Metric System?

[sjgog]

What should be taught in American schools?

[Hellsbane]

Wrong forum. This needs to be in the Education forum.

[Samm]

Wrong forum. This needs to be in the Education forum.

The decision to convert to metric or not is a political issue, not educational. And public schools are also very political as a topic.

[gdoane]

When I joined the United States Navy, we used measurements like Knots for speed, Fathoms for depth and Bells for time.

I got into electronics and I was measuring volts, amps, watts and ohms.

I got into computers and I was measuring bits, bauds, Mhz and memory.

I'd say teach it all. Ignorance is only bliss until it makes you look stupid.

[Hellsbane]

The decision to convert to metric or not is a political issue, not educational. And public schools are also very political as a topic.
Hmmm, then maybe they should merge the educational forum with the political forum............ naaaahhhhhhh..

[Floydian]

I think the metric system should be taught. It's simpler, and logical.

From wikipedia- One goal of the metric system is to have a single unit for any physical quantity; another important one is not needing conversion factors when making calculations with physical quantities. All lengths and distances, for example, are measured in meters, or thousandths of a meter (millimeters), or thousands of meters (kilometer), and so on. There is no profusion of different units with different conversion factors, such as inches, feet, yards, fathoms, rods, chains, furlongs, miles, nautical miles, leagues, etc. Multiples and submultiples are related to the fundamental unit by factors of powers of ten, so that one can convert by simply moving the decimal place: 1.234 metres is 1234 millimeters, 0.001234 kilometres, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system

[AvgGuyIA]

We don't want no stinkin' metric system.

[Guvnah]

Not sure whether this article supports a "teach it all" approach, or a "one-system-only approach."

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/

Conversion shouldn't be rocket science, yet it even seems to get the best of them.

Just remember, -40 Celsius is the same as -40 Farenheit.

PS: I voted for teaching both.

[rival22]

Why wouldn't you teach both? We use the imperial system (no idea why), and pretty much the rest of the world uses the metric system. Unless you want people to leave the country and have no idea what a kilometer is or why 30 degrees feels so freakin' hot, kids have to learn.

[Erick_KS]

This reminds me of the big Metric thread we had a ways back, where supposedly Obama was going to unleash a wave of new "metric enlightenment" of sorts o'er the land...

I'm quite happy that didn't pan out. :)

[Safiel]

After the NASA Mars Lander disaster a few years ago, I would vote for a complete phase-out of Imperial Units, insomuch as it is possible. Obviously their will always be a need for Imperial Units in legacy applications. But students should at the very least be taught metrics as the primary system in which they think and apply that thought. Imperial Units should be taught, if at all, in a strictly secondary status.

As I deal greatly in international commerce, I have long been used to dealing solely in a metric world.

[Safiel]

This reminds me of the big Metric thread we had a ways back, where supposedly Obama was going to unleash a wave of new "metric enlightenment" of sorts o'er the land...

I'm quite happy that didn't pan out. :)

We aren't quite there yet. But the U.S. hand will eventually be forced by world economic realities.

[Erick_KS]

We aren't quite there yet. But the U.S. hand will eventually be forced by world economic realities.

Yes, yes, sure... It was all promised in the other thread. And quite a few good reasons on why it isn't likely to happen any time soon, either.

[curtis123]

What should be taught in American schools?

Give 'em a centimeter, and they'll take a kilometer...



It is taught in the American Schools. We just don't use it in everyday life.

Those of us who were around in the 70's will remember the failed "changover".

[sgdp]

I'd be for phasing in the metric system in this country.

[Stantz]

why would you not teach both?
not enough space in little minds to learn a whole two systems of measurement? seriously.

The metric system is pretty much standardized for scientific study across the globe, i want American kids to be as competitive as possible, challenged to learn as much as possible, and be expected to know as much as possible

i do not see any drawback to learning both.

[janer]

Many years ago - mid 70s - there was a 10 year plan to convert to metric. I was working in a fabric store at the time and all the conversion charts had inches and centimeters. Math texts dealt with inches/feet and meters/kilometers. There were traffic signs that did the same. Everywhere that one might encounter a conversion, there was feet+meters, ounces+liters, etc.
What didn't change? The public's preference. Outside of areas where there are different values (science, et. al.), people want to use what has always worked for them - they did not want to be told why metric was better. Ten years passed and the conversions faded away. Thirty years later, the US public continues to measure distances in miles, fabric in yards and ingredients in cups and ounces.
I don't have a problem with learning both. It was the government plan to force a conversion on the public that didn't work.

[NascarGirl2448]

Both. I learned both in school and was glad I did, because the rest of the world uses the metric system. We use the Imperial system in this country, but when you travel abroad, they use metric.

Reminds me of the time my uncle went to Mexico and wondered why on earth people would be allowed to go 80 mph on the roads there (which were worse than our unpaved dirt roads in rural areas of this country) until he finally realized that it meant 80 KILOMETERS, much slower speed.

Personally I think we should join the rest of the world and use the metric system.

[Charlie A]

We already use the metric system exclusively in the military. It is a vastly superior system for making calculations.

