Do We Need Prayer Back In Schools?

[mgifford]

I saw a post on another forum last nite asking people to join in getting prayer back into schools. Up until a year ago I prayed for it to happen, but not now. With the events that have occurred in the past few years, I'd fight dearly to keep it from happening.
I doubt it will be difficult to figure out why I'm against it. Anyone else?

[StoneScratcher]

Do we need prayer back in schools?

No.

If you think yes, then you're allowing the government to define God/god(s) and how to worship that God/god(s).

[WorldWatcher]

I saw a post on another forum last nite asking people to join in getting prayer back into schools. Up until a year ago I prayed for it to happen, but not now. With the events that have occurred in the past few years, I'd fight dearly to keep it from happening.
I doubt it will be difficult to figure out why I'm against it. Anyone else?


Mis-characterization...


Prayer has never be barred from schools, as a matter of fact private student prayer is considered Constitutionally protected under the First Amendment. What is not allowed is government directed prayer where the school either mandates prayer or explicitly endorses prayer though the creation of specific forums.


Another fact, schools that interfere with Constitutionally protected private prayer are endangered of loosing federal funds for such actions.


Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools

The purpose of this guidance is to provide SEAs, LEAs, and the public with information on the current state of the law concerning constitutionally protected prayer in the public schools, and thus to clarify the extent to which prayer in public schools is legally protected. This guidance also sets forth the responsibilities of SEAs and LEAs with respect to Section 9524 of the ESEA. As required by the Act, this guidance has been jointly approved by the Office of the General Counsel in the Department of Education and the Office of Legal Counsel in the Department of Justice as reflecting the current state of the law. It will be made available on the Internet through the Department of Education's web site (www.ed.gov). The guidance will be updated on a biennial basis, beginning in September 2004, and provided to SEAs, LEAs, and the public.

<<snip>>

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer. [ 2 ] Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is sponsored by the government but protects religious activity that is initiated by private individuals, and the line between government-sponsored and privately initiated religious expression is vital to a proper understanding of the First Amendment's scope. As the Court has explained in several cases, "there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect." [ 3 ]

http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html


>>>>

[AutoRacer55]

So long as there are math tests, there will be prayer in schools.

[NascarGirl2448]

There have always been kids praying in school, its just not teacher led.

[merickson]

I saw a post on another forum last nite asking people to join in getting prayer back into schools. Up until a year ago I prayed for it to happen, but not now. With the events that have occurred in the past few years, I'd fight dearly to keep it from happening.
I doubt it will be difficult to figure out why I'm against it. Anyone else?
If your concerns are about who will write those prayers, that's why they shouldn't be there at all. No matter who is in charge.

[khigh]

I think students should pray on their own. Nothing teacher led. I would definitely pull my daughter out of school if that was to ever happen.

Why would you want a teacher of one religion praying to their god when your child is of a different religion? It would create a lot of discrimination amongst the students when little Emily doesn't stand up or bow her head during a Christian prayer. Would she do it just to conform? I would hope not.

A moment of silence works just fine.

[ThrowCop]

Prayer never left the schools

[super cool ski instructor]

So long as there are math tests, there will be prayer in schools.

:)) Exactly

[mgifford]

Children are no longer allowed to have morning school prayer and they are no longer required to say the pledge of allegiance but School officials threatened that children will be "punished" if parents keep them from listening to the President's speech. This made me wonder back when the president decided that ALL school children would hear his speech. Was that speech a "landmark" for America, or what?

[WorldWatcher]

Children are no longer allowed to have morning school prayer...


Again false, children are allowed to have a morning school prayer if they desire. See post #3.


and they are no longer required to say the pledge of allegiance


So are you for requiring students to say the pledge if they don't want to or if the parents don't want them to?

What ever happened to parents controlling what students are exposed to are are you only for forcing exposure and compliance on things you agree with?



but School officials threatened that children will be "punished" if parents keep them from listening to the President's speech. This made me wonder back when the president decided that ALL school children would hear his speech. Was that speech a "landmark" for America, or what?


In 2007 there were 100,308 schools in the United States, care to provide a comparison on how many schools made it optional compared to the one or two that threatened to "punish" students if the parents kept them home?



Funny thing is in the second section you seem fine with overriding the parents desire because (I assume) you agree with something, but support an "opt out" option when you don't agree with something.

Wow - seems like a consistent position.


>>>>

[mobiusptc]

mandatated prayer, no
if someone wants to pray in silence or pray over lunch etc then who is to stop them.

