No Myth: Illegal Immigrants Covered under Obamacare

[darknessesedge]

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/08/no_myth_illegal_immigrants_cov.html

"Under H.R. 3200, a 'Health Insurance Exchange' would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option...H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens-whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently-participating in the Exchange."


CRS also notes that the bill has no provision for requiring those seeking coverage or services to provided proof of citizenship. So, absent some major amendments to the legislation and a credible, concrete enforcement effort in action, looks like the myth on this issue is the one being spread by Obama, Reid, Pelosi, et. al.

didnt obama and the libs say the illegals werent gonna be covered?

[chip]

Like Ive been saying, theres no mechanism in the legislation that prevents illegals from getting coverage.

[darknessesedge]

Like Ive been saying, theres no mechanism in the legislation that prevents illegals from getting coverage.

agreed

[Pastor C]

Not if I can help it they will be sent back where ever they came from.:evil:

[our time]

That is why there needs to be an immigration overhaul first before they even think about giving health care to everyone but they will not do that because there intention is to give health care to illegal immigrants and send the bill to the American taxpayer

[MADMAX]

the libs will just argue that we are already paying for their health care so it isn't a big deal.

[hatman]

I wrote to my 2 liberal senators to tell them not to support the Fairness Doctrine. They both stated categorically they wouldn't. (I know, I know, they're lying liars).

I will be doing so regarding coverage of illegal aliens. I am totally against this.

["Doc"]

Like Ive been saying, theres no mechanism in the legislation that prevents illegals from getting coverage.

Yes, but Obama and the Health Care Supporters (hey, that sounds like a 60's rock band) say that it won't. They expect the citizens to take them at their word. Citizens would be dumb to do so. First, I wouldn't take any politician at his or her word. Second what he says in 2009 has zero affect on what the President and his administration in 2013 and beyond will do. It must be in the law, in black and white, without any question and in an understandable manner.

["Doc"]

I wrote to my 2 liberal senators to tell them not to support the Fairness Doctrine. They both stated categorically they wouldn't. (I know, I know, they're lying liars).

I will be doing so regarding coverage of illegal aliens. I am totally against this.


Which two liberal senators?

[PeterGriffin]

Like Ive been saying, theres no mechanism in the legislation that prevents illegals from getting coverage.

There doesn't need to be because its already on the books.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/14/house.health.care.bill.pdf

Page 143, line 3. The health care bill can not supplant existing law.

As far as HR 3200, hell, even CyberCastNews can see that there is specific mention of exclusion of illegal aliens.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=49930

Which goes to show that once again, believing American Thinker without triple checking is gonna make you stupid.

[PeterGriffin]

the libs will just argue that we are already paying for their health care so it isn't a big deal.

Nah. We'll just point out that the American Thinking blog is completely full of ****.

[darknessesedge]

‘‘(iii) COMMENCEMENT OF ACTION.—
12 Any person who believes the person has
13 been penalized, discriminated, or retaliated
14 against or had a contract for services ter15
minated in violation of clause (i) or against
16 whom a complaint has been filed in viola17
tion of clause (ii) may bring an action at
18 law or equity in the appropriate district
19 court of the United States, which shall
20 have jurisdiction over such action without
21 regard to the amount in controversy or the

22 citizenship of the parties,

and which shall
23 have jurisdiction to grant complete relief,
24 including, but not limited to, injunctive re25
lief (such as reinstatement, compensatory

pg 575 of hr 3200

[chip]

There doesn't need to be because its already on the books.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/14/house.health.care.bill.pdf

Page 143, line 3. The health care bill can not supplant existing law.

As far as HR 3200, hell, even CyberCastNews can see that there is specific mention of exclusion of illegal aliens.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=49930

Which goes to show that once again, believing American Thinker without triple checking is gonna make you stupid.


Existing law has no mechanisms to prevent illegals from being covered. The mere existence of...

“NO FEDERAL FUNDING.—Nothing in this Act shall allow Federal payments for individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.”


...in the legislation doesnt stop it from happening. Again there is no mechanism in place or in the legislation to stop illegals from accessing the proposed healthcare.

[darknessesedge]

pg 576
‘‘(iv) RIGHTS NOT WAIVABLE.—The
9 rights protected by this paragraph may not
10 be diminished by contract or other agree11
ment, and nothing in this paragraph shall
12 be construed to diminish any greater or

13 additional protection provided by Federal

14 or State law or by contract or other agree15
ment.

[PeterGriffin]

‘‘(iii) COMMENCEMENT OF ACTION.—
12 Any person who believes the person has
13 been penalized, discriminated, or retaliated
14 against or had a contract for services ter15
minated in violation of clause (i) or against
16 whom a complaint has been filed in viola17
tion of clause (ii) may bring an action at
18 law or equity in the appropriate district
19 court of the United States, which shall
20 have jurisdiction over such action without
21 regard to the amount in controversy or the

22 citizenship of the parties,

and which shall
23 have jurisdiction to grant complete relief,
24 including, but not limited to, injunctive re25
lief (such as reinstatement, compensatory

pg 575 of hr 3200

Look, dude. I know you didn't understand three quarters of that. Don't make it worse. And do yourself a favor, lay off the American Thinker. Those guys are either complete retards, or completely evil fabricators. Probably some of both.

[darknessesedge]

pg 202
‘‘(f) SPECIAL RULES.—
19 ‘‘(1) NONRESIDENT ALIEN.—In the case of a
20 nonresident alien individual, only amounts taken
21 into account in connection with the tax imposed
22 under section 871(b) shall be taken into account
23 under this section.

[darknessesedge]

Look, dude. I know you didn't understand three quarters of that. Don't make it worse. And do yourself a favor, lay off the American Thinker. Those guys are either complete retards, or completely evil fabricators. Probably some of both.

they are just as credible as nbc/cbs/abc/ny times and so on.