[LibertyinAtl]

I would have to change the lie I tell all the ladies?
lets see 8'' turns into 20.3cm Yeah...I like centimeters better...Same lie just larger number...
See I know how it works and what is important...

[jeepers]

When I joined the United States Navy, we used measurements like Knots for speed, Fathoms for depth and Bells for time.

I got into electronics and I was measuring volts, amps, watts and ohms.

I got into computers and I was measuring bits, bauds, Mhz and memory.

I'd say teach it all. Ignorance is only bliss until it makes you look stupid.

Yep, and in pharmacology, we learned both the old fashioned apothecary system, the metric system and the imperial system. Ya never know how an order would be written and you needed to understand it.

5cc = 5 ml = 1 tsp (which is a basic KITCHEN equivalent, but most commonly used by people)

TEACH IT ALL. It's not that hard. It's not like you're saying 'here's some advanced calculus, learn it America!'

30 cc is an ounce (your average medicine cup for liquid measurement)

240 cc is 8 ounces (a coffee cup)

That little bottle of water you pick up at a convenience store, a liter.

Easy peasy.

Wouldn't take much effort to have all measurements be in multi-form. If we saw it frequently and EVERYWHERE, learning would happen, without much effort.

[Charlie A]

Yep, and in pharmacology, we learned both the old fashioned apothecary system, the metric system and the imperial system. Ya never know how an order would be written and you needed to understand it.

5cc = 5 ml = 1 tsp (which is a basic KITCHEN equivalent, but most commonly used by people)

TEACH IT ALL. It's not that hard. It's not like you're saying 'here's some advanced calculus, learn it America!'

30 cc is an ounce (your average medicine cup for liquid measurement)

240 cc is 8 ounces (a coffee cup)

That little bottle of water you pick up at a convenience store, a liter.

Easy peasy.

Wouldn't take much effort to have all measurements be in multi-form. If we saw it frequently and EVERYWHERE, learning would happen, without much effort.

We did manage to lose a Mars probe because a programmer confused metric and Imperial units. I think while we should teach both, we should only use metric in business and government.

[jeepers]

We did manage to lose a Mars probe because a programmer confused metric and Imperial units. I think while we should teach both, we should only use metric in business and government.

You cannot confuse human error with a lack of priority. One person's confusion and he makes an error doesn't mean what the intention was by the program, was in error. If the program intended that metric be used, the program was fine, it was the human that made the mistake.

Human error will always be with us, no matter what system we use. Crap happens.

[sjgog]

It seems ironic to me that the America will likely be forced to phase out the Imperial system at the same time economy forces the country to become less imperalistic.

[gdoane]

One thing I've never gotten is on road signs they always say "Exit 1/4 Mile" and I have never seen a car odometer that could read in quarters of a mile. They all read in tenths. They should put the signs 2/10ths of a mile from the exit and say "Exit 0.2 Mile".

Another dumb thing I've seen is the dual speed limit signs that say "55 MPH/88 KPH". There's no 88 KPH mark on a speedometer. They should just use an ounce of common sense and call it an even 90 KPH.

[KeithBlubberman]

I can remember when I was in the 6th grade (elementary school) which was back in '76 and we were learning the metric system in order to prepare for our "country going metric". Which, as we know, never occured. I didn't realize that they stopped teaching the metric system.

[mwevans1234]

I would have to change the lie I tell all the ladies?
lets see 8'' turns into 20.3cm Yeah...I like centimeters better...Same lie just larger number...
See I know how it works and what is important...

Q: Why can't women measure properly?

A: Because we've been telling them for years that this - [_________________] is 8 inches.


To answer the OP, both should be taught, because both are used in this country.

[Apatriot]

We should teach both, at this time, and we should be phasing out the American imperial system (which is different than the English imperial system).

I can pretty much think in metric in all ways except temperature.

[badkarma]

Many years ago - mid 70s - there was a 10 year plan to convert to metric. I was working in a fabric store at the time and all the conversion charts had inches and centimeters. Math texts dealt with inches/feet and meters/kilometers. There were traffic signs that did the same. Everywhere that one might encounter a conversion, there was feet+meters, ounces+liters, etc.
What didn't change? The public's preference. Outside of areas where there are different values (science, et. al.), people want to use what has always worked for them - they did not want to be told why metric was better. Ten years passed and the conversions faded away. Thirty years later, the US public continues to measure distances in miles, fabric in yards and ingredients in cups and ounces.
I don't have a problem with learning both. It was the government plan to force a conversion on the public that didn't work.
And that, children, is why pop comes in a 2 liter bottle!

[janer]

And that, children, is why pop comes in a 2 liter bottle!

Exactly. This size was marketed around the time of the Great Conversion and hung on, even though cans and bottles of soda (or, pop, as we said when I lived in the Midwest) are in ounces, milk and cream are in pints, quarts and gallons.

[SFC(R)L]

English.

[Samm]

I'd be for phasing in the metric system in this country.

Attempts to "phase" in the metric system is exactly why we are not on the metric system now. When changing from one system to another phasing just does not work... cold turkey is the only way to go.

What makes the conversion difficult is the need to convert units in your mind. If you go cold turkey, no conversion is required... you simply get used to the new units.