[mgifford]

Again false, children are allowed to have a morning school prayer if they desire. See post #3.





So are you for requiring students to say the pledge if they don't want to or if the parents don't want them to?

What ever happened to parents controlling what students are exposed to are are you only for forcing exposure and compliance on things you agree with?






In 2007 there were 100,308 schools in the United States, care to provide a comparison on how many schools made it optional compared to the one or two that threatened to "punish" students if the parents kept them home?



Funny thing is in the second section you seem fine with overriding the parents desire because (I assume) you agree with something, but support an "opt out" option when you don't agree with something.

Wow - seems like a consistent position.


>>>>

Of course the prayer I'm speaking of aren't silent, as you very well know. YOU ASSUME I AGREE WITH THE "OPT OUT". Again, hmmmm!

[mgifford]

I remember very well when o'hare took the "school system" to court to get prayer removed from our classrooms. I was packing to go to war at that time.

[WorldWatcher]

Of course the prayer I'm speaking of aren't silent, as you very well know.


Guess you didn't read the link from the previous post. I didn't say anything about "silent prayer".

Here are the guidelines...

Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities. Among other things, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, the lunch hour, or other noninstructional time to the same extent that they may engage in nonreligious activities. While school authorities may impose rules of order and pedagogical restrictions on student activities, they may not discriminate against student prayer or religious speech in applying such rules and restrictions. http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html


Nope, doesn't say anything about "silent".


The guidelines say the prayer cannot disrupt instruction or school activities, are you in support of a student being able to pray loudly in math class and interrupting the learning of other student's trying to understand Linear Equations?


YOU ASSUME I AGREE WITH THE "OPT OUT". Again, hmmmm!


OK lets not assume here, how about answering a couple of straightforward questions:


1. Do you think students or parents (for their students) should be able to "opt out" of the pledge of allegance? Yes or No.

2. Do you think students or parents (for their students) should be able to "opt out" of the President's speech when addressing school children? Yes or No.

3. Should students be punished for not participating in the Pledge of Allegance? Yes or No.

4. Should students be punished for not participating in viewing a President's speech when addressing school children? Yes or No.

5. Regarding #2 and #4 is their a difference whether children should be punished depending on whether it was President Bush or President Obama giving the speech? Yes or No.


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[Vaard]

I remember very well when o'hare took the "school system" to court to get prayer removed from our classrooms. I was packing to go to war at that time.

no, they had mandated government endorsed/enforced prayer removed from school......


it was one of the things you were fighting for in the war.......freedom of religion.....

[WorldWatcher]

I remember very well when o'hare took the "school system" to court to get prayer removed from our classrooms. I was packing to go to war at that time.


And yet Children can still pray in schools.


>>>>

[mgifford]

no, they had mandated government endorsed/enforced prayer removed from school......


it was one of the things you were fighting for in the war.......freedom of religion.....

But, the "atheists" won that war! I wasn't aware that I was fighting so I could lose a right that had been for many years, in fact since school had begun. In the beginning schools were started so the Bible could be read & studied for learning.

[WorldWatcher]

>




I always skip "color fonts" when I'm reading the posts of others. It's very tough to try & read. In fact, it hurts me. Maybe I'll miss something good who knows.


OK, color fonts removed.


Of course the prayer I'm speaking of aren't silent, as you very well know.


Guess you didn't read the link from the previous post. I didn't say anything about "silent prayer".

Here are the guidelines...

Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities. Among other things, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, the lunch hour, or other noninstructional time to the same extent that they may engage in nonreligious activities. While school authorities may impose rules of order and pedagogical restrictions on student activities, they may not discriminate against student prayer or religious speech in applying such rules and restrictions. http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html


Nope, doesn't say anything about "silent".


The guidelines say the prayer cannot disrupt instruction or school activities, are you in support of a student being able to pray loudly in math class and interrupting the learning of other student's trying to understand Linear Equations?


YOU ASSUME I AGREE WITH THE "OPT OUT". Again, hmmmm!


OK lets not assume here, how about answering a couple of straightforward questions:


1. Do you think students or parents (for their students) should be able to "opt out" of the pledge of allegance? Yes or No.

2. Do you think students or parents (for their students) should be able to "opt out" of the President's speech when addressing school children? Yes or No.

3. Should students be punished for not participating in the Pledge of Allegance? Yes or No.

4. Should students be punished for not participating in viewing a President's speech when addressing school children? Yes or No.

5. Regarding #2 and #4 is their a difference whether children should be punished depending on whether it was President Bush or President Obama giving the speech? Yes or No.


