Gummint Motors (GM) Volt to get a 230mpg rating!

[HawkeyeLonewolf]

The newly owned Gummint Motors says the new version of Chevy Volt will be certified at 230mpg...

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108

Of course for the purposes of this study, a "mile" has been reduced to 528 feet for fairness.

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things? Electricity isn't free either and exchanging the seen (car emissions) for the unseen (coal plants) doesn't help the liberal climate change fairy tale one bit.

And I hear that when the batteries go, they go. Requiring a huge replacement cost.

[DRS]

Where do you guys get coal from?

[RickRhetoric]

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things?


Bull crap!!! No fossil fuels will needed to run the electric Volt. Obama is going to issue a free kite, some string and a key to all Volt buyers.

[HawkeyeLonewolf]

Bull crap!!! No fossil fuels will needed to run the electric Volt. Obama is going to issue a free kite, some string and a key to all Volt buyers.

Or a Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future :)

[ddye]

Wow, people will try to crap on anything at all here. I imagine that of cancer was cured you'd have people here bitching about job losses in cancer clinics.

Doug

[mkh]

The Volt has been awful from the beginning. Other car companies will have cheaper and probably finer tuned electric cars out before Chevy ever get's this thing on the road. I like the idea of electric cars, but they need to be cost effective for mass interest. It'll be a bust and another reason american car industry sucks.

[Vaard]

isnt GM one of hannity's sponsors?

[MrShotShot]

Wow, people will try to crap on anything at all here. I imagine that of cancer was cured you'd have people here bitching about job losses in cancer clinics.

Doug

So you support ignorantly ignoring the facts?

[LibertyinAtl]

wow, people will try to crap on anything at all here. I imagine that of cancer was cured you'd have people here bitching about job losses in cancer clinics.

Doug

lol...

[LibertyinAtl]

isnt GM one of hannity's sponsors?
I have often wondered about that myself...
Seems to me he must be under contract with them...

[Wake-Up]

So what's the problem with this?

Its American technology and innovation. No one is forcing you to buy one. Some people will for the mileage, some for the technology, some for the environment (actual or perceived).

The examples in the article show a worst case of 62 mpg. Some will get to run primarily on electric at 0.40 per charge.

If we don't encourage more drilling, nuclear, coal, and other alternate sources along with new technologies to improve the use of fuels where will we be?

Why not do away with electric and gas ranges and cook your food in pits. While you're at it, start those fires with a flint. Dump your fridge too and go back to root cellars or ice boxes.

Come on people, why are you afraid of moving forward? Yes the govt AND private industry is subsidizing but would you really rather move back in time and not have any alternatives?

America has always been the leader in innovation and technology. We've lost our manufacturing edge so why do you want to trample what we still do best?

[dantes]

Would the Volt only run on coal produced electricity? What if I try and sneak wind produced electricity into the battery?

[HawkeyeLonewolf]

So what's the problem with this?

Its American technology and innovation. No one is forcing you to buy one. Some people will for the mileage, some for the technology, some for the environment (actual or perceived).

The examples in the article show a worst case of 62 mpg. Some will get to run primarily on electric at 0.40 per charge.

If we don't encourage more drilling, nuclear, coal, and other alternate sources along with new technologies to improve the use of fuels where will we be?

Why not do away with electric and gas ranges and cook your food in pits. While you're at it, start those fires with a flint. Dump your fridge too and go back to root cellars or ice boxes.

Come on people, why are you afraid of moving forward? Yes the govt AND private industry is subsidizing but would you really rather move back in time and not have any alternatives?

America has always been the leader in innovation and technology. We've lost our manufacturing edge so why do you want to trample what we still do best?

You totally missed the point.

Electric cars are heralded as the salvation of our transportation industry and savior of the earth's ozone...

But overall they are really no better than the status quo.

[HawkeyeLonewolf]

Would the Volt only run on coal produced electricity? What if I try and sneak wind produced electricity into the battery?

Wind produced electricity costs even more to produce than coal. Wind farms are a failure except as a feel good program.

[ddye]

So what's the problem with this?

Its American technology and innovation. No one is forcing you to buy one. Some people will for the mileage, some for the technology, some for the environment (actual or perceived).

The examples in the article show a worst case of 62 mpg. Some will get to run primarily on electric at 0.40 per charge.

If we don't encourage more drilling, nuclear, coal, and other alternate sources along with new technologies to improve the use of fuels where will we be?

Why not do away with electric and gas ranges and cook your food in pits. While you're at it, start those fires with a flint. Dump your fridge too and go back to root cellars or ice boxes.

Come on people, why are you afraid of moving forward? Yes the govt AND private industry is subsidizing but would you really rather move back in time and not have any alternatives?

America has always been the leader in innovation and technology. We've lost our manufacturing edge so why do you want to trample what we still do best?
The thing is that nothing will ever change, and everything will remain like it is now forever.

We'll always have plenty of mid east oil, and gas will never go above $3 a gallon.

SUVs will always be great, and every single idea ever thought up by any Democrat is evil and stupid, and is part of an evil scheme to turn America over to communists.

Oh, and some day Ronald Reagan (cue inspirational music!) will return to lead us to the promised land.

Have you learned NOTHING AT ALL HERE?

Doug

[badkarma]

You totally missed the point.

Electric cars are heralded as the salvation of our transportation industry and savior of the earth's ozone...

But overall they are really no better than the status quo.
Has anyone done the math? Is getting 230 MPG + using the electric better than getting a flat 20 or 25 MPG when it comes to fossil fuels?

[dantes]

Wind produced electricity costs even more to produce than coal. Wind farms are a failure except as a feel good program.

So if I pay more for wind produced electricity to power a Volt, then there is no CO2 produced. Sounds pretty good to me.

[Wake-Up]

Would the Volt only run on coal produced electricity? What if I try and sneak wind produced electricity into the battery?

Instead if it going "cough, cough, cough" it goes Whooooooosh.

Folks can tear down the idea all they want but I drive a Camary Hybrid and while I dont pile on the miles since I live very close to work I fill my tank every 6-7 weeks. I can't even tell you the current price of gas since I last filled up the weekend of July 4th.

An electric car would be great for me at most I drive 10 miles a day.

We do have a regular car for long trips but when we run around town, we take the Hybrid.

[Mohawk5]

Sorry I'd rather walk!!!

[Apatriot]

Where do you guys get coal from?

46% of electricity in the U.S. comes from coal-fired plants. Another 20% comes from natural gas fired plants. Electric cars don't get us away from fossil fuels.

[avergbear]

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll67/avergbear/SardineCan-2.gif

[HawkeyeLonewolf]

So if I pay more for wind produced electricity to power a Volt, then there is no CO2 produced. Sounds pretty good to me.

For you spending a fortune to battle a fairy tale is worth it -- the majority will just take what comes into their house, increasing demand, increasing coal fire production, increading CO2 emissions.

[sironin]

46% of electricity in the U.S. comes from coal-fired plants. Another 20% comes from natural gas fired plants. Electric cars don't get us away from fossil fuels.

They're not really supposed to. They're supposed to take the question of power generation out of the vehicle. It is grossly inefficient to have millions of poorly maintained power generation facilities bumping around on the road every day.

[avergbear]

So if I pay more for wind produced electricity to power a Volt, then there is no CO2 produced. Sounds pretty good to me.

You’re not raising a family or trying to put kids through college, are you?

Most likely, someone is paying to do that for you.

[Apatriot]

Has anyone done the math? Is getting 230 MPG + using the electric better than getting a flat 20 or 25 MPG when it comes to fossil fuels?


Well, it said that 40 miles could be driven on about 40 cents worth of electricity. That's a penny per mile, and costwise, that's equivalent to about 250 MPG (at $2.50 per gallon gas). The real question is not the mpg equivalent, but the lifetime cost per mile, compared to a similar conventional car. Lifetime costs will include maintenance and batteries.

[LibertyinAtl]

So what's the problem with this?

Its American technology and innovation. No one is forcing you to buy one. Some people will for the mileage, some for the technology, some for the environment (actual or perceived).

The examples in the article show a worst case of 62 mpg. Some will get to run primarily on electric at 0.40 per charge.

If we don't encourage more drilling, nuclear, coal, and other alternate sources along with new technologies to improve the use of fuels where will we be?

Why not do away with electric and gas ranges and cook your food in pits. While you're at it, start those fires with a flint. Dump your fridge too and go back to root cellars or ice boxes.

Come on people, why are you afraid of moving forward? Yes the govt AND private industry is subsidizing but would you really rather move back in time and not have any alternatives?

America has always been the leader in innovation and technology. We've lost our manufacturing edge so why do you want to trample what we still do best?
In theory electric cars are a great idea....
However , I'm a firm believer that market conditions should control there existence not the federal government. If GM can honestly make money selling this more power to them. If I have to subsidize the company to produce a product I'm against it. Plus our electric grid would die a horrible death if every car in the US was electric. So to me it's like putting the car before the windmill or putting the car before the thousands of acreage of solar panels...

[LibertyinAtl]

They're not really supposed to. They're supposed to take the question of power generation out of the vehicle. It is grossly inefficient to have millions of poorly maintained power generation facilities bumping around on the road every day. It is much better to have millions of poorly maintained batteries leaking toxins into the water table...

[Apatriot]

So if I pay more for wind produced electricity to power a Volt, then there is no CO2 produced. Sounds pretty good to me.

If you believe in that sort of sleight of hand.

[Apatriot]

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll67/avergbear/SardineCan-2.gif

This is a silly picture. This thread is not about the gas-powered Smart Car, but about the Chevy Volt, which is a sporty-looking four-door sedan.

[HawkeyeLonewolf]

I think we here would all applaud a cure for cancer.

Unless that "cure" replaced the cancer with Alzheimers for example.

Then, like with electric cars, we'd wisely be skeptical.

[avergbear]

I think we here would all applaud a cure for cancer.

Unless that "cure" replaced the cancer with Alzheimers for example.

Then, like with electric cars, we'd wisely be skeptical.

In this case I think we are trading lung cancer for a brain tumor.

[dantes]

If you believe in that sort of sleight of hand.

One man's slight of hand is another man's science and engineering.
I believe we can move away from fossil fuels for electricity if we want.

[HawkeyeLonewolf]

one man's slight of hand is another man's science and engineering.
I believe we can move away from fossil fuels for electricity if we want.

go nukes!

[dantes]

go nukes!

That would certainly be a big part of it.

[sironin]

It is much better to have millions of poorly maintained batteries leaking toxins into the water table...

Batteries don't need nearly as much maintenance as an internal combustion engine. Batteries will not leak without either a manufacturer defect or improper usage by the user. The latter is basically impossible with a modern charging/discharging circuit. Improper internal combustion engine usage is frequent and obvious every time some moron slams their foot on the pedal.

Toyota had a grand total of seven cases of battery leakage in the first generation Prius from 2001 to 2003. You're more likely to get into an accident than have a battery leak in the normal course of usage of a vehicle with a lot of batteries in it.

