Would This Man Still Be Saved?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

[jitterbug]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills is opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?


Once you commit yourself to God, you are His forever, regardless. You will spend eternity with Him. Once saved, always saved.

[RayMan]

http://geekgirl.dk/startrek/pics/spock.gif

A fascinating hypothetical with a veritable plethora of variables.

[Reeder]

Once you commit yourself to God, you are His forever, regardless. You will spend eternity with Him. Once saved, always saved.

How are we to determine whether or not we are saved?

[Fire Watch]

Once you commit yourself to God, you are His forever, regardless. You will spend eternity with Him. Once saved, always saved.
False.

[Fire Watch]

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?
It would be impossible for anyone but God to determine this mans fate.

[stereo]

Once you commit yourself to God, you are His forever, regardless. You will spend eternity with Him. Once saved, always saved.

I agree too. Once saved by accepting Christ as your savior, always saved.

By grace we are saved though faith not by works. Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2:8&version=KJV)
Nowhere in the bible does it say we can be unsaved.

[Semi-Sweet]

One of my Bible students was worried about his grandpa who had died. He had been a faithful gentle man all his life and then had alzheimer's before he died. He had gotten violent and was a completely different man than he had been before. He asked me if I thought that God would forgive him.

I told him that God created our brains, and that He would be able to understand more that we could. I also told him that his grandpa was in the hands of a just and merciful God.

[RayMan]

<snip>
Nowhere in the bible does it say we can be unsaved.

Really? So was the author of Hebrews just joking with the Christians he was writing to?


Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

[gpd®]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop? The world may...........

[Koushi Shinigami]

Three.

[Wake-Up]

I'm an atheist but in our criminal justice system if the man survived and it could be proven his actions were a result of his initial injury, he would not be held accountable for his actions due to a mental defect, why would his God be less merciful?

It would seem a loving and merciful God would not hold a person responsible for actions beyond their control and wouldn't He know this man's true intent?

[Apatriot]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

Well, firewatch's answer is the only correct one.

I can argue either side, but my basic idea is that this guy is now mentally ill, and probably has no control over himself. In that vein, I would guess on the side that he will get a chance for heaven.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I'm an atheist but in our criminal justice system if the man survived and it could be proven his actions were a result of his initial injury, he would not be held accountable for his actions due to a mental defect,


You are certain about this? Say the doctors and psychologists give him a clean bill of health, other than the memory loss. They say he fully understands what he has done and the import of his actions. As I understand it, there are plenty of sociopaths in our jails right now.

[beaker]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?


Who's to say he "truly" accepted Christ? There are a lot of luke warm Christians sitting in the pews every Sunday.
:think::think::think:

[RayMan]

Who's to say he "truly" accepted Christ? There are a lot of luke warm Christians sitting in the pews every Sunday.
:think::think::think:

Let's pretend he did.

[beaker]

Let's pretend he did.

In that case.....


I don't know.

That's a tough one.

[RayMan]

In that case.....


I don't know.

That's a tough one.

Yep.

[gpd®]

Three.

What an awesomely holy number.

[gpd®]

Who's to say he "truly" accepted Christ? There are a lot of luke warm Christians sitting in the pews every Sunday.
:think::think::think:

You know their hearts?

[RayMan]

What an awesomely holy number.

42 is more all knowing.

[gpd®]

42 is more all knowing.

Can't argue with the pope.

[RayMan]

Can't argue with the pope.


You got that right.

[gpd®]

You got that right.

Shutes, tried to make you say "damn right." You really are the pope.

[camarozz]

Since we do not make that final judgement, I do not know if he would be in heaven.

I would assume a few things based on my beliefs. Once saved always saved applies to the practicing believer, but we can choose to deny that salvation, which also leads one to consider if they were saved in the first place.

I believe in this senario there is a chance the man would make it to heaven because of the extenuating circomstances. But once again that is Gods decision.

[RayMan]

Shutes, tried to make you say "<darn it to heck right>" You really are the pope.

Yes...yes I am.


Hopefully no Mormons were hurt through the faux cussing in this post.

[beaker]

You know their hearts?

Nope.

Didn't say I did.

Going to church doesn't make me a Christian,

anymore than standing in the garage makes me a car.

[gpd®]

Nope.

Didn't say I did.

Going to church doesn't make me a Christian,

anymore than standing in the garage makes me a car.

Sorry, but your post did come across as a judgment call. You said there "are" not there "may be" a lot of luke warm Christians in the pews.

[beaker]

Sorry, but your post did come across as a judgment call. You said there "are" not there "may be" a lot of luke warm Christians in the pews.


No need to apologize. I just know that scripture speaks of being "luke warm", so I can only assume( I know I shouldn't do that) that there are still some who go to church for the wrong reasons. I can remember seeing one of the Left Behind movies where the pastor of the church got left behind in the rapture. Boy he was surprised.;)

[gpd®]

No need to apologize. I just know that scripture speaks of being "luke warm", so I can only assume( I know I shouldn't do that) that there are still some who go to church for the wrong reasons. I can remember seeing one of the Left Behind movies where the pastor of the church got left behind in the rapture. Boy he was surprised.;)

The verse was to convict the person who was truely "lukewarm." Only those of us (including myself), who are "lukewarm" know it by our conviction from God. Basically, no one should call another "lukewarm." God is the final judge.

[beaker]

The verse was to convict the person who was truely "lukewarm." Only those of us (including myself), who are "lukewarm" know it by our conviction from God. Basically, no one should call another "lukewarm." God is the final judge.


Let me ask you a question.

If you observed one of your Christian brothers or sisters being what you considered to be being "luke warm" or acting in a sinful way, would you approach them about it or just let it go?

[Rurudyne]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?
There are 2 main possibilities and the second has 2 main sub-possibilities.

Either his former appearance was only just that and once his will that had created and sustained it was broken and no longer in the way he reverted to a more honest expression of himself.

Or his behavior afterward reflected aspects of the injury beyond the assumptions you have made and that there is in fact no true 'recovery' (outside of the one thing absolutely not recovered) but only a return to crude functioning as men account such things.

In this last case he could still be reverting to an honest expression of himself OR his will and person are so damaged that he is essentially spiritually incompetent. Also, both could be true, he could have been always unsaved and now is spiritually incompetent.

If he was indeed saved then he is sealed by God, essentially this is a question of if someone who has been born can be "unborn" thereafter.

But just because someone seems saved that doesn't mean they are.

Remember, the Lord did not in so far as we know say of even Herod or Pilate that it would be good for them had they not been born; but, He did say it of someone that everyone seemed to think at the time was among the elect. So appearances can be deceiving.

