San Joaquin Valley Delta Smelt Fish Thread

[John phoenix]

My apologies if there is already a thread about this.

Hannity, I gotta hand it to ya. Great show tonight.

I have a number of questions and would like lots more information from both sides of the story. I will get into them in the course of this thread.

I am interested in why the gentleman you interviewed towards the end of the show thought the smelt fish is not the problem.

The show did not go into details from both sides so your viewers can really understand the issue. I hope this thread changes that.

However that being said, I do believe there is a serious problem with our Federal Government. If this was a hurricane, earthquake, fire or a terroriast attack doing this to our the people the government would be the first to help the people. It makes no since that they are willingly doing this to our people for the sake of a fish or the salmon fishermen, unless we have not been told the whole story.

What do you fans think? Have we been told the whole story?

Bottom line for me is to get those peoples water Back On Now! But we need to really understand both sides of the issue so we can have the knowledge and power to help the people of the San Joaquin Valley fight this thing and win.

Moderator, I really think this could help people with this issue. You may want to make this a sticky, or if not, have a whole forum set up just for this issue.

[John phoenix]

Can we get contact information from the key people involved in this issue? How about some Q and A sessions on this forum? I would like to see the people involved and the viewers be able to interact to help broaden the scope of awareness on this issue. Perhaps they can all be invited to join this forum for discussion.

[hatman]

There is a plethora of smelt threads in Washington Politics.
Pick one, or more.

[John phoenix]

I have just found a few thank you. However I think this story should be more general interest because lots of folks who don't like politicts won't read those post. Plus this topic is about helping fix the situation. It's about people helping people as much as it is fighting bad politics. If I posted these things in those other topics, it would not belong and be off topic. I don't care to do that to anyone elses thread. We have to pool all of our information in one place to start to help find a solution. A real solution, a serious solution that will please everyone being hurt by this issue.

[viking35]

I wish to remain annonymous, but had a comment on your show about tha San Juaquin valley on fox. Since we're spending all this stimulus money on worthless stuff, and I'm pretty sure there's an ocean nearby, why dont we spend some of the money on building some desalinization plants? The farmers get their jobs back, plus there would be jobs for people to build the plants, run the plants, and build and maintain the pipeline. Or am I making too much sense?

[John phoenix]

Another piece of the issue not mentioned on Hannity's show tonight.

It's not all about the smelt fish but about the water and the whales

Copied from the Wall Street Journal:


By DEVIN NUNES (http://online.wsj.com/search/search_center.html?KEYWORDS=DEVIN+NUNES&ARTICLESEARCHQUERY_PARSER=bylineAND)

San Joaquin Valley, Calif.
In 1931, a severe drought began that within a few years engulfed the Oklahoma panhandle and a third of the Great Plains in a "Dust Bowl." Tens of thousands of people fled the region—many traveling to California along Route 66, which John Steinbeck called "the mother road, the road of flight" in "The Grapes of Wrath."
A lot of the "Okies" settled in the San Joaquin Valley. In the decades that followed, state and federal officials built dams and other irrigation projects that helped turn the valley into some of the world's richest farmland.

But today the San Joaquin Valley is being transformed into a dust bowl. Hundreds of thousands of acres are fallow, while almond and plum trees are being left to die in the scorching sun. Tens of thousands of people have been tossed out of work—the town of Mendota alone has an unemployment rate of about 40%—and the lines for food donations stretch down streets. The reason? There isn't enough water to go around this year, and the Obama administration is drawing up new reasons to divert more of it from farms and people and into the San Francisco Bay.

The valley has traditionally been a place where someone with few belongings, little education and even no ability to speak English could prosper by picking grapes, milking cows, or hoeing cotton fields. The hearty people who came here were Portuguese, Mexican, Armenian, Italian, Basque and Dutch, along with westward-traveling Americans and Okies. More recent arrivals are from El Salvador, Vietnam and India. I am the product of a Portuguese family that came decades ago.

California has the largest water storage and transportation system in the world. With 1,200 miles of canals and nearly 50 reservoirs, the system captures enough water to irrigate about four million acres and provide water to 23 million people. In many cases, as with the San Joaquin Valley, water in this system is sold to communities by the federal government.

Some claim that California is facing a three-year-old drought. But, according to the state's Department of Water Resources, California reservoirs have received 80% of their normal amount of water and precipitation in the northern Sierras has been 95% of its yearly average this year. So why isn't there more water for farms? Because theirs is a regulatory-mandated drought. The 1973 Endangered Species Act requires that the government take steps to save endangered species. In California, that's meant diverting vast sums of water into rivers and streams to protect fish. Those diversions this year have forced federal authorities to decide who to serve—fish or farmers.

On Dec. 15, 2008, the Bush administration's Fish and Wildlife Service chose fish, a decision driven by a lawsuit filed in federal court in 2006 by the Natural Resources Defense Council and other environmental groups. To settle the suit, the Fish and Wildlife Service agreed to divert more than 150 billion gallons of water this year away from farmers south of San Francisco in hopes of protecting the Delta smelt—a three-inch bait fish. The water is now flowing underneath the Golden Gate Bridge and out into the Pacific Ocean.

Of course, the Delta smelt isn't a particularly attractive species to protect when it means throwing Americans out of work. On June 4, the National Marine Fisheries Service declared that delivering water to farms in the San Joaquin Valley would harm killer whales in the Pacific. And to save the whales, the Obama administration is now demanding even greater water restrictions beyond what has been diverted for the smelt.

There are 130 animal species in California on the federal endangered list, including five salmon species, five steelhead species, four trout species and the North American green sturgeon. To date, not a single fish within the California water system has been removed from the Endangered Species List over the past 35 years. Despite massive amounts of water diverted to help them, the "protected" smelt, sturgeon and salmon populations have continued to decline. It is hardly unreasonable to ask why farmers should continue to suffer if diverting water hasn't even helped the fish.

Congress has the power to solve this crisis. In 2003, a fish-versus-families debate erupted in New Mexico after water deliveries to Albuquerque from the Rio Grande River were cut off to protect habitat for the silvery minnow—another three-inch bait fish. Congress temporarily suspended portions of the Endangered Species Act and guaranteed that water would be provided to Albuquerque. The situation in California is virtually identical and repeating what was done in New Mexico would do wonders for San Joaquin Valley farmers.
It would also accomplish more than what the administration currently has in mind. Next month Interior Secretary Ken Salazar is planning to hold a hearing on the situation in California, following up on a visit he made to the valley in June.
A spokesman for the Interior Department recently declared that San Joaquin Valley's water problems are a top priority for the Obama administration and that the river that flows through the valley and eventually to the ocean to form the San Joaquin Delta is as precious a natural resource as Florida's Everglades. What is precious and what President Barack Obama should come to see for himself are the 40,000 people in the valley who are desperate for water so they can get back to work.