[Blemonds]

The newly owned Gummint Motors says the new version of Chevy Volt will be certified at 230mpg...

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108

Of course for the purposes of this study, a "mile" has been reduced to 528 feet for fairness.

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things? Electricity isn't free either and exchanging the seen (car emissions) for the unseen (coal plants) doesn't help the liberal climate change fairy tale one bit.

And I hear that when the batteries go, they go. Requiring a huge replacement cost.
Of course it has to be charged up every forty miles to get that kind of mileage

[Thanatos144]

Climate change is all about pushing forward the progressive ideals and to change America to something that is closer to Europe.

[avergbear]

One man's slight of hand is another man's science and engineering.
I believe we can move away from fossil fuels for electricity if we want.

Go ahead, knock yourself out.

Just don’t force it down my throat.

If it works and is cheaper, the market will make the adjustment and people will buy it in droves.

Just keep the government out of it.

[Trip]

So if I pay more for wind produced electricity to power a Volt, then there is no CO2 produced. Sounds pretty good to me.

Except CO2 is not a pollutant, is beneficial to farming and forestry, and really is not any sort of contributor to even imagined global warming, i mean "Climate Change".

[ChicoLibertarian]

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things? Electricity isn't free either and exchanging the seen (car emissions) for the unseen (coal plants) doesn't help the liberal climate change fairy tale one bit.

Generating power at a power plant is far more efficient than generating it via an internal combustion engine. It's a fact.

[ChicoLibertarian]

Of course it has to be charged up every forty miles to get that kind of mileage

And for someone like me, that drives fewer than 40 miles per day, it's a great solution.

[ChicoLibertarian]

go nukes!

Absolutely! We need nuclear power now!

[ChicoLibertarian]

You’re not raising a family or trying to put kids through college, are you?

Most likely, someone is paying to do that for you.

Some people have more discretionary income, and if they choose to buy and electric car and subsidize wind power generation, what business is it of yours? If you don't want to buy an electric car, don't!

[Thanatos144]

I wonder if this car id like that energy efficient light bulb. You no more dangerous to the environment then the predecessor.

[Tigerdrafted]

Well, it said that 40 miles could be driven on about 40 cents worth of electricity. That's a penny per mile, and costwise, that's equivalent to about 250 MPG (at $2.50 per gallon gas). The real question is not the mpg equivalent, but the lifetime cost per mile, compared to a similar conventional car. Lifetime costs will include maintenance and batteries.

The 250 mpg figure is based on some EPA test standard that is under revision. Sure if you only drive 40 miles and charge, you won't use the gasoline engine on board but if you drive long distances, then you will and the mpg will be in line with what you can expect from the same size car weight and power etc. I'm guessing 40 mpg.

Not to say this isn't a good thing. We have to start somewhere and I'm sure they will test this thing. My money is still on the Toyota.

We do need more electric power regardless and nuclear is the only way to go green on that. Nuclear waste is not even a problem. Even though Obama cancelled Yucca Mountain, they all know that they are going to put it there. Just not while the Senator from Nevada, Harry Reid is in office because they know we can store it on site for the next 200 years. We have time for that.

Try and imagine 3500 megawatts of thermal power lasting for 18 months and only having to replace 40% of the fuel to go for another 18 months. The stored footprint of that spent fuel is no larger than your coffee table. Hell we can store that on site for many years. Not even to mention recycling the fuel.

[Camp]

If we were building more nuclear power plants I could see much more of a benefit to this.

As it is now it is like piddling into lake Erie.

It would make more impact to get bulk goods onto rail systems and off the highways. Also better to find alternatives to petroleum based plastics.


Carry on...

[Tigerdrafted]

If we were building more nuclear power plants I could see much more of a benefit to this.

As it is now it is like piddling into lake Erie.

It would make more impact to get bulk goods onto rail systems and off the highways. Also better to find alternatives to petroleum based plastics.


Carry on...

I think Obama is going to waste 4 years hoping on the alternatives from solar, wind and smart grid before he is convinced that nuclear is the only viable green option. If he were wise he would understand that talk is expensive considering we have been poring money into these alternatives for many years. Why should he expect anything new to develop so quickly? Possibly because he is the typical liberal conspiracist that believes someone was holding back the technology.

He should take a lesson from China which right now has 12 nuclear plants under construction. 4 of them by american firms.

[Trip]

Generating power at a power plant is far more efficient than generating it via an internal combustion engine. It's a fact.


Any idea what the resistance is for transfering power down power lines? Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2%. Then there's the loss of energy transferring the power from a the power line to the battery

These are by no means at unity.


And there's still the cost of generating the energy, typically coal.

[Dim Reefer]

The newly owned Gummint Motors says the new version of Chevy Volt will be certified at 230mpg...

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108

Of course for the purposes of this study, a "mile" has been reduced to 528 feet for fairness.

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things? Electricity isn't free either and exchanging the seen (car emissions) for the unseen (coal plants) doesn't help the liberal climate change fairy tale one bit.

And I hear that when the batteries go, they go. Requiring a huge replacement cost.

I bet the fuel (electricity) cost will be the same to the consumer as it is now with gasoline.

[Chewbacca]

(Hi Guys, I'm new so forgive any forum faux pas I may commit. )

The posted article states that the 230 mpg rating is based on some new metric developed by the EPA, but given the information in the article regarding the Volts energy usage per 100 miles it shouldn't be too hard to come up with simple estimate for what the equivalent mpg should be.


a kilowatt hour = 3413 btu's of energy
a gallon of gasoline = about 125,000 btu's
The article states that the Volt uses 25 kilowatt hours / 100 miles

(25 kWh/100 miles)*(3413 btu/kWh) = 85325 btu / 100 miles

(85325 btu / 100 miles)*(1 gallon of gas / 125,000 btu) = .6826 gallons/100miles

inverting .6826 gallons / 100 miles gives us about 146.5 mpg.

146.5 is nothing to sneeze at, though it is interesting that it is significantly lower than the 230 that is being publicized.

[ogibillm]

(Hi Guys, I'm new so forgive any forum faux pas I may commit. )

The posted article states that the 230 mpg rating is based on some new metric developed by the EPA, but given the information in the article regarding the Volts energy usage per 100 miles it shouldn't be too hard to come up with simple estimate for what the equivalent mpg should be.


a kilowatt hour = 3413 btu's of energy
a gallon of gasoline = about 125,000 btu's
The article states that the Volt uses 25 kilowatt hours / 100 miles

(25 kWh/100 miles)*(3413 btu/kWh) = 85325 btu / 100 miles

(85325 btu / 100 miles)*(1 gallon of gas / 125,000 btu) = .6826 gallons/100miles

inverting .6826 gallons / 100 miles gives us about 146.5 mpg.

146.5 is nothing to sneeze at, though it is interesting that it is significantly lower than the 230 that is being publicized.

good bit of math there, but just throwing this out there... aren't you assuming 100% efficiency in your conversion, and aren't gasoline engines significantly less efficient than an electric motor?

[dantes]

good bit of math there, but just throwing this out there... aren't you assuming 100% efficiency in your conversion, and aren't gasoline engines significantly less efficient than an electric motor?

I believe gasoline engines are around 20% efficient, giving the total MPG around 30, which is exactly what you'd expect for a car this size.

[LibertyinAtl]

Batteries don't need nearly as much maintenance as an internal combustion engine. Batteries will not leak without either a manufacturer defect or improper usage by the user. The latter is basically impossible with a modern charging/discharging circuit. Improper internal combustion engine usage is frequent and obvious every time some moron slams their foot on the pedal.

Toyota had a grand total of seven cases of battery leakage in the first generation Prius from 2001 to 2003. You're more likely to get into an accident than have a battery leak in the normal course of usage of a vehicle with a lot of batteries in it.
No doubt batteries have come a long way but you have to look at the shear magnitude of what your talking about. The general public will screw it up. They will bypass the circuitry to fix it by themselves...There will be fires...And you speak of accidents...What happens when these batteries in millions of cars start crashing onto each other damaging the circuitry and the batteries themselves...How do we dispose of them. Are we going to need government regulation on disposal. Perhaps another Czar...
Yes a Battery Czar...
I'm all for electric cars in some circumstances...We are not ready and will not be ready any time soon to support millions of electric cars with millions of batteries expiring...

[VCaddy05]

bull crap!!! No fossil fuels will needed to run the electric volt. Obama is going to issue a free kite, some string and a key to all volt buyers.


lol

[ogibillm]

No doubt batteries have come a long way but you have to look at the shear magnitude of what your talking about. The general public will screw it up. They will bypass the circuitry to fix it by themselves...There will be fires...And you speak of accidents...What happens when these batteries in millions of cars start crashing onto each other damaging the circuitry and the batteries themselves...How do we dispose of them. Are we going to need government regulation on disposal. Perhaps another Czar...
Yes a Battery Czar...
I'm all for electric cars in some circumstances...We are not ready and will not be ready any time soon to support millions of electric cars with millions of batteries expiring...

have you ever given thought to the number of laptop, cell phone, and radio batteries that are disposed of - properly - each year? granted we've got a long way to go on that front - mostly it's just way to easy to toss them in with the regular garbage - but it's not impossible for us to recycle them. it happens all the time.

and yep, people will screw things up. of course, that happens now. i know a guy who was using an acetylene torch on the gas tank on his car in high school. only after he'd finished did he consider that maybe he should have emptied it first.

people are dumb.

[dantes]

No doubt batteries have come a long way but you have to look at the shear magnitude of what your talking about. The general public will screw it up. They will bypass the circuitry to fix it by themselves...There will be fires...And you speak of accidents...What happens when these batteries in millions of cars start crashing onto each other damaging the circuitry and the batteries themselves...How do we dispose of them. Are we going to need government regulation on disposal. Perhaps another Czar...
Yes a Battery Czar...
I'm all for electric cars in some circumstances...We are not ready and will not be ready any time soon to support millions of electric cars with millions of batteries expiring...

There are plenty of programs in place that recycle batteries. I recycled a laptop a few months ago, everything gets taken care of properly.

[LibertyinAtl]

There are plenty of programs in place that recycle batteries. I recycled a laptop a few months ago, everything gets taken care of properly.
We are not talking the equivalent of 2 double A batteries here...
At 10 per car and millions of cars can you imagine what the backyard of my hillbilly neighbors will look like?

[VCaddy05]

Its a great idea imo, its not for everyone but is a great way to save money driving one of those cars. I dont know how it will play out for GM, usually the first movers into a field are not the profitable ones. Someone else will probably take that idea and make it much cheaper and more will buy into it. The concept is great because you can work off either power source, to maximize your efficency. I wouldnt mind havin one for my day to day BS. Reliability and longevity of the batteries will be a question GM will have to face though. Replacing those batteries will be a **** ton of money im sure!

[ogibillm]

We are not talking the equivalent of 2 double A batteries here...
At 10 per car and millions of cars can you imagine what the backyard of my hillbilly neighbors will look like?

there will be good money in the recycling of those batteries. someone will step up.

