What is God's Grace?

[Lie Sniper]

What is God's Grace?
If you are Christian, you most likely hear or say that word quite often.

By the Grace of God, through Gods Grace, Grace be to God, Amazing Grace, when you pray before a meal you may even say Grace.

There may be hundreds of way to use this word in reference to God.
So what does God's Grace mean to you?

[gpd®]

Mercy is not getting what you deserve.
Grace is getting what you don't deserve.

[Meriweather]

What is God's Grace?
If you are Christian, you most likely hear or say that word quite often.

By the Grace of God, through Gods Grace, Grace be to God, Amazing Grace, when you pray before a meal you may even say Grace.

There may be hundreds of way to use this word in reference to God.
So what does God's Grace mean to you?


I want to ponder this a bit more. It's a good question.

[gpd®]

I want to ponder this a bit more. It's a good question.

The key is keeping it simple. The enemy of our souls would like us to think that grace is complicated.

[GMScott]

Simply put, Grace is an acronym for:

God's

Riches

At

Christ's

Expense

Ponder away!!

[MobyMule]

From and LDS viewpoint and from lds.org

Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20–22; 2 Nephi 9:6–13).

Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8–10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8–9; James 2:17–22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).

The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).

[Koushi Shinigami]

Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth.

[gpd®]

Simply put, Grace is an acronym for:

God's

Riches

At

Christ's

Expense

Ponder away!!


Exactly what I wrote.

[Semi-Sweet]

Grace, like God, defies adequate definition. Grace is the kindness and graciousness of God. There are stories of grace that define it's nature.

The story of Adam and Eve is the first grace story. Adam and Eve sinned by violating God's clearly laid down law. But grace triumphed over law. God owed Adam and Eve nothing. They willfully sinned defiantly doing what they knew to be wrong - and deserved to die. But God showed mercy. They did not die when they sinned, as law demanded, but lived on for centuries, having a family and apparently living a constructive life, even if difficult. We may presume they died in peace, certainly at an old age.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Grace, like God, defies adequate definition. Grace is the kindness and graciousness of God. There are stories of grace that define it's nature.

The story of Adam and Eve is the first grace story. Adam and Eve sinned by violating God's clearly laid down law. But grace triumphed over law. God owed Adam and Eve nothing. They willfully sinned defiantly doing what they knew to be wrong - and deserved to die. But God showed mercy. They did not die when they sinned, as law demanded, but lived on for centuries, having a family and apparently living a constructive life, even if difficult. We may presume they died in peace, certainly at an old age.

I'm not sure how merciful that was. They toiled and scratched for their very survival for hundreds of years. Saw one son murder another son and ended up losing both. Just kill 'em and be done with it. Why torture them and the rest of us?

[gpd®]

I'm not sure how merciful that was. They toiled and scratched for their very survival for hundreds of years. Saw one son murder another son and ended up losing both. Just kill 'em and be done with it. Why torture them and the rest of us?

How can we compare our ethics, emotions and feeelings with those of people from 10,000 years ago?

(Just playing Koushi's advocate;))

[Semi-Sweet]

I'm not sure how merciful that was. They toiled and scratched for their very survival for hundreds of years. Saw one son murder another son and ended up losing both. Just kill 'em and be done with it. Why torture them and the rest of us?

I don't know. I am tired. :angel:

[Meriweather]

I'm not sure how merciful that was. They toiled and scratched for their very survival for hundreds of years. Saw one son murder another son and ended up losing both. Just kill 'em and be done with it. Why torture them and the rest of us?

Because for all its sorrows and troubles, life is still worth living?

[smyrna]

What is God's Grace?
If you are Christian, you most likely hear or say that word quite often.

By the Grace of God, through Gods Grace, Grace be to God, Amazing Grace, when you pray before a meal you may even say Grace.

There may be hundreds of way to use this word in reference to God.
So what does God's Grace mean to you?

forgiveness when deserving death

[Meriweather]

What is God's Grace?
If you are Christian, you most likely hear or say that word quite often.

By the Grace of God, through Gods Grace, Grace be to God, Amazing Grace, when you pray before a meal you may even say Grace.

There may be hundreds of way to use this word in reference to God.
So what does God's Grace mean to you?

God's grace is that which takes who and what I am and then empowers what I can naturally do into something greater.

[Semi-Sweet]

What is God's Grace?
If you are Christian, you most likely hear or say that word quite often.

By the Grace of God, through Gods Grace, Grace be to God, Amazing Grace, when you pray before a meal you may even say Grace.

There may be hundreds of way to use this word in reference to God.
So what does God's Grace mean to you?

God promises abundant grace, abundant mercy, and an abundant entrance into heaven.

Paul could say 1 Timothy 1:14. "and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

The measure of grace depends on the needs of the disciple.

[Lie Sniper]

God promises abundant grace, abundant mercy, and an abundant entrance into heaven.

