JESUS CHRIST-THE WAY-THE TRUTH-THE LIFE. . .and nothing/no one else!

[NehemiahT]

JESUS CHRIST stated, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE; no one comes to THE FATHER except through (via/by way of) ME (John 14:6). There is no other way to GOD, truth about GOD, and life outside GOD, than "through"/via JESUS CHRIST.

Let's talk Scripture. . .and Scripture ONLY; When JESUS went out into "the wilderness", in order to get back what our forefather Adam, voluntarily and freely, gave away, The Only Weapon that HE used was THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD, against the enemy of THE WORD of GOD.

JESUS CHRIST hung on a Cross, and DIED, for my monkey acting (which is as close as I'll ever be, to being descended from, and/or having a common ancestor with, a monkey) behind; and three (3) days later, HE RESURRECTED, having paid my sin debt, before THE MOST HOLY and HIGH GOD, in Full. And I can prove that, even to the most staunchest unbeliever's satisfaction, that this happened.

So then, let us discuss Scripture. . .because, personally, I'm done with all the petty arguments/debates/etc., started by people who don't believe GOD, let alone, claim to subscribe to no "religion", but yet find themselves attracted to a "religion" forum/thread, more so than any other.

"Listen to the hammering, and rejoice,
Listen to the hammering, and thank JESUS;
Listen to hammering, for HE'S taken everything,
that was against us, and nailed it to HIS Cross."

David, The King, shows us just how personal THE GOD, that some here don't believe in, was to him and should/would/could be to any one of us:

"THE LORD is my SHEPHERD;
I shall not want.
HE makes me to lie down in green pastures:
HE leads me beside the still waters.
HE restores my soul:
HE leads me in the paths of righteousness for HIS NAME's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil:
for THOU art with me;
THY rod and THY staff they comfort me.
THOU prepares a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
THOU anoints my head with oil;
my cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of THE LORD for ever."

Its a total waste of my time to try and prove to you that GOD IS, just as it is a waste of your time, to try and explain to me why you don't don't believe that HE IS; So then, Let's just talk Scripture!!! Anybody willing?:think::think::think:

I'll even get the ball to rolling, by stating, emphatically, Cain's wife, was not his sister. . .nor even a distant relative. . .and Adam (of "the Garden") wasn't the first human that GOD Created. And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine".

[vir doctus]

I'll even get the ball to rolling, by stating, emphatically, Cain's wife, was not his sister. . .nor even a distant relative. . .and Adam (of "the Garden") wasn't the first human that GOD Created. And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine".


:eh: Which scripture?

[CID_0687]

Hey Nehemiah...just to let you know, I am a Christian..but do have a couple of questions for you..

What do you think about those who perhaps live someplace where the Gospel has never been taught...perhaps they're in a part of South America or an Asian jungle that missionaries haven't been able to reach...yet these people love God, without knowing the name Jesus, what happens to them, in your opinion?

And the Jews who still live under the Law, are they serving God, even though they don't believe Jesus to be the Messiah?

[vir doctus]

...yet these people love God, without knowing the name Jesus, what happens to them, in your opinion?


"Jesus" is kind of English sounding... :think:

[CID_0687]

"Jesus" is kind of English sounding... :think:
Hey Zeus?

Yeshua?

[Poisonshady313]

Hey Zeus?

Yeshua?

Zeus: Why you keep calling me Jésus? I look Puerto Rican to you?
John McClane: Guy back there called you Jésus.
Zeus: He didn't say Jésus. He said, "Hey, Zeus!" My name is Zeus.
John McClane: Zeus?
Zeus: Yeah, Zeus! As in, father of Apollo? Mt. Olympus? Don't **** with me or I'll shove a lightning bolt up your ass? Zeus! You got a problem with that?
John McClane: No, I don't have a problem with that.

[CID_0687]

Zeus: Why you keep calling me Jésus? I look Puerto Rican to you?
John McClane: Guy back there called you Jésus.
Zeus: He didn't say Jésus. He said, "Hey, Zeus!" My name is Zeus.
John McClane: Zeus?
Zeus: Yeah, Zeus! As in, father of Apollo? Mt. Olympus? Don't **** with me or I'll shove a lightning bolt up your ass? Zeus! You got a problem with that?
John McClane: No, I don't have a problem with that.
:lol:

[Pastor C]

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we MUST BE SAVED:hug:

[Lie Sniper]

JESUS CHRIST stated, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE; no one comes to THE FATHER except through (via/by way of) ME (John 14:6). There is no other way to GOD, truth about GOD, and life outside GOD, than "through"/via JESUS CHRIST.

Let's talk Scripture. . .and Scripture ONLY; When JESUS went out into "the wilderness", in order to get back what our forefather Adam, voluntarily and freely, gave away, The Only Weapon that HE used was THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD, against the enemy of THE WORD of GOD.

JESUS CHRIST hung on a Cross, and DIED, for my monkey acting (which is as close as I'll ever be, to being descended from, and/or having a common ancestor with, a monkey) behind; and three (3) days later, HE RESURRECTED, having paid my sin debt, before THE MOST HOLY and HIGH GOD, in Full. And I can prove that, even to the most staunchest unbeliever's satisfaction, that this happened.

So then, let us discuss Scripture. . .because, personally, I'm done with all the petty arguments/debates/etc., started by people who don't believe GOD, let alone, claim to subscribe to no "religion", but yet find themselves attracted to a "religion" forum/thread, more so than any other.

"Listen to the hammering, and rejoice,
Listen to the hammering, and thank JESUS;
Listen to hammering, for HE'S taken everything,
that was against us, and nailed it to HIS Cross."

David, The King, shows us just how personal THE GOD, that some here don't believe in, was to him and should/would/could be to any one of us:

"THE LORD is my SHEPHERD;
I shall not want.
HE makes me to lie down in green pastures:
HE leads me beside the still waters.
HE restores my soul:
HE leads me in the paths of righteousness for HIS NAME's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil:
for THOU art with me;
THY rod and THY staff they comfort me.
THOU prepares a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
THOU anoints my head with oil;
my cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of THE LORD for ever."


:confused: Is this Psalm above supposed to...........

Its a total waste of my time to try and prove to you that GOD IS, just as it is a waste of your time, to try and explain to me why you don't don't believe that HE IS; So then, Let's just talk Scripture!!! Anybody willing?:think::think::think:

.....back up this claim below?

I'll even get the ball to rolling, by stating, emphatically, Cain's wife, was not his sister. . .nor even a distant relative. . .and Adam (of "the Garden") wasn't the first human that GOD Created. And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine".

[NehemiahT]

What do you think about those who perhaps live someplace where the Gospel has never been taught...perhaps they're in a part of South America or an Asian jungle that missionaries haven't been able to reach...yet these people love God, without knowing the name Jesus, what happens to them, in your opinion?Hey, Hey Cid; David lived in "someplace where the Gospel" had "never been taught"; yet he was saved. Think on the Scripture, my sibling, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. (Ps. 19:1)", remember? Or this one, "The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. (97:6)".
Consider Abram (later Abraham), from a pagan country, heard the voice of GOD ('get out of your daddy's house...'). . .and the rest is History, right? And yet again, Abram/Abraham, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (Gen. 15:6)"

Think about it, what law were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, under?

WHO was JESUS CHRIST before HE became JESUS CHRIST? The answer to this question is how anybody, anybody, anybody, is saved. Remember, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD".

And the Jews who still live under the Law, are they serving God, even though they don't believe Jesus to be the Messiah?
As for "the Law", it was never meant to be lived under/kept, but rather to show that, from THE PERFECT GOD, it couldn't be kept, and they'd realize, like Paul did, that, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.", and the only way to live after one has died is to Look on THE LORD and/or Believe. Remember the "Bronze serpent"?
The law, is like a mirror; it shows you what's wrong. . .but it can't do diddly to fix what is wrong. . .ONLY JESUS CHRIST [THE WORD of GOD] could/can fix it.
The only way to serve GOD under the law is to be as perfect under the Law, as GOD IS; now how perfect under the law is GOD? Absolute Perfect! HE has never violated ("broken") any law at any time. Now show me one person who has kept the law of Moses perfectly and I'll show you JESUS CHRIST/MESSIAH.

[vir doctus]

Hey, Hey Cid; David lived in "someplace where the Gospel" had "never been taught"; yet he was saved. Think on the Scripture, my sibling, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. (Ps. 19:1)", remember? Or this one, "The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. (97:6)".
Consider Abram (later Abraham), from a pagan country, heard the voice of GOD ('get out of your daddy's house...'). . .and the rest is History, right? And yet again, Abram/Abraham, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (Gen. 15:6)"

Think about it, what law were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, under?

WHO was JESUS CHRIST before HE became JESUS CHRIST? The answer to this question is how anybody, anybody, anybody, is saved. Remember, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD".




If you speak in a straight line, I might be able to track you...

[Semi-Sweet]

What does Cain's wife have to do with Jesus being the "way, truth and life?" :think:

[Drawz]

JESUS CHRIST hung on a Cross, and DIED, for my monkey acting (which is as close as I'll ever be, to being descended from, and/or having a common ancestor with, a monkey) behind; and three (3) days later, HE RESURRECTED, having paid my sin debt, before THE MOST HOLY and HIGH GOD, in Full. And I can prove that, even to the most staunchest unbeliever's satisfaction, that this happened.

Bet ya can't.
Go ahead, give it your best shot. I'm all ears (eyes).

*bold added by me.

[Drawz]

If you speak in a straight line, I might be able to track you...

"Serpentine! Serpentine!"

[captusa]

.......I'll even get the ball to rolling, by stating, emphatically, Cain's wife, was not his sister. . .nor even a distant relative. . .and Adam (of "the Garden") wasn't the first human that GOD Created. And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine".
[/LEFT]
[/CENTER]

According to you who was the 1st human GOD created ?
Chapter and verse would be interesting.

Also scriptual source for your claim about Cain's wife.

[NehemiahT]

According to you who was the 1st human GOD created ?
Chapter and verse would be interesting.That would be "mankind"; Genesis 1:26-28. . .all 3 three verses, otherwise you'll miss it. And the Adam, of "the Garden of Eden", didn't come along until, Genesis 2:7.

Also scriptual source for your claim about Cain's wife.Genesis 4:1-2;14-17;25; 6:1-4.

[Drawz]

Bet ya can't.
Go ahead, give it your best shot. I'm all ears (eyes).

*bold added by me.

???
Well?

[Poisonshady313]

As for "the Law", it was never meant to be lived under/kept, but rather to show that, from THE PERFECT GOD, it couldn't be kept...

The entire body of text you might refer to as the "old testament" is full of plenty of scripture that proves you wrong...

Though I think I should direct you towards Deuteronomy chapter 30.

And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you,

and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children,

then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you.

Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there.

And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers.

And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life.

And the Lord, your God, will place all these curses upon your enemies and upon your adversaries, who pursued you.

And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His commandments, which I command you this day.

And the Lord, your God, will make you abundant for good in all the work of your hands, in the fruit of your womb, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the Lord will once again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your forefathers,

when you obey the Lord, your God, to observe His commandments and His statutes written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.

It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.

Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,

inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, and to observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it.

But if your heart deviates and you do not listen, and you will be drawn astray, and you will prostrate yourself to other deities and serve them,

I declare to you this day, that you will surely perish, and that you will not live long days on the land, to which you are crossing the Jordan, to come and take possession thereof.

This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall choose life, so that you and your offspring will live;

To love the Lord your God, to listen to His voice, and to cleave to Him. For that is your life and the length of your days, to dwell on the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob to give to them.

[Poisonshady313]

That would be "mankind"; Genesis 1:26-28. . .all 3 three verses, otherwise you'll miss it. And the Adam, of "the Garden of Eden", didn't come along until, Genesis 2:7.


Transliteration of the Hebrew the Torah was written in.... Genesis 1:26

Vayomer elohim na'aseh adam b'tzalmaynu kidmutaynu v'yirdu vidgat hayam ki tov.

And God said, "Let us make man (ADAM) in Our image, after Our likeness."

[Poisonshady313]

That would be "mankind"; Genesis 1:26-28. . .all 3 three verses, otherwise you'll miss it. And the Adam, of "the Garden of Eden", didn't come along until, Genesis 2:7.

Chapter 1 showed the outline of creation... Chapter 2 was a recap in more detail.

[CID_0687]

:doh:

[Stantz]

So then, let us discuss Scripture. . .because, personally, I'm done with all the petty arguments/debates/etc., started by people who don't believe GOD, let alone, claim to subscribe to no "religion", but yet find themselves attracted to a "religion" forum/thread, more so than any other.


Actually many atheists view Religion as a very interesting topic, how it has effected human life and culture, seeing it as man's very first attempt at philosophy, and understanding of the world around him.
I am also very interested in Norse mythology, as well as the Roman polytheistic pagan traditions - it does not mean i believe in Thor, Zeus, or Neptune.

[NehemiahT]

Transliteration of the Hebrew the Torah was written in.... Genesis 1:26

Vayomer elohim na'aseh adam b'tzalmaynu kidmutaynu v'yirdu vidgat hayam ki tov.

And God said, "Let us make man (ADAM) in Our image, after Our likeness."

". . .after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth. (vss. 26-28)" And, according to your rationale, GOD then puts Adam in the Garden, to dress it and keep it. . .nowhere near "the sea".

Chapter 1 showed the outline of creation... Chapter 2 was a recap in more detail.Not so; because vs. 31 of Chapter 1, ends with, "And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."; whereas in Chapter 2, vss. 1-3 we see what transpired on "the seventh day"; and please note that "man" and/or "them", from Chapter 1, now becomes "the man", and/or "him/his", in Chapter 2. And then, notice the introduction of a new word in Chapter 2, "field". . .as opposed to "earth", exclusively in Chapter 1. . .which really puts a damper on the myth that Adam, of the Garden of Eden, named all the animals of the "earth".

[Harmonious]

I was going to ignore this thread as an attractive nuisance, until a few people I respected jumped in.

Though it goes against my better judgment, I figured it might be useful to throw in my two cents.

Hey, Hey Cid; David lived in "someplace where the Gospel" had "never been taught"; yet he was saved.Yeah. He was saved from many things. He was saved from Goliath, he was saved from King Saul, he was saved from a myriad of enemies, he was saved from his son Absalom, he was saved from dying alone in the desert.

The idea of his "being saved" in the way that you are thinking would have been completely foreign and meaningless to him.

Think on the Scripture, my sibling, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. (Ps. 19:1)", remember? Or this one, "The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. (97:6)".Yup, although I have no idea what you are trying to prove with these verses. I'm glad you like them.

Consider Abram (later Abraham), from a pagan country, heard the voice of GOD ('get out of your daddy's house...'). . .and the rest is History, right? And yet again, Abram/Abraham, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (Gen. 15:6)"

Think about it, what law were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, under?The Seven Laws of Noah. They had the same laws that the rest of humanity had. Until God gave Abraham the commandment of circumcision. And He gave Jacob the law of not eating an animal's sciatic nerve.

WHO was JESUS CHRIST before HE became JESUS CHRIST? The answer to this question is how anybody, anybody, anybody, is saved.This only has meaning if you believed that you need to be saved in the first place.

Remember, "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of GOD".Yup. Living by the Torah as a Jew, or the Seven Laws of Noah as a non-Jew, and loving God and man will get that accomplished quite nicely.

As for "the Law", it was never meant to be lived under/kept, Says someone who probably never tried.

As someone who lives by Torah law, it is perfectly reasonable to live by them, though at times it is expensive and inconvenient, but hey - following the Torah is worth going the extra mile.

but rather to show that, from THE PERFECT GOD, it couldn't be kept, and they'd realize,Or rather, that JESUS said it couldn't be kept. I realize that, to you, they are one and the same thing. However, they are not necessarily, except in your heart and mind.

like Paul did, that, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.", and the only way to live after one has died is to Look on THE LORD and/or Believe.I'm glad that means something to you. Truly. You appear to be happy.

But this means absolutely nothing to me. I am happy with my believe in God, and have nothing to do with Jesus, who is irrelevant to me. It is a beautiful thing.

Remember the "Bronze serpent"?Yup. Making sure to acknowledge God was the key. Mistaking the serpent for being the real deal is a travesty, and that is why King Hezekiah had it melted down.

The law, is like a mirror; it shows you what's wrong. . .Not at all. The law is an infinite well of merit, giving us any number of things to do right.

God never demanded perfection, as no one is perfect but God. He demanded that we try our best, and He'll do the rest.

From the Ethics of the Fathers in Chapter 2, it says:
15. Rabbi Tarfon would say: The day is short, the work is much, the workers are lazy, the reward is great, and the Master is pressing.

16. He would also say: It is not incumbent upon you to finish the task, but neither are you free to absolve yourself from it. If you have learned much Torah, you will be greatly rewarded, and your employer is trustworthy to pay you the reward of your labors. And know, that the reward of the righteous is in the World to Come.

but it can't do diddly to fix what is wrong. . .ONLY JESUS CHRIST [THE WORD of GOD] could/can fix it.So you say, and so you believe. Which I'm happy that you are so happy in your belief.

However, this means nothing at all to me.

The only way to serve GOD under the law is to be as perfect under the Law,God never said to be perfect. He said to be HOLY like He is. And God gave us directions for how to do that.
as GOD IS; now how perfect under the law is GOD? Absolute Perfect! HE has never violated ("broken") any law at any time.God never has. Jesus has plenty.
Now show me one person who has kept the law of Moses perfectlyNo one is perfect, but no one is expected to be.
and I'll show you JESUS CHRIST/MESSIAH.You may show me what you like. But that doesn't mean that he is what you say he is, no matter how much you may believe it.

[Harmonious]

". . .after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth. (vss. 26-28)"Yes, stressing the fact that God started with one human being, and separated it into two, as described in greater detail in Chapter 2, only proves the point that Genesis 2 is a recap of Genesis 1.

And, according to your rationale, GOD then puts Adam in the Garden, to dress it and keep it. . .nowhere near "the sea".So, Adam and Eve were put in the Garden. That wasn't the only place God expected them to go over the course of their lives, or even of the course of humanity.

Even if they lived in the Garden forever, there is nothing that says they couldn't have visited the rest of the World God created.

Not so; because vs. 31 of Chapter 1, ends with, "And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."; whereas in Chapter 2, vss. 1-3 we see what transpired on "the seventh day"; Please be aware that the chapter groupings of verses is not considered holy and sacred by Jews, but it is merely a useful tool to use when identifying verses in discussion.

The way Jews parse this, the seventh day is a part of the same grouping of verses (albeit a separate paragraph, as all the other days are) of the rest of Creation.

and please note that "man" and/or "them", from Chapter 1, now becomes "the man", and/or "him/his", in Chapter 2. And then, notice the introduction of a new word in Chapter 2, "field". . .as opposed to "earth", exclusively in Chapter 1. . .which really puts a damper on the myth that Adam, of the Garden of Eden, named all the animals of the "earth".Really, you are making a distinction without a difference. God put Adam and Eve in the world, and the world is distinguished in greater detail in the later verses.

[NehemiahT]

The entire body of text you might refer to as the "old testament" is full of plenty of scripture that proves you wrong...

Though I think I should direct you towards Deuteronomy chapter 30.

And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you,

and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children,

then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you.

Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there.

And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers.

And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life.

And the Lord, your God, will place all these curses upon your enemies and upon your adversaries, who pursued you.

And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His commandments, which I command you this day.

And the Lord, your God, will make you abundant for good in all the work of your hands, in the fruit of your womb, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the Lord will once again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your forefathers,

when you obey the Lord, your God, to observe His commandments and His statutes written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.

It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.

Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,

inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, and to observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it.

But if your heart deviates and you do not listen, and you will be drawn astray, and you will prostrate yourself to other deities and serve them,

I declare to you this day, that you will surely perish, and that you will not live long days on the land, to which you are crossing the Jordan, to come and take possession thereof.

This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall choose life, so that you and your offspring will live;

To love the Lord your God, to listen to His voice, and to cleave to Him. For that is your life and the length of your days, to dwell on the land which the Lord swore to your forefathers to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob to give to them.

If any person could keep GOD'S Commandment, then "do overs" would be totally unnecessary, right?

Actually, what the Scripture you reference shows is that all of the law of Moses could be summed up into that one commandment, ". . .love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul...", which keeps coming up, not only in that passage but, throughout the entire Old Testament/Tanakh. . .verbatim or not.

And because, all of mankind, not just the Jews, have a serious problem pulling off just that one commandment (which seems more like a request, and/or a hint, hint, hint than just a command), they/we can't keep any of the other commandments. . .even after GOD, continually, wipes our slates clean.

[Jacob_Rising]

If you speak in a straight line, I might be able to track you...Kinda reminds you of me don't he?

[Harmonious]

If any person could keep GOD'S Commandment, then "do overs" would be totally unnecessary, right?It's not an "all or nothing" game.

I've kept Kosher in earnest since 1987. Nary a shellfish, a piece of pork, or a combination of milk and meat entered my lips (willingly - mistakes happen).

I've done it right. There are measures I can take to do it even better than I do currently, but then again, perfection was never required.

That is only one example.

I am a divorcee, and I've never tried to marry a Cohen. I've done that perfectly.

There are countless other commandments I've done properly. I've kept the laws. Some of them, I've done with better success rates than others, but I've kept them.

Actually, what the Scripture you reference shows is that all of the law of Moses could be summed up into that one commandment, ". . .love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul...", which keeps coming up, not only in that passage but, throughout the entire Old Testament/Tanakh. . .verbatim or not. Well... All those other commandments are details to show HOW that is done.

And because, all of mankind, not just the Jews, have a serious problem pulling off just that one commandment (which seems more like a request, and/or a hint, hint, hint than just a command), they/we can't keep any of the other commandments. . .even after GOD, continually, wipes our slates clean.True. But you are probably unaware of how many laws there are that govern human interaction, as well as interaction between man and God.

They aren't meant to entrap us to show us how horribly we'll fail. They are meant to guide us and show us the proper way to live. And we get merit for trying, even if we fail sometimes.

[Jacob_Rising]

"[I][B]. . .after our likeness: And what is that Likeness?

Let's see, on one hand we have people saying, Father, Son and Holy spirit.

On the other hand we have a man and a woman.

What really is the likeness of God?

Just asking, But who is the woman in your Godhead?

And what about that most beautiful creature?

[khigh]

JESUS CHRIST hung on a Cross, and DIED, for my monkey acting (which is as close as I'll ever be, to being descended from, and/or having a common ancestor with, a monkey) behind; and three (3) days later, HE RESURRECTED, having paid my sin debt, before THE MOST HOLY and HIGH GOD, in Full. And I can prove that, even to the most staunchest unbeliever's satisfaction, that this happened.

Please, I would like to hear the proof that you have.

So then, let us discuss Scripture. . .because, personally, I'm done with all the petty arguments/debates/etc., started by people who don't believe GOD, let alone, claim to subscribe to no "religion", but yet find themselves attracted to a "religion" forum/thread, more so than any other.

So, I don't believe in your Christian God, but I do have a religion. I fit in neither category you describe. Christianity is not the only religion in the world, nor in the US. I would like to discuss religion with you, but I doubt it would be debate free.

[NehemiahT]

Jesus has plenty.According to Scripture, which one? And again, please back up your accusation with Scripture; The Tanakh is fine.

[NehemiahT]

Please, I would like to hear the proof that you have.Please allow me to just deal with THE RESURRECTION, for now.
More people (eyewitnesses) saw THE RESURRECTED JESUS CHRIST than all of the people, combined, who saw the assassinated Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley, and John Kennedy. At least 10 of HIS original 12 Disciples died martyr's deaths rather than to renounce THE RESURRECTION. . .so you have to ask yourself, "Who would die for a lie. . .especially when they knew it to be a lie?" Add to the aforementioned, the fact that no one has yet to uncover, and/nor discover, the remains of THE MOST Well Known CELEBRITY of the ages, it would be safe to state, as well as believe for certain, that THE RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST is FACT!!!

[NehemiahT]

And what is that Likeness?

Let's see, on one hand we have people saying, Father, Son and Holy spirit.

On the other hand we have a man and a woman.

What really is the likeness of God?

Just asking, But who is the woman in your Godhead?

And what about that most beautiful creature?

:lol::lol::lol:You are awesome Joel!!!:hug::think::lol:

[Jacob_Rising]

If any person could keep GOD'S Commandment, then "do overs" would be totally unnecessary, right?

Actually, what the Scripture you reference shows is that all of the law of Moses could be summed up into that one commandment, ". . .love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul...", which keeps coming up, not only in that passage but, throughout the entire Old Testament/Tanakh. . .verbatim or not.

And because, all of mankind, not just the Jews, have a serious problem pulling off just that one commandment (which seems more like a request, and/or a hint, hint, hint than just a command), they/we can't keep any of the other commandments. . .even after GOD, continually, wipes our slates clean.Do you think Your Messiah wants you to not keep the law?

Or is it that you should just keep one?

'' Do not think that I come to destroy the law or the prophets....Whoever therefore breaks one of the LEAST of these commandments, and Teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven.'' Math.6

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments, AND have the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the Saints; HERE are those{resurrected firstfruits and the only resurrected} who KEEP the commandments of God AND have the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of Life.

Acts 21:24 '' Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that ALL MAY KNOW that those things of which they were informed concerning you are NOTHING, BUT THAT YOU YOURSELF ALSO WALK ORDERLY AND KEEP THE LAW!!

Repent, for the burning awesome day of the Lord is at hand! :eh: How do we repent?

Malachi 4:3 On the day that I do this,'' says the Lord of Hosts. '' Remember the Law of Moses''

Ezekiel 37:24 '' David my servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; THEY SHALL ALSO WALK IN MY JUDGEMENTS AND OBSERVE MY STATUTES AND DO THEM.:eh:

1st John 2:3 Now by this we know that we KNOW HIM, if we keep his commandments. He who says,'' I know him,'' and does not keep his Commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps HIS word, Truly the love of God is perfected in him.

Mathew 24:20 '' And pray that your flight may not be on the Sabbath''{We have to keep from defiling the Sabbath?}

Isaiah 56: 3,4,5,6,7, to the Foriegners who choose to do what pleases me, who keep from defiling the Sabbath, who holds fast to my covenant---Those will have an inheritance?

This is a statute for you throughout all your generations, even forever. How long is forever?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one decieve you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first. {What falling away?}and the man of sin is revealed.{What is the definition of sin?} Who opposes and exhaults himself above all that is called of God{Torah}.......For the Mystery of Torahlessness is allready at work.......And then the Torahless one will be revealed......The coming of the Torahless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs and wonders.

Mathew 24:12 '' And because Torahlessness will abound''

1st Peter 4:11-- If anyone speaks, Let him speak as the Oracles of God.

1st John 3: 24 Now he who keeps his commandments abides in him. { We say,'' Jesus is the word'' Did he stop being the Old Testament word?''

So many scriptures, too little space.

Just how long is forever?

Does the law that lasts forever stop when Jesus came?

Or was the word wrong to begin with?

Is Jesus the word and against himself?

[Jacob_Rising]

'' And then I will declare to them,'' I never knew you; Depart from me, You who practice lawlessness.''

Mathew 8:4 And Jesus said to him,'' See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the Priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a Testimony to them.

Wonder why Jesus told us to do what them O'll Pharasee Priests tell us to do?

[Marquus]

The entire body of text you might refer to as the "old testament" is full of plenty of scripture that proves you wrong...

Though I think I should direct you towards Deuteronomy chapter 30.

And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you,

and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children,

then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you.

Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there.

And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers.

And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life.

And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His commandments, which I command you this day.

For the Lord will once again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your forefathers, when you obey the Lord, your God, to observe His commandments and His statutes written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.

It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.

This though can only be accomplished if you are circumcised of heart. Since most people rely on the outward appearance of being right with G-d they are only fooling themselves. This is what Y'shua and his disciples stressed again and again as well as the prophets beginning with Moshe whom you just quoted.

Yirmiyahu 4:4. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord and remove the foreskins of your heart, O people of Judah and dwellers of Jerusalem, lest My anger go forth and burn with none to quench it because of the evil of your deeds.

Yirmiyahu 9:24. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will punish every circumcised one with his uncircumcision.
25. Egypt, Judah, Edom, the children of Ammon, Moab, and all those cast off to the corners, who dwell in the desert, for all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are of uncircumcised hearts.

[NehemiahT]

Do you think Your Messiah wants you to not keep the law?Sure HE does; but HE also knows that violating any commandment for even one iota of a millisecond, disqualifies me from being able to "keep the law" perfectly. . .which is the ONLY standard that THE MOST HIGH and HOLY GOD accepts.

