Are people basically good? [Archive] - Sean Hannity Discussion

mysticbeauty_nbeast

August 13th, 2009, 2:25 pm

Human beings in general are out to service their needs and wants first and foremost. As Arch stated..selfishness seems to be the predominating trait within any group society anymore. As Gene pointed out, 'good' comes from example..ie, good parenting creates the standard by which the offspring then live and pass onto their children. There is a terrible crises of 'good' parenting anymore imo.

Even with that said...crises hits, like 9/11, and an amazing thing happens..we pool together, rise above and actually help one another. Sad statement to make when in crises the best of human beings is seen....said crises fades into memory..and they go right back into their small worlds and wants.

Do these understandings and statements about people denote them as good or bad? I think instead of judging it as good or bad, it's easier to simply say that it makes them human. :think:

~Mysty

Samm

August 13th, 2009, 5:14 pm

I do believe the majority of people are basically good.

As Vaard said, and as I have always contended the bad people get better press thus at times making it seem as though there is more bad.

We would have total chaos if it weren't for the fact that people are basically good.

Absolutely... Civilization would not exist if most people were not basically good, even if bad people are in charge. As it is, this "bad" minority causes enough problems in "good" societies. But hate, loathing, extreme selfishness, egomania... etc. (hmmm... who does that remind you of? :think: ) are all destructive forces that "good" people must vigilantly stand against to prevent it from prevailing over the majority, who for the most part, just want to live their lives. As history shows us, once established in a position of power, evil is very difficult to extricate.

Antrel

August 13th, 2009, 5:46 pm

Two very good points were brought up. First, that we would be chaotic if not generally "good." Human nature in many ways, but unfortunately not all ways, trumps law or government. Second, that we are inherently selfish. Selfishness absent of disposition unto others is not a negative thing, it's what strives us to live our lives personally as we do. However, given the tools to force ourselves onto others, we are easily corrupted. Politics is a clear example.

malnila

August 13th, 2009, 6:04 pm

I do believe the majority of people are basically good.

As Vaard said, and as I have always contended the bad people get better press thus at times making it seem as though there is more bad.

We would have total chaos if it weren't for the fact that people are basically good.

I agree here too. Basically people are good. It's just the choices they make sometimes that cause confusion. I don't totally agree that you can blame all the "bad" on bad parenting. I know a lot of good parents who's children chose to be otherwise and there's nothing they can do about it especially when those children are beyond the legal age. Also, there are certain prejudices around how people appear - how they dress, etc. - which cause others to believe that most people are "bad" when in actuality, they are basically good but never given that chance because of their appearance. All this is from my personal experience around a diverse group of people.

notluzn

August 13th, 2009, 6:44 pm

I believe everyone is bad. Easier to do bad things than good.

CHUG

August 13th, 2009, 9:40 pm

I believe most people are self centered, and do things for personal benefit. The only difference is how far ahead they look.

spinach

August 13th, 2009, 9:50 pm

Yes or No and why do you think so?

No.
man is a fallen being, a sinner.
the only standard for 'good' would be Jesus- God in the flesh, perfect, and with no sin.

man's condition cannot be changed by personal effort
but it can be changed by God, if a person accepts Jesus.

And since He has been offered freely-- all a person has to do is accept Him-
any person who would reject such an offer of love, demonstrates that they are evil.

there is no downside at all to accepting Jesus, yet people reject Him every day.

angelicmadrigal

August 13th, 2009, 9:52 pm

But hate, loathing, extreme selfishness, egomania... etc. (hmmm... who does that remind you of? :think: ) are all destructive forces that "good" people must vigilantly stand against to prevent it from prevailing over the majority, who for the most part, just want to live their lives. .

You know, if you want to take a dig at someone you ought to at least have the balls say who it is.

neoINDIE

August 13th, 2009, 10:06 pm

I think humans are products of their environment more than anything.

There ia a very small percentage that has some genetic issues and are just born nuts.

Other than that, we are molded as a child.

For example, if I was raised in a poor family and was brought up around gangs and violence, I would have probably ended up very different. As it was, I had a "Leave it to Beaver" upbringing with good parents and a good family life.

I see it time after time. Women brought up in a family where the man does not respect women often marry a man that does not respect them.

There are of course exceptions, so I guess my answer is we are born somewhat a blank slate and then become what we are.

What I don't believe is that "we are born sinners" crap, and that we are supposed to live live grovelling at the feet of God for forgiveness. Nuh-uh.

Drawz

August 13th, 2009, 11:05 pm

Absolutely... Civilization would not exist if most people were not basically good, even if bad people are in charge. As it is, this "bad" minority causes enough problems in "good" societies. But hate, loathing, extreme selfishness, egomania... etc. (hmmm... who does that remind you of? :think: ) are all destructive forces that "good" people must vigilantly stand against to prevent it from prevailing over the majority, who for the most part, just want to live their lives. As history shows us, once established in a position of power, evil is very difficult to extricate.

Hmm... Who does that remind you of? Don't be obtuse, I'm genuinely curious.

Drawz

August 13th, 2009, 11:11 pm

It depends on your definition of good.
Biologicaly speaking, humans are very good. What's good is procreation. There are so many of us that many are dying of starvation.

smyrna

August 13th, 2009, 11:40 pm

Are people basically good?

I believe we were all born good babies...

Drawz

August 14th, 2009, 12:22 am

No.
man is a fallen being, a sinner.
the only standard for 'good' would be Jesus- God in the flesh, perfect, and with no sin.
No, he isn't. No it wouldn't.

man's condition cannot be changed by personal effort
but it can be changed by God, if a person accepts Jesus.
Really? Accepting Jesus is not a personal effort?

And since He has been offered freely-- all a person has to do is accept Him-
any person who would reject such an offer of love, demonstrates that they are evil.

Calling me evil, eh? I call it rational. Sorry that I don't believe in your fairy tale but it doesn't make me "EVIL".

there is no downside at all to accepting Jesus, yet people reject Him every day.

Yah, there is. The downside is accepting a fable.

Wake-Up

August 14th, 2009, 12:38 am

No.
man is a fallen being, a sinner.
the only standard for 'good' would be Jesus- God in the flesh, perfect, and with no sin.

man's condition cannot be changed by personal effort
but it can be changed by God, if a person accepts Jesus.

And since He has been offered freely-- all a person has to do is accept Him-
any person who would reject such an offer of love, demonstrates that they are evil.

there is no downside at all to accepting Jesus, yet people reject Him every day.

So anyone not a Christian or to your level of faith is inherently evil?

Jews? Muslims? Buddhists?

People are raised in an orderly society and following the rules established but that society for right and wrong influence those choices a person makes to be good or evil. Yes, religious beliefs can become a part of that but its not the only reason.

To cast off things Christians do against societies rules as sins or them not truly having accepted Christ is myopic.

There are people living in remote areas of South America, Africa and Asia that have not accepted your religious beliefs or Christ, yet live in orderly productive societies that recognize theft and murder are wrong/evil. By your comments they are evil as well or is there an excuse for people not exposed to Christ and your belief system?

Samm

August 14th, 2009, 3:56 am

You know, if you want to take a dig at someone you ought to at least have the balls say who it is.

Ok... it's Obama.

Who else? :eh:

Samm

August 14th, 2009, 3:58 am

I believe everyone is bad. Easier to do bad things than good.

Yes... it is easier... but the fact that most people do not do those bad things proves they are good. Q.E.D.

Wookinstien

August 14th, 2009, 4:16 am

Yes we are all born good, but sadly some become democrats....

:)

sgdp

August 14th, 2009, 6:28 am

Yes, people are basically good. I've a health problem that sometimes leaves me collapsing in public or just sliding down a wall to sit with my head in my hands.

Always pleasantly surprised to have complete strangers show some concern. That is when I have faith in humanity restored.

However...

There is a saying that evil is necessary so that good may rise above it.

BrittleBullet

August 14th, 2009, 8:07 am

People are neutral. There's some good things you can say about most people along with bad.

USAF Medic

August 14th, 2009, 8:17 am

Well lots of interesting well thought out answers.

gdoane

August 14th, 2009, 9:38 am

Yes... it is easier... but the fact that most people do not do those bad things proves they are good. Q.E.D.

I think it proves more that they fear being caught than that they are good.

We are totally surrounded with evil prevention. The keys in your pockets go to locks. Why? To prevent people from taking things, trespassing and doing evil. Banks have cameras and safes because banks assume people are going to do evil. Filling stations require payment before pumping. Why? Because of the evil which will surely happen if they do not.

You can't even buy a $4.99 DVD at Wal-Mart that doesn't have one of those anti-shoplifting sticker devices in it because people are evil.

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution wisely makes the assumption that we need to keep the ability to defend ourselves from evil in the hands of the people.

Courthouses, police, jails and prisons all exist because people are evil. If people were inherently good none of these things would be necessary.

You can't get much of anywhere on the Internet without passwords and you can't get on an airplane without a photo ID because people are evil.

Every single day we're confronted with at least a dozen admissions that people are evil, and yet we have people sitting behind locked doors, with the keys to their locked and alarmed vehicle in their pockets, proclaiming their belief that people are good?

I believe in the good of mankind not at all, I'm surrounded by proof to the contrary and with all of the billions of dollars spent on security, I find it hard to believe many Pollyanna types actually do buy into the idea of inherent good.

StoneScratcher

August 14th, 2009, 10:27 am

I think people need training (aka parenting) to be good. The lack of adequate training gives rise to the term "bastard" which basically means an evil sort.

Our jails are filled with people who have been mostly raised (trained, parented) badly which means to me that lacking such training, the human state will gravitate more towards evil than towards good.

There is something called "Civility Training" and it seems that ":rolleyes:prah" was pushing for it last year. They've been doing alot of research in this, from John Hopkins. The guy there (decades into this "civility"), is into tweeking people's neurotransmitters via assorted means.

Once everyone is "civil" there's that bee-hive colony "community" that is EASY to manage and rule.

Now, I can't find any mention of who's doing the managing and ruling of this "community"...

But, some think (errr...parrot) what ":rolleyes:prah" does.

So, I suppose those who support Civility Training, do not believe any person is good enough to be good on their own or that what one thinks is good, the other thinks is bad, so it's better to get everyone being good on the same page (as defined by the rulers and managers).

Edited to include a link:

http://krieger.jhu.edu/civility

Oprah and Forni:

http://www.oprah.com/slideshow/oprahshow/20080909_tows_rude/5

Oprah Book List, by Forni:

http://www.oprah.com/article/oprahshow/20080909_tows_civilityexcerpt

neoINDIE

August 14th, 2009, 1:22 pm

Samm

August 14th, 2009, 4:40 pm

I think it proves more that they fear being caught than that they are good.

Nonsense. Time and time again... I contend the majority of the time... people who find a wallet with money in it lying on the ground will return that wallet money intact. There is zero chance they will be "caught" yet they do the right thing. Heck, there are many cases where people find a large amount of cash and have no way to identify the person who lost it and yet they turn the money in.

We are totally surrounded with evil prevention. The keys in your pockets go to locks. Why? To prevent people from taking things, trespassing and doing evil. Banks have cameras and safes because banks assume people are going to do evil. Filling stations require payment before pumping. Why? Because of the evil which will surely happen if they do not.

You can't even buy a $4.99 DVD at Wal-Mart that doesn't have one of those anti-shoplifting sticker devices in it because people are evil.

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution wisely makes the assumption that we need to keep the ability to defend ourselves from evil in the hands of the people.

Courthouses, police, jails and prisons all exist because people are evil. If people were inherently good none of these things would be necessary.

You can't get much of anywhere on the Internet without passwords and you can't get on an airplane without a photo ID because people are evil.

Every single day we're confronted with at least a dozen admissions that people are evil, and yet we have people sitting behind locked doors, with the keys to their locked and alarmed vehicle in their pockets, proclaiming their belief that people are good?

I believe in the good of mankind not at all, I'm surrounded by proof to the contrary and with all of the billions of dollars spent on security, I find it hard to believe many Pollyanna types actually do buy into the idea of inherent good.

All of that is true, but all it proves is that there are enough "bad" people that protecting what is yours is necessary. Of course locks and security systems are required. No business could tolerate theft by even 5% of the people who come through their doors nor could you tolerate theft of your property by even 0.5% of the population. But I grew up in a community where nobody locked their doors and I do not recall anybody being burgled.

King Cantona

August 14th, 2009, 5:18 pm

Ok... it's Obama.

Who else? :eh:

Well it was always going to be hard for him, succeeding a really GREAT President who was extremely clever and a paragon of virtue and who never put a foot wrong...:))...

The Bushes, a truly great Presidential family......

Apatriot

August 14th, 2009, 5:24 pm

Yes or No and why do you think so?

Basically, we are good, however, we all have the propensity to do evil at times.

Samm

August 14th, 2009, 5:47 pm

Well it was always going to be hard for him, succeeding a really GREAT President who was extremely clever and a paragon of virtue and who never put a foot wrong...:))...

The Bushes, a truly great Presidential family......

This isn't about Bush. Get over Bush. The successes and failings of Bush are no longer pertinent. Obama owns the situation; it is his responsibility and his liability. Deal with it.

Not that a Brit should have anything to say about it anyway... :neutral:

Are there not any problems in Britain that you are concerned about? Or is there no public forum for you to express them? Damn sure must be frustrating to live there if that is the case. :think:

But again... you have taken us off track.

gdoane

August 14th, 2009, 7:01 pm

Nonsense. Time and time again... I contend the majority of the time... people who find a wallet with money in it lying on the ground will return that wallet money intact. There is zero chance they will be "caught" yet they do the right thing. Heck, there are many cases where people find a large amount of cash and have no way to identify the person who lost it and yet they turn the money in.

I, too, see such stories of honesty in the news and it is my belief that it's news because it's unusual. Like Diogenes disovered in his fruitless quest to find an honest man, a truly good person is not common at all.