Paul could say 1 Timothy 1:14. "and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus."

The measure of grace depends on the needs of the disciple.

Grace of our Lord overflowed. The scripture you quoted implies an abundance, or more then is necessary.

You added that it was dependent on the needs of the disciple.

Which is it?

[Lie Sniper]

Thanks everyone who replied.

The replies, for the most part, mirror what goes on in this forum on a regular basis.

It would seem that some of us think that grace is sufficient while others think that we do our part in our own salvation and then God's grace takes us the rest of the way.

I asked this question, because I wasn't really sure what I believe. I'm still not sure, but again thanks for the replies.

Some of you may be thinking, that my discovery was always obvious. Well I knew that this was the case, but I thought by asking the question, something would be said that would help me clarify my position.

Let me ask you this:

If you are secure in you position, what is it that affirms and strengthens you in your belief that your understanding of grace is correct?

eta- Aside from the Holy Spirit convincing you, what else?

[Semi-Sweet]

Grace of our Lord overflowed. The scripture you quoted implies an abundance, or more then is necessary.

You added that it was dependent on the needs of the disciple.

Which is it?

I didn't mean to be confusing, that was not a good choice of words.

Hbr 4:16 "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

The words of Paul in Romans 5:20 shows where the apostle placed grace. "Where sin was thus multiplied, grace immeasurably exceeded it." Or as some versions have it. . ."Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."

The first rendering brings out what the second does not, that there are two different Greek words for abound, making it mean something like. . "Where sin overflowed, grace flooded in. It means that grace overflows for us all, regardless of the measure of our sin. God does not give more grace to one and less to another, depending on the degree of his sin.

God never says, "This is an average man, with an ordinary amount of sin, so I will give him an average amount of grace." God's grace overflows, saving us even when sin is abundant in our lives, and it is abundant in us all.

[StoneScratcher]

snip
Let me ask you this:

If you are secure in you position, what is it that affirms and strengthens you in your belief that your understanding of grace is correct?

eta- Aside from the Holy Spirit convincing you, what else?

Grace, to me, is an overwhelming sense that induces me to give outwardly. It is an unplanned event, and has nothing to do with me or about me.

In fact, if there is a "me" in the equation, it's not grace. And I don't have to check for this (if it has "me" in it), because this overwhelming sense overrides all aspects of me. It will take me to a place where I am certain (without needing to verify) that what I sense is pure grace. And I act on this, in the purest sense of not having me move into worldly thoughts of "how will I do look to others" and thoughts like that. I will not care what anyone thinks, their judgement doesn't matter. Grace doesn't require courage to act, it is overwhelming courage in itself. You have no doubt, but you do not wrap yourself in any outward "noble" praise during or afterwards. Grace can be the smallest gift but when given, it is received, not in the form of the gift itself, but in the form of realization that grace tethers each to the other on a level which is beyond the lowly existence of this world. It is profoundly powerful, and sadly, usually ignored. Grace knocks on our hearts daily, that tiny rapping which is covered over by the ticking clock, the buzzing cellphone, the boiling pot, the bills yelling to be paid, and thoughts of "how will this help me?" & "should I even bother, I'm busy you know!"

[Mikko]

What is God's Grace?
If you are Christian, you most likely hear or say that word quite often.

By the Grace of God, through Gods Grace, Grace be to God, Amazing Grace, when you pray before a meal you may even say Grace.

There may be hundreds of way to use this word in reference to God.
So what does God's Grace mean to you?
Grace is unearned, unconditional love. Now as to what constitutes God's grace, that description varies from one anthropogenic religious system to another.

[darknessesedge]

Simply put, Grace is an acronym for:

God's

Riches

At

Christ's

Expense

Ponder away!!
I like that..thanx!!

[Mikko]

Simply put, Grace is an acronym for:

God's

Riches

At

Christ's

Expense

Ponder away!!

No pondering necessary in the face of the obvious:

If it is an anybody's expense, then, by definition, it is not grace. It doesn't matter who earned it for whom; if it's earned, it isn't grace.

[Meriweather]

Thanks everyone who replied.

The replies, for the most part, mirror what goes on in this forum on a regular basis.

It would seem that some of us think that grace is sufficient while others think that we do our part in our own salvation and then God's grace takes us the rest of the way.

I asked this question, because I wasn't really sure what I believe. I'm still not sure, but again thanks for the replies.

Some of you may be thinking, that my discovery was always obvious. Well I knew that this was the case, but I thought by asking the question, something would be said that would help me clarify my position.

Let me ask you this:

If you are secure in you position, what is it that affirms and strengthens you in your belief that your understanding of grace is correct?

eta- Aside from the Holy Spirit convincing you, what else?


I haven't given up on this yet, Snipes. It's the most difficult post I've ever tried to compose.