[darknessesedge]

Look, dude. I know you didn't understand three quarters of that. Don't make it worse. And do yourself a favor, lay off the American Thinker. Those guys are either complete retards, or completely evil fabricators. Probably some of both.

have you actually read any of hr 3200?

[PeterGriffin]

pg 202
‘‘(f) SPECIAL RULES.—
19 ‘‘(1) NONRESIDENT ALIEN.—In the case of a
20 nonresident alien individual, only amounts taken
21 into account in connection with the tax imposed
22 under section 871(b) shall be taken into account
23 under this section.

Oh ****....LOL. You don't know what "non-resident alien" means, and you think it means an illegal alien. So cute when they're all angry and cornfuzzled.

Its someone here on a J1 or F1 visa, Mr. GettingTheTruthOut.

[darknessesedge]

Oh ****....LOL. You don't know what "non-resident alien" means, and you think it means an illegal alien. So cute when they're all angry and cornfuzzled.

Its someone here on a J1 or F1 visa, Mr. GettingTheTruthOut.

is that all you got dude..insults?
typical..

[cmit]

There doesn't need to be because its already on the books.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/14/house.health.care.bill.pdf

Page 143, line 3. The health care bill can not supplant existing law.

As far as HR 3200, hell, even CyberCastNews can see that there is specific mention of exclusion of illegal aliens.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=49930

Which goes to show that once again, believing American Thinker without triple checking is gonna make you stupid.

touche!

[chip]

touche!

:question:

Hardly.

[PeterGriffin]

is that all you got dude..insults?
typical..

Actually, I've spread factual information. You have helped disseminate either accidental or purposeful misinformation. If you were interested in the facts, you wouldn't be trying to make this about me and you would be saying "Oh, thanks Peter. I will notify the people at American Thinker so they can issue a retraction or correction".

[darknessesedge]

must be nice to have such faith in govt that people actually just roll over for their leaders.

keep drinking the obamaade kids...
its 12+ trill in the hole and growing!!

[darknessesedge]

Actually, I've spread factual information. You have helped disseminate either accidental or purposeful misinformation. If you were interested in the facts, you wouldn't be trying to make this about me and you would be saying "Oh, thanks Peter. I will notify the people at American Thinker so they can issue a retraction or correction".

go ahead and write to them then if you got any "facts"

[hatman]

Which two liberal senators?

Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell.

Once I'm convinced 'illegal' coverage will be part of the bill, I will write them.

[cmit]

go ahead and write to them then if you got any "facts"


My guess is the are not interested in facts, making stuff up is so much more fun.

[darknessesedge]

Actually, I've spread factual information. You have helped disseminate either accidental or purposeful misinformation. If you were interested in the facts, you wouldn't be trying to make this about me and you would be saying "Oh, thanks Peter. I will notify the people at American Thinker so they can issue a retraction or correction".

and you really need to get over yourself.

[chip]

My guess is the are not interested in facts, making stuff up is so much more fun.

They arent making anything up. There is no mechanism in the legislation nor is there any current mechanism that prevents illegals from accessing the proposed legislation. It doesnt exist.

[darknessesedge]

My guess is the are not interested in facts, making stuff up is so much more fun.

keep watching those state run "news" shows, they give you all the info anyone needs..:rolleyes:

[PeterGriffin]

The myth that will not die: Health care for immigrants
You can depend on it. Whenever we write an article or a blog about the woes of the U.S. health care system, at least one person writes back to complain about how illegal immigrants get free health care.
Some recent examples:

One of the biggest costs in Healthcare is not even mentioned in Obama's plan.....Illegal Aliens get free healthcare!!

It just boggles my mind that we take care of ILLEGALS and their families and the unemployed but offer no assistance to a hard-working, tax-paying AMERICAN CITIZEN.

And an anti-reform chain email that’s circulating in various versions on the Internet ups the ante by claiming that the House health care bill* says that "HC will be provided to all non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise, will be provided with health care services."
To get this latter assertion out of the way first, it’s a fiction. The bill specifically says that that undocumented aliens aren’t eligible for subsidized health insurance. See for yourself:

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/.a/6a00d83451e0d569e20120a55c701a970c-pi

It’s unclear where the larger urban myth of "free health care for illegals" originated, but it’s not true either.


"No matter what studies show or the clear language of the eligibility rules, the myth that immigrants get free care persists," says Sonal Ambegaokar, health policy attorney at the National Immigration Law Center, a non-profit group in Los Angeles.
Here are the facts about this combustible subject:


Illegal immigrants are not eligible for any of the major government-run health programs, including Medicare, Medicaid, or CHIP. Period.Legal immigrants have to be in the U.S. lawfully for five years to sign up for these programs and have to meet the same eligibility standards as anyone else. The 2009 revision of the Children’s Health Insurance Program gives states the option of removing the five-year waiting period for children and pregnant women; everybody else still has to wait. It’s not yet known how many states will sign on for this.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/08/health-care-for-illegal-immigrants-the-myth-that-will-not-die-health-reform-myths-about-immigrants-.html?EXTKEY=I91CONL&CMP=OTC-ConsumeristRSS

[darknessesedge]

They arent making anything up. There is no mechanism in the legislation nor is there any current mechanism that prevents illegals from accessing the proposed legislation. It doesnt exist.

you can say that till the end of time chip, but the left just turns a blind eye to the truth.

[cmit]

keep watching those state run "news" shows, they give you all the info anyone needs..:rolleyes:

Don't personally watch TV. I get my facts by reading the actual bills. I prefer to think on my own, not be told what to believe. Don't listen to 12 hours of talk radio a day either to get my views.