All of that is true, but all it proves is that there are enough "bad" people that protecting what is yours is necessary. Of course locks and security systems are required. No business could tolerate theft by even 5% of the people who come through their doors nor could you tolerate theft of your property by even 0.5% of the population. But I grew up in a community where nobody locked their doors and I do not recall anybody being burgled.

A small community has a security of a different sort in that it lacks the anonymity of a big city. I went to school in a small rural Kansas town named Wellington where everybody knew everybody else, who they were, where they lived, what they did for a living, absolute accountability. There was no way to get away with any crime because police didn't get descriptions, they got names and addresses of the perps stupid enough to try and commit a crime in that town.

sgtmac_46

August 15th, 2009, 10:03 am

Yes or No and why do you think so?

I believe most folks are good decent people.

sgtmac_46

August 15th, 2009, 10:04 am

This isn't about Bush. Get over Bush. The successes and failings of Bush are no longer pertinent. Obama owns the situation; it is his responsibility and his liability. Deal with it.

Not that a Brit should have anything to say about it anyway... :neutral:

Are there not any problems in Britain that you are concerned about? Or is there no public forum for you to express them? Damn sure must be frustrating to live there if that is the case. :think:

But again... you have taken us off track. King Cantona wants to be an American.......that's why he spends all his time talking about us. Can you blame him? My ancestors escaped the European ****hole, so I feel for him.

gdoane

August 15th, 2009, 11:31 am

I believe most folks are good decent people.

How do you square that belief with being a self-described "classical liberal"?

Liberals believe that people are so evil that they will not give to charity, so the poor can only be helped by FORCING people to give money towards their good causes under the color of law.

To be a liberal requires a belief that government is capable of more good than the people being governed. Conservatism is the opposite, as conservatives believe that government is but a necessary evil. Liberalism actually holds that government is a good.

Government is evil. The worst a civilian has ever done was kill a few thousand. Government kills by the millions. Nazi Germany killed 6 Million. Stalin's USSR killed 8 Million. The Empire of Japan killed 12 Million. Yet liberalism, in denial of the historical evil of government, looks to government to do more good than the people can be trusted to do.

Liberalism, as a philosophy, assumes that people are evil.

johnrocks

August 15th, 2009, 11:41 am

A liberal and a classical liberal are like night and day,they are so far apart Gene.

gdoane

August 15th, 2009, 12:25 pm

A liberal and a classical liberal are like night and day,they are so far apart Gene.

I don't think they are philosophically.

For a classical liberal, I think FDR and JFK. Frankie Roosevelt and John Fitz Kennedy both believed in huge government programs (New Deal, Space Program, Social Security) which they believed (incorrectly) would do a great deal of good instead of the despicable evils which government programs are forever doomed to become.

For a modern liberal, I think of Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and big government programs designed to help individual citizens at the cost of harming other citizens "who can afford the burden" in their estimation.

The philosophies are the same, only the targets differ. Classical liberals want to help large groups of people and modern liberals want to handle each and every individual person to either help them or fleece them in the pursuit of equality of outcome.

Both are pretty screwed up in a nation which values freedoms because it takes the fundamental freedom of choice and places it in the hands of an overreaching government.

sgtmac_46

August 15th, 2009, 1:19 pm

How do you square that belief with being a self-described "classical liberal"?

Liberals believe that people are so evil that they will not give to charity, so the poor can only be helped by FORCING people to give money towards their good causes under the color of law.

To be a liberal requires a belief that government is capable of more good than the people being governed. Conservatism is the opposite, as conservatives believe that government is but a necessary evil. Liberalism actually holds that government is a good.

Government is evil. The worst a civilian has ever done was kill a few thousand. Government kills by the millions. Nazi Germany killed 6 Million. Stalin's USSR killed 8 Million. The Empire of Japan killed 12 Million. Yet liberalism, in denial of the historical evil of government, looks to government to do more good than the people can be trusted to do.

Liberalism, as a philosophy, assumes that people are evil.
Might want to look up the term 'Classical Liberal'.........you've confused it with the hi-jacked term 'Social Liberal'. ;)

sgtmac_46

August 15th, 2009, 1:23 pm

I don't think they are philosophically.

For a classical liberal, I think FDR and JFK. Frankie Roosevelt and John Fitz Kennedy both believed in huge government programs (New Deal, Space Program, Social Security) which they believed (incorrectly) would do a great deal of good instead of the despicable evils which government programs are forever doomed to become.

For a modern liberal, I think of Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and big government programs designed to help individual citizens at the cost of harming other citizens "who can afford the burden" in their estimation.

The philosophies are the same, only the targets differ. Classical liberals want to help large groups of people and modern liberals want to handle each and every individual person to either help them or fleece them in the pursuit of equality of outcome.

Both are pretty screwed up in a nation which values freedoms because it takes the fundamental freedom of choice and places it in the hands of an overreaching government.
FDR and JFK were Social Liberals.......at it's core Social Liberalism exists as an aberration and a misuse of the word 'Liberalism'.......Social Liberalism is at it's root Socialism.........it's influence in America began with the immigrant communists and so-called 'anarchists' of the early 1900's and it evolved from that point on to become what we have today.

Classical Liberalism is the Liberalism of the enlightenment.........the liberalism of free markets, individual liberty, private property rights.......the liberalism of this nations founding!

Classical Liberalism is made up of the likes of John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith.....Ronald Reagan.... Many tenants of Classical Liberalism have come to be known as 'Libertarianism' and 'Conservatism'....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

Of course that's not to be confused with 'Neo-Conservativism' which itself evolved from Social Liberalism. ;)

snagswolf

August 15th, 2009, 1:39 pm

I think it comes down to moral justification. Even the most 'evil' among us feels morally justified in what they do. (This tends to cause people to lump those who have the same moral justifications as they do on the 'good' side, and those who don't on the 'evil' side.)

It's a sliding scale, and one person may be on different ends of it, depending on the situation. For example, one guy may feel it's morally wrong to steal from a store, but feel morally justified in having an affair, because his wife no longer desires him. Another man may find it morally reprehensible to cheat on his wife, while feeling morally justified in stealling food to feed him family. Each would probably consider the other one 'evil'.

I'd be willing to bet that even the monster who kills an old lady for the change in her purse, feels morally justified in doing it.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people around the world who consider us Americans to be 'evil', because of the lifestyles we lead. But we find it morally justifiable to buy widescreen TVs and own three cars and spend thousands on cosmetic surgery, while there are people starving in the world.

I know that 'moral relativism' is sometimes used to justify people doing bad things, but it's certainly something that has to be taken into account when judging the 'evilness' of people.

Samm

August 15th, 2009, 3:34 pm

King Cantona wants to be an American.......that's why he spends all his time talking about us. Can you blame him? My ancestors escaped the European ****hole, so I feel for him.

If he wants to be an American, why does he keep crapping on us? Who does he think he is? Obama?

King Cantona

August 15th, 2009, 3:46 pm

King Cantona wants to be an American.......that's why he spends all his time talking about us. Can you blame him? My ancestors escaped the European ****hole, so I feel for him.

:)):))

I used to live in the US but I am so happy to be back in Britain.....

You escaped the European ****hole?.....

Interesting opinion of other countries you have there, I wonder if it's just hearsay evidence?.....

I'm glad to be back in the country of the NHS, the infinitely superior health system that all the right wing wankers over there are lying about to further their own pathetic agenda.....

Samm

August 15th, 2009, 4:06 pm

I'm glad to be back in the country of the NHS, the infinitely superior health system that all the right wing wankers over there are lying about to further their own pathetic agenda.....

:)) :)) :))

Whew! :)

sgtmac_46

August 15th, 2009, 4:41 pm

:)):))

I used to live in the US but I am so happy to be back in Britain.....

You escaped the European ****hole?.....

Interesting opinion of other countries you have there, I wonder if it's just hearsay evidence?.....

I'm glad to be back in the country of the NHS, the infinitely superior health system that all the right wing wankers over there are lying about to further their own pathetic agenda.....

What's the matter, you get deported? Would explain the bitterness! :))

And it's you Brits who are lying to yourselves.......through you bad teeth. ;)

Oh, and remind me again why a Brit who hates the US spends all his time on an American website discussing American news and politics if he wasn't really just obsessed with America and deep down inside just wants to be an American? It's quite obvious!

Because when it's all said and done, there are two kinds of people in the world........those who ARE Americans........and those who want to be, and are angry because they're NOT! :))

You can prove me wrong simply by signing off and never coming back, of course. Spare me the claim you aren't going to 'let me off that easily'.......because i'm really just amused by the whole thing, and know that every post you make on the subject merely PROVES MY POINT! ;)

sgtmac_46

August 15th, 2009, 4:48 pm

If he wants to be an American, why does he keep crapping on us? Who does he think he is? Obama?

He probably got deported.........and now he's bitter.

Kegler300

August 15th, 2009, 5:01 pm

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d96/h0stile17/STATION.jpg

King Cantona

August 15th, 2009, 5:11 pm

What's the matter, you get deported? Would explain the bitterness! :))

And it's you Brits who are lying to yourselves.......through you bad teeth. ;)

Another American who thinks Austin Powers is a documentary? I thought you were brighter than that...

Oh, and remind me again why a Brit who hates the US spends all his time on an American website discussing American news and politics if he wasn't really just obsessed with America and deep down inside just wants to be an American? It's quite obvious!

Would that you had the intelligence to see that I am proud to be British though I accept that havjng pride for achievements is much more sensible than pride for a pure accident of birth. Although if you have any sense you would realise that I certainly don't hate America, I have many American friends that funnily enough agree with me and not you.

Because when it's all said and done, there are two kinds of people in the world........those who ARE Americans........and those who want to be, and are angry because they're NOT! :))

Well good luck in that delusion.......:rolleyes:.......

You can prove me wrong simply by signing off and never coming back, of course. Spare me the claim you aren't going to 'let me off that easily'.......because i'm really just amused by the whole thing, and know that every post you make on the subject merely PROVES MY POINT! ;)

Why should I go? If I am banned then fair enough, by the way, did you actually notice that my 'bitterness' was ENTIRELY in the sentence about the liars that maybe you (being apparently not very clever) listen to on the right wing (which I find to be a no truth zone) in America....

PS If you want me to leave that badly I must be needling you which from my point of view is a good thing.......:cool:........

King Cantona

August 15th, 2009, 5:18 pm

He probably got deported.........and now he's bitter.

Yes sgtmac I got deported, now run along........

King Cantona

August 15th, 2009, 5:21 pm

If he wants to be an American, why does he keep crapping on us? Who does he think he is? Obama?

I don't crap on America, you're just too thin skinned, I am WAY to the left of you, that's all......

Samm

August 15th, 2009, 8:57 pm

I don't crap on America, you're just too thin skinned, I am WAY to the left of you, that's all......

My skin has nothing to do with it... you crap on America... along with the rest of the Far Left. Except you have no right to do so; they do... they are Americans. Americans have a Constitutional Right to say whatever they want about America; you Brits don't even have a Constitution, let alone the right of free speech.

Samm

August 15th, 2009, 9:07 pm

What's the matter, you get deported? Would explain the bitterness! :))

And it's you Brits who are lying to yourselves.......through you bad teeth. :D

Another American who thinks Austin Powers is a documentary? I thought you were brighter than that...

"According to the results of a study for National Smile Month, it seems that one in four Brits are too embarrassed to smile in photos due to bad teeth. The British Dental Association is trying to promote better oral hygiene amongst individuals as many people admit to suffering gum problems and not bothering to clean their teeth every day.

"It’s not surprising many Brits have bad teeth as trying to find an NHS dentist in most areas of the country is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You hear so many horror stories nowadays about many people using “DIY dentistry”, as they are unable to find an NHS dentist to treat them and unable to pay the very high fees charged by private dentists. I couldn’t believe it when I heard that one man had actually used superglue to fix a damaged crown on his front tooth. Unbelievable! We can only hope the situation improves in the future for the sake of everyone living in this country and their teeth! "

http://diaryfromengland.blogspot.com/2008/05/bad-teeth-brits-embarrassed-to-smile.html

gdoane

August 15th, 2009, 9:34 pm

"According to the results of a study for National Smile Month, it seems that one in four Brits are too embarrassed to smile in photos due to bad teeth. The British Dental Association is trying to promote better oral hygiene amongst individuals as many people admit to suffering gum problems and not bothering to clean their teeth every day.

"It’s not surprising many Brits have bad teeth as trying to find an NHS dentist in most areas of the country is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You hear so many horror stories nowadays about many people using “DIY dentistry”, as they are unable to find an NHS dentist to treat them and unable to pay the very high fees charged by private dentists. I couldn’t believe it when I heard that one man had actually used superglue to fix a damaged crown on his front tooth. Unbelievable! We can only hope the situation improves in the future for the sake of everyone living in this country and their teeth! "

http://diaryfromengland.blogspot.com/2008/05/bad-teeth-brits-embarrassed-to-smile.html

NATIONAL SMILE MONTH?

What in the Sam Hill? Let me look this up to see if it's real!

http://www.nationalsmileweek.org/

Oh. My. God. It's actually real! And it's not even a month, it was from 17 May 2009 to 16 June 2009. They don't even know what a MONTH is!

Apparently in England the calendars are nearly as crooked as the teeth are.

captusa

August 15th, 2009, 10:30 pm

i think the majority of people are basically good.......

but the bad ones get more attention......

i think this by my everyday experiences with people......

Agreed.
If the majority of people were not basically good the race (human) would not have progressed very much.

captusa

August 15th, 2009, 10:35 pm

I.....

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution wisely makes the assumption that we need to keep the ability to defend ourselves from evil in the hands of the people.

.....

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution wisely makes assumption that we the people need to keep the ability to defend ourselves from evil in the hands of THE Government.