>>>>

[mdk190]

If students wish to pray let them do it on there own time at school like during lunch or recess (for younger pupils of course). I don't think the school should block away time during class for prayer. This goes for all religions not just one or two but all faiths.

[WorldWatcher]

1. Do you think students or parents (for their students) should be able to "opt out" of the pledge of allegance? Yes or No.

Ans: Of course don't you? While you were in "Yokosuka" would you be cool with the Japanese "Head Honcho" demanding that your kids hear his speech?


And yet you brought up how children are no longer required to say the Pledge.


While you were in "Yokosuka" would you be cool with the Japanese "Head Honcho" demanding that your kids hear his speech?


Actually I was stationed in Yokosuka in an Air Wind deployed aboard the U.S.S. Midway. If my children were attending a Japanese School I'd have had no problem with the Prime Minister of Japan addressing the students encouraging them to do well in schools. However, when I was stationed there military dependents attended DODDS schools run by the Department of Defense not Japanese schools.



2. Do you think students or parents (for their students) should be able to "opt out" of the President's speech when addressing school children? Yes or No.

Ans: Of course.


Thank you.


3. Should students be punished for not participating in the Pledge of Allegance? Yes or No.

My kids have been taught to respect, love & always stand by their Flag & country, so I guess this question has no relevance.


I tought my kids the same thing and they would have got their butts in a sling when they got home.


Since you support an Opt Out position, then I assume that means you don't think the government should be able to punish them.


4. Should students be punished for not participating in viewing a President's speech when addressing school children? Yes or No.

I think another "dictator to be" asked that question before.

Ans: my kids kept their little ones out that day.

5. Regarding #2 and #4 is their a difference whether children should be punished depending on whether it was President Bush or President Obama giving the speech? Yes or No.

Ans: Obama is a "dictator want to be". I have no respect or use for him. GW isn't president & has nothing to do with this thread.



So you support people Opting out of required prayer, required Pledge of Allegance, and Presidential addresses.


So what is the issue you started the thread for again? Oh ya, children can't pray in schools - which was quickly disproved by providing the Federal guidelines on student prayer.



BTW - Bush (I) is relevant because as the President he addressed the nations children and while there where minor rumblings from the Democrats in Congress, there was no national keep your kids home from school movement (that I remember). The double standard is enormous.



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[freemind]

Prayer has never be barred from schools, as a matter of fact private student prayer is considered Constitutionally protected under the First Amendment. What is not allowed is government directed prayer where the school either mandates prayer or explicitly endorses prayer though the creation of specific forums.


Another fact, schools that interfere with Constitutionally protected private prayer are endangered of loosing federal funds for such actions.



Good point. This is why I believe that the separation of church and state is a good system. The government can't condone or disparage any religion and the individual is free to worship in anyway he chooses.

[BillyBobUSA]

One day soon, God Willing, schools will be primarily private and parents can have their kids led in prayer if they want.

The public schools are a lost cause; were it not for the poor who cant afford private schools, I'd say just tlet them all disintigrate into the trash heap they are quickly becoming anyway.

[AeroEngineer]

Answer me this:

Which religious prayers should we have? I say lets have Muslim prayers.

[ThrowCop]

Answer me this:

Which religious prayers should we have? I say lets have Muslim prayers.Pastafarian...

[WorldWatcher]

One day soon, God Willing, schools will be primarily private and parents can have their kids led in prayer if they want.


Parents can have their kids led in prayer now if they want.


1. Send them to private school,

or

2. They can lead them in prayer themselves.


Why do you want to turn religion over to the government in regards to your children? Or maybe it's making other peoples children pray the way you think they should that is the real reason.


The public schools are a lost cause; were it not for the poor who cant afford private schools, I'd say just tlet them all disintigrate into the trash heap they are quickly becoming anyway.


You must be very strong...

........................................ to lift such a broad brush.


I'm not poor and as a matter of fact my children received an excellent public school education. Both are now in college. Earning admission on academics. One is working toward a career as Business Information Systems and one that is working toward ROTC and will probably settle into an Engineering major.


But because we're not poor, we get 0, zero, zippo, nadda for tuition assistance. But because we are able to choose where we lived (for good public schools) we were able to put money away over a 15 year period to allow them to continue their education now.



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[Fitz]

I guess when I posted this in the op nobody noticed, huh?
I'm wondering why I wasn't asked about it.
I saw a post on another forum last nite asking people to join in getting prayer back into schools. Up until a year ago I prayed for it to happen, but not now. With the events that have occurred in the past few years, I'd fight dearly to keep it from happening.
I doubt it will be difficult to figure out why I'm against it. Anyone else?