[Apatriot]

Attempts to "phase" in the metric system is exactly why we are not on the metric system now. When changing from one system to another phasing just does not work... cold turkey is the only way to go.

What makes the conversion difficult is the need to convert units in your mind. If you go cold turkey, no conversion is required... you simply get used to the new units.


The problem is that our politicians don't have the balls for a cold turkey converstion. Look at how we kept delaying the digital TV thing.

There is no real good reason to keep the traditional system except comfort.

[Alan J]

I think we should teach students the metric system only. The Imperial system is ridiculous, and won't even be in use by the time these kids graduate.

[Agent655]

I think we should teach students the metric system only. The Imperial system is ridiculous, and won't even be in use by the time these kids graduate.

I bet you could find that same idea in quotes from the mid 70's.....

[jimjames418]

why would you not teach both?
not enough space in little minds to learn a whole two systems of measurement? seriously.

The metric system is pretty much standardized for scientific study across the globe, i want American kids to be as competitive as possible, challenged to learn as much as possible, and be expected to know as much as possible

i do not see any drawback to learning both.
When did they stop teaching both? When I was in school back in the 1930's I was taught both, and when my kids were in school they were taught both, and when my grandkids were in school they were taught both.

Is it just were we lived at time or what?

[Samm]

I think we should teach students the metric system only. The Imperial system is ridiculous, and won't even be in use by the time these kids graduate.

You put a lot of faith in politicians there...

As a civil engineer, I prefer English to metric units. They are more appropriate for designing and constructing the things we do. Millimeters are too small; centimeters are too large; 1/10 of an inch (we engineers "metricated" English units many years ago by rejecting the architects "fraction" system) is perfect for fine measurements. Centimeters are too small; meters are too large; feet are just right for intermediate measurements.

But that said... metric units work just fine; it just makes for some really odd looking dimensions for things we use everyday and makes it a lot more difficult doing math in your head - having to carry decimals in most calculations. For instance; a standard lane width on our roadways is 12 feet which was developed empirically by the Am Ascn of State Highway Officials. (AASTO); with a metric road that standard width is 3.6 meters (11.8 ft) which may be acceptable, but it does not relate to anything other than the math to convert and round.

In the 90s the FHWA produced Metric design standards and the States were given the go-a-head to voluntarily convert to Metric before the mandatory conversion. Several States did convert immediately; Alaska was one of those. It cost considerable dollars to convert, but we designed and constructed several highway projects in metric and other than a little wining from Contractors, everything went fairly well except with regard to structural steel which was not available in metric sizes so plans had to use "hard" unit conversions. Of course then Congress (once again... :rolleyes:) got cold feet and cancelled the mandate, so we had to spend hundreds of thousands more dollars to convert back.

PS... We need to teach our children both systems. Even if we fully convert to the metric system, the old system will not go away. All of our buildings, structures, infrastructure and the archived plans for all are in English. Ignorance of that system would cause tremendous difficulty and would potentially cause serious errors when new must interface with old. Less education is never better than more education.

[Samm]

The problem is that our politicians don't have the balls for a cold turkey converstion. Look at how we kept delaying the digital TV thing.

There is no real good reason to keep the traditional system except comfort.

I agree entirely... other than for my selfish reasons that I already enumerated. But being retired, even those are no longer valid. ;)

[Safiel]

Having read the various posts talking about phase in versus cold turkey.

I would very much agree that cold turkey is the ONLY way to go and the fact that they attempted "phase-in" is why metrification failed in the 1970's.

In every other country that has gone metric, "cold turkey" was the method used. That means all street signs in metric ONLY. That means all commercial products must be sold in metric ONLY units and the product, if applicable, must be sold in metric base units, with no imperial units permitted on the packaging. For example, I could not sell 3.78 Liters of Milk. Rather, I would have to increase the package to 4.0 Liters.

I am not denying that the changeover would not be annoying. And there would be a one time cost as factories retooled to the new sizes. But it has got to happen and sooner rather than later.

[Alan J]

I bet you could find that same idea in quotes from the mid 70's.....

Perhaps.

[Alan J]

You put a lot of faith in politicians there...

As a civil engineer, I prefer English to metric units. They are more appropriate for designing and constructing the things we do. Millimeters are too small; centimeters are too large; 1/10 of an inch (we engineers "metricated" English units many years ago by rejecting the architects "fraction" system) is perfect for fine measurements. Centimeters are too small; meters are too large; feet are just right for intermediate measurements.

As someone who has tried to measure things before, I prefer metric units. We use a base 10 numeral system (whether that's the best system we could be using is up for debate). It's silly to use a measurement system that has no relation to that whatsoever. It makes even simple calculations difficult. Especially when (as pretty much everybody outside of the engineering world does) you use fractional measurements instead of decimal ones.

The actual size of the units really makes no difference. It is just as easy for me to imagine myself being 190.5 cm as it is to imagine myself being 6'3'' It's no less inconvenient than the Imperial system.


But that said... metric units work just fine; it just makes for some really odd looking dimensions for things we use everyday and makes it a lot more difficult doing math in your head - having to carry decimals in most calculations. For instance; a standard lane width on our roadways is 12 feet which was developed empirically by the Am Ascn of State Highway Officials. (AASTO); with a metric road that standard width is 3.6 meters (11.8 ft) which may be acceptable, but it does not relate to anything other than the math to convert and round.