Or is it that you should just keep one?Keeping just the [specific] one would automatically guarantee me keeping all the rest. . .that one being, "Thou shalt love THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."; if a man's vertical relationship is Kosher, then all else just falls into place.

'' Do not think that I come to destroy the law or the prophets....Whoever therefore breaks one of the LEAST of these commandments, and Teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven.'' Math.6

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments, AND have the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the Saints; HERE are those{resurrected firstfruits and the only resurrected} who KEEP the commandments of God AND have the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of Life.

Acts 21:24 '' Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that ALL MAY KNOW that those things of which they were informed concerning you are NOTHING, BUT THAT YOU YOURSELF ALSO WALK ORDERLY AND KEEP THE LAW. { Poor Paul thought he was keeping the law}.

Repent, for the burning awesome day of the Lord is at hand! :eh: How do we repent?

Malachi 4:3 On the day that I do this,'' says the Lord of Hosts. '' Remember the Law of Moses''

Ezekiel 37:24 '' David my servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; THEY SHALL ALSO WALK IN MY JUDGEMENTS AND OBSERVE MY STATUTES AND DO THEM.:eh:

1st John 2:3 Now by this we know that we KNOW HIM, if we keep his commandments. He who says,'' I know him,'' and does not keep his Commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps HIS word, Truly the love of God is perfected in him.

Mathew 24:20 '' And pray that your flight may not be on the Sabbath''{we have to keep from defiling the Sabbath?

Isaiah 56: 3,4,5,6,7, to the Foriegners who choose to do what pleases me, who keep from defiling the Sabbath, who holds fast to my covenant---Those will have an inheritance?

This is a statute for your throughout all your generations, even forever. How long is forever?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one decieve you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first. {What falling away?}and the man of sin is revealed.{What is the definition of sin?} Who opposes and exhaults himself above all that is called of God{Torah}.......For the Mystery of Torahlessness is allready at work.......And then the Torahless one will be revealed......The coming of the Torahless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs and wonders.

Mathew 24:12 '' And because Torahlessness will abound''

1st Peter 4:11-- If anyone speaks, Let him speak as the Oracles of God.

1st John 3: 24 Now he who keeps his commandments abides in him. { We say,'' Jesus is the word'' Did he stop being the Old Testament word?''

So many scriptures, too little space.Try summing them all up, "Thou shalt love THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

Just how long is forever?Forever

Does the law that lasts forever stop when Jesus came?Naw; it just got fulfilled, and you almost quoted it above, but for whatever reason, you kinda stopped short with, "Do not think that I come to destroy the law or the prophets....Whoever therefore breaks one of the LEAST of these commandments, and Teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven." Let's see now, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17)" Now if JESUS CHRIST came "to fulfill. . .the law, or the prophets"; it must have been because...:think::think::think:

Or was the word wrong to begin with?see my last statement.

Is Jesus the word and against himself?Ditto.

[NehemiahT]

'' And then I will declare to them,'' I never knew you; Depart from me, You who practice lawlessness.''

Mathew 8:4 And Jesus said to him,'' See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the Priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a Testimony to them.

Wonder why Jesus told us to do what them O'll Pharasee Priests tell us to do?

Could it be because The Law of Moses was still applicable. . .prior to JESUS CHRIST fulfilling it:think::think::think:

[Poisonshady313]

According to Scripture, which one? And again, please back up your accusation with Scripture; The Tanakh is fine.

I'm sure Harmonious will come back with a few more examples... but she's done for the night... so in the mean time, I'll offer one... one law that Jesus violated on two separate occasions.

Deuteronomy 13:1 – All that I command you, take care to do it; you shall not add to it, and you shall not diminish from it.


Despite the fact that Jesus is recorded as having said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

It is shown that he says one thing and does another.

The law regarding divorce:

Leviticus 21:7
They [the Priests] shall not take a wife who is a harlot, or defiled; nor shall they take a woman divorced from her husband; for he is holy to his God.

Numbers 30:10
But every vow of a widow, and of her who is divorced, with which they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.

Deuteronomy 24:1-2
When a man has taken a wife, and married her, and it comes to pass that she finds no favor in his eyes, because he has found some uncleanness in her; then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she has departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.


We learn from these verses a few different things.

Divorce is permitted.
Adultery is not the only grounds for divorce.
A divorced woman may remarry, and it is not considered adultery for anyone involved.


Along comes Jesus to declare:

Matthew 5:31-32
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The words I underlined indicate immediately, regardless of the content, that Jesus is in some way adding to or taking away from the Torah. This alone is a violation of the law not to add or to take away from the law, and is sufficient to show that Jesus had violated at least one law.

Since you'll probably want to know more about what was changed (though the fact that a change was made is sufficient to show a violation)... here you go.

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The Torah clearly allows for a woman who has been divorced to be remarried. The fact that the Torah goes out of its way to state that a divorced woman is forbidden to marry a Priest indicates that a divorced woman is permitted to marry a man who is not a Priest (i.e. any man who is not a descendant of Aaron).

And there is nowhere in the Torah any verse that states that adultery is the only valid reason for a man to divorce his wife.

And nowhere in the Torah does any verse state that a man who marries a divorced woman is committing adultery by doing so. In fact, the Torah clearly states: And when she has departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.



The Dietary Law:

The Torah makes it perfectly clear that there are animals that can defile a person if consumed, or even touched.

Leviticus 11:4
But these you shall not eat among those that bring up the cud and those that have a cloven hoof: the camel, because it brings up its cud, but does not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you.

Leviticus 11:5
And the hyrax, because it brings up its cud, but will not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you;

Leviticus 11:6
And the hare, because it brings up its cud, but does not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you;

Leviticus 11:7
And the pig, because it has a cloven hoof that is completely split, but will not regurgitate its cud; it is unclean for you.

Leviticus 11:8
You shall not eat of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.


Leviticus 11:26
Any animal that has a cloven hoof that is not completely split, and which does not bring up its cud, is unclean for you. Anyone who touches them shall become unclean.

Leviticus 11:27
And among all the animals that walk on four legs, any [animal] that walks on its paws is unclean for you. Anyone who touches their carcass will be unclean until evening.

Leviticus 11:40
And one who eats of its carcass shall immerse his garments, and he shall be unclean until evening. And one who carries its carcass shall immerse his garments, and he shall be unclean until evening.

Leviticus 11:41
And any creeping creature that creeps on the ground is an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

Leviticus 11:42
Any [creature] that goes on its belly, and any [creature] that walks on four [legs] to any [creature] that has many legs, among all creeping creatures that creep on the ground, you shall not eat, for they are an abomination.

Leviticus 11:43
You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping creature that creeps, and you shall not defile yourselves with them, that you should become unclean through them.

Leviticus 11:44
For I am the Lord your God, and you shall sanctify yourselves and be holy, because I am holy, and you shall not defile yourselves through any creeping creature that crawls on the ground.


Leviticus 11:46-47

This is the law regarding animals, birds, all living creatures that move in water and all creatures that creep on the ground, to distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.


Jesus begs to differ.


Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;



Another unholy change to the Torah, violating the command to neither add nor take away.


There you go. At least two instances of Jesus violating the law, with clear and abundant scriptural support.

[Jacob_Rising]

This though can only be accomplished if you are circumcised of heart. Since most people rely on the outward appearance of being right with G-d they are only fooling themselves. This is what Y'shua and his disciples stressed again and again as well as the prophets beginning with Moshe whom you just quoted.

Yirmiyahu 4:4. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord and remove the foreskins of your heart, O people of Judah and dwellers of Jerusalem, lest My anger go forth and burn with none to quench it because of the evil of your deeds.

Yirmiyahu 9:24. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will punish every circumcised one with his uncircumcision.
25. Egypt, Judah, Edom, the children of Ammon, Moab, and all those cast off to the corners, who dwell in the desert, for all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are of uncircumcised hearts.Why are you telling Shady about the past?

Yirmiyahu 31:31 ''Behold the days are coming,'' says the Lord,'' when I will make a New covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Yehudah--Not according to the covenant which I made to their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the Land of Egypt......But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their minds, and write it on THEIR HEARTS; And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Do you think this isn't talking about circumcizing their hearts?

Hasn't this allready happened?

Joel 4:20 But Judah shall be inhabited forever, and Jerusalem throughout the ages. Thus I will treat innocent their blood Which I have not treated innocent.

I wonder why we even think we have to convince the Jews of anything.

They are found innocent.

Romans'' The Messiah will come out of Zion and turn ungodliness from Jacob''

Dang the goodluck.

The Lord says that he will make them righeous for his namesake, because they are called by his name.

Who really knows the Lord?

The one's who practice and keep the law know the Lord.

Yes, every pot in Judah will be Holiness to the Lord.

These Jews look like their hearts are circumcized to me allready.

Is the law in their minds and their hearts?

Why do we try and change what is needed for the reconciliation of the world?

If what they do means salvation to the world, then what will their reward be but life from death?

I would just say to the Jews, '' Carry on dudes, ''

[Jacob_Rising]

Sure HE does; but HE also knows that violating any commandment for even one iota of a millisecond, disqualifies me from being able to "keep the law" perfectly. . .which is the ONLY standard that THE MOST HIGH and HOLY GOD accepts.

Keeping just the [specific] one would automatically guarantee me keeping all the rest. . .that one being, "Thou shalt love THE LORD thy GOD with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."; if a man's vertical relationship is Kosher, then all else just falls into place.


Naw; it just got fulfilled, and you almost quoted it above, but for whatever reason, you kinda stopped short with, "Do not think that I come to destroy the law or the prophets....Whoever therefore breaks one of the LEAST of these commandments, and Teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven." Let's see now, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17)" Now if JESUS CHRIST came "to fulfill. . .the law, or the prophets"; it must have been because...:think::think::think:

see my last statement.

Ditto.So since you think your dsiqualified, You should not even try?

:think::think::think: How in the world do you think the Law and prophets are fulfilled?

Do you have any idea how much is unfulfilled, I think the Jews can provide you with a pretty good list but that doesn't even matter because to say, '' Fulfilled'' and to mean it like it is done with is to directly contradict the same passage.

'' Whoever therefore breaks the Least of these laws and teaches men so shall be the least in the kingdom of Heaven''

Do you really believe that all we have to do is to love the Lord with all our hearts and minds and souls?

You can love a woman, or anything with all your heart but without actions, love means nothing.

Again 1st John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments{plural} he who says,'' I know him,'' And does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps HIS WORD, truly the love of God is perfected in him.....He who abides in HIM OUGHT HIMSELF ALSO TO WALK JUST AS HE WALKED''

Jesus only said that he kept the law and this IS HIS WALK, Is this scripture wrong?

Shouldn't we likewise walk as Jesus walked if we say he kept the law?

Keeping the law IS his WALK. Let us walk as he did.

1st John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits LAWLESSNESS, and sin is LAWLESSNESS.

Do you think this is talking about Roman Law or American Law?

Nope, It's the law of Moses.

John 5:2 By this we KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the Love of God, That we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Is the Law such a reproach to keep?

The law is more beautiful than anything that has ever been and it is the tree of Life.

People that keep the law don't go around moaning and groaning about keeping it, They keep it because they are in love with it.

There could be nothing more wonderful than to know the law and to practice the heritage of God because in doing so, you know God.

Which is it?

Should we walk as Jesus walked?

We are sure told so.

[NehemiahT]

I'm sure Harmonious will come back with a few more examples... but she's done for the night... so in the mean time, I'll offer one... one law that Jesus violated on two separate occasions.

Deuteronomy 13:1 – All that I command you, take care to do it; you shall not add to it, and you shall not diminish from it.


Despite the fact that Jesus is recorded as having said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

It is shown that he says one thing and does another.

The law regarding divorce:

Leviticus 21:7
They [the Priests] shall not take a wife who is a harlot, or defiled; nor shall they take a woman divorced from her husband; for he is holy to his God.

Numbers 30:10
But every vow of a widow, and of her who is divorced, with which they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.

Deuteronomy 24:1-2
When a man has taken a wife, and married her, and it comes to pass that she finds no favor in his eyes, because he has found some uncleanness in her; then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she has departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.


We learn from these verses a few different things.

Divorce is permitted.
Adultery is not the only grounds for divorce.
A divorced woman may remarry, and it is not considered adultery for anyone involved.


Along comes Jesus to declare:

Matthew 5:31-32
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The words I underlined indicate immediately, regardless of the content, that Jesus is in some way adding to or taking away from the Torah. This alone is a violation of the law not to add or to take away from the law, and is sufficient to show that Jesus had violated at least one law.

Since you'll probably want to know more about what was changed (though the fact that a change was made is sufficient to show a violation)... here you go.

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The Torah clearly allows for a woman who has been divorced to be remarried. The fact that the Torah goes out of its way to state that a divorced woman is forbidden to marry a Priest indicates that a divorced woman is permitted to marry a man who is not a Priest (i.e. any man who is not a descendant of Aaron).

And there is nowhere in the Torah any verse that states that adultery is the only valid reason for a man to divorce his wife.

And nowhere in the Torah does any verse state that a man who marries a divorced woman is committing adultery by doing so. In fact, the Torah clearly states: And when she has departed out of his house, she may go and be another man’s wife.Great points, but you're missing a little something, at least three points to be exact;

1) Prior to the Law of Moses, GOD gave another command, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Gen. 2:24)";

2) According to Scripture. . .and what you quoted, JESUS stated, "It hath been said...", kinda like, 'hearsay', right?

And 3, If #1 is how GOD originally intended it, then how, after having 'cleaved' to (known) his/her wife/husband, can he/she be joined to another woman/man. . .IN THE EYESIGHT of GOD. . .this side of the death of her/his, still living, spouse?

Ergo, the Scripture that you quoted, is just JESUS declaring that if the teachers/preachers/leaders of the day, are going to teach/preach/lead according to hearsay, here's a little something, more than fair to add to what you're teaching/preaching/governing. . .Adultery happens in the heart, long before it becomes an earthly done deal. . .and if you didn't divorce her/him after you discovered they weren't chaste and pure on your wedding night, and they're still alive, divorce isn't what you've made it out to be.

It is just as JESUS stated, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:8)".

As for the Dietary law that you mention, again, JESUS had it right on point, if you had quote HIM further, " (Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. . .But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. (Matthew 15:11,18)"

[Jacob_Rising]

THE RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST is FACT!!!No it isn't, I believe it but just because people have died for what they believed does not equate to fact.

Before Jesus there was Nimrod who was the first supposed Resurrected Messiah and builder of Babylon and many died in his name, seeing and believing that he too was resurrected.

Meh, well, The word Fact and your opinion doesn't do well in this forum.

It's my opinion, that your fact is an opinion, That's just my opinion.:eh:

I can understand that it's a fact to you, But I know plenty of people who would say that it's a fact that Jesus never even lived.

There has to be some kind of Leeway here in the forums, an understanding that we are all stating opinions because everyone has a different one don't they.

What is fact to you , may not be fact to anyone else.

I believe it's a fact that Jesus was resurrected just as you do, But trust me when I say, ''fact is the wrong word to be using if you want to get people's attention in the right way.''

If you show a bit more flexability, people will admire you for it, and they will be much more apt to listen to you.

[CID_0687]

I'm beginning to remember why I don't argue the Tanach with Jewish folks...they're always right...

Just like I'm always right about the New Testament. :mrgreen:

[Jacob_Rising]

Just like I'm always right about the New Testament. :mrgreen:That's funny, I was just saying the same thing about you yesterday.

[CID_0687]

That's funny, I was just saying the same thing about you yesterday.
:hug:

[Poisonshady313]

Great points, but you're missing a little something, at least three points to be exact;

1) Prior to the Law of Moses, GOD gave another command, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Gen. 2:24)"; God gave the Torah. When God mentioned the laws regarding divorce, He recognized that sometimes it just doesn't work out, because one might have picked the wrong one to be his or her spouse. I am not so arrogant that I would second guess God. If God says that divorce and remarriage are permissible... in light of the command He gave in Genesis... I'll take God's word for it that He knows better.

2) According to Scripture. . .and what you quoted, JESUS stated, "It hath been said...", kinda like, 'hearsay', right? That's pure sloppiness on your part. It hath been said... by God. How do we know? It was explicitly written in His Torah... in the verse I provided.

And 3, If #1 is how GOD originally intended it, then how, after having 'cleaved' to (known) his/her wife/husband, can he/she be joined to another woman/man. . .IN THE EYESIGHT of GOD. . .this side of the death of her/his, still living, spouse? God only knows. It is not for me to second guess God... it is for me to read His word and accept that divorce and remarriage are permissible, and not considered adultery.

Ergo, the Scripture that you quoted, is just JESUS declaring that if the teachers/preachers/leaders of the day, are going to teach/preach/lead according to hearsay, here's a little something, more than fair to add to what you're teaching/preaching/governing. . . Problem is, the teachers/preachers/leaders of the day were not teaching according to hearsay. They were teaching according to God's written word.

Adultery happens in the heart, long before it becomes an earthly done deal. . .and if you didn't divorce her/him after you discovered they weren't chaste and pure on your wedding night, and they're still alive, divorce isn't what you've made it out to be. This is more of that unholy addition to the law I was talking about. Adultery happens when adultery happens. This "adultery happens in the heart" mumbo jumbo is not consistent with the Torah. If you believe otherwise, I challenge you to find it within the first five books of the Bible... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

It is just as JESUS stated, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:8)".
Jesus was wrong. The very idea that Moses invented any of the law is a rejection of God. The Law... the Torah... in its entirety is from God.

This quote: "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives:" is added to the list of Jesus' violations of the law.


As for the Dietary law that you mention, again, JESUS had it right on point, if you had quote HIM further, " (Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. . .But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. (Matthew 15:11,18)"

That is completely irrelevant. The fact is, God outlined, quite repetitively, that there are things which you could eat that would defile you... and Jesus said otherwise. This represents an unholy change to the Torah... a violation of God's law.

God is right. Jesus is wrong.

Your objections to my post are without merit or justification.

[NehemiahT]

So since you think your dsiqualified, You should not even try?Don't think I'm "disqualified", I know this. . .according to THE WORD of GOD; ergo, I'll just rest (Sabbath) in the finished work of JESUS CHRIST. . ."my LORD and my GOD".

:think::think::think: How in the world do you think the Law and prophets are fulfilled?Through JESUS CHRIST, and HIM alone!!!:hug::hug::hug:

Do you have any idea how much is unfulfilled, I think the Jews can provide you with a pretty good list but that doesn't even matter because to say, '' Fulfilled'' and to mean it like it is done with is to directly contradict the same passage.Just as one of the Jews stated, ". . .my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God...(Romans 10:1-3)"

''Whoever therefore breaks the Least of these laws and teaches men so shall be the least in the kingdom of Heaven''Then, "the kingdom of Heaven", is full of "least", huh?

Do you really believe that all we have to do is to love the Lord with all our hearts and minds and souls?Either that. . .or be as GOOD as GOD. . .because ONLY GOD can Satisfy GOD.

You can love a woman, or anything with all your heart but without actions, love means nothing.Agreed. . .but regarding, "love", those kinds of "actions" don't come before the "love", correct?

Again 1st John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments{plural} he who says,'' I know him,'' And does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps HIS WORD, truly the love of God is perfected in him.....He who abides in HIM OUGHT HIMSELF ALSO TO WALK JUST AS HE WALKED''And just what was JESUS' Commandments??? Here's a clue, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37-40)"

Jesus only said that he kept the law and this IS HIS WALK, Is this scripture wrong?

Shouldn't we likewise walk as Jesus walked if we say he kept the law?[quote]Actually, we need only walk in HIM.

Keeping the law IS his WALK. Let us walk as he did.

[quote]1st John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits LAWLESSNESS, and sin is LAWLESSNESS.

Do you think this is talking about Roman Law or American Law?GOD'S Law.

[Jacob_Rising]

Then, "the kingdom of Heaven", is full of "least", huh?

Actually, we need only walk in HIM.

Rationalizations, that's all.

You put up a gerneralization, {Actually we need to walk in him?}

Be true to thine ownself.

Just how many scriptures did I give you?

You havn't touched but one of them and all you showed was a contradiction.

Just exactly what does, { We need to walk in him mean?}

All we gotta say is, '' Jesus' Huh?

Yup, that's about the norm.

It is a fact that the kingdom of heaven is filled with the least.

The name of this thread shows it.

The way, the Truth , and the life.

Mathew 7:13 '' Enter by the Narrow gate; for WIDE is the gate and BROAD is the WAY that leads to destruction, AND THERE ARE MANY WHO GO IN BY IT.

''Because Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way WHICH LEADS TO LIFE{Zoe LIFE},AND THERE ARE FEW WHO FIND IT.''

You should learn what the name of your thread means but that may be impossible if you don't seek the law because this Way, Truth and Life is concerning the law and the comings and goings of the Temple.

You should learn the names of these gates because they do have names, But the way is broad and allthough some type of salvation can be found in the way, it nevertheless leads to the outer court of Darkness and is filled with people who will not enter into life.

Please learn how to quote people.

[beaker]

I have to say I have enjoyed the many threads and reading the opinions of the different people of faith here on the board. I have learned a lot.


I have a few question for our Jewish brothers and sisters here:

I have seen statements that Jesus was wrong, that he broke the law, and would assume from those statements that in your beliefs he was not the Messiah. For those of us that follow the teachings of Jesus and call ourselves Christians, from a Jewish perspective what will be our ultimate fate? Are we wrong? Will we suffer damnation because of apostacy? Do we need to revert to the Law in order to be in God's graces?

I am confused. I understand your position on Jesus, and I respect that, but I am really curious from a Jewish standpoint where Christains stand in all of this.


Thanks

Beaker

[NehemiahT]

Rationalizations, that's all.

You put up a gerneralization, {Actually we need to walk in him?}

Be true to thine ownself."Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (Matthew 11:28-29)";

or how about the following (NOTE the "IN CHRIST"):

Act 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith IN CHRIST.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is IN CHRIST Jesus:
Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN CHRIST Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life IN CHRIST Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is IN CHRIST Jesus our Lord.
Rom 9:1 I say the truth IN CHRIST, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 12:5 So we, many, are one body IN CHRIST, and every one members one of another.
Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers IN CHRIST Jesus:
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were IN CHRIST before me.
Rom 16:9 Salute Urbane, our helper IN CHRIST, and Stachys my beloved.
Rom 16:10 Salute Apelles approved IN CHRIST. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' [household].
1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified IN CHRIST Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Cr 1:30 But of him are ye IN CHRIST Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes IN CHRIST.
1Cr 4:10 We [are] fools for Christ's sake, but ye [are] wise IN CHRIST; we [are] weak, but ye [are] strong; ye [are] honourable, but we [are] despised.
1Cr 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors IN CHRIST, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for IN CHRIST Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1Cr 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be IN CHRIST, as I teach every where in every church.
1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep IN CHRIST are perished.
1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope IN CHRIST, we are of all men most miserable.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so IN CHRIST shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have IN CHRIST Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Cr 16:24 My love [be] with you all IN CHRIST Jesus. Amen. [[[The first [epistle] to the Corinthians was written from Philippi by Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus and Timotheus.]]]
2Cr 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you IN CHRIST, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
2Cr 2:14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph IN CHRIST, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
2Cr 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we IN CHRIST.
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away IN CHRIST.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] IN CHRIST, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] IN CHRIST's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is IN CHRIST.
2Cr 12:2 I knew a man IN CHRIST above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Cr 12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God IN CHRIST: but [we do] all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.
Gal 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were IN CHRIST:
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have IN CHRIST Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God IN CHRIST, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith IN CHRIST Jesus.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one IN CHRIST Jesus.
Gal 6:15 For IN CHRIST Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful IN CHRIST Jesus:
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] IN CHRIST:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted IN CHRIST.
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought IN CHRIST, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] IN CHRIST Jesus:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created IN CHRIST Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:13 But now IN CHRIST Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise IN CHRIST by the gospel:
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed IN CHRIST Jesus our Lord:
Phl 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints IN CHRIST Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Phl 1:13 So that my bonds IN CHRIST are manifest in all the palace, and in all other [places];
Phl 2:1 If [there be] therefore any consolation IN CHRIST, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

Just how many scriptures did I give you?

You havn't touched but one of them and all you showed was a contradiction.

Just exactly what does, { We need to walk in him mean?}

All we gotta say is, '' Jesus' Huh?

Yup, that's about the norm.

It is a fact that the kingdom of heaven is filled with the least.

The name of this thread shows it.

The way, the Truth , and the life.

Mathew 7:13 '' Enter by the Narrow gate; for WIDE is the gate and BROAD is the WAY that leads to destruction, AND THERE ARE MANY WHO GO IN BY IT.

''Because Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way WHICH LEADS TO LIFE{Zoe LIFE},AND THERE ARE FEW WHO FIND IT.''

You should learn what the name of your thread means but that may be impossible if you don't seek the law because this Way, Truth and Life is concerning the law and the comings and goings of the Temple.

You should learn the names of these gates because they do have names, But the way is broad and allthough some type of salvation can be found in the way, it nevertheless leads to the outer court of Darkness and is filled with people who will not enter into life.

Please learn how to quote people.[/quote]

When did the Temple ever refer to itself as "[B]I AM"? You didn't even refer to it as such. As it is written, "But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this means, I will have mercy (something given. . .only to the guilty), and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. (Matthew 12:6-7)"

The "temple" was "a way (Prov. 14:12; 16:25)", "the Law of Moses", NOT "THE WAY"; The "temple" held "a truth (The oft quoted, out of context, John 8:31-32)", "the Law of Moses", NOT "THE TRUTH"; The "temple" contained "a life (John 10:10)", "the Law of Moses", but not "THE LIFE". . .and The "temple" was destroyed in A.D. 70. . .and all that it contained, so much so, that JESUS CHRIST IS Now the Only Jew, who can Legally, and beyond any doubt, trace HIS human lineage back to David, Abraham, and Adam.
And HE IS WHO this Thread is all about.

[NehemiahT]

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also IN CHRIST Jesus:
Phl 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice IN CHRIST Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God IN CHRIST Jesus.
Phl 4:21 Salute every saint IN CHRIST Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren IN CHRIST which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith IN CHRIST Jesus, and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect IN CHRIST Jesus:
Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith IN CHRIST.
1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are IN CHRIST Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead IN CHRIST shall rise first:
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God IN CHRIST Jesus concerning you.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is IN CHRIST Jesus.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth IN CHRIST, [and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is IN CHRIST Jesus.
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is IN CHRIST Jesus,
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us IN CHRIST Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is IN CHRIST Jesus.
2Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is IN CHRIST Jesus.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is IN CHRIST Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly IN CHRIST Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is IN CHRIST Jesus.
Phm 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you IN CHRIST Jesus.
Phm 1:8 Wherefore, though I might be much bold IN CHRIST to enjoin thee that which is convenient,
Phm 1:23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner IN CHRIST Jesus;
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation IN CHRIST.
1Pe 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace [be] with you all that are IN CHRIST Jesus. Amen.

[Poisonshady313]

I have to say I have enjoyed the many threads and reading the opinions of the different people of faith here on the board. I have learned a lot.


I have a few question for our Jewish brothers and sisters here:

I have seen statements that Jesus was wrong, that he broke the law, and would assume from those statements that in your beliefs he was not the Messiah. For those of us that follow the teachings of Jesus and call ourselves Christians, from a Jewish perspective what will be our ultimate fate? Are we wrong? Yes.

Will we suffer damnation because of apostacy? No. Do we need to revert to the Law in order to be in God's graces? Only Jews need to revert to the Law... non Jews have an eternal covenant with God that was established with Noah.

I recommend that you wikipedia the word "Noahidism" to get an idea of what I'm talking about regarding the covenant established with Noah.

I am confused. I understand your position on Jesus, and I respect that, but I am really curious from a Jewish standpoint where Christains stand in all of this.
I hope my answers have been helpful so far. If you want more clarification or elaboration... I'm sure someone will come along soon (i.e. nofear2, mimiheart, or Harmonious) to help out.

[Harmonious]

I have to say I have enjoyed the many threads and reading the opinions of the different people of faith here on the board. I have learned a lot.


I have a few question for our Jewish brothers and sisters here:

I have seen statements that Jesus was wrong, that he broke the law, and would assume from those statements that in your beliefs he was not the Messiah. For those of us that follow the teachings of Jesus and call ourselves Christians, from a Jewish perspective what will be our ultimate fate? If you truly subscribe to what you consider to be the teachings of Jesus, and you are good people, who work hard to love God and your fellow man, you will have a wonderful time in the World to Come.

God is more about the fact that you've done the right thing than you've believed the right thing. Believing the right thing is better, but as I said before, it isn't an "all or nothing" game. If you have lived correctly, you get merit for all that you have done well and right.