[dantes]

We are not talking the equivalent of 2 double A batteries here...
At 10 per car and millions of cars can you imagine what the backyard of my hillbilly neighbors will look like?

I don't think the industry is in place to recycle the batteries now, but that the procedures for doing so exist. As battery powered cars like the Volt scale up, these industries would too.

[ChicoLibertarian]

Are we going to need government regulation on disposal.

We already have government regulation of battery disposal. Our local landfill does not take batteries, instead you have to take them to a special (and fee-free) disposal site that also handles household chemicals and paint.

[sironin]

No doubt batteries have come a long way but you have to look at the shear magnitude of what your talking about. The general public will screw it up. They will bypass the circuitry to fix it by themselves...There will be fires...And you speak of accidents...What happens when these batteries in millions of cars start crashing onto each other damaging the circuitry and the batteries themselves...How do we dispose of them. Are we going to need government regulation on disposal. Perhaps another Czar...
Yes a Battery Czar...
I'm all for electric cars in some circumstances...We are not ready and will not be ready any time soon to support millions of electric cars with millions of batteries expiring...

The batteries are completely recyclable, so disposal isn't an issue. One cannot generally mess with a high voltage battery charging system without being severely shocked unless one already knows what one is doing, so that problem solves itself (much like the danger of working inside a gas tank with matches).

Holding back the technology because people are stupid is a horrible idea. People are already stupid and causing more damage with internal combustion engines than they can cause with battery powered vehicles.

[VCaddy05]

No doubt batteries have come a long way but you have to look at the shear magnitude of what your talking about. The general public will screw it up. They will bypass the circuitry to fix it by themselves...There will be fires...And you speak of accidents...What happens when these batteries in millions of cars start crashing onto each other damaging the circuitry and the batteries themselves...How do we dispose of them. Are we going to need government regulation on disposal. Perhaps another Czar...
Yes a Battery Czar...
I'm all for electric cars in some circumstances...We are not ready and will not be ready any time soon to support millions of electric cars with millions of batteries expiring...

that is another issue that we will see how it pans out, electrical issues will be very expensive to fix and can be very damaging to the Vehicle. I used to work on electric boat engines, and those things under heavy use would burn up, catch fire, and have all kinds of wacky issues with them. However, all in good time things will improve, and hopefully GM will have tested this thing to the max and work out issues.

We will need alot more electric power generation for sure to sustain the growing demand for electric vehicles.

[ogibillm]

Its a great idea imo, its not for everyone but is a great way to save money driving one of those cars. I dont know how it will play out for GM, usually the first movers into a field are not the profitable ones. Someone else will probably take that idea and make it much cheaper and more will buy into it. The concept is great because you can work off either power source, to maximize your efficency. I wouldnt mind havin one for my day to day BS. Reliability and longevity of the batteries will be a question GM will have to face though. Replacing those batteries will be a **** ton of money im sure!

you don't really work off of either power source. the volt is not a hyrid. it's an all electric drive vehicle with a gasoline generator.

and yes, battery replacement will be expensive. but transmission replacement is expensive. so is engine block replacement. so is any other number of parts on a conventional vehicle.

the good news about the batteries though is that that technology will only get better and cheaper.

[VCaddy05]

The batteries are completely recyclable, so disposal isn't an issue. One cannot generally mess with a high voltage battery charging system without being severely shocked unless one already knows what one is doing, so that problem solves itself (much like the danger of working inside a gas tank with matches).

People are already stupid and causing more damage with internal combustion engines than they can cause with battery powered vehicles.

I dont really see how thats true, except the part about people already being stupid!! LOL

[Chewbacca]

good bit of math there, but just throwing this out there... aren't you assuming 100% efficiency in your conversion, and aren't gasoline engines significantly less efficient than an electric motor?

Oh I'm definitely assuming 100% efficiency in my estimate. I just rustled up some conversion tables and went to town without much regard for the complexity of the situation. Understanding that no plant is able to convert fuel to energy with 100% efficiency its probably safe to say that, in regards to my estimate, the mpg should be lowered.

The discrepancy between the simple estimate and the EPA metric probably stems from the fact that a variety of fuel sources are used to generate electricity in the grid and their relative impacts on the environment are different. This would require a more complex understanding of "miles per gallon".

[LibertyinAtl]

I don't think the industry is in place to recycle the batteries now, but that the procedures for doing so exist. As battery powered cars like the Volt scale up, these industries would too. So the free market is good enough to take care of the battery problem but not good enough to bring a successful electric car to the US?
See that's my problem...If the free market (no government subsidies or ownership) would do this because the people of the US want it then by all means let it roll...
However with government now subsidizing GM and its Anti-Carbon stance on the weather, they are putting the cart before the horse...Period

[ChicoLibertarian]

I don't think the industry is in place to recycle the batteries now, but that the procedures for doing so exist. As battery powered cars like the Volt scale up, these industries would too.

Prius batteries are recycled, and in some cases they are re-used.

"PG&E in California is experimenting with using used batteries to store and release electricity for use during peak output times and when energy from green sources is unavailable. If electrical utility companies start to buy up used but still useful batteries that could take out some of the sting of replacement costs and reduce pressure on car makers to create electric vehicles with batteries that last the life of the car. If the battery only has to have a life in the vehicle of 50,000 rather than 100,000 miles and the replacement cost is reduced by being able to trade in the old battery, the segment could potentially grow much faster."

[VCaddy05]

you don't really work off of either power source. the volt is not a hyrid. it's an all electric drive vehicle with a gasoline generator.

and yes, battery replacement will be expensive. but transmission replacement is expensive. so is engine block replacement. so is any other number of parts on a conventional vehicle.

the good news about the batteries though is that that technology will only get better and cheaper.

right! what i meant was that you only NEED one or the other to drive down the road. If your battery is charged you can go, if your battery is low, but have gas you can go. THe Gas engine charges you while you drive.

[ChicoLibertarian]

If the free market (no government subsidies or ownership) would do this because the people of the US want it then by all means let it roll...

The Prius continued to sell after the tax credit dwindled, showing that their is a market for these vehicles without government subsidies. And once gasoline goes above $4 a gallon, the demand will only grow.

[ogibillm]

Oh I'm definitely assuming 100% efficiency in my estimate. I just rustled up some conversion tables and went to town without much regard for the complexity of the situation. Understanding that no plant is able to convert fuel to energy with 100% efficiency its probably safe to say that, in regards to my estimate, the mpg should be lowered.

The discrepancy between the simple estimate and the EPA metric probably stems from the fact that a variety of fuel sources are used to generate electricity in the grid and their relative impacts on the environment are different. This would require a more complex understanding of "miles per gallon".

quite the opposite actually. your mileage should go up because of the inefficiency.

anyhow it just goes to show that our epa estimated mpg metric is about to need some serious updating.

[dantes]

So the free market is good enough to take care of the battery problem but not good enough to bring a successful electric car to the US?
See that's my problem...If the free market (no government subsidies or ownership) would do this because the people of the US want it then by all means let it roll...
However with government now subsidizing GM and its Anti-Carbon stance on the weather, they are putting the cart before the horse...Period

GM was working on the Volt long before they were taken over by the government. Also, Japanese automakers are working furiously on similar products. If US automakers build it first, it would be a huge coup.

[Chewbacca]

I believe gasoline engines are around 20% efficient, giving the total MPG around 30, which is exactly what you'd expect for a car this size.

Not exactly. The efficiency of a gasoline (or fossil fuel) power plant is what should be looked at. Wikipedia states that these plants have efficiencies ranging from 40% to 60%.

This would give a "mpg" rating of between 60 to 90 mpg, using the oversimplified conversion.

[Apatriot]

One man's slight of hand is another man's science and engineering.
I believe we can move away from fossil fuels for electricity if we want.

The sleight of hand is believing that you are really doing any good by paying a company to make "wind produced electricity" for you.

According to the DOE, 71.8% of our electrical energy comes from fossil fuel sources (petroleum, natural gas and mainly coal). We have currently dammed the majority of rivers that are suitable for hydroelectric (not to mention that the environmental impact of hydroelectric is pretty major). Nuclear would take a while to ramp up (if you could get permission to build a new nuclear plant). We can move away from fossil fuels, but we will need it for the easily forseeable future.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energy_in_brief/electricity.cfm

[ogibillm]

Not exactly. The efficiency of a gasoline (or fossil fuel) power plant is what should be looked at. Wikipedia states that these plants have efficiencies ranging from 40% to 60%.

This would give a "mpg" rating of between 60 to 90 mpg, using the oversimplified conversion.

except the battery power would then act as many more gallons of fuel.

[ChicoLibertarian]

Any idea what the resistance is for transfering power down power lines? Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2%. Then there's the loss of energy transferring the power from a the power line to the battery

These are by no means at unity.


And there's still the cost of generating the energy, typically coal.

What's the efficiency of an internal combustion engine? About 68% of the energy in a gallon of fuel is lost in the combustion process - mostly in the form of heat.

You're definitely right about coal being the primary energy source, and that's why we need to ride our politicians and utility companies to build nuclear now.

[Apatriot]

Of course it has to be charged up every forty miles to get that kind of mileage

The average commute in the U.S. is 16 miles one way (32 miles two way). For most of us, a volt-type hybrid would be an ok commuter car.

[ogibillm]

The sleight of hand is believing that you are really doing any good by paying a company to make "wind produced electricity" for you.

According to the DOE, 71.8% of our electrical energy comes from fossil fuel sources (petroleum, natural gas and mainly coal). We have currently dammed the majority of rivers that are suitable for hydroelectric (not to mention that the environmental impact of hydroelectric is pretty major). Nuclear would take a while to ramp up (if you could get permission to build a new nuclear plant). We can move away from fossil fuels, but we will need it for the easily forseeable future.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energy_in_brief/electricity.cfm

i've found this 'permission' crap about nuclear energy to be hilarious. they want to expand the callaway nuclear plant in fulton, mo - and have permission to do so, but can't get the funding together.

[Apatriot]

Generating power at a power plant is far more efficient than generating it via an internal combustion engine. It's a fact.

How about if you add in the inefficiencies of transmission, battery charging and battery inefficiency.

[Chewbacca]

quite the opposite actually. your mileage should go up because of the inefficiency.

anyhow it just goes to show that our epa estimated mpg metric is about to need some serious updating.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. If a plant is able to convert gasoline to energy with an efficiency of 80% then 125,000 btu in the gallon of gas become 100,000 (effectively) which in terms of the calculation lower the mpg measure by 20%...

I must be missing something.

[ChicoLibertarian]

Also, Japanese automakers are working furiously on similar products. If US automakers build it first, it would be a huge coup.

I'm beginning to get the feeling that some people are rooting for the US to fail in this endeavor. I wonder why that is?

[LibertyinAtl]

GM was working on the Volt long before they were taken over by the government. Also, Japanese automakers are working furiously on similar products. If US automakers build it first, it would be a huge coup.

My point exactly.... They should not even be in business right now... Hell they could not keep up with Japanese internal combustion autos and now since they have been taken over by the government they are magically going to beat them out of the electric auto world...