[GMScott]

No ponering necessary in the face of the obvious:

If it is an anybody's expense, then, by definition, it is not grace. It doesn't matter who earned it for whom; if it's earned, it isn't grace.

??????????????????????????

Not sure what yer' getting at with this??

Elaborate, please??

[Mikko]

??????????????????????????

Not sure what yer' getting at with this??

Elaborate, please??

http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/g/grace.htm

Definition: Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor we can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor.


Notice that it says grace is unmerited favor. If we take that definition as literally true and universally applicable, then we must conclude that if it is merited by any human being, no matter whom, on behalf of any or all other humans, then it is, by definition, merited, hence it is not grace. In other words, if it comes at anyone's expense, it is not grace. It is not a free gift. Somebody had to pay for it. True grace, then, is totally and absolutely unconditional, unearned, favor, bestowal of good, and love.

[Semi-Sweet]

http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/g/grace.htm




Notice that it says grace is unmerited favor. I we take that definition as literally true and universally applicable, then we must conclude that if it is merited by any human being, no matter whom, on behalf of any or all other humans, then it is, by definition, not merited, hence it is not grace. In other words, if it comes at anyone's expense, it is not grace. It is not a free gift. Somebody had to pay for it. True grace, then, is totally and absolutely unconditional, unearned, favor, bestowal of good, and love.

:clap:

[TaylorW65]

http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/g/grace.htm




Notice that it says grace is unmerited favor. I we take that definition as literally true and universally applicable, then we must conclude that if it is merited by any human being, no matter whom, on behalf of any or all other humans, then it is, by definition, not merited, hence it is not grace. In other words, if it comes at anyone's expense, it is not grace. It is not a free gift. Somebody had to pay for it. True grace, then, is totally and absolutely unconditional, unearned, favor, bestowal of good, and love.


Let me be another who gives this a hearty Amen! :clap:

[StoneScratcher]

http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/g/grace.htm




Notice that it says grace is unmerited favor. I we take that definition as literally true and universally applicable, then we must conclude that if it is merited by any human being, no matter whom, on behalf of any or all other humans, then it is, by definition, not merited, hence it is not grace. In other words, if it comes at anyone's expense, it is not grace. It is not a free gift. Somebody had to pay for it. True grace, then, is totally and absolutely unconditional, unearned, favor, bestowal of good, and love.

Isn't it our duty to be vessels, and when called, throw worldly things aside to obey God's calling, and be vessels which pour grace for the Lord?

Is it the receiver of grace who has grace?

Or is it the giver of grace who has grace?

Or both, as One, tethered to One through and by grace?

I hope I am explaining this correctly...if not, I'll explain further if someone wants me to clarify anything.

Thanks!

[Mikko]

I appreaciate the applause, but I think it comes as a result of my failure to clearly articulate my view.

1. Mainstream Christianity holds that Jesus Christ was both fully human and fully divine.
2. If that is the case, then, when he was crucified, he was one human earning salvation for all other humans.
3. Earning is another word for meriting.
4. Therefore, God's granting of salvation in return for the sacrificing of the life of one human on behalf of all other humans is not a free gift; it was merited by Jesus Christ.
5. Hence, in this portrayal of God's relationship to humanity, God's salvation is not an act of grace. It is not a free gift. It had to be earned/merited.

This is, of course, my opinion, and I don't present it as superior to any other position. I present it as a point of discussion. And, I want to make it clear that I believe in God's grace; however, I perceive it differently from the conventional Christian perception of it.

[Semi-Sweet]

I appreaciate the applause, but I think it comes as a result of my failure to clearly articulate my view.

1. Mainstream Christianity holds that Jesus Christ was both fully human and fully divine.
2. If that is the case, then, when he was crucified, he was one human earning salvation for all other humans.
3. Earning is another word for meriting.
4. Therefore, God's granting of salvation in return for the sacrificing of the life of one human on behalf of all other humans is not a free gift; it was merited by Jesus Christ.
5. Hence, in this portrayal of God's relationship to humanity, God's salvation is not an act of grace. It is not a free gift. It had to be earned/merited.

This is, of course, my opinion, and I don't present it as superior to any other position. I present it as a point of discussion. And, I want to make it clear that I believe in God's grace; however, I perceive it differently from the conventional Christian perception of it.


The deal is . . . . it is free to us, because we did nothing to earn it.

John 1:29: "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

Galatians 2:20: "the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me."

1 John 2:2: "He himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world."

1 John 4:10: "God loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."

2 Corinthians 5:21: "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Ephesians 1:7: "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace."

1 Corinthians 15:3: "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures."

Romans 3:25: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation by his blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in his forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed."

If anyone is reconciled to God, it is because of what Jesus accomplished on the cross whether they acknowledge Him or even know Him.