[optrader]

I agree too. Once saved by accepting Christ as your savior, always saved.

By grace we are saved though faith not by works. Ephesians 2:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2:8&version=KJV)
Nowhere in the bible does it say we can be unsaved.

And yet the creator Himself said in Rev. 3:5 " He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his nangels." :think: Never had a once saved always saved believer explain how a name could be blotted out (unsaved) without it first being in there (saved)...

[smyrna]

The example given stated that he had given his heart, mind, soul and strength to the Lord. As a result of an accident, his mind was no longer his own. The Lord knows this. Jesus came not to condemn but to save. There is a mansion being built as we speak.:D


Isn't that a happy ending/beginning to a sad story?:mrgreen:

[RayMan]

There are 2 main possibilities and the second has 2 main sub-possibilities.
<snip>

The third main possibility would be that Koushi went way over the top on this one instead of setting up a reasonable scenario.

I pick door number three. :angel:


Fascinating thread though.

[Hadassah]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?



Here's a question for you: Do I look like God to you?

[RayMan]

Here's a question for you: Do I look like God to you?

Not really. I have always thought of her as being taller. :cool::cool:

[CID_0687]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?
My gut reaction is yes he is still saved. I say that because he has amnesia which is a mental problem which he has no control over.

But, in the end, for Mr. Hypothetical as well as for all of us...it's in God's hands, He has the final say, and all we can do is hope and pray for the best.

[CID_0687]

Shutes, tried to make you say "damn right." You really are the pope.
You should read some of the PM's he sends. :eek:

[CID_0687]

No need to apologize. I just know that scripture speaks of being "luke warm", so I can only assume( I know I shouldn't do that) that there are still some who go to church for the wrong reasons. I can remember seeing one of the Left Behind movies where the pastor of the church got left behind in the rapture. Boy he was surprised.;)
There's the problem. :D

[CID_0687]

Let me ask you a question.

If you observed one of your Christian brothers or sisters being what you considered to be being "luke warm" or acting in a sinful way, would you approach them about it or just let it go?
Depends on the situation...what are we talking about here? I know folks that I go to church with now, and that I have gone to church with in the past that would say I'm bound for hell because I like to have two or three drinks every night...that's an average night mind you, there are those other occasions where I drink more. I'm causing no harm to myself, or anyone around me by having a drink...it doesn't make me feel like I'm less of a Christian, yet they would say differently. There are other things like this, I'm just using that as an example.

Now of course there are those things, like say cheating on one's spouse. If I was, which I never have and never will, committing adultery I would hope that my brothers and sisters in Christ would confront me on this.

If every time I got on the interstate I cussed and screamed at every car that passed me, that's a problem, although a minor one, but we are told to be angry and sin not...I would want to be confronted on this.

[Clintville]

Once you commit yourself to God, you are His forever, regardless. You will spend eternity with Him. Once saved, always saved.
Even if you later convert? Or in this case get hit on the head and stop.

[Koushi Shinigami]

What an awesomely holy number.

Tell the owl.

[Deak2112]

Really? So was the author of Hebrews just joking with the Christians he was writing to?


Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


The losing salvation position fails to discern the difference between loss of salvation and loss of reward. (1 Corinthians 3).
"he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames," 1 Cor. 3:15.
There are rewards for us in Heaven and we can lose them based on how we served God.
If Hebrews 6:4-6 was the only passage on the subject, we would probably have to conclude Christians can lose their salvation. However, there is an interpretive possibility-even if it is not obvious-that it does not mean this, and may even fit with the notion that Christians cannot lose their salvation.

I think Hebrews 6 clearly refers to Christians (despite the argument of many that it doesn't), but says it is impossible for a Christian to return to original repentance (in its context this is the meaning of repentance) and become born again again, for to do so would require Christ dying all over again. Why? Because his death was sufficient for original salvation and therefore to lose salvation and regain it would mean Christ's death wasn't enough the first time around and would have to be repeated. The author of Hebrews is arguing for the sufficiency of Christ's redemptive and high priestly work. Ironically, if this is the meaning, then the passage is not making the case that salvation can be lost but is assuming that it cannot be.

However, one thing is clear-if Hebrews 6:4-6 does mean a Christian can lose his salvation, then it must also mean that no one who loses his salvation can ever regain it. Yet virtually no one who believes you can lose your salvation actually believe this. (If they did, they would have to say no one can come forward to receive Christ if they ever did before; "you have only one chance at salvation-lose it and it's gone forever.") The notion that salvation would be unavailable to some who seek it in Christ is entirely foreign to Scripture. How can the passage be interpreted to say Christians can lose their salvation without demanding it also teach they can never regain it? The interpreter can't have it both ways. If he doesn't hold to the second position, how can he hold to the first?

I think a bigger noggin scratcher would have been to ask the same question but without the accident. Let's just say that something happened which made him angry at God and then turned from the faith. Either way the answer is the same.

[RayMan]

The losing salvation position fails to discern the difference between loss of salvation and loss of reward. (1 Corinthians 3).
"he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames," 1 Cor. 3:15. <snip>

Morning Deak,
I never use the phrase "losing one's salvation" or any variation of it. I don't for a minute believe one can "lose his/her salvation." Can one knowingly recant their faith in Christ, and cast away their confidence in Him for salvation? Absolutely. That is the main issue the author of Hebrews is dealing with. He is trying to build the faith of the believers he is writing to, who are going through persecution and are tempted to recant their faith in Christ.

1 Cor 3 is talking about reward.

Heb 6 is talking about eternal destiny.

1 Cor 3 is talking about carnality.

Heb 6 is talking about rejecting Christ after having known Him.

[hben]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

Is this a trick question?

If not, then we'll have to break it down and look at the evidence one thing at a time?

A man joins a church,

Big deal, but THIS means nothing when it comes to eternity.

accepts Jesus,

If this was genuine, then he's saved.

repents of his sins,

This is the natural thing for a saved person to do.

is baptized

Following salvation with baptism is the only obedient thing to do.

and is saved.

Great, but I'd say the steps are out of order. This one should have been listed earlier.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time...<snip>...He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination?

Heaven. :pray: :clap:

How does eternal security apply in this case?

No different than any other case. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. ;)

[hben]

Really? So was the author of Hebrews just joking with the Christians he was writing to?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

No, he wasn't joking, but he wasn't contradicting all of the scriptures in the N.T. which support eternal security either. Do I have to explain this scripture again, Ray? You are a sly one, trying to confuse folks with this verse. :naughty:

[meggers49]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

that's for God to decide, but my inclination is, since he has had a head injury and he's not in his right mind, the decisions and actions he takes are not ones that he is culpable for.

consequently, i'd think that he would still attain heaven.