And it bears noting that non-Jews never had to follow the entirety of the Torah that Jews do. Live honestly and cleanly, and you are good.

Are we wrong? Yes. But there are worse things to be wrong about.

Will we suffer damnation because of apostacy? No.

Do we need to revert to the Law in order to be in God's graces?Torah law? Heavens no.

As I said before, if you live life as a good Christian, you are probably already satisfying most of the Seven Laws of Noah.

1. Don't worship idols. (Depending on how you think of Jesus, and different types of Christians have different ideas of what exactly he was, explains how this one might be violated.)

2. Don't curse God's name, or blaspheme. (Actively believing "None come to the Father but through me" might violate that.)

3. Don't murder. (You're probably good with that one.)

4. Don't steal or kidnap. (You're probably good with that one.)

5. Don't have illicit sexual relations. You know, adultery, incest, homosexual sex, bestiality, among other things. (I hope you're good with that one.)

6. Don't tear limbs from living animals. (Eat whatever animal you want. Just make sure it's dead first.)

7. Live by the laws of the land, as long as they promote the first 6. If the laws of the land tell you to violate the first 6, do the first 6 instead.

There are other things that people who consider themselves Sons of Noah do, but these are the most definitive things you are supposed to do. If you are doing most of them right, you will earn yourself a happy place in the World to Come.

I am confused. I understand your position on Jesus, and I respect that, but I am really curious from a Jewish standpoint where Christains stand in all of this. Torah Judaism is one of the few organized religions I know of where the "outgroup" is as acceptable to God as the "ingroup." However, the mission for each group is different.

Thanks

Beaker
My pleasure. :mrgreen:

[Harmonious]

I'm beginning to remember why I don't argue the Tanach with Jewish folks...they're always right...

Just like I'm always right about the New Testament. :mrgreen::hug:

[CID_0687]

:hug:
:hug:

Morning sweet lady.

[Harmonious]

This though can only be accomplished if you are circumcised of heart. Not necessarily. It is better to do the right thing for the wrong reason than to withhold from doing the right thing.

Let's say a person gives a significant amount of charity for the recognition he gets for it. While the acclaim isn't necessarily the best reason to give it, still the people he helps, or the institutions he helps are still helped. While it might have been better if the guy's reasoning were more altruistic, the fact that he's helped people is definitely a good thing.

Since most people rely on the outward appearance of being right with G-d they are only fooling themselves.And who is to say that is so?

I know that people who have argued this before have said that people THINK they are doing things for the right reasons, but they are only fooling themselves, and that they have ulterior motives.

There are only certain commandments that rely on motives. Most, however, require that you simply fulfill the commandment.

This is what Y'shua and his disciples stressed again and again as well as the prophets beginning with Moshe whom you just quoted.I know. And they were wrong.

Yirmiyahu 4:4. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord and remove the foreskins of your heart, O people of Judah and dwellers of Jerusalem, lest My anger go forth and burn with none to quench it because of the evil of your deeds.It is true that many people during that occasion seemed to be following the commandments, but they were actually breaking them where no one could see. That is quite different than "doing things for the wrong reasons."

Yirmiyahu 9:24. Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will punish every circumcised one with his uncircumcision.
25. Egypt, Judah, Edom, the children of Ammon, Moab, and all those cast off to the corners, who dwell in the desert, for all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are of uncircumcised hearts.
And remember that Yirmiyahu was not castigating all generations from then on and afterwards. He was specifically speaking to a generation that was sinning harshly with murder, idolatry, sexual perversion, and severe injustice to the poor, orphans, and widows.

And they did all of this while pretending that they were pious and holy. And it was THIS that God warned against. Not that people who were actively doing what they should have been doing didn't have appropriate thoughts as they did it.

[Harmonious]

:hug:

Morning sweet lady.
Good morning.

[NehemiahT]

1. Don't worship idols. (Depending on how you think of Jesus, and different types of Christians have different ideas of what exactly he was, explains how this one might be violated.)

That being your opinion, please now give us some Scriptural verification for "Judaism". . .seeing as to how it is never once mentioned in the entire Tanakh. . .not to mention being named after the Tribe of Israel, from which JESUS CHRIST, THE Man, descended.

BTW, The apostle Paul, died a martyr's death, rather than renounce JESUS CHRIST, and THE RESURRECTION; in your opinion, is/was he saved? And please support your answer with Scripture---The Tanakh is fine.

[beaker]

As I said before, if you live life as a good Christian, you are probably already satisfying most of the Seven Laws of Noah.

1. Don't worship idols. (Depending on how you think of Jesus, and different types of Christians have different ideas of what exactly he was, explains how this one might be violated.)

2. Don't curse God's name, or blaspheme. (Actively believing "None come to the Father but through me" might violate that.)

3. Don't murder. (You're probably good with that one.)

4. Don't steal or kidnap. (You're probably good with that one.)

5. Don't have illicit sexual relations. You know, adultery, incest, homosexual sex, bestiality, among other things. (I hope you're good with that one.)

6. Don't tear limbs from living animals. (Eat whatever animal you want. Just make sure it's dead first.)

7. Live by the laws of the land, as long as they promote the first 6. If the laws of the land tell you to violate the first 6, do the first 6 instead.

There are other things that people who consider themselves Sons of Noah do, but these are the most definitive things you are supposed to do. If you are doing most of them right, you will earn yourself a happy place in the World to Come.




Thanks you so much for the replies( you too Poisonlady). I was afraid I wouldn't get an answer because some would have thought I was trying to bait you, which is not the case.

One more question about the Seven Laws of Noah, can that be found in the Old Testement? I can't recall ever seeing it and I don't have my Bible with me.

Thanks

Beaker

[Poisonshady313]

Thanks you so much for the replies( you too Poisonlady).

That's PoisonShady. I am male.

I was afraid I wouldn't get an answer because some would have thought I was trying to bait you, which is not the case.

One more question about the Seven Laws of Noah, can that be found in the Old Testement? I can't recall ever seeing it and I don't have my Bible with me.

Thanks

Beaker

Take a look at this link from Noahide.org. It talks about the Noahide Laws Sources:

http://www.noahide.org/article.asp?Level=395&Parent=90

[CID_0687]

Thanks you so much for the replies( you too Poisonlady). I was afraid I wouldn't get an answer because some would have thought I was trying to bait you, which is not the case.

One more question about the Seven Laws of Noah, can that be found in the Old Testement? I can't recall ever seeing it and I don't have my Bible with me.

Thanks

Beaker

Bold mine. :lol:

That's actually PoisonShady, like Slim Shady...unless, dude look like a lady.

j/k Poison. :lol:

[Poisonshady313]

Bold mine. :lol:

That's actually PoisonShady, like Slim Shady...unless, dude look like a lady.

j/k Poison. :lol:

More Eminem, Less Aerosmith.

[NehemiahT]

One more question about the Seven Laws of Noah, can that be found in the Old Testement? I can't recall ever seeing it and I don't have my Bible with me.

Thanks

Beaker

:dance:ala Lt. Columbo!!!:hug:

[beaker]

That's PoisonShady. I am male.





My apologies. I guess I read too fast sometimes.:think:

[Jacob_Rising]

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also IN CHRIST Jesus:
Phl 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice IN CHRIST Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God IN CHRIST Jesus.
Phl 4:21 Salute every saint IN CHRIST Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren IN CHRIST which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith IN CHRIST Jesus, and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect IN CHRIST Jesus:
Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith IN CHRIST.
1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are IN CHRIST Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead IN CHRIST shall rise first:
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God IN CHRIST Jesus concerning you.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is IN CHRIST Jesus.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth IN CHRIST, [and] lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is IN CHRIST Jesus.
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is IN CHRIST Jesus,
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us IN CHRIST Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is IN CHRIST Jesus.
2Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is IN CHRIST Jesus.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is IN CHRIST Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly IN CHRIST Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is IN CHRIST Jesus.
Phm 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you IN CHRIST Jesus.
Phm 1:8 Wherefore, though I might be much bold IN CHRIST to enjoin thee that which is convenient,
Phm 1:23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner IN CHRIST Jesus;
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation IN CHRIST.
1Pe 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace [be] with you all that are IN CHRIST Jesus. Amen.
You listed two pages and you still have not touched one single scripture I gave you.

You can list scriptures all day long that seem to contradict the scriptures I gave you and so you have shown contradictions.

This is not adressing the scriptures I gave you, They do exists.

[Reeder]

Please allow me to just deal with THE RESURRECTION, for now.
More people (eyewitnesses) saw THE RESURRECTED JESUS CHRIST than all of the people, combined, who saw the assassinated Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley, and John Kennedy. At least 10 of HIS original 12 Disciples died martyr's deaths rather than to renounce THE RESURRECTION. . .so you have to ask yourself, "Who would die for a lie. . .especially when they knew it to be a lie?" Add to the aforementioned, the fact that no one has yet to uncover, and/nor discover, the remains of THE MOST Well Known CELEBRITY of the ages, it would be safe to state, as well as believe for certain, that THE RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST is FACT!!!

You didn't provide a single piece of PROOF. Everything you just said relies solely upon faith.

[Jacob_Rising]

That being your opinion, please now give us some Scriptural verification for "Judaism". . .seeing as to how it is never once mentioned in the entire Tanakh. . .not to mention being named after the Tribe of Israel, from which JESUS CHRIST, THE Man, descended.

BTW, The apostle Paul, died a martyr's death, rather than renounce JESUS CHRIST, and THE RESURRECTION; in your opinion, is/was he saved? And please support your answer with Scripture---The Tanakh is fine.I am a christian and I would tell you the same thing she said, so would Jesus, She doesn't understand the New Testament because she has barely ever picked up the thing to read it.

'' Good Teacher''

Jesus replied, '' Why do you call me good?, '' There is none good but the father''

I will give you scriptural verification for her Judaism and so will Jesus.

'' Don't do what they do, But do as they tell you to do''

We are Told By Jesus that they are in Authority and we are to do what the Cohen Ha Gadol tells us to do.

If you act as if Judaism is some strange thing like these Jews aren't suppose to follow, you are in fact denying your own faith because Judaism is the foundation of both Christianity and Islam.

Allthough these Jews didn't see Christianity as Judaism, Christianity did.

We remained a sect of Judaism called the Nazerites for over 100 years until the world so hated the Jews that they began to wholesale slaughter them and seing this happen, we Christians stopped doing anything that would link us to Judaism, thus saving our lives.

God bless them for dying and keeping the heritage of God.

7777

[Poisonshady313]

That being your opinion, please now give us some Scriptural verification for "Judaism". . .seeing as to how it is never once mentioned in the entire Tanakh. . .

The kingdom in which righteous kings of the children of Israel reigned, in the southern part of the land of Israel, in which Solomon built God's Holy Temple... is called Judah.

The Messiah we wait for will be a descendant of... Judah.

In the beginning of the book of Esther... Mordechai, a man from the tribe of Benjamin, is called "ish yehudi"... Jewish man.

[Harmonious]

Thanks you so much for the replies( you too Poisonlady). I was afraid I wouldn't get an answer because some would have thought I was trying to bait you, which is not the case.

One more question about the Seven Laws of Noah, can that be found in the Old Testement? I can't recall ever seeing it and I don't have my Bible with me.

Thanks

Beaker
You can find a hint to the Seven Noachide Laws in Genesis 9, but the most comprehensive explanation I can find is presented here.

************************************************** ***

In response to a frequently asked question about where in the Torah
we can find the Seven Noahide Laws, I have prepared this short list,
it is by no means exhaustive.

The Seven Noahide Laws are found in the book of Genesis, but they are
found in their transgression, not as specific commandments. In other words
when one of these laws was transgressed, comment is made in Genesis that
these were sins.

All references are from the Jewish text.

1. Idolatry Gen. 31:19-36 Rachel stole the images (idols) of her brother Laban.

Gen. 31:19 Laban had gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel stole the
teraphim1 that belonged to her father.

1. v. 19. And Rachel stole the teraphim that belonged to her father. The Teraphim were idols, and
Rachel took them to keep Laban from idol worship (Rashi). The Torah records this episode because
her intentions were noble. (Midrash) Ramban derives the word from the root rapha, weak
[see Exodus 5.17], alluding to the "weakness" of their prognostications. The Zohar relates the
word to 'trph' and 'tvrph', denoting obscenity. Many consider them to have been household gods,
supposed to be the protectors of the home, similar to the later Roman Penates, which were
consulted as oracle {R' Hirsch).



2. Blasphemy Gen. 3:1-4 The Serpent falsely accused G-d.

Gen. 3:1-4 Now the Serpent was cunning beyond an beast of the field that
HaShem G-d had made. He said to the woman, "Did, perhaps, G-d say:
"You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?"

The Serpent lied, and misrepresented what G-d really said. The serpent was false attributing to
G-d that He had denied man access to 'any tree', when in fact only 'one' tree was forbidden.
In fact man was permitted to eat of every tree except one.

Gen. 2:16 And HaShem commanded man saying, "Of every tree of the
garden you may freely eat: 17 but the Tree of Knowledge of Good
and Bad, you must not eat thereof; for on the day you eat of it, you shall
surely die."

From Path of the Righteous Gentile by Clorfene and Rogalsky.

. "The prohibition against blasphemy comes to teach us not to
speak evilly against G-d, nor to detract from His exaltedness
in any way by intentionally using words to lessen the reverence
and faith befitting Him."



3. Murder Gen. 4.8-10-16, Gen. 6. Gen. 9:6. 4. Theft Gen. 2:17 Gen. 3.

Gen. 4:8 Cain spoke with his brother Abel, And it happened when they were in
the field, that Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.

One of the reasons that the flood was sent was because of theft, violence, murder and
idolatry was common to all mankind. Gen. 6:11-12. The Commentary in the Stone
Edition Chumash says"

"Such is the progression of sin. It begins in private, when people still have
a sense of right and wrong. But once people develop the habbit of sinning,
they gradually lose their shame, and immoral behaviour becomes the
accepted - even required - norm. In Noah's time, the immoral sexual
conduct of the people extended to animals, as well, until they too
cohabited with other species."

Gen. 9:5-6 but of man, of every man for that of his brother I will demand the
soul of man. 6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of G-d He made man.


4. Theft See Gen. 3:6, Gen. 31:19

Gen. 3:6 And the woman perceived that the tree was good for eating
and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable
as a means to wisdom, and she took of its fruit and ate;

This was in direct disobedience of the command of G-d to not eat the fruit of that
particular tree.

Gen. 2:16 And HaShem commanded man saying, "Of every tree of the
garden you may freely eat: 17 but the Tree of Knowledge of Good
and Bad, you must not eat thereof; for on the day you eat of it, you shall
surely die."

Gen. 31:19 Laban had gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel stole the
teraphim1 that belonged to her father.

5. Forbidden Sexual relationships Gen. 20.3 Abimelech knew adultery was a sin.
homosexuality Gen. 19:5-7.

Gen 20:3 And G-d came to abimilech in a dream by night and said to him,
"Behold you are to die because of the woman you have taken; moreover
she is a married woman."
Gen. 19:5-6 And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who
came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may 'know' them. 6 Lot
went out to them to the entrance, and shut the door behind him. 7 And he
said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act wickedly.

The context clearly shows that the men of Sodom wished to have sexual relations with the
two men (angels), and Lot indicated that he knew that because he then showed how Sodom had
rubbed off on him, by offering the men his own virgin daughters.



6. Eating the Limb of a Living Animal Gen. 9.4-5.

Gen. 9:4-5 4 But flesh; with its soul its blood you shall not eat.
5 However, your blood which belongs to your souls I will demand, of
every beast will I demand it;



7. Establishing Courts of Justice Gen. 19:1-9. (The Gates of a city were where Judges
sat to convene Courts of Justice.) Ruth 4.1-11.

Gen. 19:1 The Two angels came to Sodom in the evening and Lot was
sitting at the gate of Sodom. ...... 9 And they said, "Stand back!"
Then they said, "This fellow came to sojourn and would act as a
Judge? Now we will treat you worse than them!"

Source (http://www.geocities.com/rachav/seven_laws_in_genesis.html)

[Harmonious]

Take a look at this link from Noahide.org. It talks about the Noahide Laws Sources:

http://www.noahide.org/article.asp?Level=395&Parent=90
I like your source.

[Harmonious]

:dance:ala Lt. Columbo!!!:hug:I like Columbo, too.

Interesting... We agree about something.

[captusa]

Thanks you so much for the replies( you too Poisonlady). I was afraid I wouldn't get an answer because some would have thought I was trying to bait you, which is not the case.

One more question about the Seven Laws of Noah, can that be found in the Old Testement? I can't recall ever seeing it and I don't have my Bible with me.

Thanks

Beaker

The question is often asked.
Usually respectfuylly like yours but occasionally to bait one into an arguement over whether Jesus waqs the Messiah.
As was pointed out by those with deeper knowledge of my ex-religion, Jews being the "chosen" people have more obligations than others.
One reason why Jews do not proselytize.
And the source of the oft told joke of requesting God to choose someone else.

[captusa]

Please allow me to just deal with THE RESURRECTION, for now.
More people (eyewitnesses) saw THE RESURRECTED JESUS CHRIST than all of the people, combined, who saw the assassinated Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley, and John Kennedy. At least 10 of HIS original 12 Disciples died martyr's deaths rather than to renounce THE RESURRECTION. . .so you have to ask yourself, "Who would die for a lie. . .especially when they knew it to be a lie?" Add to the aforementioned, the fact that no one has yet to uncover, and/nor discover, the remains of THE MOST Well Known CELEBRITY of the ages, it would be safe to state, as well as believe for certain, that THE RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST is FACT!!!

Only 3 people who allegedly saw the resurrection bothered to write about it.
One of the 3 claimed 500 people saw the risen Christ.
That type of evidence is referred to as hearsay.
And as far as the number of people dying for a cause as evidence of truth of the cause, how many Germans died in WWII to advance National Socialism (even if you only consider dedicate Waffen SS)?
How many Japanese died in banzai attacks, Kamikazi attacks and seppo-Koo(sp.) for the honor of their divine empire?

[beaker]

You can find a hint to the Seven Noachide Laws in Genesis 9, but the most comprehensive explanation I can find is presented here.

************************************************** ***

In response to a frequently asked question about where in the Torah
we can find the Seven Noahide Laws, I have prepared this short list,
it is by no means exhaustive.

The Seven Noahide Laws are found in the book of Genesis, but they are
found in their transgression, not as specific commandments. In other words
when one of these laws was transgressed, comment is made in Genesis that
these were sins.

All references are from the Jewish text.

1. Idolatry Gen. 31:19-36 Rachel stole the images (idols) of her brother Laban.

Gen. 31:19 Laban had gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel stole the
teraphim1 that belonged to her father.

1. v. 19. And Rachel stole the teraphim that belonged to her father. The Teraphim were idols, and
Rachel took them to keep Laban from idol worship (Rashi). The Torah records this episode because
her intentions were noble. (Midrash) Ramban derives the word from the root rapha, weak
[see Exodus 5.17], alluding to the "weakness" of their prognostications. The Zohar relates the
word to 'trph' and 'tvrph', denoting obscenity. Many consider them to have been household gods,
supposed to be the protectors of the home, similar to the later Roman Penates, which were
consulted as oracle {R' Hirsch).



2. Blasphemy Gen. 3:1-4 The Serpent falsely accused G-d.

Gen. 3:1-4 Now the Serpent was cunning beyond an beast of the field that
HaShem G-d had made. He said to the woman, "Did, perhaps, G-d say:
"You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?"

The Serpent lied, and misrepresented what G-d really said. The serpent was false attributing to
G-d that He had denied man access to 'any tree', when in fact only 'one' tree was forbidden.
In fact man was permitted to eat of every tree except one.

Gen. 2:16 And HaShem commanded man saying, "Of every tree of the
garden you may freely eat: 17 but the Tree of Knowledge of Good
and Bad, you must not eat thereof; for on the day you eat of it, you shall
surely die."

From Path of the Righteous Gentile by Clorfene and Rogalsky.

. "The prohibition against blasphemy comes to teach us not to
speak evilly against G-d, nor to detract from His exaltedness
in any way by intentionally using words to lessen the reverence
and faith befitting Him."



3. Murder Gen. 4.8-10-16, Gen. 6. Gen. 9:6. 4. Theft Gen. 2:17 Gen. 3.

Gen. 4:8 Cain spoke with his brother Abel, And it happened when they were in
the field, that Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.

One of the reasons that the flood was sent was because of theft, violence, murder and
idolatry was common to all mankind. Gen. 6:11-12. The Commentary in the Stone
Edition Chumash says"

"Such is the progression of sin. It begins in private, when people still have
a sense of right and wrong. But once people develop the habbit of sinning,
they gradually lose their shame, and immoral behaviour becomes the
accepted - even required - norm. In Noah's time, the immoral sexual
conduct of the people extended to animals, as well, until they too
cohabited with other species."

Gen. 9:5-6 but of man, of every man for that of his brother I will demand the
soul of man. 6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of G-d He made man.


4. Theft See Gen. 3:6, Gen. 31:19

Gen. 3:6 And the woman perceived that the tree was good for eating
and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable
as a means to wisdom, and she took of its fruit and ate;

This was in direct disobedience of the command of G-d to not eat the fruit of that
particular tree.

Gen. 2:16 And HaShem commanded man saying, "Of every tree of the
garden you may freely eat: 17 but the Tree of Knowledge of Good
and Bad, you must not eat thereof; for on the day you eat of it, you shall
surely die."

Gen. 31:19 Laban had gone to shear his sheep, and Rachel stole the
teraphim1 that belonged to her father.

5. Forbidden Sexual relationships Gen. 20.3 Abimelech knew adultery was a sin.
homosexuality Gen. 19:5-7.

Gen 20:3 And G-d came to abimilech in a dream by night and said to him,
"Behold you are to die because of the woman you have taken; moreover
she is a married woman."
Gen. 19:5-6 And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who
came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may 'know' them. 6 Lot
went out to them to the entrance, and shut the door behind him. 7 And he
said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act wickedly.

The context clearly shows that the men of Sodom wished to have sexual relations with the
two men (angels), and Lot indicated that he knew that because he then showed how Sodom had
rubbed off on him, by offering the men his own virgin daughters.



6. Eating the Limb of a Living Animal Gen. 9.4-5.

Gen. 9:4-5 4 But flesh; with its soul its blood you shall not eat.
5 However, your blood which belongs to your souls I will demand, of
every beast will I demand it;



7. Establishing Courts of Justice Gen. 19:1-9. (The Gates of a city were where Judges
sat to convene Courts of Justice.) Ruth 4.1-11.

Gen. 19:1 The Two angels came to Sodom in the evening and Lot was
sitting at the gate of Sodom. ...... 9 And they said, "Stand back!"
Then they said, "This fellow came to sojourn and would act as a
Judge? Now we will treat you worse than them!"

Source (http://www.geocities.com/rachav/seven_laws_in_genesis.html)


Cool. Thanks Harmonious. I see it now.

Seems you have to really read into it to get them though.

Don't you wish it had just been spelled out. "Hey people, here are my list of rules, obey them"

That would have been so much easier.

Questions: I noticed several times in what you posted as well as the website Poisonshady provided that when God is spelled out it is "G-d". Why is that?

Also, in these seven laws, is there anything written about what happens if you break one of these laws? Is there an avenue for forgiveness or if you commit one of these sins are you just done?

Thanks

Beaker

[Lie Sniper]

Cool. Thanks Harmonious. I see it now.

Seems you have to really read into it to get them though.

Don't you wish it had just been spelled out. "Hey people, here are my list of rules, obey them"

That would have been so much easier.

Questions: I noticed several times in what you posted as well as the website Poisonshady provided that when God is spelled out it is "G-d". Why is that?

Also, in these seven laws, is there anything written about what happens if you break one of these laws? Is there an avenue for forgiveness or if you commit one of these sins are you just done?

Thanks

Beaker

Our Jewish friends have somewhere in the neighborhood of 613 rules. Us Gentiles apparently get away with only having 7.

It's my understanding that writing G-d avoids the possibility of misusing God's name or someone else from using or quoting it in a less then honorable way.


See! I remember some of this stuff from when I asked the same questions. :dance:

[captusa]

Great points, but you're missing a little something, at least three points to be exact;

1) Prior to the Law of Moses, GOD gave another command, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Gen. 2:24)";

2) According to Scripture. . .and what you quoted, JESUS stated, "It hath been said...", kinda like, 'hearsay', right?

And 3, If #1 is how GOD originally intended it, then how, after having 'cleaved' to (known) his/her wife/husband, can he/she be joined to another woman/man. . .IN THE EYESIGHT of GOD. . .this side of the death of her/his, still living, spouse?

Ergo, the Scripture that you quoted, is just JESUS declaring that if the teachers/preachers/leaders of the day, are going to teach/preach/lead according to hearsay, here's a little something, more than fair to add to what you're teaching/preaching/governing. . .Adultery happens in the heart, long before it becomes an earthly done deal. . .and if you didn't divorce her/him after you discovered they weren't chaste and pure on your wedding night, and they're still alive, divorce isn't what you've made it out to be.

It is just as JESUS stated, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. (Matthew 19:8)".

As for the Dietary law that you mention, again, JESUS had it right on point, if you had quote HIM further, " (Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. . .But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. (Matthew 15:11,18)"

The point is that:

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. . .But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. [/I](Matthew 15:11,18)"
Is in direct contradiction to:

Leviticus 11:42
Any [creature] that goes on its belly, and any [creature] that walks on four [legs] to any [creature] that has many legs, among all creeping creatures that creep on the ground, you shall not eat, for they are an abomination.

Leviticus 11:43
You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping creature that creeps, and you shall not defile yourselves with them, that you should become unclean through them.

Leviticus 11:44
For I am the Lord your God, and you shall sanctify yourselves and be holy, because I am holy, and you shall not defile yourselves through any creeping creature that crawls on the ground.
Either you can be defiled by what you put in your mouth or you cannot!

[captusa]

Our Jewish friends have somewhere in the neighborhood of 613 rules. Us Gentiles apparently get away with only having 7.

...... :dance:

And that's why many of we chosen (not all) say "pick someone else".

[lwdc]

Our Jewish friends have somewhere in the neighborhood of 613 rules. Us Gentiles apparently get away with only having 7.There is an adage that says, "the less that can be expected of a person, the less that is asked of the person."

I find the term "Noachide laws" to be rather ugly. Not sayin' it's right or wrong... just my two cents, and nothing more.

[Mikko]

The emphasis on only scriptural support puts the opening post of this thread about as squarely in the category of circular reasoning as one can get. :)

[captusa]

The emphasis on only scriptural support puts the opening post of this thread about as squarely in the category of circular reasoning as one can get. :)

The discussion of scripture and its meanings is a valid topic since many people are effected by them.
The relation of scripture to reality is a totally different topic.

[Jacob_Rising]

You can find a hint to the Seven Noachide Laws in Genesis 9, but the most comprehensive explanation I can find is presented here.

************************************************** ***

Where are all the scriptures about a fool?

I feel like going to the proverbs and listing every single passage about what fool's say and following it with,'' Yup, that's what I wrote Harmonious''

I guess there is no excuse for it but if I had one, I was just loopy from an ambien my Mother gave me because I hadn't slept.

I wasn't even aware how strange ambien can make a person but then add a strange drug to an allready strange weird guy like me and you get ham on Rye with tunafish jelly.

Now you know why I wanted to take a vow of silence and quit talking, it would seem that everytime I open my mouth, You get Alec Baldwin saying,'' I am God'' '' Behold I am all knowing''

Dang the bad luck.

By the way, did you notice that I let Old Jr out of the bag for a special occasion?:evil:

[TaylorW65]

The emphasis on only scriptural support puts the opening post of this thread about as squarely in the category of circular reasoning as one can get. :)

The OP demonstrates another attempt to put God in a Box and duct tape the lid shut.

[natalie addict]

JESUS CHRIST stated, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE; no one comes to THE FATHER except through (via/by way of) ME (John 14:6). There is no other way to GOD, truth about GOD, and life outside GOD, than "through"/via JESUS CHRIST.

Let's talk Scripture. . .and Scripture ONLY; When JESUS went out into "the wilderness", in order to get back what our forefather Adam, voluntarily and freely, gave away, The Only Weapon that HE used was THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD, against the enemy of THE WORD of GOD.

JESUS CHRIST hung on a Cross, and DIED, for my monkey acting (which is as close as I'll ever be, to being descended from, and/or having a common ancestor with, a monkey) behind; and three (3) days later, HE RESURRECTED, having paid my sin debt, before THE MOST HOLY and HIGH GOD, in Full. And I can prove that, even to the most staunchest unbeliever's satisfaction, that this happened.