Carrying decimal places is a great deal easier than doing arithmetic with fractions, and then having to convert everything either into feet or inches. I can do one of those things in my head in a matter of seconds.

The width of road lanes is a result of our usage of the Imperial system. 12 feet is an entirely arbitrary choice of width.

[Samm]

When did they stop teaching both? When I was in school back in the 1930's I was taught both, and when my kids were in school they were taught both, and when my grandkids were in school they were taught both.

Is it just were we lived at time or what?

Gad... you are old aren't you! :eek:

;)

I learned the metric system when I was in HS in the early 60s; and my children were taught metric in elementary school. The OP does not claim that it is not being taught; it only questions what should be taught.

[Samm]

As someone who has tried to measure things before, I prefer metric units. We use a base 10 numeral system (whether that's the best system we could be using is up for debate). It's silly to use a measurement system that has no relation to that whatsoever. It makes even simple calculations difficult. Especially when (as pretty much everybody outside of the engineering world does) you use fractional measurements instead of decimal ones.

The actual size of the units really makes no difference. It is just as easy for me to imagine myself being 190.5 cm as it is to imagine myself being 6'3'' It's no less inconvenient than the Imperial system.


Carrying decimal places is a great deal easier than doing arithmetic with fractions, and then having to convert everything either into feet or inches. I can do one of those things in my head in a matter of seconds.

As I said, Engineers got rid of the fractions decades ago; we use a metric system; 1/100 of a foot. 1/100; 1/10; and the foot are very appropriate units for the things that we do.

In design... engineers use "engineer's scales" which use inches and tenths of inches (and ratios of)... for one specific reason. Architects use inches and fractions of inches and so does the construction and construction material industry and engineers have to work with them.


The width of road lanes is a result of our usage of the Imperial system. 12 feet is an entirely arbitrary choice of width.
But not nearly as arbitrary as 3.6 meters.

In fact, 12 ft was not arbitrary... it developed empirically over the years as motor vehicles began to become common. It was developed both as a function of the size of vehicles (resulting in highway capacity), but also as a function of safety. A 3.6 meter wide lane is not as safe as a 12 foot lane. The difference may be imperceptible and 3.6 meters is likely the standard width that would have been adopted had we been metric at the time, but regardless that, the fact remains it is less safe and has lower capacity than a 12 ft width.

[captusa]

Why wouldn't you teach both? We use the imperial system (no idea why), and pretty much the rest of the world uses the metric system. Unless you want people to leave the country and have no idea what a kilometer is or why 30 degrees feels so freakin' hot, kids have to learn.

Did you ever wonder why 98.6 is considered normal body temperature ?
Since it is only an approximation wouldn't 981/2 be more logical ?
The reason is 98.6 F is equal to 37 C and the original tests were done in Europe.

Stange that the USA was the 1st country to put its money on a logical decimal system and the last country to abandon the English system. (England was the last country to use a decimal system for money).

[captusa]

As someone who has tried to measure things before, I prefer metric units. We use a base 10 numeral system (whether that's the best system we could be using is up for debate). It's silly to use a measurement system that has no relation to that whatsoever. It makes even simple calculations difficult. Especially when (as pretty much everybody outside of the engineering world does) you use fractional measurements instead of decimal ones.

The actual size of the units really makes no difference. It is just as easy for me to imagine myself being 190.5 cm as it is to imagine myself being 6'3'' It's no less inconvenient than the Imperial system.




Carrying decimal places is a great deal easier than doing arithmetic with fractions, and then having to convert everything either into feet or inches. I can do one of those things in my head in a matter of seconds.

The width of road lanes is a result of our usage of the Imperial system. 12 feet is an entirely arbitrary choice of width.

The main problem with the English system is most people who think they know it DON'T.
How many drams in an ounce ?
How many grains in a pound ?
How many chains are there in a mile ?
How many hands in a foot ?(that most people know)
How much heavier is a pound of gold than a pound of feathers ?
How much heavier is an ounce of feathers than an ounce of gold ?

All similar questions would be easy if the units were metric.

[Clintville]

We already learn the metric system in school. The whole thing should just switch to the metric system. Sure it makes our buildings and rollercoasters seem smaller, but it makes way more sense.

[Sinister Rouge]

I ran track and cross country all through high school. Both sports measure in metric (100m, 200m, 800m, 1600m, 5K, etc.). I've been measuring distance in my head in metric ever since, and it's a much better system.
Metric is superior to imperial.

[MrShotShot]

All I know is that we were taught it in 3rd grade - circa 1976 - because everyone was going to switch over and it was the wave of the future.

.............

[ThrowCop]

I think in metric for the most part ( show me something from 100-500mm in length & I'll get it within 5mm) but some Imperial units remain.

Room sizes, square feet, human weight & height, temperature in normal atmospheric ranges.

Imperial units need to be gone. We are at least slightly holding back our kids because in so many fields, good sense has prevailed & they are already using the metric system.

[WJStafford]

I weigh 15 stone...