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 5:21 am

My skin has nothing to do with it... you crap on America... along with the rest of the Far Left. Except you have no right to do so; they do... they are Americans. Americans have a Constitutional Right to say whatever they want about America; you Brits don't even have a Constitution, let alone the right of free speech.

??????????

You are correct that we don't have a written constitution but you're an idiot if you think I don't have the right to free speech...

I must admit that I DO crap on right wing America, I crap on the lies that your right wing commercials tell about the NHS, I only crap on them because they feel no shame that they're liars....

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 5:25 am

"According to the results of a study for National Smile Month, it seems that one in four Brits are too embarrassed to smile in photos due to bad teeth. The British Dental Association is trying to promote better oral hygiene amongst individuals as many people admit to suffering gum problems and not bothering to clean their teeth every day.

"It’s not surprising many Brits have bad teeth as trying to find an NHS dentist in most areas of the country is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You hear so many horror stories nowadays about many people using “DIY dentistry”, as they are unable to find an NHS dentist to treat them and unable to pay the very high fees charged by private dentists. I couldn’t believe it when I heard that one man had actually used superglue to fix a damaged crown on his front tooth. Unbelievable! We can only hope the situation improves in the future for the sake of everyone living in this country and their teeth! "

http://diaryfromengland.blogspot.com/2008/05/bad-teeth-brits-embarrassed-to-smile.html

And I saw on TV how when a dentist gives up his time free in the US and has a free workshop thousands of people without dental care turn up....

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 10:03 am

Yes sgtmac I got deported, now run along........

So now you have to enter the country vicariously by spending your free time on this forum........interesting.........but it's us that are screwed up! :)) :)) :))

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 10:04 am

My skin has nothing to do with it... you crap on America... along with the rest of the Far Left. Except you have no right to do so; they do... they are Americans. Americans have a Constitutional Right to say whatever they want about America; you Brits don't even have a Constitution, let alone the right of free speech.

Touche! We eliminated the Brits authority to dictate terms to us a couple hundred years ago.......WITH BULLETS!

They can keep their bad teeth and socialized medicine on their side of the pond if they don't like the way we run out country......and if our leftists want socialized medicine so much they should MOVE TO EUROPE!

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 10:11 am

And I saw on TV how when a dentist gives up his time free in the US and has a free workshop thousands of people without dental care turn up....

Seen it on tv did you? :))

If the British NHS dental care is so great, why do many Brits who can afford it still PAY far more to see a good dentist, genius? :))

gdoane

August 16th, 2009, 10:28 am

??????????

You are correct that we don't have a written constitution but you're an idiot if you think I don't have the right to free speech...

I don't think you do. I suppose you know about the "Telly Tax", the outrageous tax on owning a television in the U.K. which would absolutely FROST Americans by the very idea of it.

Freedom of speech means little to nothing when you have to buy a government issued license to even watch a TV program.

I know, cue how great the BBC is... I have the BBC. It's channel 137 here in Phoenix. It's not even a top 100 channel in American Cable TV lineups. Art paid for by taxation sucks rocks. Here we have PBS and C-Span as government run TV channels, and if given the option to pay for it, very few Americans would.

I don't regard a nation with a Telly Tax as being a model for freedom of speech. When either your mouth or ears need a license from your government, free speech is compromised.

I must admit that I DO crap on right wing America, I crap on the lies that your right wing commercials tell about the NHS, I only crap on them because they feel no shame that they're liars....[/quote]

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 10:35 am

I don't think you do. I suppose you know about the "Telly Tax", the outrageous tax on owning a television in the U.K. which would absolutely FROST Americans by the very idea of it.

Freedom of speech means little to nothing when you have to buy a government issued license to even watch a TV program.

I know, cue how great the BBC is... I have the BBC. It's channel 137 here in Phoenix. It's not even a top 100 channel in American Cable TV lineups. Art paid for by taxation sucks rocks. Here we have PBS and C-Span as government run TV channels, and if given the option to pay for it, very few Americans would.

I don't regard a nation with a Telly Tax as being a model for freedom of speech. When either your mouth or ears need a license from your government, free speech is compromised.

I must admit that I DO crap on right wing America, I crap on the lies that your right wing commercials tell about the NHS, I only crap on them because they feel no shame that they're liars.... He only believes what the British government tells him to believe.......power of GOVERNMENT RUN MEDIA! ;)

Wait for it......'You only believe what Fox News tells you, WAAAAAHHHHH'........it's the typical retort. ;)

meggers49

August 16th, 2009, 10:37 am

Yes or No and why do you think so?

no.

the majority of people are too wrapped up in themselves and their wants and needs. Goodness is a morals thing and an ethics thing. Any more, the thought for most is, "as long as I don't get caught".

no, most people are not good.

meggers49

August 16th, 2009, 10:41 am

I, too, see such stories of honesty in the news and it is my belief that it's news because it's unusual. Like Diogenes disovered in his fruitless quest to find an honest man, a truly good person is not common at all.

A small community has a security of a different sort in that it lacks the anonymity of a big city. I went to school in a small rural Kansas town named Wellington where everybody knew everybody else, who they were, where they lived, what they did for a living, absolute accountability. There was no way to get away with any crime because police didn't get descriptions, they got names and addresses of the perps stupid enough to try and commit a crime in that town.

nodding in complete agreement.

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 11:44 am

So now you have to enter the country vicariously by spending your free time on this forum........interesting.........but it's us that are screwed up! :)) :)) :))

Do you know what is really funny? The fact that you seem to perhaps believe that I have been deported, now if so that REALLY does deserve to illicit a few of these :)):)):)).....

I will now tell you why I returned to the UK, on 4th July 1993 I was hit by a hit and run driver and spent a month in a coma. My parents were urged to turn off life support (probably wouldn't happen in the UK) as I had apparently been declared clinically dead...

My parents are good Catholics and did not give such consent...

After three months in hospital I wanted to go home, in fact even though I couldn't talk at the time I made my DESIRE to leave pretty clear...

I don't crap on America but I do have opinions, if you don't like them, tough.....

I could care less........

meggers49

August 16th, 2009, 11:51 am

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 11:52 am

He only believes what the British government tells him to believe.......power of GOVERNMENT RUN MEDIA! ;)

Wait for it......'You only believe what Fox News tells you, WAAAAAHHHHH'........it's the typical retort. ;)

Very witty comeback there sgtmac, preempting what I was going to say even though I wasn't going to say it....

Kudos to you.......:rolleyes:........

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 11:55 am

how old are you?

I am 50, why do you want to know?.....

meggers49

August 16th, 2009, 11:56 am

"According to the results of a study for National Smile Month, it seems that one in four Brits are too embarrassed to smile in photos due to bad teeth. The British Dental Association is trying to promote better oral hygiene amongst individuals as many people admit to suffering gum problems and not bothering to clean their teeth every day.

"It’s not surprising many Brits have bad teeth as trying to find an NHS dentist in most areas of the country is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You hear so many horror stories nowadays about many people using “DIY dentistry”, as they are unable to find an NHS dentist to treat them and unable to pay the very high fees charged by private dentists. I couldn’t believe it when I heard that one man had actually used superglue to fix a damaged crown on his front tooth. Unbelievable! We can only hope the situation improves in the future for the sake of everyone living in this country and their teeth! "

http://diaryfromengland.blogspot.com/2008/05/bad-teeth-brits-embarrassed-to-smile.html

maybe they should put the evil flouride in their water so they don't have so many cavities.

gdoane

August 16th, 2009, 12:01 pm

I am 50, why do you want to know?.....

Well, if only the good die young then there's a conclusion which may be reached here.

meggers49

August 16th, 2009, 12:03 pm

there are so many things that i could comment on in this one post, it's ridiculous, so i'll just say, it's good you're back in Britain. I hope you're doing well.

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 12:08 pm

there are so many things that i could comment on in this one post, it's ridiculous, so i'll just say, it's good you're back in Britain. I hope you're doing well.

Yes but I often visit the US, I resent the fact that people have said I crap on the US, rather I have an opinion on certain things...

Unfortunately these seem to be things that a certain sector of society seem to hold dear, well I have an opinion and like it or not I am entitled to my opinion....

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 12:09 pm

Well, if only the good die young then there's a conclusion which may be reached here.

I'm pretty sure that some evil bastards have died young....

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Do you know what is really funny? The fact that you seem to perhaps believe that I have been deported, now if so that REALLY does deserve to illicit a few of these :)):)):)).....

I will now tell you why I returned to the UK, on 4th July 1993 I was hit by a hit and run driver and spent a month in a coma. My parents were urged to turn off life support (probably wouldn't happen in the UK) as I had apparently been declared clinically dead...

My parents are good Catholics and did not give such consent...

After three months in hospital I wanted to go home, in fact even though I couldn't talk at the time I made my DESIRE to leave pretty clear...

I don't crap on America but I do have opinions, if you don't like them, tough.....

I could care less........ Now if we had end of life counseling that never would have.....wait......never mind. :wall: :doh:

What I love about you is the clueless nature in which you attempt to make a point......in the US it's the LEFT who has championed shutting off the machines........you know, the SUPPORTERS of Socialized medicine. If they'd had their way, you'd have been Terri Schiavoed. ;)

As for your opinions.......who cares? It's obvious their quality (or lack thereof).

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 12:32 pm

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 12:33 pm

I am 50, why do you want to know?.....

Because you sound about 17.....FYI

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 12:44 pm

And it's my right to ridicule stupid opinions wherever they may be found. ;)

Likewise............;).............

One man's stupid opinion is another man's good idea.........

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 12:46 pm

Likewise............;).............

One man's stupid opinion is another man's good idea.........

In this case it's just one man's stupid opinion.....no good idea involved.

I don't blame you, though......socialism is a heady drug that lowers the IQ's of it's adherents until they don't even realize what a bad idea it is. ;)

<insert unwitty retort about greedy capitalists here>

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 12:56 pm

What I love about you is the clueless nature in which you attempt to make a point......in the US it's the LEFT who has championed shutting off the machines........you know, the SUPPORTERS of Socialized medicine. If they'd had their way, you'd have been Terri Schiavoed. ;)

As for your opinions.......who cares? It's obvious their quality (or lack thereof).

Again with the stupid right wing opinions.......:rolleyes:.......

You love that about me? Aw shucks, I'm embarrassed now......

It's the right who want insurance companies involved in medicine, don't forget I've spent a while in American hospitals, insurance companies will ALWAYS try to get out of paying...

Terri Sciavo will be thanking the people who turned her machine off, that's my opinion, I know you have a different one but could I care? Take a guess...

Incidentally I believe your right wing liars have been trying to recruit Stephen Hawking to them. Unfortunately he says that he wouldn't be here today but for the NHS, I'm sure that sticks in the craw of those liars...

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 12:58 pm

Because you sound about 17.....FYI

And I'm sure you're looking forward to when you can ditch your fake ID and buy alcohol legally......

angelicmadrigal

August 16th, 2009, 1:03 pm

It's the right who want insurance companies involved in medicine, don't forget I've spent a while in American hospitals, insurance companies will ALWAYS try to get out of paying...
.

Well there are actually issues on both sides of the fence. Yes, there are times when if an insurance company can get away with not paying something they won't, but there's also issues with doctors and hospitals cheating the insurance companies by double billing or in some cases filing faulty claims. Some consumers are even at fault as they allow other family members to use their insurance cards. So it really is a multi-tiered problem, where you can't lay the blame solely on the insurance company.

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 1:07 pm

In this case it's just one man's stupid opinion.....no good idea involved.

I don't blame you, though......socialism is a heady drug that lowers the IQ's of it's adherents until they don't even realize what a bad idea it is.

And how low must your IQ be to sit there conversing with an obvious idiot?....

You know, on my frequent trips to the US (before I'm deported again;)) whenever I meet right wing people they're usually REALLY stupid, yeah I know, they're even stupider than me, I'm serious...

To give you an idea how stupid, think Cletus in The Simpsons, you're not stupid, I'm not saying that. You've just missed your way...;)...

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 1:15 pm

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 1:17 pm

And I'm sure you're looking forward to when you can ditch your fake ID and buy alcohol legally......

Wow.......witty retort......basically a variation on 'I know you are, but what am I?'....:))

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 1:19 pm

And how low must your IQ be to sit there conversing with an obvious idiot?....

You know, on my frequent trips to the US (before I'm deported again;)) whenever I meet right wing people they're usually REALLY stupid, yeah I know, they're even stupider than me, I'm serious...

To give you an idea how stupid, think Cletus in The Simpsons, you're not stupid, I'm not saying that. You've just missed your way...;)...

The stupidity of the people you meet is probably indicative of the circles you move in and your peer group......just a hint.

Of course based on some of the half-witted ideas and opinions you've expressed I have little faith in your ability to judge intelligence or it's lack.

It is telling that you reference cartoons for your analogies.....:))

Wait......let me put it in terms you can understand......'I know you are, but what am I? Big doo-doo head'.......there, feel more in your element now? ;)

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 1:25 pm

\
I will now tell you why I returned to the UK, on 4th July 1993 I was hit by a hit and run driver and spent a month in a coma. My parents were urged to turn off life support (probably wouldn't happen in the UK) as I had apparently been declared clinically dead...

Lets reexamine this more closely.......the statement is erroneous because they obviously didn't declare you clinically dead.........clinical death is a cessation of blood circulation and breathing.........you weren't considered 'Clinically Dead' for a month.....:wall: :doh:

Perhaps you mean they declared you 'Brain Dead', which is an absence of brain function.......at any rate I seriously doubt the insurance company showed up and said 'Turn off the machines'.

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 1:36 pm

Lets reexamine this more closely.......the statement is erroneous because they obviously didn't declare you clinically dead.........clinical death is a cessation of blood circulation and breathing.........you weren't considered 'Clinically Dead' for a month.....:wall: :doh:

Perhaps you mean they declared you 'Brain Dead', which is an absence of brain function.......at any rate I seriously doubt the insurance company showed up and said 'Turn off the machines'.