So then, let us discuss Scripture. . .because, personally, I'm done with all the petty arguments/debates/etc., started by people who don't believe GOD, let alone, claim to subscribe to no "religion", but yet find themselves attracted to a "religion" forum/thread, more so than any other.

"Listen to the hammering, and rejoice,
Listen to the hammering, and thank JESUS;
Listen to hammering, for HE'S taken everything,
that was against us, and nailed it to HIS Cross."

David, The King, shows us just how personal THE GOD, that some here don't believe in, was to him and should/would/could be to any one of us:

"THE LORD is my SHEPHERD;
I shall not want.
HE makes me to lie down in green pastures:
HE leads me beside the still waters.
HE restores my soul:
HE leads me in the paths of righteousness for HIS NAME's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil:
for THOU art with me;
THY rod and THY staff they comfort me.
THOU prepares a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
THOU anoints my head with oil;
my cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of THE LORD for ever."


Its a total waste of my time to try and prove to you that GOD IS, just as it is a waste of your time, to try and explain to me why you don't don't believe that HE IS; So then, Let's just talk Scripture!!! Anybody willing?:think::think::think:



I'll even get the ball to rolling, by stating, emphatically, Cain's wife, was not his sister. . .nor even a distant relative. . .and Adam (of "the Garden") wasn't the first human that GOD Created. And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine".




"Oh no", said the bowl of petunias, "not again".


Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that, we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.

[Harmonious]

Cool. Thanks Harmonious. I see it now.

Seems you have to really read into it to get them though.

Don't you wish it had just been spelled out. "Hey people, here are my list of rules, obey them"

That would have been so much easier.I imagine so. However, that would take out the whole need for human interaction. The lack of a list necessitated you asking a Jew what the story was. That type of learning is a good thing.

I don't know if that was God's reasoning, but it makes sense to me.

Questions: I noticed several times in what you posted as well as the website Poisonshady provided that when God is spelled out it is "G-d". Why is that?I like Lie Sniper's answer. :hug:

Also, in these seven laws, is there anything written about what happens if you break one of these laws?In the text of the OT? No. However, in a Torah, theological society, let's just say that it's better if you don't.

Is there an avenue for forgiveness or if you commit one of these sins are you just done?Always. Stop committing the sin, first of all. Second of all, it helps to confess the sin to God. (Not a human stand-in for God, but to God directly.) Feel regret for committing the sin. And then resolve not to do it again.

If the sin is particularly heinous in nature, forgiveness may not come in this world, but will happen in the World to Come. If it was particularly unforgivable, it may require a reincarnation to fix the problem. Only genocide and things of that nature get an eternal punishment.

I get the feeling that type of thing is not your speed, so you have nothing to worry about.

Thanks

Beaker
My pleasure! :mrgreen:

[Harmonious]

Where are all the scriptures about a fool?

I feel like going to the proverbs and listing every single passage about what fool's say and following it with,'' Yup, that's what I wrote Harmonious''

I guess there is no excuse for it but if I had one, I was just loopy from an ambien my Mother gave me because I hadn't slept.

I wasn't even aware how strange ambien can make a person but then add a strange drug to an allready strange weird guy like me and you get ham on Rye with tunafish jelly.

Now you know why I wanted to take a vow of silence and quit talking, it would seem that everytime I open my mouth, You get Alec Baldwin saying,'' I am God'' '' Behold I am all knowing''

Dang the bad luck.

By the way, did you notice that I let Old Jr out of the bag for a special occasion?:evil:

I love you, Jacob. You know I do. However, my only response to this post is HUH?

I know it was somehow supposed to be complimentary to me, but beyond that, I lost you.

[Harmonious]

"Oh no", said the bowl of petunias, "not again".

:))

[Harmonious]

There is an adage that says, "the less that can be expected of a person, the less that is asked of the person."

I find the term "Noachide laws" to be rather ugly. Not sayin' it's right or wrong... just my two cents, and nothing more.

Sorry to hear that. The Noachides I know are proud of who they are and what they believe. They are honored by the term. :think:

[Koushi Shinigami]

"oh no", said the bowl of petunias, "not again".

42. :)) :)) :)) :))

[Jacob_Rising]

JESUS CHRIST stated, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE; no one comes to THE FATHER except through (via/by way of) ME (John 14:6). There is no other way to GOD, truth about GOD, and life outside GOD, than "through"/via JESUS CHRIST.

Let's talk Scripture. . .and Scripture ONLY; When JESUS went out into "the wilderness", in order to get back what our forefather Adam, voluntarily and freely, gave away, The Only Weapon that HE used was THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD, against the enemy of THE WORD of GOD.

JESUS CHRIST hung on a Cross, and DIED, for my monkey acting (which is as close as I'll ever be, to being descended from, and/or having a common ancestor with, a monkey) behind; and three (3) days later, HE RESURRECTED, having paid my sin debt, before THE MOST HOLY and HIGH GOD, in Full. And I can prove that, even to the most staunchest unbeliever's satisfaction, that this happened.

So then, let us discuss Scripture. . .because, personally, I'm done with all the petty arguments/debates/etc., started by people who don't believe GOD, let alone, claim to subscribe to no "religion", but yet find themselves attracted to a "religion" forum/thread, more so than any other.

"Listen to the hammering, and rejoice,
Listen to the hammering, and thank JESUS;
Listen to hammering, for HE'S taken everything,
that was against us, and nailed it to HIS Cross."

David, The King, shows us just how personal THE GOD, that some here don't believe in, was to him and should/would/could be to any one of us:

"THE LORD is my SHEPHERD;
I shall not want.
HE makes me to lie down in green pastures:
HE leads me beside the still waters.
HE restores my soul:
HE leads me in the paths of righteousness for HIS NAME's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil:
for THOU art with me;
THY rod and THY staff they comfort me.
THOU prepares a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
THOU anoints my head with oil;
my cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of THE LORD for ever."

Its a total waste of my time to try and prove to you that GOD IS, just as it is a waste of your time, to try and explain to me why you don't don't believe that HE IS; So then, Let's just talk Scripture!!! Anybody willing?:think::think::think:

I'll even get the ball to rolling, by stating, emphatically, Cain's wife, was not his sister. . .nor even a distant relative. . .and Adam (of "the Garden") wasn't the first human that GOD Created. And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine".

Listen up dude, AND LISTEN WELL.

I don't think you have a clue who you are messing with man!!!!!!

Stand in the place where you are, Now look East, Think about direction wonder why you have it.

I don't think you realize the place in which you now find yourself in, and so, I feel it's my obligation to buy you some books and send you to school before you get hurt, I'm just going to make this one threat and if you don't come around, I'll have to resort to sending you painfull E-mails telling you how much I love you man.

I purposely came fighting with you because you remind me of a dude name Flavius{Old me}. When I first came here, I had the same kind of wonderfull passion like you have and I admire that.

So I thought I would give you the heads up about this place.

This is just a wonderful forum with wonderfull people from all different faiths and I havm't ever found a better one and believe me when I say, '' I have search hard for forums.''

It really suked to be me for the first few years because I was so argumentative and I just wanted extreme debate. It was more like an attack than a discussion and what happened is that it stuck with me and It still hangs over my head.

Luckily I was banned and I was given the chance by the very good understanding moderators to come back as Jacob_Rising and it was so nice because I became somebody else. These people didn't have those memories of me from being on the attack and I was able to give them another perspective of myself. Unfortunately, I keep changing and I've gone nearly insane but that's ok now.

It's ok because this is just not a Forum, it's a family room.

I can't find a way to express my gratitude and thankfullness for all the knowledge I've learned from the Catholics, and Mormons, and Jews, and Lds, Universalists, Pentacostals, ect. But of couse I taught them all they know anyway.:shhh:

Take my advise and try not to scroo the pooch like I did and continue to do at times.

Take a look good look at the conversation between me and you and see what we give.

We are such a Tight nit family that we would take up for each other no matter what our differences are. It sounds silly to say so, But this forum is about the only life I have, and these people are so forgiving and kind, and respectful that it may just change your life at times.

Even if you get really weird, they seem so understanding, Heck, you could even claim you are Elijah or somebody or do something crazy and they will forget after a time.:eh:

We even love the Athiests like Sketch, But then we really should be kind to the mentally retarded.:shifty:

We got the Hermano Rayguy Sunshine who really needs to lighten up because the dude is wound up like the string inside a golf ball and he is so serious that he may explode, But we will be here to pick dude up again when it happens. The guy just needs to get a sense of Humor.

Lie Sniper dude, what can I say about him? Meh, I don't know, can't figure dude out.

We Got the Meri Weather who really can change the weather at times, I think she just might be one of the two witnesses.

We Got Abe and his one good eye but it never shuts, I like this Abe dude so much that I have written a Love poem about him and it goes like this, '' You wish Abe!''

We Got the Sweetest Catholics Like Vir who will just surpize you sometimes just like God does, Just when you think she is through with you, she lasso's you back in and you feel like you have another chance.

The All Knowing Captusa which happens to be color blind I think, or maybe it's just me.
I believe O'll cap is a Jesuit Priest if I remember correctly.

Taylorw65 who is an expert on Star trek, having seen every episode of Generations, he prides himself in Knowing all the names and habits of every officer aboard the Star Trek Enterprize, But don't let him rope you into his Captain Picard religion.

We got Ldwc and Drs which I'm pretty sure are twins of the same mother, Their real names are Jim, and Jim.

Poison Shady and Harmonious which are wonderful Christian Jews:)) NO I didn't, Well I better not. Naa Shady and Harmonious are heros of Mine, They are not Christians, they are Observant Jews whom I have learned so much from.

We Got FireWatch and Constantine which I always get mixed up because they both scare me to death, I try and not be heard or seen when they are around.

Well, I could go on and on about the people here and how much they have helped me, and how much I love these people. So take my advise and take the slow train going West and you might find yourself in love with all these people like I have, and you just might see just the right color orange when the Sun goes down.

If you don't, I might just call the lightning down to wake you up? :eh:

You can seriously learn alot in this place, You wouldn't believe the experts we have here.

I can't find my Crayons.

[gpd®]

RF Post of the day^^^^^^

[Reeder]

RF Post of the day^^^^^^

Post of the year!! :)

[Jacob_Rising]

That was sweet of you guys to say so, Thanks.:hug:

[Semi-Sweet]

Excellent Joel. Thanks for not mentioning me and my Scientology. :hug:

[CID_0687]

Excellent Joel. Thanks for not mentioning me and my Scientology. :hug:
Or my Agnostic Pentecostalism.

[natalie addict]

42. :)) :)) :)) :))

Which, by the way, is the number of Fox Mulders's apartment. (just finished watching season 7's dvd's)

[And Can It Be]

JESUS CHRIST stated, "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE; no one comes to THE FATHER except through (via/by way of) ME (John 14:6). There is no other way to GOD, truth about GOD, and life outside GOD, than "through"/via JESUS CHRIST.

Let's talk Scripture. . .and Scripture ONLY; When JESUS went out into "the wilderness", in order to get back what our forefather Adam, voluntarily and freely, gave away, The Only Weapon that HE used was THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD, against the enemy of THE WORD of GOD.

JESUS CHRIST hung on a Cross, and DIED, for my monkey acting (which is as close as I'll ever be, to being descended from, and/or having a common ancestor with, a monkey) behind; and three (3) days later, HE RESURRECTED, having paid my sin debt, before THE MOST HOLY and HIGH GOD, in Full. And I can prove that, even to the most staunchest unbeliever's satisfaction, that this happened.

So then, let us discuss Scripture. . .because, personally, I'm done with all the petty arguments/debates/etc., started by people who don't believe GOD, let alone, claim to subscribe to no "religion", but yet find themselves attracted to a "religion" forum/thread, more so than any other.

"Listen to the hammering, and rejoice,
Listen to the hammering, and thank JESUS;
Listen to hammering, for HE'S taken everything,
that was against us, and nailed it to HIS Cross."

David, The King, shows us just how personal THE GOD, that some here don't believe in, was to him and should/would/could be to any one of us:

"THE LORD is my SHEPHERD;
I shall not want.
HE makes me to lie down in green pastures:
HE leads me beside the still waters.
HE restores my soul:
HE leads me in the paths of righteousness for HIS NAME's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil:
for THOU art with me;
THY rod and THY staff they comfort me.
THOU prepares a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
THOU anoints my head with oil;
my cup runs over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of THE LORD for ever."


Its a total waste of my time to try and prove to you that GOD IS, just as it is a waste of your time, to try and explain to me why you don't don't believe that HE IS; So then, Let's just talk Scripture!!! Anybody willing?:think::think::think:



I'll even get the ball to rolling, by stating, emphatically, Cain's wife, was not his sister. . .nor even a distant relative. . .and Adam (of "the Garden") wasn't the first human that GOD Created. And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine".




Let's talk Scripture. . .and Scripture ONLY; When JESUS went out into "the wilderness", in order to get back what our forefather Adam, voluntarily and freely, gave away, The Only Weapon that HE used was THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD, against the enemy of THE WORD of GOD.


I think you are reading WAY to much into the idea of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness. What Adam lost when he deliberately sinned was his innocence. This was the Fall of Man. As a result of the Fall of Man, God imputed Adam's sin to every human being born by natural generation. This is called "original sin."

Granted, Jesus proved that he was the true Israelite who lived by every word of God. He showed Himself faithful and capable of redeeming His people, but the reason He did this is because he had the Holy Spirit in full measure. He was truly God and truly man "inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, and inseparably" as it states in the Creed of Chalcedon.

I am wondering if you believe that Jesus is truly God and truly man because of the legalism that seems to pervade your posts. One of the earliest creedal statements in the Bible concerning the deity of Jesus is in Philippians 2:6-11:

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, and being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (NIV).

Jesus' existence prior to the Incarnation is mentioned in John 1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD [my emphasis]. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it....The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:1-5, 14 NIV).

As far as Cain marrying anyone but one of his sisters, who else was on earth for him to marry? Obviously Adam and Eve continued to produce children after Cain and Abel. Incestuous marriages were not outlawed at that time as they are now because the dangers of inbreeding were not present. If you believe the scripture, you are forced to believe that all early marriages were brother/sister or some other degree of consanguity that would now be outlawed. You want to discuss Scripture, but then throw out some unorthodox idea that there were other people on earth not descended from Adam and Eve. And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine".
You have the burden of proof on this one.

[Jacob_Rising]

I love you, Jacob. You know I do. However, my only response to this post is HUH?

I know it was somehow supposed to be complimentary to me, but beyond that, I lost you.I was talking about the private message I sent you and how embaraced I was the next day after I had sent it.

People are just not supposed to say things like that, even if they are fooled into believing it.

I can imagine how it sounded, unless for some reason, you didn't get that message and I am spared.''Why I was asking about precept22''

I tried to write you back but your mail was full so I wrote you here.

[And Can It Be]

If you truly subscribe to what you consider to be the teachings of Jesus, and you are good people, who work hard to love God and your fellow man, you will have a wonderful time in the World to Come.

God is more about the fact that you've done the right thing than you've believed the right thing. Believing the right thing is better, but as I said before, it isn't an "all or nothing" game. If you have lived correctly, you get merit for all that you have done well and right.

And it bears noting that non-Jews never had to follow the entirety of the Torah that Jews do. Live honestly and cleanly, and you are good.

Yes. But there are worse things to be wrong about.

No.

Torah law? Heavens no.

As I said before, if you live life as a good Christian, you are probably already satisfying most of the Seven Laws of Noah.

1. Don't worship idols. (Depending on how you think of Jesus, and different types of Christians have different ideas of what exactly he was, explains how this one might be violated.)

2. Don't curse God's name, or blaspheme. (Actively believing "None come to the Father but through me" might violate that.)

3. Don't murder. (You're probably good with that one.)

4. Don't steal or kidnap. (You're probably good with that one.)

5. Don't have illicit sexual relations. You know, adultery, incest, homosexual sex, bestiality, among other things. (I hope you're good with that one.)

6. Don't tear limbs from living animals. (Eat whatever animal you want. Just make sure it's dead first.)

7. Live by the laws of the land, as long as they promote the first 6. If the laws of the land tell you to violate the first 6, do the first 6 instead.

There are other things that people who consider themselves Sons of Noah do, but these are the most definitive things you are supposed to do. If you are doing most of them right, you will earn yourself a happy place in the World to Come.

Torah Judaism is one of the few organized religions I know of where the "outgroup" is as acceptable to God as the "ingroup." However, the mission for each group is different.


My pleasure. :mrgreen:

I believe that the Noachide Law, where there is one law for the native Israelite and another law for the Gentile who dwells among them, is the essence of discrimination. My belief is based on the teaching of God:

"One law shall be to him that is homeborn and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you" (Exodus 12:49 KJV).

[Poisonshady313]

I believe that the Noachide Law, where there is one law for the native Israelite and another law for the Gentile who dwells among them, is the essence of discrimination. My belief is based on the teaching of God:

"One law shall be to him that is homeborn and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you" (Exodus 12:49 KJV).

That's about proselytes... converts to Judaism... being treated no differently than one who was born of a Jewish mother.

"the stranger that sojourneth among you"

As for what you consider to be the "essence of discrimination".... you'll have to take it up with God, who saw fit to give different laws to different people.

[natalie addict]

:))

And don't even think about getting me started on Oolon Colluphid...and if you do you'll have to stand in a cardboard box and sing "Jerusalem" until I stop...

[Jacob_Rising]

I believe that the Noachide Law, where there is one law for the native Israelite and another law for the Gentile who dwells among them, is the essence of discrimination. It is in fact discrimination and Racial and the facts of history prove this.

I just heard a Jew say today,'' Lord, Can't I just be not chosen for a while''

I have heard other Jews say,'' Chosen for what? To DIE!''

That's how the Jews are disciminated against, to follow what they follow leads to death and Genocide because the nations try and kill them.

So it's not Gentiles who are disciminated against.

Having said that, I think we should all go out and get skull caps, by us some black hats, follow the sacred Holy days so the devil don't know who is who anymore.

Maybe we could save a few of them, '' Is there still some left of their house?, I swear I remember them still, Let them eat at the Kings Table''

[Abe]

Listen up dude, AND LISTEN WELL.

I don't think you have a clue who you are messing with man!!!!!!

Stand in the place where you are, Now look East, Think about direction wonder why you have it.

I don't think you realize the place in which you now find yourself in, and so, I feel it's my obligation to buy you some books and send you to school before you get hurt, I'm just going to make this one threat and if you don't come around, I'll have to resort to sending you painfull E-mails telling you how much I love you man.

I purposely came fighting with you because you remind me of a dude name Flavius{Old me}. When I first came here, I had the same kind of wonderfull passion like you have and I admire that.

So I thought I would give you the heads up about this place.

This is just a wonderful forum with wonderfull people from all different faiths and I havm't ever found a better one and believe me when I say, '' I have search hard for forums.''

It really suked to be me for the first few years because I was so argumentative and I just wanted extreme debate. It was more like an attack than a discussion and what happened is that it stuck with me and It still hangs over my head.

Luckily I was banned and I was given the chance by the very good understanding moderators to come back as Jacob_Rising and it was so nice because I became somebody else. These people didn't have those memories of me from being on the attack and I was able to give them another perspective of myself. Unfortunately, I keep changing and I've gone nearly insane but that's ok now.

It's ok because this is just not a Forum, it's a family room.

I can't find a way to express my gratitude and thankfullness for all the knowledge I've learned from the Catholics, and Mormons, and Jews, and Lds, Universalists, Pentacostals, ect. But of couse I taught them all they know anyway.:shhh:

Take my advise and try not to scroo the pooch like I did and continue to do at times.

Take a look good look at the conversation between me and you and see what we give.

We are such a Tight nit family that we would take up for each other no matter what our differences are. It sounds silly to say so, But this forum is about the only life I have, and these people are so forgiving and kind, and respectful that it may just change your life at times.

Even if you get really weird, they seem so understanding, Heck, you could even claim you are Elijah or somebody or do something crazy and they will forget after a time.:eh:

We even love the Athiests like Sketch, But then we really should be kind to the mentally retarded.:shifty:

We got the Hermano Rayguy Sunshine who really needs to lighten up because the dude is wound up like the string inside a golf ball and he is so serious that he may explode, But we will be here to pick dude up again when it happens. The guy just needs to get a sense of Humor.

Lie Sniper dude, what can I say about him? Meh, I don't know, can't figure dude out.

We Got the Meri Weather who really can change the weather at times, I think she just might be one of the two witnesses.

We Got Abe and his one good eye but it never shuts, I like this Abe dude so much that I have written a Love poem about him and it goes like this, '' You wish Abe!''

We Got the Sweetest Catholics Like Vir who will just surpize you sometimes just like God does, Just when you think she is through with you, she lasso's you back in and you feel like you have another chance.

The All Knowing Captusa which happens to be color blind I think, or maybe it's just me.
I believe O'll cap is a Jesuit Priest if I remember correctly.

Taylorw65 who is an expert on Star trek, having seen every episode of Generations, he prides himself in Knowing all the names and habits of every officer aboard the Star Trek Enterprize, But don't let him rope you into his Captain Picard religion.

We got Ldwc and Drs which I'm pretty sure are twins of the same mother, Their real names are Jim, and Jim.

Poison Shady and Harmonious which are wonderful Christian Jews:)) NO I didn't, Well I better not. Naa Shady and Harmonious are heros of Mine, They are not Christians, they are Observant Jews whom I have learned so much from.

We Got FireWatch and Constantine which I always get mixed up because they both scare me to death, I try and not be heard or seen when they are around.

Well, I could go on and on about the people here and how much they have helped me, and how much I love these people. So take my advise and take the slow train going West and you might find yourself in love with all these people like I have, and you just might see just the right color orange when the Sun goes down.

If you don't, I might just call the lightning down to wake you up? :eh:

You can seriously learn alot in this place, You wouldn't believe the experts we have here.

I can't find my Crayons.:clap::clap:

If the nice Catholic lady picks this as the Post of the Decade, I'll consider buying a rosary...

[Abe]

I just heard a Jew say today,'' Lord, Can't I just be not chosen for a while''

Quote accurately. What I said was, "Lord, could you please just choose someone else for a few minutes so I can take a break?". :)

[Marquus]

Not necessarily. It is better to do the right thing for the wrong reason than to withhold from doing the right thing.

Let's say a person gives a significant amount of charity for the recognition he gets for it. While the acclaim isn't necessarily the best reason to give it, still the people he helps, or the institutions he helps are still helped. While it might have been better if the guy's reasoning were more altruistic, the fact that he's helped people is definitely a good thing.

And who is to say that is so?

I know that people who have argued this before have said that people THINK they are doing things for the right reasons, but they are only fooling themselves, and that they have ulterior motives.

There are only certain commandments that rely on motives. Most, however, require that you simply fulfill the commandment.

I know. And they were wrong.

It is true that many people during that occasion seemed to be following the commandments, but they were actually breaking them where no one could see. That is quite different than "doing things for the wrong reasons."


And remember that Yirmiyahu was not castigating all generations from then on and afterwards. He was specifically speaking to a generation that was sinning harshly with murder, idolatry, sexual perversion, and severe injustice to the poor, orphans, and widows.

And they did all of this while pretending that they were pious and holy. And it was THIS that God warned against. Not that people who were actively doing what they should have been doing didn't have appropriate thoughts as they did it.

Devarim 10:14. Behold, to the Lord, your God, belong the heavens and the heavens of the heavens, the earth, and all that is on it. יד. הֵן לַי־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ הַשָּׁמַיִם וּשְׁמֵי הַשָּׁמָיִם הָאָרֶץ וְכָל אֲשֶׁר בָּהּ:
15. Only your forefathers the Lord desired, to love them, and He chose their seed after them you, out of all peoples, as it is this day. טו. רַק בַּאֲבֹתֶיךָ חָשַׁק יְ־הֹוָ־ה לְאַהֲבָה אוֹתָם וַיִּבְחַר בְּזַרְעָם אַחֲרֵיהֶם בָּכֶם מִכָּל הָעַמִּים כַּיּוֹם הַזֶּה:
16. You shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, therefore, and be no more stiffnecked. טז. וּמַלְתֶּם אֵת עָרְלַת לְבַבְכֶם וְעָרְפְּכֶם

How does one circumcise the foreskin of their heart?

Devarim 30:1. And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you, א. וְהָיָה כִי יָבֹאוּ עָלֶיךָ כָּל הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה הַבְּרָכָה וְהַקְּלָלָה אֲשֶׁר נָתַתִּי לְפָנֶיךָ וַהֲשֵׁבֹתָ אֶל לְבָבֶךָ בְּכָל הַגּוֹיִם אֲשֶׁר הִדִּיחֲךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ שָׁמָּה:
2. and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children, ב. וְשַׁבְתָּ עַד יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ וְשָׁמַעְתָּ בְקֹלוֹ כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוְּךָ הַיּוֹם אַתָּה וּבָנֶיךָ בְּכָל לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל נַפְשֶׁךָ:
3. then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you. ג. וְשָׁב יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶת שְׁבוּתְךָ וְרִחֲמֶךָ וְשָׁב וְקִבֶּצְךָ מִכָּל הָעַמִּים אֲשֶׁר הֱפִיצְךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ שָׁמָּה:
4. Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there. ד. אִם יִהְיֶה נִדַּחֲךָ בִּקְצֵה הַשָּׁמָיִם מִשָּׁם יְקַבֶּצְךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ וּמִשָּׁם יִקָּחֶךָ:
5. And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers. ה. וֶהֱבִיאֲךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶל הָאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר יָרְשׁוּ אֲבֹתֶיךָ וִירִשְׁתָּהּ וְהֵיטִבְךָ וְהִרְבְּךָ מֵאֲבֹתֶיךָ:
6. And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life. ו. וּמָל יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶת לְבָבְךָ וְאֶת לְבַב זַרְעֶךָ לְאַהֲבָה אֶת יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּכָל לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל נַפְשְׁךָ לְמַעַן חַיֶּיךָ:

Why does G-d say that He will circumcise the heart? And why is "so that you may" in brackets?

We do not see as G-d sees.

Shmuel I 16:7. And the Lord said to Samuel, "Look not upon his appearance, or the height of his stature, for I have rejected him, for it is not as man sees, (what is visible) to the eyes, while the Lord sees into the heart."

Rashi:
for it is not as man sees: Even though you called yourself ‘seer,’ for you said to Saul, “I am the seer,” (supra 9:19), here I inform you that you do not see.

All scriptures from http://chabad.org

[Marquus]

Only 3 people who allegedly saw the resurrection bothered to write about it.
One of the 3 claimed 500 people saw the risen Christ.
That type of evidence is referred to as hearsay.
And as far as the number of people dying for a cause as evidence of truth of the cause, how many Germans died in WWII to advance National Socialism (even if you only consider dedicate Waffen SS)?
How many Japanese died in banzai attacks, Kamikazi attacks and seppo-Koo(sp.) for the honor of their divine empire?

What you fail to see IMHO is the Germans who died for Hitler "believed in Hitler" the three who died for Christ "believed He rose from among the corpses." Being eyewitnesses they proclaimed Him alive and willingly died for Him.

No one including the Germans or Kamakazi pilots died for a lie knowing it to be a lie. That would then make them fools.

So if the disciples died from spreading a lie that they knew was a lie that they had seen Y'shua alive after his crucifixion, then.....well, you be the judge.

[NehemiahT]

Originally Posted by NehemiahT http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=60374211#post60374211)
THE RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST is FACT!!!
No it isn't, I believe it but just because people have died for what they believed does not equate to fact.They believed it to be so because they had been eyewitnesses to THE RESURRECTED JESUS CHRIST.

Paul, who couldn't have, humanly possibly, known that his letter writings, to Churches that he had established, would become a part of ALL acceptable SCRIPTURE, stated, just for doubters, ". . .After that, HE was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.(1Cor. 15:6)"; did you happen to notice Paul's implication to any who may not have believed what he was writing, ". . .of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep..."???:think:

Before Jesus there was Nimrod who was the first supposed Resurrected Messiah and builder of Babylon and many died in his name, seeing and believing that he too was resurrected.Your word, "supposed", negates the point that you're attempting to make here. It was also "supposed" that this same "Nimrod" married his, biological, Mother, and fathered children by her.
I can understand that it's a fact to you, But I know plenty of people who would say that it's a fact that Jesus never even lived.Then we'd have to negate/disregard all of History, the way our years are formatted (B.C./A.D.), Christmas, Easter (even with "da bunny"), etc., huh?

What is fact to you , may not be fact to anyone else.I (the "you" of whom you reference) have absolutely nothing whatsoever to lose if, by some slim chance, I'm wrong; but on the other hand, if I'm right with my "fact", then your "anyone else" will have lost everything. . .for all of the rest of Eternity.