[snagswolf]

They tried to force-feed us with the Metric System back in the 1970s, and we refused delivery.

[captusa]

I ran track and cross country all through high school. Both sports measure in metric (100m, 200m, 800m, 1600m, 5K, etc.). I've been measuring distance in my head in metric ever since, and it's a much better system.
Metric is superior to imperial.

Why do they run the 1500m instead of 4 full laps to make 1600m and be almost exactly a mile ?

[DLaw911]

While I'm used to both systems, the fact is getting people to learn to divide by 12, or 36 is much harder than telling them to move a decimal point one place to the left. Especially given the caliber of today's school grads.

[jimjames418]

The main problem with the English system is most people who think they know it DON'T.
How many drams in an ounce ?
How many grains in a pound ?
How many chains are there in a mile ?
How many hands in a foot ?(that most people know)
How much heavier is a pound of gold than a pound of feathers ?
How much heavier is an ounce of feathers than an ounce of gold ?

All similar questions would be easy if the units were metric.
A pound of feathers is heavier than a pound of gold. That is because gold and silver are measured in Troy Units. ;)

Troy Pound (0.37kg):
A mass unit is used to measure precious metals. There are 12 troy ounces in every troy pound. One troy pound is equal to 373 grams.

[PeterGriffin]

"Hey sweetie, I'm like, 28 centimeters" just doesn't have the same ring at the bar.

IME, if you're working for any company that isn't ISO certified, the clock is ticking. Not on when you'll be converting, but to when your desk is up at auction.

[Samm]

The main problem with the English system is most people who think they know it DON'T.
How many drams in an ounce ?
How many grains in a pound ?
How many chains are there in a mile ?
How many hands in a foot ?(that most people know)
How much heavier is a pound of gold than a pound of feathers ?
How much heavier is an ounce of feathers than an ounce of gold ?

All similar questions would be easy if the units were metric.

None of those comparisons are within the US Standard system of measurement. Drams (and stones), chains (and rods, furlongs etc.), hands etc. are all "other" outdated English units (although horse people still insist on using hands.) Only grains are commonly used in this country (and around the world) as they are tied to the Troy system of weights which is used by jewelers, metallurgists and of course... reloaders.

[Samm]

I weigh 15 stone...

I wonder... if you go on a diet and drop a stone... does it hurt? :think:

[Antrel]

I learned and practiced metric in the military, so it doesn't matter much to me either way. However, both should probably be taught and hopefully someday we can integrate into metric.

[AeroEngineer]

Metric.

Using imperial units for mass and power conversions is a royal PITA.

[Apatriot]

As I said, Engineers got rid of the fractions decades ago; we use a metric system; 1/100 of a foot. 1/100; 1/10; and the foot are very appropriate units for the things that we do.

In design... engineers use "engineer's scales" which use inches and tenths of inches (and ratios of)... for one specific reason. Architects use inches and fractions of inches and so does the construction and construction material industry and engineers have to work with them.



But not nearly as arbitrary as 3.6 meters.

In fact, 12 ft was not arbitrary... it developed empirically over the years as motor vehicles began to become common. It was developed both as a function of the size of vehicles (resulting in highway capacity), but also as a function of safety. A 3.6 meter wide lane is not as safe as a 12 foot lane. The difference may be imperceptible and 3.6 meters is likely the standard width that would have been adopted had we been metric at the time, but regardless that, the fact remains it is less safe and has lower capacity than a 12 ft width.
That's just because 3.6 meters is 2.8 inches or 7 cm shy of being 12 feet.

[King Cantona]

When I joined the United States Navy, we used measurements like Knots for speed, Fathoms for depth and Bells for time.

I got into electronics and I was measuring volts, amps, watts and ohms.

I got into computers and I was measuring bits, bauds, Mhz and memory.

I'd say teach it all. Ignorance is only bliss until it makes you look stupid.

Yeah, it is actually a more sensible way of doing things (I still adhere to the imperial measurements that I was taught) because it is easier to add up in multiples of ten than all the different imperial measurements...

Though if you said I said that I'll deny it....;)....

[King Cantona]

Why wouldn't you teach both? We use the imperial system (no idea why), and pretty much the rest of the world uses the metric system. Unless you want people to leave the country and have no idea what a kilometer is or why 30 degrees feels so freakin' hot, kids have to learn.

Yeah, a kilometre is 5/8 of a mile, that's something you learn before driving sur le continent...

Those bloody french, they drive on the wrong side of the road as well you know...;)...

[Pudge]

The only reason people don't want metric is because it will be a drag to change all the highway signs.

That, and a good dose of American stubbornness that wants to be above and separate from the rest of the world.

[Samm]

That's just because 3.6 meters is 2.8 inches or 7 cm shy of being 12 feet.

Actually 5.76 cm ... or about 2-17/64 inches. :snooty:

... or 0.002863 chains. Gunter's chains that is; not Ramden's. If it was Ramden's chains it would be 0.004338. :razz:


P.S. ... I did all those conversions in my head, so if I am off a wee bit, cut me slack. ;)

[Samm]

The only reason people don't want metric is because it will be a drag to change all the highway signs.