[Mikko]

The deal is . . . . it is free to us, because we did nothing to earn it.
I understand that. The doctrine of the soterology of Jesus holds that God's favor is free to us because Jesus merited it for us. To me, however, that means it is not unmerited favor in the absolute and universally applicable sense. God required Jesus to die on the cross in order to merit it for the rest of us.

If anyone is reconciled to God, it is because of what Jesus accomplished on the cross whether they acknowledge Him or even know Him.
I understand that that is the conventional Christian doctrine of the soterology of Jesus, but it is only a doctrine. Without denigrating the sacrifice he made on the cross, I don't believe it was necessary for him to have done that in order for anyone to receive God's grace.

[StoneScratcher]

I'm honestly having a hard time trying to figure out what others are calling grace.

The problem I'm having is maybe my understanding of grace which appears to be quite different from what I'm reading as discussed here.

Is grace something we try to acknowledge as being GIVEN to us in some form?

Or is grace something we should pour out to others without putting "self" into the equation?

[Meriweather]

Thanks everyone who replied.

The replies, for the most part, mirror what goes on in this forum on a regular basis.

It would seem that some of us think that grace is sufficient while others think that we do our part in our own salvation and then God's grace takes us the rest of the way.

I asked this question, because I wasn't really sure what I believe. I'm still not sure, but again thanks for the replies.

Some of you may be thinking, that my discovery was always obvious. Well I knew that this was the case, but I thought by asking the question, something would be said that would help me clarify my position.

Let me ask you this:

If you are secure in you position, what is it that affirms and strengthens you in your belief that your understanding of grace is correct?

eta- Aside from the Holy Spirit convincing you, what else?

There are scripture passages that do support my belief that we do work with God to achieve our own salvation.

Mattthew 7:7, Jesus tells us to seek, ask, knock.
Luke 16:7-10, Jesus explains the attitude of a servant; we do all we are asked to, and more, and we work with humility saying, “We are only servants, and unworthy ones at that.”
Philippians 2:12, Paul says to work out one’s salvation with fear and trembling (that is, awe and seriousness).

Over and above that, God made us beings of free will. I have found I have to ask for what I want to achieve in human spiritual growth. After asking, I have found, I, too, am expected to work hard (be a servant) to achieve what I want to become. God has yet to wave a magic wand over me and presto, things change. Together God and I work on me—I, with awe and seriousness.

There have been times that God has presented certain situations to me, where sometimes out of ignorance and sometimes out of laziness I will pass over. Then, perhaps another time the same lesson will present itself, I’ll pick it up—work it—and then be filled with awe at the graces that were attached to it.

Grace needs God to bestow it; but it also needs me to pick it up and make use of it, to make something of it—to my own and others’ betterment.

[Meriweather]

I'm honestly having a hard time trying to figure out what others are calling grace.

The problem I'm having is maybe my understanding of grace which appears to be quite different from what I'm reading as discussed here.

Is grace something we try to acknowledge as being GIVEN to us in some form?

Or is grace something we should pour out to others without putting "self" into the equation?


For the purposes of most of this discussion, it seems to be the first (the one I highlighted), because we're talking about God's grace.

When we as individuals are working with God's grace, I would say you are correct that in bestowing grace in its purest from, we do not consider cost to self.

However, I also believe that we are to make use of God's grace on oneself so that we become all and more of what God intends for us to be.

[GMScott]

I understand that. The doctrine of the soterology of Jesus holds that God's favor is free to us because Jesus merited it for us. To me, however, that means it is not unmerited favor in the absolute and universally applicable sense. God required Jesus to die on the cross in order to merit it for the rest of us.

I understand that that is the conventional Christian doctrine of the soterology of Jesus, but it is only a doctrine. Without denigrating the sacrifice he made on the cross, I don't believe it was necessary for him to have done that in order for anyone to receive God's grace.
Me thinks you are getting too wrapped up in your word-play with the "merit" and "unmerited."

First, the words "merit" or "unmerited" are not even in Scripture. So in essence, you are building a "doctrine" with unScriptural words as well.

Secondly, the Lord Jesus did NOT "merit" anything for mankind. If you want to use unScriptural words for your doctrine, the correct term would be "propitiate" meaning appeasement. The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus on Calvary was the terms of "appeasement." This appeasement was tendered by Christ, between a rebellious human race and an offended Creator and in essence made the way available for mankind to come back into the fullness of a right standing before his Creator, as he was initially created for and to be. Something man could not do himself.

Yes, some men experienced "acts" of God's grace throughout history, however the grace experienced via the sacrifice of the Lord imputes the righteousness of Christ, onto an undeserved person, which is fully sufficient to expunge their past, present and future offense against God.

Christ needed NO sacrifice or to offer ANY appeasement for Himself as He was the 2nd Adam, a perfect man without any sin or offense against God the Father. He is God, He is the Word of God and as a man who walked this earth He remained sinless before God the Father.

