Schiavo could have recovered

[Darkblade]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17813-minimally-conscious-patients-can-learn.html

His team taught 22 patients with various consciousness disorders – including MCS and VS – to associate a beeping sound with air being puffed into the eye, which elicits a blink. When this association is learned, the patients blink on hearing the beep, in anticipation of the air puff, even when it doesn't come.

This type of learning, Bekinschtein says, has to be consciously processed by the brain, and measures the patient's ability to form new memories.

I wonder how it feels to know you signed someone innocents death warrant. i wonder how it feels to know you even argued for someone's death and ridiculed the other side; the side of life and hope.

[LouC]

Teri's brain was gone, she was in PVS.

She wasn't going to recover.

Persistent Vegetative State vs. Minimally Conscious Diagnosing a Patient's Level of Awareness Involves Complex Analysis, Tests

Doctors have determined that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state. Bernat explains this is when "you have wakefulness, your eyes are open, but you are unaware. It can appear as if you are aware, but it's a state of unconsciousness."

Ronald Cranford, a neurology professor at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Schiavo, says there are a number of signs showing that her cerebral cortex has severe damage from the six-minute period in 1990 when her heart stopped and her brain was without oxygen. He said electroencephalograms, also known as EEGs or brain wave tests, of Schiavo's brain have revealed no activity. He has also reported that areas of her brain have shown shrinkage -- a sign of irreversible damage.

Click LINK (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Schiavo/Story?id=600523&page=2)

Neuropathologist Dr. Stephen Nelson performed the autopsy on Mrs. Schiavo’s central nervous system. Her brain was grossly abnormal and weighed only 615 grams. This is only half the weight of a normal female brain of Mrs. Schiavo’s age. Dr. Nelson noted that this is less than the brain of Karen Ann Quinlan which was 835 grams at the time of her death. Mrs. Quinlan suffered a cardiopulmonary arrest and resultant severe anoxic brain damage in 1975 and lived for 10 more years in a persistent vegetative state.

Dr. Nelson describes Mrs. Schiavo’s brain as having “wide sulci and narrow and thinned gyri” indicating significant volume loss. He notes the presence of hydrocephalus ex vacuo which is enlargement of the ventricles in the center of the brain that normally act as a sort of reservoir for cerebralspinal fluid (CSF). When parts of the brain are irreversibly damaged they tend to atrophy (shrink) over time and this loss of volume is replaced by an increased amount of CSF. The normal amount of CSF in the head is usually 150 cc. The amount of CSF in Mrs. Schiavo’s head was 645 cc!

The case of the missing cerebral cortex.

Microscopic analyses of Mrs. Schiavo’s brain were prepared and Dr. Nelson describes the abnormal findings on the slides as “striking in their appearance, and global in their distribution.” The slides of Mrs. Schiavo’s cerebralcortex (the outer layer of the brain that gives us the ability to think, reason, and to be self aware) showed that “the larger pyramidal neurons were globally absent.” This type of neuron normally makes up 85-90% of the cortex. They have about 20,000 synaptic connections with other pyramidal neurons (compared with 6,000 connections for other types of neurons) and likely make up the brain wiring that allows for consciousness. In short, the part of Mrs. Schiavo’s brain that made her a thinking, feeling, self-aware human being was destroyed and gone (these cells do not regenerate).

Follow the balloon?

The optic nerves were atrophied and the visual centers of the brain, which interpret signals from the eyes and optic nerves and allow for conscious awareness of visual stimuli were completely destroyed. This is important because if you recall Mrs. Schiavo’s parents repeatedly claimed that video of Terri in the nursing home showing her following a balloon around with her eyes was proof of consciousness. However, as the autopsy results clearly show, Mrs. Schiavo would not have been able to consciously “see” the balloon even if she were capable of consciousness. This evidence supports the position that various behaviors by Mrs. Schiavo such as laughing, smiling, and even tracking a floating object were simply non-conscious reflexes. Indeed, the courts found that there was no evidence that Terri consistently tracked the balloon or did anything to indicate conscious awareness.

Click LINK (http://www.rangelmd.com/index.php/2005/06/16/lessions-learned-from-mrs-schiavos-autopsy/)

[Darkblade]

you or i cannot say that at all. we don't know. but one things for sure. she won't recover now will she?

[LouC]

you or i cannot say that at all.

Based on the findings before they pulled the tubes and from the autopsy hell yes I can say that.

we don't know.

Yes we do.

but one things for sure. she won't recover now will she?

Her status is the same, unrecoverable, that much is certain.

[Hadassah]

Teri's brain was gone, she was in PVS.

She wasn't going to recover.

#1 Cranford is an idiot.

#2 Of course the brain showed shrinkage after her death. The brain is made up of a good percentage of water and since she was dehydrated to death, no water to the brain meant her brain atrophied.

#3 Cortical blindness, which is apparently what she had, does not mean one cannot track things with the eyes.

#4 PVS patients don't live as long as Terri did.

[iamredbeard]

Science always confusing me, so I step away from that.

To me it comes down to what did Terri want. She didn't leave anything in writing so all we have to the words of those that she was closest to and to be honest I would take the word of a spouse over a parent. What did she really want, I sure as hell can't speak to that, oh how wish she had a living will.

[Hadassah]

Science always confusing me, so I step away from that.

To me it comes down to what did Terri want. She didn't leave anything in writing so all we have to the words of those that she was closest to and to be honest I would take the word of a spouse over a parent. What did she really want, I sure as hell can't speak to that, oh how wish she had a living will.