[meggers49]

False.

agreed.

[hben]

I'm an atheist but in our criminal justice system if the man survived and it could be proven his actions were a result of his initial injury, he would not be held accountable for his actions due to a mental defect, why would his God be less merciful?

It would seem a loving and merciful God would not hold a person responsible for actions beyond their control and wouldn't He know this man's true intent?

:clap: :clap: :clap: I may not agree with you on everything, but you hit this baby out of the ballpark. Good answer. :clap: :clap: :clap:

[meggers49]

You are certain about this? Say the doctors and psychologists give him a clean bill of health, other than the memory loss. They say he fully understands what he has done and the import of his actions. As I understand it, there are plenty of sociopaths in our jails right now.

being a sociopath and being a person who is physically disabled and does not have the same capacity are totally different things.

this person in your hypothetical was a moral and ethical man, due to circumstances beyond his control he is no longer.

sociopaths are not of the same vein.

[RayMan]

No, he wasn't joking, but he wasn't contradicting all of the scriptures in the N.T. which support eternal security either. Do I have to explain this scripture again, Ray? You are a sly one, trying to confuse folks with this verse. :naughty:


I'm sorry, but I don't seem to recall seeing that phrase anywhere in the N.T.

Could you point me to the verse which speaks of eternal security for those who recant their faith in Christ?

No need to explain Heb 6 again. You will just confuse the folks again by trying to say it says essentially the same thing as 1 Cor 3. Which it doesn't. By a long shot.


Thank you. :angel:

[hben]

Who's to say he "truly" accepted Christ?

Koushi did. Surely you don't think Koushi would tell us that if it wasn't true. Otherwise this would have been a deceptive question from the get-go.

There are a lot of luke warm Christians sitting in the pews every Sunday. :think::think::think:

But Koushi said this guy accepted Jesus and was saved. I read it with my own eyes, and I know Koushi wouldn't lie...not much anyway. :whistle:

[hben]

In that case.....


I don't know.

That's a tough one.

That's ok, Jesus knows, and He's tougher than Batman. He's tougher than any sin man could ever commit. His grace is greater than the greatest sin.

[hben]

I'm sorry, but I don't seem to recall seeing that phrase anywhere in the N.T.

Could you point me to the verse which speaks of eternal security for those who recant their faith in Christ?

No need to explain Heb 6 again. You will just confuse the folks again by trying to say it says essentially the same thing as 1 Cor 3. Which it doesn't. By a long shot.


Thank you. :angel:

Right after you point the part out to me in Hebrews 6 where it says that a saved person can lose his salvation. :angel:

[Meriweather]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

Interesting question. I keep thinking, "What if it happened in reverse?"

Regarding Henry (Harrison Ford) comes to mind. What if a man was a jerk before the accident, despised anything to do with God and religion, but afterwards, not remembering his life before, becomes dedicated to Christ, joins a church, and is baptized?

[hben]

No need to explain Heb 6 again. You will just confuse the folks again by trying to say it says essentially the same thing as 1 Cor 3. Which it doesn't. By a long shot.

Says you...but you know I trust J. Vernon more than the Pentecostal interpretation. :whistle:

BTW, it didn't originate with him, but like me, he does agree with it. :angel:

[RayMan]

Right after you point the part out to me in Hebrews 6 where it says that a saved person can lose his salvation. :angel:

I never said a saved person can lose his salvation. Nope. Didn't say it.


(Where is that post hben made to Koushi about not putting words in his mouth? Oh, here it is.)


Let me do the putting of words in my own mouth, thank you very much. I don't like it when other people put foreign objects or words in my mouth.

We are in perfect harmony on this point. :angel:

[hben]

I never said a saved person can lose his salvation. Nope. Didn't say it.

(Where is that post hben made to Koushi about not putting words in his mouth? Oh, here it is.)

We are in perfect harmony on this point. :angel:

Ok, then it's time for recess.

[RayMan]

Says you...but you know I trust J. Vernon more than the Pentecostal interpretation. :whistle:

BTW, it didn't originate with him, but like me, he does agree with it. :angel:

To paraphrase what Brother McGee used to say about Pentecostals:

"My Baptist brothers can be wrong if they want to..."

[stereo]

And yet the creator Himself said in Rev. 3:5 " He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his nangels." :think: Never had a once saved always saved believer explain how a name could be blotted out (unsaved) without it first being in there (saved)...


It's not what I meant. I didn't say you can't be unsaved if you never accepted Christ as your savior. Once you get saved your always saved.

[Wake-Up]

You are certain about this? Say the doctors and psychologists give him a clean bill of health, other than the memory loss. They say he fully understands what he has done and the import of his actions. As I understand it, there are plenty of sociopaths in our jails right now.

Perhaps but in a criminal case there is a Judge and Jury to hear the arguments and decide his fate legally. Certainly a good lawyer does not hurt.

Medicine is not always an exact science. There are still many unknowns and the reason all evidence would be presented in court for man to decide. There are sociopaths in jail that have been held accountable just as there are some that have not been convicted that probably should be. Justice is only as perfect as an imperfect man can deliver.

In terms of his ultimate fate, again His God would be the Judge and Jury and for those of faith, His judgement is would go beyond what man can determine.

[CID_0687]

Right after you point the part out to me in Hebrews 6 where it says that a saved person can lose his salvation. :angel:
I don't think a person can "lose their salvation", but I think they can throw it away.

[Mikko]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

He's toast.

[Mikko]

Who's to say he "truly" accepted Christ? There are a lot of luke warm Christians sitting in the pews every Sunday.
:think::think::think:
That's not a parameter in this hypothetical. The scenario's proposition is that he really accepted Christ.

[hben]

To paraphrase what Brother McGee used to say about Pentecostals:

"My Baptist brothers can be wrong if they want to..."

I don't remember hearing him say that line, but it does have a certain J. Vernon tone to it. :lol:

[gpd®]

Let me ask you a question.

If you observed one of your Christian brothers or sisters being what you considered to be being "luke warm" or acting in a sinful way, would you approach them about it or just let it go?

I would say to someone, "we must continue to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

[gpd®]

You should read some of the PM's he sends. :eek:

Remember, the Old Testament prophets used Hebrew type cuss words to rile up the people about God's plan.

