislator and government power will be rolled back......don't hold your breath though.
The state could help fix its current budget problems by cutting the DHS budget by about 50%, it is way over staffed. IMHO anyway.

[jimjames418]

Originally Posted by LouC http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=61676871#post61676871)
I would not at all be surprised to find this law was enacted to "fix" a perceived problem with "in home" day care after some "unique" incident, in the typical knee jerk manner so many laws like this are put on the books.

Your almost certainly right.

My city recently passed such ordinances after two high profile infant deaths at vastly overcrowded day cares where one person was watching as many as 30 kids. Likely some incident caused the legislators in this case to pass such an ordinance as well but sometimes the best intentions go to far.
This law was the result of pressure put on the legislative branch by the unions in the state. 99% of the licensed day care centers are union places, and they did not like the idea of people not paying their "fair share" to the union. :evil:

Hell, I worked at a school district where we provided before and after school care for elementary students, and we were sued by unions because we "provided a service that was available in the community" as their law suit said.

[Gabby]

Jeffrey Dahmer lived alone. I'm saying that it's something to look at, and I'm pointing 4 fingers back at me because I'd be suspicious of a guy like me who liked kids. Suspicion isn't a bad thing. It's healthy. Blind trust is never healthy.
......

Yea and the BTK killer lived with his wife and children.

This thread is about woman with children who watches the children of some friends for a couple of hours on school days.

[Gabby]

There's been a kid who isn't mine in my house for almost two days... I don't even know his last name. He's here pretty much every weekend. Is that regular day care? :rolleyes:

My kids always had friends coming over. Some would stay for several days. Of course when they were little their parents would check with me. By the time they were in high school the kids would just come and stay. the kids just liked it here... Sounds like you have a similar thing going on. Sometimes kids just need a break of whatever the stress is at their home.

[Hadassah]

Yes, I have nieces and nephews. The last time my nephew was here, he took one look at my floor to ceiling CD racks and realized he was looking at about 2,000 video games. After he fell on his ass, he declared he wanted to live here. Not happening.

Little kids are annoying. Even schools send them home. When teachers go on strike, parents never act happy about the extra family time. Little kids are like salt. Okay in small sprinkles but too much can ruin the whole meal.

The entire adult world is based on how to get the Hell away from kids. Whether it's bars or casinos that lock them out, or schools and daycare that cage them up, adults want to get away from kids. Age limits are on everything, from voting to jury duty to running for public office because adults want kids OUT OF THEIR LIVES.

I didn't like kids even when I was one. Immaturity is never welcome.


Guess I'm an abnormal parent then because I love it when school is out for the weekend and vacations. I love having my son around. And I willingly place myself around kids, being a pediatric nurse.



As for the OP: why the hell isn't DHS working on cases that matter and where children are really in trouble?!?! :wall:

[gdoane]

Guess I'm an abnormal parent then because I love it when school is out for the weekend and vacations. I love having my son around. And I willingly place myself around kids, being a pediatric nurse.

That's normal for a woman, but men are bred and trained to avoid kids and immaturity from birth. No crying, no weakness, no softness. I'm a manly man, hard as nails and rough as pavement.

As for the OP: why the hell isn't DHS working on cases that matter and where children are really in trouble?!?! :wall:

They were working on a citizen report. I'd rather they didn't ignore it.

[Samm]

Defiance as a plan of action generally turns out badly. Opium Wars, US Civil War, evading taxes, you get the idea.

She's got a very good case if she stays in the system. If she digs in her heels and acts like she's got the case of right on her side, then she's screwing up.

A position of strength means nothing without humility. Tortoises can beat Hares after all.

Of course you are right... she should hire a lawyer to tell them to **** off.


... and sue their assess for emotional distress and besmirching her reputation... and of course... legal costs.

[LouC]

Okay, let's wipe the slate.

You see neighbor kids going into a house every day, what do you think about it?

Two of her friends who need to leave for work bring their children to her home in the morning before the bus arrives to take them to Thornapple Kellogg schools.

Forget about the facts of this case, just think about witnessing kids going into the house of a single person every day.

Going in after their parents have dropped them off at that house, and then seeing them come out and get on the bus a short while later, I would think gee that is nice that she is helping those working parents.