[Trip]

There doesn't need to be because its already on the books.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/14/house.health.care.bill.pdf

Page 143, line 3. The health care bill can not supplant existing law.

As far as HR 3200, hell, even CyberCastNews can see that there is specific mention of exclusion of illegal aliens.

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=49930

Which goes to show that once again, believing American Thinker without triple checking is gonna make you stupid.

At First glance:

At first glance the bill seems to prohibit care to illegals under "SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS".

Of course pg 50, SEC. 152. "PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE" says nothing about illegal aliens. What it does say is that they cannot withhold health care based on things having nothing to do with "the provision of high quality health care" -- and LEGAL STATUS has nothing to do with the provision of high quality health care:



21 SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.
22 (a) IN GENERAL.—Except as otherwise explicitly per
23 mitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations con
24 sistent with this Act, all health care and related services
25 (including insurance coverage and public health activities)

1 covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to
2 personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of
3 high quality health care or related services.
4 (b) IMPLEMENTATION.—To implement the require
5 ment set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health
6 and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after
7 the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such
8 regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that
9 all health care and related services (including insurance
10 coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act
11 are provided (whether directly or through contractual,
12 licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to per
13 sonal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high
14 quality health care or related services.

It sure seems to me that one's legal status has nothing to do with "the provision of high quality health care or related services" (such as other social freebies they've been getting).

I don't see anywhere else in the plan that "explicitly permits" (22-23) the exclusion of persons if they are not citizens or not legal residents. Do you?



1)THE bill prohibits discrimination and withholding of health care services based on any personal information, this would include one's "legal status".

2) The Bill nowhere explicitly prohibits compensation for illegal alien coverage by other means than by direct affordability compensation payments to other than individuals.

3) the Bill makes no provision whereby it is ascertained if persons are legal residents or illegal aliens.

3) Without such a provision, they will be giving illegals health care under a "dont ask, dont tell" policy.

Analysis Of The Actual Prohibition:


SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments
for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are
not lawfully present in the United States.


They do not specifically say "no health care will be provided illegals". That would be too... straightforward and honest, and entirely against this administration's every modus operandi.

Under a misleadingly broad title, "No FEDERAL Payment for Undocumented Aliens", instead what they do is create a series of FOUR Limiting Clauses resulting inprogressively narrowing reference, leading to only one specific thing, while appearing to make a clear denial, but never doing so!

FOUR LIMITING CLAUSES
:arrow: 1) first they say " Nothing in THIS SUBtitle" ( nothing here in the THIS SUBtitle, but elsewhere in the Act?)

:arrow: 2) THEN they refer to "Federal Payments"

:arrow: 3) and then they narrow it with "for affordability credits"

:arrow: 4) and then they further narrow it with "on behalf of individuals"

:arrow: AND THEN FINALLY AFTER ALL THAT THEY GET TO "NOT LAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES".



ALL those caveats on ONE sentence. BS!

SOMETHING LIKE THIS WOULD BE ALLOWED THOUGH:
And nowhere does it prohibit "Federal Compensation"....
For "Persons of Transitioning Coverage" ............
to reimburse "medical care companies"

This would be allowed because they are not "affordability credits" for "individuals".



AND NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THERE IS ANY REQUIREMENT THEY CHECK TO SEE IF SOMEONE IS A VALID CITIZEN OR EVEN JUST HERE LEGALLY!!!

Unlawful Vs Illegal
Black’s Law Dictionary defines lawful as "authorized by law."
Illegal is defined as forbidden by law.
It is unlawful to cross the street outside the crosswalks, but it is illegal to sell heroine.
If someone is "lawful they are "authorized by the law; if someone is "unlawful" they are not-authorized by the law.


While someone may be ""NOT LAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES" they are not found to be "NOT LAWFUL" unless they are stopped and questioned. They are always ILLEGAL if here ILLEGALLY, but it is not UNLAWFUL if no one questions them and finds them to be in violation of any law. Ultimately, if no one is required to question these illegals, and none is required to prohibit them by such questioning, then these illegals cannot ever be found to be "NOT Lawful".



At minimal you have a prohibition with NO TEETH.
And at worst you have a program they are intending to lie to us about.

It is smarmy, dishonest politics with the prohibition so narrowed by limiting clauses it is meaningless.

In the language of Legalese it's called "YOU didn't read the damn contract"

There is nothing in this bill to indicate that illegal aliens will be prohibited from coverage, with even a roundabout means of government-supported coverage possible ... and likely.

[chip]

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/08/health-care-for-illegal-immigrants-the-myth-that-will-not-die-health-reform-myths-about-immigrants-.html?EXTKEY=I91CONL&CMP=OTC-ConsumeristRSS

Go ahead and provide a link to the mechanism that prevents illegals from accessing the proposed healthcare plan.

Simply saying that theres no payment for undocumented aliens doesnt prevent it from happening.

[darknessesedge]

at first glance:

at first glance the bill seems to prohibit care to illegals under "sec. 246. No federal payment for undocumented aliens".

Of course pg 50, sec. 152. "prohibiting discrimination in health care" says nothing about illegal aliens. What it does say is that they cannot withhold health care based on things having nothing to do with "the provision of high quality health care" -- and legal status has nothing to do with the provision of high quality health care:



21 sec. 152. Prohibiting discrimination in health care.
22 (a) in general.—except as otherwise explicitly per
23 mitted by this act and by subsequent regulations con
24 sistent with this act, all health care and related services
25 (including insurance coverage and public health activities)

1 covered by this act shall be provided without regard to
2 personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of
3 high quality health care or related services.
4 (b) implementation.—to implement the require
5 ment set forth in subsection (a), the secretary of health
6 and human services shall, not later than 18 months after
7 the date of the enactment of this act, promulgate such
8 regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that
9 all health care and related services (including insurance
10 coverage and public health activities) covered by this act
11 are provided (whether directly or through contractual,
12 licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to per
13 sonal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high
14 quality health care or related services.

it sure seems to me that one's legal status has nothing to do with "the provision of high quality health care or related services" (such as other social freebies they've been getting).

i don't see anywhere else in the plan that "explicitly permits" (22-23) the exclusion of persons if they are not citizens or not legal residents. do you?