Man for All our sakes since we have invested so much money into this failed Company, I hope it works out...

[Mixylplix]

Would the Volt only run on coal produced electricity? What if I try and sneak wind produced electricity into the battery?

Then you'd pay about 20% more per kilowat to charge it up and in the end.... It will cost more per mile.

[WhiteHatBobby]

GM was working on the Volt long before they were taken over by the government. Also, Japanese automakers are working furiously on similar products. If US automakers build it first, it would be a huge coup.

And remember, Obama nationalised by hostile takeover automakers that refused his model of being centred around microcars. GM and Chrysler had truck-based business models, and Ford put down three tiers -- small, mini, and micro. That, in Obama's world, is grounds for an automotive takeover. Ford, Nissan, and Mercedes then took government money to develop electric cars, and in Ford's case, also took government money to shutter truck plants to make Obama Cars.

The Volt was experiemented on the 2007 Malibu chassis in the first place.

[Chewbacca]

except the battery power would then act as many more gallons of fuel.

I'm not familiar with the internal workings of the Volt, but dos it have the same sort of technology that's present in the Prius and other hybrids where energy generated by breaking will be applied to the battery. That would definitely increase the relative "mpg" of the car.

[Mixylplix]

Gang. Being first doesn't get you anywhere if you make a bad product or do a bad job marketing it. Edsel, Betamax??
You can expend a few BILLION on a car that is not worth a crap. No range. No size. Saftey is not job 1 on it. Huge environmental footprint from the batteries. Cost more to run.

These will only appeal to a select elite and tht is fine... They should be priced accordingly.

Problem is that the government is forcing us to waste money on stupid ideas.

[Apatriot]

I wonder if this car id like that energy efficient light bulb. You no more dangerous to the environment then the predecessor.

That's a myth. The amount of mercury put into the atmosphere by a CFL if broken is less than the amount of mercury produced by burning coal to produce the extra electricity used by an incandescent light.

Basically the success and practicality of electric cars is up to one thing--how good (in all respects) the batteries are.

[ogibillm]

I'm sorry, I don't follow. If a plant is able to convert gasoline to energy with an efficiency of 80% then 125,000 btu in the gallon of gas become 100,000 (effectively) which in terms of the calculation lower the mpg measure by 20%...

I must be missing something.

hmm... i guess i'm taking it from the side that the charged batteries would function as many more gallons of gas because of the inefficiency of gasoline engines.

but i can see your point as well... your taking it as the car would run solely on energy produced from its gasoline powered generator - am i right?

[ChicoLibertarian]

How about if you add in the inefficiencies of transmission, battery charging and battery inefficiency.

An internal combustion engine is roughly 30% efficient.

For distributed generation, 7% is lost during transmission. The charging efficiency of a lithium ion battery is 99.9%, according to this site [1]. In efficiency in the battery? Don't know about that. Do you mean loss of charge over time?

Of course there will also be some loss in the electric motor, and I'm not sure what that is either. Still seems that the electric car comes out on top.

[1] http://batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

[ogibillm]

And remember, Obama nationalised by hostile takeover automakers that refused his model of being centred around microcars. GM and Chrysler had truck-based business models, and Ford put down three tiers -- small, mini, and micro. That, in Obama's world, is grounds for an automotive takeover. Ford, Nissan, and Mercedes then took government money to develop electric cars, and in Ford's case, also took government money to shutter truck plants to make Obama Cars.

The Volt was experiemented on the 2007 Malibu chassis in the first place.

that might be the best piece of revisionist history i've ever seen.

[Chewbacca]

hmm... i guess i'm taking it from the side that the charged batteries would function as many more gallons of gas because of the inefficiency of gasoline engines.

but i can see your point as well... your taking it as the car would run solely on energy produced from its gasoline powered generator - am i right?

Yeah thats the way I'm looking at it because it will be easier to do a direct comparison to a gasoline powered vehicle.

The (25 kWH / 100 miles) given by the article just shows the amount of electrical energy expended to move the car. The conversion just shoes that that 25 kWh is equivalent to the energy contained in .68 gallons of gas. The estimate then leaves out how efficient it is to generate energy from gas as well as whether or not the car possesses a way of generating additional energy from the friction of breaking.

I guess this is why the EPA had to create a new metric, because a direct comparison is simply not possible.

[ChicoLibertarian]

These will only appeal to a select elite and tht is fine... They should be priced accordingly.

Problem is that the government is forcing us to waste money on stupid ideas.

That's funny, I didn't realize my neighbor was an "elite" for driving a Prius. Does that make me elite because I live next to him?

As for the government forcing "us" - nah. Many, many people want this technology and they'll pay $35K for it. If I could commute to work for 40 cents per day (40 mile round trip), I'd sign up in a heartbeat.

[Apatriot]

I bet the fuel (electricity) cost will be the same to the consumer as it is now with gasoline.

The article said that 40 miles used 40 cents worth of electricity or 10 Kwh of electricity. My current (80% coal) electricity cost is 6 cents per kwh. (so it would be 60 cents of electricity for 40 miles). *that would be 2 cents per kwh if done using a variable rate plan.

How far do you get with 60 cents of gasoline? In my wife's car (2009 Rabbit), we'd get about 8 miles. With my Ford Explorer, about 5 miles.

now after cap and trade, who knows what the costs will be.

[ogibillm]

The article said that 40 miles used 40 cents worth of electricity or 10 Kwh of electricity. My current (80% coal) electricity cost is 6 cents per kwh. (so it would be 60 cents of electricity for 40 miles). *that would be 2 cents per kwh if done using a variable rate plan.

How far do you get with 60 cents of gasoline? In my wife's car (2009 Rabbit), we'd get about 8 miles. With my Ford Explorer, about 5 miles.

now after cap and trade, who knows what the costs will be.

and let's not forget that a gasoline tweaked to run in narrow parameters and set at it's most efficient rpms is going to be much more efficient than one with wildly fluctuating and broad operating parameters (i.e. your car's engine)

[ShinGouki]

The Volt is an interesting car, but I'm more interested with what GM will do with the platform in the future. There is potential with the Volt's platform to create a unibody 4-door pickup truck, or even a two door AWD sports coupe.

It'd be interesting.

[Thanatos144]

it is all about control. say what they tell you you can say. Eat what they tell you. Drive what they tell you. Die like they tell you. Live like they tell you. Where is the liberty ?

[LibertyinAtl]

it is all about control. say what they tell you you can say. Eat what they tell you. Drive what they tell you. Die like they tell you. Live like they tell you. Where is the liberty ?
That started leaving us with the New Deal....
We gave them and inch and they took Liberty...

[darknessesedge]

The newly owned Gummint Motors says the new version of Chevy Volt will be certified at 230mpg...

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108

Of course for the purposes of this study, a "mile" has been reduced to 528 feet for fairness.

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things? Electricity isn't free either and exchanging the seen (car emissions) for the unseen (coal plants) doesn't help the liberal climate change fairy tale one bit.

And I hear that when the batteries go, they go. Requiring a huge replacement cost.

no worries..we will have a battery stimulus plan and a battery czar

[Trip]

What's the efficiency of an internal combustion engine? About 68% of the energy in a gallon of fuel is lost in the combustion process - mostly in the form of heat.

You're definitely right about coal being the primary energy source, and that's why we need to ride our politicians and utility companies to build nuclear now.
If you are going to measure the effeciency of the internal combustion engine, you have to detract the efficiency from electric vehicles in the cost of producing and transmitting that electricity.

If we filter particulates, and harmful gases, CO2 not being one of them (IMO), Coal is among the most cost effective technologies.

With more than 25 years as a professional geologist, even being a contracted representative of the EPA, I do not think any threat from CO2 has been demonstrated, much less global warming (more recently "Climate Change"), and the enormous environmental benefits of CO2 have been ignored.

[bigtwnvin]

isnt GM one of hannity's sponsors?
Yes and how much will one of these Volts cost?

[Thanatos144]

jesus they take our freedom away with climate control and we thank them for a stupid car that they think they will replace all others with. this stuff is truly scary how fascist this is. And before you think or say it cant happen here why dont you read up on Japanese interment camps.

[Apatriot]

On the good side, if this thing does get a 230 mpg EPA rating, that means that GM can make a lot of low mileage cars.

For example, one 230 mpg Volt will allow GM to make 9 21 mpg corvettes.

[Matthewobamahater]

If a car can get 230 mpg in be economical able to hold its own self up on its own merits.. I don't have any problem with it. But, where do we get the power to charge it??? Need nukes my friends.

Private corps and businesses should do it. NO GOVERNMENT. If we can build nuclear plants to power them and possible build them in SUV and Truck form then I would almost be for them.

We need trucks to move things around.

[arubicus]

Yes and how much will one of these Volts cost?

Last I read it will be around the 30,000 range... Kind of expensive if they want to get mass consumption on these things. They need to get it around 20,000 or under.

[arubicus]

jesus they take our freedom away with climate control and we thank them for a stupid car that they think they will replace all others with. this stuff is truly scary how fascist this is. And before you think or say it cant happen here why dont you read up on Japanese interment camps.

The Volt was being developed long before this administration. From what I understand there have been many struggles with and release dates have been moved time and time again. Last I heard was to be 2010...lets see what happens.

[Matthewobamahater]

They need to find a way to make them in SUV and Truck form. Then the next problem is how do we get the power to power them??? Nuclear is the best way. So at the end of the day why don't the left just come to the middle ground??? It fixes co2 output and gives them their clean cars and it gives us our nuclear, SUV, Trucks.

Why the fight???

[Thanatos144]

These cars wont make a difference. Chances are we will pollute more charging the damn things than we will running the cars we have now. Let me clue you guys in on something if the last 20 years has taught me anything it is who ever controls our energy controls the country. Can you imagine the rationing on electricity this will caue when we are all forced to use these cars?

[arubicus]

They need to find a way to make them in SUV and Truck form. Then the next problem is how do we get the power to power them??? Nuclear is the best way. So at the end of the day why don't the left just come to the middle ground??? It fixes co2 output and gives them their clean cars and it gives us our nuclear, SUV, Trucks.

Why the fight???

Nuclear probably would be the best way as of now.

What worries me is how long do the batteries last and how long before they start loosing their charging abilities. What will be done with them when they are no good (environmental impact). Keep in mind the batteries do charge when in gas mode. I think this is a step to reduce dependency on oil but not a complete conversion. At least we can keep the pollution more outside of our communities for now as most power plants are away from cities.

The Prius is now utilizing solar to help generate power for cab electric components. It would be cool to use the same in the Volt to help lower the drain on batteries plus help recharge when the car is in idle as in parked while at a baseball game etc. Wondering if solar at home dedicated to just cars can generate enough power to charge these things (in some areas - costs aside).

[Creefer]

If you are going to measure the effeciency of the internal combustion engine, you have to detract the efficiency from electric vehicles in the cost of producing and transmitting that electricity.

If we filter particulates, and harmful gases, CO2 not being one of them (IMO), Coal is among the most cost effective technologies.