So, if you believe that Christ's mission and purpose for coming into this world was unnecessary, how would one find themselves "appeased" before Almighty God, without the effectuate, sufficient proptitation sacrifice of Christ, in this life and for all of eternity??

[Semi-Sweet]

I understand that. The doctrine of the soterology of Jesus holds that God's favor is free to us because Jesus merited it for us. To me, however, that means it is not unmerited favor in the absolute and universally applicable sense. God required Jesus to die on the cross in order to merit it for the rest of us.

IMO, before Jesus opened up 'the way', humankind could not talk directly to God. Now whosoever will can freely come to God. There is no need for a mediator, because man has been reconciled to God. Those who believe in God are in a Covenant relationship with Him.

Titus 2:11. . ."For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all. . . . . . . "
I understand and I do respect your belief, even though I disagree.

[hben]

What is God's Grace?
If you are Christian, you most likely hear or say that word quite often.

By the Grace of God, through Gods Grace, Grace be to God, Amazing Grace, when you pray before a meal you may even say Grace.

There may be hundreds of way to use this word in reference to God.
So what does God's Grace mean to you?

Grace is God giving me what I don't deserve.

Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What I don't deserve:

Jn:14:
1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rv:21:
3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5: And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6: And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

What I do deserve:

Rv:20:15:
11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rv:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[Mikko]

Me thinks you are getting too wrapped up in your word-play with the "merit" and "unmerited."

First, the words "merit" or "unmerited" are not even in Scripture. So in essence, you are building a "doctrine" with unScriptural words as well.

Secondly, the Lord Jesus did NOT "merit" anything for mankind. If you want to use unScriptural words for your doctrine, the correct term would be "propitiate" meaning appeasement. The sacrifice of the Lord Jesus on Calvary was the terms of "appeasement." This appeasement was tendered by Christ, between a rebellious human race and an offended Creator and in essence made the way available for mankind to come back into the fullness of a right standing before his Creator, as he was initially created for and to be. Something man could not do himself.

Yes, some men experienced "acts" of God's grace throughout history, however the grace experienced via the sacrifice of the Lord imputes the righteousness of Christ, onto an undeserved person, which is fully sufficient to expunge their past, present and future offense against God.

Christ needed NO sacrifice or to offer ANY appeasement for Himself as He was the 2nd Adam, a perfect man without any sin or offense against God the Father. He is God, He is the Word of God and as a man who walked this earth He remained sinless before God the Father.

So, if you believe that Christ's mission and purpose for coming into this world was unnecessary, how would one find themselves "appeased" before Almighty God, without the effectuate, sufficient proptitation sacrifice of Christ, in this life and for all of eternity??

Wordplay, indeed. Propitiation is nothing if not a form of earning forgiveness. God does not have to be "appeased." That entire scenario is derived from the contention that the descendants of Adam and Eve inherited their "sin nature." I do not accept that doctrine.
As I said, if God's favor is contingent on "appeasement" through "propitiation," which is simply a form of meriting, it is not a free gift, hence it is not grace.

[Mikko]

IMO, before Jesus opened up 'the way', humankind could not talk directly to God. Now whosoever will can freely come to God. There is no need for a mediator, because man has been reconciled to God. Those who believe in God are in a Covenant relationship with Him.
Jesus is the mediator in the above explanation. Humankind has always been able to talk to and freely come to God.

Titus 2:11. . ."For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all. . . . . . . "
I understand and I do respect your belief, even though I disagree.
Then we agree to disagree. Since you guys accept the doctrine of salvation as presented by a literal reading of the NT, and I don't, there's no point in discussing further. I respect your faith. :)

[Semi-Sweet]

Jesus is the mediator in the above explanation. Humankind has always been able to talk to and freely come to God

Hebrews 1:1. . ."Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son. . . . ."

Romans 5:10. . .For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life."

If we are truly reconciled to God, why should we pray through a mediator as though we are still alienated?

Then we agree to disagree.

:cool:

[GMScott]

Wordplay, indeed. Propitiation is nothing if not a form of earning forgiveness. God does not have to be "appeased."
What are you using to make such a declaration as above?? I know you have already stated that you do not take the NT literally, but what about the entire OT and the sacrificial system setup by God starting in the Garden of Eden through to Moses and up to the days of Christ?? Were they NOT literal sacrifices, literal animals sacrificed on the altar of God for the "propitiation" of men's sin before an offended God and Creator?? Is the OT not to be taken literally either??
Mikko, That entire scenario is derived from the contention that the descendants of Adam and Eve inherited their "sin nature." I do not accept that doctrine.
Well, that would denigrate the sacrifice, mission and purpose of Christ coming to earth and suffering on the cross. I thought you said you didn't want to do that??