[gpd®]

Depends on the situation...what are we talking about here? I know folks that I go to church with now, and that I have gone to church with in the past that would say I'm bound for hell because I like to have two or three drinks every night...that's an average night mind you, there are those other occasions where I drink more. I'm causing no harm to myself, or anyone around me by having a drink...it doesn't make me feel like I'm less of a Christian, yet they would say differently. There are other things like this, I'm just using that as an example.

Now of course there are those things, like say cheating on one's spouse. If I was, which I never have and never will, committing adultery I would hope that my brothers and sisters in Christ would confront me on this.

If every time I got on the interstate I cussed and screamed at every car that passed me, that's a problem, although a minor one, but we are told to be angry and sin not...I would want to be confronted on this.

Didn't Christ say that people were going to criticize Him for being a "bibber."

[gpd®]

Right after you point the part out to me in Hebrews 6 where it says that a saved person can lose his salvation. :angel:

The unforgiveable sin?

[hben]

I don't think a person can "lose their salvation", but I think they can throw it away.

I kind'a think that's what Ray believes, too. Oh well, you guys can't help it...or at least Ray can't. I think he said he used to be a Baptist before he backslid.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the Baptist doctrine...to renew them again unto repentance...is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

He knows this passage very well, or something close to it anyway. :whistle:

Warning: For anyone who doesn't know hben. Please use sarcasm as needed when readiing this.

[gpd®]

I kind'a think that's what Ray believes, too. Oh well, you guys can't help it...or at least Ray can't. I think he said he used to be a Baptist before he backslid.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the Baptist doctrine...to renew them again unto repentance...is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

He knows this passage very well, or something close to it anyway. :whistle:

Warning: For anyone who doesn't know hben. Please use sarcasm as needed when readiing this.

Make that 3.

[CID_0687]

Didn't Christ say that people were going to criticize Him for being a "bibber."
I believe you are correct Brother Dave.

[RayMan]

<snip>
Warning: For anyone who doesn't know hben. Please use sarcasm as needed when readiing this.


I admire the way Texas Baptists throw the rules of grammar to the wind when the mood strikes them.

[gpd®]

I believe you are correct Brother Dave.

I always wondered if wine was a pleasant bi-product of God manifesting Himself in Jesus and coming to earth.:eek:

God to Jesus,"When you get down there, can let me know what this big deal over wine is?"

[CID_0687]

I always wondered if wine was a pleasant bi-product of God manifesting Himself in Jesus and coming to earth.:eek:

God to Jesus,"When you get down there, can let me know what this big deal over wine is?"
Oh wow Dad, if you could only try this, I now understand why they call this the "Nectar of You."

[optrader]

It's not what I meant. I didn't say you can't be unsaved if you never accepted Christ as your savior. Once you get saved your always saved.

The point eluded you. Once a person accepts Jesus, their name goes in the book of life. They are saved. Jesus said "I will not blot his name out of the book of life." If a peron is saved, and their name is in the book, why would Jesus imply He could blot it out it if losing your salvation is impossible? Do you believe Jesus contradicts Himself?

[stereo]

The point eluded you. Once a person accepts Jesus, their name goes in the book of life. They are saved. Jesus said "I will not blot his name out of the book of life." If a peron is saved, and their name is in the book, why would Jesus imply He could blot it out it if losing your salvation is impossible? Do you believe Jesus contradicts Himself?

I don't agree that Jesus implied your name can be blotted out once in the book of life. It is your interpretation. I don't agree that is implied in the references you supplied and I don't think Jesus contradicts Himself. It is a matter of interpretation.

[gpd®]

Oh wow Dad, if you could only try this, I now understand why they call this the "Nectar of You."

Too funny dude.

[beaker]

After contemplating on this hypothetical question for a couple of day, my answer is....

:think:

Hellbound.

:frown:

[Lie Sniper]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

A traumatic brain injury will be picked up as scarring in an MRI. If an MRI can see the damage, I figure God can see it too.

My verdict is that he's saved, assuming he was before the accident.

[Meriweather]

A traumatic brain injury will be picked up as scarring in an MRI. If an MRI can see the damage, I figure God can see it too.

My verdict is that he's saved, assuming he was before the accident.

Is it your position that this man, then, has lost his ability to distinguish right from wrong? Or, perhaps, that he has lost the capacity of free will--that he is driven to act as he does?

(By the way, I have no position on what this man's fate is. It's a great question to reflect upon however.)

[CID_0687]

After contemplating on this hypothetical question for a couple of day, my answer is....

:think:

Hellbound.

:frown:
What if this same man was now mentally retarded because of the head injury, and not amnesia? Would you say the same thing?

I don't think God will punish someone over something they can't control.

[Lie Sniper]

Is it your position that this man, then, has lost his ability to distinguish right from wrong? Or, perhaps, that he has lost the capacity of free will--that he is driven to act as he does?

(By the way, I have no position on what this man's fate is. It's a great question to reflect upon however.)

When we talk of grace, it's my opinion that this would be an excellent situation that calls for God's grace.

My wife, the professor of nursing, tells me that it's very well documented that traumatic brain injuries change personalities, induce memory loss and are a gateway for a whole host of other disorders. Depression, confusion, black outs, emotion irregularities, personality disorders, plus a whole slew of other chronic physical aliments.

You ask about free will? Was it through this man's free will that he intentionally got into an accident? Was it of his own free will and his intention that he suffer severe head trauma and end up in a coma? Was it of his own free will that he suffer memory loss and all the secondary disorders that can result from severe brain trauma?

Its my opinion that free will is not a factor because the accident was an accident. Does God now hold us accountable for things that are not under our control? If so then we have the most unfair God ever.

My wife once knew an alzheimer's patient who was a Nun for 35 years and she now swears like a sailor. She has known stroke victims who actually sound a bit like the OP. They were once vibrant, loving individuals, who after the stroke became violent and hateful people. Their families are devastated because they are not the same person.

Just like the above people, I believe the man in the hypothetical is no longer the man he once was, through no choice or free will of his choosing.

This would be a good time for God's grace.

[Meriweather]

When we talk of grace, it's my opinion that this would be an excellent situation that calls for God's grace.

My wife, the professor of nursing, tells me that it's very well documented that traumatic brain injuries change personalities, induce memory loss and are a gateway for a whole host of other disorders. Depression, confusion, black outs, emotion irregularities, personality disorders, plus a whole slew of other chronic physical aliments.

You ask about free will? Was it through this man's free will that he intentionally got into an accident? Was it of his own free will and his intention that he suffer severe head trauma and end up in a coma? Was it of his own free will that he suffer memory loss and all the secondary disorders that can result from severe brain trauma?

