Adherents of the religion of peace cut off Afghan voters' fingers

[Dual867PowerMac]

At least two people. And both were women.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/22/afghanistan.election/

My prayers are with the victims.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

:eek::eek::eek: My God! Cutting off fingers of two women because they voted? I mean holy flying frogs and raining toads! Religion of peace at work huh....when are moderate Muslims going to take a stand against this type of barbarism? When is the 'majority' that is supposedly moderate gonna take these radicals to task? I mean...come on...the Taliban can't kill them all..they won't have anyone left to rule over.

At some point these moderate Afghans are gonna have to stand up against this type of brutality..make their voices heard...take a stand for Gods sake!

Makes me heart sick to know that even through all the international help, the money, the armed forces that have put their lives on the line for these people to have some form of freedom...that not much has changed in the region. It's the war that never ends...:think:

~Mysty

[sironin]

Their culture never had a feminist revolution. They never had two wars to end all wars that involved sending the majority of their healthiest men off to die (leaving women to pick up the slack). They never had a military operation last so long that it effectively ended non-volunteer military forces. These factors, combined with our own interference, are going to make their cultural revolution much more violent.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Their culture never had a feminist revolution. They never had two wars to end all wars that involved sending the majority of their healthiest men off to die (leaving women to pick up the slack). They never had a military operation last so long that it effectively ended non-volunteer military forces. These factors, combined with our own interference, are going to make their cultural revolution much more violent.

True..the middle east has yet to enjoy the fruits of a feminist revolution. We can only hope one day it will happen...for the benefit of the entire middle eastern nations.

As to the war comment: ....with Afghanistan...the 25 year pummeling by the Soviets..I think constitutes as our two world wars put together. They staved off that huge modern army for 25 years with little more then early industrial weapons. They lost two generations of young men...leaving the old, women and young children behind in the bloody wake. Couple that with the bit of help we eeked out towards the end of that long war, and one would think the Afghans would be a modernized and ever changed people. You'd think that the pulling back/retreat of the Soviet armed forces would have garnered more then we are seeing in this region. It's like they (Afghanies) all went back 1000 years...living much the way their ancestors did. Makes absolutely no sense what so ever to me.

I'm shocked these women are'nt killing these men as they sleep at night. Poisoning their food...something...anything to make every man afraid to even think about harming a woman. You'd think Afghan women would be so fed up...it would make them dangerous to any male walking. Yet...these men don't seemed phased at all at the continuous atrocity they put these women through. I'm telling ya, this is a bubble that's gonna pop..and big! Can't happen soon enough in my opinion.

~Mysty

[chip]

Only women?

Pshaw...nothing to see here.

















































...........thats sarcasm for the mentally challenged

[angelicmadrigal]

I'm shocked these women are'nt killing these men as they sleep at night. Poisoning their food...something...anything to make every man afraid to even think about harming a woman. You'd think Afghan women would be so fed up...it would make them dangerous to any male walking. Yet...these men don't seemed phased at all at the continuous atrocity they put these women through. I'm telling ya, this is a bubble that's gonna pop..and big! Can't happen soon enough in my opinion.

~Mysty

Different society=different thought process

The problem with attempting to look at a culture through your own social values is you don't understand how a person has truly come to internalize those values, or how they process them. It's hard enough to figure out why someone in your own culture does things, it's even more challenging to try and figure out why someone in another culture does something as it adds another variable to the situation.

When it comes to countries taking on foreign values, it is always best to let them do so at their own pace. I tend to be the type of person who is big on non-interference. Let countries develop socially, economically, politically, etc...on their own. Eventually, they will come to the place that works best for them, even if it is NOT the place that works best for you.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Different society=different thought process

The problem with attempting to look at a culture through your own social values is you don't understand how a person has truly come to internalize those values, or how they process them. It's hard enough to figure out why someone in your own culture does things, it's even more challenging to try and figure out why someone in another culture does something as it adds another variable to the situation.

When it comes to countries taking on foreign values, it is always best to let them do so at their own pace. I tend to be the type of person who is big on non-interference. Let countries develop socially, economically, politically, etc...on their own. Eventually, they will come to the place that works best for them, even if it is NOT the place that works best for you.

Your not wrong...it's a good description of base understanding in how to deal with other cultures that differ vastly from our own. A good base line to begin with to be sure.