If you do not accept the sin nature of all men, inherited by all in the loins of Adam, then what could possibly be the purpose for the 2nd, perfect Adam and His need to die the horrible death He did?? How much of Scripture are you willing to negate in order to accept your position??
Mikko, As I said, if God's favor is contingent on "appeasement" through "propitiation," which is simply a form of meriting, it is not a free gift, hence it is not grace.
I guess I have to defer to your earlier statement,

Mikko, Then we agree to disagree. Since you guys accept the doctrine of salvation as presented by a literal reading of the NT, and I don't, there's no point in discussing further. I respect your faith.
However, I still feel that you might be looking at this from a far too narrow perspective.

Grace did not cost man anything. It is God who provides the Grace, it is also God, thru Jesus Christ the Lord, who provides the means of appeasement/propitiation. It is entirely a work of God, without any merit, cost or work from any man.

If you believe otherwise, then you are proposing a doctrine of Grace and salvation by works, which I believe is contrary to the basic theme of Scripture, which would result in no necessity or need for a Savior, as you can "do it yourself."

[StoneScratcher]

For the purposes of most of this discussion, it seems to be the first (the one I highlighted), because we're talking about God's grace.

When we as individuals are working with God's grace, I would say you are correct that in bestowing grace in its purest from, we do not consider cost to self.

However, I also believe that we are to make use of God's grace on oneself so that we become all and more of what God intends for us to be.

But, isn't the gift of grace the thing which makes us give ourselves? The gift is to be like God, and God gives.

So why does it seem many discuss something they receive as a "reward" to themselves?

I believe that when we receive God's grace, it isn't about us at all--it's about continuing God's grace by giving ourselves.

[Meriweather]

But, isn't the gift of grace the thing which makes us give ourselves? The gift is to be like God, and God gives.

Yes...but...not entirely.


So why does it seem many discuss something they receive as a "reward" to themselves?

I believe that when we receive God's grace, it isn't about us at all--it's about continuing God's grace by giving ourselves.


This description of grace makes it seem that God uses one being to care for others. The person receiving grace becomes the worker and the others those whom God cares about. While it may give us a pleasant feeling to be so "used", we must then ask why God's grace doesn't go directly to the person God wishes to care for.

Therefore, I lean more towards thinking that God's grace is for us--individually, since God is caring for each one of us. Because I have this care and wish to emulate my father, I find myself doing for others on a physical plane what He does for me on a spiritual plane.

[StoneScratcher]

[QUOTE]
This description of grace makes it seem that God uses one being to care for others. The person receiving grace becomes the worker and the others those whom God cares about. While it may give us a pleasant feeling to be so "used", we must then ask why God's grace doesn't go directly to the person God wishes to care for.


When you say: "we must then ask why God's grace doesn't go directly to the person God wishes to care for."

My answer is that He did. The grace running through us is infinite, as God is. Why should grace end up in our laps (to keep for ourselves) to point to and define as grace from God? This would cause others to feel unworthy of God's grace and the supposed recipients of their defined 'grace' a bit pompous, imo, to declare such things are grace bestowed upon them by God.

What grace is, to me, is something, once received (intangible, by the way), we are only given it AFTER we give outwardly. Without the giving (intangible), it is not grace.

God isn't like Santa (no disrespect intended) with giving "things" to us, or causing "happy world events" in our material world.



Therefore, I lean more towards thinking that God's grace is for us--individually, since God is caring for each one of us. Because I have this care and wish to emulate my father, I find myself doing for others on a physical plane what He does for me on a spiritual plane.


I disagree with your first sentence. If it is pure grace, there is no individual about it.

There also is no physical aspect about it, in its purest form, imo. Sure, one could say they have GIVEN something PHYSICAL, for example, giving your coat to a chilly elderly person who doesn't have one. That physical aspect of the coat being given, is not grace. It is that TUG that caused you to take your coat off in the first place which is grace--that overwhelming sense, almost automatic, without thought, without looking for an audience, without question of what is right because the PASSION to give--what God gave to you--that TUG--is so overwhelming, you act on it (or become hardened to it, if ignored).

It's not the "thing" which is given which is God's grace.

Also, I wanted to mention, God can use me anytime He wishes. I want to pour, I don't want to paw.

Again, this is what I believe. And I mean no offense, but I am having a hard time understanding why the discussion focuses on "things" gotten to individuals, or things "earned" or talk about "merit", as if a contest or a reward system.

Heaven is our reward.

[Summer]

Mercy is not getting what you deserve.
Grace is getting what you don't deserve.

Oh, this is beautifully said.

[Summer]

Simply put, Grace is an acronym for:

God's

Riches

At

Christ's

Expense

Ponder away!!

Thanks be to God, that by the free gift given through the Son, we are now heirs to all of God's riches! :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[Summer]

Thanks everyone who replied.

The replies, for the most part, mirror what goes on in this forum on a regular basis.

It would seem that some of us think that grace is sufficient while others think that we do our part in our own salvation and then God's grace takes us the rest of the way.