If it doesn't start flowing any time soon, perhaps he can tell them where they should go. Back to Oklahoma?

Mr. Nunes is a Republican congressman representing California's 21st district.

[Kateme]

Who can people email about this issue? These poor farmers need help!!

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Another piece of the issue not mentioned on Hannity's show tonight.

It's not all about the smelt fish but about the water and the whales

Copied from the Wall Street Journal:


By DEVIN NUNES (http://online.wsj.com/search/search_center.html?KEYWORDS=DEVIN+NUNES&ARTICLESEARCHQUERY_PARSER=bylineAND)

San Joaquin Valley, Calif.
In 1931, a severe drought began that within a few years engulfed the Oklahoma panhandle and a third of the Great Plains in a "Dust Bowl." Tens of thousands of people fled the region—many traveling to California along Route 66, which John Steinbeck called "the mother road, the road of flight" in "The Grapes of Wrath."
A lot of the "Okies" settled in the San Joaquin Valley. In the decades that followed, state and federal officials built dams and other irrigation projects that helped turn the valley into some of the world's richest farmland.

But today the San Joaquin Valley is being transformed into a dust bowl. Hundreds of thousands of acres are fallow, while almond and plum trees are being left to die in the scorching sun. Tens of thousands of people have been tossed out of work—the town of Mendota alone has an unemployment rate of about 40%—and the lines for food donations stretch down streets. The reason? There isn't enough water to go around this year, and the Obama administration is drawing up new reasons to divert more of it from farms and people and into the San Francisco Bay.

The valley has traditionally been a place where someone with few belongings, little education and even no ability to speak English could prosper by picking grapes, milking cows, or hoeing cotton fields. The hearty people who came here were Portuguese, Mexican, Armenian, Italian, Basque and Dutch, along with westward-traveling Americans and Okies. More recent arrivals are from El Salvador, Vietnam and India. I am the product of a Portuguese family that came decades ago.

California has the largest water storage and transportation system in the world. With 1,200 miles of canals and nearly 50 reservoirs, the system captures enough water to irrigate about four million acres and provide water to 23 million people. In many cases, as with the San Joaquin Valley, water in this system is sold to communities by the federal government.

Some claim that California is facing a three-year-old drought. But, according to the state's Department of Water Resources, California reservoirs have received 80% of their normal amount of water and precipitation in the northern Sierras has been 95% of its yearly average this year. So why isn't there more water for farms? Because theirs is a regulatory-mandated drought. The 1973 Endangered Species Act requires that the government take steps to save endangered species. In California, that's meant diverting vast sums of water into rivers and streams to protect fish. Those diversions this year have forced federal authorities to decide who to serve—fish or farmers.

On Dec. 15, 2008, the Bush administration's Fish and Wildlife Service chose fish, a decision driven by a lawsuit filed in federal court in 2006 by the Natural Resources Defense Council and other environmental groups. To settle the suit, the Fish and Wildlife Service agreed to divert more than 150 billion gallons of water this year away from farmers south of San Francisco in hopes of protecting the Delta smelt—a three-inch bait fish. The water is now flowing underneath the Golden Gate Bridge and out into the Pacific Ocean.

Of course, the Delta smelt isn't a particularly attractive species to protect when it means throwing Americans out of work. On June 4, the National Marine Fisheries Service declared that delivering water to farms in the San Joaquin Valley would harm killer whales in the Pacific. And to save the whales, the Obama administration is now demanding even greater water restrictions beyond what has been diverted for the smelt.

There are 130 animal species in California on the federal endangered list, including five salmon species, five steelhead species, four trout species and the North American green sturgeon. To date, not a single fish within the California water system has been removed from the Endangered Species List over the past 35 years. Despite massive amounts of water diverted to help them, the "protected" smelt, sturgeon and salmon populations have continued to decline. It is hardly unreasonable to ask why farmers should continue to suffer if diverting water hasn't even helped the fish.

Congress has the power to solve this crisis. In 2003, a fish-versus-families debate erupted in New Mexico after water deliveries to Albuquerque from the Rio Grande River were cut off to protect habitat for the silvery minnow—another three-inch bait fish. Congress temporarily suspended portions of the Endangered Species Act and guaranteed that water would be provided to Albuquerque. The situation in California is virtually identical and repeating what was done in New Mexico would do wonders for San Joaquin Valley farmers.
It would also accomplish more than what the administration currently has in mind. Next month Interior Secretary Ken Salazar is planning to hold a hearing on the situation in California, following up on a visit he made to the valley in June.
A spokesman for the Interior Department recently declared that San Joaquin Valley's water problems are a top priority for the Obama administration and that the river that flows through the valley and eventually to the ocean to form the San Joaquin Delta is as precious a natural resource as Florida's Everglades. What is precious and what President Barack Obama should come to see for himself are the 40,000 people in the valley who are desperate for water so they can get back to work.

If it doesn't start flowing any time soon, perhaps he can tell them where they should go. Back to Oklahoma?

Mr. Nunes is a Republican congressman representing California's 21st district.

Fantastic summation of what has been going on here in our Central Valley. I don't understand much of the politicking that is going on in the back ground of this issue...but it has come to a head..and no one can hide behind a 'fish' story any longer.

One part of the article confused me. How is fresh water from the Delta supposed to help Orca's off the Pacific? (Orac's or Killer Whales along with five other species of whale are seen off the coast of Norther California for about 4 months out of the year, during migratory seasons). I mean really...how? Makes no sense to me at all.

The man who Sean interviewed kept going on and on about the fisher men off the Northern coast...how they too are hurting due to these Federal Mandates. O.K...yeah..and ? How in the hell does that situation have to do with the Delta farmers? :neutral:

What incensed me was this man tried to say that farmers are simply selling their water to So. Ca. instead of farming with it. Yeah..ok bud...whatever. Love to see the facts to support that lame allegation. :rolleyes:

~Mysty

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Who can people email about this issue? These poor farmers need help!!

Google California Representatives..and a page will come up with a full list of all California Representatives. Email them all...tell them you want more information on the issue. One of them is sure to reply.

~Mysty

[John phoenix]

Mysty, I could be wrong but I don't think the man was saying the farmers were selling the water.. I think it was someone else.. a large company perhaps.

I too would like to understand more about this guys side of the story. He tried to say it was not the fish causing the problem, but Hannity did not have the man elaborate on this. Can anyone find me the fellows name?

About the fellow talking about the smelt fish farmers issue having to do with fishermen.. I have a thought. A google search on the delta smelt fish turns up the fact that many fisherman, including Salmon fisherman use this little fish as bait. The silly thing is, Even though this fish is endangered, the fisherman can still use the fish for bait if they catch it themselves in the wild.. It cannot be sold in stores. Perhaps this ties into it somehow.