That, and a good dose of American stubbornness that wants to be above and separate from the rest of the world.

There is no problem with changing all the highway signs that money won't solve.




And we know that Congress has absolutely no problem spending money.

[meggers49]

Not sure whether this article supports a "teach it all" approach, or a "one-system-only approach."

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/

Conversion shouldn't be rocket science, yet it even seems to get the best of them.

Just remember, -40 Celsius is the same as -40 Farenheit.

PS: I voted for teaching both.

there are a lot of easily remembered measurements. we use both in medicine and we have been taught both forever. it harms no one to learn more than one thing.

personally, i switch between one or the other depending on which makes the calculation easier.

there are really much more important things to worry about in life.

[meggers49]

We aren't quite there yet. But the U.S. hand will eventually be forced by world economic realities.

they've been saying that for over 40 years.

[meggers49]

We did manage to lose a Mars probe because a programmer confused metric and Imperial units. I think while we should teach both, we should only use metric in business and government.

because he's an idiot we suffer?

fah.....

teach both. he should have known better. I weigh myself in pounds. I weigh my patients in whichever. I measure my medications in mg/kg.......not hard. do it every day.

i don't confuse the number of pounds the person weighs for kg.....doesn't happen.

maybe mr NASA should not have had his head someplace dark and unsanitary when he was working.

[meggers49]

One thing I've never gotten is on road signs they always say "Exit 1/4 Mile" and I have never seen a car odometer that could read in quarters of a mile. They all read in tenths. They should put the signs 2/10ths of a mile from the exit and say "Exit 0.2 Mile".

Another dumb thing I've seen is the dual speed limit signs that say "55 MPH/88 KPH". There's no 88 KPH mark on a speedometer. They should just use an ounce of common sense and call it an even 90 KPH.

silly, all cars have digital readouts for their speedometers doncha know?


usually, they have a red mark on the 'important' speeds so those unaware can "know" without knowing

[meggers49]

The main problem with the English system is most people who think they know it DON'T.
How many drams in an ounce ?
How many grains in a pound ?
How many chains are there in a mile ?
How many hands in a foot ?(that most people know)
How much heavier is a pound of gold than a pound of feathers ?
How much heavier is an ounce of feathers than an ounce of gold ?

All similar questions would be easy if the units were metric.

interesting questions.....the last two are interesting in that you could say depending on which scale you're using that a pound is a pound, unless you are measuring in (spelling is my issue here) avoirdupois vs troy. The bigger question is volume.

[meggers49]

The main problem with the English system is most people who think they know it DON'T.
How many drams in an ounce ?
How many grains in a pound ?
How many chains are there in a mile ?
How many hands in a foot ?(that most people know)
How much heavier is a pound of gold than a pound of feathers ?
How much heavier is an ounce of feathers than an ounce of gold ?

All similar questions would be easy if the units were metric.

(there are 15 or 16 minims/cc depending on which number you want to use to make math easier) there are 60 minims in a dram, 1 dram= 4 cc. 1oz = 30 cc. now, we haven't used minims, drams or grains (except occasionally for certain medicines but even that has changed......although interestingly it causes some oddities in the mgs in some pills....but i digress) in pretty much 30 years.

Aspirin used to be measured in grains. gr X = 650 mg of aspirin. ...... we've morphed, but there are those of us who still remember the 'old way'. it hasn't killed any of us.

[meggers49]

I think in metric for the most part ( show me something from 100-500mm in length & I'll get it within 5mm) but some Imperial units remain.

Room sizes, square feet, human weight & height, temperature in normal atmospheric ranges.

Imperial units need to be gone. We are at least slightly holding back our kids because in so many fields, good sense has prevailed & they are already using the metric system.

you really can't have it be GONE because all existing buildings are measured in feet and inches. the conversion is nightmarish if you're looking to replace plumbing, windows, doors, etc.

The fact is, we are a country that uses both and we manage just fine. why does it have to change? seriously. what difference does it make? none. except it will cost a fortune to replace signs and retools all our manufacturing. not worth it.

[meggers49]

The only reason people don't want metric is because it will be a drag to change all the highway signs.

That, and a good dose of American stubbornness that wants to be above and separate from the rest of the world.

works for me.

[nortman]

When I joined the United States Navy, we used measurements like Knots for speed, Fathoms for depth and Bells for time.

I got into electronics and I was measuring volts, amps, watts and ohms.

I got into computers and I was measuring bits, bauds, Mhz and memory.

I'd say teach it all. Ignorance is only bliss until it makes you look stupid.
I once heard the statement, "if ignorance is bliss, would someone please explain Howard Metzenbaum to me". I always loved that one, it seemed so appropriate.


As for measurements, I agree, teach it all. In medicine, we use a lot of metric measurements. Kilos, cc, ml, cm. Very seldom do we ever use Imperial, it would be too confusing to switch back and forth and the metric system is very user friendly for small measurements.

[JeffR]

We lose billions of dollars a year because we don't completely convert to the metric system.

[nortman]

Q: Why can't women measure properly?

A: Because we've been telling them for years that this - [_________________] is 8 inches.