I asked this question, because I wasn't really sure what I believe. I'm still not sure, but again thanks for the replies.

Some of you may be thinking, that my discovery was always obvious. Well I knew that this was the case, but I thought by asking the question, something would be said that would help me clarify my position.

Let me ask you this:

If you are secure in you position, what is it that affirms and strengthens you in your belief that your understanding of grace is correct?

eta- Aside from the Holy Spirit convincing you, what else?

Lie Sniper,

I think what you're asking is what is it that makes us think that no more than grace is required for salvation (no works).

If I have your question right it is because there has never been any salvation except through blood. For the Jewish people the blood (atonement) came through animal sacrifice. When Jesus came and was crucified He became the last sacrificial lamb (atonement). No other sacrifice (blood atonement) will ever be need.

Now, there is a new law, the law of faith, belief, and acceptance. You must admit you are a sinner, you must have faith that Jesus died for YOU, you must believe that he was crucified and that He conquered death when He was resurrected, and then you must accept Him as you Lord and Savior. When you do these things, it is complete your atonement (salvation) is complete. There is no more to be done, as far as salvation goes.

Then as you continue to reach out in faith (to Him and then sharing it with those around you) He will continue to pour out his grace (in the amount you’re able to receive) upon you. It becomes cyclical, as all things in this life are, and each (grace and faith) is increased as you continue to grow in your walk with Christ.

Lie Sniper, more than anything I hope this helped as it was presented in all humbleness.

Summer

[Meriweather]

When you say: "we must then ask why God's grace doesn't go directly to the person God wishes to care for."

My answer is that He did. The grace running through us is infinite, as God is. Why should grace end up in our laps (to keep for ourselves) to point to and define as grace from God? This would cause others to feel unworthy of God's grace and the supposed recipients of their defined 'grace' a bit pompous, imo, to declare such things are grace bestowed upon them by God.

What grace is, to me, is something, once received (intangible, by the way), we are only given it AFTER we give outwardly. Without the giving (intangible), it is not grace.

God isn't like Santa (no disrespect intended) with giving "things" to us, or causing "happy world events" in our material world.


I disagree with your first sentence. If it is pure grace, there is no individual about it.

There also is no physical aspect about it, in its purest form, imo. Sure, one could say they have GIVEN something PHYSICAL, for example, giving your coat to a chilly elderly person who doesn't have one. That physical aspect of the coat being given, is not grace. It is that TUG that caused you to take your coat off in the first place which is grace--that overwhelming sense, almost automatic, without thought, without looking for an audience, without question of what is right because the PASSION to give--what God gave to you--that TUG--is so overwhelming, you act on it (or become hardened to it, if ignored).

It's not the "thing" which is given which is God's grace.

Also, I wanted to mention, God can use me anytime He wishes. I want to pour, I don't want to paw.

Again, this is what I believe. And I mean no offense, but I am having a hard time understanding why the discussion focuses on "things" gotten to individuals, or things "earned" or talk about "merit", as if a contest or a reward system.

Heaven is our reward.

Perhaps we are speaking of two different things or two different types of grace. I may not be getting your coat example. I see someone in need, I give to them. So what? That may be me emulating my Father, but often times I'd say it is just me--no tug, and possibly not even virtuous--just something I do and no big deal.

I am not arguing that God's grace is a thing. I am arguing that God's grace is the work within the individual.

Also in this thread, grace is also the matter of the gift of salvation God extends.

[Summer]

I appreaciate the applause, but I think it comes as a result of my failure to clearly articulate my view.

1. Mainstream Christianity holds that Jesus Christ was both fully human and fully divine.
2. If that is the case, then, when he was crucified, he was one human earning salvation for all other humans.
3. Earning is another word for meriting.
4. Therefore, God's granting of salvation in return for the sacrificing of the life of one human on behalf of all other humans is not a free gift; it was merited by Jesus Christ.
5. Hence, in this portrayal of God's relationship to humanity, God's salvation is not an act of grace. It is not a free gift. It had to be earned/merited.

This is, of course, my opinion, and I don't present it as superior to any other position. I present it as a point of discussion. And, I want to make it clear that I believe in God's grace; however, I perceive it differently from the conventional Christian perception of it.

Mikko,

I think I understand what you are saying and, if I do understand correctly, I agree with you. Jesus was fully human and fully God. It was required that a PERFECT, unspotted human be sacrificed to cover the sins of Adam. So there was payment, payment in full, by Jesus Christ. Fully Perfect Man and Fully Perfect God.

But, as was mentioned by Mikko, I am not here to cause debate, I am here to express my understanding, nothing more.

Summer

[StoneScratcher]

Perhaps we are speaking of two different things or two different types of grace. I may not be getting your coat example. I see someone in need, I give to them. So what? That may be me emulating my Father, but often times I'd say it is just me--no tug, and possibly not even virtuous--just something I do and no big deal.