Well actually people have told me this since, I was in no position to verify one way or the other.....

I'm surprised sgtmac, why didn't you say that my posts are an indicator that I am braindead, not like you to miss an opportunity like that...

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 1:49 pm

Well actually people have told me this since, I was in no position to verify one way or the other.....

I'm surprised sgtmac, why didn't you say that my posts are an indicator that I am braindead, not like you to miss an opportunity like that...

It's very like me......I'm not going to attack you, i'll attack your opinions. I'll call you opinions silly and uninformed.......but won't say that you are stupid or brain dead.

Besides.......i'm not a doctor.......i'll defer to their opinion on the matter of any brain injury you may or may not have suffered.

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 1:52 pm

Wow.......witty retort......basically a variation on 'I know you are, but what am I?'....:))

Well infantile remarks deserve infantile retorts........

I'm pretty adaptable, even sinking to your level when needs be........

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 1:54 pm

I'm not a doctor.....i'll defer to their opinion on the matter.

Everybody's a comedian, I went for a brain scan and the doctor said "good news, you've got one"....

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 1:55 pm

Well infantile remarks deserve infantile retorts........

I'm pretty adaptable, even sinking to your level when needs be........

'Sinking'? You'd have to rise significantly to reach my level........and at this point I think you're incapable of doing it.

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 1:56 pm

Everybody's a comedian, I went for a brain scan and the doctor said "good news, you've got one"....

That's the problem with the NHS......it's harder to get a second opinion. ;)

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 1:57 pm

It's very like me......I'm not going to attack you, i'll attack your opinions. I'll call you opinions silly and uninformed.......but won't say that you are stupid or brain dead.

Well my opinions differ completely from yours......

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 1:58 pm

Well my opinions differ completely from yours......

That speaks volumes to me.

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 2:00 pm

That speaks volumes to me.

Quite.....

gdoane

August 16th, 2009, 2:01 pm

Again with the stupid right wing opinions.......:rolleyes:.......

You love that about me? Aw shucks, I'm embarrassed now......

It's the right who want insurance companies involved in medicine, don't forget I've spent a while in American hospitals, insurance companies will ALWAYS try to get out of paying...

Terri Sciavo will be thanking the people who turned her machine off, that's my opinion, I know you have a different one but could I care? Take a guess...

Incidentally I believe your right wing liars have been trying to recruit Stephen Hawking to them. Unfortunately he says that he wouldn't be here today but for the NHS, I'm sure that sticks in the craw of those liars...

As bad as Insurance Companies may be, they'll ALWAYS be more honorable than our despicable bastards in government.

Look at the history of the White House in my short 45 years of life:

Lyndon Baines Johnson: Bastard sent 50,000 American kids to die in Vietnam after he faked the Gulf Of Tonkin incident. The man was probably the biggest mass murderer to ever disgrace the White House.

Richard M. Nixon: What a damned despicable double dealing dirty crook he was, eh? He left office in disgrace. President Ford, his successor, referred to him as a "Long National Nightmare."

Gerald R. Ford: Stupid lummox klutz practically fell down every step he ever saw and made the comedian Chevy Chase a rich man through sheer mockery. His Presidency was so bad that we actually elected this next guy:

Jimmy Carter: Double digit inflation, Iranians go mad, gas prices go through the roof and all Mr. Rogers can do is pull on his stupid sweater and have a fireside chat.

Ronald Reagan: Accelerated an unsustainable arms race, did backroom wheeling and dealing with the Contras and the stinking Iranians, and slept through half of his jellybean-eating Presidency.

George H.W. Bush: Read my lips: no new taxes lasted all of about a year. Read my lips, YOU LIED TO ME. Bush41 was a one-term President because of two things. He lied about taxes and he left Saddam Hussein in power instead of killing the bastard.

Bill Clinton: What a man-whore he turned out to be, eh? From Geniffer Flowers to Monica Lewinsky, that man's zipper never stayed up for any woman. As per usual, our President is an international embarrassment.

W. Bush: Warmongering freak didn't have the guts to finish what he started and we're still at war with Afghanistan and Iraq instead of just blasting the bastards to the stone age (which would be an advance in their cases). No, we have to play Mr. Nice Guy with the cretins who attacked and killed Americans. What a WIMP!!

Barack Obama: Crummy Chicago gangland political hack never deals straight and appoints crooks and tax cheats to his cabinet. He was born a bastard and lives life as a scoundrel.

Now you tell me why I'd trust GOVERNMENT to be in charge of health care when I've never seen one decent man in charge of government in the 45 years I've lived in the USA??

HELL NO I don't want these clowns in charge of health care. They can't even handle their own job!!!

mboncher

August 16th, 2009, 2:01 pm

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 2:04 pm

'Sinking'? You'd have to rise significantly to reach my level........and at this point I think you're incapable of doing it.

Ooh get you....

Pride comes before a fall mate........

You shouldn't have such a high opinion of yourself, you may have to live up to it....

captusa

August 16th, 2009, 3:46 pm

Well, if only the good die young then there's a conclusion which may be reached here.

What is the conclusion ?
You cannot conclude that King C. is not good because he did not die young.
BTW a more valid assumption is only the young die good.

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 4:16 pm

Ooh get you....

Pride comes before a fall mate........

You shouldn't have such a high opinion of yourself, you may have to live up to it....

I have an entirely accurate opinion of myself......and you. It's neither high nor low, but is, in fact, spot on in both accounts. ;)

As for living up to it, I do quite nicely.....everyday.

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 4:24 pm

I have an entirely accurate opinion of myself......and you. It's neither high nor low, but is, in fact, spot on in both accounts. ;)

As for living up to it, I do quite nicely.....everyday.

Ever have any problems getting through doorways?.....

Or do they make doorways that accomodate your swelled head?....

It seems that you are the kind of bloke who sees the world in absolute terms, black and white with no grey areas. What I'm trying to say is that I see you exactly as you see me and I believe my opinion is also spot on in every way...

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 4:27 pm

What is the conclusion ?
You cannot conclude that King C. is not good because he did not die young.
BTW a more valid assumption is only the young die good.

I died when I was 34 which is relatively young, I just amuse myself conversing with self righteous people on the internet...;)...

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 4:32 pm

It seems that you are the kind of bloke who sees the world in absolute terms, black and white with no grey areas. What I'm trying to say is that I see you exactly as you see me and I believe my opinion is also spot on in every way...

Yes, but the difference between you and me is that i'm right.....and you're not. You're trying to equivocate, but there is a real qualitative difference.

sgtmac_46

August 16th, 2009, 4:33 pm

I died when I was 34 which is relatively young, I just amuse myself conversing with self righteous people on the internet...;)...

Believe me, you keep many of us amused as well! :))

As for self-righteous, that's pretty ironic from a guy who believes that he's striking a blow against the exploiters of the world who enjoy their prosperity only because of the poverty of the poor.......a prosperous category of which he exempts himself, despite his own prosperity, simply because he thinks he's earned a pass from criticism by talking the talk........self-righteousness AND hypocrisy.......they do go hand in hand. ;)

Put simply......after our pasts talks about wealth and poverty, have you diverted one of your many visits to the US, to Africa instead, to feed hungry children......or do you still just 'talk' a lot? ;)

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 4:47 pm

Yes, but the difference between you and me is that i'm right.....and you're not. You're trying to equivocate, but there is a real qualitative difference.

But you are right only in your own head....

Amongst your own friends you will also be right but you choose your friends as the kind of people you get on with...

Most people in this country would certainly not agree with your worldview whereas they probably would with mine, obviously they would have different ideas on somethings but it would be a LOT closer to mine...

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 5:00 pm

Believe me, you keep many of us amused as well! :))

I am glad that the amusement goes both ways, I would hate to think I was taking without giving...;)...

As for self-righteous, that's pretty ironic from a guy who believes that he's striking a blow against the exploiters of the world who enjoy their prosperity only because of the poverty of the poor.......a prosperous category of which he exempts himself, despite his own prosperity, simply because he thinks he's earned a pass from criticism by talking the talk........self-righteousness AND hypocrisy.......they do go hand in hand. ;)

Hmm, you consider me prosperous? Me who hardly has two beans to rub together which compares quite favourably to you how?...

Put simply......after our pasts talks about wealth and poverty, have you diverted one of your many visits to the US, to Africa instead, to feed hungry children......or do you still just 'talk' a lot? ;)

A penniless man in Africa, you crack me up. If aid from the many aid agencies isn't going to help how would a penniless man from Manchester help? We all know what would help but capitalism won't allow that...

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 5:53 pm

??????????

You are correct that we don't have a written constitution but you're an idiot if you think I don't have the right to free speech...
You have no right to free speech; all you have is the allowance of your government to freely speak your mind. At any time of their choosing they can limit or eliminate that freedom. You live in a dream land of their benevolence... for now. If you need permission from an authority to be free, you are not truly free and you certainly have no right.

I must admit that I DO crap on right wing America, I crap on the lies that your right wing commercials tell about the NHS, I only crap on them because they feel no shame that they're liars....

So far, you have not dispelled any "right wing" statement about the NHS; so what I see from you is simply crap. And commercials? What right wing commercials are you talking about? I certainly have not seen any.

mboncher

August 16th, 2009, 6:23 pm

Just curious. What about the Magna Carta that was a bit of an influence with the framers of the US Constitution?

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 7:04 pm

And I saw on TV how when a dentist gives up his time free in the US and has a free workshop thousands of people without dental care turn up....

And you point is? :eh: I myself do not carry dental insurance even though it is available; I am self insured and save money being so. I would save even more if someone offered free dental care and I took advantage of it. Most people like things that are free even if they can afford to pay; people showing up at a free workshop is not an indication of anything except that.

OldSchoolConservative

August 16th, 2009, 7:04 pm

Without having read most of this thread my answer is no. There will be some genuine altruistic people by nature but man by nature is not inherently good. However, upbringing alters this inherent nature of bad. I guess my answer is really based on religion that man is born into sin and does not really have a good nature until they are born again. What keeps most people in check to be good is society imposing laws.

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 7:09 pm

Just curious. What about the Magna Carta that was a bit of an influence with the framers of the US Constitution?

Yes; the Magna Carta influenced our Founders. They included the fundamental premise of the Magna Carta that "No freeman shall be taken, imprisoned,...or in any other way destroyed...except by the lawful judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land. To no one will we sell, to none will we deny or delay, right or justice." as the 5th Amendment of the Constitution.

It had nothing to do with free speech.

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 7:16 pm

Well, if only the good die young then there's a conclusion which may be reached here.

"Only the good die young" is a myth... you know... like the myth that the NHS provides adequate medical service to the entire population of Britain. ;)

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 7:22 pm

Yes but I often visit the US, I resent the fact that people have said I crap on the US, rather I have an opinion on certain things...

Unfortunately these seem to be things that a certain sector of society seem to hold dear, well I have an opinion and like it or not I am entitled to my opinion....

Yes you are entitled to your opinion... even though, in my opinion, that opinion is crap. :razz:

If I walked into your house and told you that in my opinion your house smells bad; mother is fat; your father is ugly; your sister is a slut and your dog is all four you would probably take offense now wouldn't you? Get the point?

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 7:30 pm

I am 50, why do you want to know?.....

Because you sound about 17.....FYI

You have to understand that a lot of middle aged Brits live with their Mums. ;)

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 7:33 pm

gdoane

August 16th, 2009, 7:37 pm

And you point is? :eh: I myself do not carry dental insurance even though it is available; I am self insured and save money being so. I would save even more if someone offered free dental care and I took advantage of it. Most people like things that are free even if they can afford to pay; people showing up at a free workshop is not an indication of anything except that.

More than a few people who take advantage of free stuff can afford to pay for it.

Who can forget the lunch line photo of Michelle Obama posing for a Blackberry Pearl photo? A $500 smartphone with a $100 per month plan in a soup kitchen?

It seems to me that a lot of "poor people" are bald faced liars about their poverty. When you can sign up for food stamps on-line because you'd starve without them, government assistance has crossed the line into absurdity.

You think I'm kidding?

https://www.healthearizona.org/app/Default.aspx

Poor people can apply for government assistance online from their home computers.

Our government is too damned stupid to see the irony of it all.

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 7:47 pm

I have to say no. My empirical evidence is that children have to be taught what is good, otherwise they act on basal survival instincts that are considered bad by 99% of all societal standards out there. Therefore good is not the 'default setting'.

Your premise is inherently flawed. If all children are born bad, where did good parents come from to teach them goodness?

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 7:54 pm

More than a few people who take advantage of free stuff can afford to pay for it.

Who can forget the lunch line photo of Michelle Obama posing for a Blackberry Pearl photo? A $500 smartphone with a $100 per month plan in a soup kitchen?

It seems to me that a lot of "poor people" are bald faced liars about their poverty. When you can sign up for food stamps on-line because you'd starve without them, government assistance has crossed the line into absurdity.

You think I'm kidding?

https://www.healthearizona.org/app/Default.aspx

Poor people can apply for government assistance online from their home computers.

Our government is too damned stupid to see the irony of it all.

No, I do not think you are kidding. I have seen it first hand many times. Some people make a hobby out of it... some even make a career out of it.

http://www.neatorama.com/2008/04/27/50-an-hour-professional-panhandler/

angelicmadrigal

August 16th, 2009, 8:05 pm

Your premise is inherently flawed. If all children are born bad, where did good parents come from to teach them goodness?

It's actually not flawed at all. Humans learned through experience that society needed rules. The concept of good vs evil didn't come around until long after that, as a way to take "why should you follow the rules" to a more....philosophical level.

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 8:06 pm

You have no right to free speech; all you have is the allowance of your government to freely speak your mind. At any time of their choosing they can limit or eliminate that freedom. You live in a dream land of their benevolence... for now. If you need permission from an authority to be free, you are not truly free and you certainly have no right.

So far, you have not dispelled any "right wing" statement about the NHS; so what I see from you is simply crap. And commercials? What right wing commercials are you talking about? I certainly have not seen any.