Also, did you notice that one of the guys interviewed on the show seemed to be for the farmers but every time he spoke the crowd started booing? It was an older man to the very left of the screen. Who is this guy and why the Boos?

I think this crowd knew more about what is going on with the local politics aspect of it then Hannity did, or would let on TV. Perhaps unraveling all of these things will be the key to try to find a solution.

You know, people record tv shows and post them online all the time. Perhaps we can find a copy of the show to find out these names.

Mysty, I have emailed the National Marine Fisheries Service to ask then to explain this: " National Marine Fisheries Service declared that delivering water to farms in the San Joaquin Valley would harm killer whales in the Pacific. "

I will let you know if they send me a reply.

[John phoenix]

Holy Crap people.. this gets much deeper. This issue could be about building water desalination plants.. not to help the valley.. but to take water AWAY from the San Joquin Vally even more!

I will quote, " Finally, desalination is an energy-intensive process, so Poseidon will purchase carbon offsets for the difference in energy between pumping the equivalent amount of water in from the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta and the amount needed for desalination."

This quote is found at the top of the second page of the article here:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/08/27/desalination-california.html

The story is called " Desalination Closer to Reality in California".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

Perhaps if the government wants this and they know the water loss will hurt the farmers they need another way to pacify the farmers into thinking there is a really good reason for the water loss.. lets say, the smelt fish issue... And they need to do it before the farmers have a chance to complain about the water loss from the plant.

O.k. now I'm just sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm sure this related issue plays a part in all of this someplace.. how can it not?

Or perhaps I am not reading this right.. this guy is saying that they are going to pump water into the plant from the valley are they not? Gee I hope I'm reading this wrong. I will be the happiest idiot on earth.

I want to know how Obama's pet environmentalist feel about this water plant issue.

By the way, this is the largest of 18 plants proposed to be built in California. They could start sending water to homes by as early as 2011. But at what cost? They say in the article that they do need fresh water to mix with heavy saline water to send back to the ocean, but they plan to get this water from a nearby power plant that uses it in their cooling system. Apparently this process extracts fresh water from sea weter and you have a heavy saline solution left over.

This being the case I do not understand why they need to have an 'in take' of fresh water from the San Joaquin Delta.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

They've been talking about desalination plants here in California for literally years now. I doubt it will ever actually happen though. The process is far to expensive to produce a natural resource that we do have enough of..if we are responsible with it.

Now...to the base root thus far of the water debate (look in Washington Politics for further threads and breakdowns of the issue).. is Salmon fishermen in the Bay area and along the coast verses Large Corporate Farming in the central valley. The actual Delta has some of the richest farming soil in the world..and no one has an issue with these farms operating. Whose sore over the water issue is Salmon fishermen. Corporate Farms have set up shop on the outskirts of the delta (along highway 5) where the soil isn't as rich..and not as rich in good soil to farm in. This mean lots of water, lots of rehabbing the land in order to farm. The fishermen have stated that through this over farming vis a vie Corporate Farming in the out skirts of the delta and Central Valley has taken all the fresh water available..which leaves little to none to flow into the estuary that is the S.F. Bay..and the only available resource for King Salmon. These fishermen have not been able to fish their main resource for two years now..and blame Corporate Farming for the shortfall.

But wait..there's more. :shifty: Take into account that California State legislators and assembly sells our water to other states and counties within California for profit. These really bright people (I'm being sarcastic) take in money for a certain amount of water before the water table has even been met for the following year! So..they create a water shortage by simple greed. Now..add to this our population boom and growth..and no accounting for resources available for new homes growth..and you've got one hot mess on your hands.

There is enough water for Farming and for Salmon fishing. This has nothing to do with a damn mino bait fish..it's the excuse the Salmon fishermen used in court to make Large Corporate Farming stop from creating more large Corporate Farms..(think in the hundreds of acre's and over population of any one crop that drops prices for family farms on same crops) and they (the two groups) now have been stalemated in a fight that has no clear beginning and end. Why? Politicking and money. Sacramento's capital hill bunch don't want to be exposed...but I think it' too late for any of them to hide anylonger.

Now..I had to look hard and long..but the argument for the killer whale population is this..not enough Salmon..their 'chocolate', their favorite food if you will, is in low supply..and therefore can be extrapolated that their feeding habits will change and could lead to lower breeding in years to come. It's just more wood for the fire...it's not the killer whales..it's just another pawn being used to make a point on the salmon fishermen side.

The guy who was being boo'd...He's a Corporate Farmer. As far as I can tell, local families aren't happy with his running of several large corporate farms in the area...and they are selling water at a huge profit...356 dollars per cubic square foot..which is astronomical to someone who has a thousand acre farm. I was hard pressed to find a picture and name...I did find a blog or two that sighted who the man was and opinions on why he was boo'd by the crowd.

That's what I found thus far....let's hope this time around, someone gets cracking on some solutions or we are all gonna have to get hit in the pocket book for fruits, veggies, grains and meat/poultry. Delta farming gets hit..so do the rest of us.

~Mysty

[John phoenix]

Awesome Mysty!

So the big problems really are the California legislature is selling water for profit and the Family farmers don't want the corporate farms to get an unfair amount of water. or do they want the corporate farmers there at all?

You see, I am in Louisiana and the show on Hannity was the first I have heard of this issue.

It seems to me if both the farmers and the salmon fishermen work together to stop the legislature from selling the water for profit and curb the water use of the corporate farmers, then everyone's problem would get solved.

What do you think about this? It seems reasonable to me because they are on two sides of the same issue. They are not exactly opposed to the others wants and needs. Perhaps we could contact both parties and see how they feel about it.

No wonder Arnold was so tight liped when Hannity tried to get him to agree to meet with the President.. because he already knew the score! He of course must be aware of what his legislature is doing.

Now the big questions: How do you get the legislature to back off on selling the water? Are they doing this legally?

How can the family farms fight the corporate farmers?

On the show there was no distinction made between the family farmers and the corporate farmers.

Do you think Hannity knew this? Do you think Hannity understands the real issues going on? If he does, perhaps he didn't mention the legislature selling the water for a reason and the show was heavily scripted to keep away from this issue. There's more to this.. the truth must come out.

[jmtatro]

You need to provide a reasonable synopsis if you post video links. Further... you need to have personal commentary on the points of the video you wish to discuss.

These are discussion boards. Members who cannot access multimedia, are on slow dial-up connections, on bandwidth limited accounts, etc. cannot discuss an unseen video. Failure to provide a reasonable synopsis is grounds for removal of the link and / or post.

