Canada's top Doc says system "imploding", "more precarious than Canadians realize"

[Iggy]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw

SASKATOON — The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.

Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."But thats only because Obama isn't running that one. If Obama was running it, it would create money out of thin air and people would be so healthy they'd all be pooping rainbows.

[ExDem]

Yes, I was debating the Canadian health-are system a week or so ago, elaborating on what a POS it was. Of course, I was wrong according to some in those threads. Well, well, well. Seems I was right. It is a POS.

[kat]

from your link:




His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that "a health-care revolution has passed us by," that it's possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and "that competition should be welcomed, not feared."

In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.


Ahem, isn't that what we have now?

[Canadian Jane]

I'm not sure that their "volume based funding" proposal is a good idea. It could encourage a meat market mentality of "get them in and out as quick as you can".

It also seems to me that urban centres would choke out any rural facilities in this kind of funding model - and we have some serious regional challenges (some areas that would mean drives of 5 hours or more to get to a facility).

As it is (in my province at least) the funding formulas for hospitals take into account bed numbers in any given facility - but to start funding based upon how many patients you can push through doesn't seem like a way to produce an outcome of quality health care.


From the article:

"He has also said the Canadian system could be restructured to focus on patients if hospitals and other health-care institutions received funding based on the patients they treat, instead of an annual, lump-sum budget. This "activity-based funding" would be an incentive to provide more efficient care, he has said."



"More efficient care" - equals less time per patient. What he is proposing does not improve the quality of health care for patients - it provides a higher profit margin for physicians.

[Darkscream]

Interestingly - From the same article...

"Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.
"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."


Guess everyone up there agrees on one point -
The Canadian system might be crappy - but the US System is no better.

[Canadian Jane]

Yes, I was debating the Canadian health-are system a week or so ago, elaborating on what a POS it was. Of course, I was wrong according to some in those threads. Well, well, well. Seems I was right. It is a POS.



Nice to know that you can form your conclusion based on one article and the unsubstantiated opinion of the president of the Canadian version of the AMA (which is supporting Obama's plan) - rather than look at the hard facts and real outcomes of the system.

[Iggy]

Interestingly - From the same article...

"Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.
"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."


Guess everyone up there agrees on one point -
The Canadian system might be crappy - but the US System is no better.
Feel free to move north at any time.

[KeithBlubberman]

Yes, I was debating the Canadian health-are system a week or so ago, elaborating on what a POS it was. Of course, I was wrong according to some in those threads. Well, well, well. Seems I was right. It is a POS.

I brought up, on this board, a U.K. friend's experience with the NHS there, and was quickly informed by the bleeding heart liberals that it is a good thing that 0bama's proposal isn't anything remotely similiar to the U.K.'s national health system. :think:

[Darkscream]

Feel free to move north at any time.


Why would I want to move ?
It's no better up there either.

I don't deal in generalisations.

[DRS]

Nice to know that you can form your conclusion based on one article and the unsubstantiated opinion of the president of the Canadian version of the AMA (which is supporting Obama's plan) - rather than look at the hard facts and real outcomes of the system.

What should be noted is the out going president runs 5 private clinics already and wants to expand so of course he would push for more privatization across Canada

[shrek]

Interestingly - From the same article...

"Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.
"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."


Guess everyone up there agrees on one point -
The Canadian system might be crappy - but the US System is no better.

No one is stating our system is better. It needs to be fixed. But the problem is Obama and many other liberals want to go to a Canadian style of healthcare.

Why?

Why do so if their system is broken?

[Iggy]

What should be noted is the out going president runs 5 private clinics already and wants to expand so of course he would push for more privatization across Canada

This story is about the incoming one.

[Darkscream]

No one is stating our system is better. It needs to be fixed. But the problem is Obama and many other liberals want to go to a Canadian style of healthcare.

Why?

Why do so if their system is broken?


Hey - I don't want to go to a Canadian system either.
I would much prefer a hybrid system - like some other countries do.

[Canadian Jane]

No one is stating our system is better. It needs to be fixed. But the problem is Obama and many other liberals want to go to a Canadian style of healthcare.

Why?

Why do so if their system is broken?


Here's a news flash for you: EVERYONE'S system is broken - if you simply read the sensational headlines.


The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

What you SHOULD be doing is looking at the problems and lessons learned in other countries - and then deciding if you can apply any of the solutions to your system - regardless of the funding model you choose.

Demonizing all of the systems (and this happens from all perspectives) does NOTHING to resolve the problems.

Canada's system isn't broken - it's being challenged, and that needs to be addressed.

It is being addressed - and not by throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


I believe that you need to do the same - but you need to do it with an open mind.

You have two public health care systems right now (Medicare and Medicaid) that could benefit from taking a fair look at Canada's system and how we are attempting to address similar issues.

And you need to take the TIME to really look at your private health care system - and how you can address problems within it - before you throw out the baby with the bathwater yourself.

Right now both sides are playing on people's fears - and in the end everyone will lose.

[shrek]

Hey - I don't want to go to a Canadian system either.
I would much prefer a hybrid system - like some other countries do.

and those countries are?

The reality is that SOcialized medicine or even partial socialization of a countries healthcare have never worked historically.

[DRS]

This story is about the incoming one.

And she is not talking about expanding the private care but rather fixing delivery of funding in the present system and cutting down some of the hours docs work. She is also big advocate of patients taking personal responsiblity for health and allowing for a balance between work/family life recreation.