And they may just look at you, prior, in their judgment, and say, "Joel, why couldn't you have been as absolute as this Nehemiah guy. . .that you chose to play "devil's advocate" against, instead of telling us THE TRUTH. . .regardless???:think: And remember, Joel, they'll have all the rest of Eternity to consider that. . .with it not being able to lessen their FOREVER damnation by the slightest of the tiniest bit of an iota.

[qutoe]I believe it's a fact that Jesus was resurrected just as you do, But trust me when I say, ''fact is the wrong word to be using if you want to get people's attention in the right way.''[/quote]I operate according to what THE STANDARD that "our" ABBA IS. . .and not according to what is PC.

Just as an aside, it is only now that some of my fellow Blacks are beginning to see and/or understand why I was, and still am, anti-Barack Obama.

If you show a bit more flexability, people will admire you for it, and they will be much more apt to listen to you.Okay; I'll show as much "flexibility" as my LORD and my GOD showed. Deal???

JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD;

THE ONLY TRUTH of GOD;

and THE ONLY LIFE that GOD has to offer us!!!


Flexible enough for you? Do you not know that the ONLY time that THE TRUTH hurts, is when you r-e-j-e-c-t it???:think::think::think:

Think about it Joel, if there's another way to GOD, than through JESUS CHRIST, then who is it that's calling the shots to ETERNAL UTOPIA? Would not THE GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, be nothing more than a chump god, were HE to allow us to come to HIM any and every way that we can come up with. . .especially when History shows us just how messed up we can take PERFECTION, and mess it up???:think::think::think:

[NehemiahT]

Let's talk Scripture. . .and Scripture ONLY; When JESUS went out into "the wilderness", in order to get back what our forefather Adam, voluntarily and freely, gave away, The Only Weapon that HE used was THE WRITTEN WORD of GOD, against the enemy of THE WORD of GOD.


I think you are reading WAY to much into the idea of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness. What Adam lost when he deliberately sinned was his innocence. This was the Fall of Man. As a result of the Fall of Man, God imputed Adam's sin to every human being born by natural generation. This is called "original sin."Interesting that you'd claim that (without any Scripture to back up your claim), especially after GOD, his CREATOR, had told him, that his disobedience would bring about his death. . .and mentions nothing whatsoever about "his innocence". . .and you accuse me of "reading WAY to much into the idea of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness"???

Granted, Jesus proved that he was the true Israelite who lived by every word of God. He showed Himself faithful and capable of redeeming His people, but the reason He did this is because he had the Holy Spirit in full measure. He was truly God and truly man "inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, and inseparably" as it states in the Creed of Chalcedon.GOD BLESS you, for that most awesome statement of Truth: "Granted, Jesus proved that he was the true Israelite who lived by every word of God. He showed Himself faithful and capable of redeeming His people, but the reason He did this is because he had the Holy Spirit in full measure. He was truly God and truly man 'inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, and inseparably'"

I am wondering if you believe that Jesus is truly God and truly man because of the legalism that seems to pervade your posts.JESUS CHRIST is as much GOD as GOD IS GOD. HE had to be GOD, because ONLY GOD can satisfy GOD; HE had to be man, because man was messed up. . .Kinda like the KINSMAN/REDEEMER in the book of Ruth, huh???
One of the earliest creedal statements in the Bible concerning the deity of Jesus is in Philippians 2:6-11: "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, and being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (NIV).Just as Abe dislikes the KJV, so also, I dislike the NIV. Here's why. . .and please compare the two (your Scriptural reference from the two versions), "WHO, being in THE FORM of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD: But made HIMSELF of no reputation, and took upon HIM THE FORM of a Servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, HE humbled HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore GOD also hath highly exalted HIM, and given HIM a NAME which is above every name: That at THE NAME of JESUS every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to THE GLORY of GOD THE FATHER."

JESUS CHRIST THE Man, IS/became what Adam, and all of us, could have become. . .if Adam had just obeyed his CREATOR GOD.

Jesus' existence prior to the Incarnation is mentioned in John 1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD [my emphasis]. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without hWho, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: im nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it....The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only who came from the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:1-5, 14 NIV).Okay.

As far as Cain marrying anyone but one of his sisters, who else was on earth for him to marry? Obviously Adam and Eve continued to produce children after Cain and Abel. Incestuous marriages were not outlawed at that time as they are now because the dangers of inbreeding were not present. If you believe the scripture, you are forced to believe that all early marriages were brother/sister or some other degree of consanguity that would now be outlawed. You want to discuss Scripture, but then throw out some unorthodox idea that there were other people on earth not descended from Adam and Eve. And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine".
You have the burden of proof on this one.The Scripture is there. . .have you seen it? You disagree with me, and tell me, "And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine"", but you do everything but that which you've agree with me that is to be done. . .so that I'll discuss/debate you regarding this matter.


First Question: Where is the Scripture proof that Cain married his sister, or any other relative???:think::think::think:

Second Question: Where is the Scripture proofthat Genesis 2 is a retelling/summarizing of Genesis 1. . .and not just a continuation of Genesis 1???:think::think::think:

Third Question: Where is the Scripture proofthat GOD had no problem with the son marrying his sister. . .especially when they both are the children of the same Father and Mother???:think::think::think:

[Jacob_Rising]

And they may just look at you, prior, in their judgment, and say, "Joel, why couldn't you have been as absolute as this Nehemiah guy. . .that you chose to play "devil's advocate" against, instead of telling us THE TRUTH. . .regardless???:think: And remember, Joel, they'll have all the rest of Eternity to consider that. . .with it not being able to lessen their FOREVER damnation by the slightest of the tiniest bit of an iota.



Flexible enough for you? Do you not know that the ONLY time that THE TRUTH hurts, is when you r-e-j-e-c-t it???:think::think::think:

Think about it Joel, if there's another way to GOD, than through JESUS CHRIST, then who is it that's calling the shots to ETERNAL UTOPIA? Would not THE GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I really don't lie, and I never compromise my belief.

I only talked about changing your word, ''fact'' to using the word,'' Opinion'' because if you want to witness, this is the way to go. It's much more respectful and like I said, people will admire you for it and be much more apt to listen to you, because they can see that you really care about their feelings.

Telling people to believe in Jesus or suffer eternal damnation does one thing and one thing only, It pushes them farther away from hearing anything you say.

I suppose we will discuss Jews because Athiests would lagh at anything we say about an afterlife.

When I first came here over a decade ago, I told everyone that I only came to speak to Christians and this speaking was in the form of Attacking Catholics, Christmas, easter, Valentine's day and any Holy day that is not biblical in my eyes.

I didn't feel a need to witness to Jews and I still don't because I simply believe all the some 200 scriptures about God's promises to them, if not more.

I cannot live with contradiction in my belief and if you show me one, I'll work on it, but I honestly believe what the Old Testament says about Jews and what the New testament says about them.

If the New testament is correct, then witnessing to Jews is futile, and so I don't waste my time on doing something that doesn't need to be done.

They have an everlasting covenant in that it can only be broken if the Sun and moon both fall from the sky.

They are unlike any other people in that God does see them as innocent as far as I can tell.
If it's true that God put the law in their hearts and minds, then they live just as we do, They have to live and be judged in how they treat their neighbor, whether they feed the hungry and so on. What has God always required of them but to do Justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with their God?

Their salvation doesn't count on me in the least and it doesn't count on you or any Christian if I am to actually to believe God, and if God is a Liar, then I'm just spininng my whells anyway because there would be no God.

The promises spoken to the Jews are so many that it cannot be denied, But I only need to see one of his promises.

He says that he will never give them up, never, He says the Moon and Sun would fall from the sky before he gave them to damnation and he says he will call them innocent, He says he will turn ungodliness from them for his namesake. I could easily list 50 promises to them like this, so is God a liar or not?

If he has lied to them and revoked his promises then why would I have any hope in a promise he gave to me?

You have the truth in your own post,'' The God of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob'' Because that is God's name and they are his people.

But let's just say that I really should witness to them.

There is only one way to do that Nehamiah, and that way is to become everthing to everyman, meaning that I must first understand how they believe just as Paul himself learned how the Pagans believed.

Paul didn't go to the worshippers of Dian and say,'' Believe in Jesus or go to hell''

He went to them and told them that their worship of Diana was a tutor to them, that everything they believed was to bring them to the truth. He learned how they believed and saw the unknown God in their own design and pointed God out to them from their own faith.

But this way of witnessing only works on the Non Jew, It can't possibly work on the Jew, It's literaly impossible.

If you really believed they were headed for hell, and you were really sincere about reaching them, then I can tell you what to do but it comes with consequenses, because it wont be you teaching them the truth, it will be them teaching you the truth.

If you were really sincere and had a heart to reach out to them then you would walk very lightly around them and study everyday for over a decade trying to learn what they believe but in doing so, It changes what you believe.

I can tell you right now that you may think you know how they believe just like I thought I knew, and how most Christians just think they know but Don't.

We as Christians couldn't possibly know because we are not raised in what they are raised in and that's a shame because what they know, Is God.

We as Christians think that they don't know who the Messiah is but if we say Jesus is the Passover and the Pentacost, well then, They know the Messiah much more than we do because they are the keepers of such days and they know everything about these days that we do not.

And if the Messiah is Passover and Pentacost which is the spring Harvest and the Corn Harvest, well then, The Messiah is also the fall harvest, the days of awe and the Sukkot, and the Shimni Etzeret and the Simchat Torah, ect.

We say that the Jews didn't know the days of their visitation because they didn't know Jesus would come on both Passover and Pentacost but they know these days much better than we do because we don't even get the days right.

3 times a year all Israel are demanded to be present in Jerusalem and it's because these are the days of Visitation in my eyes, It is Pesach, Shavuot, and Sukkot.

Most Christians can give a simple plan of Passover and Pentacost but most still lack so much information about these days that it's astonishing. We really should know more.

But if these days really are about The Messiah then Sukkot is also the Messiah and who knows Sukkot but the Jews? So who really knows the Messiah, us or them?

If the days of Awe are so Holy that they are called the days of Awe, who will teach me about them? If the Yom Kippor is the only one time a year that the Cohen Ha Gadol enters into the Holy of Holies, how will I learn? They hold the Oracles of God and without them, there is no understanding of the Messiah, IF in fact these days are about the Messiah.

Rosh Hashannah, The Season of Teshuvah IS The last trump, The Opening of the gates, The wedding ceremony,Yom Hakedesh, the hidden day, Yom teruah the awakening blast, Yom hadin the day of Judgment, Ha Melech The coronation of the Messiah, Yom Hazikkaron and the resurrection of the dead, But where did I learn these things?

Sukkot is the season of our Joy, The festival of ingathering, The festival of nations, the festival of dedication,The festival of lights and it's the third day all Israel Must be in Jerusalem.

Jesus was Born on Sukkot in a Sukkah.

3 processions of priests go out in Joy and thanksgiving to collect what is required. One goes to gather the water of life from the pool of Shiloam, One gathers the willow branches and they are heard by the wind which pases through them, One gathers the wine and all culminate upon the alter of sacrifice where the willows make a Sukkah{Covering}. The water and the wine are poured and there are two bowls with holes in the bottom where the water and wine flow out.

It is the Most joyous occasion with shouts of Joy saying,'' Let us draw from the wells of salvation, Save Now O' king of the universe.

The temple is the only temple built in which the light is designed to stream out instead of in and there is no courtyard in Jerusalem that is not lit up from this light. The people are camping everywhere and all the nations come to witness this event in which the nations themselves are saved on this one occasion.

This is the short version but where have I learned these things about God?

Who really knows God?

If they are the only ones to teach these things and these things tell us who God is, Then who really knows the Messiah?

I always thought salvation came from not drinking or sinning but there is only one thing really required.

Jeremiah 9:24 But let him who Glories glory in this, That he understands and knows me.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Then we'd have to negate/disregard all of History, the way our years are formatted (B.C./A.D.),


The year is 5769. No 'BC' or 'AD' necessary.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Telling people to believe in Jesus or suffer eternal damnation does one thing and one thing only, It pushes them farther away from hearing anything you say.


http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo240/koushishinigami/006vader006-1.jpg

The Force is strong with this one.

[And Can It Be]

Interesting that you'd claim that (without any Scripture to back up your claim), especially after GOD, his CREATOR, had told him, that his disobedience would bring about his death. . .and mentions nothing whatsoever about "his innocence". . .and you accuse me of "reading WAY to much into the idea of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness"???

GOD BLESS you, for that most awesome statement of Truth: "Granted, Jesus proved that he was the true Israelite who lived by every word of God. He showed Himself faithful and capable of redeeming His people, but the reason He did this is because he had the Holy Spirit in full measure. He was truly God and truly man 'inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, and inseparably'"

JESUS CHRIST is as much GOD as GOD IS GOD. HE had to be GOD, because ONLY GOD can satisfy GOD; HE had to be man, because man was messed up. . .Kinda like the KINSMAN/REDEEMER in the book of Ruth, huh???
Just as Abe dislikes the KJV, so also, I dislike the NIV. Here's why. . .and please compare the two (your Scriptural reference from the two versions), "WHO, being in THE FORM of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD: But made HIMSELF of no reputation, and took upon HIM THE FORM of a Servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, HE humbled HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore GOD also hath highly exalted HIM, and given HIM a NAME which is above every name: That at THE NAME of JESUS every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD, to THE GLORY of GOD THE FATHER."

JESUS CHRIST THE Man, IS/became what Adam, and all of us, could have become. . .if Adam had just obeyed his CREATOR GOD.

Okay.

The Scripture is there. . .have you seen it? You disagree with me, and tell me, "And remember. . .Scriptural support for all that you "opine"", but you do everything but that which you've agree with me that is to be done. . .so that I'll discuss/debate you regarding this matter.


First Question: Where is the Scripture proof that Cain married his sister, or any other relative???:think::think::think:

Second Question: Where is the Scripture proofthat Genesis 2 is a retelling/summarizing of Genesis 1. . .and not just a continuation of Genesis 1???:think::think::think:

Third Question: Where is the Scripture proofthat GOD had no problem with the son marrying his sister. . .especially when they both are the children of the same Father and Mother???:think::think::think:

Interesting that you'd claim that (without any Scripture to back up your claim), especially after GOD, his CREATOR, had told him, that his disobedience would bring about his death. . .and mentions nothing whatsoever about "his innocence". . .and you accuse me of "reading WAY to much into the idea of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness"???

I don't understand your theology so I don't know where you are coming from.

As far as Adam's innocence goes, the historic Christian faith teaches that Adam and Eve were created innocent with the possibility of falling into sin. Eve was deceived, but Adam sinned deliberately. I don't believe that I should have to prove everything. I assume that you have a basic knowledge of Christian doctrine.

"But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3 NIV).

"And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (1 Timothy 2:14 NIV).

Adam willingly ate the fruit even though he was not deceived as Eve was. It was a deliberate act of disobedience.

Romans 5:12-21 compares Adam as the old man with Jesus Christ as the New man. Adam brought death to the world through sin. Jesus brings life through justification and grace.

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
Romans 5:12-21 (New International Version)

As far as your questions about what we now call incestuous marriage, the law was not yet given regarding these "unlawful relations." Remember that Adam lived prior to the giving of the Law. The main reason for not marrying a sister is that any children produced by that union may have genetic birth defects. Adam and Eve obviously carried genetic material to account for the variety of all human beings so brother/sister intermarriage at this early stage of human life would not be likely to produce genetic disease and/or defects.

The Law was not given until the Israelites came out of Egypt. The laws regarding incest are given in Leviticus 18. "But sin is not taken into account when there is no law" (Romans 5:13 NIV).

I am not interested in answering Question #2. My theory about the age of the earth is that it is probably quite old. I believe that God created the universe "in the beginning"--whenever that was.

JESUS CHRIST THE Man, IS/became what Adam, and all of us, could have become. . .if Adam had just obeyed his CREATOR GOD.

You're kidding! If Jesus is God as you just admitted, how can man ever become what Jesus is--the Only Begotten Son, full of grace and truth? Man can never become fully God and fully man. As I said before, I think your doctrine of Christ is a little wacky.

[Lie Sniper]

.......Snip........
Lie Sniper dude, what can I say about him? Meh, I don't know, can't figure dude out.
...Snip...

Maw ha ha haa. :twisted:

That's the way....a ha a ha.. I like it..a ha a ha...


At least I got honorable mention! :dance:

[Jacob_Rising]

Maw ha ha haa. :twisted:

That's the way....a ha a ha.. I like it..a ha a ha...


At least I got honorable mention! :dance::) You are so funny dude, That song brings so many memories back, I see myself when I was 15 at the Electric Ice cream machine playing defender. That was 30 years ago and I still have a Calluce on my knuckle from it sliding back and forth on the boared.

[Jacob_Rising]

:clap::clap:

If the nice Catholic lady picks this as the Post of the Decade, I'll consider buying a rosary...I would sure hope that I didn't pride myself by getting Post of the day or decade because I told lies about people.:)

I would like to see somebody getting Post of the day for saying something profound and yes, I'm aware I should recieve this award everyday but dark gloom covers the people and the blind lead the blind and they just can't see my genius because it's just too deep.:)

I did get post of the day once and I have to tell you that I had never been so proud!

That's really the truth, I was so proud that I told my whole family as if I had won the Lotto.

I'm seriously thinking of doing recon and sneak attacks, and that way I could go around and break everyone's fingers But Meri's and I could get Post of the day everyday.

Isn't it funny how wise Meri really is, That just this little thing of Post of the day could mean so much to somebody?

It doesn't take much to make people happy, It's just those little things in life like that which makes me grin like a curdog and makes me want to try harder.

Thanks Meri--For the little things.

Without women we men wouldn't have much of a life, They think of all those things that escape most men, Yeah I know that some men are women in that they have emotions but most men don't. What would a Holiday be if women were not there to make it beautiful?

I guess that's why we love women so much, because they possess qualities that we just don't have, Of course you have your exception and you find men with emotions, Heck, If Rayman had some child bearing hips and a pretty dress to wear, I would have to keep my eyes on the ground if I was around him, He's such a sensitive guy.

[Abe]

Heck, If Rayman had some child bearing hips and a pretty dress to wear, I would have to keep my eyes on the ground if I was around him, He's such a sensitive guy.That's good, J_R. Embarrass HIM for a change...:))

[khigh]

Please allow me to just deal with THE RESURRECTION, for now.
More people (eyewitnesses) saw THE RESURRECTED JESUS CHRIST than all of the people, combined, who saw the assassinated Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley, and John Kennedy. At least 10 of HIS original 12 Disciples died martyr's deaths rather than to renounce THE RESURRECTION. . .so you have to ask yourself, "Who would die for a lie. . .especially when they knew it to be a lie?" Add to the aforementioned, the fact that no one has yet to uncover, and/nor discover, the remains of THE MOST Well Known CELEBRITY of the ages, it would be safe to state, as well as believe for certain, that THE RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST is FACT!!!

What you stated is what the Christian bible (rewritten hundreds of times and lost in translation) says. I mean proof-physical, hard proof. Many people die for lies and not everything is true because they die for that. Jonestown? Many people died there for a cause, does that make it the truth?

I do believe that Jesus of Nazareth lived- as an incarnation of the Great and Holy Lord Vishnu, just as Muhammad and Buddha walked this Earth as incarnations. Jesus did many great works and was martyred, but I do not believe that he is a son of any god- yet an embodiment of one.

[Poisonshady313]

Second Question: Where is the Scripture proofthat Genesis 2 is a retelling/summarizing of Genesis 1. . .and not just a continuation of Genesis 1???:think::think::think:


Genesis 1:27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 1:31. And God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good, and it was evening and it was morning, the sixth day.

Genesis 2:5. Now no tree of the field was yet on the earth, neither did any herb of the field yet grow, because the Lord God had not brought rain upon the earth, and there was no man to work the soil.

Genesis 2:7. And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:22. And the Lord God built the side that He had taken from man into a woman, and He brought her to man.



The beginning of the recap begins at Genesis 2:4

4. These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.


Because if God created man and woman on the 6th day, but after the 7th day there was no man or woman, then God is a liar.

God is not a liar (do you want scriptural proof for that too?)

If chapter 2, beginning at verse 4, is not merely a re-cap of the last few days of creation... then you would have to believe that God is an incompetent fool.

I do not believe that God is an incompetent fool.

[Finality]

Please allow me to just deal with THE RESURRECTION, for now.
More people (eyewitnesses) saw THE RESURRECTED JESUS CHRIST than all of the people, combined, who saw the assassinated Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley, and John Kennedy. At least 10 of HIS original 12 Disciples died martyr's deaths rather than to renounce THE RESURRECTION. . .so you have to ask yourself, "Who would die for a lie. . .especially when they knew it to be a lie?" Add to the aforementioned, the fact that no one has yet to uncover, and/nor discover, the remains of THE MOST Well Known CELEBRITY of the ages, it would be safe to state, as well as believe for certain, that THE RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST is FACT!!!
This? This is your proof? :rolleyes: Jesus, at the time, was perhaps the least known "celebrity" of the ages.

[Jacob_Rising]

What you stated is what the Christian bible (rewritten hundreds of times and lost in translation) says. I mean proof-physical, hard proof. Many people die for lies and not everything is true because they die for that. Jonestown? Many people died there for a cause, does that make it the truth?

I do believe that Jesus of Nazareth lived- as an incarnation of the Great and Holy Lord Vishnu, just as Muhammad and Buddha walked this Earth as incarnations. Jesus did many great works and was martyred, but I do not believe that he is a son of any god- yet an embodiment of one.I really love your Avatar because it has to be the most beautiful woman I have ever seen, Just like serious Hindus, they are usually some of the Most beautiful people inside because of the Truth they have found in humbleness and the realization that doesn't even come to alot of Christians.

That every action has a consequence and so we must all seek enlightenment and there is much to learn from the Hindus in this way, because they admit the truth to themselves and seek Moksha.

If I was going to talk to Hindus, I would go back to the Upanishads and get the basics and the basics are so common with Christianity that it's hard to deny the fact that God has really sent his language to all nations and it's found among all people like it says in the Psalms.

What Christian could find the law of Manu and deny it's righteousness? I certainly wouldn't , It's a great law and righteous.

I think you speak Correctly in that Jesus was an Avatar of sorts and I can understand why you acknowledge him the way you do.

All we seek as Christians is alot the same you seek, the atman and becoming one with the all knowing God like the air inside a bottle is still that same air outside the bottle isn't it?

It's almost as if God has come to you and shown you the same things he has shown us whereas you have the Gita and we have the New Testament.

Your krishna desires to be within you and you within him as we desire to be within Jesus and him in us.

We have the same principles that's in your Trimurta, and we also have 3 visitations by our Messiah as you do with Brahma.

We say the Father, The son and the Holy spirit while you say Brahma, Vishnu and the Shiva.

You say the Avatars are both Animal and Human and we would tell you that we worship the Lion of Judah and the lamb of Israel.

You seek the right way of living in the dhama and so do we because we also realize that enlightenment can only be found by seeing the cause and effect, the ripples from each action of our lives because they do come with consequences.

I have never really met any Hindus but I would say that the true serious ones must be on the true path of a Human being and that I can really respect what you believe in, and I don't see myself any better than you because I see us as one, just as everything is one.

Having said that, There is one big difference in what you believe and what I believe.

I can find no escape in Hinduism and I just don't think it was meant to be that way because we are just humans and not Avatars, and so why should we chain ourselves in our past missdeeds?

We have a very good saying from the book of Mathew that really gives me relief from my past sins, The beginning may look very familiar to you but there is a big fundamental difference.

Mathew 11:27 '' All things have been delivered to Me by my Father, and no one knows the son but the Father. Nor does anyone know the father except the Son, and he to whom the son wills to reveal Him.

'' Come to Me, all you who Labor and are heavy laden, And I will give you rest. '' Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and Lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and My Burden is light.''

What Jesus is saying here seems so right to me.

As humans we are just somehow defective and enlightenment comes from trial and error, and falling and getting up time and time again to the point that we become weary and it would seem to me if there really was a God, that he really would come to us and give us rest and happiness in taking our sins and misdeeds onto himself, or else how would we achieve true enlightenment if we are so burdened with no escape from our own pasts?

It would seem to me that an all knowing God would understand who we are and so he lets us revel in our own sins until we become so weighed down by our memories until we look up to him and say,'' Father, you know my heart, please take these things from me''

This is the difference between Christianity and Hinduism.

We have an escape from our pasts and we are able to start over and be dead to our past sins.

Many people don't see a need for a God to come down from his heaven just to die for us But I certainly see a great need for it.

This is my personal facts about knowing that Jesus came and died for me.

Because of the fact that I couldn't live with myself without forgiveness, without a God who understands that the weight of my sins are so heavy, I had to have an escape, It had to be in order for me to carry on in this life, or I would be crushed under the Load.

[natalie addict]

Genesis 1:27. And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis 1:31. And God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good, and it was evening and it was morning, the sixth day.

Genesis 2:5. Now no tree of the field was yet on the earth, neither did any herb of the field yet grow, because the Lord God had not brought rain upon the earth, and there was no man to work the soil.

Genesis 2:7. And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:22. And the Lord God built the side that He had taken from man into a woman, and He brought her to man.



The beginning of the recap begins at Genesis 2:4

4. These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.


Because if God created man and woman on the 6th day, but after the 7th day there was no man or woman, then God is a liar.

God is not a liar (do you want scriptural proof for that too?)

If chapter 2, beginning at verse 4, is not merely a re-cap of the last few days of creation... then you would have to believe that God is an incompetent fool.

I do not believe that God is an incompetent fool.

For those of youse so inclined, R Crumb recently did a comic strip version of the Book of Genesis, all 50 chapters!

The first three chapters were published recently in the New Yorker magazine, dated June 8 & 15, 2009. It is, by his account, a serious take on the subject.

At first, he thought about doing a take-off of the story of Adam and Eve, and then a friend suggested that he do the whole of Genesis. Crumb accepted the challenge, but the text seemed to him so bizarre that he quickly realized he couldn't sustain a satirical approach. He resolved to use the words of the Bible unabridged: "I did it as a straight illustration job."

[Jacob_Rising]

Book of Genesis, all 50 chapters!
Thank you so much for saying this, I had to look it up just to see if there were really 50 chapters, That means alot to me.

[captusa]

........The All Knowing Captusa which happens to be color blind I think, or maybe it's just me.
I believe O'll cap is a Jesuit Priest if I remember correctly.
???????????????????
In my philosophy classes Jesuitical was a pejorative
I am a orthodox non-theists but some of my best friends are Jesuit Priests
.............
I can't find my Crayons.
It's good you don't have access to sharp objects

[Jacob_Rising]

???????????????????
In my philosophy classes Jesuitical was a pejorative
I am a orthodox non-theists but some of my best friends are Jesuit Priests
.............

It's good you don't have access to sharp objectsIt was just a joke cap, but your right, I shouldn't be around sharp objects, I have allready cut 3 digits off in the past.

[davetexas]

Listen up dude, AND LISTEN WELL.

I don't think you have a clue who you are messing with man!!!!!!

Stand in the place where you are, Now look East, Think about direction wonder why you have it.

I don't think you realize the place in which you now find yourself in, and so, I feel it's my obligation to buy you some books and send you to school before you get hurt, I'm just going to make this one threat and if you don't come around, I'll have to resort to sending you painfull E-mails telling you how much I love you man.

I purposely came fighting with you because you remind me of a dude name Flavius{Old me}. When I first came here, I had the same kind of wonderfull passion like you have and I admire that.

So I thought I would give you the heads up about this place.

This is just a wonderful forum with wonderfull people from all different faiths and I havm't ever found a better one and believe me when I say, '' I have search hard for forums.''

It really suked to be me for the first few years because I was so argumentative and I just wanted extreme debate. It was more like an attack than a discussion and what happened is that it stuck with me and It still hangs over my head.

Luckily I was banned and I was given the chance by the very good understanding moderators to come back as Jacob_Rising and it was so nice because I became somebody else. These people didn't have those memories of me from being on the attack and I was able to give them another perspective of myself. Unfortunately, I keep changing and I've gone nearly insane but that's ok now.

It's ok because this is just not a Forum, it's a family room.

I can't find a way to express my gratitude and thankfullness for all the knowledge I've learned from the Catholics, and Mormons, and Jews, and Lds, Universalists, Pentacostals, ect. But of couse I taught them all they know anyway.:shhh:

Take my advise and try not to scroo the pooch like I did and continue to do at times.

Take a look good look at the conversation between me and you and see what we give.

We are such a Tight nit family that we would take up for each other no matter what our differences are. It sounds silly to say so, But this forum is about the only life I have, and these people are so forgiving and kind, and respectful that it may just change your life at times.