[jeepers]

This is beyond ridiculous.

In a day and age where people are wanting to legislate community service and 'activists' are all the rage, someone turns in a mom who is helping a couple of friends?

:wall: :wall: :wall:

Up is down, down is up...

I hate these people who do things like this. Sincerely. They should be stuck in a corner with a duncecap labeled 'stupid' on their heads and lectured by some old fart as to what common sense actually means.

[Army Wife]

Somebody need to tel the state that "It takes a village to raise a child..."



:mrgreen:

[Kazsirk]

Land of the Free and Home of the brave...

I was in my car parked in a store parking lot during business hours and I had the car running for air conditioning, and I was on my ceel phone and a woman cop knocked on my car window and said "there is a "click it or ticket" law and I noticed you have your car on but you don't have your seat belt on."

"I said thank you for being observant I was just sitting here enjoing my air conditioning while I made several phone calls but if I leave I will be sure to buckle my belt."

She said "if your car is on and you are not buckled up I can issue you a citation"

I was stunned I said "I was unaware of that, so let me get this strait if I sit in my car in the heat with no air on and the ignition off, then I can move about the car without my belt and I am fine- but if I want to park my car and be comfortable I can get a ticket...?"

She said "your seat belt has to be clicked before you start you car."

She did not give me a ticket but wanred me and then she waddled into the store...

Ok that is crap. My car and my belt and my business and I was ready to storm city hall.

this situation with the nosey neighbor is also crap.
kaz

[jimjames418]

Land of the Free and Home of the brave...

I was in my car parked in a store parking lot during business hours and I had the car running for air conditioning, and I was on my ceel phone and a woman cop knocked on my car window and said "there is a "click it or ticket" law and I noticed you have your car on but you don't have your seat belt on."

"I said thank you for being observant I was just sitting here enjoing my air conditioning while I made several phone calls but if I leave I will be sure to buckle my belt."

She said "if your car is on and you are not buckled up I can issue you a citation"

I was stunned I said "I was unaware of that, so let me get this strait if I sit in my car in the heat with no air on and the ignition off, then I can move about the car without my belt and I am fine- but if I want to park my car and be comfortable I can get a ticket...?"

She said "your seat belt has to be clicked before you start you car."

She did not give me a ticket but wanred me and then she waddled into the store...

Ok that is crap. My car and my belt and my business and I was ready to storm city hall.

this situation with the nosey neighbor is also crap.
kaz
Same thing happened to me last winter while I was waiting for my wife in a Wal-Mart parking lot. I started a thread about it. One poster said that the parking lots are private property and police officers cannot issue tickets there.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_story.aspx?storyid=114016&catid=14

above site has the news broadcast for the area that the story originated in.

A few observations on this specific story:

1. A complaint was made that the woman was running a day care center at her home.

O.K. that was easily debunked..the woman isn't running a day care and therefore doesn't fall under the laws for a day care institution by Michigan DHS laws. The worker must have been half asleep when that little tid bit crossed their desk.

2. No money is exchanging hands for services rendered; ie: A business or money making enterprise.

K...that one is easy to debunk too. No money is exchanging hands here. The children, 2 boys, are watched (and not every day btw) for 15 to 40 minutes while they wait for the school bus. Would the state DHS prefer these boys (age 5 and 7) sit by the bus stop alone for that time?

3. The law is vague as it applies to what denotes a 'daycare'.

Again, easy enough to clear up. Two boys of 'friends' are 'watched' for under an hour; which isn't covered by the Michigan DHS law, and should be dropped as it isn't under their juristiction.

Side note...a state representative has called DHS to clear the matter up. What does DHS do? Become belligerent and press that this woman is running a day care. :rolleyes: I would tell them...prove it! Put the burdon of proof back on DHS to assert their claims are true. The story is so silly, no judge in his or her right mind is going to touch it with a ten foot pole. You know DHS is running on fumes when they have to constantly revert to their 'interpretation' of the law instead of simply stating no case is or could be made against this woman. But the state is never wrong are they? :rolleyes:

Take away the anonymity of reporters too. I mean it's silly at this point. If the law finds you are a mandatory reporter and you didn't report something, your fined or looking at jail time, or both. Your name splashed on the news. So whats the point of anonymity then? Neighbors who don't have the fruits to come and ask you whats going on? revenge for planting a tree on the property line? Dog weeing on their lawn? I mean it gets stupid!