Its my opinion that free will is not a factor because the accident was an accident. Does God now hold us accountable for things that are not under our control? If so then we have the most unfair God ever.

My wife once knew an alzheimer's patient who was a Nun for 35 years and she now swears like a sailor. She has known stroke victims who actually sound a bit like the OP. They were once vibrant, loving individuals, who after the stroke became violent and hateful people. Their families are devastated because they are not the same person.

Just like the above people, I believe the man in the hypothetical is no longer the man he once was, through no choice or free will of his choosing.

This would be a good time for God's grace.


I wasn't thinking about free will being in play in that they got to choose whether or not they were in an accident. I am wondering about free will after the accident. Are they driven to act as they do (which seems the case in many stroke and alzheimer's patients)? In stroke and alzheimer patients, I understand in many cases, the patient may actually be trying to say something else entirely, but swears instead. Is the same true of our accident victim? Is he trying to say something else, or does he swear because he wants to swear?

I can definitely understand a person no longer having control. Absolutely, in that case, God's grace would come into play. But what about for the person who still understands right from wrong; who can choose to act with love, but decides he does not want to be bothered? For example, what if it wasn't a brain injury. What if a person was paralyzed, and reacted to everyone and everything with bitterness and anger for the rest of his life?

[Lie Sniper]

I wasn't thinking about free will being in play in that they got to choose whether or not they were in an accident. I am wondering about free will after the accident. Are they driven to act as they do (which seems the case in many stroke and alzheimer's patients)? In stroke and alzheimer patients, I understand in many cases, the patient may actually be trying to say something else entirely, but swears instead. Is the same true of our accident victim? Is he trying to say something else, or does he swear because he wants to swear?

Remembering that we are working with a hypothetical, we are also working under some assumed truths. 1) We assume he was a Christian. 2) By his actions, we assume that he was striving to be like Christ. The question is, would he have continued down that path if the accident had never occurred? If 1 and 2 are true then we can answer yes to this question.

So now we have this traumatic brain injury. The memory loss and behavior change are indicators of his personality essentially being altered to the point that he is no longer the person that he once was. He is now doing things that he would have never done, before the accident. The person who gave his heart to Christ is still inside, but he may no longer have self control over his ability to choose.



I can definitely understand a person no longer having control. Absolutely, in that case, God's grace would come into play. But what about for the person who still understands right from wrong; who can choose to act with love, but decides he does not want to be bothered? For example, what if it wasn't a brain injury. What if a person was paralyzed, and reacted to everyone and everything with bitterness and anger for the rest of his life?

I hear you. As I said, we are working with assumed truths. We assume he was Christian and we assume he would have continued to be Christian. If this is true, then it's my opinion that he would be saved. I'll also add that if it were not a brain altering injury, I would say he chose to deny his faith and reject goodness.

Fire Watch had the best answer. As human beings we have no way to determine this guys fate. And actually, I don't usually spend much trying to determine the fate of others.

I still have my own fate to worry about.;)

[Reeder]

The losing salvation position fails to discern the difference between loss of salvation and loss of reward. (1 Corinthians 3).
"he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames," 1 Cor. 3:15.
There are rewards for us in Heaven and we can lose them based on how we served God.
If Hebrews 6:4-6 was the only passage on the subject, we would probably have to conclude Christians can lose their salvation. However, there is an interpretive possibility-even if it is not obvious-that it does not mean this, and may even fit with the notion that Christians cannot lose their salvation.

I think Hebrews 6 clearly refers to Christians (despite the argument of many that it doesn't), but says it is impossible for a Christian to return to original repentance (in its context this is the meaning of repentance) and become born again again, for to do so would require Christ dying all over again. Why? Because his death was sufficient for original salvation and therefore to lose salvation and regain it would mean Christ's death wasn't enough the first time around and would have to be repeated. The author of Hebrews is arguing for the sufficiency of Christ's redemptive and high priestly work. Ironically, if this is the meaning, then the passage is not making the case that salvation can be lost but is assuming that it cannot be.

However, one thing is clear-if Hebrews 6:4-6 does mean a Christian can lose his salvation, then it must also mean that no one who loses his salvation can ever regain it. Yet virtually no one who believes you can lose your salvation actually believe this. (If they did, they would have to say no one can come forward to receive Christ if they ever did before; "you have only one chance at salvation-lose it and it's gone forever.") The notion that salvation would be unavailable to some who seek it in Christ is entirely foreign to Scripture. How can the passage be interpreted to say Christians can lose their salvation without demanding it also teach they can never regain it? The interpreter can't have it both ways. If he doesn't hold to the second position, how can he hold to the first?

I think a bigger noggin scratcher would have been to ask the same question but without the accident. Let's just say that something happened which made him angry at God and then turned from the faith. Either way the answer is the same.Huh?

[CID_0687]

Huh?
Yeah, that's what I said. I read that at 2 o'clock this morning though...I figured it was just because I was tired...apparently not.

[Reeder]

Yeah, that's what I said. I read that at 2 o'clock this morning though...I figured it was just because I was tired...apparently not.I came away from that post knowing less than I did before - if that's possible. I wonder if I can now fall into the same category as the guy in the OP? I am NO LONGER responsible for my actions!

[CID_0687]

I came away from that post knowing less than I did before - if that's possible. I wonder if I can now fall into the same category as the guy in the OP? I am NO LONGER responsible for my actions!
:))

When I got done reading that all I could think was, "Is you is, or is you isn't? Is you is or is you isn't?"

I still doesn't know.

[Gabby]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

God is the only one who could answer this because only God know what this man is truely going through.

IMHO this man would get a lot of slack since the senario you set up is that he loses a lot of control of his behavior to problems with physical injury and brain chemistry disturbances.

[Deak2112]

Morning Deak,
I never use the phrase "losing one's salvation" or any variation of it. I don't for a minute believe one can "lose his/her salvation." Can one knowingly recant their faith in Christ, and cast away their confidence in Him for salvation? Absolutely. That is the main issue the author of Hebrews is dealing with. He is trying to build the faith of the believers he is writing to, who are going through persecution and are tempted to recant their faith in Christ.

1 Cor 3 is talking about reward.

Heb 6 is talking about eternal destiny.

1 Cor 3 is talking about carnality.

Heb 6 is talking about rejecting Christ after having known Him.

I wasn't comparing the two. I was showing that you can lose eternal rewards based on works but not salvation. Then I was pointing out the misinterpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6. It was a two part post.