1)the bill prohibits discrimination and withholding of health care services based on any personal information, this would include one's "legal status".

2) the bill nowhere explicitly prohibits compensation for illegal alien coverage by other means than by direct affordability compensation payments to other than individuals.

3) the bill makes no provision whereby it is ascertained if persons are legal residents or illegal aliens.

3) without such a provision, they will be giving illegals health care under a "dont ask, dont tell" policy.

analysis of the actual prohibition:


sec. 246. no federal payment for undocumented aliens

nothing in this subtitle shall allow federal payments
for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are
not lawfully present in the united states.


they do not specifically say "no health care will be provided illegals". That would be too... Straightforward and honest, and entirely against this administration's every modus operandi.

Under a misleadingly broad title, "no federal payment for undocumented aliens", instead what they do is create a series of four limiting clauses resulting inprogressively narrowing reference, leading to only one specific thing, while appearing to make a clear denial, but never doing so!

four limiting clauses
:arrow: 1) first they say " nothing in this subtitle" ( nothing here in the this subtitle, but elsewhere in the act?)

:arrow: 2) then they refer to "federal payments"

:arrow: 3) and then they narrow it with "for affordability credits"

:arrow: 4) and then they further narrow it with "on behalf of individuals"

:arrow: And then finally after all that they get to "not lawfully present in the united states".



All those caveats on one sentence. Bs!

something like this would be allowed though:
and nowhere does it prohibit "federal compensation"....
For "persons of transitioning coverage" ............
To reimburse "medical care companies"

this would be allowed because they are not "affordability credits" for "individuals".



and nowhere does it say there is any requirement they check to see if someone is a valid citizen or even just here legally!!!

unlawful vs illegal
black’s law dictionary defines lawful as "authorized by law."
illegal is defined as forbidden by law.
it is unlawful to cross the street outside the crosswalks, but it is illegal to sell heroine.
If someone is "lawful they are "authorized by the law; if someone is "unlawful" they are not-authorized by the law.


While someone may be ""not lawfully present in the united states" they are not found to be "not lawful" unless they are stopped and questioned. They are always illegal if here illegally, but it is not unlawful if no one questions them and finds them to be in violation of any law. ultimately, if no one is required to question these illegals, and none is required to prohibit them by such questioning, then these illegals cannot ever be found to be "not lawful".



at minimal you have a prohibition with no teeth.
And at worst you have a program they are intending to lie to us about.

it is smarmy, dishonest politics with the prohibition so narrowed by limiting clauses it is meaningless.

In the language of legalese it's called "you didn't read the damn contract"

there is nothing in this bill to indicate that illegal aliens will be prohibited from coverage, with even a roundabout means of government-supported coverage possible ... And likely.

amen bro!

[PeterGriffin]

Go ahead and provide a link to the mechanism that prevents illegals from accessing the proposed healthcare plan.

Simply saying that theres no payment for undocumented aliens doesnt prevent it from happening.

There's language in both the House and Senate bills and existing law that prevent illegal aliens from being eligible.

What do you mean by "mechanism", ICE agents in hospitals checking immigration status?

[Trip]

Go ahead and provide a link to the mechanism that prevents illegals from accessing the proposed healthcare plan.

Simply saying that theres no payment for undocumented aliens doesnt prevent it from happening.

we're arguing the same point, but it doesn't actually say there is "no payment for undocumented aliens"

what it says is:
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments
for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are
not lawfully present in the United States.

There are four (4) limiting cluases in this, each narrowing the application of the statement.

1) nothing in this subtitle (but perhaps elsewhere)
2) shall allow federal payments (but we know there are other means to achieve this not involving Federal payments)
3) For affordability credits - again, there are different means of remuneration that a"affordability credits"
4) on behalf of individuals - if payments are made on behalf of organizations who give out "charity" work and they get repayment in a mass, cost basis, but not individually, then it is not prohibited. These might even be government run facilities.

[chip]

There's language in both the House and Senate bills and existing law that prevent illegal aliens from being eligible.

Saying theres no payment doesnt keep it from happening, whats so hard to understand about this?

What do you mean by "mechanism", ICE agents in hospitals checking immigration status?

Theres no requirement for proof of citizenship. ZERO. Nothing exists to ensure illegals cant access the healthcare proposed, nothing in the legislation and nothing on the books currently.

[Trip]

There's language in both the House and Senate bills and existing law that prevent illegal aliens from being eligible.

What do you mean by "mechanism", ICE agents in hospitals checking immigration status?

If no one is actually required to check a person's legal status, then there can be no support for any claim the bills deny illegals.

[darknessesedge]

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/08/health-care-for-illegal-immigrants-the-myth-that-will-not-die-health-reform-myths-about-immigrants-.html?EXTKEY=I91CONL&CMP=OTC-ConsumeristRSS

so you are comparing the info you get from a left wing rag like consume reports to the America thinker?


consume reports WAS a good mag to read up on products..

but now it has its own left winf adgendas...
http://www.greenerchoices.org/globalwarming.cfm

[Ironhide]

At First glance:

At first glance the bill seems to prohibit care to illegals under "SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS".