With more than 25 years as a professional geologist, even being a contracted representative of the EPA, I do not think any threat from CO2 has been demonstrated, much less global warming (more recently "Climate Change"), and the enormous environmental benefits of CO2 have been ignored.

Not really, you just have to compare cost.

After all, do you compare the "efficiency" of shipping oil across the world, refining it, then shipping it to a gas station, and pumping it into your car? Not really.

[sironin]

On the good side, if this thing does get a 230 mpg EPA rating, that means that GM can make a lot of low mileage cars.

For example, one 230 mpg Volt will allow GM to make 9 21 mpg corvettes.

Or they could make an electric corvette and attempt to compete with Tesla.

[Creefer]

You guys are really making negative judgements on the wrong thing based on your own made up scraps of mis-information.

The calculations done on cost per mile show about $0.03. That means you can stop making up statistics about energy efficiency and pollution from electric plants and whatnot. Actually read a little bit and gain some knowledge before you declare it a bust.

Understand they are not using this as the mainstay of production or profit, but as a first. It will cost $40k, which means it won't be a high volume car, and it won't save you money over the life of the vehicle. It's a production test-bed to advance the technology and to gain economies of scale that one day MAY prove out and refine the technology.

It also has nothing to do with Obama, as it's been in development for many years.

[Joeybear23]

I think it's pretty deceptive to call it a 230mpg car when you have to charge it 6times in order to go that far... so 230mpg, but it will take you 2 or 3 days to make that trip.

[nonsocialist]

In this case I think we are trading lung cancer for a brain tumor.

It's actually more like trading IMAGINARY lung cancer (diagnosed and evidenced by a cough) for an actual brain tumor.

[mkh]

I'll wait for this

http://www.teslamotors.com/

[arubicus]

I think it's pretty deceptive to call it a 230mpg car when you have to charge it 6times in order to go that far... so 230mpg, but it will take you 2 or 3 days to make that trip.

All I know it supposed to go 50 on a single charge. Switch to gas and it charges again. Switch back to go another 50. So who knows.

[arubicus]

I'll wait for this

http://www.teslamotors.com/


MMMMMMMMM...that tis a car!

[bigtwnvin]

Last I read it will be around the 30,000 range... Kind of expensive if they want to get mass consumption on these things. They need to get it around 20,000 or under.

I'll spend $30 Grand on a new pick up before I spent that kind of dough on a high maintenance battery in a tin can. Anyway I drive Fords

[Creefer]

I think it's pretty deceptive to call it a 230mpg car when you have to charge it 6times in order to go that far... so 230mpg, but it will take you 2 or 3 days to make that trip.

Again, you are completely making things up without the slightest bit of knowledge. Do you understand the whole part about the gasoline engine that recharges the battery, or would you rather just keep spout ignorant statements?

[Chewbacca]

I think it's pretty deceptive to call it a 230mpg car when you have to charge it 6times in order to go that far... so 230mpg, but it will take you 2 or 3 days to make that trip.

Thats not how the car works. Its not a pure electric vehicle but rather a "plug in hybrid".

A fully charged battery takes the car between 40 and 50 miles. However the car also possess an internal combustion engine that acts as a generator for the battery. The engine is not connected to the wheels mechanically but instead only generates electricity which is either sent directly to the wheels or stored in the battery. The range on the car is 300 miles on a single tank.

The reason the EPA is giving it a 230 mpg rating is because according to the department of transportation a 8 out of 10 people drive less than 40 miles per day, and would thus not have to use the gas powered generator and could survive only using the plug in aspect of the car. In this way it becomes difficult to measure the true MPG of a car which utilizes to different power sources.

[Apatriot]

If a car can get 230 mpg in be economical able to hold its own self up on its own merits.. I don't have any problem with it. But, where do we get the power to charge it??? Need nukes my friends.

Private corps and businesses should do it. NO GOVERNMENT. If we can build nuclear plants to power them and possible build them in SUV and Truck form then I would almost be for them.

We need trucks to move things around.

In terms of the electricity. First, 10 Kwh isn't that much per car per night. That's like a 1000 watt heater being run for 10 hrs. (that's a small space heater). Also, if done right, these would be charged at night, when there is less electrical demand.

[spinach]

The newly owned Gummint Motors says the new version of Chevy Volt will be certified at 230mpg...

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108

Of course for the purposes of this study, a "mile" has been reduced to 528 feet for fairness.

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things? Electricity isn't free either and exchanging the seen (car emissions) for the unseen (coal plants) doesn't help the liberal climate change fairy tale one bit.

And I hear that when the batteries go, they go. Requiring a huge replacement cost.

they are smoking crack.
that number is ridiculous and not possible

the REAL efficiency would have to take into account the range of the vehicle over a LONG period of driving--
continuous. With no "at night recharging" from an outlet.

they say the car gets 62.5 mpg if you drive it 300 miles.
yeah, and I bet that doesn't take into account the cost of the electricity, and as well, is starting off with a 'full charge' in the battery.

What it boils down to, is that it won't be much more efficient than the Prius is- if at all
and who knows how much repairs are gonna cost on this car, compared to a regular vehicle.

[fava]

If overcharged there is a possibility that the battery will explode and it could affect your gas mileage ratings.

[Joeybear23]

Again, you are completely making things up without the slightest bit of knowledge. Do you understand the whole part about the gasoline engine that recharges the battery, or would you rather just keep spout ignorant statements?

I guess they redesigned the Volt.
The original design contained no combustion engine, and had a 40 mile limit between charges.

But, what you fail to address is the fact that the Volt WILL NEVER go 230 miles on a gallon of gas. To create a new standard for the government-subsidized crap car maker just to make it look better is deceptive. This vehicle needs to be tested and rated just like every other vehicle. ive us a real number, not some figure extrapolated out based on one segment of society's driving habits.

[ChicoLibertarian]

and who knows how much repairs are gonna cost on this car, compared to a regular vehicle.

You're right, who knows. Right now there is no reason to assume that repair costs will be any greater than a regular vehicle. No need to spin it otherwise, right?

[Apatriot]

More BS from govt motors. I guess this justifies the govt takeover of GM.This could never have been done without govt intervention. .

Well, it was minimal. Chevy began working on the Volt in 2007.

[JQR]

The Volt has been awful from the beginning. Other car companies will have cheaper and probably finer tuned electric cars out before Chevy ever get's this thing on the road. I like the idea of electric cars, but they need to be cost effective for mass interest. It'll be a bust and another reason american car industry sucks.

The volt is awful? When did you get to drive one? Where is your info that the Volt is so terrible?

[Joeybear23]

Okay, so it is supposed to go 40 miles between charges, and to fully charge it takes 10 KWh. Those are numbers we can use here:

10 KWh will cost you, the homeowner, between $1.20 and $1.60, depending on your electric company.
A gallon of gas today costs around $2.75 (I paid $2.45 yesterday, but I'm talking national averages).

So, even if you run only 40 miles in a day, and charge it at night not using gas in the tank at all. The BEST mileage you can get is between 80-90 miles per gallon-cost equivalent.

This 230mpg figure is pure BS.

[JQR]

Okay, so it is supposed to go 40 miles between charges, and to fully charge it takes 10 KWh. Those are numbers we can use here:

10 KWh will cost you, the homeowner, between $1.20 and $1.60, depending on your electric company.
A gallon of gas today costs around $2.75 (I paid $2.45 yesterday, but I'm talking national averages).

So, even if you run only 40 miles in a day, and charge it at night not using gas in the tank at all. The BEST mileage you can get is between 80-90 miles per gallon-cost equivalent.

This 230mpg figure is pure BS.

No it isn't, They got the MPG number using the current EPA formula.
Plus you are comparing apples and oranges, GM's EPA calculations are for miles per gallon of gasoline, not a cost comparison.

[ChicoLibertarian]

Okay, so it is supposed to go 40 miles between charges, and to fully charge it takes 10 KWh. Those are numbers we can use here:

10 KWh will cost you, the homeowner, between $1.20 and $1.60, depending on your electric company.
A gallon of gas today costs around $2.75 (I paid $2.45 yesterday, but I'm talking national averages).

So, even if you run only 40 miles in a day, and charge it at night not using gas in the tank at all. The BEST mileage you can get is between 80-90 miles per gallon-cost equivalent.

This 230mpg figure is pure BS.

Off-peak hours from PG&E is about $.09/KWh in Northern California. This is close to the national average, but some states (e.g. Missouri at $.063/KWh) are cheaper. The national average is said to be $.089/KWh.

Plus, the article states that GM estimates it will require 8KWh to charge the battery. So it seems that the cost for a full charge is closer to $0.72.

Of course,t he 230 mpg number is simply marketing hype. Your fuel economy will depend of the distance you drive and the conditions of your drive.

[Tigerdrafted]

230 mpg when pushed by 4 UAW workers.

[Chewbacca]

Off-peak hours from PG&E is about $.09/KWh in Northern California. This is close to the national average, but some states (e.g. Missouri at $.063/KWh) are cheaper. The national average is said to be $.089/KWh.

Plus, the article states that GM estimates it will require 8KWh to charge the battery. So it seems that the cost for a full charge is closer to $0.72.

Of course,t he 230 mpg number is simply marketing hype. Your fuel economy will depend of the distance you drive and the conditions of your drive.

The problem with the rating is that the traditional metric of "miles per gallon" is meaningless when, for most people, the car will rarely ever use gasoline.

[Clamp]

Off-peak hours from PG&E is about $.09/KWh in Northern California. This is close to the national average, but some states (e.g. Missouri at $.063/KWh) are cheaper. The national average is said to be $.089/KWh.

Plus, the article states that GM estimates it will require 8KWh to charge the battery. So it seems that the cost for a full charge is closer to $0.72.

Of course,t he 230 mpg number is simply marketing hype. Your fuel economy will depend of the distance you drive and the conditions of your drive.

Are those rates for generation? Or generation and transmission? In NJ the total kWh is about double your figures.

Anyway, on a tangent, I think of the current U.S. power generation as the internet was in around '95 or so. There were roughly 15 to 20 million users. Right now, without me looking up the numbers, I'd say it could be around the same for people generating their own supplemental power via solar and wind.

Eventually, as it catches on, many more will be generating their own power, just as many more are now on the internet. Currently there are around 220 million people online in the U.S. alone.

Bear with me here... :)

Everyone that is now on the net had to cough up anywhere from 500 to 1000+ for a computer. Add in your monthly cost for internet access. Then add in that computers are generally replaced every 2 to 6 years.

Now, as people add solar and wind to their property, and the ROI starts coming in, more people will do it which will be less of a load on the "public" grid. Excess energy is sent back into the public grid, distributing it to the users that need it at the time. Just like distributed or cloud computing.

No laws needed, no rules needed, just add it as you feel the need to try it...just as people connecting to the internet for the first time.

Or we could just burn all of our garbage in gas plasma plants and solve the whole shebang in one fell swoop... :)

[Joeybear23]

No it isn't, They got the MPG number using the current EPA formula.
Plus you are comparing apples and oranges, GM's EPA calculations are for miles per gallon of gasoline, not a cost comparison.