Even if you get really weird, they seem so understanding, Heck, you could even claim you are Elijah or somebody or do something crazy and they will forget after a time.:eh:

We even love the Athiests like Sketch, But then we really should be kind to the mentally retarded.:shifty:

We got the Hermano Rayguy Sunshine who really needs to lighten up because the dude is wound up like the string inside a golf ball and he is so serious that he may explode, But we will be here to pick dude up again when it happens. The guy just needs to get a sense of Humor.

Lie Sniper dude, what can I say about him? Meh, I don't know, can't figure dude out.

We Got the Meri Weather who really can change the weather at times, I think she just might be one of the two witnesses.

We Got Abe and his one good eye but it never shuts, I like this Abe dude so much that I have written a Love poem about him and it goes like this, '' You wish Abe!''

We Got the Sweetest Catholics Like Vir who will just surpize you sometimes just like God does, Just when you think she is through with you, she lasso's you back in and you feel like you have another chance.

The All Knowing Captusa which happens to be color blind I think, or maybe it's just me.
I believe O'll cap is a Jesuit Priest if I remember correctly.

Taylorw65 who is an expert on Star trek, having seen every episode of Generations, he prides himself in Knowing all the names and habits of every officer aboard the Star Trek Enterprize, But don't let him rope you into his Captain Picard religion.

We got Ldwc and Drs which I'm pretty sure are twins of the same mother, Their real names are Jim, and Jim.

Poison Shady and Harmonious which are wonderful Christian Jews:)) NO I didn't, Well I better not. Naa Shady and Harmonious are heros of Mine, They are not Christians, they are Observant Jews whom I have learned so much from.

We Got FireWatch and Constantine which I always get mixed up because they both scare me to death, I try and not be heard or seen when they are around.

Well, I could go on and on about the people here and how much they have helped me, and how much I love these people. So take my advise and take the slow train going West and you might find yourself in love with all these people like I have, and you just might see just the right color orange when the Sun goes down.

If you don't, I might just call the lightning down to wake you up? :eh:

You can seriously learn alot in this place, You wouldn't believe the experts we have here.

I can't find my Crayons.

you speak from the "accepted in clique" vantage point.

The 'stepchildren' do not enjoy the warmth of the RF club

[captusa]

It was just a joke cap, but your right, I shouldn't be around sharp objects, I have allready cut 3 digits off in the past.
I know.
I just limit my use of smilies.

[Jacob_Rising]

you speak from the "accepted in clique" vantage point.

The 'stepchildren' do not enjoy the warmth of the RF clubI wouldn't say that at all Dave, I would even say that you were more accepted than I have ever been and for good reason, I have been insane for the majority of time I have been here.

I have been more insulting and intolerable above anyone in my attacks on people here and everyone knows it.

I'm just now getting people to talk to me again after my recent lapses of insanity.

They might have accepted me but it was only as the crazy dude in the Van down by the River.

Oh, Your pulling my leg aren't you?

[Jacob_Rising]

I know.
I just limit my use of smilies.Oh, Yeah I do too, I'm getting better at putting them up though.

[Jacob_Rising]

Exodus 12:49, expressly forbids such a system of having two sets of laws within a society.



'' One law shall be for the Native born and for the stranger who SOJOURNS with you.

This law cannot be applied to the whole world, It is applied to the stranger who came out of Egypt and became as one with Israel, A Proselyte.

At the Exodus there were many of these Strangers who became one with Israel and the same law pertained to them as it did the native born. For instance, Caleb the Great Prince of Judah who was one of the two witnesses and one of the only two men to cross over was not an Israelite, he was a kenninite who became a Prince of Judah and accepted the same law under the same contract when all the people said, '' I do, I will''

But how in the world would you apply the whole law to gentiles of this day and age when we are not raised in the law?

This is why we see Paul and the other Jewish Christians following the law of Moses while at the same time they were giving a different law to gentiles.

It's common sense.

[Harmonious]

Devarim 10:14. Behold, to the Lord, your God, belong the heavens and the heavens of the heavens, the earth, and all that is on it. יד. הֵן לַי־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ הַשָּׁמַיִם וּשְׁמֵי הַשָּׁמָיִם הָאָרֶץ וְכָל אֲשֶׁר בָּהּ:
15. Only your forefathers the Lord desired, to love them, and He chose their seed after them you, out of all peoples, as it is this day. טו. רַק בַּאֲבֹתֶיךָ חָשַׁק יְ־הֹוָ־ה לְאַהֲבָה אוֹתָם וַיִּבְחַר בְּזַרְעָם אַחֲרֵיהֶם בָּכֶם מִכָּל הָעַמִּים כַּיּוֹם הַזֶּה:
16. You shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, therefore, and be no more stiffnecked. טז. וּמַלְתֶּם אֵת עָרְלַת לְבַבְכֶם וְעָרְפְּכֶם

How does one circumcise the foreskin of their heart?

Devarim 30:1. And it will be, when all these things come upon you the blessing and the curse which I have set before you that you will consider in your heart, among all the nations where the Lord your God has banished you, א. וְהָיָה כִי יָבֹאוּ עָלֶיךָ כָּל הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה הַבְּרָכָה וְהַקְּלָלָה אֲשֶׁר נָתַתִּי לְפָנֶיךָ וַהֲשֵׁבֹתָ אֶל לְבָבֶךָ בְּכָל הַגּוֹיִם אֲשֶׁר הִדִּיחֲךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ שָׁמָּה:
2. and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and you will listen to His voice according to all that I am commanding you this day you and your children, ב. וְשַׁבְתָּ עַד יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ וְשָׁמַעְתָּ בְקֹלוֹ כְּכֹל אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוְּךָ הַיּוֹם אַתָּה וּבָנֶיךָ בְּכָל לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל נַפְשֶׁךָ:
3. then, the Lord, your God, will bring back your exiles, and He will have mercy upon you. He will once again gather you from all the nations, where the Lord, your God, had dispersed you. ג. וְשָׁב יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶת שְׁבוּתְךָ וְרִחֲמֶךָ וְשָׁב וְקִבֶּצְךָ מִכָּל הָעַמִּים אֲשֶׁר הֱפִיצְךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ שָׁמָּה:
4. Even if your exiles are at the end of the heavens, the Lord, your God, will gather you from there, and He will take you from there. ד. אִם יִהְיֶה נִדַּחֲךָ בִּקְצֵה הַשָּׁמָיִם מִשָּׁם יְקַבֶּצְךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ וּמִשָּׁם יִקָּחֶךָ:
5. And the Lord, your God, will bring you to the land which your forefathers possessed, and you [too] will take possession of it, and He will do good to you, and He will make you more numerous than your forefathers. ה. וֶהֱבִיאֲךָ יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶל הָאָרֶץ אֲשֶׁר יָרְשׁוּ אֲבֹתֶיךָ וִירִשְׁתָּהּ וְהֵיטִבְךָ וְהִרְבְּךָ מֵאֲבֹתֶיךָ:
6. And the Lord, your God, will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, [so that you may] love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, for the sake of your life. ו. וּמָל יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֶת לְבָבְךָ וְאֶת לְבַב זַרְעֶךָ לְאַהֲבָה אֶת יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ בְּכָל לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל נַפְשְׁךָ לְמַעַן חַיֶּיךָ:

Why does G-d say that He will circumcise the heart? And why is "so that you may" in brackets?

We do not see as G-d sees.

Shmuel I 16:7. And the Lord said to Samuel, "Look not upon his appearance, or the height of his stature, for I have rejected him, for it is not as man sees, (what is visible) to the eyes, while the Lord sees into the heart."

Rashi:
for it is not as man sees: Even though you called yourself ‘seer,’ for you said to Saul, “I am the seer,” (supra 9:19), here I inform you that you do not see.

All scriptures from http://chabad.orgI hear you, and I see your text. But that doesn't mean that "circumcising one's heart" is categorically a rejection of Jewish law.

Intent does matter... sometimes.

[Meriweather]

The point And Can It Be’s is making is that two sets of laws lowers expectations and diminishes the people who are not required to live up to greater expectations. It sets the stage for one group to consider themselves better than any other—and drives a wedge between the two sets of people. The Jews have paid heavily—very dearly—for their insistence on exclusivity. History shows the wedges that are driven between Jewish society and gentiles.

I understand why PoisonShady and Harmonious are insulted by Jews wanting to follow a different set of laws being compared to the differences in the Nuremburg or Jim Crow laws. While those of the Jewish faith might be wise to take heed of the realities of insisting on separate sets of rules, another analogy is equally appropriate here—perhaps more so.

Jews feel they are set aside, trained if you will, for certain circumstances unique only to Jews. Instead of the Jim Crow and Nuremburg analogies, we might offer sports training analogies. Basketball players go through different training exercises than football players; the military’s physical fitness training differs from both. The Jews here, and I am going to assume because it’s being done here, today, then the Jews throughout the ages have been careful to explain this difference. They are not trying to put down anyone; they are trying to remain faithful to their training and disciplines.

As children of the Father, I do think it is crucial we take care to understand and present these distinctions lest tensions and resentments build rather than understanding and cooperation.

[khigh]

I really love your Avatar because it has to be the most beautiful woman I have ever seen, Just like serious Hindus, they are usually some of the Most beautiful people inside because of the Truth they have found in humbleness and the realization that doesn't even come to alot of Christians.

It is one of the most beautiful women in the world- Aishwarya Rai. One time Miss World (most Bollywood actresses hold that title (or Miss Universe)), and Bollywood star. Those are two pictures from her wedding.

That every action has a consequence and so we must all seek enlightenment and there is much to learn from the Hindus in this way, because they admit the truth to themselves and seek Moksha.

If I was going to talk to Hindus, I would go back to the Upanishads and get the basics and the basics are so common with Christianity that it's hard to deny the fact that God has really sent his language to all nations and it's found among all people like it says in the Psalms.

What Christian could find the law of Manu and deny it's righteousness? I certainly wouldn't , It's a great law and righteous.

I think you speak Correctly in that Jesus was an Avatar of sorts and I can understand why you acknowledge him the way you do.

All we seek as Christians is alot the same you seek, the atman and becoming one with the all knowing God like the air inside a bottle is still that same air outside the bottle isn't it?

It's almost as if God has come to you and shown you the same things he has shown us whereas you have the Gita and we have the New Testament.

Your krishna desires to be within you and you within him as we desire to be within Jesus and him in us.

We have the same principles that's in your Trimurta, and we also have 3 visitations by our Messiah as you do with Brahma.

We say the Father, The son and the Holy spirit while you say Brahma, Vishnu and the Shiva.

The main difference is that our Brahma has over 300,000 names. Every day, twice a day, I pray to Brahma as the Lord of all Lords, Dakshayani as the Goddess of fidelity and marriage health, and Durga as the protectress of warriors (I usually pray to her more when my husband is deployed- last time they went to Iraq, not a single soldier in his batallion got hurt or killed-close calls, but no injuries).

Sometimes, I need to call on Ganesha (wealth or the Lord over Obstacles) or thank him.
You say the Avatars are both Animal and Human and we would tell you that we worship the Lion of Judah and the lamb of Israel.

Another thing to read if you want to understand the laws is the Rig Veda. I usually carry a copy of that with me (along with the Constitution of the US and the Constitution of a free India).

You seek the right way of living in the dhama and so do we because we also realize that enlightenment can only be found by seeing the cause and effect, the ripples from each action of our lives because they do come with consequences.

I have never really met any Hindus but I would say that the true serious ones must be on the true path of a Human being and that I can really respect what you believe in, and I don't see myself any better than you because I see us as one, just as everything is one.

Having said that, There is one big difference in what you believe and what I believe.

I can find no escape in Hinduism and I just don't think it was meant to be that way because we are just humans and not Avatars, and so why should we chain ourselves in our past missdeeds?

We have a very good saying from the book of Mathew that really gives me relief from my past sins, The beginning may look very familiar to you but there is a big fundamental difference.

Mathew 11:27 '' All things have been delivered to Me by my Father, and no one knows the son but the Father. Nor does anyone know the father except the Son, and he to whom the son wills to reveal Him.

'' Come to Me, all you who Labor and are heavy laden, And I will give you rest. '' Take my yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and Lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and My Burden is light.''

What Jesus is saying here seems so right to me.

As humans we are just somehow defective and enlightenment comes from trial and error, and falling and getting up time and time again to the point that we become weary and it would seem to me if there really was a God, that he really would come to us and give us rest and happiness in taking our sins and misdeeds onto himself, or else how would we achieve true enlightenment if we are so burdened with no escape from our own pasts?

It would seem to me that an all knowing God would understand who we are and so he lets us revel in our own sins until we become so weighed down by our memories until we look up to him and say,'' Father, you know my heart, please take these things from me''

This is the difference between Christianity and Hinduism.

We have an escape from our pasts and we are able to start over and be dead to our past sins.

We have the same thing, reincarnation. Granted, if you had a major sin in your current life, murder, molestation, etc. you are going to be reborn into a lower lifeform. When you obtain enlightenment and attone for all sins in all of your lives, you reach enlightenment.

Many people don't see a need for a God to come down from his heaven just to die for us But I certainly see a great need for it.

This is my personal facts about knowing that Jesus came and died for me.

Because of the fact that I couldn't live with myself without forgiveness, without a God who understands that the weight of my sins are so heavy, I had to have an escape, It had to be in order for me to carry on in this life, or I would be crushed under the Load.

[Abe]

The point And Can It Be’s is making is that two sets of laws lowers expectations and diminishes the people who are not required to live up to greater expectations. It sets the stage for one group to consider themselves better than any other—and drives a wedge between the two sets of people. The Jews have paid heavily—very dearly—for their insistence on exclusivity. History shows the wedges that are driven between Jewish society and gentiles.

I understand why PoisonShady and Harmonious are insulted by Jews wanting to follow a different set of laws being compared to the differences in the Nuremburg or Jim Crow laws. While those of the Jewish faith might be wise to take heed of the realities of insisting on separate sets of rules, another analogy is equally appropriate here—perhaps more so.

Jews feel they are set aside, trained if you will, for certain circumstances unique only to Jews. Instead of the Jim Crow and Nuremburg analogies, we might offer sports training analogies. Basketball players go through different training exercises than football players; the military’s physical fitness training differs from both. The Jews here, and I am going to assume because it’s being done here, today, then the Jews throughout the ages have been careful to explain this difference. They are not trying to put down anyone; they are trying to remain faithful to their training and disciplines.

As children of the Father, I do think it is crucial we take care to understand and present these distinctions lest tensions and resentments build rather than understanding and cooperation.

:clap::clap:

[Jacob_Rising]

The main difference is that our Brahma has over 300,000 names. Every day, twice a day, I pray to Brahma as the Lord of all Lords, Dakshayani as the Goddess of fidelity and marriage health, and Durga as the protectress of warriors (I usually pray to her more when my husband is deployed- last time they went to Iraq, not a single soldier in his batallion got hurt or killed-close calls, but no injuries).

This is why I said,'' If I talked to a Hindu, I would go back and start at the Upanishads'' Because it just leads back to one God being Brahma and The Lord of Lords of Hinduism. Much has changed since then though but all religions change in some ways.

I always like to go back to the beginning because I guess that's where you would find the Most raw truth of the matter.

From what I remember it was Brahma alone but correct me if I'm wrong and if it was a Mono then it is much more comparable to our God in which we believe there is but One God with many aspects who controls all regions of life.

I find the same common threads in most all religions and I can't help but think that we all worship the same God because of all the common threads.

You believe in Reincarnation and so if I don't do well, then I am sent back to a Lower level but where would it stop?

I may do good in the next life but then do bad in the life after that and I end up back at the same place.

But I choose to think that God only sees us and communicates to us because he does really want to become one with us.

I have to believe that this world cannot go on forever because in fact, It wont, and so I search for immortality and believe that God has a plan to show himself to all humans in some kind of way.

Being that we have such common threads, it must be the same God and I believe he just simply wants us to know him. In knowing him, we become connected.

If he can communicate with us, then it would seem that he has put his spirit inside us, and if he put his spirit inside us, wouldn't he one day call his spirit back with all the different individuals that come with his spirit?

Is there a point in Hinduism when Humans become immortal where a God would come down and commune with us face to face after immortality?

[Jacob_Rising]

The point And Can It Be’s is making is that two sets of laws lowers expectations and diminishes the people who are not required to live up to greater expectations.

I would say that there really is just one law for all people but that Gentiles are just given a Choice to choose the lesser number of Laws.

I believe Paul teaches us about the great mystery in which it had never been known that Gentiles would become Coheirs with Israel because we are grafted through the lost tribes of Israel but not just added gentiles but to actually become Israel alongside them.

It's like a secret in my eyes, That people only find if they seriously search God out.

Well after the Exodus Isaiah tells us plainly that any foriegner who would choose to do what pleases God in Holding fast to his covenant, and keeping from defiling his Sabbaths, will in no way be seperated from the inheritance of Israel.

But that would be to go an extra step for a gentile to do but I just believe the option is on the table and if the gentile chooses not to, he is still saved.

The difference to me would be that the Jews become who God tells them they will be, that they would be a light to the world and Teach the Torah to the nations one day.

While I do see two sets of laws, I also see an option for any Gentile to choose and do it all.

[khigh]

This is why I said,'' If I talked to a Hindu, I would go back and start at the Upanishads'' Because it just leads back to one God being Brahma and The Lord of Lords of Hinduism. Much has changed since then though but all religions change in some ways.

I always like to go back to the beginning because I guess that's where you would find the Most raw truth of the matter.

From what I remember it was Brahma alone but correct me if I'm wrong and if it was a Mono then it is much more comparable to our God in which we believe there is but One God with many aspects who controls all regions of life.

There is one Universal Spirit that is not named in itself, but Brahma is the Lord of Lords. The Universal Spirit is a combination of all souls that have obtained enlightenment. Each god or goddess controls a separate aspect of life. Kali controls death, Ganesha wealth, Krishna was the great warrior.

I find the same common threads in most all religions and I can't help but think that we all worship the same God because of all the common threads.

I think there are two separate paths that lead to one. There are the religions of the God of Abraham (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) and the Eastern/pantheistic religions (Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, ancient Mayan and Native American religions). Each path, however, can bring you to enlightenment.

You believe in Reincarnation and so if I don't do well, then I am sent back to a Lower level but where would it stop?

Being a politician. :shhh:

I may do good in the next life but then do bad in the life after that and I end up back at the same place.

But I choose to think that God only sees us and communicates to us because he does really want to become one with us.

I have to believe that this world cannot go on forever because in fact, It wont, and so I search for immortality and believe that God has a plan to show himself to all humans in some kind of way.

It's circular. You go round and round until one lifetime, it just clicks. You find yourself giving all your wealth away and living as a servant to your people. Not unlike Mother Theresa. I believe that she is connected body and soul now with the Universal Spirit.

Being that we have such common threads, it must be the same God and I believe he just simply wants us to know him. In knowing him, we become connected.

If he can communicate with us, then it would seem that he has put his spirit inside us, and if he put his spirit inside us, wouldn't he one day call his spirit back with all the different individuals that come with his spirit?

Is there a point in Hinduism when Humans become immortal where a God would come down and commune with us face to face after immortality?

It's hard to describe. The Earth is always going through cycles of destruction and rebirth, but those cycles are billions of years long. It's described best here:

http://baharna.com/karma/yuga.htm

So, there are about 426,000 years left until all spirits in this world are done with reincarnation and this world is destroyed to start a new one.

[Abe]

Where is the Scripture proofthat Genesis 2 is a retelling/summarizing of Genesis 1. . .and not just a continuation of Genesis 1???:think::think::think:

That's like saying, "Prove to me from the Scripture that Saul didn't kill 50 people from Beit Yayin". Since Beit Yayin (House of Wine) is nowhere to be found anywhere in 1 Samuel, (or anywhere else in the Tanakh, for that matter), it cannot be proven. Do you therefore conclude that Saul did kill those people?

This is where both language and culture come in. The Tanakh is a Jewish Scripture, written by Jews, in the Hebrew language. In order to understand it, one must understand the language, in all its nuances, as well as the culture and mentality. Biblical Jews were not Greeks. Their mentality was Middle Eastern and not European. Their writing had a Middle Eastern style, and one must actually think that way in order to understand it. There are Westerners who can do that, but they are few, because it's very difficult to leave your own mentality and adopt another one for a while.

Genesis 1 is one sentence. It's a breakneck race to tell how Shabbat came to be. The focal point here is Shabbat and why God gave us this special day. Genesis 2 brings the details of Creation.

Giving a forward, and following that with the details, is typical of Semitic writing and is nothing new. In the case of Genesis 1, it takes a whole chapter because much happened before Shabbat arrived on the Seventh Day.

[Jacob_Rising]

There is one Universal Spirit that is not named in itself, but Brahma is the Lord of Lords. The Universal Spirit is a combination of all souls that have obtained enlightenment. Each god or goddess controls a separate aspect of life. Kali controls death, Ganesha wealth, Krishna was the great warrior.



I think there are two separate paths that lead to one. There are the religions of the God of Abraham (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) and the Eastern/pantheistic religions (Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, ancient Mayan and Native American religions). Each path, however, can bring you to enlightenment.



Being a politician. :shhh:



It's circular. You go round and round until one lifetime, it just clicks. You find yourself giving all your wealth away and living as a servant to your people. Not unlike Mother Theresa. I believe that she is connected body and soul now with the Universal Spirit.



It's hard to describe. The Earth is always going through cycles of destruction and rebirth, but those cycles are billions of years long. It's described best here:

http://baharna.com/karma/yuga.htm

So, there are about 426,000 years left until all spirits in this world are done with reincarnation and this world is destroyed to start a new one.Man, I really like what you said about Mother Theresa and your definition of clicking:hug:

You are so right girl.

It is so funny how I have been raised all my life to look at Hindus as if they were Satan themselves when It turns out that I find so much Revelation and Wisdom just by having a 5 min conversation with a serious Hindu.

Did you know that our God aslo has many other Gods within his Pantheon?

There is a God in every aspects of life just like the Hindu gods and a god for different kind of prayers:shhh:

What I really mean is that our God is really one but he has many names in himself. He is , I am. He is The god of Abraham, The God of Isaac, El Shadia, El ?, Adonia, ect, ect.

Each name has a different definition for example, Our God is the God of the Mountains and he is also the God of the Valleys, the everlasting God, The God of mercy and so on.

It sounds like to me, that you have about the same thing because you have a universal God in which all Gods are one with.

I wished I could explain or relay what has happened to me in the last week.

I have been a Christian all my life but I have been in such bondage and just like an animal who is born in captivity, I never knew what it was like to be set free.

I never knew a life where the bondage was taken away, and I didn't even have a clue I was in bondage.

It's hard to explain the feeling of freedom from one'self and I doubt there are words for it.

I was just like any Christian out there who believed that God had taken my sins on to himself but I never realized that I still carried them around with me.

I had no idea they were still here until they were really taken away.

Over 30 years of thinking that I was free but wasn't until recently.

It's like I had been blind from birth but I never had any sort of conception of sight because you can't explain sight to somebody who is blind, they just have know conception of it.

People who are born blind and then recieve sight by new medical breakthroughs are astonished what sight really is when they begin to see because they cannot ever fathom what sight is until they recieve it.

It's like you and I and my misguided sense of loving you just a few months ago.

I would say that I thought I loved my neighbor, and I would have thought I loved you even though you are Hindu and in times past, I would have seen you as ,'' Unsaved''

But now I truly do love you and I'm allowed to see and feel that love for you for the first time because I can see the righteousness in you and tell what a wonderful person you are.

It's like when you go out on a date and you feel an overwhelming love for somebody and so eventually you get married and people remark about how in love you two are together.

And you go through life thinking that you really love your spouse but usually it's not really true love.

To find true love for your spouse isn't really that hard.

People who are married tend to whine about their mate more than anything, They go to work and tell their closest friends about having to deal with their mate and this is so far from love that it's just depressing.

But to find true love for your mate is so exciting and so overwhelming that there just isn't any words to explain it.

Instead of complaining about your mate, You just decide that you are going to talk to everyone about her or him, and even if you have to almost lie, you go around and tell everyone how special that person is to you.

You can have the worst marriage in the world but you would be surprized how easy that can change by the little words that you hear coming from your own mouth.

If everyone put this to practice in their own marriage, there would be no need for marriage councilers. The more you hear yourself talking really good about your mate, the more you fall in love.

Pretty soon, you will find yourself speeding home and you can't wait to get back to that loved one, when before, you would stop at a friends or find any excuse not to go home, because the magic had left a long time ago.

That's what has happened to me in a way, all my life, I never knew what love was and to find it is magic.

To find that I would love somebody like you is magic.

I have never been able to look at you before with eyes of love because I felt sorry for you because I thought that you were going straight to hell.

But now it's so nice to see people like you for the first time and to feel so much happiness for you, because I'm allowed to see the love and magic in you.

All this comes down to one simple thing, It came down to me loving myself because I found a way to forgive myself, and now I know and feel true love because I found an escape.

I was released for the first time in my life after being born in the captivity of my own depravity.

But I had always rationalized saying,'' Yes I know that my sins are forgiven'' But I was still in bondage with my sins of the past. Allthough I understood the process, it was never really put into place, I never took hold of it for real.

I wished I could explain how free I feel now but there just is no way to explian it.

To actually feel the load and weight of my sins, and to actually love myself for the first time is unexplainable.

It's magic!

[Mikko]

:clap::clap:
+1 Meri is a very, very, deep and insightful spiritual thinker.

[Mikko]

This thread gives me a wonderful chance to test my powers of intuition and my ability to learn and recognize patterns with predictive effectiveness.:)

[Jacob_Rising]

This thread gives me a wonderful chance to test my powers of intuition and my ability to learn and recognize patterns with predictive effectiveness.:)You always did know what was coming next Radar.

Uh Oh, Incoming!

[Abe]

You always did know what was coming next Radar.

Uh Oh, Incoming!:))

[Drawz]

You always did know what was coming next Radar.

Uh Oh, Incoming!

I believe that should be, "Uh Oh, Choppers!" :)

[Mikko]

You always did know what was coming next Radar.

Uh Oh, Incoming!
:lol::dance:

[Koushi Shinigami]

You always did know what was coming next Radar.

Uh Oh, Incoming!

Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be
The pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make all our little joys relate
Without that ever-present hate but now I know that it’s too late,

and . . .That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The game of life is hard to play. I’m gonna lose it anyway.

The losing card I’ll someday lay so this is all I have to say.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The only way to win is cheat and lay it down before I’m beat,

and to another give my seat for that’s the only painless feat.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The sword of time will pierce our skins it doesn’t hurt when it begins

But as it works its way on in the pain grows stronger . . . watch it grin, but . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

A brave man once requested me to answer questions that are key
'Is it to be or not to be' and I replied 'oh why ask me?'
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.
And you can do the same thing if you choose.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goB4GbeltKc&feature=related

[Jacob_Rising]

Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be
The pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make all our little joys relate
Without that ever-present hate but now I know that it’s too late,

and . . .That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The game of life is hard to play. I’m gonna lose it anyway.

The losing card I’ll someday lay so this is all I have to say.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The only way to win is cheat and lay it down before I’m beat,

and to another give my seat for that’s the only painless feat.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The sword of time will pierce our skins it doesn’t hurt when it begins

But as it works its way on in the pain grows stronger . . . watch it grin, but . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

A brave man once requested me to answer questions that are key
'Is it to be or not to be' and I replied 'oh why ask me?'
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.
And you can do the same thing if you choose.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goB4GbeltKc&feature=relatedGood song, I think I'll make that my theme song.



Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, Coming for to carry me Home.
Swing Low, sweet Chariot, Coming for to carry me Home.
I looked over Jordan and What did I see
Coming for to Carry me Home.
A band of Angels coming after me,
Coming for to Carry me Home.

Go Down Moses,
Way Down in Egypt land
Tell Old Pharaoh
To Let My people Go.

When Israel was in Egypt Land
Let My People Go.
Oppressed so Hard they could Not stand
''Let My People Go.''

''Thus saith the Lord, '' bold Moses said,
''Let My People go:
If not I'll smite your first Born dead
Let My People Go.''

Go Down, Moses
Way Down in Egypt Land,
Tell Old Pharaoh,
''Let My People Go''

[Marquus]

I hear you, and I see your text. But that doesn't mean that "circumcising one's heart" is categorically a rejection of Jewish law.

Jewish law is never rejected! A circumcised heart let's one fulfill what the law requires with the right heart.

The question is, "How can a heart be circumcised?"

[Marquus]

Deuteronomy 13:1 – All that I command you, take care to do it; you shall not add to it, and you shall not diminish from it.

Despite the fact that Jesus is recorded as having said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

It is shown that he says one thing and does another.