Further, what we are seeing a lot of is links to videos that have already been posted (or another version of them) and without a synopsis members have no way of knowing they are simply wasting their time and bandwidth. LEE

[jmtatro]

John Phoenix in post #15 pretty much told the whole story.

[jmtatro]

On August 25th, the Hanford Sentinel broke the news that Sandridge Partners, a Westside "family farm", was planning on selling 14,000 acre-feet of Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta Water to Mojave Water Agency, San Bernardino County, for a mind boggling $5,500 dollars a acre-foot.

This deal will yield $77 million dollars to already multimillionaire "family farmers." Sandridge Partners is owned by the Vidovich family of Silicon Valley, a family who already amassed a considerable fortune turning Silicon Valley orchards into housing tracts. More recently, as detailed in an article in the San Francisco Chronicle, Sandridge Partners was the biggest 2008 recipient in the entire nation for federal subsidies for thirsty cotton, wheat, and peanuts for their farms in three San Joaquin Valley counties. Think of them as Kern County's Wefare Kings.

[John phoenix]

Sombody clear something up for me.

I can understand the California legislature or government doing it but.. How does a family farm sell it's water?

In the above post it says. " planning on selling 14,000 acre-feet of Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta Water"

Where exactly does this water come from?

How does this rich farm family have the rights to this water to be able to sell it?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If the stories in this thread are true and Hannity was being used by corporate interest ( if so I believe unknowingly to him) and that crowd behind him was getting paid to be there, then they used Hannity and his show to try to get more water either to sell or to make up for lost water that was already sold it seems.

The lines are blurred on who is actually being hurt by this issue. People yell "farmers", but who.. Corporate farmers, Rich family farmers ? Where is the distinction? I wish we had some people from both types of farms on here to tell their side of the story. When you read information in these post and on websites like Restore The Delta it is not clear to me if they have an agenda or who's side they are on.

Can someone help me understand the difference?

[John phoenix]

WOW a BIG Thanks JMTRATO for that video link. It did answer a few questions and help see the issue more clearly.

It seems to me first thing should be done is to get the law repealed that lets Corporate farmers sell their water.

When they made this law and so many gallons of water was promised to still flow through the delta to the bay and it hasn't happened yet.. help me understand this, Who promised this and why hasn't it been done?

Second, find a way to make that water flow.

Third, manage the delta water better so all parties get an amount of water that lets them operate, this includes the fresh water needed for the Salmon.

It seems to me the Fishermen are the ones being hurt most in this issue and then there are the Central Delta Farmers vs the Western Corporate farmers.

It makes so much more sense now that I have enough information to understand this issue better. Between this video and all the info above and the things people have said or not said, it is Crystal Clear to me Hannity was being used and the wool was pulled over his eyes. That or either he does know the score and he's in on it but I really can't believe that..I have watched enough Hannity to know his heart is for doing what is right and fair. I'm not judging Hannity I am just saying in light of all of this information that is how it looks.

We gotta make this right. How can we get a hold of Hannity and help him to learn the whole story and tell the whole story on the show?

Moderator you must read these post. Surely you can study all this information as I have and see how Hannity was being manipulated. Help us get this information to Hannity and help Hannity keep his promise to Mr. Grader about doing a show on the fishermen.

I am willing to believe Hannity was duped. Now Hannity here is your chance to save face and do the right thing. Tell the whole story.


Another thing that playes a factor in this, with California out of money they don't have the money to spend to fix the issue themselves, so what does California do? They rely on Corporate money to get things done. The corporations say we want to do this or that in California (and they lie) and say Look, it's good for the people here is x y and z argument and California gives in. It's all about money power and greed.

It looks like the truth is, if you can take the money, power and greed out of the equation you can then fix the Delta for all parties. Granted the corporate farmers will get less and they won't be able to sell their water anymore but hey, Fair is Fair. If its hurting other industry and destroying the ecosystem it should be a crime for them to sell the water not a law supporting it.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

All parts of the story...but not quiet the whole story yet.

You have to think of this specific problem as a three legged stool. (I posted something very similar in Washington Politics)

First and foremost...the central valley is becoming a dust bowl..no doubt about it. 40% unemployment due to no produce is being grown. Food lines are now over burdened by a population that was more then capable of taking care of itself. This story is affecting the population of the Central Valley..but the core issues aren't about them.

Leg One...Corporate Farming....Leg Two...Capital Hill in Sacramento...Leg Three...Corporate Fishermen/Private Fisherman. All three of these entities have created their own issue.

Although the Fishermen coalition have amassed a ton of information in 'how' the water issue has decreased their ability to fish...how the environmental impact studies have halted their ability to fish...they have neglected to take open honest blame for also contributing to the issue by neglect and over fishing practices. You see..the truth in these enviro studies only became convenient when the Fishermen could use it to bolster their side. Using the enviro's now is like throwing a wet blanket over a forest fire...they are far from out of the woods yet in culpability. It took years and many entities to create this problem..it will take all three entities to solve the problem.

Add to this topic our States Legislative and Assembly...Planning and Development agencys...Capitol Hill itself and you've got the second leg of the stool. Through wasteful spending, carelessly drafted planning of communities, and selling water for profit for a ever increasing spending budget..and you've got a recipe for disaster. For decades California has mismanaged it's water supply/resource. In industries that depend on water for their very survival, it's been a precarious relationship at best. Big Corporate Farms were smart in ensuring their water rights early on. Fishermen didn't get on board until much later..and only now howl at they are unable to fish their highest priced crop...Salmon. That's not the only crop they fish for folks. Far from it. But..it's the one that brings in the highest dollar. Look into what Salmon season brings in for one boat..then tell me how sorry you feel for the plight of the Salmon fishers.

Lastly...Corporate farming. What can one say except they took a good thing...small family farms of thousand to a few thousands acres or so..and built massive food producing farms that blow out almost all competition. Small family farms struggle each year at market to keep up with the glut of big Corporate Farms...who bring down the price of food due to high production. Take Almonds for instance. Big Corporate Farms lay 90 thousand acres of almonds....family owned farms plant 50 to 500 acres....Big Corporate Farms at harvest will bring down the cost of almonds per pound due to high volume..making it almost impossible cash crop for family farms. Now all these farms that are owner bought have automatic water rights for water on their property. Makes sense right? Underground wells in California are deep and vast. Most family farms are able to aptly water their fields on their own water wells...and have done so for literally decades. corporate farms...well they make two cash crops..the one they plant...and they one they drill up and sell off to other farmers or to other counties. They water their crops from the water system of aqueducts that flow through California.

No one entity is to blame here...No one piece of legislation or water bill can be pointed too. It is a complex issue filled with many players who have taken advantage of a natural resource. Why? Greed. really fairly simple.