The Volt will NEVER get 230 miles on a gallon of gasoline.

Heck, I can say my truck gets 1000 miles per gallon, so long as 980 of it are coasting downhill with the motor off. This EPA estimate is a skewed number to make the goverrnment-subsidized crap car maker look good.

[Joeybear23]

Off-peak hours from PG&E is about $.09/KWh in Northern California. This is close to the national average, but some states (e.g. Missouri at $.063/KWh) are cheaper. The national average is said to be $.089/KWh.

Plus, the article states that GM estimates it will require 8KWh to charge the battery. So it seems that the cost for a full charge is closer to $0.72.

Of course,t he 230 mpg number is simply marketing hype. Your fuel economy will depend of the distance you drive and the conditions of your drive.

Where you getting your numbers from?

The department of energy says the national average is 11.59 cents per KWh, and California is 14.21.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

And that's just price per KWh, not included surcharges and PCRF charges...

[Clamp]

The Volt will NEVER get 230 miles on a gallon of gasoline.

Heck, I can say my truck gets 1000 miles per gallon, so long as 980 of it are coasting downhill with the motor off. This EPA estimate is a skewed number to make the goverrnment-subsidized crap car maker look good.

Its sounds as unbelievable as the CSX commercials where they state that they can currently move 1 ton of freight 423 miles on 1 gallon of fuel....

Just math it out to your advantage... :)

[Flipple]

Wow, people will try to crap on anything at all here. I imagine that of cancer was cured you'd have people here bitching about job losses in cancer clinics.

Doug

This is beneath you, Doug.

[Joeybear23]

The problem with the rating is that the traditional metric of "miles per gallon" is meaningless when, for most people, the car will rarely ever use gasoline.

The idea that most people drive less than 40 miles per day is another deceptive use of numbers. I'd like to know what demographic they used to calculate that. Any links?

[blackcatrun]

Wow, people will try to crap on anything at all here. I imagine that of cancer was cured you'd have people here bitching about job losses in cancer clinics.

Doug

Junk,pipe dream and wont work in the real world.


They need a good slogan to sell people "thier own cars".

Maybe, the feds liked GM so much we tax payers bought the company.

Only twits buy cars they already payed for.

[Chewbacca]

The Volt will NEVER get 230 miles on a gallon of gasoline.

Heck, I can say my truck gets 1000 miles per gallon, so long as 980 of it are coasting downhill with the motor off. This EPA estimate is a skewed number to make the goverrnment-subsidized crap car maker look good.

This is actually a valid point. I don't know how the EPA rating was arrived at, but if it accounts for the fact that most people will use the plug in aspect and rarely need to fill up, its disingenuous.

I wouldn't say that its just to make a GM car look good because its the same metric that they will have to use with every plug in hybrid (regardless of company) from here on out.

[fava]

3 cylinder engine will get you from 0-60 in a week and dead on the first entrance ramp on I-20.
I understand it comes with pedals to get you over the 2% grades.

[Chewbacca]

The idea that most people drive less than 40 miles per day is another deceptive use of numbers. I'd like to know what demographic they used to calculate that. Any links?

Link:lhttp://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/figure_02.html

This is the link GM provided to substantiate their claim that most people can be served with a range of 40 miles per day.

It looks like they were not taking into account any other driving except the daily, round trip work commute (which I would assume accounts for the majority of most peoples driving).

[Clamp]

Link:lhttp://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/figure_02.html

This is the link GM provided to substantiate their claim that most people can be served with a range of 40 miles per day.

It looks like they were not taking into account any other driving except the daily, round trip work commute (which I would assume accounts for the majority of most peoples driving).

I drive 18 miles to work & 18 miles back every day, 5 days a week. On the weekends I drive anywhere from 5 to 30 miles on average.

40 miles per day X 7 days = 280 miles per week.

My total equals 210 on the high side.

[Joeybear23]

Link:lhttp://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/figure_02.html

This is the link GM provided to substantiate their claim that most people can be served with a range of 40 miles per day.

It looks like they were not taking into account any other driving except the daily, round trip work commute (which I would assume accounts for the majority of most peoples driving).

As I figured: home to work travel only.

Unfortunately, not everyone is a robot who only drives from home to work and back.

Also, the 40 mile range is under optimal conditions... so the 6 months out of the year that you have to run teh A/C in the southern half of the nation wouldn't fall into that category.

The EPA estimates are supposed to give people an idea as to how much fuel they will have to use to operate their vehicle. This 230mpg estimate is an outright lie, and the vast majority of the 10 people who buy one of these nickel-mining honeys will be sorely disappointed.

[PheonixOps]

isnt GM one of hannity's sponsors?

:) I was just going to ask that question..........
At least 2 times per hour I hear Sean doing a commercial for.............GM.

[Chewbacca]

As I figured: home to work travel only.

Unfortunately, not everyone is a robot who only drives from home to work and back.

Also, the 40 mile range is under optimal conditions... so the 6 months out of the year that you have to run teh A/C in the southern half of the nation wouldn't fall into that category.

The EPA estimates are supposed to give people an idea as to how much fuel they will have to use to operate their vehicle. This 230mpg estimate is an outright lie, and the vast majority of the 10 people who buy one of these nickel-mining honeys will be sorely disappointed.

Someone in another thread on this same topic actually found a quote regarding the methodology used to calculate the 230 mpg rating and it IS pretty questionable.

The measure for plug in hybrids goes like this: Drive for as long as you can on the battery, then go for as long as you can on an additional "battery cycle" using the on board generator.

Your mpg is calculated as [(miles driven on battery) + (miles driven in the additional cycle)] / (fuel used in the additional cycle).

For the Volt this came out to (40 + 11) / .22 = 231.8 "mpg"

So the 230 mpg is meaning full in that people who drive the car shorter distances ( mostly using the energy stored in the battery) will find that they have to fill up their tank on a 230 mpg schedule (i.e because they use plug in power, they don't have to fill up on gas).

However in terms of true "energy economy" the car is probably no better than the Prius. The on board generator has an mpg of 11/.22 = 50 mpg, and the energy used by the battery is dependent on how efficient our power plants are (a gallon of gasoline has about 36 kWh worth of energy in it, of which roughly 14.5 kWh is actually generated in a plant...this will take the Volt about 60 miles).

[Clamp]

As I figured: home to work travel only.

Unfortunately, not everyone is a robot who only drives from home to work and back.

Also, the 40 mile range is under optimal conditions... so the 6 months out of the year that you have to run teh A/C in the southern half of the nation wouldn't fall into that category.

The EPA estimates are supposed to give people an idea as to how much fuel they will have to use to operate their vehicle. This 230mpg estimate is an outright lie, and the vast majority of the 10 people who buy one of these nickel-mining honeys will be sorely disappointed.

I'm not a robot and I only drive what I stated in my previous post.

Do you have any figures regarding fuel consumption with AC on/off?

[Chewbacca]

Do you have any figures regarding fuel consumption with AC on/off?

Wouldn't that depend on the size/power of the engine? If you have a small engine, the power necessary to run the AC will be a greater fraction of total power than if you have a large engine. As a result a smaller engine will see a greater drop off in MPG when the AC is running than a larger one.

[Clamp]

Wouldn't that depend on the size/power of the engine? If you have a small engine, the power necessary to run the AC will be a greater fraction of total power than if you have a large engine. As a result a smaller engine will see a greater drop off in MPG when the AC is running than a larger one.

Smaller engine will be in a smaller car, with a smaller passenger cabin, which requires less cooling and a smaller compressor, with less resistance causing energy loss via friction, which is the culprit.

[Joeybear23]

I'm not a robot and I only drive what I stated in my previous post.

Do you have any figures regarding fuel consumption with AC on/off?

I do know that the EPA recently revised their estimates on vehicles because they were all done under optimal conditions for the best fuel economy (No A/C, flowing traffic, consistent speeds, slow acceleration, etc) Now it seems like they are changing the rules again to make this vehicle look better...

[msny]

The newly owned Gummint Motors says the new version of Chevy Volt will be certified at 230mpg...

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108

Of course for the purposes of this study, a "mile" has been reduced to 528 feet for fairness.

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things? Electricity isn't free either and exchanging the seen (car emissions) for the unseen (coal plants) doesn't help the liberal climate change fairy tale one bit.

And I hear that when the batteries go, they go. Requiring a huge replacement cost.

I work for a major supplier of GM, and we make some parts for the Volt.

I can address the battery issue very simply.

Battery exchange stations...

There are plans for several competing businesses to get started
on this very some. Similar to a gas station, but instead you will
exchange the battery group you have for another when it runs down.
A fee will be changed based on the life the rmeaing battery and
for charging a new one.

The biggest problem with the volt is not the tech, but the price.
At 40 grand its out reach for typical buyers right now.
It will take two or three generations, like the Prious, to get that
lower. The Volt is like the early cell phone of the late 1980's. Big,
costly, untested reliability, and not ready for prime time.

I'm all for new tech, but dont get me wrong, we need to drill
like crasy, until it realy arives.

[bloods vs crips]

These cars wont make a difference. Chances are we will pollute more charging the damn things than we will running the cars we have now. Let me clue you guys in on something if the last 20 years has taught me anything it is who ever controls our energy controls the country. Can you imagine the rationing on electricity this will caue when we are all forced to use these cars?

in the last 20 years, the same people have controlled energy. Really it's been about 100 years, since Standard Oil was broken up.

[bloods vs crips]

I guess they redesigned the Volt.
The original design contained no combustion engine, and had a 40 mile limit between charges.

But, what you fail to address is the fact that the Volt WILL NEVER go 230 miles on a gallon of gas. To create a new standard for the government-subsidized crap car maker just to make it look better is deceptive. This vehicle needs to be tested and rated just like every other vehicle. ive us a real number, not some figure extrapolated out based on one segment of society's driving habits.

If I owned a Volt, I'd be surprised if I didn't average 500 miles per gallon. It's a rare occasion when I need more than 40 miles of driving.

[wildcat87]

I work for a major supplier of GM, and we make some parts for the Volt.

I can address the battery issue very simply.

Battery exchange stations...

There are plans for several competing businesses to get started
on this very some. Similar to a gas station, but instead you will
exchange the battery group you have for another when it runs down.
A fee will be changed based on the life the rmeaing battery and
for charging a new one.

The biggest problem with the volt is not the tech, but the price.
At 40 grand its out reach for typical buyers right now.
It will take two or three generations, like the Prious, to get that
lower. The Volt is like the early cell phone of the late 1980's. Big,
costly, untested reliability, and not ready for prime time.

I'm all for new tech, but dont get me wrong, we need to drill
like crasy, until it realy arives.

Given the current level of tax credits for the Prius I predict at LEAST a $5k tax credit. For business fleets, maybe twice that.

[bloods vs crips]

The idea that most people drive less than 40 miles per day is another deceptive use of numbers. I'd like to know what demographic they used to calculate that. Any links?

are you serious? I only know 1 person that drives over 40 miles per day commuting. In the city (where most people live) the average commute is much lower that 40. My commute is like 15 miles, and I travel farther than anyone at my office.