Problem is, said spouse stated in court at his malpractice suit against the doctor that Terri would want to live. It was only after he received the money that he suddenly remembered that Terri said she wouldn't want to live. Not only that, but multiple people who also knew Terri stated that she would have wanted to live. Also, he claimed that he loved Terri and would take care of her forever, yet lived with another woman openly.

[iamredbeard]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17813-minimally-conscious-patients-can-learn.html



I wonder how it feels to know you signed someone innocents death warrant. i wonder how it feels to know you even argued for someone's death and ridiculed the other side; the side of life and hope.

I see things differently, largely due to seeing my grandmother with alzheimers. How does it feel to know that you did what she wanted and that she wasn't in a vegetative state? How does it feel to know that she is in a better place?

[iamredbeard]

Problem is, said spouse stated in court at his malpractice suit against the doctor that Terri would want to live. It was only after he received the money that he suddenly remembered that Terri said she wouldn't want to live. Not only that, but multiple people who also knew Terri stated that she would have wanted to live. Also, he claimed that he loved Terri and would take care of her forever, yet lived with another woman openly.

I don't know all the facts, I just know that it is a sad situation all the way around. I guess that if I have a bias one way or another it is to let her go and I say that because just about everyone that I know says that if they are ever put in that situation that they don't want to be put on feeding tubes, life support, etc... They just want to be put out of their misery and enjoy the afterlife.

[Dual867PowerMac]

The state of Florida killed an innocent woman in Mengelesque fashion as far as I'm concerned. :evil:

[LouC]

Science always confusing me, so I step away from that.

To me it comes down to what did Terri want. She didn't leave anything in writing so all we have to the words of those that she was closest to and to be honest I would take the word of a spouse over a parent. What did she really want, I sure as hell can't speak to that, oh how wish she had a living will.

Ah yes the importance of Advanced Directives, Living Wills etc. can not be minimized.

[JediMindTrick]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17813-minimally-conscious-patients-can-learn.html



I wonder how it feels to know you signed someone innocents death warrant. i wonder how it feels to know you even argued for someone's death and ridiculed the other side; the side of life and hope.

Does the technique also cover how to turn liquid goo back into brain matter? The autopsy, not that you probably care about facts, showed that her brain had largely turned to goo which is why she was in the state she was in. If you want to argue that she should have still been kept alive then do so by all means but you shoot yourself in the foot by bringing up nonsense suggesting she could have recovered.

[thr3]

I could have been something if I wasn't a drunk. What is your point?

[Vaard]

if anything, this stresses the importance of living wills.......

[SFC(R)L]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17813-minimally-conscious-patients-can-learn.html



I wonder how it feels to know you signed someone innocents death warrant. i wonder how it feels to know you even argued for someone's death and ridiculed the other side; the side of life and hope.

This is called a learned response.

This is not possible for a person who has no higher brain activity.

[Sinister Rouge]

The real tragedy of Terry Schiavo's life is that instead of remembering her for the woman she was, we remember her as the symbol used by the fringe right to advance their agenda.

[mobiusptc]

The real tragedy of Terry Schiavo's life is that instead of remembering her for the woman she was, we remember her as the symbol used by the fringe right to advance their agenda.

southpark showed it best in one of their episodes where kenny was stuck and the lawyer he had could not find the rest of the living will.

one of the best they had done.

[Sinister Rouge]

southpark showed it best in one of their episodes where kenny was stuck and the lawyer he had could not find the rest of the living will.

one of the best they had done.


I believe it won an Emmy.
Those guys raise satire to a true art form.

I kept quiet during the Schiavo ordeal when it was going on, not because I had no opinion, but because I didn't feel I had the right to express it. It was none of mine--or congress's--business.
I did fill out a living will though.

[JudasGoat]

Does the technique also cover how to turn liquid goo back into brain matter? The autopsy, not that you probably care about facts, showed that her brain had largely turned to goo which is why she was in the state she was in. If you want to argue that she should have still been kept alive then do so by all means but you shoot yourself in the foot by bringing up nonsense suggesting she could have recovered.

they said that wrestler, Chris Benoit's brain was like grey goop at the end.

I don't know enough to speculate on her health eitehr way. But I do think the husband was an opportunistic, self centered dirtbag. Some people proabbly hope he gets mop duty in satan's bowels for eternity. I wouldn't go that far myself though.

[JediMindTrick]

they said that wrestler, Chris Benoit's brain was like grey goop at the end.

I don't know enough to speculate on her health eitehr way. But I do think the husband was an opportunistic, self centered dirtbag. Some people proabbly hope he gets mop duty in satan's bowels for eternity. I wouldn't go that far myself though.

Now your using just as silly and using as self defeating an argument as others. You do understand that not all injuries are of the same magnitude.

There are two major issues in the Schiavo case:

1) Could she have recovered?
2) Should she have been euthanized?

The first is a clear and obvious no with all the evidence discovered post mortem. The second is a moral question but those who were against what happened to her would be better served by sticking with the reality of question #1 instead of serving up fantasy because it just renders the rest of their opinion moot.

[FidelisAdMortem]

Very sad situation either way, to watch someone you love deteriorate in front of you, and to be faced with such a decision must weigh on ones conscious for the rest of their life.

[SFC(R)L]

Now your using just as silly and using as self defeating an argument as others. You do understand that not all injuries are of the same magnitude.

There are two major issues in the Schiavo case:

1) Could she have recovered?
2) Should she have been euthanized?

The first is a clear and obvious no with all the evidence discovered post mortem. The second is a moral question but those who were against what happened to her would be better served by sticking with the reality of question #1 instead of serving up fantasy because it just renders the rest of their opinion moot.

1. No

2. No