Now, you take someone like me...who has extensive knowledge in the personal day to day, culture and living of these women, Afghanistan, Jordanian, Palestinian, Saudi, Kuwaiti, Iraqie..I'm telling you...there's a huge storm a blowing. Fear is no longer going to keep these women in check. Religion or fear of religious retribution by some elder male isn't going to keep the storm at bay. These women, God bless them, like any human being, have reached their limit with the day to day living environment they are forced to live. It's beyond oppressive, beyond human tolerance..and the limit is almost at max capacity. Physical harm to these women is almost a day to day living norm. It's a nightmare existence that even their religion doesn't support. We can be different in culture..but we are all of the human family with human needs. In this, these women are no different from you or I. ;)

This specific story...takes place in the southern most reaches (think very rural) of Afghanistan. Some call these people backwards...we could even call them simply country folk or rubes/rednecks...to which even this storm I'm speaking too is brewing. It may take a bit longer for the full weight of that storm to be felt in these outer reaches of these rural provinces...but it is brewing..it is coming..and it' can't happen soon enough for my taste. :evil:

~Mysty

[angelicmadrigal]

Now, you take someone like me...who has extensive knowledge in the personal day to day, culture and living of these women, Afghanistan, Jordanian, Palestinian, Saudi, Kuwaiti, Iraqie..I'm telling you...there's a huge storm a blowing. Fear is no longer going to keep these women in check.

The point I was making is that change has to come from within to be truly successful, and should never attempt to be imposed from without. If it takes a violent revolution by the women then so be it. If a large majority of them decide to go elsewhere, so be it.

[CHUG]

Is it worth pointing out that the Afghani's who voted in the recent election where also members of the "Religion of Peace"?

[sgdp]

Is it worth pointing out that the Afghani's who voted in the recent election where also members of the "Religion of Peace"?

Exactly what I was thinking.

Boy, if I mentioned that 99% of people who have wronged me are Christian...

There's just no point to bringing that up. It's just hatred.

[Drawz]

I'm shocked these women are'nt killing these men as they sleep at night.

~Mysty


"A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife, he can never own both."

-George R.R. Martin
Song of Fire and Ice

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

The point I was making is that change has to come from within to be truly successful, and should never attempt to be imposed from without. If it takes a violent revolution by the women then so be it. If a large majority of them decide to go elsewhere, so be it.

Again...true. What I was adding to the base points you raise is that some of these women from some of the countries I mentioned are 'here'..meaning our country. By hook or crook..by fate or design..they are slowly speaking up and out about their day to day lives back home. These women love their culture...they want to return someday to their homes. Discussions inevitably arise about their standing as human beings in their specific cultures. This is the only area I've yet heard where pure dissatisfaction is rampet....ie the 'storm'. Add to that free conversation and idea's from women all over the world...not just American women...and whoa nelly...you've got yourself one heck of a upstart let me tell ya.

Granted, the specific OP was centered in a rural area of Afghanistan..so change is going to be slow coming. If something like this were tried in say one of the larger cities in Afghanistan...it would have resulted in riots. Taliban knew this..picked the most vulnerable of that country to pray on...in order to re-instill fear into the community. Those two women...who lost their right index fingers..sounds like no real big deal right? Sad..but not something the world would get in a uproar about right? These two women...who now have to use their left hand to help prepare/make food...which the men in their lives can't eat as it was prepared by the left hand (reads as the devils work/devils hand) any wares they make with their left hand..they can be stoned or hanged for selling goods made by the left hand and doing the devils work. This is the part that the news never brings up is it? These Taliban ****s took these woman's right index fingers as a slow death sentence...they knew it when they did it.

It is stories like this that will slowly change the confines of how the culture deals with it's women. The women themselves are pushing for that change..slow as it may be. I keep telling my male middle eastern friends as it pertains to the treatment of their women...you can't kill them all. :wall: I tell them most earnestly, either walk beside their women and follow their religion in edicts that clearly state how a woman is to be treated...or sleep with one eye open. Gets those men thinking I can tell ya that. :))

~Mysty

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

"A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife, he can never own both."