This story will resolve with a re-write or caveat of the law to exclude non money making enterprise and child care. Still, fairly un-nerving that Michigan DHS has no common sense and make it a non story as soon as they discovered the truth of the matter. Some departments just don't want to admit they are wrong.

~Mysty

[MrShotShot]

One poster said that the parking lots are private property and police officers cannot issue tickets there.

So I run over a guy in the Wal-Mart parking lot, the police can't do anything to me because it's private property?

[camarozz]

There is no way I would have anybodies child in my house with me alone. All it takes is one accusation and your life is over! I will stay in the front yard and speak with the children if I am alone, but of course while I have my family around Im not as nervous about that.

gdone has that point solid, single people can come across as weird. We just had a pedephile that had a thing for little boys... when he was arrested, they found 1000's of pictures of child porn on his computers; and five children. He was watching them for a "friend" after school until the mother could get off work. His step daughter thought that was a bad idea, and she was aware of his attraction to little boys.

First word that comes to mind is STUPID mother(s). Not only is it a bad idea to leave children with an adult "friend", and since men are more likely to be the abuser, then that is REALLY Stupid IMO.

[jimjames418]

Side note...a state representative has called DHS to clear the matter up. What does DHS do? Become belligerent and press that this woman is running a day care. :rolleyes: I would tell them...prove it! Put the burdon of proof back on DHS to assert their claims are true. The story is so silly, no judge in his or her right mind is going to touch it with a ten foot pole. You know DHS is running on fumes when they have to constantly revert to their 'interpretation' of the law instead of simply stating no case is or could be made against this woman. But the state is never wrong are they? :rolleyes:

~Mysty
You don't understand. The DHS has twice as many staff as needed to handle the problems in the state. They need to find all these type of cases they can can to keep their jobs and budget.

My daughter worked for them for a year. They do nothing but cause trouble for law abiding people. My daughter got fed up and quit when she was ordered to cause trouble for a poor family in order to take their children away. She refused and quit. :rolleyes:

[Samm]

So I run over a guy in the Wal-Mart parking lot, the police can't do anything to me because it's private property?

That is a different issue; that is a criminal offense. But if you run into another car in the parking lot and nobody is injured, the cops will not respond because it is private property. If operating a vehicle (which includes sitting motionless with the engine running) were a criminal offense, the cop who accosted Kaz might have had a legal basis to issue a ticket, otherwise she is just a busy body like anyone else who might have knocked on his window and chastised him.

[angelicmadrigal]

My daughter worked for them for a year. They do nothing but cause trouble for law abiding people. My daughter got fed up and quit when she was ordered to cause trouble for a poor family in order to take their children away. She refused and quit. :rolleyes:

Well MI must be significantly different than OH. I've actually seen the paperwork caseworkers here HAVE to use before they even do a home visit (not to mention all the crap they do during and after EACH home visit) assuming they do a through job they have way more cases than they should per person.

[angelicmadrigal]

gdone has that point solid, single people can come across as weird. .

If you're a woman no one gives it a second thought.

[angelicmadrigal]

As for the OP: why the hell isn't DHS working on cases that matter and where children are really in trouble?!?! :wall:

Most likely DHS in MI is like Job and Family Services here, they have a liscensing department for daycare liscensing. Though I would think they would notice this doesn't meet the criteria for "daycare". If all she is doing is making sure they get on the bus safely it shouldn't be an issue, at all. I'm not sure WHY they are trying to make it one. I don't even know the criteria they are using to determine that she is a daycare. If it's the same as OHIO, I could probably look it up tomorrow at work.