The Dietary Law:

The Torah makes it perfectly clear that there are animals that can defile a person if consumed, or even touched.

Leviticus 11:4
But these you shall not eat among those that bring up the cud and those that have a cloven hoof: the camel, because it brings up its cud, but does not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you.

Leviticus 11:5
And the hyrax, because it brings up its cud, but will not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you;

Leviticus 11:6
And the hare, because it brings up its cud, but does not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you;

Leviticus 11:7
And the pig, because it has a cloven hoof that is completely split, but will not regurgitate its cud; it is unclean for you.

Leviticus 11:8
You shall not eat of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.


Leviticus 11:26
Any animal that has a cloven hoof that is not completely split, and which does not bring up its cud, is unclean for you. Anyone who touches them shall become unclean.

Leviticus 11:27
And among all the animals that walk on four legs, any [animal] that walks on its paws is unclean for you. Anyone who touches their carcass will be unclean until evening.

Leviticus 11:40
And one who eats of its carcass shall immerse his garments, and he shall be unclean until evening. And one who carries its carcass shall immerse his garments, and he shall be unclean until evening.

Leviticus 11:41
And any creeping creature that creeps on the ground is an abomination; it shall not be eaten.

Leviticus 11:42
Any [creature] that goes on its belly, and any [creature] that walks on four [legs] to any [creature] that has many legs, among all creeping creatures that creep on the ground, you shall not eat, for they are an abomination.

Leviticus 11:43
You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping creature that creeps, and you shall not defile yourselves with them, that you should become unclean through them.

Leviticus 11:44
For I am the Lord your God, and you shall sanctify yourselves and be holy, because I am holy, and you shall not defile yourselves through any creeping creature that crawls on the ground.

Leviticus 11:46-47

This is the law regarding animals, birds, all living creatures that move in water and all creatures that creep on the ground, to distinguish between the unclean and the clean, and between the animal that may be eaten and the animal that may not be eaten.

Jesus begs to differ.

Matthew 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;

Another unholy change to the Torah, violating the command to neither add nor take away.

There you go. At least two instances of Jesus violating the law, with clear and abundant scriptural support.

If I ate or touched these things would I be defiled?

[Harmonious]

If I ate or touched these things would I be defiled?

If you aren't Jewish, no. If you ARE Jewish, yes.

Non-Jews are permitted by Torah law (read: God's law) to eat whatever animals you choose, as long as it's dead first.

Jews, on the other hand, have quite a strict set of dietary restrictions.

[Harmonious]

Jewish law is never rejected! A circumcised heart let's one fulfill what the law requires with the right heart.

The question is, "How can a heart be circumcised?"
As long as a person is willing to be open to the needs of their fellow human beings, I'm sure that is done quite nicely.

But there is more to being Jewish than having "a circumcised heart."

[Jacob_Rising]

Jewish law is never rejected! A circumcised heart let's one fulfill what the law requires with the right heart.

The question is, "How can a heart be circumcised?"As Far as the New Testament is concerned, The Law in it's Most simple form of the Letter should be followed By Jews and Paul showed this in action and in talking of circumcision, Galations talks of God's Israel '' Jews'' actually keeping circumcision.

'' And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.''

Why is it so very important for the Jews to keep the Law?

Because if they hadn't, all the knowledge that came with it would have been lost in the destruction of the world trying to Kill Israel.

The heritage would have been lost, Even the way and designs of Keeping the Sukkot, Thus the nations themselves would have suffered in the end.

[Marquus]

If you aren't Jewish, no. If you ARE Jewish, yes.

Non-Jews are permitted by Torah law (read: God's law) to eat whatever animals you choose, as long as it's dead first.

Jews, on the other hand, have quite a strict set of dietary restrictions.


If I understand PS and you correctly, you say it is the animal that defiles the man. If it is the animal that does it, why then am I not defiled?

Or is it as Y'shua was teaching, that the disobedience of the heart and not the animal, is what causes the defilement?

As Shmuel said to Sha'ul, "To obey is better than sacrifice" or eating forbidden meat.:)

[Marquus]

As long as a person is willing to be open to the needs of their fellow human beings, I'm sure that is done quite nicely.

But there is more to being Jewish than having "a circumcised heart."

Please allow me to indulge a little longer on this topic. The reason being is Y'shua made this the central theme of his understanding of the Tanach. Literally the heart of the Law and the Prophets.

That "You shall love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, soul, mind and strength,"
and that this can only be accomplished with a circumcised heart.

Since G-d demands it, shouldn't we understand what it means?

Yermiyahu 4:4. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord and remove the foreskins of your heart, O people of Judah and dwellers of Jerusalem, lest My anger go forth and burn with none to quench it because of the evil of your deeds.

So here are my questions:

Who performs the operation?

What tools are used?

When is it done?

Where is the location of the part that needs excised?

Why is it necessary?

How do you know when it has been circumcised?

[Semi-Sweet]

Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be
The pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make all our little joys relate
Without that ever-present hate but now I know that it’s too late,

and . . .That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The game of life is hard to play. I’m gonna lose it anyway.

The losing card I’ll someday lay so this is all I have to say.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The only way to win is cheat and lay it down before I’m beat,

and to another give my seat for that’s the only painless feat.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The sword of time will pierce our skins it doesn’t hurt when it begins

But as it works its way on in the pain grows stronger . . . watch it grin, but . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

A brave man once requested me to answer questions that are key
'Is it to be or not to be' and I replied 'oh why ask me?'
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.
And you can do the same thing if you choose.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goB4GbeltKc&feature=related

My mom has me hooked on M.A.S.H reruns. I had no idea what the words were of the theme. Thanks.

[Abe]

My mom has me hooked on M.A.S.H reruns. I had no idea what the words were of the theme. Thanks.It was sung in the original movie.

[Semi-Sweet]

It was sung in the original movie.

That explains it. I need to watch the movie. :cool:

[Abe]

That explains it. I need to watch the movie. :cool:You do. It's excellent. That's when you'll find out a number of ultra-important things. Things like why her nickname is "Hotlips"...

[Semi-Sweet]

You do. It's excellent. That's when you'll find out a number of ultra-important things. Things like why her nickname is "Hotlips"...

I am anxious to find out all that important stuff. When that women gets on a rant I wish someone would stuff a sock in her mouth. :D

[Poisonshady313]

If I understand PS and you correctly, you say it is the animal that defiles the man. If it is the animal that does it, why then am I not defiled? We don't say it... God says it. Refer to Leviticus 11.

Or is it as Y'shua was teaching, that the disobedience of the heart and not the animal, is what causes the defilement?

It sounds to me that God expected actual obedience... and Jesus taught theoretical obedience.

Feeling obedient isn't at all the same as actually being obedient.

As Shmuel said to Sha'ul, "To obey is better than sacrifice" or eating forbidden meat.:)

Abstaining from forbidden meat is part of what it means to be obedient.

It is better to follow God's law by abstaining from forbidden meat then to believe someone sacrificed himself on a cross so that you no longer have to obey God.

[Harmonious]

If I understand PS and you correctly, you say it is the animal that defiles the man. If it is the animal that does it, why then am I not defiled?Because the laws of Leviticus, particularly Chapter 11, refers to the laws given to JEWS.

I mean, if you feel the need to keep kosher, no one is stopping you. If you ask, we'll be more than happy to tell you how to go about it. But no one besides Jews have the commandment to do so.

We don't KNOW why God commanded Jews to keep kosher. It wasn't particularly health laws, as we know that people who don't live by them can live long and healthy lives. The reason we do it is that God commanded us to.

It isn't hard to do, though it can get expensive and work intensive. And it can be inconvenient, when the food that is required is unavailable. (Like for example... Today, we went shopping for meat. We had to go several counties south to buy it, because the stores locally don't carry kosher meat. Other kosher products, sure. But meat is harder to ensure is kosher, and it is more expensive to have in stock, especially if you are unsure of your market. As long as Jews live in Monsey, Spring Valley, New Square, and other neighboring towns, the stores in Rockland County, NY will always have a market.)

Or is it as Y'shua was teaching, that the disobedience of the heart and not the animal, is what causes the defilement?I just told you we don't know why God commanded Jews to keep kosher.

If you want to do it, though you have no obligation to do so, go for it.

But don't decide that Jews don't have to because Jesus made up a reason and said it wasn't important anymore.

Where does the defilement come from? It comes from doing what God commanded not to do, I would assume.

And since you are not a Jew, who was commanded to not eat non-kosher animals, eating them would not defile you, as your eating them would not go against a commandment of God.

As Shmuel said to Sha'ul, "To obey is better than sacrifice" or eating forbidden meat.:)Yup. So, if a store sold kosher meat sold it on Shabbat, Jews would be forbidden to buy that meat on Shabbat.

If Jews live too far away from shul to comfortably walk, it is better to hang out with a friend who lives closer to the shul and walk, or take the plunge and walk the longer distance than it is to drive to shul. (I KNOW there will be people who will disagree with me, but that is the Orthodox opinion on how to do things.)

But trying to figure out WHY God commanded something when no logical explanation is given can be emotionally satisfying, but ultimately irrelevant. The reason we do things is that God commanded us to.

Things like laws between fellow humans are logical, and are easy enough to figure out why as well as how. Things like Kosher, and Kilayim (planting two seeds of different species in the same hole), Sha'atnez (wearing one garment made of both wool and linen) and Egla Arufa (really complicated, but involves a red heifer), and things of that nature are not at ALL logical, by human standards. They are just "because God said so" type things.

So, assigning human logic to them, and then deciding that the human logical reason is no longer valid doesn't change the prime directive God gave the Jews to start with.

I could guess that one reason is that God wanted to make it more difficult for Jews and non-Jews to socialize, by making this differentiation in God-commanded diet.

I could guess that one reason is to test our sense of discipline. (Think Van Halen and the brown M&Ms.)

I could guess that one reason is that there is something inherently wrong with the animals that God forbade us. (Pigs look kosher on the outside, as they have cloven hooves, but they are not kosher on the inside, as they don't chew their cud, and so we can homiletically learn something about the pig's hypocrisy, but then again, it is only an animal.)

We can guess all kinds of reasons. Some may be more logical than others. But in the end, the only answer we have is that God commanded the Jews one thing, and He commanded non-Jews something else. We don't know why. But that is what He did.

[Harmonious]

Please allow me to indulge a little longer on this topic.Oy. :doh: Must we?
The reason being is Y'shua made this the central theme of his understanding of the Tanach. Literally the heart of the Law and the Prophets.You lost me right there. I really don't CARE why Jesus made anything central to his understanding. He decided to go with some commandments, and ignore others.

But I'll read along, and see what you have to say.

That "You shall love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, soul, mind and strength,"
and that this can only be accomplished with a circumcised heart.

Since G-d demands it, shouldn't we understand what it means?Not really. Any understanding of this requires exegesis, and we will never agree on what that means.

I can readily come up with what it means when we say "all your heart, all your soul, and all your very-ness." That is a more accurate translation. I could say, your heart means your body, your soul means your emotions (to the extent you control them), and your very-ness means your wealth and other physical resources. That is what I would say.

But I can't prove it, without exegesis, which you can either accept or reject. I'm willing to bet that you would reject my exegesis as much as I already reject yours.

Yermiyahu 4:4. Circumcise yourselves to the Lord and remove the foreskins of your heart, O people of Judah and dwellers of Jerusalem, lest My anger go forth and burn with none to quench it because of the evil of your deeds.

So here are my questions:

Who performs the operation?

What tools are used?

When is it done?

Where is the location of the part that needs excised?

Why is it necessary?

How do you know when it has been circumcised?
I would say you are taking a metaphor FAR too literally.

But then again, you would need exegesis to explain this fully, and I know you won't believe what I have to say.

[Abe]

As Shmuel said to Sha'ul...Why are you acknowledging the "Alef" (א) in Sha'ul, (שאול), but not in Shemu'el, (שמואל)?

[Stantz]

Why are you acknowledging the "Alef" (א) in Sha'ul, (שאול), but not in Shemu'el, (שמואל)?

In Israel it would be shmoolik anyway

[Abe]

Yermiyahu It's Yirmiyahu (יִרְמְיָהוּ)!

[Abe]

In Israel it would be shmoolik anywayאמת, (Truth)! :))

[Harmonious]

It's Yirmiyahu (יִרְמְיָהוּ)!
Even I would do that, on my own. (I once dated a Yirmiyahu.)

See, Abe, I don't get it ALL wrong. ;)

[Jacob_Rising]

אמת, (Truth)! :))The scales looking at the House and weighing it's inhabitants, and the door is closed but then the door is opened and the smoke comes out on you whereas it went back to heaven before.

Intersting word.

Right to left.

[Abe]

Even I would do that, on my own. (I once dated a Yirmiyahu.)

See, Abe, I don't get it ALL wrong. ;)Honeychile', you hardly ever get anything wrong! :hug:

So tell us about this Yirmiyahu. Was he cute?

[Abe]

The scales looking at the House and weighing it's inhabitants, and the door is closed but then the door is opened and the smoke comes out on you whereas it went back to heaven before.

Intersting word.

Right to left.

What does that mean in English? :)

BTW, all words in Hebrew go R to L. :)

[Jacob_Rising]

What does that mean in English? :)

BTW, all words in Hebrew go R to L. :)It means that every single time that you use the word, '' Truth'' in your secret messages of yours, '' I will never forget how to write this word again in my life because I made a story of it.

Give me another solid word like that whether good or bad and don't tell me the meaning and I'll write a story and then you tell me what the word means and I won't forget how to write it either.

[Mimiheart]

It means that every single time that you use the word, '' Truth'' in your secret messages of yours, '' I will never forget how to write this word again in my life because I made a story of it.

Give me another solid word like that whether good or bad and don't tell me the meaning and I'll write a story and then you tell me what the word means and I won't forget how to write it either.
Um... How about this one... אױ

[Abe]

it means that every single time that you use the word, '' truth'' in your secret messages of yours, '' i will never forget how to write this word again in my life because i made a story of it.

Give me another solid word like that whether good or bad and don't tell me the meaning and i'll write a story and then you tell me what the word means and i won't forget how to write it either.צדק

[Abe]

Um... How about this one... אױShhh :shhh:, that's our secret codeword.

[Mimiheart]

Shhh :shhh:, that's our secret codeword.
But I like it... and it's so appropriate in so many situations.

[Jacob_Rising]

Even I would do that, on my own. (I once dated a Yirmiyahu.)

See, Abe, I don't get it ALL wrong. ;)This one has 3 7's on it.

15,777th.

It's like magic in the air.

[hben]

Shhh :shhh:, that's our secret codeword.

Boy was I wrong. All this time I thought the secret codeword was "Kosher Dill Pickles". :doh:

[Jacob_Rising]

Um... How about this one... אױEphraim stands on top of Judah until they decide to balance each other out and they both become one, and little Benjamin is found from the Both of them.

[Harmonious]

Honeychile', you hardly ever get anything wrong! :hug::hug:

So tell us about this Yirmiyahu. Was he cute?Very. He is an interesting fellow. He converted to Judaism, and decided to become Sephardic. He actually encouraged me to get more in touch with that part of my heritage. He is brilliant, he works with the developmentally disabled, and he has wonderfully entertaining hobbies.

To this day, I'm not sure why it didn't work, but he promised me that it wasn't my fault. I still like him, and when we meet each other in Queens, we still have wonderful conversations. But he is not mine anymore. :(

[Abe]

Boy was I wrong. All this time I thought the secret codeword was "Kosher Dill Pickles". :doh:That's the decoy...:)

[Abe]

:hug:

Very. He is an interesting fellow. He converted to Judaism, and decided to become Sephardic. He actually encouraged me to get more in touch with that part of my heritage. He is brilliant, he works with the developmentally disabled, and he has wonderfully entertaining hobbies.

To this day, I'm not sure why it didn't work, but he promised me that it wasn't my fault. I still like him, and when we meet each other in Queens, we still have wonderful conversations. But he is not mine anymore. :(The Sepharadic culture is fascinating. I love it. There's a lot to be learned there.

Avram Avinu
Padre qerido
Padre bendico
Luz de Israel

[Jacob_Rising]

צדקSure I know what that is, It's a Coffee maker.

[Harmonious]

The Sepharadic culture is fascinating. I love it. There's a lot to be learned there.

Avram Avinu
Padre qerido
Padre bendico
Luz de Israel

It's my favorite song in Ladino. I should sing it for you sometime.

[Marquus]

But don't decide that Jews don't have to because Jesus made up a reason and said it wasn't important anymore.

Y'shua never said it was unimportant.

Where does the defilement come from? It comes from doing what God commanded not to do, I would assume. And since you are not a Jew, who was commanded to not eat non-kosher animals, eating them would not defile you, as your eating them would not go against a commandment of God.

That's what Y'shua was saying, it's disobedience to G-d's law. It proceeds from the heart.

If Jews live too far away from shul to comfortably walk, it is better to hang out with a friend who lives closer to the shul and walk, or take the plunge and walk the longer distance than it is to drive to shul. (I KNOW there will be people who will disagree with me, but that is the Orthodox opinion on how to do things.)

My brother-in-law as a police officer works for an orthodox shul and he tells me how a lot of them drive their vehicles to a parking lot near shul and then walk.

Or the Rabbi would ask him to follow him to the office and then say, "It sure is dark in here," or "It sure is cold or hot in here," depending on the weather outside, of course.

I could guess that one reason is that God wanted to make it more difficult for Jews and non-Jews to socialize, by making this differentiation in God-commanded diet.

Whatever the reason, I believe it was given as a test just as Adam and Eve were commanded to not eat of the fruit to see if you trust Him.

[Marquus]

Why are you acknowledging the "Alef" (א) in Sha'ul, (שאול), but not in Shemu'el, (שמואל)?

It's my idiomorphing idiogram!:dance:

Just make sure you orthoepy; don't cacoepy.:lol:

[Jacob_Rising]

Y'shua never said it was unimportant.


Yes he did, Many times in many places.

You must be thinking about somebody else.

You should get more Familiar wiith Jesus word if you are going to make statements about what he said, Because you are wrong here.

[Marquus]

Yes he did, Many times in many places.

You must be thinking about somebody else.

You should get more Familiar wiith Jesus word if you are going to make statements about what he said, Because you are wrong here.

Uh, where?

[Marquus]

Sure I know what that is, It's a Coffee maker.

Tsedek; it's a box with a slit on top.

[Jacob_Rising]

A where?I guess I should apologize to you because I'm nice to everyone but you.

You use the words of a Messianic like saying,'' Yeshuah'' and you do seem interested in the law and at the same time you say things like you said.

A Messianic is a person who comes with great respect for the Law of Moses who recognizes the need and demand for the Jews to keep the law.

I have seen real smart preachers who have church on Sunday but offer their church up to Jews or Messianics to use on the Sabbath.

Any book with red letters I'll show you Jesus showing the difference in those who Keep the Commandments and who don't, Throw in Revelations, Acts, 1st John, 2cnd John,Galations, and probably all the books.

Here is one from Mathew 7:23 '' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from me, You who practice Lawlessness.

Mathew 5;17 ''Do not think I have come to destroy the law and the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

''For assuredly, I say to you, Till heaven and Earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

''Whoever therefore breaks the least Of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.''

Revelation 14:12{The resurrected immortals} '' Here is the patience of the Saints; Here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.

Revelation22:14 Blessed are those who do Keep his commandments, That they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates of the city.

The gates are named by the 12 tribes of Israel, to enter them is to enter under a tribe.

1st John 5:3 For this is the Love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

There are so many scriptures like this.

So do gentiles have to keep the commandments?

No it's a choice but what is needed is gentiles supporting the Jews in keeping God's heritage.

To help bring repect back to the Torah is to bring love back to Israel and in doing so would be gathering a reward, and thus it doesn't matter if you keep them or not.

It matters what you teach other men, If you teach men to not keep the commanments,You show disrespect for the duty of Jews. Look at Mathew 5:17 and all of Jesus words because he spoke of great reward in keeping them.

[Jacob_Rising]

Antiochus Epiphanies came up and told the Jews,'' Why should you follow this measly God who is unknown and his law when we have a Pantheon of Great gods to follow.

'' Why should you keep these stupid sacrificial laws with lambs when the Swine is king among the beasts?''

He built a Gymnasium and tempted the people with nakedness and unlawfulness and some were even willing.

But the Heros of God came against them and God was on their side and we have the Miracle of Lights
It has always been the Job of the enemy of Israel to get them to abandon their righteous laws.

[Marquus]

Oy. :doh: Must we?

(sigh) Ye'us.:)

You lost me right there. I really don't CARE why Jesus made anything central to his understanding. He decided to go with some commandments, and ignore others.

A little nonplussed. You say He ignored, and I say He loosed.

Not really. Any understanding of this requires exegesis, and we will never agree on what that means.

You take some things passionately, such as dietary laws, yet on the more weightier things, such as a circumcised heart, you seem insouciant.

But I can't prove it, without exegesis, which you can either accept or reject. I'm willing to bet that you would reject my exegesis as much as I already reject yours.

Are you sure it isn't eisogesis? Just being facetious.

I would say you are taking a metaphor FAR too literally.

Actually, I'd call it esoteric.

But then again, you would need exegesis to explain this fully, and I know you won't believe what I have to say.

Hey we're friends, right? At least I thought we were. And I'll love you no matter what you say, because I know it's from your heart.:hug:

[Marquus]

I guess I should apologize to you because I'm nice to everyone but you.

You use the words of a Messianic like saying,'' Yeshuah'' and you do seem interested in the law and at the same time you say things like you said.

A Messianic is a person who comes with great respect for the Law of Moses who recognizes the need and demand for the Jews to keep the law.

I have seen real smart preachers who have church on Sunday but offer their church up to Jews or Messianics to use on the Sabbath.

Any book with red letters I'll show you Jesus showing the difference in those who Keep the Commandments and who don't, Throw in Revelations, Acts, 1st John, 2cnd John,Galations, and probably all the books.

Here is one from Mathew 7:23 '' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; Depart from me, You who practice Lawlessness.

Mathew 5;17 ''Do not think I have come to destroy the law and the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

''For assuredly, I say to you, Till heaven and Earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

''Whoever therefore breaks the least Of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.''

Revelation 14:12{The resurrected immortals} '' Here is the patience of the Saints; Here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.

Revelation22:14 Blessed are those who do Keep his commandments, That they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates of the city.

The gates are named by the 12 tribes of Israel, to enter them is to enter under a tribe.

1st John 5:3 For this is the Love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

There are so many scriptures like this.

So do gentiles have to keep the commandments?

No it's a choice but what is needed is gentiles supporting the Jews in keeping God's heritage.

To help bring repect back to the Torah is to bring love back to Israel and in doing so would be gathering a reward, and thus it doesn't matter if you keep them or not.

It matters what you teach other men, If you teach men to not keep the commanments,You show disrespect for the duty of Jews. Look at Mathew 5:17 and all of Jesus words because he spoke of great reward in keeping them.

I worship at Beit Mashiach. My Rabbi is the president of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. Before he accepted Y'shua he was a practicing orthodox Jew who walked to shul every Shabbat and has known and spoken Hebrew since a child. We help Jews throughout the world with food and clothing, regardless of what they believe about Y'shua.

We have many Messianics from around the world come and speak at our synagogue. One who even helped in the formation of Yisrael at its inception, even though he was Messianic at the time, and was heart broken when they were not permitted aliyah and he did not live to see its fulfillment.

My Granddaughter (six years old) loves going to synagogue and asks me all the time, "Sabba, are we going to synagogue today?"

And I say, "Not today Nechdah, on Shabbat."

Gdaughter, "How much longer."

Then I tell her how long.

Then she'll ask, "Can I carry the Torah?"

And I say, "We'll have to see honey."

The thing she loves best is carrying the little Torah Scroll around the santuary behind our Rabbi. She's all smilles and really hugs that scroll.

She looks at me and smiles; and I smile back.

[Jacob_Rising]

I worship at Beit Mashiach. My Rabbi is the president of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. Before he accepted Y'shua he was a practicing orthodox Jew who walked to shul every Shabbat and has known and spoken Hebrew since a child. We help Jews throughout the world with food and clothing, regardless of what they believe about Y'shua.

We have many Messianics from around the world come and speak at our synagogue. One who even helped in the formation of Yisrael at its inception, even though he was Messianic at the time, and was heart broken when they were not permitted aliyah and he did not live to see its fulfillment.

My Granddaughter (six years old) loves going to synagogue and asks me all the time, "Sabba, are we going to synagogue today?"

And I say, "Not today Nechdah, on Shabbat."

Gdaughter, "How much longer."

Then I tell her how long.

Then she'll ask, "Can I carry the Torah?"

And I say, "We'll have to see honey."

The thing she loves best is carrying the little Torah Scroll around the santuary behind our Rabbi. She's all smilles and really hugs that scroll.

She looks at me and smiles; and I smile back.Do you believe that God wants Jews to Follow the Law?

[Marquus]

Do you believe that God wants Jews to Follow the Law?

Out of love, just as I would do what my wife wants out of love, not wiifm.

Out of wiifm leads to selfishness and ultimately dreariness, while out of love leads to selflessness and ultimately vitality.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Out of love, just as I would do what my wife wants out of love, not wiifm.

Out of wiifm leads to selfishness and ultimately dreariness, while out of love leads to selflessness and ultimately vitality.


So you are saying that intent is more important than results? What if someone causes evil to befall another person, but their intent was good? Is all well with God then?

[Harmonious]

My brother-in-law as a police officer works for an orthodox shul and he tells me how a lot of them drive their vehicles to a parking lot near shul and then walk.Just because some people do it doesn't mean they are supposed to.

That happens in my shul in Poughkeepsie. It is an Orthodox shul, but I am one of the few people who are ACTUALLY Orthodox. Or rather, we are all Orthodox, but I am one of the few Orthopraxis.

Or the Rabbi would ask him to follow him to the office and then say, "It sure is dark in here," or "It sure is cold or hot in here," depending on the weather outside, of course.
Yeah, about that. "Shabbos Goys" (getting a non-Jew to do something otherwise forbidden to Jews on Shabbat) is a concept that is not permissible, as we aren't allowed to have someone else do something we can't do ourselves.

Just because people do it doesn't mean that they SHOULD.

Whatever the reason, I believe it was given as a test just as Adam and Eve were commanded to not eat of the fruit to see if you trust Him.
You are free to believe what you wish.

[Jacob_Rising]

Out of love, just as I would do what my wife wants out of love, not wiifm.

Out of wiifm leads to selfishness and ultimately dreariness, while out of love leads to selflessness and ultimately vitality.I do not know what this means.

The Jews are suppose to follow the law.

Do you know that Stephen was stoned because Liars were paid to lie about him?

They lied and said that Stephen was teaching Jews to abandon the Law.

People also lied and Told Rumors about Paul saying,'' Paul teaches the Jews not to Follow the law''

Paul went out of his way to prove these people wrong and he personaly showed them that he was a Jew and he kept the Law because it is the duty for a Jew to keep the Law.

Acts 21:24 '' Take them and purify BE PURIFIED with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. AND THAT ALL MAY KNOW THAT THOSE THINGS[LIES] OF WHICH THEY WERE INFORMED OF YOU{PAUL} ARE NOTHING, BUT THAT YOU YOURSELF ALSO WALK ORDERLY AND KEEP THE LAW.

The Choice was made that Gentiles didn't have to keep all the Laws but the Jews have to keep it and this is why they had a council meeting to decide whether gentiles had to keep the law.

They allready knew the Jews had to keep ALL the Law but they had to decide if the Gentiles had to keep the law.

If you say Jesus taught anyone not to keep the Law then you are trying to prove that Jesus was not the Messiah.

When you give these Jews Jesus name and try to debate them about the law it's like a student coming to the Teachers and trying to debate what they are born into.

The Law cannot be seperated from the Language because the language is wrapped up in the law.

If you wanted to become a Samuri, But you didn't know the language or the culture, How would you Debate with the masters?

If you want to debate what defiles a man, You can't take one scripture of Jesus and debate the Jews with it unless you were born in a family that keeps the law, unless you know Hebrew and have a good working sense of what all the laws of defilement are.

To use Jesus words to debate them on one point of the law is very insulting to the Jews in here.

We are just lucky that we have teachers of the law in this forum and that is what they are, You and I are students.

If you want to learn then learn but a student cannot debate with people who's culture goes back thousands of years.

Their people have been studying the law for thousands of years and they have rescouces that you wouldn't believe.

You don't realize how in depth the law is, and how intertwined it is with the language.

[NehemiahT]

That's like saying...
Yeah right, Abe:rolleyes:.