-George R.R. Martin
Song of Fire and Ice

No offense to Mr. RR Martin..but no man can own another fellow being. He can own a thing..like a knife...but never another human being. ;)

~Mysty

[angelicmadrigal]

This is the part that the news never brings up is it? These Taliban ****s took these woman's right index fingers as a slow death sentence...they knew it when they did it.


But those women made the choice to take a stand, it's a sacrifice they must have been willing to make for the good of others. It takes individuals like this, and situations like this to make others willing to be brave and stand up. So, in the end their suffering isn't in vain.

[angelicmadrigal]

. By hook or crook..by fate or design..they are slowly speaking up and out about their day to day lives back home.

Right, but they are speaking up because THEY choose to do so, not because of prssure from anyone else....hopefully.

[bitterclinger84]

Is it worth pointing out that the Afghani's who voted in the recent election where also members of the "Religion of Peace"?

You can point it out....but I'm not sure what your point would be, exactly.

[bitterclinger84]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Boy, if I mentioned that 99% of people who have wronged me are Christian...

There's just no point to bringing that up. It's just hatred.

You live in America, correct? The odds are pretty good that the majority of people you interact with, good or bad, are Christian.

Now, the real question is, did they "wrong" you because they felt it was their religious duty to do so?

Christianity isn't perfect and it has a violent past. But it is, for the most part, the past. When was the last time a Christian man cut off a woman's....anything, for any reason?

[bitterclinger84]

No offense to Mr. RR Martin..but no man can own another fellow being. He can own a thing..like a knife...but never another human being. ;)

~Mysty

I would beg to differ...but it would be cause for an entirely different thread :D

[Samm]

No offense to Mr. RR Martin..but no man can own another fellow being. He can own a thing..like a knife...but never another human being. ;)

~Mysty

I think that was Mr. Martin's point...

[Samm]

At least two people. And both were women.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/22/afghanistan.election/

My prayers are with the victims.

Where did these people get their play book? Rahm Emanuel?

[Drawz]

I think that was Mr. Martin's point...

Actually no. The quote is from a medieval fantasy series. And in context the line meant that a man can take and hold a woman by force but only if he doesn't give her any opportunity to cut his throat while he sleeps, or otherwise arrange his demise.

[sgdp]

You live in America, correct? The odds are pretty good that the majority of people you interact with, good or bad, are Christian.

Now, the real question is, did they "wrong" you because they felt it was their religious duty to do so?

Christianity isn't perfect and it has a violent past. But it is, for the most part, the past. When was the last time a Christian man cut off a woman's....anything, for any reason?

You can built a thousand churches in the ghetto, but it's still the ghetto.

[Samm]

Actually no. The quote is from a medieval fantasy series. And in context the line meant that a man can take and hold a woman by force but only if he doesn't give her any opportunity to cut his throat while he sleeps, or otherwise arrange his demise.

Exactly... which was my point.

[bitterclinger84]

You can built a thousand churches in the ghetto, but it's still the ghetto.

Well what the heck does that have to do with what I said??

[Drawz]

Exactly... which was my point.

Oh, ok. I misunderstood your post.

[sgdp]

Well what the heck does that have to do with what I said??

Who cares what the justification is? Who cares whether they chopped off an appendage over raping and shooting? That's the point.

This infantile game of, "Well, they're worse than we are," doesn't cut it for me.

[smyrna]

The least I can do is to give the Taliban my finger too.



There...dead center...see it?

[bitterclinger84]

Who cares what the justification is? Who cares whether they chopped off an appendage over raping and shooting? That's the point.

This infantile game of, "Well, they're worse than we are," doesn't cut it for me.

You missed my point. There IS no justification for rape, murder, theft, anything like that. But your assertion that "99% of the people who have wronged me were Christians" misses the cause and effect of the situation being discussed.

Say you have two women who are murdered, one by a Christian and one by a Muslim. The Christian claims he murdered his wife because she was cheating on him, but doesn't use his religion to justify it. The Muslim says he murdered his wife because she was cheating on him AND because his religion DEMANDED it.

Which murder is worse? Neither, IMO. Two women are still dead. The difference is that one man tried to use his god to justify his murder, where the other didn't. Do some Christians try to use God to justify atrocities? Yes. But there is a vocal majority that will condemn them for it. Where is the VOCAL majority of Islam, condemning acts like this??