[beaker]

What if this same man was now mentally retarded because of the head injury, and not amnesia? Would you say the same thing?

I don't think God will punish someone over something they can't control.

Yes, it would be a different senario to me if it was mental retardation that was the result of the injuries.

But in this case, he was given a clean bill of health, with only amnesia.

The fruits that come from the Spirit, amnesia or not, IMO, would not produce the violence, blasphamy, and other actions that came after the accident. Those actions came from somewhere, where? They didn't come from the Holy Spirit, because only good comes from God. I believe they came from the true nature of what was in this man's heart, regardless of how he acted in his previous life. When the Holy Spirit truly takes over, the actions of this man, accident or not, would not have produced what it did in the latter part of his life.

IMO, he never had salvation.

I may be wrong though, only God truly know what lies in a man's heart.

[Lie Sniper]

Yes, it would be a different senario to me if it was mental retardation that was the result of the injuries.

But in this case, he was given a clean bill of health, with only amnesia.

The fruits that come from the Spirit, amnesia or not, IMO, would not produce the violence, blasphamy, and other actions that came after the accident. Those actions came from somewhere, where? They didn't come from the Holy Spirit, because only good comes from God. I believe they came from the true nature of what was in this man's heart, regardless of how he acted in his previous life. When the Holy Spirit truly takes over, the actions of this man, accident or not, would not have produced what it did in the latter part of his life.

IMO, he never had salvation.

I may be wrong though, only God truly know what lies in a man's heart.

I pray that you never have a brain altering accident and that God is more forgiving then you.

[Reeder]

:))

When I got done reading that all I could think was, "Is you is, or is you isn't? Is you is or is you isn't?"

I still doesn't know.
:))

[jantwenty1981]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

For I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to KEEP that which I have committed unto him against that day. 2 Tim. 1:12

[hben]

I admire the way Texas Baptists throw the rules of grammar to the wind when the mood strikes them.

What's grammar got to do with sarcasm? For that matter, what do rules have to do with sarcasm? I already know what Texas Baptists have to do with sarcasm. :eh:

[RayMan]

I wasn't comparing the two. I was showing that you can lose eternal rewards based on works but not salvation. Then I was pointing out the misinterpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6. It was a two part post.

Actually, the misinterpretation of Heb 6 is yours. :cool:

IMO of course.

[RayMan]

What's grammar got to do with sarcasm? For that matter, what do rules have to do with sarcasm? I already know what Texas Baptists have to do with sarcasm. :eh:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hben http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=61246991#post61246991)
<snip>
Warning: For anyone who doesn't know hben. Please use sarcasm as needed when readiing this.


As someone who has earned a Master's Degree in Sarcastitude I can assure that one does not apply sarcasm when reading. One applies it when writing.

[Reeder]

actually, the misinterpretation of heb 6 is yours. :cool:

Imo of course.

+1

[beaker]

I pray that you never have a brain altering accident and that God is more forgiving then you.

Thank you for praying for me. I need all of the prayers I can get!;)

[hben]

Morning Deak,
I never use the phrase "losing one's salvation" or any variation of it. I don't for a minute believe one can "lose his/her salvation." Can one knowingly recant their faith in Christ, and cast away their confidence in Him for salvation? Absolutely. That is the main issue the author of Hebrews is dealing with. He is trying to build the faith of the believers he is writing to, who are going through persecution and are tempted to recant their faith in Christ.

1 Cor 3 is talking about reward.

Heb 6 is talking about eternal destiny.

1 Cor 3 is talking about carnality.

Heb 6 is talking about rejecting Christ after having known Him.

The Bible according to Ray. The Bible doesn't say what you just said it said.

[hben]

As someone who has earned a Master's Degree in Sarcastitude I can assure that one does not apply sarcasm when reading. One applies it when writing.

I agree with 50% of that statement. :cool:

[hben]

+1

What +1 equals 6?...Hebrews that is.

[RayMan]

The Bible according to Ray. The Bible doesn't say what you just said it said.

Does so. :mrgreen:

[RayMan]

I agree with 50% of that statement. :cool:

Great.

Now CID has to pay up.

He bet me that you and I could never get in agreement on anything.

[hben]

Great.

Now CID has to pay up.

He bet me that you and I could never get in agreement on anything.

I agree with you. CID HAS to pay up. Now, that we've agreed twice, does CID have to pay twice? And does he have to pay both of us since it took two to agree, or does he only have to pay you since he bet you instead of me? These may sound like meaningless questions to the average forum passer-by, but to me these are very important questions which beg to be answered. :mrgreen:

[THE LIGHT]

it would be impossible for anyone but god to determine this mans fate.

+1

[THE LIGHT]

Here's a hypothetical.

A man joins a church, accepts Jesus, repents of his sins, is baptized and is saved. He lives the life of one who has truely accepted Jesus. He is active in his church for many years. All the fruits he bears show that he is indeed a true Christian.

Then one day he suffers a terrible accident. Major head trauma and is in a coma for a long time. Finally he regains consiousness and physically recovers. However, he has total amnesia. In addition, his wife notices his personality has changed. Where he was once cheerful and joyous, he is now bitter, angry and sadistic. He refuses to attend church again, and disavows any acceptance of God or Jesus. He embarks on a life of sin and debauchery. Drunkenness, cheating, lying, stealing, fighting are now common in his behavour. He eventually gets into a brawl where he kills his opponent. He is also injured again and dies, cursing God and all those around him.

What is his final destination? How does eternal security apply in this case?

One thing to remember is that Salvation is obtained through confession with ones mouth and belief with ones heart. Thus the mind is not involved. We become saved in spite of our minds and not because of them. The Bible says, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death (Proverbs 14:12)." What happens to our minds in the short term should not have an effect on our relationship with God. However, having said that, we must constantly renew our minds (Romans 12:2, Romans 8:6, 2Corinthians 10:5) to keep our heart guarded against the attack from Satan. It is my belief that someone who believed with all their heart in the Lord prior to an accident like that would be able to renew his mind once again.

[optrader]

I don't agree that Jesus implied your name can be blotted out once in the book of life. It is your interpretation. I don't agree that is implied in the references you supplied and I don't think Jesus contradicts Himself. It is a matter of interpretation.

How do you interpret Jesus' quote?

[hben]

The point eluded you. Once a person accepts Jesus, their name goes in the book of life. They are saved. Jesus said "I will not blot his name out of the book of life." If a peron is saved, and their name is in the book, why would Jesus imply He could blot it out it if losing your salvation is impossible? Do you believe Jesus contradicts Himself?