Of course pg 50, SEC. 152. "PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE" says nothing about illegal aliens. What it does say is that they cannot withhold health care based on things having nothing to do with "the provision of high quality health care" -- and LEGAL STATUS has nothing to do with the provision of high quality health care:


21 SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.
22 (a) IN GENERAL.—Except as otherwise explicitly per
23 mitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations con
24 sistent with this Act, all health care and related services
25 (including insurance coverage and public health activities)

1 covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to
2 personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of
3 high quality health care or related services.
4 (b) IMPLEMENTATION.—To implement the require
5 ment set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health
6 and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after
7 the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such
8 regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that
9 all health care and related services (including insurance
10 coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act
11 are provided (whether directly or through contractual,
12 licensing, or other arrangements) without regard to per
13 sonal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high
14 quality health care or related services.It sure seems to me that one's legal status has nothing to do with "the provision of high quality health care or related services" (such as other social freebies they've been getting).

I don't see anywhere else in the plan that "explicitly permits" (22-23) the exclusion of persons if they are not citizens or not legal residents. Do you?



1)THE bill prohibits discrimination and withholding of health care services based on any personal information, this would include one's "legal status".

2) The Bill nowhere explicitly prohibits compensation for illegal alien coverage by other means than by direct affordability compensation payments to other than individuals.

3) the Bill makes no provision whereby it is ascertained if persons are legal residents or illegal aliens.

3) Without such a provision, they will be giving illegals health care under a "dont ask, dont tell" policy.

Analysis Of The Actual Prohibition:
SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments
for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are
not lawfully present in the United States.
They do not specifically say "no health care will be provided illegals". That would be too... straightforward and honest, and entirely against this administration's every modus operandi.

Under a misleadingly broad title, "No FEDERAL Payment for Undocumented Aliens", instead what they do is create a series of FOUR Limiting Clauses resulting inprogressively narrowing reference, leading to only one specific thing, while appearing to make a clear denial, but never doing so!

FOUR LIMITING CLAUSES
:arrow: 1) first they say " Nothing in THIS SUBtitle" ( nothing here in the THIS SUBtitle, but elsewhere in the Act?)

:arrow: 2) THEN they refer to "Federal Payments"

:arrow: 3) and then they narrow it with "for affordability credits"

:arrow: 4) and then they further narrow it with "on behalf of individuals"

:arrow: AND THEN FINALLY AFTER ALL THAT THEY GET TO "NOT LAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES".



ALL those caveats on ONE sentence. BS!

SOMETHING LIKE THIS WOULD BE ALLOWED THOUGH:
And nowhere does it prohibit "Federal Compensation"....
For "Persons of Transitioning Coverage" ............
to reimburse "medical care companies"

This would be allowed because they are not "affordability credits" for "individuals".



AND NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THERE IS ANY REQUIREMENT THEY CHECK TO SEE IF SOMEONE IS A VALID CITIZEN OR EVEN JUST HERE LEGALLY!!!

Unlawful Vs IllegalBlack’s Law Dictionary defines lawful as "authorized by law."
Illegal is defined as forbidden by law.It is unlawful to cross the street outside the crosswalks, but it is illegal to sell heroine.
If someone is "lawful they are "authorized by the law; if someone is "unlawful" they are not-authorized by the law.


While someone may be ""NOT LAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES" they are not found to be "NOT LAWFUL" unless they are stopped and questioned. They are always ILLEGAL if here ILLEGALLY, but it is not UNLAWFUL if no one questions them and finds them to be in violation of any law. Ultimately, if no one is required to question these illegals, and none is required to prohibit them by such questioning, then these illegals cannot ever be found to be "NOT Lawful".


At minimal you have a prohibition with NO TEETH.
And at worst you have a program they are intending to lie to us about.

It is smarmy, dishonest politics with the prohibition so narrowed by limiting clauses it is meaningless.

In the language of Legalese it's called "YOU didn't read the damn contract"

There is nothing in this bill to indicate that illegal aliens will be prohibited from coverage, with even a roundabout means of government-supported coverage possible ... and likely.


Haha, Peter got owned!

[PeterGriffin]

OK. So long as we're straight that the "Illegal Immigrants Covered Under ObamaCare" is complete nonsense when there is language all over the place that specifically excludes illegal immigrants. Agreed?

What you guys are crapping in your pants about is simple fraud, of which there are already numerous mechanism in place to investigate. The FBI, the DoJ, the Inspector General of HHS.....

[PeterGriffin]

Haha, Peter got owned!

Trip's "baffle 'em with ******** and tons of links" debate style impresses some, I'll give him that. But in the end, its still ********.

[chip]

OK. So long as we're straight that the "Illegal Immigrants Covered Under ObamaCare" is complete nonsense when there is language all over the place that specifically excludes illegal immigrants. Agreed?

What you guys are crapping in your pants about is simple fraud, of which there are already numerous mechanism in place to investigate. The FBI, the DoJ, the Inspector General of HHS.....

There arent ANY mechanisms in place to investigate or prevent illegals from accessing the proposed legislation.

We have 22 million illegals theres nothing "simple" about it. One would think we would require proof of citizenship or something, but we dont.

Simply saying they wont be covered is simply baffle 'em with ********.

[Ironhide]

Trip's "baffle 'em with ******** and tons of links" debate style impresses some, I'll give him that. But in the end, its still ********.

Nevermind the fact that his post makes complete sense, and you are either unable or not willing to find holes in it. Undoubtedly the former.

This ...

But in the end, its still ********.... is not a very convincing rebuttal. You don't need to be as thorough, make a case.

[penner01]

That is why there needs to be an immigration overhaul first before they even think about giving health care to everyone but they will not do that because there intention is to give health care to illegal immigrants and send the bill to the American taxpayer Exactly why they want to secure UHC now. Immigration reform is on the agenda for next year and you know they will make them all citizens.

[darknessesedge]

Exactly why they want to secure UHC now. Immigration reform is on the agenda for next year and you know they will make them all citizens.

BINGO!!!!
you have just solved the illegal immigration issue..make everyone a citizen..