I have 'freedom of speech' as a right, don't start coming out with all the bs about America being free when the last administration was wiretapping...

By the way, all I hear from you ALWAYS is crap.......

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 8:10 pm

"Only the good die young" is a myth... you know... like the myth that the NHS provides adequate medical service to the entire population of Britain. ;)

And a bit like the myth that the NHS doesn't treat the elderly, as was put forward by the liars in the US trying to push their right wing agenda...

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 8:15 pm

Yes you are entitled to your opinion... even though, in my opinion, that opinion is crap. :razz:

If I walked into your house and told you that in my opinion your house smells bad; mother is fat; your father is ugly; your sister is a slut and your dog is all four you would probably take offense now wouldn't you? Get the point?

Not really, I'm not as thin skinned as you....

Anyway making that stupid analogy is just that, stupid...

On this site I often find myself defending Britain but when the criticism is justified I agree with it or just ignore it...

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 8:16 pm

You have to understand that a lot of middle aged Brits live with their Mums. ;)

Really? I haven't actually noticed...........

Sorry, can't think of any actually......

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 8:20 pm

Why are we to believe Stephen Hawking? After all, Steven Hawking said we need to reduce our output of CO2 or we will end up like Venus. :rolleyes:

You don't have to believe him but on this occasion Hawking took great offence at being used in right wing attack ads....

Incidentally I would MUCH rather trust him than you, no offence but I think he may be cleverer than you...;)...

mboncher

August 16th, 2009, 8:24 pm

I have 'freedom of speech' as a right, don't start coming out with all the bs about America being free when the last administration was wiretapping...

By the way, all I hear from you ALWAYS is crap.......
LOL... no no... they just acted like American Express:

"This call may be recorded for quality control." :lol:

King Cantona

August 16th, 2009, 8:32 pm

LOL... no no... they just acted like American Express:

"This call may be recorded for quality control." :lol:

When I call a credit card firm over here I always get told "this call may be recorded for training purposes"....

There may be something sinister going on, I must get my tin foil hat......

mboncher

August 16th, 2009, 8:37 pm

When I call a credit card firm over here I always get told "this call may be recorded for training purposes"....

There may be something sinister going on, I must get my tin foil hat......
You do that... LOL. The phone circumvents the tinfoil turning it into an amplifier.

My point is the whole Patriot Act outrage is bogus. Time of war, modernizing of tapping techniques is a good thing. Tapping the phones of your enemies and possible agents inside your nation... file that under just plain smart.

I know of no single American who has had his rights infringed on by the Patriot Act yet. But P-BO is in power and that very well could change. It's one reason why I like the fact that the Patriot Act has a sunset clause.

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 8:57 pm

It's actually not flawed at all. Humans learned through experience that society needed rules. The concept of good vs evil didn't come around until long after that, as a way to take "why should you follow the rules" to a more....philosophical level.

I'll meet you half way. Perhaps originally all babies were born "bad." But as you say, humans learned through experience that society needs rules. For a very long time now, "good" people far outweigh "bad" people in terms of shear numbers. The problem is that one bad person can very quickly destroy the works of a lot of good people. It is always easier to destroy than build. And when people see the results of that bad person, it is easy to make a negative judgement about "his" people in general. One bad apple truly can spoil the barrel.

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 9:10 pm

I have 'freedom of speech' as a right, don't start coming out with all the bs about America being free when the last administration was wiretapping...

Look up the difference between "rights" and a "privilege." You have no right to free speech; it is the policy of your Government to allow you to speak freely. But you have no guarantee (as we do) that the policy will remain as is; already they are hedging on it... take the new rules with regard to criticizing Muslims for example.

Our Constitutional right to free speech does not extend to foreigners overseas. Wiretaps were of international communication originating oversees... some of which came into this country... some possibly to American citizens. There was no unauthorized "wiretapping" of Americans going on. Incidentally... the Obama Administration is still doing the same thing... as well they should. Security of the American people is a top priority of any Administration.

By the way, all I hear from you ALWAYS is crap.......

I'll bow to your opinion there... You are the expert. :razz:

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 9:14 pm

Not really, I'm not as thin skinned as you....

Anyway making that stupid analogy is just that, stupid...

On this site I often find myself defending Britain but when the criticism is justified I agree with it or just ignore it...

Again... my skin has nothing to do with it.

You would not be in the position of having to defend yourself or Britain if you did not attack the US and other members here in the first place. The respect you get (or do not get) is entirely within your own hands.

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 9:16 pm

You don't have to believe him but on this occasion Hawking took great offence at being used in right wing attack ads....

Incidentally I would MUCH rather trust him than you, no offence but I think he may be cleverer than you...;)...

He was pretty emotional about Venus too.

You keep mentioning right wing attack ads... I have yet to see one... maybe you could post a link.

angelicmadrigal

August 16th, 2009, 9:58 pm

I'll meet you half way. Perhaps originally all babies were born "bad." But as you say, humans learned through experience that society needs rules. For a very long time now, "good" people far outweigh "bad" people in terms of shear numbers. The problem is that one bad person can very quickly destroy the works of a lot of good people. It is always easier to destroy than build. And when people see the results of that bad person, it is easy to make a negative judgement about "his" people in general. One bad apple truly can spoil the barrel.

::shrugs:: I don't necessarily think living by instinct is a bad thing, it just isn't conducive tot he types of societies humans have created.

Samm

August 16th, 2009, 10:07 pm

::shrugs:: I don't necessarily think living by instinct is a bad thing, it just isn't conducive tot he types of societies humans have created.

I agree... if you like anarchy.

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 8:35 am

Look up the difference between "rights" and a "privilege." You have no right to free speech; it is the policy of your Government to allow you to speak freely. But you have no guarantee (as we do) that the policy will remain as is; already they are hedging on it... take the new rules with regard to criticizing Muslims for example.

Well then answer me this Einstein, why am I not allowed to swear on this site? Why are you (an American) not allowed to swear? As an American with all your rights you should be allowed to say what you want shouldn't you? Or is it the same as it often is over here and it is so as to not cause offence?...

Our Constitutional right to free speech does not extend to foreigners overseas. Wiretaps were of international communication originating oversees... some of which came into this country... some possibly to American citizens. There was no unauthorized "wiretapping" of Americans going on. Incidentally... the Obama Administration is still doing the same thing... as well they should. Security of the American people is a top priority of any Administration.

Yes we must ensure that Americans can sleep easy in their beds...

I'll bow to your opinion there... You are the expert. :razz:

Your version of I know you are, what am I, was it?......

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 8:40 am

Again... my skin has nothing to do with it.

You would not be in the position of having to defend yourself or Britain if you did not attack the US and other members here in the first place. The respect you get (or do not get) is entirely within your own hands.

As a champion of free speech (or have I got that wrong) you should be applauding. I criticise when I feel the need, there was a helluva lot wrong with the last administration but I personally see very little wrong with this one....

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 9:30 am

He was pretty emotional about Venus too.

You keep mentioning right wing attack ads... I have yet to see one... maybe you could post a link.

Why should I do the work? These ads have been played on the news quite a lot over here, Sky News, BBC, ITV, Channel4....

angelicmadrigal

August 17th, 2009, 10:09 am

Why should I do the work? These ads have been played on the news quite a lot over here, Sky News, BBC, ITV, Channel4....

Why would they post our political ads in Britian? That seems kinda....odd.

Techgod

August 17th, 2009, 10:12 am

It depends on if they get anything out of it.

So no.

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 10:36 am

Why would they post our political ads in Britian? That seems kinda....odd.

They're being shown by the news as an indication of how the NHS is being misrepresented in the US....

Just to attack Obama's plans, attack him by all means but lay off the lying......

snagswolf

August 17th, 2009, 11:07 am

Well then answer me this Einstein, why am I not allowed to swear on this site? Why are you (an American) not allowed to swear? As an American with all your rights you should be allowed to say what you want shouldn't you? Or is it the same as it often is over here and it is so as to not cause offence?...
Following the rules of a private forum do not infringe upon free speech, because it does not prevent us from saying what we want, but only where we want to say it.

In other words, we can still swear, but not here on Hannity.

However, when government makes the rules on what can or can't be said, then that IS a violation of Free Speech, because they are limiting what you can say, not where you can say it.

As for 'causing offense', that is the specific reason why our Freedom of Speech is guaranteed by law. There is no need for such protections on speech that doesn't offend anyone. There is no right to 'Freedom from being offended', and it's certainly not a reason to limit someone's freedom of speech.

So tell me, are you content with the Government telling you what you can or can't say, based on whether or not someone, somewhere, is offended by it?

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 11:25 am

So tell me, are you content with the Government telling you what you can or can't say, based on whether or not someone, somewhere, is offended by it?

Well in any democracy you can't please all of the people all of the time......

And I'm sure that applies to you too....

Personally I would like to say what I like....

But I wouldn't cause offence if I said what I like.....

snagswolf

August 17th, 2009, 1:29 pm

Well in any democracy you can't please all of the people all of the time......

And I'm sure that applies to you too....

Personally I would like to say what I like....

But I wouldn't cause offence if I said what I like.....
So that would be a 'yes', you are content with the Government determining what you can say or not, depending on whether or not it offends someone.

BTW, when it's up to the govenment, your opinion of whether what you're saying is offensive is irrelevant. You're allowing someone else to make that decision, not you.

But if you're happy living like a sheep in a pen, I guess you're living in the right place.

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 1:46 pm

So that would be a 'yes', you are content with the Government determining what you can say or not, depending on whether or not it offends someone.

Well actually that's a no, but if it stops idiot speak I suppose I may consider it a price worth paying...

BTW, when it's up to the govenment, your opinion of whether what you're saying is offensive is irrelevant. You're allowing someone else to make that decision, not you.

Yes but personally I myself would not use disparaging or offensive words against minorities, the trouble is that some would....

But if you're happy living like a sheep in a pen, I guess you're living in the right place.

I am happy living under this government, yes, thanks for asking......

angelicmadrigal

August 17th, 2009, 1:57 pm

They're being shown by the news as an indication of how the NHS is being misrepresented in the US....

Just to attack Obama's plans, attack him by all means but lay off the lying......

Was just curious, you don't need to jump my ass about it. I don't knwo what the hell your problem is, but I wasn't attacking you so I don't need the attitude.

snagswolf

August 17th, 2009, 2:01 pm

Well actually that's a no, but if it stops idiot speak I suppose I may consider it a price worth paying...
Well, then 'actually' it's a 'yes'.

So, we've determined that you think that freedom of speech should be limited for those who you personally find to be 'idiots'.

Yes but personally I myself would not use disparaging or offensive words against minorities, the trouble is that some would....
And we've determined that you find it outside of the realm of possibility that anyone could find anything you say to be offensive.

That pretty much sums up the arrogance of liberalism, and why folks like you are so dangerous to the liberties of mankind.

I am happy living under this government, yes, thanks for asking......
Baaaaa!

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 2:11 pm

Was just curious, you don't need to jump my ass about it. I don't knwo what the hell your problem is, but I wasn't attacking you so I don't need the attitude.

????????

What attitude? You haven't seen any of these ads have you (or have you?) let alone had anything to do with them...

I have no problem and apologise if you got the wrong impression but MY anger is directed only at the people who produced and aired these ads.......

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 2:15 pm

Well you may consider the right to bear arms sacrosanct but I'm glad that such a right doesn't exist for me...

You were born a bit too late, the frontier is where I imagine you'd be happiest...

snagswolf

August 17th, 2009, 2:18 pm

johnrocks

August 17th, 2009, 2:21 pm

????????

What attitude? You haven't seen any of these ads have you (or have you?) let alone had anything to do with them...

I have no problem and apologise if you got the wrong impression but MY anger is directed only at the people who produced and aired these ads.......

Why not? Most of the high crime areas here aren't by law abiding gun owners for the most part,most are in the inner cities where illegal drugs rule the day and black on black crime is out of control.

mboncher

August 17th, 2009, 2:41 pm

Well you may consider the right to bear arms sacrosanct but I'm glad that such a right doesn't exist for me...

You were born a bit too late, the frontier is where I imagine you'd be happiest...
You obviously don't remember watching the Rodney King riots where the police were overwhelmed by rampaging racists and people had to turn to each other to defend their own life, limb and property. I remember distinctly pictures of store owners standing on the roof of their stores with shotguns because the police would not come due to greater problems.

There have been multiple cases of gunmen on campus who were stopped by students being legally armed. If there had been one or two armed students on the Virginia Tech campus, that lunatic may not have gotten beyond the dorms where he killed his first two people.

There is a place for personal weapon ownership in a civilized society. Police coverage is not universally effective, and is reactive only.

On the flip side of the coin, when Australia disarmed it's citizenry, home invasions went up 1600% in one year. Why? Criminals do not bother obeying the law. What a concept!

The right may not exist to you, but you get the privilage of ignoring it. Many people get it and require it to protect themselves and all they love in a manner they feel necessary.

However, when government makes the rules on what can or can't be said, then that IS a violation of Free Speech, because they are limiting what you can say, not where you can say it.

Yep. We do not have a right to be un-offended, and you can't take away people's right to be *******s.

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 3:49 pm

You obviously don't remember watching the Rodney King riots where the police were overwhelmed by rampaging racists and people had to turn to each other to defend their own life, limb and property. I remember distinctly pictures of store owners standing on the roof of their stores with shotguns because the police would not come due to greater problems.

You reckon? As a matter of fact I ws living in the US at the time and quite apart from everything else I feel a bit smug because our judiciary are very unlikely to exonerate police flagrantly overstepping their boundaries....

There have been multiple cases of gunmen on campus who were stopped by students being legally armed. If there had been one or two armed students on the Virginia Tech campus, that lunatic may not have gotten beyond the dorms where he killed his first two people.

And I'm supposed to believe this? Why? Because you said so? Please provide a link then...