[Darkscream]

and those countries are?

The reality is that SOcialized medicine or even partial socialization of a countries healthcare have never worked historically.


That is not true.

Australia and France for two.

[Iggy]

Here's a news flash for you: EVERYONE'S system is broken - if you simply read the sensational headlines.


The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

What you SHOULD be doing is looking at the problems and lessons learned in other countries - and then deciding if you can apply any of the solutions to your system - regardless of the funding model you choose.

Demonizing all of the systems (and this happens from all perspectives) does NOTHING to resolve the problems.

Canada's system isn't broken - it's being challenged, and that needs to be addressed.

It is being addressed - and not by throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


I believe that you need to do the same - but you need to do it with an open mind.

You have two public health care systems right now (Medicare and Medicaid) that could benefit from taking a fair look at Canada's system and how we are attempting to address similar issues.

And you need to take the TIME to really look at your private health care system - and how you can address problems within it - before you throw out the baby with the bathwater yourself.

Right now both sides are playing on people's fears - and in the end everyone will lose.+1

Jane, you've become my third reason for liking Canada, right behind beer and hockey. :hug:

[shrek]

Here's a news flash for you: EVERYONE'S system is broken - if you simply read the sensational headlines.


The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

What you SHOULD be doing is looking at the problems and lessons learned in other countries - and then deciding if you can apply any of the solutions to your system - regardless of the funding model you choose.

Demonizing all of the systems (and this happens from all perspectives) does NOTHING to resolve the problems.

Canada's system isn't broken - it's being challenged, and that needs to be addressed.

It is being addressed - and not by throwing out the baby with the bathwater.


I believe that you need to do the same - but you need to do it with an open mind.

You have two public health care systems right now (Medicare and Medicaid) that could benefit from taking a fair look at Canada's system and how we are attempting to address similar issues.

And you need to take the TIME to really look at your private health care system - and how you can address problems within it - before you throw out the baby with the bathwater yourself.

Right now both sides are playing on people's fears - and in the end everyone will lose.

In some ways you raise valid points. But the reality is the company i work for has a Toronto office. The people working in that office all are covered by our companies US Health insurance.

Several of the employees there have told me Canadians jump at the chance to work for US Companies to get US healthcare.

Our system is ailing yes. But it would seem its still far better than Canada's system or else you would not have Canadians eager to jump to our system.

Yes we need to fix the process, but pushing the Process in a socialist direction is not wise.

[johnrocks]

Nothing beats a true free market,something we don't have either,why ours is a POS also,imho.

[Canadian Jane]

In some ways you raise valid points. But the reality is the company i work for has a Toronto office. The people working in that office all are covered by our companies US Health insurance.

Several of the employees there have told me Canadians jump at the chance to work for US Companies to get US healthcare.

Our system is ailing yes. But it would seem its still far better than Canada's system or else you would not have Canadians eager to jump to our system.

Yes we need to fix the process, but pushing the Process in a socialist direction is not wise.



It's not about whether your system is better or not.

The reality is that your system may well be the best one for you. Fair enough.

In Canada - we think our system is the best for us.

The truth is we BOTH have a blended system of private and public - however, we tend to lean towards more public - and you lean towards more private.

The debate SHOULD BE about fixing the things that aren't working in both of them. And shared solutions could be applied to both. Then everyone would win.

[Canadian Jane]

+1

jane, you've become my third reason for liking canada, right behind beer and hockey. :hug:




:)

[penner01]

I'm not sure that their "volume based funding" proposal is a good idea. It could encourage a meat market mentality of "get them in and out as quick as you can".

"More efficient care" - equals less time per patient. What he is proposing does not improve the quality of health care for patients - it provides a higher profit margin for physicians. And I feel that is a risk of the not so transparent mindset that might really be behind the outcome based services being touted. Dictate steps and get them out. Get in, get cookie cutter treatment, get out........we need your bed.

[shrek]

It's not about whether your system is better or not.

The reality is that your system may well be the best one for you. Fair enough.

In Canada - we think our system is the best for us.

The truth is we BOTH have a blended system of private and public - however, we tend to lean towards more public - and you lean towards more private.

The debate SHOULD BE about fixing the things that aren't working in both of them. And shared solutions could be applied to both. Then everyone would win.

I bow to the master. :dance: I agree entirely. I was never trying to say our system is better.

We both have problems. Problems that should be fixed. The reality is that there is no one perfect soluiton for ALL Nations and societies.

[ExDem]

Nice to know that you can form your conclusion based on one article and the unsubstantiated opinion of the president of the Canadian version of the AMA (which is supporting Obama's plan) - rather than look at the hard facts and real outcomes of the system.

You know that it wasn't just this article. I have noted several articles in other threads as well. In addition I have doctor friends in Canada, that moved back to Canada after they were able to open private clinics. Now the rich can butt to the front of the lines. Canadian healthcare is a POS and we don't want it here. As we debated before, Canada sends their folks here for treatment when the lines are too long. Canadians come here for treatment even though they have to pay out of their own pockets. Pretty damning evidence. But then you knew that.

[Bluesgtr44]

Interestingly - From the same article...

"Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they've been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that's not the case.
"It's not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system," said Doig. "The whole thing is about looking at what other people do."


Guess everyone up there agrees on one point -
The Canadian system might be crappy - but the US System is no better.

We can't please all the people all the time.