Is it necessary for people to believe they are sinners?

[Meriweather]

In the Great Commission thread optrader said, “But it is necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner, otherwise what need do they have for repentance and a savior?”

This, I felt, was a thought worthy of its own thread. How much of a sinner do we need to believe ourselves to be? For example is to say, “I am a sinner, I need to repent and accept a savior” all that is needed? I am thinking sometimes we carry the “I am a sinner” thought a bit further than it needs to be carried.

I suggest that is not a healthy attitude. How much better to say: “I am a child of God; I have been redeemed; and I have a savior who has advised and given examples for how to live a rich and fulfilling life.”

Did Jesus come with a message that we are to beat ourselves down or to lift ourselves up?

I am going to suggest that only accepting oneself as a sinner is a cop-out. We are much more than that. What say you?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I read those statements and it makes me wonder, how many people did Jesus tear down before he 'saved' them? How many did he rub their nose in their mistakes? And then, how many did he accept, just as they were, and then told them they were forgiven and to go and sin no more?

Why do we, lowly sinners, who have never done good in our lives, who's righteousnes is as filthy rags, feel we know better than the Son of God how to treat fellow sinners?

[Meriweather]

I read those statements and it makes me wonder, how many people did Jesus tear down before he 'saved' them? How many did he rub their nose in their mistakes? And then, how many did he accept, just as they were, and then told them they were forgiven and to go and sin no more?

Why do we, lowly sinners, who have never done good in our lives, who's righteousnes is as filthy rags, feel we know better than the Son of God how to treat fellow sinners?

"The righteousness is as filthy rags" seems to be constantly taken out of context here in this forum. It's kind of aggravating.

We all know we are human beings with all the weaknesses (or fallen nature) that entails. However, for us to focus on that instead of the fact that we are made in the image and likeness of God is a huge mistake (in my opinion).

The first is like being trapped in quicksand; the second is an inspiration of what we may become and achieve as a child of God. Is it truly necessary to denigrate our best efforts? I think not. Yes, I understand that even after we have done our very best, we should not rest on our laurels, but instead strive for even better. I can understand and appreciate comparing God's acts of righteousness to ones attained by humans. But are "filthy rags" the best analogy? I say, "No." Compare the light of a candle to that of a sun.

"Filthy rags" only works when one tries to present a work done for one's own self-interest as altruistic. It may be a great piece of work, but trying to pass it off as something unselfish is hypocrisy--and it would then qualify for the "filthy rags" analogy.

[Reeder]

"the righteousness is as filthy rags" seems to be constantly taken out of context here in this forum. It's kind of aggravating.

We all know we are human beings with all the weaknesses (or fallen nature) that entails. However, for us to focus on that instead of the fact that we are made in the image and likeness of god is a huge mistake (in my opinion).


+1

[Sosthenes]

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-6

The highlighted portion is the definition of the gospel which saves. It includes knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sin.

[Sosthenes]

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. - John 3:17

Jesus condemned nobody. He warned. He used sharpness. He stated truth, but he condemned nobody.

He didn't even accuse them to the Father:

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. - John 5:45

[Jacob_Rising]

In the Great Commission thread optrader said, “But it is necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner, otherwise what need do they have for repentance and a savior?”

This, I felt, was a thought worthy of its own thread. How much of a sinner do we need to believe ourselves to be? For example is to say, “I am a sinner, I need to repent and accept a savior” all that is needed? I am thinking sometimes we carry the “I am a sinner” thought a bit further than it needs to be carried.

I suggest that is not a healthy attitude. How much better to say: “I am a child of God; I have been redeemed; and I have a savior who has advised and given examples for how to live a rich and fulfilling life.”

Did Jesus come with a message that we are to beat ourselves down or to lift ourselves up?

I am going to suggest that only accepting oneself as a sinner is a cop-out. We are much more than that. What say you? It is a good topic, and it is necessary but that is just the beginning.

A person needs to go even past realizing he is a sinner and on to being absolutely nothing and realizing that there is GOD.

There is no you.

[Meriweather]

It is a good topic, and it is necessary but that is just the beginning.

A person needs to go even past realizing he is a sinner and on to being absolutely nothing and realizing that there is GOD.

There is no you.

Yet here I am.

[Jacob_Rising]

Yet here I am.The Only reason you are here is because you have no life and God works through you, and so you are not here, God is.

[RayMan]

Yet here I am.

You think. But to quote the good captain:


Or as DesCartes' idiot uncle said,
"I think I think therefore I think I am."

I think that I would have added one more "I think" to that statement.

I think.

[Meriweather]

The Only reason you are here is because you have no life and God works through you, and so you are not here, God is.

God gave me both life and free will. Therefore I am here. God is with me.

[Meriweather]

You think. But to quote the good captain:




I think that I would have added one more "I think" to that statement.

I think.


The lines of a hymn are now floating through my mind:

I am here; here I am.

[Jacob_Rising]

The lines of a hymn are now floating through my mind:

I am here; here I am.These words of your's will never fall to the ground because they are suspended in Time's history that is only a second long and words will never fade or go away because ,'' THEY ARE'' whatever has come from your mouth will never be erased, and whatever you have said, You have said for a reason whether good or bad.

Some people have negative words that merely move people like a sheepdog barking at sheeple, and other's like your words, encourage, sooth and love others and they were meant to hear your words.

You are only here and speaking because God put you here to speak.

[RayMan]

The lines of a hymn are now floating through my mind:

I am here; here I am.


I am the walrus.

Goo Goo G'joob.

[hben]

In the Great Commission thread optrader said, “But it is necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner, otherwise what need do they have for repentance and a savior?”

This, I felt, was a thought worthy of its own thread. How much of a sinner do we need to believe ourselves to be? For example is to say, “I am a sinner, I need to repent and accept a savior” all that is needed? I am thinking sometimes we carry the “I am a sinner” thought a bit further than it needs to be carried.

I suggest that is not a healthy attitude. How much better to say: “I am a child of God; I have been redeemed; and I have a savior who has advised and given examples for how to live a rich and fulfilling life.”

Did Jesus come with a message that we are to beat ourselves down or to lift ourselves up?

I am going to suggest that only accepting oneself as a sinner is a cop-out. We are much more than that. What say you?

I am going to suggest that the person who has never realized that he is a sinner can't understand his need to trust in a Savior and therefore will go to hell if he dies in that state. To deny that we are sinners is to lie to ourselves and to God. How can you save a person who thinks he can swim but can't? All you can do is to stand by and watch him splash the water while going down to his drowing death. Once he realizes that he can't swim, he will admit that he can't save himself and ask the lifeguard to save him. After that, the best thing he can do is to relax and let the lifeguard do his job. The worst thing he can do is to continue trying to help the lifeguard do his job by struggling to swim which only makes it harder on him. Likewise, Jesus is always right there to save any sinner who comes to realize that he is incapable of saving himself. Until that happens, Jesus can only watch us drown in our own sins while struggling and splashing in our own foolish pride.

[Rurudyne]

In the Great Commission thread optrader said, “But it is necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner, otherwise what need do they have for repentance and a savior?”

This, I felt, was a thought worthy of its own thread. How much of a sinner do we need to believe ourselves to be? For example is to say, “I am a sinner, I need to repent and accept a savior” all that is needed? I am thinking sometimes we carry the “I am a sinner” thought a bit further than it needs to be carried.

I suggest that is not a healthy attitude. How much better to say: “I am a child of God; I have been redeemed; and I have a savior who has advised and given examples for how to live a rich and fulfilling life.”

Did Jesus come with a message that we are to beat ourselves down or to lift ourselves up?

I am going to suggest that only accepting oneself as a sinner is a cop-out. We are much more than that. What say you?
Some points: if people are unaware or unaccepting that they are sinners then what would they have to be saved from?

While "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" may in fact be over the top, as ailments of faith go it is far less serious a proposal (or error) than the opposite idea (essentially, "I'm okay and you're okay) which is commonplace these days.

But aside from that, the belief in human sin is actually logical too.

When we look at the long road of human relations and governance I would marvel that any would ever come to the conclusion that human evil is somehow suspect but that human goodness is not. Really, the belief in human goodness as if the rule (by that standard) is just so much wishful thinking, sometimes bordering on delusion.

As for our Lord's Gospel: I would submit that it lifts God up ... what happens to any humans is a benefit and a consequence.

But to only accept ones' self as a "sinner" and do no more? Yeah, major cop out when there is no response to the salvation offered. Like saying 'well, this is me ... what can you do?'

[Reeder]

These words of your's will never fall to the ground because they are suspended in Time's history that is only a second long and words will never fade or go away because ,'' THEY ARE'' whatever has come from your mouth will never be erased, and whatever you have said, You have said for a reason whether good or bad.

Some people have negative words that merely move people like a sheepdog barking at sheeple, and other's like your words, encourage, sooth and love others and they were meant to hear your words.

You are only here and speaking because God put you here to speak.

We're not robots, if thats what you're suggesting.

[hben]

It is a good topic, and it is necessary but that is just the beginning.

A person needs to go even past realizing he is a sinner and on to being absolutely nothing and realizing that there is GOD.

There is no you.

Good point. In this culture of spoiled brat mentality, too often preachers leave out the part where Jesus said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Besides, if I am dead, then obviously I become nothing. And if I am dead, there is no me...there is only Christ.

Rom:6:8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Col:2:20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

2Tm:2:11: It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Rom:6:6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal:2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[hben]

We're not robots, if thats what you're suggesting.

Maybe we aren't robots, but we are clay in the potter's hands and sheep in the good shepherd's flock.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I am going to suggest that the person who has never realized that he is a sinner can't understand his need to trust in a Savior and therefore will go to hell if he dies in that state. To deny that we are sinners is to lie to ourselves and to God. How can you save a person who thinks he can swim but can't? All you can do is to stand by and watch him splash the water while going down to his drowing death. Once he realizes that he can't swim, he will admit that he can't save himself and ask the lifeguard to save him. After that, the best thing he can do is to relax and let the lifeguard do his job. The worst thing he can do is to continue trying to help the lifeguard do his job by struggling to swim which only makes it harder on him. Likewise, Jesus is always right there to save any sinner who comes to realize that he is incapable of saving himself. Until that happens, Jesus can only watch us drown in our own sins while struggling and splashing in our own foolish pride.

I don't know any lifeguard that would stand by, waiting for an invitation to come to the rescue, while a person drowned.

Such a lifeguard should be fired.

[Meriweather]

You are only here and speaking because God put you here to speak.

And perhaps He also put me here to listen and to learn. In any case, dearly loved friend, I am here; there is a me. Much more importantly, there is a God. I feel it is best to keep the two of us separate.