There is a place for personal weapon ownership in a civilized society. Police coverage is not universally effective, and is reactive only.

On the flip side of the coin, when Australia disarmed it's citizenry, home invasions went up 1600% in one year. Why? Criminals do not bother obeying the law. What a concept!

The right may not exist to you, but you get the privilage of ignoring it. Many people get it and require it to protect themselves and all they love in a manner they feel necessary.

And yet when I leave the US and touch down in England I feel so much safer, why is that, do you think?...

Yep. We do not have a right to be un-offended, and you can't take away people's right to be *******s.

And I don't want to, don't take away my right to be a ******* either......

PS Is self righteousness a normal malaise of the right?......

snagswolf

August 17th, 2009, 3:57 pm

And yet when I leave the US and touch down in England I feel so much safer, why is that, do you think?...
Because you're back in your pen, under the control of your herder.

Baaaa.

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 4:01 pm

Because you're back in your pen, under the control of your herder.

Baaaa.

Is that right? Well the shepherds ARE better at their job than any US administration...

mboncher

August 17th, 2009, 4:05 pm

PS Is self righteousness a normal malaise of the right?......

Apparently not as much as common as it is among socialism which is predicated on class warfare and elitism.

You reckon? As a matter of fact I ws living in the US at the time and quite apart from everything else I feel a bit smug because our judiciary are very unlikely to exonerate police flagrantly overstepping their boundaries....

But you are apparently quick to forgive an entire community for rioting and destroying and disrupting the lives of all others because they saw racism with stupid cops. How bad were the OJ Simpson riots again? Oh that's right. There was none.

And yet when I leave the US and touch down in England I feel so much safer, why is that, do you think?...

Everyone feels that when they go back home, it's called comfort of the familiar. Has nothing to do with national boundaries except for the intellectually dishonest.

And I'm supposed to believe this? Why? Because you said so? Please provide a link then...

Be your own research monkey. Of course the NRA is a wealth of information in this regard. Yes, the NRA has a bias towards reporting this kind of stuff the same way the Gun Control groups and the anti-gun mainstream media have an interest in showing how it's evil to own weapons.

RickRhetoric

August 17th, 2009, 4:05 pm

No.

It's more fun and much easier to be bad. You can't be good and make any real money. A man can't be too rich; too thin; have too much hair; or be too bad.

Greyclouds

August 17th, 2009, 4:07 pm

Yes or No and why do you think so?

So long as people are capable of feeling empathy, they have the ability to be selfless.

So long as people are capable of being short-sighted, they have the ability to be selfish.

Human beings are neither good nor evil; they are either selfish or selfless to varying degrees.

snagswolf

August 17th, 2009, 4:10 pm

Is that right? Well the shepherds ARE better at their job than any US administration...
Well, the U.S. government isn't supposed to be shepherds, and the American people aren't supposed to be sheep, so I'm damn glad to hear that.

Baaaa.

mboncher

August 17th, 2009, 4:10 pm

Greyclouds

August 17th, 2009, 4:20 pm

Selfishness is not a bad thing, so long as it is not at the expense of others. Since the world is not a zero sum game, my choice to keep what I have created, worked for and earned to myself, is not a bad thing. Nor is any decision to earn, create or work for something taking it away from someone else.

I agree, and I should have clarified my point. When I stated that there are shades of gray between the selfish and the selfless, I also meant to state that no one person can be completely selfish or selfless.

Even the most selfish bastard must look out for the desires of others, even if to manipulate them. Even the most selfless person must eat food to survive, and that food could have been given to another person instead.

You are more than entitled to keep what you earn and use it to sustain yourself; you have an obligation to other people to keep yourself in a state of fitness as long as possible.

King Cantona

August 17th, 2009, 4:20 pm

Baaaa.

:):)

Yes snagswolf, very witty........

mboncher

August 17th, 2009, 4:48 pm

I agree, and I should have clarified my point. When I stated that there are shades of gray between the selfish and the selfless, I also meant to state that no one person can be completely selfish or selfless.

Even the most selfish bastard must look out for the desires of others, even if to manipulate them. Even the most selfless person must eat food to survive, and that food could have been given to another person instead.

You are more than entitled to keep what you earn and use it to sustain yourself; you have an obligation to other people to keep yourself in a state of fitness as long as possible.
Cool. On the same page then.

Samm

August 17th, 2009, 5:56 pm

Well then answer me this Einstein, why am I not allowed to swear on this site? Why are you (an American) not allowed to swear? As an American with all your rights you should be allowed to say what you want shouldn't you? Or is it the same as it often is over here and it is so as to not cause offence?...
One does not have to be Einstein to know that you and I can say whatever we chose to at any time we wish on this Forum without penalty of law (and swearing is allowed, damn it...) but that the privately owned and operated site has the right to boot your ass out of here for breaking its rules. Neither Government nor the Constitution have anything to do with it. :rolleyes:

Your free speech privileges "over there" are very much like our privileges here at Hannity... they are provided and are subject to change at a moments notice at the discretion of the management. My free speech rights cannot be revoked by the Government... as much as Obama/Pelosi and company would like to shut us up.

Yes we must ensure that Americans can sleep easy in their beds...

Yes... at least we could under Bush... not so sure about Obama. He doesn't have any appreciation how dedicated some people are to kill Americans... and Brits.[/quote]

Your version of I know you are, what am I, was it?......

Not at all... you are the most accompished BSer here... your Einstein comment proves it.

Samm

August 17th, 2009, 6:11 pm

As a champion of free speech (or have I got that wrong) you should be applauding. I criticise when I feel the need, there was a helluva lot wrong with the last administration but I personally see very little wrong with this one....

The US Constitution does not extend to Brits in Britain... and it is my Constitutional right in my Country to criticize you all I want (within the rules of Hannity.com of course.) :razz:

But have I or anybody else told you to shut up? :eh:

It comes as no surprise that you think Obama is great... he has every characteristic that you admire in an American leader... dedicated Marxist, accomplished liar, and pathetic apologist. It must have warmed your soul when he came over to Europe and explained what a bad Country we are and how we are going to do our best to make everybody like us now.

mboncher

August 17th, 2009, 6:25 pm

The mediocre always resent the great, ultimately.

Samm

August 17th, 2009, 6:26 pm

Why should I do the work? These ads have been played on the news quite a lot over here, Sky News, BBC, ITV, Channel4....

Why on Earth would conservatives in America advertise on British TV? :eh:

Methinks you (or British TV) are making this up.

Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese

August 17th, 2009, 7:00 pm

Yes or No and why do you think so?

No.

Most people are self-involved scumbags and would gladly literally murder you if it benefits them enough.

nortman

August 17th, 2009, 7:09 pm

i think the majority of people are basically good.......

but the bad ones get more attention......

i think this by my everyday experiences with people......
+1

With over 300 million people in the US alone, if people weren't basically good, we would have utter chaos.

Samm

August 17th, 2009, 7:10 pm

No.

Most people are self-involved scumbags and would gladly literally murder you if it benefits them enough.

Right. :rolleyes:

Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese

August 17th, 2009, 7:16 pm

Right. :rolleyes:

What? People suck. People look out for number one. People lie and betray their best friends and their families all the time. And that's not even counting the really nasty piece of work. There's nobody that won't throw you under the bus if the stakes are high enough, except maybe your mom (and that ain't true in my case).

Trust is for suckers. I got one person in the whole world I confide in, and I don't tell them everything. Everyone else I thought were my peoples betrayed me for their own personal gain.

gdoane

August 17th, 2009, 7:42 pm

+1

With over 300 million people in the US alone, if people weren't basically good, we would have utter chaos.

With over 1% of the US population either incarcerated or on parole or probation, we're closer to chaos than any other nation in the world.

People aren't basically good. Entire enterprises are based on that fact. Would we need lawyers if people were basically good? Would we need cops and judges and jailers? Would we need locks and chains and passwords and alarm systems if people were basically good?

Of course not. We're surrounded with proof that people are bad so why would anybody believe in any inherent good in mankind?

Dragon1963

August 17th, 2009, 8:31 pm

Sheesh! I didn't realize how many humans had become so cynical.

mboncher

August 17th, 2009, 8:39 pm

No.

Most people are self-involved scumbags and would gladly literally murder you if it benefits them enough.
Ahhh the joys of relativism. If it feels good to me, it IS good FOR me!

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 12:26 am

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 12:34 am

Sheesh! I didn't realize how many humans had become so cynical.

Me either. There no possible way that the majority of people could be bad... less than half the population would never be able to prevent anarchy; they would be totally overwhelmed by evil.

I would be shocked if even 10% of people are what anyone could honestly describe as bad. I think the generalization that some people here are making about people being bad is much like the bad rap that teenagers get... a few bad ones define the whole group as bad in the minds of some.

gdoane

August 18th, 2009, 1:57 am

Me either. There no possible way that the majority of people could be bad... less than half the population would never be able to prevent anarchy; they would be totally overwhelmed by evil.

Yes, there is a possible way. Leverage. Good people tend to have more resources than bad people do. This occurs for several reasons, not the least of which boils down to trustworthiness and responsibility. Trustworthy, responsible people are granted access to resources denied to untrustworthy and irresponsible people.

Convicted felons aren't even allowed to vote or carry guns. I'm allowed to do both, so I'm a much bigger force to reckon with than a no-account thug with a rap sheet.

I would be shocked if even 10% of people are what anyone could honestly describe as bad. I think the generalization that some people here are making about people being bad is much like the bad rap that teenagers get... a few bad ones define the whole group as bad in the minds of some.

I would be shocked if even 10% of people are what anyone could describe as good.

I try to be good, I make the effort to deal straight and be a good, honest man but I'm about a selfish bastard. I don't support any family, no wife, no kids and I've got the biggest house on the block, drive a huge gas guzzling truck and I don't rightly care that I burn $10 of electricity in an average day. I do what I want, how I want, when I want and I answer to nobody but me for it.

I wouldn't have the resources to be a jerk if I were a jerk, though. Most of what I've gotten and achieved is because of trusting, be it my FCC licenses or my Top Secret security clearances or passing fingerprinting and criminal background checks (I'm squeaky clean) and being clean is a valuable thing.

Clean folks have leverage. I make about double the national average household income because I've got a squeaky clean record, a nice military honorable discharge, and a history of being a trustworthy guy.

The top 10% can leverage the other 90% no problemo. Cream rises to the top.

jmar75

August 18th, 2009, 2:20 am

Sheesh! I didn't realize how many humans had become so cynical.

I don't consider it cynical thinking but honest and realistic thinking. As hard as it is for so many people to accept...man is no different than any other living organism on this planet. Our main priority is to take care of us and ours. As individuals that is. Also, what a person does that could make them be considered "bad" is hardly a black and white issue. Yes there are the givens of child molesters, rapists and that sort of scum but for the most part, "bad" is a relative term.

mboncher

August 18th, 2009, 3:03 am

Sheesh! I didn't realize how many humans had become so cynical.
Who's cynical? I'm quite the optimist, considering what I've seen with human nature.

mboncher

August 18th, 2009, 3:09 am

Me either. There no possible way that the majority of people could be bad... less than half the population would never be able to prevent anarchy; they would be totally overwhelmed by evil.

I would be shocked if even 10% of people are what anyone could honestly describe as bad. I think the generalization that some people here are making about people being bad is much like the bad rap that teenagers get... a few bad ones define the whole group as bad in the minds of some.
Okay... now see, it's not that people are unable to fight an evil nature. Good can be taught. We teach our children manners and altruism and charity and cooperation and all things that to survival instincts would be bad. We also teach them the value of suffering for others, sacrifice, self denial and other virtues as well that on the surface seem very counter intuitive, but enrich our lives for the better of ourselves and others.

The point I'm making is that these are not natural default states. They are learned from others in their society. To some, these things take and flourish. To others they wither and die. Some twist them around to become parodies of themselves and others exaggerate them till they suffocate everything in contact with them.

Everyone has the capability for good and evil in them. That is an essential struggle of free will; the choice which is made solely from one's own conscience and knowledge to do one or the other.

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 4:37 am

Yes, there is a possible way. Leverage. Good people tend to have more resources than bad people do. This occurs for several reasons, not the least of which boils down to trustworthiness and responsibility. Trustworthy, responsible people are granted access to resources denied to untrustworthy and irresponsible people.

Convicted felons aren't even allowed to vote or carry guns. I'm allowed to do both, so I'm a much bigger force to reckon with than a no-account thug with a rap sheet.

I would be shocked if even 10% of people are what anyone could describe as good.

I try to be good, I make the effort to deal straight and be a good, honest man but I'm about a selfish bastard. I don't support any family, no wife, no kids and I've got the biggest house on the block, drive a huge gas guzzling truck and I don't rightly care that I burn $10 of electricity in an average day. I do what I want, how I want, when I want and I answer to nobody but me for it.

I wouldn't have the resources to be a jerk if I were a jerk, though. Most of what I've gotten and achieved is because of trusting, be it my FCC licenses or my Top Secret security clearances or passing fingerprinting and criminal background checks (I'm squeaky clean) and being clean is a valuable thing.

Clean folks have leverage. I make about double the national average household income because I've got a squeaky clean record, a nice military honorable discharge, and a history of being a trustworthy guy.

The top 10% can leverage the other 90% no problemo. Cream rises to the top.

Think of everyone you know... are most of them bad people? Look around you in public places; shopping malls; the grocery stores; schools; the movie houses; restaurants; sports venues; churches... are most of those people bad? The premise that most people are bad is so far from the reality that we see every day it is not even close.

Bad people do not follow the rules... that is kind of what makes them bad people. 10 % of the people (the good folks) could not control the other 90% of people if they were bad unless the bad people were locked up and the good people kept them under armed observation. No how; no way.

However, if the 10% were bad people... yes, they could just as you say, control the other 90% precisely because they are bad people and don't play by the rules. And since they, the bad people, aren't in control - quite, that disproves the hypothesis... thus most people are NOT bad.