In Genesis 1:26-28, we find, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

But first, let's take a look at some verses backward, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)"
First and foremost, we know this to have taken place in the realm of "time", because we're told "In the beginning (of time)"; THE PERFECT GOD Creates the Heaven and the Earth (aka The Universe).
But in Genesis 1:2a, we see a cataclysmic occurrence, "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." GOD, WHO "is not the author of confusion (1Cor. 14:33)"; GOD, WHO "is Light, and in HIM is no darkness at all (1John 1:5)", has, on HIS Hands, an earth that is "without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."
This leads to the question, What happened to cause the aforementioned cataclysmic occurrence?

Answer: First from JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Luke 10:18)";

and then from Isaiah 14:12-15, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

And the latter, came about as a result of, "Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (Ezekiel 28:12-19)"

Lucifer's attempted coup d'etat was met with abject failure; he, along with the angelic host that he persuaded to follow him in his attempt, was tossed out of Heaven, back to Planet Earth. . .and even down below, into the pit of it.

So then, what we have in Genesis 1:26-28, are replacement Creatures (mankind/adam) for the angels who chose to follow Lucifer/now Satan. And what we have in Genesis 2:7-9,15-25, is the replacement for Lucifer/now Satan, the person we know as Adam (of the Garden of Eden).

Cain's wife turns out to be either one of "the daughters of men (Gen. 6:2,4)", or one of their descendants. . .but most definitely not his sister, his niece, cousin, etc.

As for "the sons of GOD (Gen. 6:2,4;Job 1:6;2:1;38:7)", these were just as Adam (of the Garden of Eden), created beings with no earthly biological fathers.

[Mikko]

Yeah right, Abe:rolleyes:.

In Genesis 1:26-28, we find, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

Prove, from the scripture (and notice that I'm not shouting, which is really poor cyber-ettiquette), that the "them" in the verses quoted above refers to more than two people. A nice, thorough read of Gen. two makes it very clear that God created only Adam and Eve first, then they had young'uns, and that's it, until, lo and behold, mention is made of their sons' having wives with absolutely no explanation as to where they came from. What's a mother to do? :)

[Mikko]

That's like saying, "Prove to me from the Scripture that Saul didn't kill 50 people from Beit Yayin". Since Beit Yayin (House of Wine) is nowhere to be found anywhere in 1 Samuel, (or anywhere else in the Tanakh, for that matter), it cannot be proven. Do you therefore conclude that Saul did kill those people?
Ouch!! My ears are hurting. :)

[NehemiahT]

Prove, from the scripture (and notice that I'm not shouting, which is really poor cyber-ettiquette), that the "them" in the verses quoted above refers to more than two people. A nice, thorough read of Gen. two makes it very clear that God created only Adam and Eve first, then they had young'uns, and that's it, until, lo and behold, mention is made of their sons' having wives with absolutely no explanation as to where they came from. What's a mother to do? :)

You could shout till the cows come home, but it won't change what the Scripture clearly tell us. . .as opposed to what tradition, and only tradition, has.

In Genesis 1:22, we read, "And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth."
This seems to happen in Chapter 1, with no one attempting to convince anyone that that, "God blessed them", but HE didn't do so until, Chapter 2.
But maybe, you like so many others believe that GOD, and/or Moses, just didn't know the difference between "them", and Adam.
So then, if this "them", here in 1:26-28, then just when did GOD "bless" Adam and Eve in Chapter 2. . .before or after the operation on Adam???

BTW, GOD tells them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth. (1:28)";

and then HE puts Adam in the Garden of Eden, SPECIFICALLY to ". . .to dress it and to keep it. (2:15)":rolleyes::think::eh:

[Mikko]

You could shout till the cows come home, but it won't change what the Scripture clearly tell us. . .as opposed to what tradition, and only tradition, has.

In Genesis 1:22, we read, "And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth."
This seems to happen in Chapter 1, with no one attempting to convince anyone that that, "God blessed them", but HE didn't do so until, Chapter 2.
But maybe, you like so many others believe that GOD, and/or Moses, just didn't know the difference between "them", and Adam.
So then, if this "them", here in 1:26-28, then just when did GOD "bless" Adam and Eve in Chapter 2. . .before or after the operation on Adam???

BTW, GOD tells them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moves upon the earth. (1:28)";

and then HE puts Adam in the Garden of Eden, SPECIFICALLY to ". . .to dress it and to keep it. (2:15)":rolleyes::think::eh:
As I said, and I wasn't shouting (you were), there is not one shred of evidence in scripture that the "them" refers to more than two people. And taking Gen. two into the mix, it is clear that, according to scripture, God made only Adam and Eve in the beginning, nary another solitary soul. :)

[NehemiahT]

. . .there is not one shred of evidence in scripture that the "them" refers to more than two people. And taking Gen. two into the mix, it is clear that, according to scripture, God made only Adam and Eve in the beginning, nary another solitary soul. :)

That being your opinion, alone, where is your "one shred of evidence in scripture that the 'them' refers to" only Adam (of the Garden of Eden), and Eve?

So then, what is "clear" is that you're only basing your assumptions on "Traditions". . .and "nary another solitary" proof, do you have.

[TaylorW65]

That being your opinion, alone, where is your "one shred of evidence in scripture that the 'them' refers to" only Adam (of the Garden of Eden), and Eve?

So then, what is "clear" is that you're only basing your assumptions on "Traditions". . .and "nary another solitary" proof, do you have.

Not tradition. "Them" is ambiguous. It could mean two it could mean three, four or 1,000 people. The Bible doesn't specific about who "them" is.

[NehemiahT]

Not tradition. "Them" is ambiguous. It could mean two it could mean three, four or 1,000 people. The Bible doesn't specific about who "them" is.

Part of my point exactly; However, "them" is not as ambiguous as you're attempting to portray it to be. . .especially when it it used in its proper context, and refers to only what it refers to at the time that it references what it does (see my last statement below).

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, (1:14-17)";

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. (1:20-22)";

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. (2:1)";

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. (2:19)"

Now, it is more than interesting that Adam and Eve, aren't referred to as "them", any where in Chapter 2; and the first time they're specifically referred to as "them" (in Chapter 3), it is accompanied by the word, "both" (3:7).

[Abe]

It's my favorite song in Ladino. I should sing it for you sometime.I've always loved it. I used to go to every Moroccan Brit Milah that I could, just to hear it.

I sing it too, but, for some reason, nobody enjoys it when I sing it. :((

[Abe]

Tsedek; it's a box with a slit on top.You're confusing Tzedeq, צדק, (Righteousness), with Tzedaqa, צדקה, (Charity). Moreover, Charity is not a box with a slit on top, anymore than "Public Transportation" is a metal pole with a sign on it.

[Jacob_Rising]

You're confusing Tzedeq, צדק, (Righteousness), with Tzedaqa, צדקה, (Charity). Moreover, Charity is not a box with a slit on top, anymore than "Public Transportation" is a metal pole with a sign on it.Can you tell me what this means?

God R U cgn I yla?

[Abe]

Yeah right, Abe:rolleyes:.

In Genesis 1... Friend,

This is what I mean by "Language". Genesis does not say, "In the beginning..."; it says, "When God first began to create...".

It doesn't say, "The sons of God"; it says, "The sons of the mighty (the powerful people).

Your quote from Isaiah is also confused. Lucifer is a poor attempt tp translate the Hebrew word "Heylel", הֵילֵל. "Heylel Ben Shahar" is a pun; a very clever one that has nothing to do with Satan. There are many other mistranslations in your quotes. I have neither energy nor willingness to address them, one by one, right now. I've addressed most of them in past threads.

The Tanakh has been mistranslated and misinterpreted.

[Abe]

Can you tell me what this means?

God R U cgn I yla?This must be a New Hebrew.

[Abe]

Ouch!! My ears are hurting. :)I'm sorry, Mikko. Please forgive me!:((

[Jacob_Rising]

This must be a New Hebrew.

Aint you ever had a Cur dog steal your bisquits off the Table when you wasn't looking and then act like he didn't do it?

Most dogs let their eyes give them away but a Cur is cunning because he just don't care.

[NehemiahT]

Friend,
This is what I mean by "Language". Genesis does not say, "In the beginning..."; it says, "When God first began to create...".And that's what I meant by me wanting to read, and/or peruse, some of your published works. You seem to be very long on translations and/or mistranslations, yet at the same time, very short on contextual understanding, not to mention verifying Scriptures with Scripture.

By your reasoning, shall we also change the phrase, "in the beginning", in the following passages: Jdg 7:19; Rth 1:22; 2Sa 21:9; Ezr 4:6; Pro 8:22; Jer 26:1;27:1;28:1;49:34; Lam 2:19; Eze 40:1; Amo 7:1???

And those are just the ones found in the Tanakh.

It doesn't say, "The sons of God"; it says, "The sons of the mighty (the powerful people)..
According to Luke 3:38, Adam (of the Garden of Eden) is called, "the son of God".

Your quote from Isaiah is also confused. Lucifer is a poor attempt tp translate the Hebrew word "Heylel", הֵילֵל. "Heylel Ben Shahar" is a pun; a very clever one that has nothing to do with Satan.Then just who is the "Satan", that comes among "the sons of GOD", in the book of Job?

There are many other mistranslations in your quotes. I have neither energy nor willingness to address them, one by one, right now. I've addressed most of them in past threads.And therein may be your problem. What you've address in "past threads", may be just as wrong as you're attempting to make me out to be here and now.

The Tanakh has been mistranslated and misinterpreted.
Fine! Then point it out, and THEN see if it fits ALL [SCRIPTURE] of THE WORD of GOD, without the slightest iota of any Contradictions.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Originally Posted by Abe
It was sung in the original movie.



That explains it. I need to watch the movie. :cool:

Something else about it, the song "Suicide is Painless" was sung to the character "Painless Pole" when he thought he was committing suicide.

[Koushi Shinigami]

And that's what I meant by me wanting to read, and/or peruse, some of your published works. You seem to be very long on translations and/or mistranslations, yet at the same time, very short on contextual understanding, not to mention verifying Scriptures with Scripture.

By your reasoning, shall we also change the phrase, "in the beginning", in the following passages: Jdg 7:19; Rth 1:22; 2Sa 21:9; Ezr 4:6; Pro 8:22; Jer 26:1;27:1;28:1;49:34; Lam 2:19; Eze 40:1; Amo 7:1???

And those are just the ones found in the Tanakh.

.
According to Luke 3:38, Adam (of the Garden of Eden) is called, "the son of God".

Then just who is the "Satan", that comes among "the sons of GOD", in the book of Job?

And therein may be your problem. What you've address in "past threads", may be just as wrong as you're attempting to make me out to be here and now.


Fine! Then point it out, and THEN see if it fits ALL [SCRIPTURE] of THE WORD of GOD, without the slightest iota of any Contradictions.


I find this post to be highly entertaining. On several levels.


According to Luke <snip>

If I were in Abe's position the response would be "So what?". But he is much too polite for such an exchange.



Fine! Then point it out, and THEN see if it fits ALL [SCRIPTURE] of THE WORD of GOD,



I'm certain Abe uses ALL[SCRIPTURE] of THE WORD of GOD.....

Genesis through Chronicles.

Question for you NehemiahT. Do you use the Book of Mormon as part of your complete Word of God?
Why or why not?

Reading exchanges like this, makes Judiaism seem much more attractive than evangelical Christianity. Please, keep going NehemiahT. :clap:

[Lie Sniper]

I find this post to be highly entertaining. On several levels.




If I were in Abe's position the response would be "So what?". But he is much too polite for such an exchange.





I'm certain Abe uses ALL[SCRIPTURE] of THE WORD of GOD.....

Genesis through Chronicles.

Question for you NehemiahT. Do you use the Book of Mormon as part of your complete Word of God?
Why or why not?

Reading exchanges like this, makes Judiaism seem much more attractive than evangelical Christianity. Please, keep going NehemiahT. :clap:

If I trust all of Abe's translations though, it has me saying to myself WTH? What parts of the bible are correct translations? Is any of the scripture I believe and has meaning to me even correct?

I respect Abe and his knowledge, but wow, that's a hard pill to swallow.:frown:

[Koushi Shinigami]

If I trust all of Abe's translations though, it has me saying to myself WTH? What parts of the bible are correct translations? Is any of the scripture I believe and has meaning to me even correct?

I respect Abe and his knowledge, but wow, that's a hard pill to swallow.:frown:


I can understand that. It's the biggest reason people fight so hard to hold on to their beliefs rather than to continually examine them.

[Meriweather]

If I trust all of Abe's translations though, it has me saying to myself WTH? What parts of the bible are correct translations? Is any of the scripture I believe and has meaning to me even correct?

I respect Abe and his knowledge, but wow, that's a hard pill to swallow.:frown:

My Bible of choice these past fifteen years or so is the New American Bible. That translation (and/or footnotes) and Abe seldom disagree. The New American Bible, or at least The Catholic Study version, has the note about Lucifer, for example.

[Koushi Shinigami]

My Bible of choice these past fifteen years or so is the New American Bible. That translation (and/or footnotes) and Abe seldom disagree. The New American Bible, or at least The Catholic Study version, has the note about Lucifer, for example.

A Catholic that uses a BIBLE??????? :eek: Unpossible!!!!! :evil:






;) :hug:

[Meriweather]

A Catholic that uses a BIBLE??????? :eek: Unpossible!!!!! :evil:


;) :hug:

Yes. I was always mystified by some believing Catholics don't read the Bible. My mother and grandmother did regularly.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Yes. I was always mystified by some believing Catholics don't read the Bible. My mother and grandmother did regularly.

PSHAWWWW!!! Everyone knows the Bible has been outlawded by the wholly c and you can be Xcomunoconcantonated for owning one. :eek:





;)

[Meriweather]

PSHAWWWW!!! Everyone knows the Bible has been outlawded by the wholly c and you can be Xcomunoconcantonated for owning one. :eek:





;)

In that case my grandmother's Bible must have really belonged to my atheist grandfather; and my mom's bible was more than likely a Bible my dad had kept from his Protestant days.

[Koushi Shinigami]

In that case my grandmother's Bible must have really belonged to my atheist grandfather; and my mom's bible was more than likely a Bible my dad had kept from his Protestant days.

Could be.... Reminds me of something I once heard G Gordon Liddy say: "As a convicted fellon, I am not allowed to own a hand gun. MRS Liddy, however, owns SEVERAL!"


Ya know, reading the conversations on this board, I'm sometimes struck by the similarities between Judiasm and Catholicism. Makes one wonder, is the Christian religion that's closest in practices and doctrines to Judiasm, the first one to have split from Judiasm? :think:

[Meriweather]

Could be.... Reminds me of something I once heard G Gordon Liddy say: "As a convicted fellon, I am not allowed to own a hand gun. MRS Liddy, however, owns SEVERAL!"


Ya know, reading the conversations on this board, I'm sometimes struck by the similarities between Judiasm and Catholicism. Makes one wonder, is the Christian religion that's closest in practices and doctrines to Judiasm, the first one to have split from Judiasm? :think:

In an open survey, without determining the religion the responder was, it was asked, "How close is X religon to your religion?

Whatever their combined religions were, 43% saw Catholicism as similar to their own religion; 43% saw Protestants as similar to their own religion. When asked about Judaism, 35% saw similarities; the similarities seen in Mormonism (surprising to me) dropped to 21%; and Islam was 16%. The similarities were listed as 13% for Buddhism and 12% for Hindu.

It might be interesting to start a few threads where we discuss similarities between two relgions.

[Poisonshady313]

In an open survey, without determining the religion the responder was, it was asked, "How close is X religon to your religion?

Whatever their combined religions were, 43% saw Catholicism as similar to their own religion; 43% saw Protestants as similar to their own religion. When asked about Judaism, 35% saw similarities; the similarities seen in Mormonism (surprising to me) dropped to 21%; and Islam was 16%. The similarities were listed as 13% for Buddhism and 12% for Hindu.

It might be interesting to start a few threads where we discuss similarities between two relgions.

What about those online quizzes? They ask a bunch of questions, and based on your answers it tells you which religion you most likely belong to... and i guess the 2nd or 3rd items on the list are an indication of which faith is similar to your own.

[Meriweather]

What about those online quizzes? They ask a bunch of questions, and based on your answers it tells you which religion you most likely belong to... and i guess the 2nd or 3rd items on the list are an indication of which faith is similar to your own.

I see religion as belief and love of God, an eagerness to learn and to follow the will of God; and along with it, the willingness to love one's fellowman. This I see as true religion.

The better question might be, "Which religious discipline do you follow?"

Koushi was wondering about the similarities between Catholicism and Judaism. Thinking it over I would say the religions are indeed close--but the disciplines may be as far away as one can get.

[Abe]

And that's what I meant by me wanting to read, and/or peruse, some of your published works. You seem to be very long on translations and/or mistranslations, yet at the same time, very short on contextual understanding, not to mention verifying Scriptures with Scripture.

By your reasoning, shall we also change the phrase, "in the beginning", in the following passages: Jdg 7:19; Rth 1:22; 2Sa 21:9; Ezr 4:6; Pro 8:22; Jer 26:1;27:1;28:1;49:34; Lam 2:19; Eze 40:1; Amo 7:1??? Judges 7:19 רֹאשׁ הָאַשְׁמֹרֶת הַתִּיכוֹנָה The start (lit. Head), of the middle watch.

Ruth 1:22 בִּתְחִלַּת, קְצִיר שְׂעֹרִים. At the beginning of the barley harvest.

2Samuel 21:9 בִּתְחִלַּת קְצִיר שְׂעֹרִים At the beginning of the barley harvest.

Ezra 4:6 בִּתְחִלַּת, מַלְכוּתוֹ At the beginning of his reign.

Proverbs 8:22 רֵאשִׁית דַּרְכּוֹ As the beginning of His way.

Jeremiah 26:1; 27:1 בְּרֵאשִׁית, מַמְלְכוּת יְהוֹיָקִים בֶּן-יֹאשִׁיָּהוּ--מֶלֶךְ יְהוּדָה At the beginning of the reign of Yehoyakim son of Yoshiyahu, King of Judah.

Jeremiah 28:1; 49:34 בְּרֵאשִׁית מַמְלֶכֶת צִדְקִיָּה מֶלֶךְ-יְהוּדָה At the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah, King of Judah.

Lamentations 2:19 לְרֹאשׁ אַשְׁמֻרוֹת At the beginning (lit. Head), of the watches.

Ezekiel 40:1 בְּרֹאשׁ הַשָּׁנָה At the beginning (lit. Head), of the year.

Amos 7:1 בִּתְחִלַּת עֲלוֹת הַלָּקֶשׁ At the beginning of the sprouting of the aftergrowth of the late season.

They use a number of words to say Start and Beginning. None use “Bere****” followed by a verb, as in Genesis 1:1. Translation, as I keep saying, is a tricky business. A word in language ‘A’ does not equal the same word each and every time in language ‘B’. There’s context to consider, as well as that pesky thing called grammar.

For example, the letter Waw (ו), at the beginning of a word can denote: “And” or “changed Aspect”. It could also be an integral part of the word and/or root. Only context and/or grammar can tell you which it is.

The letter Hey (ה), at the beginning of a word could mean the definite article, a question or neither. It could just be part of the word and/or root. Only context and/or grammar will tell.







And those are just the ones found in the Tanakh. Where else would they be found?



.
According to Luke 3:38, Adam (of the Garden of Eden) is called, "the son of God". Why would I, a Jew, care what Luke wrote?



Then just who is the "Satan", that comes among "the sons of GOD", in the book of Job? ”Satan” from Job is the adversary, the accuser. He is the prosecuting attorney. According to Judaism, he is a servant of God.

This has nothing to do with the pun in Isaiah that was translated as “Lucifer”.



And therein may be your problem. What you've address in "past threads", may be just as wrong as you're attempting to make me out to be here and now. I’m not attempting to make anybody out as anything. I follow the language. Your beliefs are your beliefs and I have no problem with them. Hebrew, however, is my language, and I follow the accuracy of the language. As I’ve said on more than one occasion, Mary may well have been a virgin when she conceived. Your faith is your faith, and I respect it. What I am saying is that Isaiah did not say she would be (a virgin).




Fine! Then point it out, and THEN see if it fits ALL [SCRIPTURE] of THE WORD of GOD, without the slightest iota of any Contradictions. As I keep saying, I follow the language. I’m not following any agenda other than the accuracy of the language.

[Jacob_Rising]

Makes one wonder, is the Christian religion that's closest in practices and doctrines to Judiasm, the first one to have split from Judiasm? :think:Catholism isn't the first to split from Judaism, It's not even the second.

The Sins Of Jereboam was the first to split with Judaism, The House of Israel.

They built their Temple there in Shechem and this land belongs to Joseph.

Why they would split is easy to figure out.

There were 3 inheritances, First the promise came to Benjamin, Then the Promise to Judah and Ephraim, Joseph's son.

So Ephraim vexed Judah and Judah Ephraim because the people took sides and refused to become one.

So Samaria, The House of Israel that belongs to Joseph began their own religion.

Everyone in the world has lived in Samaria from the Arabs, to Christians to Muslims.

Their Temple in Shechem stands for any gentile who is symbolicaly living next to the Jews in the land given to Joseph.

First, The Arabs and Babylonians moved into Joseph when Joseph was carried away into Assyria and never returned.

Over time everyone is Shechem if you are not a Jew.

If You worship the God of Israel and you are not a Jew or at least symbolically married and devoted to them, Then you have Shechem written across your forehead in my opinion.

The world is waiting for 10 men{Joseph} to grasp the sleeve of One Jew to say,'' I have heard that God is with you, Let me Go!''

This grasping onto the sleeve of a Jew is no less than if you grabbed Noah by the Arm and paid for passage on the waters.

It's no different than grasping the sleeve of Abraham and walking out of Sodom and Gamorah, hand in hand, not looking back because if you seek to save your life, You will lose it.

It's no different than running to the Jews coming out of Egypt saying, '' Please take me with you'' because if you are left behind, The fire comes.

That's why Jesus said, '' It will be as in the days of Noah, It will be as in the days of Lot''

Because the world seperated themselves from Judah and unless they come back, The world will self destruct.

It's funny how all the animals and insects allready know this because they are allready calling out for somebody to save the planet.

God says that if the world repents, that he will relent from the destruction but he allready hinted that the world is not going to repent.

The Prodigal son refuses to return, and people are drinking and making merry, right up until the day.

All the nations have allready chosen leaders who are fighting Israel and who hate Israel, and so the wheels are allready turning.

When will the Prodigal return after such a long time away from his Brother?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Why would I, a Jew, care what Luke wrote?





I feel like such the prophet. :cool: But perhaps that was too easy. :))

[Abe]

I feel like such the prophet. :cool: But perhaps that was too easy. :))I must have lost you somewhere... :eh:

[Koushi Shinigami]

I must have lost you somewhere... :eh:



http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=60710241&postcount=214

:)) :D

[Abe]

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=60710241&postcount=214

:)) :DWow, how did I miss that post? You can join Shady as one of the readers of my mind. :clap:

The world is suddenly so cold, and I feel so alone and vulnerable...people have pentrated right into my mind, and they know my thoughts...:((

[Koushi Shinigami]

Nah. You know what they say about how great minds operate.... :D

[RayMan]

Wow, how did I miss that post? You can join Shady as one of the readers of my mind. :clap:

The world is suddenly so cold, and I feel so alone and vulnerable...people have pentrated right into my mind, and they know my thoughts...:((

Not me.

Now J_R, him I understand...

[Abe]

Not me.

Now J_R, him I understand...Aaah, J_R. Now that's a man who deserves a whole thread...

[Jacob_Rising]

Not me.

Now J_R, him I understand...I wish you could clue me in then, Cause I don't understand myself.

I broke my vow today and I walked out to get something from my truck and my back window just blew up.

All I can do is sit there and look at the shattered glass, Dang I feel bad today, I think the lightning is coming for me.

[Jacob_Rising]

Does anyone know what shattered glass means?

If feels like such a bad Omen to me, I'm so boned about it.

[Drawz]

I wish you could clue me in then, Cause I don't understand myself.

I broke my vow today and I walked out to get something from my truck and my back window just blew up.

All I can do is sit there and look at the shattered glass, Dang I feel bad today, I think the lightning is coming for me.

What vow?

Any idea what made the glass shatter?
Once I was walking to my car (parked behind my apt) and a kid with a jerry- rigged slingshot put a rock through the rear window.

Side note: The slingshot was pretty ingenious, he cut the top few inches off a liter pop bottle, then took a small balloon and put the end of it around the mouth of the bottle. Then you just drop the rock through the bottle into the ballon, pull back on the rock inside the balloon and let fly.

[Abe]

It blew up just like that?

[Abe]

What vow?

Any idea what made the glass shatter?
Once I was walking to my car (parked behind my apt) and a kid with a jerry- rigged slingshot put a rock through the rear window.

Side note: The slingshot was pretty ingenious, he cut the top few inches off a liter pop bottle, then took a small balloon and put the end of it around the mouth of the bottle. Then you just drop the rock through the bottle into the ballon, pull back on the rock inside the balloon and let fly.

Concerning your sig, I absolutely love Lazarus Long.

[RayMan]

Concerning your sig, I absolutely love Lazarus Long.

Yep. There's always "Time Enough for Love" with 'Methuselah's Children."



“Being intelligent is not a felony, but most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor.” Lazarus Long

[Drawz]

Concerning your sig, I absolutely love Lazarus Long.
Me too, one of the best fictional characters ever.

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects!"

~Lazarus Long

[RayMan]

It blew up just like that?



I had something similar happen about ten years ago. I wake up to the sound of breaking glass at 3 a.m., go into the bedroom and one of the of the glass shower doors was shattered into a gazillion pieces.

Nobody had been in the bathroom, no earthquake, no nothing. The thing burst into pieces spontaneously as far as I could see.

[Drawz]

Yep. There's always "Time Enough for Love" with 'Methuselah's Children."



“Being intelligent is not a felony, but most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor.” Lazarus Long


Time Enough For Love- fantastic. Methuselah's Children- very good but dragged in a few places.

My favorite part of the latter is on the last page:

"They weren't gods, Lazarus. You shouldn't call them that."

"Of course they weren't--I think. My guess is that they are creatures who have had time enough to do a little hard thinking. Someday, about a thousand years from now, I intend to march straight into the temple of Kreel, look him in the eye, and say 'Howdy, bub--what do you know that I don't know?'"

"It might not be healthy."

"Well we'll have a showdown, anyway, I've never been satisfied with the outcome there. There ought not to be anything in the whole universe that man can't poke his nose into--that's the way we're built and I assume that there's a reason for it."


Not from memory, btw. Happened to have the book near to hand.

[Abe]

Yep. There's always "Time Enough for Love" with 'Methuselah's Children."



“Being intelligent is not a felony, but most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor.” Lazarus Long
Heinlin was great!

[Abe]

Time Enough For Love- fantastic. Methuselah's Children- very good but dragged in a few places.

My favorite part of the latter is on the last page:

"They weren't gods, Lazarus. You shouldn't call them that."

"Of course they weren't--I think. My guess is that they are creatures who have had time enough to do a little hard thinking. Someday, about a thousand years from now, I intend to march straight into the temple of Kreel, look him in the eye, and say 'Howdy, bub--what do you know that I don't know?'"

"It might not be healthy."

"Well we'll have a showdown, anyway, I've never been satisfied with the outcome there. There ought not to be anything in the whole universe that man can't poke his nose into--that's the way we're built and I assume that there's a reason for it."


Not from memory, btw. Happened to have the book near to hand.

And I was just about to get impressed...

[RayMan]

And I was just about to get impressed...

I know, right...I am so disappointed.



Oh wait, mine was cut and paste.


http://img.skitch.com/20080925-1qugb97bqfb6wehg75qqxgtm97.jpg

[RayMan]

Heinlin was great!

He and Asimov were my faves. There is a reason they called the late 40's the Golden Age of Sci Fi.

[Drawz]

And I was just about to get impressed...

:lol:

Damn! I blew my chance to impress Internet strangers!!

What I meant to say was, "that was all from memory, even though I had the book near at hand".

[RayMan]

:lol:

Damn! I blew my chance to impress Internet strangers!!

What I meant to say was, "that was all from memory, even though I had the book near at hand".

I can't speak for Abe but I believe you.

[Mimiheart]

I went to a Jewish day school until I was in second grade. We had to walk across the parking lot in order to get to the sanctuary. (And when I was 7, that was five miles.) We used to get all sorts of threats at that school, but usually ignored them. I remember walking across the parking lot one day, it was incredibly hot out. (Phoenix, what do you want?) And the back windshield of the car we were walking past exploded.

Our teacher yelled at us to get on the ground, and we did, and the asphalt burned us, but there was absolutely no one around. Police came and looked to see what had happened... they hadn't left their windows cracked open, and the windshield shattered from the temperature inside the car.