[Clamp]

I do know that the EPA recently revised their estimates on vehicles because they were all done under optimal conditions for the best fuel economy (No A/C, flowing traffic, consistent speeds, slow acceleration, etc) Now it seems like they are changing the rules again to make this vehicle look better...

I'll take that as a no.

[PheonixOps]

I work for a major supplier of GM, and we make some parts for the Volt.

I can address the battery issue very simply.

Battery exchange stations...

There are plans for several competing businesses to get started
on this very some. Similar to a gas station, but instead you will
exchange the battery group you have for another when it runs down.
A fee will be changed based on the life the rmeaing battery and
for charging a new one.

The biggest problem with the volt is not the tech, but the price.
At 40 grand its out reach for typical buyers right now.
It will take two or three generations, like the Prious, to get that
lower. The Volt is like the early cell phone of the late 1980's. Big,
costly, untested reliability, and not ready for prime time.

I'm all for new tech, but dont get me wrong, we need to drill
like crasy, until it realy arives.
Excellent post, excellent points.

[homiebrah]

are you serious? I only know 1 person that drives over 40 miles per day commuting. In the city (where most people live) the average commute is much lower that 40. My commute is like 15 miles, and I travel farther than anyone at my office.

57.8 miles per day, combination rural/city driving.

[homiebrah]

I work for a major supplier of GM, and we make some parts for the Volt.

I can address the battery issue very simply.

Battery exchange stations...

There are plans for several competing businesses to get started
on this very some. Similar to a gas station, but instead you will
exchange the battery group you have for another when it runs down.
A fee will be changed based on the life the rmeaing battery and
for charging a new one.

The biggest problem with the volt is not the tech, but the price.
At 40 grand its out reach for typical buyers right now.
It will take two or three generations, like the Prious, to get that
lower. The Volt is like the early cell phone of the late 1980's. Big,
costly, untested reliability, and not ready for prime time.

I'm all for new tech, but dont get me wrong, we need to drill
like crasy, until it realy arives.

I think I read somewhere that the target life for the battery is approximately 10 years. It's a goal, but can be obtainable. The same article made the claim that the prices would go down with subsequent generations.

I'll try and find it.

[bloods vs crips]

57.8 miles per day, combination rural/city driving.

even with your weekly driving you're looking at ~100 mpg.

[Dadda]

A couple months ago our meter reader misread our electric meter. Suddenly, we had used about 10 times as much power as usual. Our electric rate went up and we were slapped with a penalty for high consumption. (The bill was corrected later) I suspect that with an electric car plugged in every night, you are looking at similar increases in electric consumption. Be prepared for some surprises in your electric bill.

[tom1468]

If one was to look at the cost
At 12,000 miles a year a $25,000 car cost $2.08 per mile not counting fuel and maintenance
At 12,000 miles per year a $40,000 volt cost $3.33 per mile not counting fuel and maintenance

To each his own, if one wishes to buy such then fine as long as it isnt "FORCED" upon all of us at some point (I believe it will be forced at some point, simply by fading out of other options)

BUT

I would like to know what the cost to charge the battery from stone dead to fully charged and what the maintenance cost is, so that we can get a better idea of the cost per mile and compared it to a gas powered engine

[Creefer]

If one was to look at the cost
At 12,000 miles a year a $25,000 car cost $2.08 per mile not counting fuel and maintenance
At 12,000 miles per year a $40,000 volt cost $3.33 per mile not counting fuel and maintenance

To each his own, if one wishes to buy such then fine as long as it isnt "FORCED" upon all of us at some point (I believe it will be forced at some point, simply by fading out of other options)

BUT

I would like to know what the cost to charge the battery from stone dead to fully charged and what the maintenance cost is, so that we can get a better idea of the cost per mile and compared it to a gas powered engine

Your figures are meaningless. Youve amortized the entire cost of the car over 1 year, which has no reflection in reality.

Also, theyve already told you, the average will be about $0.03 per mile.

Dont be afraid to actually read the articles posted all over the internet today, though

Why is everyone here so down on an American innovation? I think Doug was right with his very early comment.

[Creefer]

A couple months ago our meter reader misread our electric meter. Suddenly, we had used about 10 times as much power as usual. Our electric rate went up and we were slapped with a penalty for high consumption. (The bill was corrected later) I suspect that with an electric car plugged in every night, you are looking at similar increases in electric consumption. Be prepared for some surprises in your electric bill.

And I suspect you have no idea how much additional energy the volt will take, because you havent read any of the posted information, and would know a kW-hr from an amp.

[tom1468]

Your figures are meaningless. Youve amortized the entire cost of the car over 1 year, which has no reflection in reality..
Your right, my mistake.
That should have been done over 5 years, the average life span of the loan


Also, theyve already told you, the average will be about $0.03 per mile..
I saw a figure of 40 cents to 88 cents to recharge the car, Come on
I dont believe that

Dont be afraid to actually read the articles posted all over the internet today, though..
Pipe down I did read the article

Why is everyone here so down on an American innovation? I think Doug was right with his very early comment.
Personally , I am not down on it. I just want to see the real numbers. If it really comes down to 40 to 88 cents per recharge , I might like that. I would expect with increased demand for electricity, the cost would go up, but even if it doubled that is only 80 cents to $1.76 , that isnt bad but if it doubled so would by household electric. I just dont believe them to be the actual numbers. I would also like to see the maintenance cost

[Creefer]

Pipe down I did read the article


Then work on your comprehension.

[chip]

This is beneath you, Doug.

You new here?

[tom1468]

Then work on your comprehension.
Boy oh boy , you are just full of insult today.
Clearly my comprehension was fine, I even went so far as to post what the article said the stated cost were

Do all liberals whom dont get their way have to resort to insults?

Just cause I refuse to act like a sheep, as you do and believe everything I am told to believe. Do you not remember this is coming from someone who wants you to spend your money on their product? It is right and proper to question everything
Last but not least grow up, throwing insults to get your way went out of style when you became a adult

[chemguy]

Why am I reminded of the quote from Mark Twain "Get your facts first, then you can distort them how you please."?

[Chewbacca]

Your right, my mistake.
Personally , I am not down on it. I just want to see the real numbers. If it really comes down to 40 to 88 cents per recharge , I might like that. I would expect with increased demand for electricity, the cost would go up, but even if it doubled that is only 80 cents to $1.76 , that isnt bad but if it doubled so would by household electric. I just dont believe them to be the actual numbers. I would also like to see the maintenance cost

The Volt's battery holds 16 kWh of electricity. In April of 2009 the cost of 1 kWh of electricity was 7 cents at the lowest (in Idaho) and 22 cents at the highest (in Hawaii). The national average was 11.6 cents.

So to charge the battery (from 0 charge) you will spend
$1.12 in Idaho
$3.52 in Hawaii
$1.86 on Average

This gives you a 40 mile range, for a cost of $.0465 per mile (on average).

By comparison the national average for a gallon of gas in April 2009 was $2.06.

[Joeybear23]

The Volt's battery holds 16 kWh of electricity. In April of 2009 the cost of 1 kWh of electricity was 7 cents at the lowest (in Idaho) and 22 cents at the highest (in Hawaii). The national average was 11.6 cents.

So to charge the battery (from 0 charge) you will spend
$1.12 in Idaho
$3.52 in Hawaii
$1.86 on Average

This gives you a 40 mile range, for a cost of $.0465 per mile (on average).

By comparison the national average for a gallon of gas in April 2009 was $2.06.

So... given these numbers, the cost eqiuivalent of driving this thing would be like getting around 60 miles per gallon. Not the deceptive 230 miles-per-gallon-because-electricity-is-free estimate. :think:

[agent_86]

Wow, people will try to crap on anything at all here. I imagine that of cancer was cured you'd have people here bitching about job losses in cancer clinics.

Doug

Do you seriously think our patched together electrical grid can handle a huge influx of electric cars being charged? Can california handle the huge upgrade needed?

Electric cars are a fantasy, just like wind... unless they find a way to harness all the hot air that liberals generate, then we're golden.

[Joeybear23]

are you serious? I only know 1 person that drives over 40 miles per day commuting. In the city (where most people live) the average commute is much lower that 40. My commute is like 15 miles, and I travel farther than anyone at my office.

Thanks for the nice anecdote.

The national average is an hour and a half driving each day.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Traffic/Story?id=485098&page=1

I doubt the Volt can go 1.5 hours with A/C and stereo going without having to kick on the gas motor...

The Nissan Leaf, however, is supposed to have a 100 mile range and cost closer to the same price as a normal gas vehicle.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/automobiles/03iht-auto.html

[Joeybear23]

Wow, people will try to crap on anything at all here. I imagine that of cancer was cured you'd have people here bitching about job losses in cancer clinics.

Doug

No, we're tired of being crapped on by the government... this time it's teh EPA's turn to do the crapping.

Realistically, this thing looks to get a good 80-90 mpg in comparison to the fuel/charging cost of other vehicles. That should be good enough to stand on its own. We don't need the EPA to blow smoke by calling it something it is not. "a 230 mpg vehicle"

[Joeybear23]

oh.. and to be fair, the EPA should rate all diesel vehicles as Infinite mpg, because they don't ever use a single drop of gasoline... :rolleyes:

[agent_86]

What about the cost of bailing out GM and the cost of the government mismanaging it?

Those costs need to be factored in too.

[Chewbacca]

So... given these numbers, the cost eqiuivalent of driving this thing would be like getting around 60 miles per gallon. Not the deceptive 230 miles-per-gallon-because-electricity-is-free estimate. :think:

I agree, though I don't think its quite as simple as you make it out.

Fuel Efficiency could be measured as regarding cost, actual gas used, total energy efficiency, time between fill ups, etc.

It seems that the volts 230 mpg is derived from the fact that the average consumer will will have to stop to get gas on a 230 mpg schedule (i.e an average consumer would run out of gas in a Volt every 1400 miles or so). Of course this totally neglects the cost of the electricity in the car.

But as you said, the Volt gets 60 mpg which is a really great fuel efficiency rating, especially given that this is the first outing for a car of this type. And its an American made car. We've been behind the times on the usage of hybrid and turbo diesel technology, but here we've finally beat the curve. Its something to be proud of IMO.

[Chewbacca]

Electric cars are a fantasy, just like wind... unless they find a way to harness all the hot air that liberals generate, then we're golden.

I don't see why Electric cars are necessarily unattainable. We've been living with Standard Hybrid cars now for a while and they're working out just fine. The costs have been coming down and eventually the premium charged for hybrid technology will be offset by the fuel savings. A plug in Hybrid is simply the next step in this process. Its cheaper and more efficient to produce energy in a power plant so why not utilize that energy in transportation. Additionally if we worked on weaning ourselves off of fossil fuels (either through sustainable energy initiatives or the use of nuclear power) these cars would be a factor in reducing our dependence in foreign oil. I just think this is a pretty good piece of American made technology and hope it works out.