[WildKaper]

Trip's "baffle 'em with ******** and tons of links" debate style impresses some, I'll give him that. But in the end, its still ********.

Peter,

There are 22 million reasons walking around that say even if something is "unlawful" or "illegal", the government can't or won't prevent it.

[darknessesedge]

Peter,

There are 22 million reasons walking around that say even if something is "unlawful" or "illegal", the government can't or won't prevent it.

22/11/50 million whatever..
they are a burden on the taxpayer and should be deported.

never gonna happen under the current admin though..
they see them as future voters.
and they will be covered in hc.

[Trip]

Trip's "baffle 'em with ******** and tons of links" debate style impresses some, I'll give him that. But in the end, its still ********.

Apparently the reasonable application of the English language is ******* to you, but then why don't you apply the same standard to the lying Obama administration?

[chip]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/prnewswire/2009/08/26/prnewswire200908261324PR_NEWS_USPR_____DC66551.htm l

Congressional Research Service: Illegal Aliens Can Receive Benefits Under House Health Care Bill



Tuesday, the Congressional Research Service (CRS), the "research arm" for the United States Congress, issued a report validating an analysis by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), that illegal aliens would be able to receive benefits under the House health care reform bill, America's Affordable Health Care Act of 2009 (H.R. 3200).

[redbone]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/prnewswire/2009/08/26/prnewswire200908261324PR_NEWS_USPR_____DC66551.htm l

Congressional Research Service: Illegal Aliens Can Receive Benefits Under House Health Care Bill



Tuesday, the Congressional Research Service (CRS), the "research arm" for the United States Congress, issued a report validating an analysis by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), that illegal aliens would be able to receive benefits under the House health care reform bill, America's Affordable Health Care Act of 2009 (H.R. 3200).

If the bill does not state Illegal aliens can not receive benefits then they can. They written the bill not to mention illegal aliens but it should be clearly written to state they can not receive benefits. This whole bill needs to be canned.

[darknessesedge]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/prnewswire/2009/08/26/prnewswire200908261324PR_NEWS_USPR_____DC66551.htm l

Congressional Research Service: Illegal Aliens Can Receive Benefits Under House Health Care Bill



Tuesday, the Congressional Research Service (CRS), the "research arm" for the United States Congress, issued a report validating an analysis by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), that illegal aliens would be able to receive benefits under the House health care reform bill, America's Affordable Health Care Act of 2009 (H.R. 3200).

but but but obama said no....
facts always get in the way of a libs koolaid diet.

[Mixylplix]

Afordability Credits are the ONLY thing specifically denied illegals. Affordability credits are credits to low income people to get the "insurance" coverage of the system at a discount. So what it comes down to is simple. Illegals get the coverage at the same cost as anyone legally in the US that is not considerred "poor".

So basically they will get fully fucntional insurance at the same rates as American Citizens. Peter Griffin. You have shown pure ignorance of the bill or the bility to search a PDF file. You've gone and attacked the people and not the argument. And you've been proven to be wrong.

Why not just accept that you are wrong instead of being a jerk and trying to stomp your feet louder. You're wrong dude.


OPEN ENROLLMENT PERIOD.—The
12 Commissioner shall establish an annual open
13 enrollment period during which an Exchange-el14
igible individual or employer may elect to enroll
15 in an Exchange-participating health benefits
16 plan for the following plan year and an enroll17
ment period for affordability credits under sub18
title C. Such periods shall be during September
19 through November of each year, or such other
20 time that would maximize timeliness of income
21 verification for purposes of such subtitle. The
22 open enrollment period shall not be less than 30
23 days.

[mawst95]

Like Ive been saying, theres no mechanism in the legislation that prevents illegals from getting coverage.

I'm going to try to lead a horse to water:

Chip, is the "exchange" coverage? Can you explain what the exchange is?

Will the exchange have private insurance options?

Do private insurance companies have citizenship requirements?

If an illegal wants to pay for private insurance he or she can do so? Is there a law preventing illegals from buying private insurance?

Does the Bill allow for illegals to get government subsidies? Get into a public option?

And lastly, Chip, do you think the government should make the rules for private insurance companies on whom they can insure? Are you in favor of that type of government regulation?

____________________________


Since I'm pretty sure that the above will be lost on most denizens of this forum, I'll explain it to you:

The exchange is a marketplace: You'll be able to see different private insurance options all in one place, including, perhaps a government subsidized public option. You can chose what option best suits your needs. If you are an illegal, you can't get government subsidies or get into the "public option" so you'll have to buy private insurance. Private insurance companies--and God I love the free market--can decide for themselves who they want to insure. Private companies set their own rules. Now unless our good friend Chip wants Obama to set the rules for private insurance companies, if a private insurance firm wants to insure an illegal and they can pay, they can get insured.

Sigh.

303-1-1

[Lady Liberty]

Go ahead and provide a link to the mechanism that prevents illegals from accessing the proposed healthcare plan.

Simply saying that theres no payment for undocumented aliens doesnt prevent it from happening.


Thank you. Your clarity is so refreshing.

[chip]

If you are an illegal, you can't get government subsidies or get into the "public option" so you'll have to buy private insurance.

Wrong.

[Trip]

I'm going to try to lead a horse to water:

Chip, is the "exchange" coverage? Can you explain what the exchange is?

Will the exchange have private insurance options?

Do private insurance companies have citizenship requirements?

If an illegal wants to pay for private insurance he or she can do so? Is there a law preventing illegals from buying private insurance?

Does the Bill allow for illegals to get government subsidies? Get into a public option?

And lastly, Chip, do you think the government should make the rules for private insurance companies on whom they can insure? Are you in favor of that type of government regulation?