I'll take a stab... Either you had some sort of epiphany and no longer believe in whichever god you formally believed in and would not like your children to be indoctrinated, or you still believe in your god of choice and are worried that your children might be indoctrinated with a different religion than you were.

[AeroEngineer]

Pastafarian...

Another good choice. You must've been touched by His noodley appendage.

[AeroEngineer]

Correct! "political correctness" of late has been leaning toward any Muslim's needs or complaints. IOW, if prayer was back in our formally "Christian schools", immediately prayer rugs & foot baths would be ordered at my expense. For this reason, I'd never want prayer in schools again.

Oh, so it wasn't a rational decision.

[AeroEngineer]

I'm just kidding. But at least you kind of see what everyone else has been saying when these discussions come up.

[Clintville]

I would also not want it. But I don't think there is any serious attempt to legalize it, so I am not worried.

[BlackCloud09]

I'll tell you what my school did when I was in elementary school (albeit, this was back in 1979). We held a 'moment of silence' which composed of a a single minute where everyone was required to just be silent. You could say a prayer to yourself, whether it be Christian, Jewish, Hindu, whatever, do a self-reflection or nothing at all. We all got along and no one complained.

But then, someone had to screw this up to and now there is nothing.

[AutoRacer55]

I'll tell you what my school did when I was in elementary school (albeit, this was back in 1979). We held a 'moment of silence' which composed of a a single minute where everyone was required to just be silent. You could say a prayer to yourself, whether it be Christian, Jewish, Hindu, whatever, do a self-reflection or nothing at all. We all got along and no one complained.

But then, someone had to screw this up to and now there is nothing.

I always blamed Jimmy. His farts in the back row always got us to laugh.

[Apatriot]

Children are no longer allowed to have morning school prayer and they are no longer required to say the pledge of allegiance but School officials threatened that children will be "punished" if parents keep them from listening to the President's speech. This made me wonder back when the president decided that ALL school children would hear his speech. Was that speech a "landmark" for America, or what?

Children can have morning school prayer, just not led by a teacher or over the announcements. Many states have a moment of silence that kids can use to pray (or simply go over in their mind what the day has to offer).

The President never made an order that all school kids would see his speech. Please give me a documented instance where a child was punished for not attending during Obama's speech. I

[BrittleBullet]

People just want their religion endorsed by the gubmint. Nothing new here.

[Clintville]

I'll tell you what my school did when I was in elementary school (albeit, this was back in 1979). We held a 'moment of silence' which composed of a a single minute where everyone was required to just be silent. You could say a prayer to yourself, whether it be Christian, Jewish, Hindu, whatever, do a self-reflection or nothing at all. We all got along and no one complained.

But then, someone had to screw this up to and now there is nothing.
Are you sure? My school still has moments of silences. Though, that is only for when disasters are occurring or the anniversary of 9/11 or something.

[Stuball]

I saw a post on another forum last nite asking people to join in getting prayer back into schools. Up until a year ago I prayed for it to happen, but not now. With the events that have occurred in the past few years, I'd fight dearly to keep it from happening.
I doubt it will be difficult to figure out why I'm against it. Anyone else?
Because you do not want Muslim prayer in schools?

[mgifford]

Because you do not want Muslim prayer in schools?

Silly me, I thought I already answered why!

[JediMindTrick]

Pastafarian...

Our Pasta, who "Arghh" in the colander
Swallowed be thy sauce.
Thy serving come,
Thy strands be wrung,
On forks as they are on spoons.
Give us this day our garlic bread,
And forgive us our starchiness,
As we swashbuckle, splice the main-brace and cuss,
And lead us not into Kraft parmessan,
But deliver us from Chef Boy-Ar-Dee,
For thine are Meatballs,
and the beer,
and the strippers,
for ever and ever.
R'Amen

[Vaard]

R'men!

[Sinister Rouge]

Our Pasta, who "Arghh" in the colander
Swallowed be thy sauce.
Thy serving come,
Thy strands be wrung,
On forks as they are on spoons.
Give us this day our garlic bread,
And forgive us our starchiness,
As we swashbuckle, splice the main-brace and cuss,
And lead us not into Kraft parmessan,
But deliver us from Chef Boy-Ar-Dee,
For thine are Meatballs,
and the beer,
and the strippers,
for ever and ever.
R'Amen


I gave a 5 minute persuasive speech on Pastafarianism in a public speaking class. Best religion ever.





...Except Scientology.