StoneScratcher

August 18th, 2009, 8:24 am

What? People suck. People look out for number one. People lie and betray their best friends and their families all the time. And that's not even counting the really nasty piece of work. There's nobody that won't throw you under the bus if the stakes are high enough, except maybe your mom (and that ain't true in my case).

Trust is for suckers. I got one person in the whole world I confide in, and I don't tell them everything. Everyone else I thought were my peoples betrayed me for their own personal gain.

If you took a human baby and brought them up sleeping on a bed of nails, they would accept that bed of nails as their comfortable bed. Growing up while sleeping on a bed of nails is acceptable to that baby...to that child...to that grown-up who moves out and buys a bed of nails for their own home.

Even if you put a feather bed on top of a fluffy pillow-top mattress and gave it to this person to sleep on--they wouldn't be able to feel comfortable enough to sleep unless they had what they were always used to--a bed of nails.

Why do they want the painful bed of nails? It's not because they don't trust that feather bed, fluffy pillow-topped mattress will be good for them, I mean, how would they really know...they are conditioned to accept sleeping in pain.

They choose the bed of nails because it is familiar, it is known, it is tried and true (although painful). They find comfort in knowing what to expect, even though pain is the outcome.

They don't trust their TRUST in anything outside that bed of nails, so they gravitate toward the places in their lives that give them the outcome they always expect: pain.

When you look at friends who gather, or couples that are together, or groups/clubs that form--observe them. If you know someone's "comfort zone" (in their history), do you notice there will be a husband who married someone who is just like their drunk mother (they marry a drunk)? Do you notice a group will hang together who all have in common (in their upbringing) abusive or neglectful parents and they all abuse and neglect each other in subtle ways which remind them all of that "comfort zone" of past of being boinked on the head with a broom by mom, or belted to a pulp by dad, or insulted to utter shame by a stepdad/stepmom?

What I'm trying to say is this: Perhaps you are seeing bad in others because you don't trust your trust. You trust what you know--and what you may know, from your past, is bad.

I mean no offense, honestly. I had to learn this the hard way...so I'm offering you a feather, so to speak, in hope you'll fly off of your bed of nails (if this is what you're on).

Andrew_980

August 18th, 2009, 8:43 am

:think::think:
Wow, well thought out and deep.

King Cantona

August 18th, 2009, 8:45 am

Not at all... you are the most accompished BSer here... your Einstein comment proves it.

Thank you, I aim to please....

King Cantona

August 18th, 2009, 8:50 am

Why on Earth would conservatives in America advertise on British TV? :eh:

Methinks you (or British TV) are making this up.

:rolleyes:

They are not advertising on British TV, these lying ads are being shown by British NEWS as an example of the lengths that some right wing idealogues in the US will go to to maintain the status quo....

And 90% of Brits are incensed by it........

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/17/free-health-us-style-115875-21602170/

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/mark-austin/2009/08/16/nhs-bashers-make-me-sick-115875-21599510/

Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese

August 18th, 2009, 9:20 am

If you actually believe that and are not just pulling our chains I truly feel sorry for you.

What can I say? I don't trust people as far as I can throw them, and I'm inevitably proven right. After I shake someone's hand I count my fingers. When they smile, I look for the knife.

Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese

August 18th, 2009, 9:25 am

If you took a human baby and brought them up sleeping on a bed of nails, they would accept that bed of nails as their comfortable bed. Growing up while sleeping on a bed of nails is acceptable to that baby...to that child...to that grown-up who moves out and buys a bed of nails for their own home.

Even if you put a feather bed on top of a fluffy pillow-top mattress and gave it to this person to sleep on--they wouldn't be able to feel comfortable enough to sleep unless they had what they were always used to--a bed of nails.

Why do they want the painful bed of nails? It's not because they don't trust that feather bed, fluffy pillow-topped mattress will be good for them, I mean, how would they really know...they are conditioned to accept sleeping in pain.

They choose the bed of nails because it is familiar, it is known, it is tried and true (although painful). They find comfort in knowing what to expect, even though pain is the outcome.

They don't trust their TRUST in anything outside that bed of nails, so they gravitate toward the places in their lives that give them the outcome they always expect: pain.

When you look at friends who gather, or couples that are together, or groups/clubs that form--observe them. If you know someone's "comfort zone" (in their history), do you notice there will be a husband who married someone who is just like their drunk mother (they marry a drunk)? Do you notice a group will hang together who all have in common (in their upbringing) abusive or neglectful parents and they all abuse and neglect each other in subtle ways which remind them all of that "comfort zone" of past of being boinked on the head with a broom by mom, or belted to a pulp by dad, or insulted to utter shame by a stepdad/stepmom?

What I'm trying to say is this: Perhaps you are seeing bad in others because you don't trust your trust. You trust what you know--and what you may know, from your past, is bad.

I mean no offense, honestly. I had to learn this the hard way...so I'm offering you a feather, so to speak, in hope you'll fly off of your bed of nails (if this is what you're on).

I mean, don't get me wrong, just because I was beaten and starved as a kid, ran with crooks in my teens, saw things that would curl your hair as a medic and spent years working in nightclubs, it probably does mean that I'm pretty quick to assume that people have ulterior motives and dishonest intentions.

However, the fact is, people always prove me right. Just because I can see it for what it is, while most people blind willfully blind themselves to it, doesn't mean that if I changed my mindset all of a sudden people would all start living in the land of candy and gumdrops. The power of positive thinking only goes so far.

StoneScratcher

August 18th, 2009, 9:36 am

I mean, don't get me wrong, just because I was beaten and starved as a kid, ran with crooks in my teens, saw things that would curl your hair as a medic and spent years working in nightclubs, it probably does mean that I'm pretty quick to assume that people have ulterior motives and dishonest intentions.

However, the fact is, people always prove me right. Just because I can see it for what it is, while most people blind willfully blind themselves to it, doesn't mean that if I changed my mindset all of a sudden people would all start living in the land of candy and gumdrops. The power of positive thinking only goes so far.

Maybe you shouldn't worry about proving yourself right. Even a gumdrop can taste bitter if you need for it to taste that way.

By the way, although only cyberly, you are considered (to me) a friend.

You may not trust me, and you really have no reason to (I mean, this is the internet), but let me put it this way--I consider you a friend. <--I trust my friendship toward you-- because in you, I don't see a bed of nails, I see someone who is matter-of-fact honest, sincere in their posts and replies, down-to-earth, and someone who doesn't say things just for "image" sake, but calls it as they see it, as well as many other reasons. Maybe, someday, you'll trust your friendship toward others and see that not all people are looking for a hand to cut a finger from.

gdoane

August 18th, 2009, 10:24 am

Think of everyone you know... are most of them bad people?

Yeah. I own five air compressors because the people I know borrow things and never return them. It's easier to buy a new tool than to get one back from a loan to a "friend".

Look around you in public places; shopping malls; the grocery stores; schools; the movie houses; restaurants; sports venues; churches... are most of those people bad?

Yes, they are. I wouldn't trust a stranger off the street and invite them into my home, would you? People are creepy and not to be trusted. First lesson my Momma taught me is "NEVER TALK TO STRANGERS" and that's good advice for both children and adults.

Think the worst of people and you'll always be right about them. In the rare case that you're wrong, it'll be a pleasant surprise.

The premise that most people are bad is so far from the reality that we see every day it is not even close.

Really? Count the number of cameras on you in any given day. Those cameras aren't on you because you're a trusted fellow. They're in place because you're expected to do some kind of evil which may be used as evidence against you.

Bad people do not follow the rules... that is kind of what makes them bad people. 10 % of the people (the good folks) could not control the other 90% of people if they were bad unless the bad people were locked up and the good people kept them under armed observation. No how; no way.

The good people have 90% of the resources. Bad guys have a tendency to be poor because nobody trusts them. They're evil, after all, and have few if any resources as a result.

It's not a matter for sheer numbers, it's a matter of resources in combat. Indians may have outnumbered cowboys, but tomahawks lose to Winchesters 99 times out of a hundred.

The reason the USA has the most resources of any nation on Earth is because we're a good nation and nations with less have less because they're more evil. Evil is inversely proportional to prosperity. Evil people are doomed to poverty as punishment for their evil ways.

However, if the 10% were bad people... yes, they could just as you say, control the other 90% precisely because they are bad people and don't play by the rules. And since they, the bad people, aren't in control - quite, that disproves the hypothesis... thus most people are NOT bad.

They can't control the good people. They're bringing knives to a gunfight. While evil people have the numbers, what they don't have are the resources to win.

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 4:58 pm

Thank you, I aim to please....

... and you rarely disappoint. ;)

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 5:08 pm

:rolleyes:

They are not advertising on British TV, these lying ads are being shown by British NEWS as an example of the lengths that some right wing idealogues in the US will go to to maintain the status quo....

And 90% of Brits are incensed by it........

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/17/free-health-us-style-115875-21602170/

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/mark-austin/2009/08/16/nhs-bashers-make-me-sick-115875-21599510/

Ok... I misunderstood you. But it comes as no surprise that 90% of Brits (a number plucked from the air) would be incensed (a word chosen to exaggerate) by criticism by Americans. After all, 90% of us (a number I made up) in here are incensed (a word as inappropriate as yours) by your criticism of us. It is only natural regardless of the validity (or not) of the criticism.

But I am a bit confused... your links are simply more America bashing; not evidencing outrage of criticism by Americans. :eh:

At least they explain where your misconceptions come from...

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 5:12 pm

What can I say? I don't trust people as far as I can throw them, and I'm inevitably proven right. After I shake someone's hand I count my fingers. When they smile, I look for the knife.

Well then... I am sorry for you. What a miserable existence. :neutral:

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 5:21 pm

Yeah. I own five air compressors because the people I know borrow things and never return them. It's easier to buy a new tool than to get one back from a loan to a "friend".

Yes, they are. I wouldn't trust a stranger off the street and invite them into my home, would you? People are creepy and not to be trusted. First lesson my Momma taught me is "NEVER TALK TO STRANGERS" and that's good advice for both children and adults.

Think the worst of people and you'll always be right about them. In the rare case that you're wrong, it'll be a pleasant surprise.

Really? Count the number of cameras on you in any given day. Those cameras aren't on you because you're a trusted fellow. They're in place because you're expected to do some kind of evil which may be used as evidence against you.

The good people have 90% of the resources. Bad guys have a tendency to be poor because nobody trusts them. They're evil, after all, and have few if any resources as a result.

It's not a matter for sheer numbers, it's a matter of resources in combat. Indians may have outnumbered cowboys, but tomahawks lose to Winchesters 99 times out of a hundred.

The reason the USA has the most resources of any nation on Earth is because we're a good nation and nations with less have less because they're more evil. Evil is inversely proportional to prosperity. Evil people are doomed to poverty as punishment for their evil ways.

They can't control the good people. They're bringing knives to a gunfight. While evil people have the numbers, what they don't have are the resources to win.

Clearly I will never be able to convince you otherwise...

But I still insist that if you were to step back from your pessimistic, jaded viewpoint and actually assess the people around you, both those known to you and strangers, you would observe that they are fundamentally good people. Your existence sounds as miserable as Tommy's... and that is sad. :neutral:

King Cantona

August 18th, 2009, 5:45 pm

Ok... I misunderstood you. But it comes as no surprise that 90% of Brits (a number plucked from the air) would be incensed (a word chosen to exaggerate) by criticism by Americans. After all, 90% of us (a number I made up) in here are incensed (a word as inappropriate as yours) by your criticism of us. It is only natural regardless of the validity (or not) of the criticism.

Actually it WAS plucked out of the air but believe me, the vast majority of people here have nothing against the US but they do have outrage about the right wing telling lies about the NHS to forward their own political agenda...

But I am a bit confused... your links are simply more America bashing; not evidencing outrage of criticism by Americans. :eh:

At least they explain where your misconceptions come from...

You are welcome to criticise the NHS, we do ourselves, what we don't take kindly to however is people outright LYING about the NHS, there was no America bashing but there was plenty of outrage at the liars who want things to remain the same..

gdoane

August 18th, 2009, 6:00 pm

Clearly I will never be able to convince you otherwise...

But I still insist that if you were to step back from your pessimistic, jaded viewpoint and actually assess the people around you, both those known to you and strangers, you would observe that they are fundamentally good people. Your existence sounds as miserable as Tommy's... and that is sad. :neutral:

According to the Department of Justice, there were over 6 Million violent crimes committed in the USA in 2006.

The way to avoid joining those poor 2% of American victims who are attacked every year is to be very, very careful and conservative about whom you trust, what kind of crowd you hang with and to keep your guard up and your wits about you.

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 6:31 pm

Actually it WAS plucked out of the air but believe me, the vast majority of people here have nothing against the US but they do have outrage about the right wing telling lies about the NHS to forward their own political agenda...
They are outraged at what the British Press is telling them that so-called right-wingers are saying about the NHS not what conservatives in general are saying. My advice... keep your pants on and mind your own sorry health system rather than bitch about ours or about us.

You are welcome to criticise the NHS, we do ourselves, what we don't take kindly to however is people outright LYING about the NHS, there was no America bashing but there was plenty of outrage at the liars who want things to remain the same..

Just as we do not take it kindly when you bash America with baseless accusations. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. The actions of a couple of wackos is no excuse for labeling an entire people as liars.

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 6:42 pm

According to the Department of Justice, there were over 6 Million violent crimes committed in the USA in 2006.

The way to avoid joining those poor 2% of American victims who are attacked every year is to be very, very careful and conservative about whom you trust, what kind of crowd you hang with and to keep your guard up and your wits about you.

The premise of the OP was whether people basically good or not. 2% does not constitute "the people." If the majority of people were bad you could never leave your house and property unprotected and you could not safely walk down the street or do any business. The fact remains that you can leave your house and you don't have to constantly fight off bad guys to go about your business. Keeping your guard up... for the small minority of bad guys... is prudent, but it in no way means that most people are bad. It is not any different than buying fire insurance in the remote chance that your house burns.