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I think that was Mr. Martin's point...

Originally Posted by Drawz View Post
"A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife, he can never own both."

-George R.R. Martin
Song of Fire and Ice

K...reading it again..and I don't get what you got out of this Mr. Martin point. A man can own a woman...pretty damn clear Samm...ownership..like a thing...or...he can own a knife..again..fairly clear...ownership of a thing.... but he can never 'own' both? Well no duh as the first thing can't be owned in the first damn place.

Equating a woman and a knife as a tool/thing/same... to own. Doesn't add up at all in my head that he was trying to say one can never own a human being. :confused:

Maybe I'd have to really read between the lines and try to wrap my head around some odd sense of opposites in order to pull what you got out of what this fantasy author wrote. Perhaps in a better context it would have made more sense?..as it stands, it makes no sense at all as it pertains to the story/OP.

~Mysty

[sgdp]

You missed my point. There IS no justification for rape, murder, theft, anything like that. But your assertion that "99% of the people who have wronged me were Christians" misses the cause and effect of the situation being discussed.

Say you have two women who are murdered, one by a Christian and one by a Muslim. The Christian claims he murdered his wife because she was cheating on him, but doesn't use his religion to justify it. The Muslim says he murdered his wife because she was cheating on him AND because his religion DEMANDED it.

Which murder is worse? Neither, IMO. Two women are still dead. The difference is that one man tried to use his god to justify his murder, where the other didn't. Do some Christians try to use God to justify atrocities? Yes. But there is a vocal majority that will condemn them for it. Where is the VOCAL majority of Islam, condemning acts like this??

There's a log in the Christians' eye. As far as I'm concerned, Christians need to straighten out their own problems before they go mucking about in others'. Not using religion as the "demand" behind the vicious act is nothing. Christians violate their own rules, their own god's commandments.

And where is the vocal majority? You must not be looking.

99% of the people who have wronged me are/were Christian. And they abused their religious doctrine just as much as a man chopping off a finger. No ifs, ands, or buts.

[Samm]

Originally Posted by Drawz View Post
"A man can own a woman or a man can own a knife, he can never own both."

-George R.R. Martin
Song of Fire and Ice

K...reading it again..and I don't get what you got out of this Mr. Martin point. A man can own a woman...pretty damn clear Samm...ownership..like a thing...or...he can own a knife..again..fairly clear...ownership of a thing.... but he can never 'own' both? Well no duh as the first thing can't be owned in the first damn place.

Equating a woman and a knife as a tool/thing/same... to own. Doesn't add up at all in my head that he was trying to say one can never own a human being. :confused:

Maybe I'd have to really read between the lines and try to wrap my head around some odd sense of opposites in order to pull what you got out of what this fantasy author wrote. Perhaps in a better context it would have made more sense?..as it stands, it makes no sense at all as it pertains to the story/OP.

~Mysty


This is off topic, but what the quote by Martin means is that if you cannot allow an "owned" woman to have access to a knife (because she might kill you with it) then you do not own her. Pretty simple metaphor.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

This is off topic, but what the quote by Martin means is that if you cannot allow an "owned" woman to have access to a knife (because she might kill you with it) then you do not own her. Pretty simple metaphor.

Simple metaphor...hmmm...maybe so...although it didn't seem so simple on it's face to me. You explained it much better after the fact then the supposed simple metaphor ever did on it's face.

Maybe I was having a dumb moment?....ya know that kind I mean?...where you loose the ability to spell a simple word like 'who'?; or the use of were or where? Happens...:((:shifty:...getting old...brain starts to fry out like a bad circuit board. lol.

Oh...and an 'owned' woman, within the context of this supposed metaphor...horrific premise as it is to use so this supposed metaphor works...can't have access to a knife...because she WILL eventually kill you...not might...will. ;)

~Mysty

[bitterclinger84]

There's a log in the Christians' eye. As far as I'm concerned, Christians need to straighten out their own problems before they go mucking about in others'. Not using religion as the "demand" behind the vicious act is nothing. Christians violate their own rules, their own god's commandments.

And where is the vocal majority? You must not be looking.

99% of the people who have wronged me are/were Christian. And they abused their religious doctrine just as much as a man chopping off a finger. No ifs, ands, or buts.