To answer the OP, both should be taught, because both are used in this country.:rolleyes:
:))

[nortman]

Exactly. This size was marketed around the time of the Great Conversion and hung on, even though cans and bottles of soda (or, pop, as we said when I lived in the Midwest) are in ounces, milk and cream are in pints, quarts and gallons.Yeah, only weirdos call it soda.

[Samm]

We lose billions of dollars a year because we don't completely convert to the metric system.

How so? :eh:

Are you forgetting the enormous cost to convert?

[nortman]

I wonder... if you go on a diet and drop a stone... does it hurt? :think:I dropped a stone on Tuesday, and it really hurt.


That reminds me, I need to update my OO thread.

[King Cantona]

I wonder... if you go on a diet and drop a stone... does it hurt? :think:

I weigh 12 and a half stone, probably a bit more but a stone is 14 pounds.....

[Alan J]

As I said, Engineers got rid of the fractions decades ago; we use a metric system; 1/100 of a foot. 1/100; 1/10; and the foot are very appropriate units for the things that we do.

Well yeah, if you change the Imperial system to function exactly the same as the Metric system, it'd work beautifully. That's not really a good argument for the Imperial system, is it?

As far as a foot being appropriate for many of the things you do, is 3 decimeters really that much less convenient?


But not nearly as arbitrary as 3.6 meters.

In fact, 12 ft was not arbitrary... it developed empirically over the years as motor vehicles began to become common. It was developed both as a function of the size of vehicles (resulting in highway capacity), but also as a function of safety. A 3.6 meter wide lane is not as safe as a 12 foot lane. The difference may be imperceptible and 3.6 meters is likely the standard width that would have been adopted had we been metric at the time, but regardless that, the fact remains it is less safe and has lower capacity than a 12 ft width.

You're cherry picking. You have an example of a single instance where the measured quantity was close enough to 12 feet that they were able to round it of to a whole number of feet. (I doubt that the ideal road width was calculated at precisely 12.00000 feet.)
An equivalent example to yours would be a 2 litre bottle of coke. Obviously a nice round figure of 2 liters is a lot more pleasant than an unbecoming 0.5283441 gallons, isn't it? Just think, if we were to put that in Imperial units, we'd probably round down to 0.5 gallons, and that would be much less filling!

[Samm]

Well yeah, if you change the Imperial system to function exactly the same as the Metric system, it'd work beautifully. That's not really a good argument for the Imperial system, is it?
It is not a good argument to not adopt the metric system, but it is a good argument to keep the modified imperial system. Base ten is base ten regardless of what the fundamental unit is. The meter is arbitrary in length just as the foot is.

As far as a foot being appropriate for many of the things you do, is 3 decimeters really that much less convenient?
Yes it is... 3 is a very awkward number to use as an increment. Besides... decimeters are not an official metric unit of measurement; in the metric system that would be described as 300 mm or 0.3 meters. BTW... when we were designing and building "metric" roads in Alaska, 300 mm is what we used for things that we formerly built at 1 foot.

The appropriateness comes mostly in the smaller dimensions. 1/100 of a foot is the smallest increment that can be easily seen through a survey instrument when collecting data*; a mm can only be discerned at very close distances. It is also a very good increment for constructing precision features of large construction items such as drainage or structures or final pavement elevations; building to the nearest mm is unnecessary and would be damned near impossible to achieve using the materials that are used in heavy construction. 1/10 of a foot is a very appropriate increment for construction of less precise items like earthen embankments; 3 cm is just silly. (If you had ever slope staked an embankment, you would know what I am saying there.)

* see the comparison between an imperial survey rod and a metric rod here (http://www.mytoolstore.com/berger/06fbrods.jpg)

You're cherry picking. You have an example of a single instance where the measured quantity was close enough to 12 feet that they were able to round it of to a whole number of feet. (I doubt that the ideal road width was calculated at precisely 12.00000 feet.)
An equivalent example to yours would be a 2 litre bottle of coke. Obviously a nice round figure of 2 liters is a lot more pleasant than an unbecoming 0.5283441 gallons, isn't it? Just think, if we were to put that in Imperial units, we'd probably round down to 0.5 gallons, and that would be much less filling!

I am not cherry picking... the 12 foot lane width was developed empirically, just as I said. I also said that had we been on the metric system the standard width would most likely have been 3.6 meters... or a nice round 3.5. However, as far as beverage bottles, your argument is specious. There is zero comparison to my example. The volume contained therein is simple a convenience; it is not based on any empirical study. Coke bottles after-all started out at the odd volume of 7 ozs.

[Alan J]

It is not a good argument to not adopt the metric system, but it is a good argument to keep the modified imperial system. Base ten is base ten regardless of what the fundamental unit is. The meter is arbitrary in length just as the foot is.

Not really. There is no benefit to the Imperial system aside from your supposed convenience of unit lengths versus the Metric system. And many reasons why the Metric system is greatly superior in all other respects. (As a single example, try converting 7 gallons 2 ounces into cubic inches by hand. Now convert 3.8 liters into cubic centimeters.)

Yes it is... 3 is a very awkward number to use as an increment. Besides... decimeters are not an official metric unit of measurement; in the metric system that would be described as 300 mm or 0.3 meters. BTW... when we were designing and building "metric" roads in Alaska, 300 mm is what we used for things that we formerly built at 1 foot.