Hannity...his show...he did tell the truth as to the farmers plight. Who was there or who was not there...I wouldn't even want to get into that argument as it doesn't solve the problem. Who cares who was in that audience or who wasn't. It's true the Fishermen association is using Killer Whales and the Delta Smelt to turn off all water to the Delta...and it's true the Sacramento Capital Hill bunch are running and ducking for cover. It's all true. It's up to us to put all the pieces together and step back to see the bigger picture.

One..we have to begin a whole new water infrastructure and install new water management asap! We need Capital Hill to stop being greedy and making money off of water first..and take care of those industries/crops/products that depend on water to make a living first. We have to stop all development and planning immediately. Environmental studies need to be applied and smarter ways of building and growth instituted. And Lastly...we need truth. Truth from Corporate Farmers, Association of Fishermen and our State Government. All of them need to take their mia culpa's..and move on! Pointing fingers as to who is 'more' to blame isn't going to solve this issue. Taking responsibility and taking action will.

So..turn on the water...limit to a no sale of water by any farmer..no damning or stoppage of natural streams and creeks...and get all three entities to the table now.

~Mysty

[John phoenix]

Mysty i wish I saw that before I posted my email. I just sent this email to Sean Hannity. I urge you and others do do the same. Perhaps someone can post this issue on Op-Ed.

Here is my letter to Sean:

URGENT Sean Please Read:

Sean, I love your show and I saw the recent special you did on The Valley That Hope Forgot.

I was concerned about these people and their plight. I joined your forum and started discussing this issue with others and researching information to better understand it and find a way to help them.

Over the course of my studies I uncovered a lot of information that was not mentioned on your show. This information answered questions about the show such as why Governor Arnold was so tight lipped about going to meet with the President (you notice he sidestepped your question) and why the farmer always got boos when he spoke.

It seems that the issue is much broader than you reported. I do not think you were lying. I believe in light of all the evidence I have gathered that you were unwillingly duped into only seeing and telling one side of this story.

I believe you are a man of convictions who's heart is in the right place and you want to see justice done when people are hurting.

Mr Grader whom you interviewed towards the end of your show encouraged you to do a show about the plight of the Salmon fisherman in Northern California. You agreed to this on TV.

What you need to now understand is that Mr. Grader's issue is directly related to the plight of the farmers. You need to understand this to be able to tell the whole story to the world.

The truth is that it is not just the farmers or the Salmon fishermen that are in trouble due to lack of water. It is the whole San Joaquin Delta Valley ecosystem itself is being threatened with utter destruction. Many factors come into play.

It started in 1992 with a law being passed to let Westeren area corporate farmers sell their water to anyone willing to pay. This was not regulated. Water is being removed from the valley in this manner. The water they do use is much more water than the farmers in the central valley area use because the land is not as fertile and rich. It takes more water to work the land per same amount of ground.

The selling of water in Californa is is big Business. Not only do the corporations do it but the California legislature does it also. California has long looked at the fresh water in the delta traveling down to the sea a wasted resource and is selling this water to other areas of California without realizing the damage it is doing to the Delta ecosystem and the salmon industry.

The water table is lowered. This makes the Salmon spawning from the north less and less each year because fewer of them can make it to the ocean due to lack of water flow. This is why the salmon industry has been shut down for 2 years now.

This is effecting the delta as a whole and the ecosystem is starting to die. This issue has very little to do with the Delta Smelt fish. The Delta Smelt fish was used as a reason in court to try to get the government to stop taking water away from the delta, so the delta as a whole could thrive. It has nothing to do with farmers not getting enough water. The Corporate farmers created the man vs fish issue as a ploy to turn this issue in their favor.

Believe me the farmers who live in the central valley area do not want the ecosystem of the delta destroyed anymore than the Salmon fishermen do, and both parties are against the greedy water selling practices of the corporate farmers.

All experts agree there is plenty of water available to go around if it was only managed correctly. This would mean to me a repeal of the law that lets corporate farmers sell their water for profit and better management of the water so all peoples and the ecosystem can survive in a healthy manner. Granted the corporate farmers will get less and they won't be able to sell their water anymore but hey, Fair is Fair. If its hurting other industry and destroying the ecosystem it should be a crime for them to sell the water not a law supporting it.

I do not believe you knew the whole truth of the matter. You made no distinction between the issues of the family farmers in the central valley vs the corporate farmers on the western edge. You did not seem to know and understand the connection with the Salmon fisherman or the damage being caused to the San Joaquin Delta Valley itself.

Sean I urge you to take another look at this issue and learn it from all sides so you can see the whole picture. Then you can tell the world about the truth behind the problems in the San Joaquin Valley and then and only then will the peoples be impowered to set right this situation for all parties involved. Please have a look at the links to the information I and others have uncovered in your forum. Here is the thread link: http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=61214171 Called San Joaquin Delta Valley Smelt Fish Thread, posted in the General Interest section.

Thank You for your time. I look forward to your reply.
John Phoenix

[John phoenix]

Mysty, you mention this water infrastructure.. I am still struggling to understand this.. is this the same project that the Governor talked about on the show? If so, the Restore the Delta people are dead against this happening. They say it will harm the delta as a whole more than it could help it.

Can you reply to this please?

[Tameless Shrew]

Do any of you commenting on this thread
live here in Northern California?

Zeke Grader does not speak for all fishermen
anymore than obama speaks for every American.


Northern California's Trinity and
Klamath Rivers are NOT diverted to Southern California.

The salmon fishing in Northern California is negatively affected by
foreign harvesting and local restrictions placed on
US salmon fishermen.

A corporate farm is a business owned by
highly successful agriculturalist.
Are you all advocating regulating the
size of farms?

[John phoenix]

Do any of you commenting on this thread
live here in Northern California?

Zeke Grader does not speak for all fishermen
anymore than obama speaks for every American.


Northern California's Trinity and
Klamath Rivers are NOT diverted to Southern California.

The salmon fishing in Northern California is negatively affected by
foreign harvesting and local restrictions placed on
US salmon fishermen.


I do not but I belive Mysty does live in California. Me, i'm just trying to understand all this.

I believe those local restriction placed on the fishermen can be lifted if more of the fresh water is allowed to travel properly from the north to the sea and thus the ecosystem and Salmon fishing will be restored. No doubt forign harvesting plays it's part. We should rely less on imports for everything and buy what we produce at home first. Zeke may not speak for all fishermen, but his comments on the show led me to see there was more than one side to this issue.

This is the first mention I have heard about rivers being diverted to southern California. It takes massive amounts of power and engineering to move rivers. If they were being moved, everyone whould know about it.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Mysty, you mention this water infrastructure.. I am still struggling to understand this.. is this the same project that the Governor talked about on the show? If so, the Restore the Delta people are dead against this happening. They say it will harm the delta as a whole more than it could help it.

Can you reply to this please?