[jimjames418]

Most likely DHS in MI is like Job and Family Services here, they have a liscensing department for daycare liscensing. Though I would think they would notice this doesn't meet the criteria for "daycare". If all she is doing is making sure they get on the bus safely it shouldn't be an issue, at all. I'm not sure WHY they are trying to make it one. I don't even know the criteria they are using to determine that she is a daycare. If it's the same as OHIO, I could probably look it up tomorrow at work.
.
Under Michigan statute, a Child Care Center is defined as “a facility, other than a private residence, receiving 1 or more preschool or school age children for care for periods of less than 24 hours a day, and where the parents or guardians are not immediately available to the child. Child care center or day care center includes a facility that provides care for not less than 2 consecutive weeks, regardless of the number of hours of care per day.”

[angelicmadrigal]

In Ohio we have what are called Type-A homes as well, and are still subject to "daycare"liscensing requirements. Type-A or Type-B homes can be private residences.

Is what constitutes a "child care center" or "daycare" the only thing they have in MI?

[gdoane]

Going in after their parents have dropped them off at that house, and then seeing them come out and get on the bus a short while later, I would think gee that is nice that she is helping those working parents.

There are a lot of unanswered questions.

Why is she taking in children?
How safe is her house for children?
What does she do that she doesn't need to work?
Who is she, really? Any wants or warrants?

The neighbors are generally bad at spotting psychos. Like that creep who smacked a crying little girl in Wal-Mart last month and the neighbors said the classic "he was such a quiet man".

The psychos are out there and they're not always easy to spot. That's why some suspicion is a healthy thing.

[Samm]

There are a lot of unanswered questions.

Why is she taking in children?
How safe is her house for children?
What does she do that she doesn't need to work?
Who is she, really? Any wants or warrants?

The neighbors are generally bad at spotting psychos. Like that creep who smacked a crying little girl in Wal-Mart last month and the neighbors said the classic "he was such a quiet man".

The psychos are out there and they're not always easy to spot. That's why some suspicion is a healthy thing.

Those are all really good questions... for the parents to ask.

(And we do not know that they do not know the answers to those questions.)


However... in this particular case, not one of them is any business of the State's. If the State can make those questions pertinent in this case, they could demand the same of anyone who ever has anybody else's kid into their house while their parent is not present. What's next? Background checks for every single person who hands out candy at Halloween?

[coyote1880]

Someone had better let the people at www.preventchildabuse.org know about this.

They may be leading people to commit a crime.

[gdoane]

Those are all really good questions... for the parents to ask.

(And we do not know that they do not know the answers to those questions.)


However... in this particular case, not one of them is any business of the State's. If the State can make those questions pertinent in this case, they could demand the same of anyone who ever has anybody else's kid into their house while their parent is not present. What's next? Background checks for every single person who hands out candy at Halloween?

Local hospitals often offer a free scan of goodie bags at halloween with x-ray because trust just isn't a common thing anymore.


Obviously, there are people who would do harm to children.

So, who do you trrust?

I'm a trustworthy guy, passed Top Secret security classification, honorable discharge U.S. Navy, the government knows who I am and I've been fingerprinted, folded, spingled snd mutilated.

The government trusts me. I'd never give them cause not to, I'm a man of my word and a bit of a goody-two-shoes. The interviews were brutal. I had nothing to hide, except that little fantasy where Wonder Woman ties me up and makes me tell the truth......

[Samm]

Local hospitals often offer a free scan of goodie bags at halloween with x-ray because trust just isn't a common thing anymore.


Obviously, there are people who would do harm to children.

So, who do you trrust?

I'm a trustworthy guy, passed Top Secret security classification, honorable discharge U.S. Navy, the government knows who I am and I've been fingerprinted, folded, spingled snd mutilated.

The government trusts me. I'd never give them cause not to, I'm a man of my word and a bit of a goody-two-shoes. The interviews were brutal. I had nothing to hide, except that little fantasy where Wonder Woman ties me up and makes me tell the truth......

I don't know about you, but I know my neighbors well enough to know who I would trust with my kids and they know me and my wife well enough to trust their kids with us. I don't see any reason why the neighbors of this women are not just as capable as we are to develop the trust that they have in her. The State has no business what-so-ever interfering with that trust. Period.

[gdoane]

I don't know about you, but I know my neighbors well enough to know who I would trust with my kids and they know me and my wife well enough to trust their kids with us. I don't see any reason why the neighbors of this women are not just as capable as we are to develop the trust that they have in her. The State has no business what-so-ever interfering with that trust. Period.