I really can't see how it is. Instead of measuring a single division, you measure three of them. For anyone who can count this shouldn't take more than an extra hundred-thousandth of a second or so.

Also, what do you make of the fact that everything you measure at 3 feet would be, by your reasoning, more convenient measured as 1 meter? 3 is such an awkward number, after all. Or, extending your line of thinking, what about all of the things that you measure as being 3280.8 feet? How much more convenient is it to measure all of those things as 1 kilometer? Why Samm, Metric increments are simply swimming in convenience!

In the Metric system, there is a single unit for each measurable physical quantity. You can then add prefixes such as centi, milli, or deci to make handling the numbers simpler. Deci is simply the prefix for 10^-1, it's no more or less "official" than any other prefix.

The appropriateness comes mostly in the smaller dimensions. 1/100 of a foot is the smallest increment that can be easily seen through a survey instrument when collecting data*; a mm can only be discerned at very close distances. It is also a very good increment for constructing precision features of large construction items such as drainage or structures or final pavement elevations; building to the nearest mm is unnecessary and would be damned near impossible to achieve using the materials that are used in heavy construction. 1/10 of a foot is a very appropriate increment for construction of less precise items like earthen embankments; 3 cm is just silly. (If you had ever slope staked an embankment, you would know what I am saying there.)

* see the comparison between an imperial survey rod and a metric rod here (http://www.mytoolstore.com/berger/06fbrods.jpg)

Well OK, that's just fine and dandy. In the situations where a millimeter is too precise, a 10th of a foot might do very nicely. What about all of the instances where a millimeter is just the right amount of precision, and a 10th of an foot is too large?

Tell me, how much are you paying an hour for your cheery picker? I think that with the amount of use you're getting out of it it's probably a bargain.

I am not cherry picking... the 12 foot lane width was developed empirically, just as I said. I also said that had we been on the metric system the standard width would most likely have been 3.6 meters... or a nice round 3.5. However, as far as beverage bottles, your argument is specious. There is zero comparison to my example. The volume contained therein is simple a convenience; it is not based on any empirical study. Coke bottles after-all started out at the odd volume of 7 ozs.

Yeah, you're cherry picking. You're looking at a single instance where something has been measured out to a round number of feet, and using it to argue that Imperial units are better because things naturally measure roundly to them.

As to 12 foot road lanes being an empirically determined width, and not just a decided upon standard, what is your source for that claim? Where is the research showing that a lane one or two inches wider or thinner would be dangerous?

[Cav Scout]

We need to go metric now and that is that.
I am tired of doing the damn conversions every single time I do a work up on something, I think in Metric anyway.

Anyone who builds anything will simply find it easier.

[jungulator]

I'd say teach them both. As a fabricator / welder I've worked with both standard and metric blue prints, and I must say that metric is MUCH easier to work with. It takes a little getting used to but once you get it down,it is easy. Plus it's nice not having to deal with fractions.

[Samm]

Not really. There is no benefit to the Imperial system aside from your supposed convenience of unit lengths versus the Metric system. And many reasons why the Metric system is greatly superior in all other respects. (As a single example, try converting 7 gallons 2 ounces into cubic inches by hand. Now convert 3.8 liters into cubic centimeters.)

I really can't see how it is. Instead of measuring a single division, you measure three of them. For anyone who can count this shouldn't take more than an extra hundred-thousandth of a second or so.

Also, what do you make of the fact that everything you measure at 3 feet would be, by your reasoning, more convenient measured as 1 meter? 3 is such an awkward number, after all. Or, extending your line of thinking, what about all of the things that you measure as being 3280.8 feet? How much more convenient is it to measure all of those things as 1 kilometer? Why Samm, Metric increments are simply swimming in convenience!

In the Metric system, there is a single unit for each measurable physical quantity. You can then add prefixes such as centi, milli, or deci to make handling the numbers simpler. Deci is simply the prefix for 10^-1, it's no more or less "official" than any other prefix.

Well OK, that's just fine and dandy. In the situations where a millimeter is too precise, a 10th of a foot might do very nicely. What about all of the instances where a millimeter is just the right amount of precision, and a 10th of an foot is too large?

Tell me, how much are you paying an hour for your cheery picker? I think that with the amount of use you're getting out of it it's probably a bargain.

Yeah, you're cherry picking. You're looking at a single instance where something has been measured out to a round number of feet, and using it to argue that Imperial units are better because things naturally measure roundly to them.

As to 12 foot road lanes being an empirically determined width, and not just a decided upon standard, what is your source for that claim? Where is the research showing that a lane one or two inches wider or thinner would be dangerous?

I'm tired of dickering with you over nothing, particularly at such a nit-picking level... I don't give a rats ass whether we keep Imperial units or go entirely metric. But this seems very important to you, so you are entirely welcome to your obstinate myopic opinion.

In short; take it up with someone who cares.

[DRS]

It would be so much simpler driving in the US if things were in metric :D

[merickson]

It has been observed that motorcycles that use metric parts need repair less often than motorcycles that use SAE parts.

On the other hand, SAE motorcycles sound cooler.