BTW... a very large number of those 6 million violent crimes were conducted against other criminals. Criminal on criminal crime is the predominant category of crime in this country.

King Cantona

August 18th, 2009, 8:26 pm

They are outraged at what the British Press is telling them that so-called right-wingers are saying about the NHS not what conservatives in general are saying. My advice... keep your pants on and mind your own sorry health system rather than bitch about ours or about us.

Yes they are outraged at the LIARS who are attacking the NHS, when I visit the US I always visit the hospital and talk to the physiotherapists so don't accuse me of bitching about Americans or the American health system but I reserve the right to bitch about worthless liars...

Just as we do not take it kindly when you bash America with baseless accusations. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. The actions of a couple of wackos is no excuse for labeling an entire people as liars.

Yet again I have to say I am accusing the liars of being liars not the American people, I have many American friends and none of them are liars...

But if that's the way the right wing try to sway opinion then you should be ashamed.....

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 8:29 pm

Yes they are outraged at the LIARS who are attacking the NHS, when I visit the US I always visit the hospital and talk to the physiotherapists so don't accuse me of bitching about Americans or the American health system but I reserve the right to bitch about worthless liars...

Yet again I have to say I am accusing the liars of being liars not the American people, I have many American friends and none of them are liars...

But if that's the way the right wing try to sway opinion then you should be ashamed.....

King... when you are in a hole over your head... quit digging. :neutral:

King Cantona

August 18th, 2009, 9:07 pm

King... when you are in a hole over your head... quit digging. :neutral:

Is that an admission that you are ashamed?.....

gdoane

August 18th, 2009, 10:08 pm

The premise of the OP was whether people basically good or not. 2% does not constitute "the people."

That's 2% who are VERY bad. There are different levels of bad, after all.

If the majority of people were bad you could never leave your house and property unprotected and you could not safely walk down the street or do any business.

I don't leave my house or property unprotected. My house has a 24/7 monitored burglar alarm system and my truck is also alarmed and kept locked at all times, even while I'm driving it.

I've already established that there are 6 million violent criminals. Now how about the 12 million illegal aliens? They're evil too, trespassing and breaking the law willfully and with malice and aforethought.

That's 18 Million evil people, and there's more....

One in six Americans (that's about 50 Million) have criminal records.

So now we're up to 68 Million evil people in the USA, and since there are only 240 Million adults in the USA (20% of the USA population is age 15 or younger) that means roughly 1 in 3 adults in America are evil with a record to prove it.

Of course, not all evil is detected. More than half of all evil acts go unsolved and unpunished, which means that really and truly, more than two out of three American adults are evil.

The fact remains that you can leave your house and you don't have to constantly fight off bad guys to go about your business. Keeping your guard up... for the small minority of bad guys... is prudent, but it in no way means that most people are bad. It is not any different than buying fire insurance in the remote chance that your house burns.It's not a remote chance. The house across the street from me burned, and my immediate neighboring house to the west of me also burned. If the chances were remote, we wouldn't need fire departments. Here in Phoenix, when a house goes up, it's a tinderbox. The wood is dry and the weather is hot, and while the fire department has a response time of under 20 minutes, the house is a total loss by the time 10 minutes go by.

BTW... a very large number of those 6 million violent crimes were conducted against other criminals. Criminal on criminal crime is the predominant category of crime in this country.Of course the evil people tend to prey on other evil people. There's such a shortage of good people that they really have no other choice.

Samm

August 18th, 2009, 10:37 pm

That's 2% who are VERY bad. There are different levels of bad, after all.

<snip>

Where do you fall on that scale? :razz:

gdoane

August 18th, 2009, 11:06 pm

Where do you fall on that scale? :razz:

I dunno, probably about halfway if I had to venture a guess.

Legend has it that there are seven deadly sins, so how many of those do I violate and how many do you violate?

"Lust"
"Gluttony"
"Greed"
"Sloth"
"Wrath"
"Envy"
"Pride"

Let's review:

Lust: I've been guilty of this. Heck, I've got a DVD boxed set of the old "Wonder Woman" because quite frankly, I wouldn't mind if Lynda Carter tied me up with a golden rope and made me tell the truth. SIGN ME UP. I'm guilty, Wonder Woman!

Gluttony: I was at a Chinese Buffet yesterday. Used THREE PLATES and I could stand to lose about 30 pounds truth be told. Guilty again.

Greed: I like video games. A lot. In fact, there are literally about 4,000 video games in my house, more than I could ever possibly play and finish in my lifetime and I just bought another video game yesterday because I never have enough. That's greedy and I'm guilty.

Sloth: My housekeeping is somewhere between atrocious and bad. I'm not quite Oscar the Slob from "The Odd Couple" but I'm a far cry from the neatest guy on the planet. Probably a bit guilty of this sin too.

Wrath: I've gotten a lot better with my temper over the years, but I'd be lying through my teeth if I claimed I've never lost my cool. Usually I take it out on video games.

Envy: My parents are retired, and haven't been to work in ten years. I envy that quite a bit, but I'm not in a position where I can do that for probably twenty more years at the daily grind.

Pride: I'm Gene Doane, are you kidding me? Of course I've got pride, I'm the best there is and I don't even have to try to be the best because I just plain am. Guilty again.

I'm guilty at some point or another of every last one of the seven deadly sins and if people would truthfully consider it, they'd probably find themselves guilty of most if not all themselves.

AutoRacer55

August 19th, 2009, 1:21 am

I dunno, probably about halfway if I had to venture a guess.

Legend has it that there are seven deadly sins, so how many of those do I violate and how many do you violate?

"Lust"
"Gluttony"
"Greed"
"Sloth"
"Wrath"
"Envy"
"Pride"

Let's review:

Lust: I've been guilty of this. Heck, I've got a DVD boxed set of the old "Wonder Woman" because quite frankly, I wouldn't mind if Lynda Carter tied me up with a golden rope and made me tell the truth. SIGN ME UP. I'm guilty, Wonder Woman!

Gluttony: I was at a Chinese Buffet yesterday. Used THREE PLATES and I could stand to lose about 30 pounds truth be told. Guilty again.

Greed: I like video games. A lot. In fact, there are literally about 4,000 video games in my house, more than I could ever possibly play and finish in my lifetime and I just bought another video game yesterday because I never have enough. That's greedy and I'm guilty.

Sloth: My housekeeping is somewhere between atrocious and bad. I'm not quite Oscar the Slob from "The Odd Couple" but I'm a far cry from the neatest guy on the planet. Probably a bit guilty of this sin too.

Wrath: I've gotten a lot better with my temper over the years, but I'd be lying through my teeth if I claimed I've never lost my cool. Usually I take it out on video games.

Envy: My parents are retired, and haven't been to work in ten years. I envy that quite a bit, but I'm not in a position where I can do that for probably twenty more years at the daily grind.

Pride: I'm Gene Doane, are you kidding me? Of course I've got pride, I'm the best there is and I don't even have to try to be the best because I just plain am. Guilty again.

I'm guilty at some point or another of every last one of the seven deadly sins and if people would truthfully consider it, they'd probably find themselves guilty of most if not all themselves.

Let's make it more complicated. I want to see how many of these you've had to deal with, and these are all the "combinations" of the 7 deadlies:

Lust + Gluttony = Edible Undies
Lust+Greed = Prostitution
Lust+Sloth = Quickies
Lust+Wrath = Domestic Abuse
Lust+Envy = Adultery
Lust+Pride = Trophy Wife

Gluttony + Greed = Last Donut
Gluttony + Sloth = Saturday
Gluttony + Wrath = Bulimia
Gluttony + Envy = High Metabolism
Gluttony + Pride - Fat Men in Speedos

Greed + Sloth = Get Rich Quick Scams
Greed + Wrath = Muggings
Greed + Envy = Advertising
Greed + Pride = Status Symbols

Sloth + Wrath = Passive Aggression
Sloth + Envy = Welfare
Sloth + Pride = Slackers

Wrath + Envy = Cattiness
Wrath + Pride = Boxing

Envy + Pride = 2nd place

For anyone that asks where I got this, it was on a web of the 7 deadlies.

Oh, as for being the best there is, A.J. Foyt beat you to that long ago. Sorry man :mrgreen:

gdoane

August 19th, 2009, 2:01 am

Let's make it more complicated. I want to see how many of these you've had to deal with, and these are all the "combinations" of the 7 deadlies:

Lust + Gluttony = Edible Undies

Done that. Tasted like a fruit roll-up. Best not to use a fork.

Lust+Greed = Prostitution

If it's greed, then it means I get the money? I can honestly say nobody has ever paid to sleep with me. Damn it.

Lust+Sloth = Quickies

I don't get the sloth part there. Usually quick is neater.

Lust+Wrath = Domestic Abuse

Kind of hard to do that living alone. Does yelling at my gourami count?

Lust+Envy = Adultery

If you're married it's adultery. Single should be minority.

Lust+Pride = Trophy Wife

No trophy wife on what I make. Booby prize is all I could afford.

Gluttony + Greed = Last Donut

Been there, done that. In a US Navy mess hall no less.

Gluttony + Sloth = Saturday

Ordering pizza on a Saturday while soaking in a hot tub count?

Gluttony + Wrath = Bulimia

Never done that. Bulimia makes me sick to my stomach.

Gluttony + Envy = High Metabolism

Never metabolised a high either. I just say no to drugs.

Gluttony + Pride - Fat Men in Speedos

I'm pretty sure I've never done fat men in speedos. I'm straight.

Greed + Sloth = Get Rich Quick Scams

Like a Lottery Ticket? I've been dumb enough to buy one or two.

Greed + Wrath = Muggings

I've never been mugged. Unless you count a form 1040A.

Greed + Envy = Advertising

I've never advertised either.

Greed + Pride = Status Symbols

Guilty. I own a Tommy Hilfiger shirt. However, in my defense, it was a gift. I usually get the Wal*Mart brand Faded Glory.

Sloth + Wrath = Passive Aggression

I gotta call oxymoron on that one.

Sloth + Envy = Welfare

I've never been on welfare and I wish the program would collapse already.

Sloth + Pride = Slackers

I'm not much of a slacker. Not guilty there.

Wrath + Envy = Cattiness

I love cats. They keep Chinese buffets cheap.

Wrath + Pride = Boxing

I've never done boxing. Closest I've come is I got a brown belt in Judo.

Envy + Pride = 2nd place

I did vote for John McCain so I've seen 2nd place.

For anyone that asks where I got this, it was on a web of the 7 deadlies.

Oh, as for being the best there is, A.J. Foyt beat you to that long ago. Sorry man :mrgreen:

I've driven a $60 Million U.S. Navy Guided Missile Fast Frigate up the Mississippi River. I've got A.J. Foyt beat by about $59 Million for driving an expensive vehicle.

AutoRacer55

August 19th, 2009, 4:19 am

gdoane

August 19th, 2009, 9:13 am

Gene, My metaphorical hat is off to you. Quite a few of those made me chuckle.

Although you might beat A.J. for expenses on a vehicle, however, A.J. Foyt does have you beat for fame. He's still the only guy that's won the Indianapolis 500, the Daytona 500, and the 24 Hours of LeMans.

He ain't that famous. You say "A.J." around here and people think you're talking about Apache Junction, a little one-horse town 30 miles east of Phoenix. For talent I'd have to go with Eddie Rickenbacker, champion race driver and WWI ace fighter pilot.

EDIT: Just re-read it. Only a brown belt in Judo?

I ran out of toes to break.

AutoRacer55

August 19th, 2009, 1:46 pm

He ain't that famous. You say "A.J." around here and people think you're talking about Apache Junction, a little one-horse town 30 miles east of Phoenix. For talent I'd have to go with Eddie Rickenbacker, champion race driver and WWI ace fighter pilot.

He did own the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, so I have to give him his due.

I ran out of toes to break.

Good reason.

Samm

August 19th, 2009, 5:05 pm

I dunno, probably about halfway if I had to venture a guess.

Legend has it that there are seven deadly sins, so how many of those do I violate and how many do you violate?

"Lust"
"Gluttony"
"Greed"
"Sloth"
"Wrath"
"Envy"
"Pride"

Let's review:

Lust: I've been guilty of this. Heck, I've got a DVD boxed set of the old "Wonder Woman" because quite frankly, I wouldn't mind if Lynda Carter tied me up with a golden rope and made me tell the truth. SIGN ME UP. I'm guilty, Wonder Woman!

Gluttony: I was at a Chinese Buffet yesterday. Used THREE PLATES and I could stand to lose about 30 pounds truth be told. Guilty again.

Greed: I like video games. A lot. In fact, there are literally about 4,000 video games in my house, more than I could ever possibly play and finish in my lifetime and I just bought another video game yesterday because I never have enough. That's greedy and I'm guilty.

Sloth: My housekeeping is somewhere between atrocious and bad. I'm not quite Oscar the Slob from "The Odd Couple" but I'm a far cry from the neatest guy on the planet. Probably a bit guilty of this sin too.

Wrath: I've gotten a lot better with my temper over the years, but I'd be lying through my teeth if I claimed I've never lost my cool. Usually I take it out on video games.

Envy: My parents are retired, and haven't been to work in ten years. I envy that quite a bit, but I'm not in a position where I can do that for probably twenty more years at the daily grind.

Pride: I'm Gene Doane, are you kidding me? Of course I've got pride, I'm the best there is and I don't even have to try to be the best because I just plain am. Guilty again.

I'm guilty at some point or another of every last one of the seven deadly sins and if people would truthfully consider it, they'd probably find themselves guilty of most if not all themselves.

Well that explains why you and I disagree on this topic Gene... I don't see any of those confessions as making you "bad." Other than being a sour-puss pessimist, I think you are a pretty good guy. ;)