I am thinking that Jesus knew all the insecure baby Christians who would think it was possible to lose their salvation, so He made sure that they understood that He wouldn't blot anyones name out once they had trusted Him completely. That is why He said it very clearly, "I will not blot his name out of the book of life" rather than saying, "I will blot his name out of the book of life". I don't understand the problem. It seems to me that He made it very clear. NOT MEANS NOT. ;)

[optrader]

I am thinking that Jesus knew all the insecure baby Christians who would think it was possible to lose their salvation, so He made sure that they understood that He wouldn't blot anyones name out once they had trusted Him completely. That is why He said it very clearly, "I will not blot his name out of the book of life" rather than saying, "I will blot his name out of the book of life". I don't understand the problem. It seems to me that He made it very clear. NOT MEANS NOT. ;)

Brother H, I really do prefer your way of thinking on this. In fact, I am hoping this bit of Baptist doctrine is true. The problem I have is with the first part of that scripture;

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Jesus is talking to he that overcometh, shall not be blotted out. What about he that doesn't overcometh? Consider Luke 13:3 " I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

How can we overcome without first repenting? If we don't repent, we don't overcome. what then happens to that person? This is what I'm getting at...

[hben]

Brother H, I really do prefer your way of thinking on this. In fact, I am hoping this bit of Baptist doctrine is true. The problem I have is with the first part of that scripture;

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Jesus is talking to he that overcometh, shall not be blotted out. What about he that doesn't overcometh? Consider Luke 13:3 " I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

How can we overcome without first repenting? If we don't repent, we don't overcome. what then happens to that person? This is what I'm getting at...

Not to worry brother. No problem...God settled that for me years ago. To solve the problem, just answer the question, who will overcome? And the Bible has the answer.

1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[RayMan]

Not to worry brother. No problem...God settled that for me years ago. To solve the problem, just answer the question, who will overcome? And the Bible has the answer.

1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.



What if someone abandons his faith in Christ, like the people addressed in the book of Hebrews were warned against doing?

Something besides the patented and pat Baptist response "they were never really saved in the first place," would be greatly

appreciated.

BTW - Context is a beautiful thing when studying scripture.

[hben]

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

What if someone abandons his faith in Christ, like the people addressed in the book of Hebrews were warned against doing?

Impossible since Christ has taken care of that. You really are hung up on the Hebrews passage, aren't you? No wonder you left those old Baptist and joined up with the Pentecostals. If I interpreted Hebrews 6 as you do, then I would have done the same thing.

Something besides the patented and pat Baptist response "they were never really saved in the first place," would be greatly appreciated.

I thought we had already been over this, and you should know that I don't believe they were never saved in the first place. Your memory is not what it used to be...otherwise we wouldn't keep going in these circles which always end back up at Hebrews 6.

BTW - Context is a beautiful thing when studying scripture.

Absolutely.

[RayMan]

Impossible since Christ has taken care of that. You really are hung up on the Hebrews passage, aren't you? No wonder you left those old Baptist and joined up with the Pentecostals. If I interpreted Hebrews 6 as you do, then I would have done the same thing.



I thought we had already been over this, and you should know that I don't believe they were never saved in the first place. Your memory is not what it used to be...otherwise we wouldn't keep going in these circles which always end back up at Hebrews 6.



Absolutely.

I wasn't referencing Heb 6. I was referencing the entire book. Paul wrote the book to encourage them not to cast away the confidence they had in Christ Jesus.

I was not asking you if the folk in the book of Hebrews were never saved. I was asking about someone in the here and now who recants their faith in Christ.

[Deak2112]

Hebrews also says this pretty plainly-Hebrews 13:5 "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, 'I will never leave you nor forsake you.'"

I'll let you guys wrestle over that.

DISCLAIMER: Haven't read the whole thread. My apologies if this verse has been cited.

[hben]

I wasn't referencing Heb 6. I was referencing the entire book. Paul wrote the book to encourage them not to cast away the confidence they had in Christ Jesus.

I was not asking you if the folk in the book of Hebrews were never saved. I was asking about someone in the here and now who recants their faith in Christ.

Oh, why didn't you just say so? Then in that case, the answer is NO. How can a person unbelieve something once it becomes real to them? Then, it goes from believing to knowing. Are you saying you think someone can believe in Christ, receive the Holy Spirit into their heart and then stop believing that He's there after He becomes a reality in their life? This is too complicated for me to comprehend, so I guess I'll just keep on believing that He would never leave anyone after they've believed and received.

[hben]

Hebrews also says this pretty plainly-Hebrews 13:5 "Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, 'I will never leave you nor forsake you.'"

I'll let you guys wrestle over that.

DISCLAIMER: Haven't read the whole thread. My apologies if this verse has been cited.

The Lord does work in mysterious ways. I just refered to it before you posted this. When I pushed Submit Reply, I saw your post with the same verse I had just refered to. God is good.

[optrader]

Not to worry brother. No problem...God settled that for me years ago. To solve the problem, just answer the question, who will overcome? And the Bible has the answer.

1Jn:5:5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I know what happens to people who overcome. I recently read a book called What hath God wrought. This was a great book. At the end there was a section on Elvis which asserted he was saved in his early life, accordingly, he is in heaven. My problem is, he was a complete hedonist who indulged his every whim and died a miserable broken down drug addict on his own toilet. If a self indulgent guy like Elvis is in heaven because he was saved as a child, why should any other professing Christian not live likewise, if they have that assurance?

[Deak2112]

Oh, why didn't you just say so? Then in that case, the answer is NO. How can a person unbelieve something once it becomes real to them? Then, it goes from believing to knowing. Are you saying you think someone can believe in Christ, receive the Holy Spirit into their heart and then stop believing that He's there after He becomes a reality in their life? This is too complicated for me to comprehend, so I guess I'll just keep on believing that He would never leave anyone after they've believed and received.

You are exactly right. In the situation that Ray was saying, it is still an issue of whether or not they were truly saved because one who truly is will not turn from the faith as suggested. They may backslide a little though. For when we are saved we are new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/2-corinthians-5.htm#17)), have the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-14.htm#26); 1 Thessalonians 4:8 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/1-thessalonians-4.htm#8)), and now want to live for Christ.

[Deak2112]

I know what happens to people who overcome. I recently read a book called What hath God wrought. This was a great book. At the end there was a section on Elvis which asserted he was saved in his early life, accordingly, he is in heaven. My problem is, he was a complete hedonist who indulged his every whim and died a miserable broken down drug addict on his own toilet. If a self indulgent guy like Elvis is in heaven because he was saved as a child, why should any other professing Christian not live likewise, if they have that assurance?