Water infrastructure is not my best subject..but I'll try to explain it to the best of my understanding. California is a huge state. We are the third largest in the Union/Nation. From the top of our great State is the pristine Mountain Range of the Sierra Nevada's. Now base collection of water begins here...doesn't end here..but starts here. OPEN sloughs...yup..you read right..OPEN wooden and cement sloughs that are in horrific shape run throughout that specific region of the Mountains of Northern California. The area's residence of the Foothill and Mountain region have limited use of the water that is abundant in this area. They constantly have issues with water usage issues..and their planning and development is stunted due to the it. Why? Well, the rest of the State needs the water..and therefore these people get limited use of it. Granted, no farming is done in this area...so the State Legislation has determined that these 'Hill' people can be sacrificed as it pertains to their need of water usage. These open sloughs (I do mean open inefficient water type open troughs for run off water) then run water to a few damns that collect it and hold it in reserve for use throughout the state.

Now...after the very inefficient and massive loss of water from this Open Trough type system is finally flowed into our Valley damns, streams and rivers...it is then forced into a series of open aqueducts and sloughs that allow open flowing water to be channeled into the many area's of the remainder of the Sate. Again, very inefficient and great loss of water is noted in this process. The people of Northern California must constantly conserve their water usage and are charged large sums for usage due to the greater need in the remainder of the state. It doesn't exactly endear the Planning and Development departments to the great people of California I can assure you.

To Central California..and the main point of the story Sean covered. On one side of the Delta is farm rich soil...the best in the world by my understanding. It's ground water reservoirs were some of the best and deepest in the Nation. Family Farmers own their land, and through that, own the water reservoirs that are under their soil. Those reservoirs were fed by the many under current flow of water that came from free flowing streams and rivers. Many of these families have farmed the same land for literally decades without want for water. Go to 1970's and big Agra to the picture. In special deals with Sacramento Capital Hill gang/Planning and Development/State Water Management, water rights beyond the farm rich soil became topic one. Big Agra agreed to pay for upgrades to our (still) antiquated water system in lieu of using their own ground water on the other side (west side) of the farm rich Delta region...(hwy 5 heading towards Bakerfields/Taft/Hurnon...pretty much desert type soil) This allowed them to not only sell off their ground water at a profit...but it also granted them full rights to water that flowed through their part of the aqueduct. Granted, I was very young when this was a hot topic...but it's what I remember from that time. Jump to today's topic...Big Agra has milked the water issue to it's last drop. Creating in essence what we are witnessing today. The reason the investment of big Agra into the aqueduct proposition was so attractive was the population boom and building in Southern California. With a boom in building comes a great need for water in those regions to service the populace. The table, so to speak, was set for the issue we have today as it pertains to just farming in the Central Valley.

and yet...other then some nicely cemented aqueducts that can clearly be seen on Hwy 5...our open sloughs, that are rickety and near rotten still stand to carry the water to our damns...which millions of tax dollars have gone into maintaining...into aqueducts that main purpose is to serve the Big Agra in the Central Valley..the cement monster that it is, snaking through the Central Valley and into the aqueducts of Southern California, damning up all free flowing water from just below the Sacramento Valley and diverting it to these huge aqueducts...nothing has changed in over 40 years. That is...except all of this has changed the face of how water is delivered to California and those that need it to survive.

Put into this equation our state government...who through greed and power thought beyond the warnings of environmental studies..and plowed through with what they loved to call 'progress'. Oh..it worked for a while..but now it's on it's last legs..and no one wants to take responsibility for their hand in it...not Big agra...and certainly not our state government.

Oh..I haven't forgot the Fishermen and the poor North coast population. You see..for decades they merely where an extension of 'want' from the water supply..just like the rest of California. They squandered and wasted with the best of them. Enviro's warned them what 'could' happen if populations of fish were depleted..what effects could be seen if change wasn't instituted and soon. A fish Hatchery..right here in the Sacramento Valley, has been up and running since the 60's. It runs to this very day...but hey..we don't want facts to get in the way of a good rant by some Bay Area fishermen now do we? (*wink)But hey..it was the 70's..and what did they care to wit about enviro impact studies. So..they fished, and fished and fished some more...and now want to cry that the big bad Agra farmers have taken their resource away. Couldn't be farther from the truth if they tried. They are culpable in depleting their own resource..and simply want someone else to blame. Listen to any one of them now..and you'd think they have all been good stewards of that oh so precious (they claim) (and pricey) resource. It's bull. When it was time to sit at the table to discuss this issue time and time again..their seat was empty.

So...there it is. Three legged stool...all three entities are to blame in this mess. All three crafted out of greed their want for profit and squandered our water resources. Who suffers? Family farmers who have been cut off from what is rightfully theirs...and the California populace who simply wish to live. So whose the real bad guy of this story? Its not the delta Smelt...nice red herring huh? (pardon the pun) It's not the Killer Whale population..but hey..it gets people's attention...It's not the enviro's...hell they've been warning them for years...and it's certainly not the good people of California who are simply at the mercy of a few greedy and power hungry individuals at the top.

It may take you a bit...but Google is your friend. It's all there. Go back several years and decades..into the late 60's and 70's before the huge population boom and second huge building boom of California. Read the old articles of the Sacramento Bee..the Modesto Register and the Fresno newspapers. it's all there, in black and white. Then read forward..and it all becomes to clear who and what are to blame..and how to fix the mess we are in. It can be fixed...but a few bad apples need to be rutted out first. That's the hard part..getting these people out of our government and out of power.

Hope that answered in part some of your questions....

~Mysty

[Forever-27]

This isnt news, this has been happening here in California for a few years now. Dosent surprize me about the sitsuation. Does surprize me that the rest of the country is just now catching on to it. These are the same california democrats that tried to make spanking your kid illegal.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Do any of you commenting on this thread
live here in Northern California?

Zeke Grader does not speak for all fishermen
anymore than obama speaks for every American.


Northern California's Trinity and
Klamath Rivers are NOT diverted to Southern California.

The salmon fishing in Northern California is negatively affected by
foreign harvesting and local restrictions placed on
US salmon fishermen.

A corporate farm is a business owned by
highly successful agriculturalist.
Are you all advocating regulating the
size of farms?

Born and raised in Southern California...Married and raised three children in Northern California for the past 30+ years. So yeah...guess you could call me a Californian. ;)

You raise several good points. No, one group of the 'Association of fishermen" doesn't speak to the whole issue. How can he? He's out for one group and one group only. Hell, it's what lobbyist do right? He's being paid to get a message across right? Same goes for Big Agra trying to hide behind family farms. Same for a Governor that wants nothing more then to hide behind two bickering entities and keep his hands clean. Sad truth is..all three of them are to blame..all three created the mess..and none of them want to clean it up.