So...people with issues don't have any right to speak out against other issues?

You brought Christians into this, not me. I never said we were better people.

Your post here gets a little more to the heart of things. When Christians "wrong" someone, they are breaking their laws. When things like this happen, where are the religious leaders who say "This breaks X commandment of Islam"?

I'm no better than anyone and worse than many. But that does NOT mean I should sit and be silent in the face of injustice.

[bitterclinger84]

Simple metaphor...hmmm...maybe so...although it didn't seem so simple on it's face to me. You explained it much better after the fact then the supposed simple metaphor ever did on it's face.

Maybe I was having a dumb moment?....ya know that kind I mean?...where you loose the ability to spell a simple word like 'who'?; or the use of were or where? Happens...:((:shifty:...getting old...brain starts to fry out like a bad circuit board. lol.

Oh...and an 'owned' woman, within the context of this supposed metaphor...horrific premise as it is to use so this supposed metaphor works...can't have access to a knife...because she WILL eventually kill you...not might...will. ;)

~Mysty

Hmmm...you assume all women think like you. There are women who are perfectly happy in relationships that other women would be horrified by. It comes down to consent. If you're forcing a woman to be in a certain kind of relationship, that's wrong. But if she consents to the relationship...I don't see the issue. There are Muslim women who have no issues with their place in society and that's fine. But the women who do have issues with it should be allowed to live their lives their own way.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Hmmm...you assume all women think like you. There are women who are perfectly happy in relationships that other women would be horrified by. It comes down to consent. If you're forcing a woman to be in a certain kind of relationship, that's wrong. But if she consents to the relationship...I don't see the issue. There are Muslim women who have no issues with their place in society and that's fine. But the women who do have issues with it should be allowed to live their lives their own way.

I assume no such thing. Project much? :shifty: And I have posted almost the same sentiment in previous post..there are many Muslim women who love their 'culture' but hate the oppression, abuse and violence that befall many in Muslim dominate countries.

You are correct in some women have no issue in genuflecting to a culture/religion that tells them what their place is. Abuse, threats of death, oppression, mutilation...any human being has an issue with it...it's whether they tolerate and for how long is the issue here. Culture and religion norms...well take the Amish for instance. Perfectly peaceful and happy people..but then those people choose to stay in that environment..not be beaten into it.

But then..you didn't really read what I posted the first three times...took my point into another tangent that I didn't speak too..and ran with it. Hey..it's ok..no biggie...:cool:

~Mysty

[bitterclinger84]

I assume no such thing. Project much? :shifty: And I have posted almost the same sentiment in previous post..there are many Muslim women who love their 'culture' but hate the oppression, abuse and violence that befall many in Muslim dominate countries.

You are correct in some women have no issue in genuflecting to a culture/religion that tells them what their place is. Abuse, threats of death, oppression, mutilation...any human being has an issue with it...it's whether they tolerate and for how long is the issue here. Culture and religion norms...well take the Amish for instance. Perfectly peaceful and happy people..but then those people choose to stay in that environment..not be beaten into it.

But then..you didn't really read what I posted the first three times...took my point into another tangent that I didn't speak too..and ran with it. Hey..it's ok..no biggie...:cool:

~Mysty

I did read what you posted, but came away with the impression that Muslim women, in general, are chomping at the bit for a revolution. *shrug*

If we're saying that no person will accept being forced into a situation for any appreciable length of time, that I can agree with. If I originally misunderstood your intent, I apologize :)

Some women do believe that no woman is happy unless they're living a "free" or "uninhibited" life. I get a little testy with those women ;)

[Samm]

Simple metaphor...hmmm...maybe so...although it didn't seem so simple on it's face to me. You explained it much better after the fact then the supposed simple metaphor ever did on it's face.

Maybe I was having a dumb moment?....ya know that kind I mean?...where you loose the ability to spell a simple word like 'who'?; or the use of were or where? Happens...:((:shifty:...getting old...brain starts to fry out like a bad circuit board. lol.

Oh...and an 'owned' woman, within the context of this supposed metaphor...horrific premise as it is to use so this supposed metaphor works...can't have access to a knife...because she WILL eventually kill you...not might...will. ;)

~Mysty
That's because you women libbers always over react emotionally regarding any statement that might possibly insinuate the demeaning of women. :razz:

:shifty:


(... Samm ducks and runs for cover...)