Keeping your salvation is a wrong incentive to do good works. The incentive to do good works is in our eternal rewards in Heaven. Salvation is not works based but eternal rewards are.

Plus, we don't have the authority to judge whether or not Elvis was saved. My dad claimed he was saved as a shild but he was wrong and just recently got truly saved.

[hben]

I know what happens to people who overcome. I recently read a book called What hath God wrought. This was a great book. At the end there was a section on Elvis which asserted he was saved in his early life, accordingly, he is in heaven. My problem is, he was a complete hedonist who indulged his every whim and died a miserable broken down drug addict on his own toilet. If a self indulgent guy like Elvis is in heaven because he was saved as a child, why should any other professing Christian not live likewise, if they have that assurance?

I have always believed Elvis was saved, but God didn't ask my opinion. Only God and Elvis know whether or not he truly trusted Christ to save him at some point of time in his life. I have heard too many testimonies from his friends to doubt it. As for what other carnal Christians there are out there, I have no idea, but the question I would ask is do they love God and others. Love is the only true measuring stick of a Christian. In the case of Elvis, he helped more people than most of us will ever be able to for obvious reasons. He gave away more than I'll ever make in my lifetime.

[hben]

you are exactly right. In the situation that ray was saying, it is still an issue of whether or not they were truly saved because one who truly is will not turn from the faith as suggested. They may backslide a little though. for when we are saved we are new creatures (2 corinthians 5:17 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/2-corinthians-5.htm#17)), have the conviction of the holy spirit (john 14:26 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-14.htm#26); 1 thessalonians 4:8 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/1-thessalonians-4.htm#8)), and now want to live for christ.

Amen, brother...aaaaamen!!!

[daver]

Elvis may be saved, that's between him and God. But the point that isn't mentioned here is that while he went through a conversion in his youth and subsequently lived a life that was at best questionable, the real issue is that it is reported by one of his bodyguards that he rededicated his life to Christ just a matter of days before he died.

[hben]

Elvis may be saved, that's between him and God. But the point that isn't mentioned here is that while he went through a conversion in his youth and subsequently lived a life that was at best questionable, the real issue is that it is reported by one of his bodyguards that he rededicated his life to Christ just a matter of days before he died.

I remember reading or hearing that somewhere, but I had forgotten about it. I wouldn't have wanted to walk in his shoes for all of his money and his future ex-son-in-law's money put together. God gave him a special gift, and he ended up feeling pressured to perform all the worldly songs that made him rich, but after his shows, everyone in Vegas who wanted to see him had to come to his room and partake in gospel music all hours of the night. He never publicized that, but I know that many heard the gospel in his hotel room that would have never set foot in a church house.

[optrader]

I have always believed Elvis was saved, but God didn't ask my opinion. Only God and Elvis know whether or not he truly trusted Christ to save him at some point of time in his life. I have heard too many testimonies from his friends to doubt it. As for what other carnal Christians there are out there, I have no idea, but the question I would ask is do they love God and others. Love is the only true measuring stick of a Christian. In the case of Elvis, he helped more people than most of us will ever be able to for obvious reasons. He gave away more than I'll ever make in my lifetime.

I do hope Elvis was saved. The point I am making is the example he set. I know when I was saved, Jesus sent me the Holy Spirit, my life began to change. The things I have always loved doing, the people I loved to hang around have changed. In other words, the worldly things I used to cherish are no longer important, and in fact, most of those things now really bother me. I am not proclaiming my self righteousness here, just pointing out the experience I'm sure all true Christians experience. People who know me can point to me then, and now, and can point out a noticeable change.

When we witness to someone, our lives should be a testimony to the power and love of Christ that was able to change and save us. What is Elvis' testimony? There are many people who would look at Elvis' life and say "Wow, I can live like Elvis, I can pursue money and worldly pleasures, live the life he lived and still be saved! Hallelujah brother!! Bring on Jesus!" What could we say? How could we then convince someone that living the way Elvis did was probably not the way the Lord would have wanted him to? If a person prayed for salvation, and then did not have any change of heart, or a change in their lifestyle, and continued in their sinful ways, how could the person even know whether or not they received the Holy Spirit if nothing about them changed? How would they know if they are repenting?

True, Elvis was a generous person, he did a lot of good things. I DON'T know whether or not he was saved, but I do know his works did him no good towards his salvation.

I understand backsliding, I certainly have done that more times than I care to admit. Am I am looking for answers to questions that just aren't important? I just would like to see Christians behave like Christians so that we have a consistant testimony to give to the world. We are the only Bible many people will ever read...

[Koushi Shinigami]

Keeping your salvation is a wrong incentive to do good works. The incentive to do good works is in our eternal rewards in Heaven. Salvation is not works based but eternal rewards are.

Plus, we don't have the authority to judge whether or not Elvis was saved. My dad claimed he was saved as a shild but he was wrong and just recently got truly saved.


Seems to be a lot of uncertanty in this whole "I've been saved" thing. Beggs the question, how does one really know for sure before one dies and stands before God?

Lost soul: "But, but, but.... I was SAVED!!!!"
God. "Nope, sorry. You were mistaken."

[beaker]

You are exactly right. In the situation that Ray was saying, it is still an issue of whether or not they were truly saved because one who truly is will not turn from the faith as suggested. They may backslide a little though. For when we are saved we are new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/2-corinthians-5.htm#17)), have the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/john-14.htm#26); 1 Thessalonians 4:8 (http://www.allaboutgod.com/truth/1-thessalonians-4.htm#8)), and now want to live for Christ.


Wow, I said the same thing, and got bashed for not having enough forgiveness in me.

:cry:

Originally Posted by Lie Sniper http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=61284931#post61284931)
I pray that you never have a brain altering accident and that God is more forgiving then you.

[RayMan]

Wow, I said the same thing, and got bashed for not having enough forgiveness in me.

:cry:

Don't be sad little beaker.

Somebody will probably bash Deak...:cool:

[beaker]

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll47/beakerboysracing/Bwaaa.gif

Don't be sad little beaker.

Somebody will probably bash Deak...:cool:

[hben]

For I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to KEEP that which I have committed unto him against that day. 2 Tim. 1:12

I love that verse...not to mention the hymn that was inpired by the verse.

[hben]

Wow, I said the same thing, and got bashed for not having enough forgiveness in me.

:cry:

No offense Beaker, but I didn't get the same thing from your post that I did from Deak's, but it may only be because you are like me and Dr. Pepper..."misunderstood".