Do the research folks..it's all there. It's not riddled with complexities so that no one could unravel and understand them. It is however, rife with corruption and greed. It's plain as the nose on their faces.

~Mysty

[John phoenix]

Hey Mysty thanks a lot. Yeah that helped a lot. In light of this I am going to go back over the post on Restore the Delta and see if I can understand what they are opposed to. On second thought. I'll post it here:
( http://www.restorethedelta.org/action-protect-species.php)

How To Protect the Endangered Species Act and The Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta

There are three ways that you can help to protect species, stop the water grab, and protect Northern California's Delta economy.

1) Contact Senator Feinstein, Senator Boxer, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. Let them know that the Endangered Species Act (ESA) and the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) should not be weakened to allow for the construction of the peripheral canal. Tell them that there are better ways to solve California's water needs including conservation, water recycling, and restoration of flood plains for underground water storage in the Central Valley.
Let them know that you do not support the destruction of the Pacific Coast's largest estuary and the Delta's multi-billion dollar annual economy in order to support corporate agri-business in the southern part of the state.
Senator Diane Feinstein can be contacted at:
Washington Office -- (202) 224-3841
San Francisco Office -- Phone: (415) 393-0707

Senator Barbara Boxer can be contacted at:
Washington Office (202) 224-3553
San Francisco Office (415) 403-0100
Sacramento Office (916) 448-2782

Speaker of the House Nance Pelosi can be contacted at:
Washington Office (202) 225-4965
San Francisco Office (415) 556-4862

2) Send a letter to Nancy Sutley, Chair of the White House Council on Environmental Quality letting her know that you expect the Federal Government to protect species and the environmental health of Delta communities.
Here's a sample letter:
Ms. Nancy Sutley
Chair of the White House Council on Environmental Quality
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Ms. Sutley,
Currently, the governor of California and a handful of Congressional Representatives from the Central Valley are trying to side-step the Endangered Species Act to construct, at a cost of $12-25 billion, a huge new water diversion called the peripheral canal. The peripheral canal could have a devastating negative environmental impact on the Sacramento Delta and the wildlife (including the Federally Endangered smelt) that call it home. Can we count on you to stand up for the Endangered Species Act again and block this horrible plan, which would benefit a handful of large agribusiness firms, and would hurt, not only fish and animals, but a multi-billion dollar annual economy that includes fisherman and Delta family farmers who depend on clean Delta water?
3) Learn more about water management practices in California on how decisions made by State and Federal agencies are the primary reason for the ecological decline of the Sacramento-San Jaoquin Delta. Click here (http://restorethedelta.org/action_join.php) to sign up for Restore the Delta's email newsletter Delta Flows.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now my question is: Is this canal something the people want or does this canal hurt the delta more? Is this group is another example of an astroturf group.. a so called grass roots group that says its for the people when in reality they are plants for big business and have another agenda?

I ask because this canal thing I haven't heard much about. I guess I haven't found out yet where this canal starts and ends and exactly what it does... I will try to research this.

Oh wow if you google "peripheral canal" you find all kinds of arguments For and Against - this is going to take a while. Half the people say it's the best thing for the delta the other half say it will harm it.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

*snipped*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now my question is: Is this canal something the people want or does this canal hurt the delta more? Is this group is another example of an astroturf group.. a so called grass roots group that says its for the people when in reality they are plants for big business and have another agenda?

I ask because this canal thing I haven't heard much about. I guess I haven't found out yet where this canal starts and ends and exactly what it does... I will try to research this.

Oh wow if you google "peripheral canal" you find all kinds of arguments For and Against - this is going to take a while. Half the people say it's the best thing for the delta the other half say it will harm it.

First and foremost...anything that states the damn regulation and protection endangered species act for the stupid bait fish the Delta Smelt is a rouse! Plain and simple..stop using it as an excuse to bend what should be clear and simple water rights and management. It's not about the damn Delta Smelt!

Now...what this is about as it pertains to the peripheral canal is the same rouse the aqueduct was in the 70's with big aga and the cement snake river that winds it way through the Delta and Central Valley. It was a bad choice then..remains a bad choice present day. It's more of the same crap sold by a new group to achieve the same end. So no..the canal is not an answer...period.

As far as what some alternative choices are...few if any have really been brought to the table. Why? Good question. Answer is...MONEY. Big agra doesn't want to give up it's big dollar business in farming. Why would it let billions of dollars and federal monies go without a fight? Why would they do what's best for the state when their main goal is what's best for their bottom line. Same could be said for the Fishermen Association and States governmental agency of water resource and land management/planning and development. MONEY...POWER....GREED. Until they are all dealt with in the full light of transparency and public scrutiny..I wouldn't trust any of them to come up with a so called solution.

As much as I hate to admit it...Enviro's should be left to the solution on our water management. Damn tree huggers make me nuts usually...but on this issue..they have it right. They've hurt our state in so many ways with nonsense type regulations..and have ALLOWED this water mis-management for literally decades. Ever wonder why that is? Look into the California enviro lobby...see who some of their largest supporters are..and it tells you all you need to know. :whistle:

~Mysty

[jmtatro]

JohnPhoenix,

Thank you for writing the letter to Sean Hannity. I hope he reads it. It's something that someone from New Orleans would get a better handle on the problem than most Californians. Thank you again, both of you.

You might want to check out this web sight. It's titled Navigating the Delta: Comparing Futures, Choosing Options:

www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_708EHRB.pdf (http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_708EHRB.pdf)

Mysticbeauty, did you watch the videos? If not, here they are again:

You need to provide a reasonable synopsis if you post video links. Further... you need to have personal commentary on the points of the video you wish to discuss.

These are discussion boards. Members who cannot access multimedia, are on slow dial-up connections, on bandwidth limited accounts, etc. cannot discuss an unseen video. Failure to provide a reasonable synopsis is grounds for removal of the link and / or post.

Further, what we are seeing a lot of is links to videos that have already been posted (or another version of them) and without a synopsis members have no way of knowing they are simply wasting their time and bandwidth. LEE


The one's about water are 3-9. JohnPhoenix, watch Number 2 to see the Blue Angels.

[John phoenix]

A lot of people here in New Orleans have a deep compassion for people going through tragedy. We lived through Hurricane Katrina to see our entire city underwater. I have never seen such a flood before or since. But we came back. Hope must never die as long as one person is willing to stand up for what is right and try to lend a hand.

I know there are a lot of issues here, a lot of different sides, people and corporations with agendas and it seems hopeless. But I also know the future is not set. The future is what you make it. The people of California can get through this too. It's going to take a lot to get there but as long as there is hope, there is always a way.

I encourage everyone to write Sean Hannity. He has an email page accessed from the main website.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

JohnPhoenix,

Thank you for writing the letter to Sean Hannity. I hope he reads it. It's something that someone from New Orleans would get a better handle on the problem than most Californians. Thank you again, both of you.