You live in a different kind of place. I've lived in my house for 15 years now and I've only got one original neighbor left. Most of the homes around here have been through 3 or more owners since I moved here, and the foreclosures have done a lot to clean up the neighborhood and get the idiots who throw loud all-night parties out of here.

I have no faith left in my neighbors. My neighbors voted for Obama, how shameful is that? I wouldn't trust Obama to watch a kid! he's a politician and everybody knows what kind of perverts politicians are. If they get in your pants you're lucky if they stop at your wallet.

People do not know their neighbors in big cities. You've seen the news interviews where the clueless neighbor of the psychopath of the week stares blankly at the camera and says "he was such a quiet man...."

Trust is something to be earned, not given. Just being a neighbor doesn't make you Mr. Rogers. I wonder what these parents really knew about this woman besides her name and address.

[Samm]

You live in a different kind of place. I've lived in my house for 15 years now and I've only got one original neighbor left. Most of the homes around here have been through 3 or more owners since I moved here, and the foreclosures have done a lot to clean up the neighborhood and get the idiots who throw loud all-night parties out of here.

I have no faith left in my neighbors. My neighbors voted for Obama, how shameful is that? I wouldn't trust Obama to watch a kid! he's a politician and everybody knows what kind of perverts politicians are. If they get in your pants you're lucky if they stop at your wallet.

People do not know their neighbors in big cities. You've seen the news interviews where the clueless neighbor of the psychopath of the week stares blankly at the camera and says "he was such a quiet man...."

Trust is something to be earned, not given. Just being a neighbor doesn't make you Mr. Rogers. I wonder what these parents really knew about this woman besides her name and address.

You are free to wonder, but it is presumptuous for anyone to say that the parents were irresponsible by leave their children with her for a hour each morning without her having been investigated by the State. Any way you cut it, the State has no business in this situation.

[Gabby]

Here is an article that has more details. It also has a photo of the mother involved and the children she, along with her own child, before the school bus arives.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090929/ap_on_re_us/us_baby_sitter_backlash_mich

Note in the below quote that the agency is looking at changing the law so that neighbors and friends and help each other out as in this case.

From the article:

Snyder's predicament has led to a debate in Michigan about whether a law that says no one may care for unrelated children in their home for more than four weeks each calendar year unless they are licensed day-care providers needs to be changed. It also has irked parents who say they depend on such friendly offers to help them balance work and family.

On Tuesday, agency Director Ismael Ahmed said good neighbors should be allowed to help each other ensure their children are safe. Gov. Jennifer Granholm instructed Ahmed to work with the state Legislature to change the law, he said

"Being a good neighbor means helping your neighbors who are in need," Ahmed said in a written statement. "This could be as simple as providing a cup of sugar, monitoring their house while they're on vacation or making sure their children are safe while they wait for the school bus.".

Snyder learned that the agency was responding to a neighbor's complaint.

Granholm spokeswoman Liz Boyd said the agency was following standard procedure in its response. "But we feel this (law) really gets in the way of common sense," Boyd said.

"We want to protect kids, but the law needs to be reasonable," she said. "When the governor learned of this, she acted quickly and called the director personally to ask him to intervene."

State Rep. Brian Calley, R-Portland, said he was working to draft legislation that would exempt situations like Snyder's from coverage under Michigan's current day care regulations.

The bill will make it clear that people who aren't in business as day care providers don't need to be licensed, Calley said.

"These are just kids that wait for the bus every morning," he said. "This is not a day care."

[gdoane]

You are free to wonder, but it is presumptuous for anyone to say that the parents were irresponsible by leave their children with her for a hour each morning without her having been investigated by the State. Any way you cut it, the State has no business in this situation.

The State is running a school bus stop outside this woman's door, concentrating kids in one place and you say they have no business?

I frankly oppose school bus programs, school lunch programs and probably 99% of every dollar spent by our government for anything and everything, but when the money is spent then it has to be spent responsibly.

My preferred outcome would be the cancellation of the school bus program. Let the parents cart their own offspring to school every day. The school bus driver doesn't have any day care permit and the school probably doesn't either so why is the school getting away with something that private citizens can't do?

Are government employees somehow anointed and allowed to do things with children that John and Jane Doe aren't?