[Meriweather]

I am going to suggest that the person who has never realized that he is a sinner can't understand his need to trust in a Savior and therefore will go to hell if he dies in that state. To deny that we are sinners is to lie to ourselves and to God. How can you save a person who thinks he can swim but can't? All you can do is to stand by and watch him splash the water while going down to his drowing death. Once he realizes that he can't swim, he will admit that he can't save himself and ask the lifeguard to save him. After that, the best thing he can do is to relax and let the lifeguard do his job. The worst thing he can do is to continue trying to help the lifeguard do his job by struggling to swim which only makes it harder on him. Likewise, Jesus is always right there to save any sinner who comes to realize that he is incapable of saving himself. Until that happens, Jesus can only watch us drown in our own sins while struggling and splashing in our own foolish pride.

Mayhap it is quibbling, but I never knew anyone who insisted they could swim when they knew this wasn't so. Nor have I ever meant anyone, not even an atheist, who has ever denied that they sin or err.

Does Jesus prevent me from sinning? I would say that it is I who must work with my whole heart and soul to refrain from sinning. Absolutely I call on the Lord for help and assistance, but I refuse to believe I cannot save myself. For me it is a two-way street. I cannot save myself without the assistance of my Lord; he cannot save me without my work and effort.

[Koushi Shinigami]

To continue the analogy, if someone's drowning and you throw them a life ring, they are going to have to hold onto that ring while you pull them to safety. And they will have to continue holding that ring till they reach safety.

It's a team effort.

[Meriweather]

Some points: if people are unaware or unaccepting that they are sinners then what would they have to be saved from?

While "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" may in fact be over the top, as ailments of faith go it is far less serious a proposal (or error) than the opposite idea (essentially, "I'm okay and you're okay) which is commonplace these days.

But aside from that, the belief in human sin is actually logical too.

When we look at the long road of human relations and governance I would marvel that any would ever come to the conclusion that human evil is somehow suspect but that human goodness is not. Really, the belief in human goodness as if the rule (by that standard) is just so much wishful thinking, sometimes bordering on delusion.

As for our Lord's Gospel: I would submit that it lifts God up ... what happens to any humans is a benefit and a consequence.

But to only accept ones' self as a "sinner" and do no more? Yeah, major cop out when there is no response to the salvation offered. Like saying 'well, this is me ... what can you do?'

I think human goodness is the rule. I am not suggesting there isn't a lot that gets in our way of achieving goodness, but I do think the great majority of us wish to be good, and work towards that.

[Meriweather]

Good point. In this culture of spoiled brat mentality, too often preachers leave out the part where Jesus said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Besides, if I am dead, then obviously I become nothing. And if I am dead, there is no me...there is only Christ.


I do agree that the majority of us could also use some lessons and discipline in learning to deny ourselves more than we actually do.

[Rurudyne]

I think human goodness is the rule. I am not suggesting there isn't a lot that gets in our way of achieving goodness, but I do think the great majority of us wish to be good, and work towards that.
But "wishing to be good" in fact proves we aren't. You don't struggle to be something that is your nature and, frankly, no one talks about the sacrifice or struggle involved when they are acting badly.

Have you seen my thread about Discrimination v Being Indescriminate? I'd love to get some folks' thoughts as criticism, debate and discussion are among the best ways to learn from others.

[RayMan]

And perhaps He also put me here to listen and to learn. In any case, dearly loved friend, I am here; there is a me. Much more importantly, there is a God. I feel it is best to keep the two of us separate.


I am certain God feels the same way. :angel:

[Meriweather]

I am certain God feels the same way. :angel:

How can someone as mean as you make me laugh so hard?

[Jacob_Rising]

And perhaps He also put me here to listen and to learn. In any case, dearly loved friend, I am here; there is a me. Much more importantly, there is a God. I feel it is best to keep the two of us separate.It is best to die and let God.

[GMScott]

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. - John 3:17

Jesus condemned nobody. He warned. He used sharpness. He stated truth, but he condemned nobody.
We need to continue that thought into verse 18

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." HJV

The Lord did NOT need to condemn anyone as by their unbelief they ARE condemned already.

However, and Glory to God for His Word:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." KJV

Much good theology there in Romans but here is the distinction which causes many to error. Condemnation versus Conviction.

The human race is under God's condemnation from the fall of Adam. The Lord Jesus had NO need to "rub" anyone's face in that fact. However, His works and Words brought conviction and what was the purpose of that conviction?? To bring those that He spoke to, their need for something outside and above anything that they could control. This work still continues today with His Word and the conviction of the Holy Spirit to our need.

According to Romans, and elsewhere, those "in Christ" are no longer living under "condemnation" but the conviction of the Holy Spirit while they "remain in Christ" or "abide in Christ."

Condemnation deals with the fallen nature. Conviction deals with the redeemed nature.

Condemnation says there is no way out, that one is not worthy, leading one to continue seeking a solution within one's own power, with no hope of ever achieving anything different. Conviction first leads us to our need for a Savior and then post-redemption says you "screwed" up again, as an imperfect being, but by God's Grace and strength you can pick up yourself and continue on with the battle. There is Hope, Light and victory at the end of the tunnel.

Condemnation = hopelessness. Conviction = Hope.

[Meriweather]

But "wishing to be good" in fact proves we aren't. You don't struggle to be something that is your nature and, frankly, no one talks about the sacrifice or struggle involved when they are acting badly.

Have you seen my thread about Discrimination v Being Indescriminate? I'd love to get some folks' thoughts as criticism, debate and discussion are among the best ways to learn from others.


In fact, I think it would be a struggle for me to act badly. For example, suppose (after reading the last two exchanges between RayMan and me) you were to tell me that I really should create a post where I was truly insulting to Ray.

I am capable of doing a lot in the spirit of fun and games; however, for me to deliberately act badly towards Ray, would indeed be a struggle for me. It is much easier for me to want to be good to Ray. I've often thought/wished, "I want to make Ray laugh." I have never thought I would like to make Ray cry.

I do need to take another look at the Discrimination v Being Indescriminate thread. It caught my interest last night, but I was too tired then to give it the attention it deserved and meant to get back to it this morning. Thanks for the reminder.

[RayMan]

How can someone as mean as you make me laugh so hard?

I am like Russia.

"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma."
Sir Winston Churchill

[Meriweather]

It is best to die and let God.

If you mean die to self; to empty oneself, then I agree. The ego does not need to take up all the space in our being.

[hben]

I don't know any lifeguard that would stand by, waiting for an invitation to come to the rescue, while a person drowned.

Such a lifeguard should be fired.

Every sinner who fails to recognize his sinful condition and his need for the Savior automatically fires the spiritual lifeguard by rejecting His free offer to rescue him from the judgement.

[hben]

Mayhap it is quibbling, but I never knew anyone who insisted they could swim when they knew this wasn't so. Nor have I ever meant anyone, not even an atheist, who has ever denied that they sin or err.

Does Jesus prevent me from sinning? I would say that it is I who must work with my whole heart and soul to refrain from sinning. Absolutely I call on the Lord for help and assistance, but I refuse to believe I cannot save myself. For me it is a two-way street. I cannot save myself without the assistance of my Lord; he cannot save me without my work and effort.

:eek: :confused: :doh:

hben is speechless.

[RayMan]

Every sinner who fails to recognize his sinful condition and his need for the Savior automatically fires the spiritual lifeguard by rejecting His free offer to rescue him from the judgement.

Glub...

[hben]

To continue the analogy, if someone's drowning and you throw them a life ring, they are going to have to hold onto that ring while you pull them to safety. And they will have to continue holding that ring till they reach safety.

It's a team effort.

But a good professionally trained lifeguard doesn't leave it up to the drowing person to do the holding on. Sometimes a lifeguard may have to render the victim helpless or unconcious in order to rescue him from certain death. Jesus is not a life preserver; He is a personal lifeguard. A life preserver is not a living breathing person who gives a flip whether you live or die. Jesus does not fit that description at all. A good lifteguard is willing to put his life on the line in order to save the life of someone else. Jesus gave His life in order to save us.

[Reeder]

But a good professionally trained lifeguard doesn't leave it up to the drowing person to do the holding on. Sometimes a lifeguard may have to render the victim helpless or unconcious in order to rescue him from certain death.


Revelation 3: 20

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Those of us who are not unconcious must "hold on" (aka - "open the door").

[Meriweather]

Every sinner who fails to recognize his sinful condition and his need for the Savior automatically fires the spiritual lifeguard by rejecting His free offer to rescue him from the judgement.

The lifeguard analogy fails because the lifeguard cares not one whit whether the swimmer wishes to be rescued or not. When I was a lifeguard, there was no way any swimmer was going to drown--that just wasn't happening--not on my watch.

[hben]

The lifeguard analogy fails because the lifeguard cares not one whit whether the swimmer wishes to be rescued or not. When I was a lifeguard, there was no way any swimmer was going to drown--that just wasn't happening--not on my watch.

So as a lifeguard you cared? Hmmm...:think:

The lifeguard analogy fails for anyone who doesn't want to admit he needs to be saved. To the hopeless person who knows he can't save himself, it works very well. I've witnessed it.

[THE LIGHT]

In the Great Commission thread optrader said, “But it is necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner, otherwise what need do they have for repentance and a savior?”

This, I felt, was a thought worthy of its own thread. How much of a sinner do we need to believe ourselves to be? For example is to say, “I am a sinner, I need to repent and accept a savior” all that is needed? I am thinking sometimes we carry the “I am a sinner” thought a bit further than it needs to be carried.

I suggest that is not a healthy attitude. How much better to say: “I am a child of God; I have been redeemed; and I have a savior who has advised and given examples for how to live a rich and fulfilling life.”

Did Jesus come with a message that we are to beat ourselves down or to lift ourselves up?

I am going to suggest that only accepting oneself as a sinner is a cop-out. We are much more than that. What say you?

I have to agree with you on that. It is Satan that is constantly trying to remind us of our sins. While we as believers should be quick to repent of any sins we should also remember that Christ already paid for them past present and future promising to “remember [them] no more” (Hebrews 10:17). If we keep our focus on Christ we will never fall (Matthew 14:25-32).

On the other hand for the unsaved it is very important for them to recognize their sin nature in order to grasp the necessity for a Savior and to repent of those sins.

[hben]

Revelation 3: 20

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Those of us who are not unconcious must "hold on" (aka - "open the door").

Then by all means hold on if you feel that you must. I like holding on to Jesus, but I also know that in those times when I thought I had let go of Him, He never for a moment let go of me...and that is a very comforting thought.

[hben]

[hben's speechlessness ends after a few minutes in the state of shock]

I am still trying to get over this statement.

I refuse to believe I cannot save myself.

Meri, what did you mean by this?

[Meriweather]

[hben's speechlessness ends after a few minutes in the state of shock]

I am still trying to get over this statement.


Meri, what did you mean by this?

Remember your analogy about people turning away from the lifeguard? That seemed to imply choice. "Repent" is an action. It's a turning away from sin. This turning away from sin is not simply turning from sin into doing nothing. It is turning away from sin into discerning and accomplishing God's will. Can I do this without God, without Jesus? No. But nor can it be done without full involvement of my will, either. In other words Jesus had a huge part to play in my redemption--and I believe I am also expected to play a huge part.

[RayMan]

Remember your analogy about people turning away from the lifeguard? That seemed to imply choice. "Repent" is an action. It's a turning away from sin. This turning away from sin is not simply turning from sin into doing nothing. It is turning away from sin into discerning and accomplishing God's will. Can I do this without God, without Jesus? No. But nor can it be done without full involvement of my will, either. In other words Jesus had a huge part to play in my redemption--and I believe I am also expected to play a huge part.

You would make one lousy Calvinist.

No offense.

[Meriweather]

You would make one lousy Calvinist.

No offense.

If we are here on earth to help others, doesn't it make perfect sense the first we should help is our God and Redeemer?

[RayMan]

If we are here on earth to help others, doesn't it make perfect sense the first we should help is our God and Redeemer?

Worst. :rolleyes:

Calvinist. :rolleyes:

Ever. :rolleyes:

[Semi-Sweet]

Mayhap it is quibbling, but I never knew anyone who insisted they could swim when they knew this wasn't so. Nor have I ever meant anyone, not even an atheist, who has ever denied that they sin or err.

Does Jesus prevent me from sinning? I would say that it is I who must work with my whole heart and soul to refrain from sinning. Absolutely I call on the Lord for help and assistance, but I refuse to believe I cannot save myself. For me it is a two-way street. I cannot save myself without the assistance of my Lord; he cannot save me without my work and effort.

(Bold)
"Without God we cannot;
Without us, God will not."

Vintage Augustine, drenched with both the grace of God, and the mind of God.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Worst. :rolleyes:

Calvinist. :rolleyes:

Ever. :rolleyes:

Suckup. :snooty:


Keep complimenting her like that and there'll be no living with her.

[optrader]

Greetings sister Meri- I am curious as to your question "how much of a sinner do we have to be." It was my assertion in my thread that this is part of the problem. How does one sinner witness to another about salvation? We tend to get very upset and sometimes feel a person is being self righteous if they point out our sins and the fact that we need a saviour. Yet, scripture tells us that "all have sinned and fall short ..." and "there is none righteous, no not one..." It is we who differentiate between sins, not God. there is no "how much" sin. We all are equally guilty and deserve death.

This is what I believe must be acknowledged by us as individuals. It is our nature to justify our own behaviour, often with statements (spoken or unspoken) like, "at least I don't do that." (insert sin/action of choice) Because we want to justify our own sins, we twist "judge not" to mean we can't point out others sins and witness without being hypocrits, in other words "I won't point out your sins if you won't point out mine.) This is political correctness run amok and no one, especially Jesus is served by this. This is what I was getting at, not people bashing, but how the commission is to be deliivered effectively given our current PC environment.

[hillplus]

Remember your analogy about people turning away from the lifeguard? That seemed to imply choice. "Repent" is an action. It's a turning away from sin. This turning away from sin is not simply turning from sin into doing nothing. It is turning away from sin into discerning and accomplishing God's will. Can I do this without God, without Jesus? No. But nor can it be done without full involvement of my will, either. In other words Jesus had a huge part to play in my redemption--and I believe I am also expected to play a huge part.

Lately, as I have lurked, I must say I have been frequently happily surprised by your comments.

[smyrna]

To continue the analogy, if someone's drowning and you throw them a life ring, they are going to have to hold onto that ring while you pull them to safety. And they will have to continue holding that ring till they reach safety.

It's a team effort.

You are making a faulty assumption in your analogy.IMO In your situation, the individual knows they are dieing. They are drowning and are aware of it. They are conscious of their situation. In our discussion, there is no purpose to admit that we are sinners if you do not believe in the reason why. The reason why is the consciousness that we are discussing and not everyone believes in the plan of salvation through Jesus.

[Constantine the Great]

In the Great Commission thread optrader said, “But it is necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner, otherwise what need do they have for repentance and a savior?”

This, I felt, was a thought worthy of its own thread. How much of a sinner do we need to believe ourselves to be? For example is to say, “I am a sinner, I need to repent and accept a savior” all that is needed? I am thinking sometimes we carry the “I am a sinner” thought a bit further than it needs to be carried.

I suggest that is not a healthy attitude. How much better to say: “I am a child of God; I have been redeemed; and I have a savior who has advised and given examples for how to live a rich and fulfilling life.”

Did Jesus come with a message that we are to beat ourselves down or to lift ourselves up?

I am going to suggest that only accepting oneself as a sinner is a cop-out. We are much more than that. What say you?


We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but we must also remember that we are created in the Divine Image (Imago Dei) and as such, we are not as depraved as others want to make us out to be. We are divine beings, icons of the divine, and as such we are not as "ugly" and distorted as some wish we would see ourselves as .

[smyrna]

*snip*In fact, I think it would be a struggle for me to act badly.

Oh if only mankind really was like this...:think::D

[Semi-Sweet]

John 1:12. . ."But to all who received Him, who believed in His name, He gave power to become children of God."

As children of the Most High, we have a powerful position.

Hebrews 12:12. . ."Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed."

As a parent, I want my children to be confident, and assured of their worth. How much can they accomplish if they are always afraid that they will mess up?

[GMScott]

Remember your analogy about people turning away from the lifeguard? That seemed to imply choice. "Repent" is an action. It's a turning away from sin. This turning away from sin is not simply turning from sin into doing nothing. It is turning away from sin into discerning and accomplishing God's will. Can I do this without God, without Jesus? No. But nor can it be done without full involvement of my will, either. In other words Jesus had a huge part to play in my redemption--and I believe I am also expected to play a huge part.
I think I understand what you're saying, however I am concerned about the last statement, "Jesus had a huge part to play in my redemption."

For me, I would have to say that the Lord Jesus "played" the entire part in my redemption. Without what He did, I would still be lost without a solution and unable to execute a solution that would even come near to suffice. It was Him who worked the conviction for me to even know what the real "problem" was, it was Him who opened my eyes, ears and heart to the solution and it was Him who provided the way and drew me to the answer. Anything that I do after redemption is a reaction to what He has done and what He has "empowered" me to do. I can do nothing without Him!!

As far as the life guard scenario, well all good analogies have their weak points, especially when it comes to God. However, I am reminded of the crippled man at the pool of Bethesda in John 5.

Now there are a multitude of blessings and things to learn from this account in the Gospel. I'll try to stick to a few points as related to this thread and the life guard scenario.

First, notice that there were a "multitude" of people around the pool. They were all there "waiting" for the solution to their problem, the stirring of the water by an angel which would heal them and solve their problem.

Notice the "progressive" description of the ailments of those around the pool.

John 5:3 "In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water." KJV

I believe that nothing in Scripture should be looked over quickly but that the Holy Spirit of God inspired these men to pen the words they did for all to benefit. The physical description of this multitude of folks is a spiritual description of the entire human race, all of Adam's fallen race, everyone. Impotent, and further drilling down to the details of the impotency, blind, halt (crippled) and withered. Let everyone see here a reflection of their ownselves and what we are by nature. No, not a very pretty picture, but indeed a picture authored by the One who searches the innermost depths of our hearts.

The natural man is impotent, without strength.
Romans 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." KJV

This sums up in one word what volumes of man's wisdom seeks to deny. We are altogether helpless and unable to rectify the problem between God and us. Much like the drowning person who is unable to save themselves or swim back to shore.

The natural man is blind, unable to see the danger in their life of unbelief nor the destruction in their future as they head down the Broad Road of self-righteousness and spiritual ignorance.
Prov. 4:19 "The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble." KJV
Again, like the drowning swimmer, unaware of help with the life guard on the way, he continues to thrash about, attempting to save himself.

The natural man is crippled (halt), unable to walk or move to the solution of his problem. How can a blind cripple walk the Narrow Way that leads to life??
Luke11:34 The lamp of the body is the eye, when then thine eye may be simple, thy whole body also is lightened; and when it may be evil, thy body also is darkened;" YLT

Like the drowning swimmer is unable to "go" to the solution, the life guard MUST go to him. The sinner must have the Solution come to him FIRST as well.
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:"KJV

The natural man is withered, (usually referring to the hands) unable to work to support himself, much less attend to the works of God. The drowning swimmer's appendages are much the same as "withered" as in unable to work the physical act of swimming or the saving themself.

Notice the order of the ailments above and let's now consider them in reverse. A man is unable to "work" or to do God's works (withered) unless he is walking with God (crippled) and he will not begin to walk with God until the eyes of his heart (blind) have been opened to see his need of Christ. This is the Divine order which never varies.

First the eyes must be opened, bringing about an enlightenment which prepares us to walk worthy of the vocation to which we were called and that equips us for acceptable service to God.

I wanted to get into the specifics of Christ speaking to the one cripple out of the multitudes laying there, how with one word He could have healed the entire lot of them and the response, lacking any smattering of faith from the cripple who was healed, but this is getting long. Maybe another time.

[hben]

So am I the only sinner on here? I didn't realize was in such a small minority group.

[smyrna]

So am I the only sinner on here? I didn't realize was in such a small minority group.

Nahhhhhhh, not the only...just the worst.:mrgreen:

[optrader]

So am I the only sinner on here? I didn't realize was in such a small minority group.

Not at all brother H, but threads like this make you wonder...

[Koushi Shinigami]

So am I the only sinner on here? I didn't realize was in such a small minority group.

You must be in really good physical condition.

[Meriweather]

Greetings sister Meri- I am curious as to your question "how much of a sinner do we have to be." It was my assertion in my thread that this is part of the problem. How does one sinner witness to another about salvation? We tend to get very upset and sometimes feel a person is being self righteous if they point out our sins and the fact that we need a saviour. Yet, scripture tells us that "all have sinned and fall short ..." and "there is none righteous, no not one..." It is we who differentiate between sins, not God. there is no "how much" sin. We all are equally guilty and deserve death.


Scripture also tells us that we are made in the image and likeness of God. It tells us God loves the world. Where I disagree, perhaps vehemently, is that we "deserve death." God does not see it that way. He sent a redeemer because His thought is that not only do we deserve life, we deserve it more abundantly.

Once again, I don't believe Jesus came to beat us down, but rather to lift us up.

This is what I believe must be acknowledged by us as individuals. It is our nature to justify our own behaviour, often with statements (spoken or unspoken) like, "at least I don't do that." (insert sin/action of choice) Because we want to justify our own sins, we twist "judge not" to mean we can't point out others sins and witness without being hypocrits, in other words "I won't point out your sins if you won't point out mine.) This is political correctness run amok and no one, especially Jesus is served by this. This is what I was getting at, not people bashing, but how the commission is to be deliivered effectively given our current PC environment.

Like you, I do believe we should be willing to help each other and guide each other to this more abundant life. We should not be afraid to acknowledge sin, neither our own or others, so that we may turn away from it and back into an abundant life.

[Meriweather]

Lately, as I have lurked, I must say I have been frequently happily surprised by your comments.

Thank you, hillplus. I sincerely appreciate your kindness.

[hben]

Nahhhhhhh, not the only...just the worst.:mrgreen:

Good, then...I feel better in knowing that. :angel: :confused: :doh: :twisted:

[hben]

You must be in really good physical condition.

I am doing pretty good for the shape I'm in. :cool:

But what's that got to do with being a sinner?

[Meriweather]

*snip*

Oh if only mankind really was like this...:think::D

Jesus told us that we are the salt of the earth; that we are the light on a hillside. When we count our blessings and our joys, don't they involve the people around us, those closest to us?

I am not trying to say that we do not sin, because of course we do! But I don't think Jesus wanted us to go around thinking of ourselves and each other as "filthy rags". I believe he meant it when he told us we are the salt of the earth, the light on the hill.

[hben]

Once again, I don't believe Jesus came to beat us down, but rather to lift us up.

We agree!!! See, with God all things ARE possible.

I don't see how anyone could look at the sacrifice Jesus made in giving His life on the cross in order for us to have forgiveness and eternal life while taking away our sin and death sentence, and come away thinking that is beating us down rather than lifting us up.

[Meriweather]

I think I understand what you're saying, however I am concerned about the last statement, "Jesus had a huge part to play in my redemption."

For me, I would have to say that the Lord Jesus "played" the entire part in my redemption. Without what He did, I would still be lost without a solution and unable to execute a solution that would even come near to suffice. It was Him who worked the conviction for me to even know what the real "problem" was, it was Him who opened my eyes, ears and heart to the solution and it was Him who provided the way and drew me to the answer. Anything that I do after redemption is a reaction to what He has done and what He has "empowered" me to do. I can do nothing without Him!!

As far as the life guard scenario, well all good analogies have their weak points, especially when it comes to God. However, I am reminded of the crippled man at the pool of Bethesda in John 5.

Now there are a multitude of blessings and things to learn from this account in the Gospel. I'll try to stick to a few points as related to this thread and the life guard scenario.

First, notice that there were a "multitude" of people around the pool. They were all there "waiting" for the solution to their problem, the stirring of the water by an angel which would heal them and solve their problem.

Notice the "progressive" description of the ailments of those around the pool.

John 5:3 "In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water." KJV

I believe that nothing in Scripture should be looked over quickly but that the Holy Spirit of God inspired these men to pen the words they did for all to benefit. The physical description of this multitude of folks is a spiritual description of the entire human race, all of Adam's fallen race, everyone. Impotent, and further drilling down to the details of the impotency, blind, halt (crippled) and withered. Let everyone see here a reflection of their ownselves and what we are by nature. No, not a very pretty picture, but indeed a picture authored by the One who searches the innermost depths of our hearts.

The natural man is impotent, without strength.
Romans 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." KJV

This sums up in one word what volumes of man's wisdom seeks to deny. We are altogether helpless and unable to rectify the problem between God and us. Much like the drowning person who is unable to save themselves or swim back to shore.

The natural man is blind, unable to see the danger in their life of unbelief nor the destruction in their future as they head down the Broad Road of self-righteousness and spiritual ignorance.
Prov. 4:19 "The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble." KJV
Again, like the drowning swimmer, unaware of help with the life guard on the way, he continues to thrash about, attempting to save himself.

The natural man is crippled (halt), unable to walk or move to the solution of his problem. How can a blind cripple walk the Narrow Way that leads to life??
Luke11:34 The lamp of the body is the eye, when then thine eye may be simple, thy whole body also is lightened; and when it may be evil, thy body also is darkened;" YLT

Like the drowning swimmer is unable to "go" to the solution, the life guard MUST go to him. The sinner must have the Solution come to him FIRST as well.
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:"KJV

The natural man is withered, (usually referring to the hands) unable to work to support himself, much less attend to the works of God. The drowning swimmer's appendages are much the same as "withered" as in unable to work the physical act of swimming or the saving themself.

Notice the order of the ailments above and let's now consider them in reverse. A man is unable to "work" or to do God's works (withered) unless he is walking with God (crippled) and he will not begin to walk with God until the eyes of his heart (blind) have been opened to see his need of Christ. This is the Divine order which never varies.

First the eyes must be opened, bringing about an enlightenment which prepares us to walk worthy of the vocation to which we were called and that equips us for acceptable service to God.

I wanted to get into the specifics of Christ speaking to the one cripple out of the multitudes laying there, how with one word He could have healed the entire lot of them and the response, lacking any smattering of faith from the cripple who was healed, but this is getting long. Maybe another time.

This is a beautiful rendition of the healing by the pool. From this day forward, this Gospel story will have a great deal more meaning for me. Thank you.

[HardHammer]

So am I the only sinner on here? I didn't realize was in such a small minority group.

Not at all benny, as you touched on ealier in this thread:

1 John 1:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

We are all sinners, and MUST realize that condition before He can Save us. This thread appears to be an attempt to water down what filthy, vile, self centered creatures mankind can be. Does that imply that all here in this forum are like that, no, but they certainly do have the potential for such behavior.

Knowing I'm a Helpless Sinner certainly does keep God Above ALL in my reality as He should be in ALL peoples reality, yet some believe they don't need God, that they some how can do it themself, on their own works and righteousness.

[hben]

Not at all benny, as you touched on ealier in this thread:

1 John 1:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

We are all sinners, and MUST realize that condition before He can Save us. This thread appears to be an attempt to water down what filthy, vile, self centered creatures mankind can be. Does that imply that all here in this forum are like that, no, but they certainly do have the potential for such behavior.

Knowing I'm a Helpless Sinner certainly does keep God Above ALL in my reality as He should be in ALL peoples reality, yet some believe they don't need God, that they some how can do it themself, on their own works and righteousness.

I remember as a young Christian saying that there were certain things that I would never do under any circumstances, and then life happened. I can relate to poor old Peter in so many ways. I found myself having thoughts and being tempted by things that I would have never in my wildest dreams thought I was capable of. God allowed me to see that I was capable of committing the worst most heinous sin imaginable, and if it had not been for the His grace, I could have ended up in prison or worse. When God opened my eyes, I was truly humbled. Now, even though I joke around about it and still even sing the old song I used to sing in country bands, "Oh Lord, It's Hard To Be Humble When You're Perfect In Every Way...", I seriously know that I am still far from perfect, and I am still capable of committing the worst sin imaginable. Therefore, I will keep on admitting my faults as a sinner, and I'll keep on praising my Lord for His amazing grace that keeps me secure forever...one day at a time.

[Meriweather]

So am I the only sinner on here? I didn't realize was in such a small minority group.

No one here is claiming to be sinless. But sin is not who we are, it is what we do and how we fail. When you look at your fellow human beings, do you see sin or do you see a child of God?

There isn't an hour of the day that passes that I don't wish--and then work towards--being better than I am. Sometimes being human is a very tough row to hoe, and then, in particular, we should remember who we are. We are a child of God and dearly beloved of Him. Remembering this makes our work of conquering our own sins so much more productive.

[TaylorW65]

Not at all benny, as you touched on ealier in this thread:

1 John 1:8-10 (New King James Version)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

We are all sinners, and MUST realize that condition before He can Save us. This thread appears to be an attempt to water down what filthy, vile, self centered creatures mankind can be. Does that imply that all here in this forum are like that, no, but they certainly do have the potential for such behavior.

Knowing I'm a Helpless Sinner certainly does keep God Above ALL in my reality as He should be in ALL peoples reality, yet some believe they don't need God, that they some how can do it themself, on their own works and righteousness.

I know I commit sins but I cannot label myself a sinner because that is not all of who I am. I personally do not like labels. I eat therefore am I an eater? Is that all I am an eater? I also breath and do all sorts of things. I cannot define myself by labels.

I see you mentioned that "This thread appears to be an attempt to water down what filthy, vile, self centered creatures mankind can be."

I did notice the words "can be." Does that mean we are also capable of the opposite? I think the thoughts we think are very important and I think we need to have a balanced view of our nature. I think fundamentalist Christianity likes to only focus on one side of our personalities and engage in all or nothing thinking and disqualifying the positive.

Just natural observation shows that there are many descent nice and kind human beings out there.

[optrader]

Scripture also tells us that we are made in the image and likeness of God. It tells us God loves the world. Where I disagree, perhaps vehemently, is that we "deserve death." God does not see it that way. He sent a redeemer because His thought is that not only do we deserve life, we deserve it more abundantly.


I believe you are overlooking a couple important things. Yes, absolutely Jesus loves us, but think about His death on the cross. Why did He die? Not for anything He had done but for what WE have done. Rom. 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."Isn't a wage something we earn and deserve? Jesus took the death we deserve so that we could have the life he deserves. I would also point out that although Christ loves all and died for all, only those who accept Him as Lord and saviour will have His righteousness imputed to them. Revelation says "let him that is holy be holy still and he who is filthy be filthy still." The non-believers will not be seen as having the righteousness of Christ and will be lost. This is scriptural.

Once again, I don't believe Jesus came to beat us down, but rather to lift us up.

Jesus is the one to be lifted up, only through Him is salvation gained. He came to save us despite our nature. If we didn't have our nature, what need would we have of Him?


Like you, I do believe we should be willing to help each other and guide each other to this more abundant life. We should not be afraid to acknowledge sin, neither our own or others, so that we may turn away from it and back into an abundant life.

Here we agree. Jesus wants us to have abundant life, but we must die to ourselves and live for Him to have it. This is the message...

[TaylorW65]

If we didn't have our nature, what need would we have of Him?

Are you sure you're not engaging in circular logic here? You are told you need a savior so people distort human nature into something that is totally evil to justify a need of a savior.

Natural observation shows that people have the capacity to do much good and much harm and the majority of beings on this planet are descent human beings and it is only the bad apples that get all the press and distorts our view of ourselves.

[HardHammer]

I remember as a young Christian saying that there were certain things that I would never do under any circumstances, and then life happened. I can relate to poor old Peter in so many ways. I found myself having thoughts and being tempted by things that I would have never in my wildest dreams thought I was capable of. God allowed me to see that I was capable of committing the worst most heinous sin imaginable, and if it had not been for the His grace, I could have ended up in prison or worse. When God opened my eyes, I was truly humbled. Now, even though I joke around about it and still even sing the old song I used to sing in country bands, "Oh Lord, It's Hard To Be Humble When You're Perfect In Every Way...", I seriously know that I am still far from perfect, and I am still capable of committing the worst sin imaginable. Therefore, I will keep on admitting my faults as a sinner, and I'll keep on praising my Lord for His amazing grace that keeps me secure forever...one day at a time.

Amen brother, Amen!!

[Semi-Sweet]

So am I the only sinner on here? I didn't realize was in such a small minority group.

OK, so we are sinners. The good news is. . . .we have a Savior.

Hebrews 6:1. . ."Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God."

We graduated elementary school. :D

[HardHammer]

I know I commit sins but I cannot label myself a sinner because that is not all of who I am. I personally do not like labels. I eat therefore am I an eater? Is that all I am an eater? I also breath and do all sorts of things. I cannot define myself by labels.

I see you mentioned that "This thread appears to be an attempt to water down what filthy, vile, self centered creatures mankind can be."

I did notice the words "can be." Does that mean we are also capable of the opposite? I think the thoughts we think are very important and I think we need to have a balanced view of our nature. I think fundamentalist Christianity likes to only focus on one side of our personalities and engage in all or nothing thinking and disqualifying the positive.

Just natural observation shows that there are many descent nice and kind human beings out there.

Mankind 'can be' something better, yes, but I believe that's only possible with Gods help. When left to our own devices, we WILL do that which we should not do. The positive or 'Good News' is that even though we were His enemies in Sin, God still Loves us, that He sent His Son to this earth to die and pay for OUR sin, once and for all and those who BELIEVE upon Him will not be put to shame or forsaken by Him, but Saved by His Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ.

The 'ALL' spoken of is God ABOVE ALL and the 'nothing' is what is left over without Him, IMHO.

Fundamentalist believe that we do not deserve His Love, Mercy or Grace. In His Love for us, He can forget our sin once we come to know His Son, wrapped in the cloak of Righteousness that Jesus Christ provided us by His Shed Blood on the Cross. He will see us clothed in the Righteousness of Jesus when we go home to Heaven, not by the actions of any of our works or self precieved righteousness.

ETA: If you know you commit sins, then you are a sinner tha same if you lie, you are a liar, if you steal you are a thief. The facts cannot be manipulated to be false when they are true no matter how many pairs of rose colored glasses one puts on. We are ALL sinners.

[hben]

No one here is claiming to be sinless. But sin is not who we are, it is what we do and how we fail. When you look at your fellow human beings, do you see sin or do you see a child of God?

Simply by looking at a person without knowing him, I can't make the judgement as to whether he is a child of God or not. Until I know whether he has trusted in Christ, I definitely can't take it for granted that he is a child of God, but I can know that he is a sinner since we all are. Hopefully, that answered your question.

There isn't an hour of the day that passes that I don't wish--and then work towards--being better than I am. Sometimes being human is a very tough row to hoe, and then, in particular, we should remember who we are. We are a child of God and dearly beloved of Him. Remembering this makes our work of conquering our own sins so much more productive.

I agree that knowing we are a child of God securely saved forever by God's grace is the key to living as sin free as possible, but to deny the reality that we are still wretched men capable of falling at any given moment is setting yourself up for a great let down at some point. Pride cometh before a fall. I believe knowing that we are sinners only serves to keep us humble. I don't see it in the same negative light that you and many others do. Sorry, but my experience has been whenever I forget that I am a lowly sinner saved only by God's grace and start thinking of myself as a super saint who leaps tall buildings of sin with a single bound, I usually fall flat on my face. But the Lord and I usually do pretty well as long as I remember that I am a sinner saved only by His grace who needs to trust Him every minute of everyday or I'll fall. Maybe it is because I have never been one to be humble by nature, and this is God's way of keeping me humble. Whenever I look at Peter in the scriptures, I see me, and we all know what Peter did, but we also know how much Jesus loved him in spite of all of Peter's faults.

[optrader]

Are you sure you're not engaging in circular logic here? You are told you need a savior so people distort human nature into something that is totally evil to justify a need of a savior.

Natural observation shows that people have the capacity to do much good and much harm and the majority of beings on this planet are descent human beings and it is only the bad apples that get all the press and distorts our view of ourselves.

From the perpective of the world, you are right. Some people do "bad" things, many do "good" things. It isn't just Christians that can love others and live decent, moral lives. The issue though, is salvation.

In regards to salvation, nothing "good" we do is sufficient to save us. I think many people have this concept that if there is a heaven, they will naturally go there because they are a "good "person. Somewhere, there is a big cosmic scale, and each good deed we do gets a weight put on one side and each bad thing we do gets a weight put on the other side. The problemis, we are all biased towards ourselves, thus there is no objective scale with which to weigh ourselves against. What one person see as bad, and thus puts that weight on the bad side of the scale, another person doesn't see as bad at all. Who decides?

God is consistent, the scale is the same for everyone, there is no bias. Being "good" is not the same as being saved. Again, if a person believes they are naturally good, what need for Christ? The Christian has a duty to spread the Gospel, this is true, but we are also called to spread the ENTIRE message and this includes getting people to first acknowledge they are sinners in need of repentance. Without this act of humility, it is unlikely a person will concede their need for Christ and call upon Him for salvation...

[HardHammer]

Are you sure you're not engaging in circular logic here? You are told you need a savior so people distort human nature into something that is totally evil to justify a need of a savior.

Natural observation shows that people have the capacity to do much good and much harm and the majority of beings on this planet are descent human beings and it is only the bad apples that get all the press and distorts our view of ourselves.

I believe we distort our own view of ourselves, to make us look better in our own eyes, to help us sleep at night. Without the Righteousness of Jesus clothing us, God does see corrupted flesh in front of Him.

[HardHammer]

Simply by looking at a person without knowing him, I can't make the judgement as to whether he is a child of God or not. Until I know whether he has trusted in Christ, I definitely can take it for granted that he is a child of God, but I can know that he is a sinner since we all are. Hopefully, that answered your question.



I agree that knowing we are a child of God securely saved forever by God's grace is the key to living as sin free as possible, but to deny the reality that we are still wretched men capable of falling at any given moment is setting yourself up for a great let down at some point. Pride cometh before a fall. I believe knowing that we are sinners only serves to keep us humble. I don't see it in the same negative light that you and many others do. Sorry, but my experience has been whenever I forget that I am a lowly sinner saved only by God's grace and start thinking of myself as a super saint who leaps tall buildings of sin with a single bound, I usually fall flat on my face. But the Lord and I usually do pretty well as long as I remember that I am a sinner saved only by His grace who needs to trust Him every minute of everyday or I'll fall. Maybe it is because I have never been one to be humble by nature, and this is God's way of keeping me humble. Whenever I look at Peter in the scriptures, I see me, and we all know what Peter did, but we also know how much Jesus loved him in spite of all of Peter's faults.

Amen brother, thank you Peter.

In Him,

Paul

[Koushi Shinigami]

I am doing pretty good for the shape I'm in. :cool:

But what's that got to do with being a sinner?

You seem to be getting plenty of exercise here, with all the conclusions you are jumping to.

[Koushi Shinigami]

We agree!!! See, with God all things ARE possible.

I don't see how anyone could look at the sacrifice Jesus made in giving His life on the cross in order for us to have forgiveness and eternal life while taking away our sin and death sentence, and come away thinking that is beating us down rather than lifting us up.


You say that. Then you agree with this:





We are all sinners, and MUST realize that condition before He can Save us. This thread appears to be an attempt to water down what filthy, vile, self centered creatures mankind can be. Does that imply that all here in this forum are like that, no, but they certainly do have the potential for such behavior.


:rolleyes: As CtG pointed out elsewhere, in whose image were we made?

[Koushi Shinigami]

I remember as a young Christian saying that there were certain things that I would never do under any circumstances, and then life happened. I can relate to poor old Peter in so many ways. I found myself having thoughts and being tempted by things that I would have never in my wildest dreams thought I was capable of. God allowed me to see that I was capable of committing the worst most heinous sin imaginable, and if it had not been for the His grace, I could have ended up in prison or worse. When God opened my eyes, I was truly humbled. Now, even though I joke around about it and still even sing the old song I used to sing in country bands, "Oh Lord, It's Hard To Be Humble When You're Perfect In Every Way...", I seriously know that I am still far from perfect, and I am still capable of committing the worst sin imaginable. Therefore, I will keep on admitting my faults as a sinner, and I'll keep on praising my Lord for His amazing grace that keeps me secure forever...one day at a time.

You sound very proud of your humility...

[Semi-Sweet]

I believe we distort our own view of ourselves, to make us look better in our own eyes, to help us sleep at night. Without the Righteousness of Jesus clothing us, God does see corrupted flesh in front of Him.

We do sin HH, I don't think anyone is denying that, but the blood of Christ is of no effect if we don't believe that once repented of, God remembers them no more.

Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.

1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[hben]

OK, so we are sinners. The good news is. . . .we have a Savior.

Hebrews 6:1. . ."Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God."

We graduated elementary school. :D

Please, refer to my Post #77. Maybe it will explain further. I believe we all have to minister as the Lord leads us. For some reason, this issue is bigger for me than many others. I am sorry that Koushi evidently had a bad experience with someone over this, but since I wasn't there I can't say exactly what that person's intentions or ideas were. I only know through what I have received from the scriptures and what I have experienced in ministering to others, I have seen God work to change lives. I have also seen how forgetting that we are sinners can lead to stumbling which I tend to relate to the verse that says, "Pride cometh before a fall." I know that not everyone who chooses not to think of themselves as a sinner once they have trusted Christ is full of pride, but then, there is always that possibility when we ignore the fact that we still live in a body of flesh which sins all the time with or without permission from the conscious mind.

[hben]

You sound very proud of your humility...

And you sound very humble about your pride... :whistle:

[Reeder]

And you sound very humble about your pride... :whistle::eh:

[hben]

You say that. Then you agree with this:

What I agreed with was only part of the post, and it didn't contradict what I've been saying.

:rolleyes: As CtG pointed out elsewhere, in whose image were we made?

:rolleyes: Who is our father before we trust Christ for salvation?

[Lie Sniper]

:eh:

See, he just reversed what Koushi said.

Kinda like saying, "I know you are but what am I." :whistle:

Anyway, I think I'll stay out of it.

[hben]

You seem to be getting plenty of exercise here, with all the conclusions you are jumping to.

This is a neverending cycle. You confuse me, and I confuse Reeder. :confused:

[hben]

See, he just reversed what Koushi said.

Kinda like saying, "I know you are but what am I." :whistle:

Anyway, I think I'll stay out of it.

You are a wise man. :D

[Lie Sniper]

This is a neverending cycle. You confuse me, and I confuse Reeder. :confused:

It's all "funny talk". :razz:

[Lie Sniper]

You are a wise man. :D

Just admit that you love Koushi like a brother.



OK, I'll stay out of this domestic now.

[hben]

From the perpective of the world, you are right. Some people do "bad" things, many do "good" things. It isn't just Christians that can love others and live decent, moral lives. The issue though, is salvation.

In regards to salvation, nothing "good" we do is sufficient to save us. I think many people have this concept that if there is a heaven, they will naturally go there because they are a "good "person. Somewhere, there is a big cosmic scale, and each good deed we do gets a weight put on one side and each bad thing we do gets a weight put on the other side. The problemis, we are all biased towards ourselves, thus there is no objective scale with which to weigh ourselves against. What one person see as bad, and thus puts that weight on the bad side of the scale, another person doesn't see as bad at all. Who decides?

God is consistent, the scale is the same for everyone, there is no bias. Being "good" is not the same as being saved. Again, if a person believes they are naturally good, what need for Christ? The Christian has a duty to spread the Gospel, this is true, but we are also called to spread the ENTIRE message and this includes getting people to first acknowledge they are sinners in need of repentance. Without this act of humility, it is unlikely a person will concede their need for Christ and call upon Him for salvation...

Amen, Brother!!!

[hben]

Just admit that you love Koushi like a brother.

I've done that before, but I will add something else at this time. Only a brother of mine could possibly be as stubborn as me. I almost always know what Koushi believes, too. Whatever I believe about any given subject, I can usually depend on him to believe just the opposite. :))

OK, I'll stay out of this domestic now.

Now, I am not sure if you are wise, or just "chicken". :razz:

[Semi-Sweet]

Please, refer to my Post #77. Maybe it will explain further. I believe we all have to minister as the Lord leads us. For some reason, this issue is bigger for me than many others. I am sorry that Koushi evidently had a bad experience with someone over this, but since I wasn't there I can't say exactly what that person's intentions or ideas were. I only know through what I have received from the scriptures and what I have experienced in ministering to others, I have seen God work to change lives. I have also seen how forgetting that we are sinners can lead to stumbling which I tend to relate to the verse that says, "Pride cometh before a fall." I know that not everyone who chooses not to think of themselves as a sinner once they have trusted Christ is full of pride, but then, there is always that possibility when we ignore the fact that we still live in a body of flesh which sins all the time with or without permission from the conscious mind.

I understand.

Pride is a work of the flesh. Our glory is in the Lord Jesus Christ, not ourselves.

Galatians 6:14. . ."But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

The fruit of the Spirit. . .love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. . . . spell Christlikness. This is the ultimate purpose of God, both in spirit and in body. Paul put it. . ."As we have borne the image of the man of dust we shall also bear the image of the Man of heaven."

To be like Christ. . .now and forever. . .that is God's purpose for us. And that is the mission of the Holy Spirit.

[Reeder]

In regards to salvation, nothing "good" we do is sufficient to save us. I think many people have this concept that if there is a heaven, they will naturally go there because they are a "good "person. Somewhere, there is a big cosmic scale, and each good deed we do gets a weight put on one side and each bad thing we do gets a weight put on the other side.

I agree with this for the most part.


Being "good" is not the same as being saved. Again, if a person believes they are naturally good, what need for Christ?

I've never believed that the term "good" was necessarily synonymous with the term "perfect."

[hben]

I understand.

Pride is a work of the flesh. Our glory is in the Lord Jesus Christ, not ourselves.

Galatians 6:14. . ."But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

The fruit of the Spirit. . .love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. . . . spell Christlikness. This is the ultimate purpose of God, both in spirit and in body. Paul put it. . ."As we have borne the image of the man of dust we shall also bear the image of the Man of heaven."

To be like Christ. . .now and forever. . .that is God's purpose for us. And that is the mission of the Holy Spirit.

And I don't disagree with any of that, so I am not living on the pig farm just yet. :lol:
But I have not been demoted back to grade school either as someone on here implied earlier. :hand: :naughty: :snooty:

[Semi-Sweet]

And I don't disagree with any of that, so I am not living on the pig farm just yet. :lol:
But I have not been demoted back to grade school either as someone on here implied earlier. :hand: :naughty: :snooty:

:redface: I am always thinking of those who might be observing. I didn't mean to sound 'preachy,' and condescending, especially to a preacher.

[hben]

:redface: I am always thinking of those who might be observing. I didn't mean to sound 'preachy,' and condescending, especially to a preacher.

I forget some people know how to read as opposed to just looking at the pictures which consist of smilies on here. :boohoo: :dance: :clap:

BTW, these little smilies have nothing to do with anything here. I just inserted them in case Jmac stops by. I felt like having a little music. It always refreshes my spirit.

[Lie Sniper]

.....<Snip>.......But I have not been demoted back to grade school either as someone on here implied earlier. :hand: :naughty: :snooty:

You were teetering on the brink for a moment there....

[hben]

You were teetering on the brink for a moment there....

I've been teetering on the brink every moment of my life for the last 55 years, so this is not a unique point of time in my life. :cool:

[RayMan]

See, he just reversed what Koushi said.

Kinda like saying, "I know you are but what am I." :whistle:

Anyway, I think I'll stay out of it.


Too late for that. :angel:

[hben]

Too late for that. :angel:

There you go...being yourself again. :naughty:

[optrader]

I understand.

Pride is a work of the flesh. Our glory is in the Lord Jesus Christ, not ourselves.

Galatians 6:14. . ."But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

The fruit of the Spirit. . .love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. . . . spell Christlikness. This is the ultimate purpose of God, both in spirit and in body. Paul put it. . ."As we have borne the image of the man of dust we shall also bear the image of the Man of heaven."

To be like Christ. . .now and forever. . .that is God's purpose for us. And that is the mission of the Holy Spirit.

Another, in a long list of great posts. You set the bar high...

[Lie Sniper]

Too late for that. :angel:

You have that problem too I see...:mrgreen:

[RayMan]

You have that problem too I see...:mrgreen:

C'est vrai.

[hben]

C'est vrai.

:eek: Are you going force me and CID to meet somewhere about halfway between Texas and Alabammy...say 'bout New Awleeens, just sose we can learn enough French to figger out whether or not you're throwin' some bad words our way. :naughty:

[Lie Sniper]

:eek: Are you going force me and CID to meet somewhere about halfway between Texas and Alabammy...say 'bout New Awleeens, just sose we can learn enough French to figger out whether or not you're throwin' some bad words our way. :naughty:

Indeed.

[RayMan]

:eek: Are you going force me and CID to meet somewhere about halfway between Texas and Alabammy...say 'bout New Awleeens, just sose we can learn enough French to figger out whether or not you're throwin' some bad words our way. :naughty:


Babelfish is your friend.

C'est vrai mon frere.

[Hadassah]

Babelfish is your friend.

C'est vrai mon frere.

Translation: It is true, my brother. :mrgreen:



(Without Bablefish, mind you. I remembered some high school French.)

[Semi-Sweet]

Another, in a long list of great posts. You set the bar high...

:redface: ty.

[RayMan]

Translation: It is true, my brother. :mrgreen:



(Without Bablefish, mind you. I remembered some high school French.)


C'est magnifique!

[Koushi Shinigami]

:rolleyes: Who is our father before we trust Christ for salvation?

God.

[captusa]

Is it necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner.
What say you?

No.
Next question.

[optrader]

No.
Next question.

It goes without saying the question is intended for believers. Therefore, I won't say it.

[Meriweather]

No.
Next question.

What/when was the closest you came to believing in God?

[captusa]

What/when was the closest you came to believing in God?

I guess when I was around 8 years old.

[RayMan]

It goes without saying the question is intended for believers. Therefore, I won't say it.

Hey opt,

One of the things everyone has is an opinion. Even cap...:angel:

[Meriweather]

I guess when I was around 8 years old.

What caused you to believe then?

[Rurudyne]

You know, I'm thinking a somewhat related thread dealing with the question of if people believe in human evil or not and, if so, do they reason that humans can still create truly reformed governing entities so that said trait does not tend to grow dominate the practical aspects of government and society.

Or: can corrupt and corruptible men produce wise and potent governments?

[Meriweather]

You know, I'm thinking a somewhat related thread dealing with the question of if people believe in human evil or not and, if so, do they reason that humans can still create truly reformed governing entities so that said trait does not tend to grow dominate the practical aspects of government and society.

Or: can corrupt and corruptible men produce wise and potent governments?

Yes. But they need to keep in mind that they need to protect the government from those who seek to exploit it for personal benefit.

[captusa]

What caused you to believe then?

Naivite.
I still don't know how to get an accent over the last e.

[captusa]

Hey opt,

One of the things everyone has is an opinion. Even cap...:angel:

I thought Merri would appreciate an unbiased (and correct) answer.

[Meriweather]

Naivite.
I still don't know how to get an accent over the last e.

Naiveté.

You mean like that? :angel:

[captusa]

Naiveté.

You mean like that? :angel:
Yeah. How DO you do that.
BTW Have you noticed Evian is naive spelled backward ?
Coincidence. I think not.

[Meriweather]

Yeah. How DO you do that.
BTW Have you noticed Evian is naive spelled backward ?
Coincidence. I think not.

I don't think it is a coincidence, either.

The way I do it is copy and paste. Word types it correctly; I also have a dictionary handy; sometimes I'll simply type the word in my browser and the form I want will be one of the choices.

[RayMan]

I thought Merri would appreciate an unbiased (and correct) answer.


Well then, I guess I had better get busy and give her one. :mrgreen:

[Old_Mil]

In the Great Commission thread optrader said, “But it is necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner, otherwise what need do they have for repentance and a savior?”

This, I felt, was a thought worthy of its own thread. How much of a sinner do we need to believe ourselves to be? For example is to say, “I am a sinner, I need to repent and accept a savior” all that is needed? I am thinking sometimes we carry the “I am a sinner” thought a bit further than it needs to be carried.

I suggest that is not a healthy attitude. How much better to say: “I am a child of God; I have been redeemed; and I have a savior who has advised and given examples for how to live a rich and fulfilling life.”

Did Jesus come with a message that we are to beat ourselves down or to lift ourselves up?

I am going to suggest that only accepting oneself as a sinner is a cop-out. We are much more than that. What say you?

Paul said, "O wretched man that I am - who will free me from this body of death" AFTER he had been saved and come to the realization that he was going to heaven. Apparently, there are a lot of modern Americans who feel that they're a good sight better than the scribe of a good portion of the New Testament.

As we progress deeper into the 21st century, I grow more convinced that you truly cannot understand Christianity unless you reject out of hand much of the pressure our society places on you to compromise with the days of Noah.

[RayMan]

Paul said, "O wretched man that I am - who will free me from this body of death" AFTER he had been saved and come to the realization that he was going to heaven. <snip>

Pulling that one verse out of its context leads to poor exigesis.

Paul answered his own question in the next few sentences he wrote. It is good to keep in mind that the epistle to Romans is just that, a letter, and was not written in Chapters and Verses. Paul didn't STAY a wretched man his whole life. He describes his feelings about himself after he got born again and then shares how Jesus set him free.

He shares this in order to point us towards Jesus the deliverer not in order to make us develop a defeated attitude in regard to our relationship with God.

Young's Literal Translation

Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
Rom 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
Rom 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.


God condemmed sin in the flesh, not the flesh, not the person. And Jesus HAS set us free. It is our place to embrace the deliverance God has provided through Jesus Christ.

[hben]

Paul answered his own question in the next few sentences he wrote. It is good to keep in mind that the epistle to Romans is just that, a letter, and was not written in Chapters and Verses. Paul didn't STAY a wretched man his whole life. He describes his feelings about himself after he got born again and then shares how Jesus set him free.

My only question is why did God inspire a lost, unbelieving man to write the first seven chapters of Romans. That is a hard pill to swallow. :cool:

[RayMan]

My only question is why did God inspire a lost, unbelieving man to write the first seven chapters of Romans. That is a hard pill to swallow. :cool:


What in the world are you talking about my Baptist hermano?

I think you need to back away from the sweet tea for a couple hours. Let the caffeine and sugar dissipate from your bloodstream...:angel:

[hben]

What in the world are you talking about my Baptist hermano?

I think you need to back away from the sweet tea for a couple hours. Let the caffeine and sugar dissipate from your bloodstream...:angel:

You know what I'm talking about. You didn't get promoted to Pentecostal Pope status by playing dumb. :lol:

[RayMan]

You know what I'm talking about. You didn't get promoted to Pentecostal Pope status by playing dumb. :lol:

The amount of actual communication going on between us would expand exponentially if you would actually read what I write in my posts instead of going off on strange tangents like this.

I said nothing about Paul being unsaved up until chapter 7. Paul talks about the relationships that the unbeliever, the Jew and then the Christian have with God in the first chapters of Romans.

In chapter 7 he shares a personal testimony which his readers will be able to relate to in order to help them see that their is freedom and not condemnation for them in Christ.


Please stop making things up.

I'm not going to touch the playing dumb line. Too much like shooting fish in a barrel :hug:

[hben]

The amount of actual communication going on between us would expand exponentially if you would actually read what I write in my posts instead of going off on strange tangents like this.

I said nothing about Paul being unsaved up until chapter 7. Paul talks about the relationships that the unbeliever, the Jew and then the Christian have with God in the first chapters of Romans.

In chapter 7 he shares a personal testimony which his readers will be able to relate to in order to help them see that their is freedom and not condemnation for them in Christ.


Please stop making things up.

I'm not going to touch the playing dumb line. Too much like shooting fish in a barrel :hug:

But dumb lines get shot at all the time on here...by you and me both. :D

[optrader]

Hey opt,

One of the things everyone has is an opinion. Even cap...:angel:

True dat, I found humor in an atheist stating he doesn't believe we have to believe we are sinners. But then, to my chagrin, my humor is often misunderstood. :frown:

[captusa]

Well then, I guess I had better get busy and give her one. :mrgreen:

I have a suggestion.
Try http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=61198121&postcount=115

[RayMan]

I have a suggestion.
Try http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=61198121&postcount=115

Shucks cap,
I read that one yesterday. Didn't do anything for me. :D


Shabbat Shalom.

[RayMan]

True dat, I found humor in an atheist stating he doesn't believe we have to believe we are sinners. But then, to my chagrin, my humor is often misunderstood. :frown:

Don't you just hate it when you have to explain your jokes?

I know I do.

[RayMan]

But dumb lines get shot at all the time on here...by you and me both. :D

Yup.

[captusa]

Shucks cap,
I read that one yesterday. Didn't do anything for me. :D


Shabbat Shalom.

I'm sorry if I, in any way, denograted your attention span.

[RayMan]

I'm sorry if I, in any way, denograted your attention span.

Not at all. L'shana tovah!

[Meriweather]

True dat, I found humor in an atheist stating he doesn't believe we have to believe we are sinners. But then, to my chagrin, my humor is often misunderstood. :frown:

If it helps, optrader, your post--and captusa's--did make me smile. You see, in our house, my husband is quick to remind me who the sinner is.

[HardHammer]

Pulling that one verse out of its context leads to poor exigesis.

Paul answered his own question in the next few sentences he wrote. It is good to keep in mind that the epistle to Romans is just that, a letter, and was not written in Chapters and Verses. Paul didn't STAY a wretched man his whole life. He describes his feelings about himself after he got born again and then shares how Jesus set him free.

He shares this in order to point us towards Jesus the deliverer not in order to make us develop a defeated attitude in regard to our relationship with God.

Young's Literal Translation

Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
Rom 8:2 for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death;
Rom 8:3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.


God condemmed sin in the flesh, not the flesh, not the person. And Jesus HAS set us free. It is our place to embrace the deliverance God has provided through Jesus Christ.

I disagree, a level of wretchedness exsists in all of us even after coming to know the Lord Jesus Christ. It indwells our flesh and has been condemned by God which is precisely why it can never be in His presense. Our flesh isn't what we are, it's a container, a vessel to carry around our soul and is of this world.

Romans 7:14-25 (New King James Version)
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

I believe Paul was very clear here, the inward man, the soul can dedicate itself to Gods will, but the flesh we ALL have will always remain a slave to sin in one way or another. Our flesh is sin itself, it's corrupt, dirty and loves the world and it's stimulations and comforts. Paul had a few more thoughts on the topic:

Galatians 5:16-26 (New King James Version)

Walking in the Spirit

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

There is a battle going on inside every Believer, the battle between Gods Holy Spirit and our soul which is bound to our flesh.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I hate my body.

[hben]

I hate my body.

You must learn to love your body, so you can love the body of your neighbor...expecially if your neighbor is Jennifer Lopez or even someone close. :whistle:

[RayMan]

<snip>

There is a battle going on inside every Believer, the battle between Gods Holy Spirit and our soul which is bound to our flesh.

I didn't intend to leave the impression that the believer does not have to deal temptations and the weakness of the flesh after getting saved, simply that Paul states that victory over temptation and the flesh lies in Christ.



2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

[Koushi Shinigami]

You must learn to love your body, so you can love the body of your neighbor...expecially if your neighbor is Jennifer Lopez or even someone close. :whistle:

Are you proposing that I start lusting after my neighbor? :eh:

[RayMan]

Are you proposing that I start lusting after my neighbor? :eh:


He probably got that idea from an old quote by a revered Southern Baptist...Jimmy Carter.

I've looked on many women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times. God knows I will do this and forgives me.
Jimmy Carter (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jimmycarte130252.html)

Oh btw, I also found a Jimmy quote for you Koushi.

I have often wanted to drown my troubles, but I can't get my wife to go swimming.
Jimmy Carter (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jimmycarte163463.html)

:mrgreen:

[Koushi Shinigami]

He probably got that idea from an old quote by a revered Southern Baptist...Jimmy Carter.

I've looked on many women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times. God knows I will do this and forgives me.
Jimmy Carter (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jimmycarte130252.html)

Oh btw, I also found a Jimmy quote for you Koushi.

I have often wanted to drown my troubles, but I can't get my wife to go swimming.
Jimmy Carter (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jimmycarte163463.html)

:mrgreen:

:)) :))

mr carter provides me plenty of opportunty to practice the exercise of my Christian charity.

[hben]

Are you proposing that I start lusting after my neighbor? :eh:

Nah, I was only making a joke, but the old serpent was serious when he told you to do it. He has absolutely no sense of humor about that sort of stuff.

[hben]

He probably got that idea from an old quote by a revered Southern Baptist...Jimmy Carter.

I've looked on many women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times. God knows I will do this and forgives me.
Jimmy Carter (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jimmycarte130252.html)

Oh btw, I also found a Jimmy quote for you Koushi.

I have often wanted to drown my troubles, but I can't get my wife to go swimming.
Jimmy Carter (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jimmycarte163463.html)

:mrgreen:

Jimmy Carter is no Baptist. He is a BINO. There's a big difference between the two. Besides he is a Democrat Baptist which as everyone knows is more of a paradox than a denomination. :whistle:

[RayMan]

Jimmy Carter is no Baptist. He is a BINO. There's a big difference between the two. Besides he is a Democrat Baptist which as everyone knows is more of a <snip> than a denomination. :whistle:

You might want to edit the snipped word before you get reported to TTTM.

BTW - Jimmy was a Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher for decades.


Jimmy is - No Baptist - Baptist in Name Only - Democrat Baptist.

You really should pick one story and stick to it. :mrgreen:

[RayMan]

:)) :))

mr carter provides me plenty of opportunty to practice the exercise of my Christian charity.

Poundin' nails for Habitat or forgiving him for some of his sillier public statements?

[hben]

You might want to edit the snipped word before you get reported to TTTM.

Don't they have any sense of humor at all?

BTW - Jimmy was a Southern Baptist Sunday School teacher for decades.

Yeah, I know. Most all the Southern Baptists that I knew at the time of his presidency were truly embarrassed by his claim to be "one of us". I have always told Baptists and non-Baptists alike that I am very thankful that Jimmy Carter was our president for one term. He is the main reason that God gave us President Ronald Reagan. :flag:



Jimmy is - No Baptist - Baptist in Name Only - Democrat Baptist.

You really should pick one story and stick to it. :mrgreen:


Ok, let me explain. His is not a true Baptist in the sense that his politics reflect anything but the consevative values of most Baptists. He calls himself one, but most that I know judge him by his fruits which say otherwise. And the Democrat Baptist...well I was simply reflecting my political view. I know a few Baptists who are Democrats, and I for the life of me can't understand how a person can be both. Jesus said it best, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." Hben adds: "Ye cannot serve God and Obama." :confused:

[Meriweather]

Don't they have any sense of humor at all?

An excellent sense of humor as a matter of fact. But, why use a word they asked us to avoid using?

[RayMan]

Don't they have any sense of humor at all?


<snip>

As regards using that word in the RF?

I don't think so.

I think there is a zero tolerance policy on that one.


If you made up some off the wall name for a non-existent group it might fly but regardless of your personal prejudice there are many Democrats who are good Baptist folk.

[hben]

Poundin' nails for Habitat or forgiving him for some of his sillier public statements?

"Sillier public statements"??? Ray, you are being too kind. Are you goin' for extra brownie points to count toward the day that the heavenly rewards are passed out? :eh:

[RayMan]

An excellent sense of humor as a matter of fact. But, why use a word they asked us to avoid using?

Asked? :lol:

[hben]

An excellent sense of humor as a matter of fact. But, why use a word they asked us to avoid using?

I thought even the Texas Rangers knew when the bad guys were just a joshin' em'. Geee, wiz. I have changed it already, so stop worryin' your sweet head about it. :shifty:

[RayMan]

Good call hben.

You must really be saved after all. :mrgreen::mrgreen: :hug::hug:

[hben]

As regards using that word in the RF?

I don't think so.

I think there is a zero tolerance policy on that one.


If you made up some off the wall name for a non-existent group it might fly but regardless of your personal prejudice there are many Democrats who are good Baptist folk.

I have some in my church, and they have big hearts. It is the organ between their ears that I am more concerned about. :cool:

BTW, if you and Meri understand the forum rules, do you also understand the rule of life that says, "It is ok for me to talk about my family members, but nobody else had better say anything bad about them." :razz:

[Meriweather]

I thought even the Texas Rangers knew when the bad guys were just a joshin' em'. Geee, wiz. I have changed it already, so stop worryin' your sweet head about it. :shifty:

Yes, I noted the change, and thank you. All worrying has now ceased. ;)

[hben]

Good call hben.

You must really be saved after all. :mrgreen::mrgreen: :hug::hug:

And you have the gift of discernment, I see.

[RayMan]

And you have the gift of discernment, I see.

Yes sir. ;)

[captusa]

Jimmy Carter is no Baptist. He is a BINO. There's a big difference between the two. Besides he is a Democrat Baptist which as everyone knows is more of a paradox than a denomination. :whistle:

I guess your version is:
Judge yee not lest thee be judged unless the one you are judging is a Democrat.

[hben]

I guess your version is:
Judge yee not lest thee be judged unless the one you are judging is a Democrat.

I sometimes fall back into my 1980 mindset when I had the right as a U.S. citizen to judge Carter by voting for Reagan. My judgement was that Carter made a much better citizen than he did president. But in the last few years, he has caused me to take a close look at his fruits once again. Before he came out of retirement into the spotlight it was unheard of for a former president to publicly criticise a sitting president as he did Bush. I joke about the Democrat/Baptist thing, but I seriously did lose what respect I had for Carter after some of his foolishness. I think he brought great embarrassment to himself as well as our country.

[hben]

<snip>“But it is necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner..."<snip>

:shhh: I try to keep it a secret...hoping God won't notice. :shifty:

[James-Jacob-Yaqub]

In the Great Commission thread optrader said, “But it is necessary for a person to believe they are a sinner, otherwise what need do they have for repentance and a savior?”

This, I felt, was a thought worthy of its own thread. How much of a sinner do we need to believe ourselves to be? For example is to say, “I am a sinner, I need to repent and accept a savior” all that is needed? I am thinking sometimes we carry the “I am a sinner” thought a bit further than it needs to be carried.

I suggest that is not a healthy attitude. How much better to say: “I am a child of God; I have been redeemed; and I have a savior who has advised and given examples for how to live a rich and fulfilling life.”

Did Jesus come with a message that we are to beat ourselves down or to lift ourselves up?

I am going to suggest that only accepting oneself as a sinner is a cop-out. We are much more than that. What say you?




What you say is the main reason I stay away from "fire breathing preachers". Yes. It is very possible to simply acknowledge that we are less than perfect beings and then work to set that right. The other approach seems good for those who require heavy emotional involvement but I believe that it is essentially an increased level of consciousness which separates the two.

JJY

[captusa]

.......Yeah, I know. Most all the Southern Baptists that I knew at the time of his presidency were truly embarrassed by his claim to be "one of us". I have always told Baptists and non-Baptists alike that I am very thankful that Jimmy Carter was our president for one term. He is the main reason that God gave us President Ronald Reagan. :flag:
......


And of course after one term of George I God gave us Bill Clinton!
TWICE!

[hben]

And of course after one term of George I God gave us Bill Clinton!
TWICE!

I have never blamed God for that, and I am afraid of lightning, so I won't start now. :eek:

[RayMan]

And of course after one term of George I God gave us Bill Clinton!
TWICE!

You complete me cap. :hug: :mrgreen:

[RayMan]

I have never blamed God for that, and I am afraid of lightning, so I won't start now. :eek:


Dude,
Lightning would be Zeus or maybe Thor. :eh::eh::eh:

[hben]

Dude,
Lightning would be Zeus or maybe Thor. :eh::eh::eh:

Well, I admit I've only had lightning used to get my attention one time in my 55 years, but that was enough. I didn't get the full jolt. I only got a small part of it. My wife and daughter were inside a store getting snacks while I pulled the car around, and I was standing in a puddle when lightning struck somewhere close. I told my wife I had been struck by lightning, and she thought I was kidding until we compared stories. At the same time I felt the shock, the power went off inside the store, and it took them a while to make change since their electronic cash register wouldn't work. She believed my story then. I was not thinking real clear after the little jolt, and I drove me and my family right into the middle of the storm. Truckers had told my wife that it was bad and not to go, but between me being still a little foggy headed, scared and plain stubborn I went directly into it. The good Lord protected us in spite of me. :shifty:

[GMScott]

It was a lightening bolt that sent Martin Luther into the monastery and on to be the greatest Christian advocate coming out of the Protestant Reformation. He went on to develop such "unheard of" doctrines as salvation by grace alone along with 94 other points of contention with the then current practices of the Roman Catholic Church.

Luther also strongly believed that the Bible should be written in the language of the common folk, so that they could read it and glean spiritual truths for themselves, without the need for translation by the Church.

That bolt of lightening was just the ticket to turn the religious world around and helped untold numbers of people into the Kingdom of God.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Poundin' nails for Habitat or forgiving him for some of his sillier public statements?

Between what he did to us during his 4 years in office and how he won't shut up now, it's the latter.

[optrader]

What you say is the main reason I stay away from "fire breathing preachers". Yes. It is very possible to simply acknowledge that we are less than perfect beings and then work to set that right. The other approach seems good for those who require heavy emotional involvement but I believe that it is essentially an increased level of consciousness which separates the two.

JJY


I am drawn to "fire breathing preachers." Do not misunderstand and think I sit around all day contemplating my evilness and believing I should be flogging myself. I am really a happy, optimistic person. I do however, find it refreshing that in todays' world, there are still preachers willing to take a stand and call sin by its name.

Our nature is such thqt we like to justify our sins. Sure, we know the preacher won't see, we know our fellow church members won't see, but the problem is, we "know" God will see becomes an abstact concept. This allows us to say "I'm a sinner, I've done this before so doing it again won't hurt." True, Jesus loves us and forgives us, but does our complacent attitude and His forgiveness really not hurt since we are saved?

This past weekend, my wife and I watched The Passion of the Christ for the first time.
They beat Him unmercifully! Every inch of His body had been beaten and torn. My wife made the comment, "I can't believe God would allow His own son to be beaten like that." Bad enough He was going to be crucified, but why such a beating? It sunk in to me that, such is the magnitude of sin that God wanted it to sink in! My sins were responsible for that beating and His death. I can not sin without remembering this. I never want to become complacent and excuse what I am responsible for. His forgiveness doesn't take that image of His bloody body away. I hope it never does...

[hben]

Between what he did to us during his 4 years in office and how he won't shut up now, it's the latter.

I'll pretend that I didn't see this post, so rumors won't get started that Koushi and I agreed again. That could be bad for both our reputations.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I'll pretend that I didn't see this post, so rumors won't get started that Koushi and I agreed again. That could be bad for both our reputations.

Don't worry about that. I also think he's an excellent representative for all the Baptist denominations.

[captusa]

Dude,
Lightning would be Zeus or maybe Thor. :eh::eh::eh:

Thor is dead.
The Teutonic Deities were mortal.

[captusa]

Well, I admit I've only had lightning used to get my attention one time in my 55 years, but that was enough. I didn't get the full jolt. I only got a small part of it. My wife and daughter were inside a store getting snacks while I pulled the car around, and I was standing in a puddle when lightning struck somewhere close. I told my wife I had been struck by lightning, and she thought I was kidding until we compared stories. At the same time I felt the shock, the power went off inside the store, and it took them a while to make change since their electronic cash register wouldn't work. She believed my story then. I was not thinking real clear after the little jolt, and I drove me and my family right into the middle of the storm. Truckers had told my wife that it was bad and not to go, but between me being still a little foggy headed, scared and plain stubborn I went directly into it. The good Lord protected us in spite of me. :shifty:

After Lee Trevino and a few other golfers were stuck by lightning indirectly as you were, he said next time he was caught in a thunderstorm he would hold up a 1 iron.
Even God can't hit a 1 iron.

[captusa]

I have never blamed God for that, and I am afraid of lightning, so I won't start now. :eek:

If God did not want Clinton to be elected TWICE, I assume HE had the power to prevent it.

[hben]

Don't worry about that. I also think he's an excellent representative for all the Baptist denominations.

I'd say he's not pure bred at all...maybe inbred. I believe he favors the Democrat side of the family much more than he favors the Baptist side. He is the crazy uncle that is kept locked up in the attic, and nobody talks about. I don't know any Baptists besides him and Bill Clinton who believe abortion is ok. If there could be an unpardonable sin other than unbelief in the Savior, murdering an innocent baby would be it, and protecting the right to legally do so would be a close second.

[RayMan]

Thor is dead.
The Teutonic Deities were mortal.

I hear he is coming back for Ragnarok.

[hben]

If God did not want Clinton to be elected TWICE, I assume HE had the power to prevent it.

You are right. God knows when America deserves a good old fashioned trip to the woodshed, and I guess we haven't learned our lesson yet.

[Koushi Shinigami]

I'd say he's not pure bred at all...




Baptists have a pedigree? News to me.

[hben]

Baptists have a pedigree? News to me.

I've owned several dogs that were pure breds, but I never got any papers on them, because it never was important to me.

[James-Jacob-Yaqub]

I am drawn to "fire breathing preachers." Do not misunderstand and think I sit around all day contemplating my evilness and believing I should be flogging myself. I am really a happy, optimistic person. I do however, find it refreshing that in todays' world, there are still preachers willing to take a stand and call sin by its name.

Our nature is such thqt we like to justify our sins. Sure, we know the preacher won't see, we know our fellow church members won't see, but the problem is, we "know" God will see becomes an abstact concept. This allows us to say "I'm a sinner, I've done this before so doing it again won't hurt." True, Jesus loves us and forgives us, but does our complacent attitude and His forgiveness really not hurt since we are saved?

This past weekend, my wife and I watched The Passion of the Christ for the first time.
They beat Him unmercifully! Every inch of His body had been beaten and torn. My wife made the comment, "I can't believe God would allow His own son to be beaten like that." Bad enough He was going to be crucified, but why such a beating? It sunk in to me that, such is the magnitude of sin that God wanted it to sink in! My sins were responsible for that beating and His death. I can not sin without remembering this. I never want to become complacent and excuse what I am responsible for. His forgiveness doesn't take that image of His bloody body away. I hope it never does...



I did not mean to offend the personal preferences of others. In that respect, I was careless with my post.

JJY

[optrader]

I did not mean to offend the personal preferences of others. In that respect, I was careless with my post.

JJY

I was not offended at all, I am not easily offended. I boldly proclaim my fudamentalism, but I do believe a person should be able to back up their beliefs with scripture and sound reasoning. I do not mind challenges to my beliefs, this is how I learn, and how I hope to challenge others to really think about what they believe and why. Thank you, though, for being considerate.