____________________________


Since I'm pretty sure that the above will be lost on most denizens of this forum, I'll explain it to you:

The exchange is a marketplace: You'll be able to see different private insurance options all in one place, including, perhaps a government subsidized public option. You can chose what option best suits your needs. If you are an illegal, you can't get government subsidies or get into the "public option" so you'll have to buy private insurance. Private insurance companies--and God I love the free market--can decide for themselves who they want to insure. Private companies set their own rules. Now unless our good friend Chip wants Obama to set the rules for private insurance companies, if a private insurance firm wants to insure an illegal and they can pay, they can get insured.

Sigh.

303-1-1

The "Exchange" will provide coverage.

The "Exchange is not "private insurance" and is meeting the governments requirements and policy dictates and is subject to stipulations that even the public option has not subjected itself to immediate "so as to be competative".

Private insurance companies do not have citizenship requirements but this is an irrelevant deflection. Even those with "private insurance" are having to pay the government and be licensed by the government. The question is, "Who is the government pay for?" And in this case it looks like they will be paying for illegal aliens. Since the government does not get money on its own, and instead takes money from citizens, this will be a further cost born by the citizens and added to health care costs.

Lastly, the government WILL BE making rules for private insurance on who the can insure, what coverage they can give and what costs they must bear.

CONSPICUOUS among all of this is the fact that NONE of this has to do with the government completely subsidizing care for illegal aliens.

[mawst95]

You don't understand what the exchange is. The exchange isn't insurance.

Illegals can not get subsidies and cannot get into the public option. Amazing what you learn when you're friends with people that helped write the bills we're discussing.

[Trip]

You don't understand what the exchange is. The exchange isn't insurance.

Illegals can not get subsidies and cannot get into the public option. Amazing what you learn when you're friends with people that helped write the bills we're discussing.

You should be ashamed of the company you keep.

[chip]

Illegals can not get subsidies and cannot get into the public option.

Yes they most certainly can, there is no mechanism keeping it from happening and the Congressional Research Service agrees.

Your opinion and your friends opinion are simply that, opinions.

Maybe you should ask your friends to show you what keeps them from getting access to the public system since NOBODY has EVER provided a link or source to that mechanism. Which is exactly why such a respected body such as the CRS came out with the study yesterday that I linked which you obviously ignored.

[penner01]

This is a pretty telling statement from the CRS article.

"Case closed. Illegal aliens will be eligible to participate in the health care program offered by the House bill unless Congress acts to amend the bill," stated Dan Stein, president of FAIR. "The loopholes and omissions in the House bill are not there by accident," continued Stein. "These loopholes were intended to extend benefits to illegal aliens while allowing Members of Congress to deny those facts to the American people."

And this one.

CRS also confirms FAIR's assessment that the House bill does not include a mechanism to prevent illegal aliens from receiving "affordability credits" that would subsidize the purchase of private health insurance (http://topics.forbes.com/health%20insurance). CRS specifically noted the absence "of a provision in the bill specifying the verification procedure."

They are supposed to be excluded from eligibility credits........but you can't verify that they aren't eligible?

[mawst95]

Yes they most certainly can, there is no mechanism keeping it from happening and the Congressional Research Service agrees.

Your opinion and your friends opinion are simply that, opinions.

Maybe you should ask your friends to show you what keeps them from getting access to the public system since NOBODY has EVER provided a link or source to that mechanism. Which is exactly why such a respected body such as the CRS came out with the study yesterday that I linked which you obviously ignored.

No, they can get into the exchange. the exchange is not another word for public option. the exchange is an exchange, not coverage. they can buy private insurance through the exchange if the private co's allow illegals to enroll.

Think of the exchange as a flea market. You have all sorts of tables at the flea market. Many tables are run by private sellers. One table has government goods. There's also a table where you can get coupons for discounts on the various tables at the flea market. An illegal alien is allowed into the flea market. They can buy from the private seller's table, but they cannot buy from the government table, nor can they use any of the coupons.

[mawst95]

This is a pretty telling statement from the CRS article.

"Case closed. Illegal aliens will be eligible to participate in the health care program offered by the House bill unless Congress acts to amend the bill," stated Dan Stein, president of FAIR. "The loopholes and omissions in the House bill are not there by accident," continued Stein. "These loopholes were intended to extend benefits to illegal aliens while allowing Members of Congress to deny those facts to the American people."

And this one.

CRS also confirms FAIR's assessment that the House bill does not include a mechanism to prevent illegal aliens from receiving "affordability credits" that would subsidize the purchase of private health insurance (http://topics.forbes.com/health%20insurance). CRS specifically noted the absence "of a provision in the bill specifying the verification procedure."

They are supposed to be excluded from eligibility credits........but you can't verify that they aren't eligible?

This is dishonest, you make it sound like the full quotes above are from CRS and they are not. They are misinterpretations of what CRS said.

[Trip]

No, they can get into the exchange. the exchange is not another word for public option. the exchange is an exchange, not coverage. they can buy private insurance through the exchange if the private co's allow illegals to enroll.

Think of the exchange as a flea market. You have all sorts of tables at the flea market. Many tables are run by private sellers. One table has government goods. There's also a table where you can get coupons for discounts on the various tables at the flea market. An illegal alien is allowed into the flea market. They can buy from the private seller's table, but they cannot buy from the government table, nor can they use any of the coupons.

Think of the Exchange as one table with goods labeled "Government Goods". Another table has goods labeled "Private Goods", however if you peel back this label it says "Government Goods" underneath it, the reason being these so-called "Private Goods" are really dictated by the government.