If so, then let's take this all the way. Prosecute the school as an unlicensed day care.

[JudasGoat]

bat poop crazy

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

The State is running a school bus stop outside this woman's door, concentrating kids in one place and you say they have no business?

Good and fair point Gene. Granted, this story is rooted in Michigan..however, in California, you pay for your child to ride the bus to school. No more free rides here for your average bus rider. Those who qualify with low income can get waivers or reduced fee's per quarter...but most families have opted to either drive their child...or..have their child walk to school with a large group of same schooled kids. Michigan should o the same thing...as a way to protect their child while in transit to and from school . More rights are granted to the parent with a paid service then a state tax payer paid 'gimmee'.

I frankly oppose school bus programs, school lunch programs and probably 99% of every dollar spent by our government for anything and everything, but when the money is spent then it has to be spent responsibly.

I support the school lunch program...just not the food that is currently offered by the program. Many a child would go without eating during the day if not for this program. However, the food offered shouldn't be the swill that is cooked up and slopped onto our kids. :rolleyes: Whole foods, fruits, vegies, salad bars, soup bars, sandwich bars have been wildly successful in those few schools that have instituted them. Those few schools have shown a savings in these better type foods being served then the old archaic green mystery meat type meals that school cafeteria's have served in the past. Not to mention, it feeds the little bodies a higher nutrition then mystery meat ever could.

California spends 50+% of our tax revenue on education spending. 50%! Yet these children and these schools aren't doing any better in test scores or in averages among the states children in attendance. The education secretary has stated that education is not the top priority in America's schools anymore...siting and offering services to families is. :hand: Education isn't the goal anymore? It's the guise to get the fed into our lives? That is preposterous in it's very premise! Tax dollars should be spent wisely...be throughly vetted before dime one is spent...that I can agree on.

My preferred outcome would be the cancellation of the school bus program. Let the parents cart their own offspring to school every day. The school bus driver doesn't have any day care permit and the school probably doesn't either so why is the school getting away with something that private citizens can't do?

Once your child is on the bus, it is partially under the auspices of the public school your child attends. Meaning, the public school is now responsible for your child; ie safty, rules and procedure etc. Nothing wrong with the public school system taking that responsibility; just as there should be nothing wrong with a friend looking after you child while they wait for the bus to come.

Are government employees somehow anointed and allowed to do things with children that John and Jane Doe aren't?

Yes..your correct. Public school officials in some capacities (lunch room workers, play ground attendants, principals, teachers, librarian's and aides) do have cart blanch with you children. Why? massive background checks, finger printed, vetted and hired to work with the communities children. My eldest has gone through five...count them..five background checks during her post grad work of retaining her certificate of teaching. Why? Five different schools were used as a student teacher training area..each school requiring it's own background check. It's almost too much..but I understand the need for it. John and Jane Doe don't have to be vetted, don't have background checks etc...unless they are running a day care center. However, how many of us require a background check of our friends? How many of us demand our friends be vetted vis a vie finger print live scan before we allow our children to visit with them? Silly notion right? The difference here is private citizen choice verses a state run program that receives money. No money is in the original OP story...were as there is billions in tax payer money going to the schools. It always comes down to money doesn't it?

If so, then let's take this all the way. Prosecute the school as an unlicensed day care.

If they were acting in the capacity of child care instead of educators, then I would agree with you. However, transportation in the name of education is not day care under the law..it's transportation.

~Mysty

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

bat poop crazy

I've got a few for ya Judas...

Nuttier then squirrel turds....
Moonbats....
To twisted to tango....
Nutters...
Booby Hatch approved....
and my favorite....
Wilder then a herd of jack- o- lopes!

hehehehe...fair to say, Michigan DHS is whacked outta their little minds!

~Mysty

[Samm]

The State is running a school bus stop outside this woman's door, concentrating kids in one place and you say they have no business?

I frankly oppose school bus programs, school lunch programs and probably 99% of every dollar spent by our government for anything and everything, but when the money is spent then it has to be spent responsibly.

My preferred outcome would be the cancellation of the school bus program. Let the parents cart their own offspring to school every day. The school bus driver doesn't have any day care permit and the school probably doesn't either so why is the school getting away with something that private citizens can't do?