I am not arguing that God's grace is a thing. I am arguing that God's grace is the work within the individual.

Also in this thread, grace is also the matter of the gift of salvation God extends.

I'm not arguing at all, actually. And they aren't two different things.

I am not speaking of donating to GoodWill, by the way...

In trying to give an example of what is intangible, it's nearly impossible.

However, grace, to me, is not a gift to us to take and keep, it is ONLY a gift if we give OUTWARDLY that gift away from us through giving. That is salvation.

There is no "GIFT OF SALVATION" as a gift itself. How could there be?

That would mean God would place a mark on those chosen and those not while we are still on Earth. Do you think He does this and if so, this is grace bestowed upon those chosen called salvation?

[Mikko]

Mikko,

I think I understand what you are saying and, if I do understand correctly, I agree with you. Jesus was fully human and fully God. It was required that a PERFECT, unspotted human be sacrificed to cover the sins of Adam. So there was payment, payment in full, by Jesus Christ. Fully Perfect Man and Fully Perfect God.

But, as was mentioned by Mikko, I am not here to cause debate, I am here to express my understanding, nothing more.

Summer
Great post, Summer, and I don't want to be an irritant. I have stated my belief, which differs from the conventional Christian characterization of grace; however, I respect that characterization and all who accept it, so if I were to continue arguing here, I would be creating more heat than light. This is, indeed, a fascinating topic, though, and it is a topic that is present in many religions, each of which has its own characterization of it.

[Meriweather]

I'm not arguing at all, actually. And they aren't two different things.

I am not speaking of donating to GoodWill, by the way...

In trying to give an example of what is intangible, it's nearly impossible.

However, grace, to me, is not a gift to us to take and keep, it is ONLY a gift if we give OUTWARDLY that gift away from us through giving. That is salvation.

There is no "GIFT OF SALVATION" as a gift itself. How could there be?

That would mean God would place a mark on those chosen and those not while we are still on Earth. Do you think He does this and if so, this is grace bestowed upon those chosen called salvation?


There is no gift of salvation/redemption? I call Jesus' life, death, and resurrection a gift of great magnitude.

I knew you were not speaking of Good Will. More likely you were speaking of being out on a field trip with a group, noticing someone shivering, and giving up your own coat and taking on the cold and the shivering so that the other might have warmth. Not only that, but doing it in such a way that the other person thinks you were overheated and burdened--and so they're doing you the favor by wearing the coat. Good deed? Possibly. Grace? Not by my definition of it (which may be the wrong definition). In this case, I would say someone heard some instructions and decided of her own free will to act upon them--no grace from God needed.

When I speak of grace, I am speaking more of a power boost where God infuses or seemingly directs one to make use of one's talents or experiences. One gives what he or she has/is to God, and God 'graces' it and returns it. Now it is back in that person's hands (for the most part) to put what one has received/is becoming to good use.


Like you, I don't feel we're arguing either--just trying to paint a picture of how we each see grace. I don't know about you, but this is the most difficult subject I've ever tried to put into words!

[GMScott]

As an example of the Grace of God working in the daily life of one redeemed by the blood of Jesus the Christ, how about the Beattitudes of Matthew chapter 5??

Or having the power to overcome our natural response and follow the Lord's instructions, for those who hear, in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 6:27 "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

Our "natural" response in each of these situations would be the very opposite of what the Lord is telling us to do. But by the Grace of God, freely given to us and undeservedly, we have the power to succeed with doing the opposite of what our natural inclinations would have us do.

[Mikko]

As an example of the Grace of God working in the daily life of one redeemed by the blood of Jesus the Christ, how about the Beattitudes of Matthew chapter 5??

Or having the power to overcome our natural response and follow the Lord's instructions, for those who hear, in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 6:27 "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

Our "natural" response in each of these situations would be the very opposite of what the Lord is telling us to do. But by the Grace of God, freely given to us and undeservedly, we have the power to succeed with doing the opposite of what our natural inclinations would have us do.
It's not grace if it's subject to a condition, or any conditions.

[GMScott]

It's not grace if it's subject to a condition, or any conditions.
I would like to respond, but honestly, I'm not comprehending where you get the idea of any "conditions" or what conditions God's grace is subject to, from anything that I have previously posted??

[captusa]

What is God's Grace?

What Zeus says before HE eats a bowl of ambrosia.

[hben]

What Zeus says before HE eats a bowl of ambrosia.

That is mighty thoughtful of Zeus to give the Lord thanks before his meals.

[captusa]

That is mighty thoughtful of Zeus to give the Lord thanks before his meals.

I have to admit you got me on that one.:clap::clap::clap:

[Lie Sniper]

That is mighty thoughtful of Zeus to give the Lord thanks before his meals.

:))