The duties of "The Commissioner" are indicated in Title II, page 72:

OUTLINE OF DUTIES OF COMMISSIONER.—In accordance with this subtitle and in coordination with appropriate Federal and State officials as provided under section 143(b), the Commissioner shall—

(1) under section 204 establish standards for,
accept bids from, and negotiate and enter into contracts
with, QHBP offering entities for the offering of health
benefits plans through the Health Insurance Exchange,
with different levels of benefits required under section 203,
and including with respect to oversight and enforcement;


And still you have to pay a tax for using this so-called "private insurance".

Funny, it sure sounds like those offerings, even from "private providers" are being told what policies, standards, and coverage they must and can provide. This would TEND to indicate they are not truly private policies at all, but government dictated policies. Investor's Business Daily clarified this point in stating "private insurance offered on the exchange will be too regulated to be considered true private insurance." If the government is regulating and dictating what you get from the "Exchange", then it is not reasonably the result of private competition and is at the whim of government dictate.


Government has put itself in the insurance business and would be dictating the terms by which any "private providers" can compete. This seems to me like playing Monopoly, while controlling the "bank" and making up the rules as you go along.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me.

[mawst95]

Think of the Exchange as one table with goods labeled "Government Goods". Another table has goods labeled "Private Goods", however if you peel back this label it says "Government Goods" underneath it, the reason being these so-called "Private Goods" are really dictated by the government.

The duties of "The Commissioner" are indicated in Title II, page 72:
OUTLINE OF DUTIES OF COMMISSIONER.—In accordance with this subtitle and in coordination with appropriate Federal and State officials as provided under section 143(b), the Commissioner shall—

(1) under section 204 establish standards for,
accept bids from, and negotiate and enter into contracts
with, QHBP offering entities for the offering of health
benefits plans through the Health Insurance Exchange,
with different levels of benefits required under section 203,
and including with respect to oversight and enforcement;
And still you have to pay a tax for using this so-called "private insurance".

Funny, it sure sounds like those offerings, even from "private providers" are being told what policies, standards, and coverage they must and can provide. This would TEND to indicate they are not truly private policies at all, but government dictated policies. Investor's Business Daily clarified this point in stating "private insurance offered on the exchange will be too regulated to be considered true private insurance." If the government is regulating and dictating what you get from the "Exchange", then it is not reasonably the result of private competition and is at the whim of government dictate.


Government has put itself in the insurance business and would be dictating the terms by which any "private providers" can compete. This seems to me like playing Monopoly, while controlling the "bank" and making up the rules as you go along.

Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me.

This is an important point, Trip, but tangential to the erroneous claim that illegals will be eligible for either gov't subsidies or the public plan if there is one. They won't. Period.

As for what you're saying above -- as I understand it, its true in a sense. If you recall my flea-market analogy above: it IS the government's flea market. They set the rules for selling there to a degree. As in a flea-market (how big your table can be, what hours you can sell, etc). In the case of the health care exchange, if private companies want to participate there will be rules, just like the flea market: you can't deny for preexisting conditions, rescission will be eliminated and there will probably be other regulations as well.

But here's the important part: private insurers do NOT have to particpate in the exchange. They can sell in the private market and not be subject to the regulations of the exchange. Its their choice. The exchange will gather a huge number of potential new customers all in one spot, so it may be in the insurers best economic interest to ACCEPT the regulations and choose to participate. Take the flea market analogy one step further and look at ebay. If you want to sell on ebay you have to submit to ebay's rules. Some of those rules aren't favorable to sellers, but for many merchants its worth it because ebay draws a huge number of consumers to one place. If you don't like ebay's rules, set up your own store and sell independently.

As for insurance companies outside the exchange, I'm sure there will be new consumer protections put in place as well. But this is no different than any industry. Cable, telecom, banking, credit cards, auto, food service--they all have regulations in place to protect consumers. Would anyone argue that the FDA demanding higher quality food quality a bad thing? Likewise, is preventing insurers from cutting you and your family off if you get cancer b/c you forgot you had the flu 4 years ago and stayed in a hospital overnight a BAD thing?

[chip]

They can buy from the private seller's table, but they cannot buy from the government table, nor can they use any of the coupons.

Yes they can as there is no mechanism preventing them from doing so. Nothing existing and nothing in the proposed legislation prevent it.

The Congressional Research Center even admits this.

[mawst95]

Yes they can as there is no mechanism preventing them from doing so. Nothing existing and nothing in the proposed legislation prevent it.

The Congressional Research Center even admits this.

No, Chip. You are wrong. I'll try this one more time. CRS said, as I've also said above, that illegals can participate in the EXCHANGE. They can enter the flea-market--but they can't buy from the government table or use the government coupons. When you apply for the public plan or federal subsidies you have to provide valid SS#. Baring ID fraud, illegals won't be able to buy the public plan or use the subs. Can they buy private plans participating in the exchange? Yes. Like CRS said, illegals can use the exchange. I suspect the private insurers participating would INSIST on this, since they want to maximize their consumer pool.

You, like many GOP members of Congress, simply don't understand what the exchange is. I've explained it and you have refused to listen either because you have problems understanding facts or you are so blindly partisan that reality doesn't matter to you, only confirming your bias.

[chip]

When you apply for the public plan or federal subsidies you have to provide valid SS#. Baring ID fraud, illegals won't be able to buy the public plan or use the subs.



Again. There is no mechanism preventing illegals gaining access to the public plan. There is no requirement to prove citizenship. Point me to the section of HR3200 that requires verification of citizenship.

[mawst95]

HR 3200, SUBTITLE C, SECTION 246
“Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.”

Are you saying that the public option form, unlike every insurance form ever made will NOT ask you for a social security number?

So the language specifically says it won't cover non-citizens, but *SECRETLY* will allow illegals to participate by not requiring you to provide a SS number?

What's weird is, as a progressive, there's not some secret progressive push to cover illegal aliens with this. If you did, the costs would sky rocket. Not only that but it would imperil the current plan as written. This political suicide isn't part of the liberal agenda.