;)

[angelicmadrigal]

But the women who do have issues with it should be allowed to live their lives their own way.

The problem is in those types of societies they often are not free to live their lives teh way they see fit.

[AeroEngineer]

Is it worth pointing out that the Afghani's who voted in the recent election where also members of the "Religion of Peace"?

Thats what I was going to post.

As to the person asking when moderates are going to make a stand- does voting at the risk of having your fingers cut off count as making a stand?

[sgdp]

So...people with issues don't have any right to speak out against other issues?

You brought Christians into this, not me. I never said we were better people.

Your post here gets a little more to the heart of things. When Christians "wrong" someone, they are breaking their laws. When things like this happen, where are the religious leaders who say "This breaks X commandment of Islam"?

I'm no better than anyone and worse than many. But that does NOT mean I should sit and be silent in the face of injustice.

Of course people have a right to speak out against other issues. But this isn't really "speaking out" to benefit anybody. The thread title itself is insulting to an entire religion.

I've heard more than enough times this mocking "religion of peace" crap. 99% of the time I hear that phrase, it's meant to imply that the Qu'ran actually orders people to kill and maim for 72 virgins and crap like that. (People are WAY off on that one.) I've had Muslim friends suffer under that kind of ignorance.

Oh, and you'd be surprised how many Islamic clerics and the like speak out to BENEFIT others. Just because the American news media doesn't report it doesn't mean it's not happening every day.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I did read what you posted, but came away with the impression that Muslim women, in general, are chomping at the bit for a revolution. *shrug*

If we're saying that no person will accept being forced into a situation for any appreciable length of time, that I can agree with. If I originally misunderstood your intent, I apologize :)

Some women do believe that no woman is happy unless they're living a "free" or "uninhibited" life. I get a little testy with those women ;)

Ding ding ding...We've got a winner! :mrgreen: You got it...:cool:

Some American' women are only educated in what they already know/furthering what they already understand...which is really no education at all imo. I'm positive that the likes of the bra burning brigade will never understand that a free Muslim woman may or may not wear the hijab...may or may not strictly adhere to her religion of choice. They just don't understand it.

What some/part of the male Muslim population is doing to these women is down right criminal. It won't be tolerated forever by the female population...and there will be a uprising of that female collective to free themselves from that specific tyranny. Why..look at the women in Persia/Iran...already happening. Will it look anything like ours? No..no I doubt it very seriously. Will it be just as important and just as visceral in their day to day lives as ours was? Yup...yup yup yup ya betcha. ;)

~Mysty

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

That's because you women libbers always over react emotionally regarding any statement that might possibly insinuate the demeaning of women. :razz:

:shifty:


(... Samm ducks and runs for cover...)

;)

Hehehehe....your like a rotten little brother Sam...to cute to beat..not matter how badly ya really earned one; we bribe ya to behave with cookies instead. lmao. ;)

Tell ya what though...the day anyone claims they can own another human being...is gonna be a damn dark day for man kind. No woman can own anything or anyone but herself...including her children. A man can't own anything or anyone except himself..including his wife and kids. I believe it was Kahill Kabran who said.."our children...they come through us, but not of us".

....and that not woman lib ideology at work Samm...that my friend is being a functional rational logical human being. ;)

cookie? Chocolate chip? Oatmeal raisin? or Peanut Butter? :mrgreen:

~Mysty

[bitterclinger84]

Ding ding ding...We've got a winner! :mrgreen: You got it...:cool:

Some American' women are only educated in what they already know/furthering what they already understand...which is really no education at all imo. I'm positive that the likes of the bra burning brigade will never understand that a free Muslim woman may or may not wear the hijab...may or may not strictly adhere to her religion of choice. They just don't understand it.

What some/part of the male Muslim population is doing to these women is down right criminal. It won't be tolerated forever by the female population...and there will be a uprising of that female collective to free themselves from that specific tyranny. Why..look at the women in Persia/Iran...already happening. Will it look anything like ours? No..no I doubt it very seriously. Will it be just as important and just as visceral in their day to day lives as ours was? Yup...yup yup yup ya betcha. ;)

~Mysty

Isn't funny how people can be on the same page and never realize it?






You betcha! ;)