Are government employees somehow anointed and allowed to do things with children that John and Jane Doe aren't?

If so, then let's take this all the way. Prosecute the school as an unlicensed day care.

The school bus program has no bearing on whether or not a parent allows their child to spend an hour each morning under the supervision of a neighbor, so yes... the State has no business in this issue prior to the child stepping foot on the bus.

And teachers and school bus drivers are subject to Government background checks and are certified by the State, so they already are "licensed" to care for children.

This is a losing argument Gene... you are flat out wrong.

[gdoane]

The school bus program has no bearing on whether or not a parent allows their child to spend an hour each morning under the supervision of a neighbor, so yes... the State has no business in this issue prior to the child stepping foot on the bus.

If we were talking about ONE FAMILY, then I would be inclined to agree with you, however this is not the case.

This woman is desirable as a caregiver for reasons no other than simple geography, she lives at a bus stop. The State chose that bus stop and because of that, they have a duty to make sure it's a safe place for children to wait for a bus.

Now, you trust this woman and that's fine, that's beautiful and I probably agree that she's okay and won't be making a kiddie porn empire out of her house BUT... the State has an obligation to make sure it's a safe place for children to wait for a bus. Bottom line.

My ideal resolution is for the lady to apply for a caregiver license, go thru a background check, bada bing everybody is happy, the kids are safe and all concerns are answered. How difficult is that?

And teachers and school bus drivers are subject to Government background checks and are certified by the State, so they already are "licensed" to care for children.

You're right. People with credentials don't mind showing them. So why shouldn't this 'caregiver' get some credentials? That would resolve all the problems, after all. It's not as if it's impossible to get a daycare license.

Why is she digging her heels in? A couple of sawbucks fixes the problem if she can pass the background checks. It makes me suspicious, because I'm always suspicious of a single adult wanting kids to come into their house. That is NOT normal behavior.

This is a losing argument Gene... you are flat out wrong.

This is a discussion, not an argument.

Think it through... would you leave a kid at a house by mere virtue of the house being next to a bus stop? If so, why? Are people who live by bus stops good folks because a bus stops in front of their house? Is that some kind of proof that they're not homicidal maniac child molesting perverts who keep little girls in a tent compound in the back yard???

I'm not flat out wrong.

You're flat out too trusting.

Believe the worst in people. You'll rarely be wrong.

[Samm]

Believe the worst in people. You'll rarely be wrong.

And therein lies the problem with this discussion... my mother taught me the exact opposite and she and I have rarely been wrong.

But regardless... the State has no business interfering either with your choice of whom you associate or with mine. QED

[jimjames418]

This woman is desirable as a caregiver for reasons no other than simple geography, she lives at a bus stop. The State chose that bus stop and because of that, they have a duty to make sure it's a safe place for children to wait for a bus.
Gene you should study the laws regarding bus stops in Michigan.

The bus stop cannot be within 400 feet of a stop sign or cross road.

The bus stop cannot be within 500 feet of the safe passing distance on a hill or a curve.

A student cannot be required to walk more than 1/4 mile to a bus stop.

Having worked with student transportation for 20+ years, I can tell you that it is not easy to establish bus stops that meet all the laws, rules, and regulations established by the state.

[gdoane]

Gene you should study the laws regarding bus stops in Michigan.

The bus stop cannot be within 400 feet of a stop sign or cross road.

The bus stop cannot be within 500 feet of the safe passing distance on a hill or a curve.

A student cannot be required to walk more than 1/4 mile to a bus stop.

Having worked with student transportation for 20+ years, I can tell you that it is not easy to establish bus stops that meet all the laws, rules, and regulations established by the state.

Okay, I could maybe agree with two out of three but seriously, a kid can't be expected to walk a 1/4 mile? What the heck? The track at any High School is a quarter mile and kids aren't expected to walk it, they're supposed to RUN it.

I could do a 1/4 mile backwards. Doubletime. Wearing slippers. Singing showtunes.

You've got to be kidding me, a student can't walk 2000 feet? Who in the heck came up with that stupid rule? That's got to be a lib. No conservative would look at a quarter mile as an insurmountable task.