You might want to check out this web sight. It's titled Navigating the Delta: Comparing Futures, Choosing Options:

www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_708EHRB.pdf (http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_708EHRB.pdf)

Mysticbeauty, did you watch the videos? If not, here they are again:

www.vimeo.com/5930504 (http://www.vimeo.com/5930504)

The one's about water are 3-9. JohnPhoenix, watch Number 2 to see the Blue Angels.

Yes..I did watch the video...and in part..has valid points as it relates to the water issue in Central California. However...pay attention to whose side that piece is supporting. That video far from tells the whole story...and really..makes the fishermen association sound like victims of a crime. They are partners right in there with big agra and our state government. All three responsible for the mess they've made.

~Mysty

[jmtatro]

MysticBeauty,

Here is some more web sights for you if you are interested.

www.water.ca.gov/drought/docs/DroughtUpdate-083109.pdf (http://www.water.ca.gov/drought/docs/DroughtUpdate-083109.pdf)

www.water.ca.gov/news/newsreleases/2009/040209droughtrpt.pdf (http://www.water.ca.gov/news/newsreleases/2009/040209droughtrpt.pdf)

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29433780/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29433780/)

Unless we have better than 100 percent snow pack and rain this winter, the Central Valley won't get much water next year.

I don't know about Sacramento, but we in the Russian River Valley, we were expected to cut back at least 20 pecent of our water use. In Marin County, the ranchers had to sell off their herds of cattle because of the lack grass for grazing. In the Sacramento Valley, some Rice farmers couldn't flood their fields.

This is what caused alot of the problems. That and the economy.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

MysticBeauty,

Here is some more web sights for you if you are interested.

www.water.ca.gov/drought/docs/DroughtUpdate-083109.pdf (http://www.water.ca.gov/drought/docs/DroughtUpdate-083109.pdf)

www.water.ca.gov/news/newsreleases/2009/040209droughtrpt.pdf (http://www.water.ca.gov/news/newsreleases/2009/040209droughtrpt.pdf)

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29433780/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29433780/)

Unless we have better than 100 percent snow pack and rain this winter, the Central Valley won't get much water next year.

I don't know about Sacramento, but we in the Russian River Valley, we were expected to cut back at least 20 pecent of our water use. In Marin County, the ranchers had to sell off their herds of cattle because of the lack grass for grazing. In the Sacramento Valley, some Rice farmers couldn't flood their fields.

This is what caused alot of the problems. That and the economy.

We are constantly told we are in drought in California. I can't remember the last time I heard we weren't in a drought or drought type conditions? Can you? BTW..Russian River area is a very pretty place...Marin county...oh love to visit..best sea food restaurants and beautiful views..lovely place.

Yes your correct..if we don't have enough rainfall/snow pack for the end of 09 water tables....we most certainly will have an even larger problem on our hands for the population and development within the state of California. Water prices may go up again for the populace of the state...less water/drought conditions means a higher priced commodity right? As it pertains to this situation...the hwy 5 corridor big agra farms..the fishermen...the state government using water and the sale of water as a cash crop...I doubt it will have little impact on these three entites. Our water totals are predicted to be very close to what we had in this years totals. In this years totals alone, we still sold water as a cash crop...big agra stilled farmed some plots...and fishermen still fished...just not for crab or Salmon. Crabbing was put on hold this year due to an oil spill...remember?)

I'm not doubting our water totals or tables. One must remember however that ground springs, ground wells and water held in damn/aqueducts/reservoirs are not all counted in our year end totals. (Depends on who owns the water rights to that type of water) So a 70 + % total for the year without our water reserves sounds very low. It's supposed too...to get us to conserve...to get us to pay more and more for an abundant resource (if the state government would stop selling it as a budget shortfall cash crop)...and to get us used to less and less water usage. Makes perfect sense in that light right?

Water rights law in California: http://www.blm.gov/nstc/WaterLaws/california.html

It gets really convoluted and heavy on the legalize the deeper you look into our water situation. I wade through it as best i can...try to wrap my head around the horrific mismanagement of our water..which I might add..there is enough to achieve all our needs and goals..if only it were managed correctly and constructively. ;)


~Mysty

[Carbone56]

First and foremost...anything that states the damn regulation and protection endangered species act for the stupid bait fish the Delta Smelt is a rouse! Plain and simple..stop using it as an excuse to bend what should be clear and simple water rights and management. It's not about the damn Delta Smelt!

Now...what this is about as it pertains to the peripheral canal is the same rouse the aqueduct was in the 70's with big aga and the cement snake river that winds it way through the Delta and Central Valley. It was a bad choice then..remains a bad choice present day. It's more of the same crap sold by a new group to achieve the same end. So no..the canal is not an answer...period.

As far as what some alternative choices are...few if any have really been brought to the table. Why? Good question. Answer is...MONEY. Big agra doesn't want to give up it's big dollar business in farming. Why would it let billions of dollars and federal monies go without a fight? Why would they do what's best for the state when their main goal is what's best for their bottom line. Same could be said for the Fishermen Association and States governmental agency of water resource and land management/planning and development. MONEY...POWER....GREED. Until they are all dealt with in the full light of transparency and public scrutiny..I wouldn't trust any of them to come up with a so called solution.

As much as I hate to admit it...Enviro's should be left to the solution on our water management. Damn tree huggers make me nuts usually...but on this issue..they have it right. They've hurt our state in so many ways with nonsense type regulations..and have ALLOWED this water mis-management for literally decades. Ever wonder why that is? Look into the California enviro lobby...see who some of their largest supporters are..and it tells you all you need to know. :whistle:

~Mysty
Mysty, here is my personal email acct-carbone56@gmail.com
i am producing a tv show about California and this topic is at the top of my list for the pilot. i have read all your post, and i have to say, you have taught me alot about this issue. you have given me a strong first step in understanding the topic. please email me for i have a few more questions for you. thanks.-carlos

[Listener6]

Delta Smelt is a Protest Song that I was inspired to write after hearing Sean's radio program from the Central Valley of California on Thursday, September 17, 2009. It is a protest against the Obama EPA (Lisa Perez Jackson - Administrator) for turning off the Water to the Family Farms in the Central Valley of California! It needs no explanation if you listen to it from start to finish. It lays out the situation as it is today and as Sean has reported it many times on his radio and television programs. I have borrowed the tune "Delta Dawn" because it is what came to me when I began writing the new lyrics. I am in no way connected to the composers of the music, or the singers who had hit recordings, i.e. Tanya Tucker & Helen Reddy.

The video can be found on YouTube by following this URL: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ9_3W4Ys2g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ9_3W4Ys2g)
:cool: