How can the French do it better and cheaper with socialism?

[livefreeordie]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.

[Demzel]

Because a memo from the health insurance companies was faxed to talking heads, stating otherwise, and a vocal minority believes everything they hear.

[WildRose]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.Why don't you go look at the criteria used by WHO to come to that conclusion.

There is no comparison of outcomes for patients with such serious diseases as heart disease, cancer, diabetes, nor traumatic injuries. The methodology for measuring infant mortality rates is not equal either. Any child born with a heart beat in this country that dies counts as "infant mortality", in most countries only a full term baby that dies counts. They do not count those babies that leave the hospital alive, but die in the first six months, while we do.

The statistics are worthless because the methodology is in no way equal from country to country and is manipulated to come out with a desired outcome from the start.

The cost of the bureaucracies needed to manage those government health systems is not counted either. In Britain, the Health Care system is the second largest single non military work force in the world, second only to the Indian national railway which is still using 19th century and early 20th century mechanization thus requiring a massive labor force.

WHO belongs in the Loo when it comes to rating health care delivery.

[55SFSDefender]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.

Don't put too much stock into the WHO report.

The WHO rankings are based on a constructed index of five factors. One factor is "health level," defined as a country's disability-adjusted life expectancy. Another is "health responsiveness," which includes desirable characteristics of healthcare like speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities.

Both of these are sensible indicators of health quality, but they constitute only 37.5 percent of each country's score. The other 62.5 percent encompasses factors only tenuously connected to the quality of care -- and that can actually punish a country's ranking for superior performance.

Take "Financial Fairness" (FF), worth 25 percent of the total. This factor measures inequality in how much households spend on healthcare as a percentage of their income. The greater the inequality, the worse the country's performance.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9259

The report is flawed in that it favors those nations that subsidize health care. It is not a valid, nor objective, report from its very design.

[SFC(R)L]

Who would want to be french, or live there?

Would you want to be princess there?

[zantax]

Why don't you go look at the criteria used by WHO to come to that conclusion.

There is no comparison of outcomes for patients with such serious diseases as heart disease, cancer, diabetes, nor traumatic injuries. The methodology for measuring infant mortality rates is not equal either. Any child born with a heart beat in this country that dies counts as "infant mortality", in most countries only a full term baby that dies counts. They do not count those babies that leave the hospital alive, but die in the first six months, while we do.

The statistics are worthless bec ause the methodology is in no way equal from country to country and is manipulated to come out with a desired outcome from the start.

The cost of the bureaucracies needed to manage those government health systems is not counted either. In Britan, the Health Care system is the second largest single non military work force in the world, second only to the indian national railway which is still using 19th century and early 20th century mechanization thus requiring a massive labor force.

WHO belongs in the Loo when it comes to rating health care delivery.


The above plus differing cultural lifestyles, the French do a lot more walking and eat healthier then we do as well.

But all that aside, if the democrats really believe socialism is the answer, they need to admit that is their goal and let Americans make an informed decision about the direction they want the country to go, capitalism or socialism. But of course they won't because they already know what the answer would be.

[Long Island Bob]

French doctors receive an avg. annual salary of $55,000.
In the US the avg. is $199,000.
http://www.blogtoplist.com/resources/blogdetails-5667.html
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=04&year=2006&base_name=on_doctors_salaries

French deaths rates from cancer are 1.5 times higher than in the US.
if you get cancer in France you are probably going to die.
If you ge tit in the US you are probably goingto live.

In france average income is $32,700
in the US it is $47,000

[Crystal]

a very close friend of mine who has dual citizenship got breast cancer. She had the option of getting it treated in the US or in France. Guess which one she chose.

[livefreeordie]

This is exactly what I was looking for and let me say, I am pleasantly surprised to not be fed a line about "death panels". Have you guys been policing the tin-foil crowd better?

Thanks again for the info, I am going to do some googling on it a little later.

[janer]

The methodology for measuring infant mortality rates is not equal either. Any child born with a heart beat in this country that dies counts as "infant mortality", in most countries only a full term baby that dies counts. They do not count those babies that leave the hospital alive, but die in the first six months, while we do.

True. For example, one statistic raised when Cuban health care is touted is that they have a low infant mortality rate. The reason for this was cited in a 2007 article on Cuban health care in the National Review: "The regime is very keen on keeping infant mortality down, knowing that the world looks to this statistic as an indicator of the general health of a country. Cuban doctors are instructed to pay particular attention to prenatal and infant care. A woman’s pregnancy is closely monitored. (The regime manages to make the necessary equipment available.) And if there is any sign of abnormality, any reason for concern — the pregnancy is “interrupted.” That is the going euphemism for abortion. The abortion rate in Cuba is sky-high, perversely keeping the infant-mortality rate down.

[55SFSDefender]

The methodology for measuring infant mortality rates is not equal either. Any child born with a heart beat in this country that dies counts as "infant mortality", in most countries only a full term baby that dies counts. They do not count those babies that leave the hospital alive, but die in the first six months, while we do.

True. For example, one statistic raised when Cuban health care is touted is that they have a low infant mortality rate. The reason for this was cited in a 2007 article on Cuban health care in the National Review: "The regime is very keen on keeping infant mortality down, knowing that the world looks to this statistic as an indicator of the general health of a country. Cuban doctors are instructed to pay particular attention to prenatal and infant care. A woman’s pregnancy is closely monitored. (The regime manages to make the necessary equipment available.) And if there is any sign of abnormality, any reason for concern — the pregnancy is “interrupted.” That is the going euphemism for abortion. The abortion rate in Cuba is sky-high, perversely keeping the infant-mortality rate down.

Its yet another example of how statistics can lie to us. The trouble I have with using metrics like this is that they are completely manipulated to paint the desired picutre. I find it ironic that countries like Cuba, with a closed system and repression, worry about what other nations think about them.

If one was to create a report on the worlds health care system it would need to be unbiased and use factors that are the same across the board. In such a report I believe the United States would do very well while other nations ranked ahead of the United States would lag.

Aren't 99% of statistics great?

[Sherri0319]

The above plus differing cultural lifestyles, the French do a lot more walking and eat healthier then we do as well.

Eat healthier than we do? Have you ever had French food?!?!?

[zantax]

Eat healthier than we do? Have you ever had French food?!?!?

Yes, I have, I've lived there in fact.

Good article on the differences that I deem to be accurate based on my experiences.

http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/the-french-diet

[ddye]

French doctors receive an avg. annual salary of $55,000.
In the US the avg. is $199,000.
http://www.blogtoplist.com/resources/blogdetails-5667.html
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=04&year=2006&base_name=on_doctors_salaries

French deaths rates from cancer are 1.5 times higher than in the US.
if you get cancer in France you are probably going to die.
If you ge tit in the US you are probably goingto live.

In france average income is $32,700
in the US it is $47,000
Cancer survival rates are indeed higher in the US. The thing is, why does that tend to be the only statistic cited by defenders of the US system? Because it's one of the only things the US leads in. That is where talking points are born...

My fiance runs a large medical practice. She told me that the truth is that the Europeans do a much better job with health maintenance and prevention, and the US does a much better job with emergency care and treatment for more serious ailments. There's no reason for talking points, why not try to fix what we do NOT do well, instead of spreading ******** about the US being the best in the world?

And France does NOT have a socialist system, they have a hybrid public/private system.

Doug

[55SFSDefender]

Cancer survival rates are indeed higher in the US. The thing is, why does that tend to be the only statistic cited by defenders of the US system? Because it's one of the only things the US leads in. That is where talking points are born...

My fiance runs a large medical practice. She told me that the truth is that the Europeans do a much better job with health maintenance and prevention, and the US does a much better job with emergency care and treatment for more serious ailments. There's no reason for talking points, why not try to fix what we do NOT do well, instead of spreading ******** about the US being the best in the world?

And France does NOT have a socialist system, they have a hybrid public/private system.

Doug

I'd argue the US leads the world in biomedical research as well. The world profits by our R&D in that they don't have to spend the money to do the research but just buy the finished product, often at reduced state costs.

[Apatriot]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.

Well, if most Americans lived in a world where greater than 35 hrs per week of work was punished by the government, we would probably reduce our health care costs (as well as our GDP).

[ddye]

I'd argue the US leads the world in biomedical research as well. The world profits by our R&D in that they don't have to spend the money to do the research but just buy the finished product, often at reduced state costs.
That might be true, but it's not very provable. And there are certainly things that Europe leads the world in also.

But it's not insurance companies that do biometric research, and we're basically talking about health care insurance reform more than anything lately. I agree that there needs to be drug industry reform also, but I didn't see that as the topic of this thread.

But you made a valid point.

Doug

[Apatriot]

Eat healthier than we do? Have you ever had French food?!?!?

It's healthier than fried chicken, big macs and french fries..... Also, it is served in reasonable sizes for it's caloric value.

[ddye]

Well, if most Americans lived in a world where greater than 35 hrs per week of work was punished by the government, we would probably reduce our health care costs (as well as our GDP).
Wow, trust this forum to somehow make the fact the Europeans are able to be productive and still have shorter work week into a bad thing...

I work 50+ hours a week and I love it, but that's a weird point to make if you're trying to trash Europeans...

Doug

[HawkeyeLonewolf]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.

WHO = UN = Anti-American

Socialized medicine doesn't work. In France either.

[johnrocks]

They had an 8 BILLION dollar deficit in 08 with 64 million people and 99% of the people still have private insurance, so I wouldn't say they do it cheaper when everything is factored in from taxes to deficits,imho.

[SFC(R)L]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,547566,00.html?loomia_ow=t0:s0:a16:g2:r2:c0 .132253:b27591088:z0

hmmm

[JerryN]

Well, if most Americans lived in a world where greater than 35 hrs per week of work was punished by the government, we would probably reduce our health care costs (as well as our GDP).

Why don't supporters of European health plans also include the tax rates of the people paying for them?

I don't know what it is in France but in the Scandanavian countries it is above 60%.
How many of you HC supporters would be happy paying twice to three times todays taxes?

You think these socialist programs are free? LOL
Government can't give you anything that it didn't take from soneone else.

[johnrocks]

French government to tackle surging health care deficit
Mon Sep 7, 2009 11:18am(hot off the press)

The French government is looking at ways to plug a gaping hole in its health care budget and may charge patients more for hospital stays, Budget Minister Eric Woerth said on Monday.

France's health system is largely financed by the state and has been hailed as the best in the world by the World Health Organization. It is also one of the most costly and the government constantly struggles to control spending.

After a 4.4 billion euro ($6.31 billion) shortfall in the health budget in 2008, Woerth said he expected the deficit to hit 10 billion euros this year and 15 billion next, with the economic downturn denting social security contributions.

"We were not far from balancing the social security books and now, with the economic (crisis) ... the deficit is taking off again," Woerth said, adding that the government would address the problem in the 2010 budget.

"We need to make savings of around 2-1/5 billion (euros) to prevent the trend for higher spending from becoming too strong."

The press reported that amongst the options under review were to increase the daily charge for hospital stays to 20 euros from 16 euros and to cut reimbursement for some over-the-counter drugs like aspirin to 15 percent from 35 percent.

Woerth confirmed that this was being studied, but declined to predict specific savings.

"When you have the most modern system (in the world) you need to take care of it. You cannot preserve it with such a high deficit," Woerth said.

France spends 11 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on healthcare -- the second highest in the world after the United States,(oh really,lol) where health costs total some 16 percent of GDP.
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE5863CN20090907

[zantax]

Why don't supporters of European health plans also include the tax rates of the people paying for them?

I don't know what it is in France but in the Scandanavian countries it is above 60%.
How many of you HC supporters would be happy paying twice to three times todays taxes?

You think these socialist programs are free? LOL
Government can't give you anything that it didn't take from soneone else.

France has a top tax rate of 48% and a 19% VAT as well.

[johnrocks]

France heat wave death toll set at 14,802
Posted 9/25/2003

The new estimate comes a day after the French Parliament released a harshly worded report blaming the deaths on a complex health system, widespread failure among agencies and health services to coordinate efforts, and chronically insufficient care for the elderly.
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2003-09-25-france-heat_x.htm

I bet those families doesn't think it's "better".

[SFC(R)L]

France heat wave death toll set at 14,802
Posted 9/25/2003

The new estimate comes a day after the French Parliament released a harshly worded report blaming the deaths on a complex health system, widespread failure among agencies and health services to coordinate efforts, and chronically insufficient care for the elderly.
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2003-09-25-france-heat_x.htm

I bet those families doesn't think it's "better".

and don't they basically shut down for all of August?

[johnrocks]

France hit by mass health strike
Wednesday, 23 January, 2002
Thousands of French family doctors have gone on strike in a dispute over pay and conditions.

The "day without doctors" is the culmination of a series of protests within the French health service, and is reported to have been supported by about 75% of general practitioners.

Some regions have reported up to 90% participation in the strike.

Many specialists, surgeons and dentists and some emergency workers are also staying at home. Hospital doctors are not involved.

The strike follows a demonstration by French nurses who took to the streets in their thousands on Tuesday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1776719.stm

I wonder how many that day thought it was "better" than ours?

[Nashville]

Here's some further insight into France's cost of heathcare.

Note the costs as well as the impact on unemployment.

http://www.city-journal.org/2009/eon0824gs.html

Excerpted:
It may indeed seem free, or close to free, for an American tourist receiving treatment in an emergency; as a French taxpayer, however, I paid a heavy price for Paretsky’s husband’s treatment. And you, my American reader, did too.

A Frenchman making a monthly salary of 3,000 euros will pay approximately 350 of them (deducted by his employer) for health insurance. Then the employer will add approximately 1,200 euros, making the total monthly cost to the employer of this individual’s services not 3,000 euros but 4,200. High labor costs in France affect not only consumer prices but also unemployment rates, since employers are reluctant to pay so much for low-skill workers. Economists agree that unemployment rates and the cost of national health insurance are directly related everywhere, which partly explains why even in periods of economic growth, the average French unemployment rate hovers around 10 percent.

High as they are, taxes on wages are not enough to cover the constant deficits that national health insurance runs.

French national health insurance is also subsidized by American patients.

[Bertha]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.

What is the tax rate in France?

[monkeymom]

The methodology for measuring infant mortality rates is not equal either. Any child born with a heart beat in this country that dies counts as "infant mortality", in most countries only a full term baby that dies counts. They do not count those babies that leave the hospital alive, but die in the first six months, while we do.

True. For example, one statistic raised when Cuban health care is touted is that they have a low infant mortality rate. The reason for this was cited in a 2007 article on Cuban health care in the National Review: "The regime is very keen on keeping infant mortality down, knowing that the world looks to this statistic as an indicator of the general health of a country. Cuban doctors are instructed to pay particular attention to prenatal and infant care. A woman’s pregnancy is closely monitored. (The regime manages to make the necessary equipment available.) And if there is any sign of abnormality, any reason for concern — the pregnancy is “interrupted.” That is the going euphemism for abortion. The abortion rate in Cuba is sky-high, perversely keeping the infant-mortality rate down.

This is a great point. I see you cite a 2007 issue of the National Review. You wouldn't happen to have a link, know the title of the piece? I would like to find the article to add to my health care reform folder.

[IndyBec]

Eat healthier than we do? Have you ever had French food?!?!?


I have lived there, too, and a major difference in rich foods is quality versus quantity. And what they do eat is burned more by the walking which they are able to do more often in their horse-and-buggy infrastructure.

[johnrocks]

French studying IHC's high-quality care

What France's health care system does especially well is provide good care with equal access to all, regardless of income, age and "existing conditions." It was a democratic ideal that worked well when there was enough money to pay for it, says Teil, but it has become problematic as costs have risen, baby boomers have aged and the economy has stalled.

Maybe it's time to rethink the extent of France's notion of egalite when it comes to, for example, providing 100 percent of the costs for knee replacements and other "comfort services," she says. "We need to raise those issues to the population, because it's not sustainable anymore."

"there is no incentive to be the best, because nobody will know you're the best besides you."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070826/ai_n19490720/

They are going broke.

[monkeymom]

Cancer survival rates are indeed higher in the US. The thing is, why does that tend to be the only statistic cited by defenders of the US system? Because it's one of the only things the US leads in. That is where talking points are born...

My fiance runs a large medical practice. She told me that the truth is that the Europeans do a much better job with health maintenance and prevention, and the US does a much better job with emergency care and treatment for more serious ailments. There's no reason for talking points, why not try to fix what we do NOT do well, instead of spreading ******** about the US being the best in the world?

And France does NOT have a socialist system, they have a hybrid public/private system.

Doug

Great points Doug, and I totally agree - fix the things that we do not do well. The problem with the current Democrat proposal is it is far to broad in scope so the fear is that it will result in as many (or more) negative changes as it will good changes.

[johnrocks]

What is the tax rate in France?

They have a lot of taxes and also a VAT. Healthcare ain't anymore free there than my waistline is 28 inches.

[Guild-Sfire]

The above plus differing cultural lifestyles, the French do a lot more walking and eat healthier then we do as well.

But all that aside, if the democrats really believe socialism is the answer, they need to admit that is their goal and let Americans make an informed decision about the direction they want the country to go, capitalism or socialism. But of course they won't because they already know what the answer would be.

We are already a blend of Capitalism and Socialism.

Once people realize that......the Right's attempt to label anything socialist as bad.....will be exposed......

[johnrocks]

I wonder what France's system is going to be like when they get as fat as us?

France heading for US obesity levels says study
By Anthony Fletcher, 01-Feb-2006

For France, which has had the lowest prevalence of obesity among nine northern European countries and among the lowest of westernised countries in the world, these results raise some important social and cultural questions.
http://www.foodnavigator.com/Science-Nutrition/France-heading-for-US-obesity-levels-says-study

IMHO, being one of the lowest obese rated nations has helped and is one of our biggest problems, how is that going to be solved by govt. while maintaining our freedom?

[monkeymom]

They have a lot of taxes and also a VAT. Healthcare ain't anymore free there than my waistline is 28 inches.

Sorry to be so dense johnrocks, but what is VAT?

[johnrocks]

We are already a blend of Capitalism and Socialism.

Once people realize that......the Right's attempt to label anything socialist as bad.....will be exposed......

That is so true, I couldn't agree more, why we have so many problems is because we have so much govt. intervention,imho.:hug:

[johnrocks]

Sorry to be so dense johnrocks, but what is VAT?

Value Added Tax..like a national sales tax in addition to the income tax and all their other taxes to make their health care "freeeeeeeeeeeee":dance::dance::dance:

[WildRose]

The above plus differing cultural lifestyles, the French do a lot more walking and eat healthier then we do as well.

But all that aside, if the democrats really believe socialism is the answer, they need to admit that is their goal and let Americans make an informed decision about the direction they want the country to go, capitalism or socialism. But of course they won't because they already know what the answer would be.Roughly 60% of our health care system is socialist now with Medicaid and Medicare. Both are bankrupt, so the democrats solution is to put us all into the same system to avoid their total collapse.

Isnt' that like blowing a hole in the bottom of your ship because it already has a leak in order to fix it?

If government involvement was the answer it would already be fixed and we wouldn't have any complaints.

The simple fact is 85% of US citizens are covered already and 75% of us are either happy or very happy.

What else can that many Americans agree on? Why the hell would you scrap something that that many of us are happy with?

It's INSANE!

[Jim50]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.

Let's see. The French healthcare system in imploding. That sure is better. Ya, right.

French government to tackle surging health care deficit
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE5863CN20090907

French healthcare is 'badly run'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3423159.stm

[monkeymom]

Value Added Tax..like a national sales tax in addition to the income tax and all their other taxes to make their health care "freeeeeeeeeeeee":dance::dance::dance:

I think I need more coffee - can't believe I missed that!

What's the old saying our grandparents used to tell us? Oh yeah - NOTHING is free. And my kids would reply - details mom, details.

[Jim50]

a very close friend of mine who has dual citizenship got breast cancer. She had the option of getting it treated in the US or in France. Guess which one she chose.


Just kidding! :)

[johnrocks]

I think I need more coffee - can't believe I missed that!

What's the old saying our grandparents used to tell us? Oh yeah - NOTHING is free. And my kids would reply - details mom, details.

lol, Grandparents were wise. Also people don't seem to take care of what is "free" or they use and abuse. I had Adobe PDF for years and it was free, I never paid much attention until I needed to buy some Adobe for my business and it was $300, I guard that CD like it's a 3 day old baby.:lol:

[IndyBec]

My husband is French-born. His father is a veteran who lost a chunk of his calf from a bayonet about 50 years ago. He still goes to a health spa for 3 weeks once a year, covered through his government plan. My mother-in-law has multiple schlerosis and goes to the health spa once a year as well for treatment. She takes a ton of medicine all the time as well. So you could say that they're happy with their health care. My husband, however, was a CNC machinist for the French Navy for 10 years and his salary, upon leaving was 16K a year. He has been perfectly happy living in the US and enjoying the greater economic opportunity. He is in IT now with a degree behind him, is highly qualified but we can find no positions comparable to what he can find in the US, nor Switzerland. Switzerland is a unique animal, with a comparatively uncentralized government, an twice the average income as surrounding European countries, and private-public health industry with no public option but assistance for the poor:

Switzerland (http://http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/03/is_switzerland_a_model_of_health_care_compromise.p hp), which enables universal coverage without any governmental insurance through this system, benefits from costs 40 percent lower than the U.S. and, unlike the single-payer systems in the U.K. or Canada, excellent results for the sick.

We have French friends in different situations. Some of his former co-workers "retired" early because unemployment was more than their government salary. Other friends bust their butts t0 pay the high taxes and raise families and live very modestly.

The problem with a universal healthcare, and how France works is it commits to 70% coverage and citizens have the option to buy private supplemental plans for the remaining 30%. If that much is being paid, and they are generally healthier than us, AND the program is rife with debt, can we even imagine such a program in the US? Fortunately that's not on the table yet.

[johnrocks]

My husband is French-born. His father is a veteran who lost a chunk of his calf from a bayonet about 50 years ago. He still goes to a health spa for 3 weeks once a year, covered through his government plan. My mother-in-law has multiple schlerosis and goes to the health spa once a year as well for treatment. She takes a ton of medicine all the time as well. So you could say that they're happy with their health care. My husband, however, was a CNC machinist for the French Navy for 10 years and his salary, upon leaving was 16K a year. He has been perfectly happy living in the US and enjoying the greater economic opportunity. He is in IT now with a degree behind him, is highly qualified but we can find no positions comparable to what he can find in the US, nor Switzerland. Switzerland is a unique animal, with a comparatively uncentralized government, an twice the average income as surrounding European countries, and private-public health industry with no public option but assistance for the poor:



We have French friends in different situations. Some of his former co-workers "retired" early because unemployment was more than their government salary. Other friends bust their butts t0 pay the high taxes and raise families and live very modestly.

The problem with a universal healthcare, and how France works is it commits to 70% coverage and citizens have the option to buy private supplemental plans for the remaining 30%. If that much is being paid, and they are generally healthier than us, AND the program is rife with debt, can we even imagine such a program in the US? Fortunately that's not on the table yet.

Good info Indy!

[mgifford]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.

It's mainly because they don't have "clothes dryers & air conditioning".

[bloods vs crips]

Value Added Tax..like a national sales tax in addition to the income tax and all their other taxes to make their health care "freeeeeeeeeeeee":dance::dance::dance:

best part about it, most people don't know it because it's included in the price. Europeans always bitch about paying US sales tax, then I laugh and ask them why they think it's cheaper to buy that product in the US. Eventually they grasp that we WANT to know what tax we are paying.

[mgifford]

Here's a thought: Why don't all the America hating, always ready to bash the country that feeds them, socialistic, weirdo, jackasses, lay off my country & leave it the hell alone?

[ddye]

Here's a thought: Why don't all the America hating, always ready to bash the country that feeds them, socialistic, weirdo, jackasses, lay off my country & leave it the hell alone?
Because:

1. Saying that America is not number one in everything is not "bashing America"

2. It seems that you are posting from the Vietnam War era. It reminds me of "My country, right or wrong", not the most pragmatic way to solve problems...

Health care reform will make America BETTER, in that we would still be able to AFFORD insurance in 15 years. I'll support ANY reform that accomplishes that, from either party. The problem is that when the GOP controlled Congress and the White House they didn't do anything about it, so we're sort of stuck with the Democrats' plan. The GOP has no one to blame but themselves, they had their chance. If they would have done something about it, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Doug

[MrShotShot]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.



Apparently they can't:

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE5863CN20090907

PARIS (Reuters) - The French government is looking at ways to plug a gaping hole in its health care budget and may charge patients more for hospital stays, Budget Minister Eric Woerth said on Monday.

France's health system is largely financed by the state and has been hailed as the best in the world by the World Health Organization. It is also one of the most costly and the government constantly struggles to control spending.

After a 4.4 billion euro ($6.31 billion) shortfall in the health budget in 2008, Woerth said he expected the deficit to hit 10 billion euros this year and 15 billion next, with the economic downturn denting social security contributions.

[mgifford]

A Democrat politician was asked last year about the "FairTax". Will you vote for it & will it pass? His answer was, "yes, but only when we're in charge & we get the credit". All politicians are "power hungry jackasses", but the liberals are (dangerous) "power hungry jackasses".

[ShinGouki]

Who would want to be french, or live there?

Would you want to be princess there?

Well, there is the French Foreign Legion... Great pay.

[SFC(R)L]

Well, there is the French Foreign Legion... Great pay.

Noted.

But they aren't in france, n'est-ce pas?

[mgifford]

PS, there's a BIG difference in stating the truth about the problems that our wonderful country has & ALWAYS being ready to hate on the country that has fed your ass for many years .

[IndyBec]

Because:

1. Saying that America is not number one in everything is not "bashing America"

2. It seems that you are posting from the Vietnam War era. It reminds me of "My country, right or wrong", not the most pragmatic way to solve problems...

Health care reform will make America BETTER, in that we would still be able to AFFORD insurance in 15 years. I'll support ANY reform that accomplishes that, from either party. The problem is that when the GOP controlled Congress and the White House they didn't do anything about it, so we're sort of stuck with the Democrats' plan. The GOP has no one to blame but themselves, they had their chance. If they would have done something about it, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Doug


Ron Paul (http://http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul339.html) tried in 2006:

HR 3075 provides truly comprehensive health care reform by allowing families to claim a tax credit for the rising cost of health insurance premiums. With many families now spending close to $1000 or even more for their monthly premiums, they need real tax relief – including a dollar-for-dollar credit for every cent they spend on health care premiums – to make medical care more affordable.

HR 3076 is specifically designed to address the medical malpractice crisis that threatens to drive thousands of American doctors – especially obstetricians – out of business. The bill provides a dollar-for-dollar tax credit that permits consumers to purchase "negative outcomes" insurance prior to undergoing surgery or other serious medical treatments. Negative outcomes insurance is a novel approach that guarantees those harmed receive fair compensation, while reducing the burden of costly malpractice litigation on the health care system. Patients receive this insurance payout without having to endure lengthy lawsuits, and without having to give away a large portion of their award to a trial lawyer. This also drastically reduces the costs imposed on physicians and hospitals by malpractice litigation. Under HR 3076, individuals can purchase negative outcomes insurance at essentially no cost.

HR 3077 makes it more affordable for parents to provide health care for their children. It creates a $500 per child tax credit for medical expenses and prescription drugs that are not reimbursed by insurance. It also creates a $3,000 tax credit for dependent children with terminal illnesses, cancer, or disabilities. Parents who are struggling to pay for their children's medical care, especially when those children have serious health problems or special needs, need every extra dollar.

HR 3078 is commonsense, compassionate legislation for those suffering from cancer or other terminal illnesses. The sad reality is that many patients battling serious illnesses will never collect Social Security benefits – yet they continue to pay into the Social Security system. When facing a medical crisis, those patients need every extra dollar to pay for medical care, travel, and family matters. HR 3078 waives the employee portion of Social Security payroll taxes (or self-employment taxes) for individuals with documented serious illnesses or cancer. It also suspends Social Security taxes for primary caregivers with a sick spouse or child. There is no justification or excuse for collecting Social Security taxes from sick individuals who literally are fighting for their lives.

[ValricoKate]

I haven't much time ...was just skimming the threads before I have to run off.
But I couldn't let this thread just sit here ...Apologies if someone has already pointed out this article from Reuters .

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE5863CN20090907

French government to tackle surging health care deficit
Mon Sep 7, 2009 11:18am EDT

PARIS (Reuters) - The French government is looking at ways to plug a gaping hole in its health care budget and may charge patients more for hospital stays, Budget Minister Eric Woerth said on Monday.

France's health system is largely financed by the state and has been hailed as the best in the world by the World Health Organization. It is also one of the most costly and the government constantly struggles to control spending.

read more at the link.

[JerryN]

Here's a thought: Why don't all the America hating, always ready to bash the country that feeds them, socialistic, weirdo, jackasses, lay off my country & leave it the hell alone?

Here's another thought:
If those other countries that have government health care are so great, why aren't those desiring such a system moving there in droves?

What has been the experience of the states that are trying to do this? Net inflow or outflow?
Anyone from Massachusetts? Oregon? Hawaii? others?

[content]

a very close friend of mine who has dual citizenship got breast cancer. She had the option of getting it treated in the US or in France. Guess which one she chose.


Did she have insurance in the U.S.?

[johnrocks]

I'm still waiting for the answer with bated breath :)

I just did a quick calculation and *if* we were taxed here;with income tax AND a VAT; like in France, my taxes would be higher than anything I've EVER paid out of pocket for, for medical care. In fact, based on my weekly grocery bill and other costs each month alone, I'd be paying thousands of dollars more due to the VAT.

$40000 out of pocket didn't have to happen and even if it did, statistically, your odds of winning the lottery is as high as having a million dollar health procedure.

[johnrocks]

bated breath bump:whistle:

[Bluesgtr44]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.

They don't make many medical advances.....we do....with a free market economy that allows us to invest in R and D for these. They don't.......they wait for us to show them what we found. I also have little respect for the WHO anymore and for good reason. They, like other universal entities want to bring America "down a few notches"....

[janer]

This is a great point. I see you cite a 2007 issue of the National Review. You wouldn't happen to have a link, know the title of the piece? I would like to find the article to add to my health care reform folder.

http://www.nationalreview.com/nordlinger/nordlinger_cuba7-30-07.asp

[victwells]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.
You should go to France if it is sooo good there!! Who has become like the UN these days!!!! I have stopped listening to them , they are mixing politics in it now!!!!

[waynevan]

French doctors receive an avg. annual salary of $55,000.
In the US the avg. is $199,000.
http://www.blogtoplist.com/resources/blogdetails-5667.html
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=04&year=2006&base_name=on_doctors_salaries

French deaths rates from cancer are 1.5 times higher than in the US.
if you get cancer in France you are probably going to die.
If you ge tit in the US you are probably goingto live.

In france average income is $32,700
in the US it is $47,000

I WANT my doctor to be very well paid.

[fava]

An interesting fact on life expectancy and open borders. over a million Cubans left Cuba during the Castro takeover. There is a record of them being born in Cuba, but there will never be a death certificate of them dying there.
You can say the same for the million South Vietnam people who came here after the war and the ten million or so Mexicans here illegally.
Not dying in their Country gives a boost to their life expectancy while them dying here causes ours to be reduced.

[Bluesgtr44]

Oh really, then we should inform the French and Germans they're wrong on these?

I know, let's just say they were Americans. Sounds better!

Ahhh yes, the universal plot to destroy us! Of course! It's Boris and Natasha causing all the evil! So what does your opinion have to do with the facts? Because they are on your 'discredit' list we should ignore their research? Again, extreme and blatant misstatements intended merely to maintain a right-wing approach.

Okay, I could have stated it better.....they were nowhere near the level we were and you know it. So, oopsie on me for making it seem as though these other countries don't do any at all. Capitalism moved modern medicine......not socialism.

[Bluesgtr44]

Because:

1. Saying that America is not number one in everything is not "bashing America"

2. It seems that you are posting from the Vietnam War era. It reminds me of "My country, right or wrong", not the most pragmatic way to solve problems...

Health care reform will make America BETTER, in that we would still be able to AFFORD insurance in 15 years. I'll support ANY reform that accomplishes that, from either party. The problem is that when the GOP controlled Congress and the White House they didn't do anything about it, so we're sort of stuck with the Democrats' plan. The GOP has no one to blame but themselves, they had their chance. If they would have done something about it, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Doug

Wake up, Doug! We can't afford SSI anymore thanks to "buy a vote" schemers. We are broke! BROKE! As far as the GOP had their chance? Yep! And you know how you guys acted.....well man up! Take it as well as you put it out......I'll help ya!

I would love the debate, Doug......we can't even get that! It's not about health care reform...it's about changing our political landscape one liberal opportunity at a time. I know it's wrong.....history knows it's wrong......and deep down you know it's wrong. It's not what America needs.....it's what a bunch of "victims" who buy the crap want!

[Kelzan]

Health care reform will make America BETTER, in that we would still be able to AFFORD insurance in 15 years. I'll support ANY reform that accomplishes that, from either party. The problem is that when the GOP controlled Congress and the White House they didn't do anything about it, so we're sort of stuck with the Democrats' plan. The GOP has no one to blame but themselves, they had their chance. If they would have done something about it, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Doug
How about tort reform and out of state competition, but the dems will only allow "reform" that gives them power.

[johnrocks]

An interesting fact on life expectancy and open borders. over a million Cubans left Cuba during the Castro takeover. There is a record of them being born in Cuba, but there will never be a death certificate of them dying there.
You can say the same for the million South Vietnam people who came here after the war and the ten million or so Mexicans here illegally.
Not dying in their Country gives a boost to their life expectancy while them dying here causes ours to be reduced.
I really hate comparing us to other countries to be honest but let us look at life expectancy,look at Japan, longest life expectancy of any group...until you look at Japanese Americans, their life expectancy is just as long as their counterparts in Japan. Culture,genetics and diet(lot of fish vs. red meat for example) plays a big role,imho.

Now look at France's obesity rate, I think it's like 15% of the population is obese compared to 60% here that is overweight to clinically obese, that is a huge reason we have such a problem with things like diabetes,heart and circulatory diseases,imho.

[darknessesedge]

I am just curious, if socialism is so evil, why are the French able to deliver the best health care in the world (according to the WHO) and do it for 9% of their GDP (we spend 17%). I am really struggling with this because I know what Jesus hates socialism, but at the same time it looks like they have out capitalismed the capitalist. They have forced the free market crowd to reject the cheaper, and better quality service over the private system.

easy
the USA protects them.
if the euro's had to foot the entire defense bill to defend themselves, they would not have hc.

want to make a level playing field?
pull all US military from the world and bring them all home.
stop all US funding for other countries.

[Jim50]

Health care reform will make America BETTER, in that we would still be able to AFFORD insurance in 15 years. I'll support ANY reform that accomplishes that, from either party. The problem is that when the GOP controlled Congress and the White House they didn't do anything about it, so we're sort of stuck with the Democrats' plan. The GOP has no one to blame but themselves, they had their chance. If they would have done something about it, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Before the government got involved in healthcare the doctor would come to your house and you'd pay him a chicken. After government got involved we have the mess we are in now. Solution??? GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF HEALTHCARE and start raising chickens!

[PaleoPaul]

easy
the USA protects them.
if the euro's had to foot the entire defense bill to defend themselves, they would not have hc.

want to make a level playing field?
pull all US military from the world and bring them all home.
stop all US funding for other countries.
Your last paragraph is exactly what should be done.

[johnrocks]

easy
the USA protects them.
if the euro's had to foot the entire defense bill to defend themselves, they would not have hc.

want to make a level playing field?
pull all US military from the world and bring them all home.
stop all US funding for other countries.

Exactly! We free up billions for the Europeans and Japan to divert to HC.

[darknessesedge]

Your last paragraph is exactly what should be done.

yeppers.
I always wondered as our infrastructure is crumbling we send billions to other countries to rebuild their countries...:rolleyes:

[johnrocks]

yeppers.
I always wondered as our infrastructure is crumbling we send billions to other countries to rebuild their countries...:rolleyes:

Makes zero sense to me also.:rolleyes:

[NCRedState]

Oh really, then we should inform the French and Germans they're wrong on these?

I know, let's just say they were Americans. Sounds better!

Ahhh yes, the universal plot to destroy us! Of course! It's Boris and Natasha causing all the evil! So what does your opinion have to do with the facts? Because they are on your 'discredit' list we should ignore their research? Again, extreme and blatant misstatements intended merely to maintain a right-wing approach.

Nobel? :lol:

The one that gave a peace price to Arafat? :hand:

The award of the Nobel prize for medicine yesterday reopened a 25-year-old controversy over the discovery of HIV by neglecting an American researcher who played a significant role in the early scientific work on Aids........

The issue of who discovered HIV became a bitter dispute in the mid-1980s when it became clear there would be huge revenues from diagnostic tests derived from the discovery. Another scientist, Professor Robert Gallo at the University of the Maryland School of Medicine in Baltimore, also claimed rights to the discovery.

There was an acrimonious dispute over patent ownership which culminated in an out of court settlement and a joint statement by then US president Ronald Reagan and French president Jacques Chirac in which both sides agreed to split the proceeds evenly....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/oct/07/medicalresearch.aids

[bitterclingerincalif]

yeppers.
I always wondered as our infrastructure is crumbling we send billions to other countries to rebuild their countries...:rolleyes:

This is the doings of both Congress and the President of both parties, though, right? Just in California, our levys are in the same state as the ones protecting New Orleans, yet more money goes to social projects than to infrastructure. The California viaduct is in a sorry state at the moment too. Priorities are all wrong in this country, but it's like any country in the world. A viaduct or levy won't buy votes, the happy face of a fed homeless child is the one that buys those votes.

How can the French do [socialism] better and cheaper than the US? How could they not? They have a smaller country and a smaller population. It's all in the numbers, isn't it?

[Crossriflesonblue]

Posted 9/25/2003 10:56 AM Updated 9/25/2003 9:23 PM

USA today.....


France heat wave death toll set at 14,802
PARIS (AP) — The death toll in France from August's blistering heat wave has reached nearly 15,000, according to a government-commissioned report released Thursday, surpassing a prior tally by more than 3,000.. .....snip

The new estimate comes a day after the French Parliament released a harshly worded report blaming the deaths on a complex health system, widespread failure among agencies and health services to coordinate efforts, and chronically insufficient care for the elderly. .....snip

Health Minister Jean-Francois Mattei has ordered a separate special study this month to look into a possible link with vacation schedules after doctors strongly denied allegations their absence put the elderly in danger. The heat wave hit during the August vacation period, when doctors, hospital staff and many others take leave. The results of that study are expected in November.

The role of vacations is a touchy subject. The National General Practitioners Union says that only about 20% of general practitioners were away during the heat wave.






Yep they sure do it better.....

[darknessesedge]

This is the doings of both Congress and the President of both parties, though, right? Just in California, our levys are in the same state as the ones protecting New Orleans, yet more money goes to social projects than to infrastructure. The California viaduct is in a sorry state at the moment too. Priorities are all wrong in this country, but it's like any country in the world. A viaduct or levy won't buy votes, the happy face of a fed homeless child is the one that buys those votes.

How can the French do [socialism] better and cheaper than the US? How could they not? They have a smaller country and a smaller population. It's all in the numbers, isn't it?

the french spend less in taxes as they do not contribute much to their own defense.

[nortman]

I'd argue the US leads the world in biomedical research as well. The world profits by our R&D in that they don't have to spend the money to do the research but just buy the finished product, often at reduced state costs.
Excellent point.

[penner01]

yeppers.
I always wondered as our infrastructure is crumbling we send billions to other countries to rebuild their countries...:rolleyes: I'm sure the administration would tell us it's only 1% of the budget. Kind of like passing a stimulus bill so you can send 900 million to Gaza. I bet that made some jobs - building rockets.

[penner01]

the french spend less in taxes as they do not contribute much to their own defense. They only use the back side of uniforms?

[gb2004]

They only use the back side of uniforms?

ba-dum-bump:))

[YouLost_ThatIsAll]

I love how the right wing bashes Europe with "Socialism" charges and act like capitalism is one of the pillars of the US Constitution when Capitalism was invented by the Europeans.

[Crossriflesonblue]

I love how the right wing bashes Europe with "Socialism" charges and act like capitalism is one of the pillars of the US Constitution when Capitalism was invented by the Europeans.

So was National Socialism.....do they cancel each other out...

[Long Island Bob]

yeppers.
I always wondered as our infrastructure is crumbling we send billions to other countries to rebuild their countries...:rolleyes:

How many billions?

stimulus = $819 billion
Tarp 1 - $750 bilion
Tarp 2 = $750 billion
Beranke's bond bailout = $800 billion
Tiny Tim Geihtner's toxic asset buybck = $400 billion


all that in one year (oh did I forget the auto bailout, the fannieand feddie bailouts? the AIG money?? what the hey? that's just a couple hundred billion why bother counting it?)


Now,
I am not saying you are wrong,
but honestly how many billions do you think we spend a year to build infrastructure in other countries?

[ValricoKate]

How many billions?

stimulus = $819 billion
Tarp 1 - $750 bilion
Tarp 2 = $750 billion
Beranke's bond bailout = $800 billion
Tiny Tim Geihtner's toxic asset buybck = $400 billion


all that in one year (oh did I forget the auto bailout, the fannieand feddie bailouts? the AIG money?? what the hey? that's just a couple hundred billion why bother counting it?)


Now,
I am not saying you are wrong,
but honestly how many billions do you think we spend a year to build infrastructure in other countries?

start here ...
http://www.america.gov/st/texttrans-english/2009/April/20090423145655xjsnommis0.7469141.html


not disagreeing but ...a couple hundred billion here... a couple hundred billion there
and next thing you know it's cheaper to use greenbacks to paper your walls than to buy paint.

[Long Island Bob]

start here ...
http://www.america.gov/st/texttrans-english/2009/April/20090423145655xjsnommis0.7469141.html


not disagreeing but ...a couple hundred billion here... a couple hundred billion there
and next thing you know it's cheaper to use greenbacks to paper your walls than to buy paint.

excluding miltary aid our total foreign economic aid was under $30 billion a year.
It works this way:
iraq and afghanistan: $20.21 billion
israel and egypt: $4.49 billion
all other countries combined: $2.75 billion*


NOTE: much of that puny$2.75 billion comes with strings attached e.g.
- "this money must be spent on american goods," or
- "this money must be spent on american goods made in nancy pelosi's district" or
- "this sin't even money, it's just $1 billion worth of condoms made in nancy pelosi's district."





complaining about US foreign aid being too high reminds me of the woman who buys $200 worth of shoes every week complaining that her husband has a six pack every friday.

[johnrocks]

excluding miltary aid our total foreign economic aid was under $30 billion a year.
It works this way:
iraq and afghanistan: $20.21 billion
israel and egypt: $4.49 billion
all other countries combined: $2.75 billion*


NOTE: much of that puny$2.75 billion comes with strings attached e.g.
- "this money must be spent on american goods," or
- "this money must be spent on american goods made in nancy pelosi's district" or
- "this sin't even money, it's just $1 billion worth of condoms made in nancy pelosi's district."





complaining about US foreign aid being too high reminds me of the woman who buys $200 worth of shoes every week complaining that her husband has a six pack every friday.

I'd love to see foreign aid done away with, to me it's as unconstitutional as any welfare program out there but that 30 billion isn't the whole picture,look at what is spent on the bases in Europe, the money that goes through that economy,the multiplier effect it has there and the revenue it raises for their economy.

[WildRose]

I love how the right wing bashes Europe with "Socialism" charges and act like capitalism is one of the pillars of the US Constitution when Capitalism was invented by the Europeans.Capitalism has existed since the first cave man traded three fish and a hunting knife for a stinky bride.

[fava]

Capitalism has existed since the first cave man traded three fish and a hunting knife for a stinky bride.

That case is still not resolved by the consumer protection department.

[IndyBec]

Capitalism and free market are two different things. Capitalism can exist in a free market but a free market isn't always present with capitalism.