[DDawg]

How much is it going to cost in electricity to charge it for a 40 mile run?

How long does it take to fully charge the battery to be able to drive it 40 miles?

How do you charge it when cities start having black outs due to power shortages?

How many MPG does it get running purely off the GAS engine when you have ran the battery down to zero? I wager it isn't 230 MPG! ...

How Stupid does GM really think most people are that will spend close to $40K on a car that goes 40 miles on a charge?

I guess the same people that would trade in a "Clunker" for a new car ... or voted for Obama ... LOL

[Asfc1967]

Wow, people will try to crap on anything at all here. I imagine that of cancer was cured you'd have people here bitching about job losses in cancer clinics.

Doug


Thank you Doug. I have noticed that too. If it fall upon their party line then it is good, away from it it is bad. NO MATTER WHAT.

[Slumberjack]

Zero. The car is propelled by electricity only. The gas just runs a generator which charges the battery.

That is one of the most novel things about this car. Though I wish they had gone with the ZPower silver zinc batteries instead of the Compact Power Inc. lithium ion batteries. There were rumors about the silver zinc batteries for awhile. They probably needed to cut costs.

[DDawg]

Zero. The car is propelled by electricity only. The gas just runs a generator which charges the battery. Hopefully soon like in the marine world solar panels will be produced to eliminate gas all together.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmL8qXfvGvI&feature=player_embedded

WRONG!
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/


Q: What is the driving range of the Chevy Volt?
A: The car is being designed to drive at least 40 miles on pure electricity stored in the battery from overnight home charging. After that the gas engine will kick in and allow the car to be driven up to 400 miles on a full tank (6-7 gallons) of gas.

But, that is probably a best case senerio ... and using this data ... 400 mile range minus the ~40 using no gas ... = 360 miles divided b 6 gallons is 60MPG (and I am willing to bet this is extreme)... so ... how do they get that magical EPA of 230MPG?

OBAMA MATH?

[dizzzave]

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things? Electricity isn't free either and exchanging the seen (car emissions) for the unseen (coal plants) doesn't help the liberal climate change fairy tale one bit.


Let me break it down for you.

The Volt's battery pack is capable of holding roughly 17 Kilowatt Hours. Using the average rate for electricity ( $0.08/kwh in Ohio) that costs you roughly $1.35 to completely charge the battery pack (and this assumes a complete 0%-100% charge, which is NOT normal operation). It isn't completely no-cost, but the electricity usage is not a big deal.

Addressing your second point. Power plant energy generation enjoys operating efficiencies FAR greater than any internal combustion engine, and they centralize both the source of power generation, and pollution generation.

If a car company created an improvement (say adding an exhaust gas scrubber) it would take a long time for that improvement to work its way through the market since a car company only sells so many cars each year, and the improvement only effects new vehicles.

This is not the case with electric vehicles. When the power plant makes an improvement, that benefit is immediately passed on to ALL electric vehicles, regardless of their age.

[dizzzave]

WRONG!
http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/


Q: What is the driving range of the Chevy Volt?
A: The car is being designed to drive at least 40 miles on pure electricity stored in the battery from overnight home charging. After that the gas engine will kick in and allow the car to be driven up to 400 miles on a full tank (6-7 gallons) of gas.

But, that is probably a best case senerio ... and using this data ... 400 mile range minus the ~40 using no gas ... = 360 miles divided b 6 gallons is 60MPG (and I am willing to bet this is extreme)... so ... how do they get that magical EPA of 230MPG?

OBAMA MATH?

Its pretty simple, the EPA mileage test isn't over a full tank of gas, its over a short distance.

Lets calculate given a 50 mile test and assume that the volt gets 40 mpg when operating strickly on gasoline.

50 mi - 40 mi (electric) = 10 mi / 40 mpg = .25 gal of gas used.

50 mi / .25 gal = 200 mpg.

[dizzzave]

Of course he needs to realize that your calculation is for running a generator to charge a battery not an engine to propel the car.

Wow, I didn't realize that until I went back and read it. Thats pretty slick.

[Bluejacket]

Bull crap!!! No fossil fuels will needed to run the electric Volt. Obama is going to issue a free kite, some string and a key to all Volt buyers.

We can hook these up to tiny generators, to help charge the batteries and extend mileage and efficiency.

http://img.tradeindia.com/tradeleads/0/org_1567472.jpg

[EnchantedFrog]

Friend of mine powers his 59 foot fishing vessel using two wind generators. Ice makers. TV's stereo, AC. Refrigeration. etc...its not fantasyhttp://svhotwire.com/info/?cat=23
Don't try to tell me he propels the boat with two little windmills. :rolleyes:

Yes, maybe a few accessories running off battery power. But why is that superior to simply recharging the batteries from the onboard engine during the ride back to port?

[Danno3314]

46% of electricity in the U.S. comes from coal-fired plants. Another 20% comes from natural gas fired plants. Electric cars don't get us away from fossil fuels.

No but, it uses a lot less of it.

[content]

Wow, people will try to crap on anything at all here. I imagine that of cancer was cured you'd have people here bitching about job losses in cancer clinics.

Doug

lol. the current crop of Cons are the most negative people I've ever seen.

[WhiteHatBobby]

What about the cost of bailing out GM and the cost of the government mismanaging it?

Those costs need to be factored in too.

The government drove down automakers and ran them to the ground as part of the War on SUV's.

First, all three US automakers took government cash as was in the Pelosi Energy Act of 2007 that was "nuclear option" pushed down to ensure a 2/3 majority that eliminated a likely Presidential veto (and to prove the point, Pelosi and Reid drove Toyotas that fit the new CAFE).

They seized it because they refused the microcar agenda in the first place. That's cost by Obama Mandate. GM and Chrysler wanted to go large, Ford agreed to go small, and Obama let the one who chose small to stay alive, while seizing via hostile takeover those who wanted to go large, because Obama is obsessed with the idea of us being like Europe in law and cars.

[blackcatrun]

lol. the current crop of Cons are the most negative people I've ever seen.

Dealing with stupid liberals is not some thing that makes posative reactions.

Tell you what you want to "go green" and change your light bulbs to those expencive dangerouse light bulbs fine do so, BUT KEEP ME OUT OF IT.
Want to drive a car that if one wipes out will kill or burn those inside be my guest drive them, BUT KEEP ME OUT OF IT.
Want wind power that kills many many birds,bats a year are eyes sores and dont produce as much power as claimed go right on ahead, BUT KEEP ME OUT OF IT.

I DO NOT like being forced to live the way some one eles thinks I should or live in poverty because some thinks that I have to much.

I like my liberty and dont like those who are by force of law removing that liberty.

[coolidge]

dealing with stupid liberals is not some thing that makes posative reactions.

Tell you what you want to "go green" and change your light bulbs to those expencive dangerouse light bulbs fine do so, but keep me out of it.
Want to drive a car that if one wipes out will kill or burn those inside be my guest drive them, but keep me out of it.
Want wind power that kills many many birds,bats a year are eyes sores and dont produce as much power as claimed go right on ahead, but keep me out of it.

I do not like being forced to live the way some one eles thinks i should or live in poverty because some thinks that i have to much.

I like my liberty and dont like those who are by force of law removing that liberty.
+1

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

Dealing with stupid liberals is not some thing that makes posative reactions.

Tell you what you want to "go green" and change your light bulbs to those expencive dangerouse light bulbs fine do so, BUT KEEP ME OUT OF IT.
Want to drive a car that if one wipes out will kill or burn those inside be my guest drive them, BUT KEEP ME OUT OF IT.
Want wind power that kills many many birds,bats a year are eyes sores and dont produce as much power as claimed go right on ahead, BUT KEEP ME OUT OF IT.

I DO NOT like being forced to live the way some one eles thinks I should or live in poverty because some thinks that I have to much.

I like my liberty and dont like those who are by force of law removing that liberty.

That's great and all, but my generation is going to live to see oil become an unaffordable luxury. We have to do something.

And I have no problem with curbing liberal wackiness on this subject, but taking a hell-no-we-won't-even-acknowledge-it stance is not only putting your team on the wrong side of the issue but guarantees that the liberals will get their agenda passed unimpeded.

[JohnRandolph]

The newly owned Gummint Motors says the new version of Chevy Volt will be certified at 230mpg...

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108

Of course for the purposes of this study, a "mile" has been reduced to 528 feet for fairness.

Seriously though, don't people realize how much coal has to be burned to generate the electricity to charge these things? Electricity isn't free either and exchanging the seen (car emissions) for the unseen (coal plants) doesn't help the liberal climate change fairy tale one bit.

And I hear that when the batteries go, they go. Requiring a huge replacement cost.

My daughter's Barbie car got hundreds of miles on it before it died and never used a drop of gas. So what? It too was horribly ineffective at doing the things that normal folks need a vehicle to do.

[agent_86]

Battery chargers are don't just take electricity and pump it into batteries. Most, if not all, batteries need trickle-charged. Notice, it takes an OVERNIGHT charge.

That charger is "running" or drawing electricity all that time.

If the onboard generator goes out, you're stuck wherever you might me for 12 hours or whatever they consider "overnight".

Does anyone know the replacement cost of a battery?

[agent_86]

That's great and all, but my generation is going to live to see oil become an unaffordable luxury. We have to do something.

And I have no problem with curbing liberal wackiness on this subject, but taking a hell-no-we-won't-even-acknowledge-it stance is not only putting your team on the wrong side of the issue but guarantees that the liberals will get their agenda passed unimpeded.

There is oil spewing into the ocean from natural fissures, measuring in the millions of gallons.

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

There is oil spewing into the ocean from natural fissures, measuring in the millions of gallons.

Great, doesn't matter, as the whole damn world is shifting from an agrarian to an industrial economy, which is to oil like a junkie is to heroin.

[agent_86]

Great, doesn't matter, as the whole damn world is shifting from an agrarian to an industrial economy, which is to oil like a junkie is to heroin.

What a load of hoooie.

Oil is modernity. Without it we take steps backwards.

[Gaetano "Tommy" Lucchese]

What a load of hoooie.

Oil is modernity. Without it we take steps backwards.

Oil is today, but it's gotta become yesterday, or we're screwed.

I mean, my great-grandparents lived into their mid-Nineties (and died in a car accident, go fig), so I'm probably gonna be around til like 2100. Peak oil will have hit decades before that. Light sweet crude is not as plentiful as some like to believe.

[Apatriot]

A couple months ago our meter reader misread our electric meter. Suddenly, we had used about 10 times as much power as usual. Our electric rate went up and we were slapped with a penalty for high consumption. (The bill was corrected later) I suspect that with an electric car plugged in every night, you are looking at similar increases in electric consumption. Be prepared for some surprises in your electric bill.


If I were to get a plug-in car, I'd get a variable rate electric plan, and set it up to charge the car batteries during low power rate times (i.e. the middle of the night).

Also, if it's true that to recharge the battery takes 10 KWH, it would cost about 70 cents per day (at regular prices, not variable ones). For two cars, and assuming 30 day months, and refilling daily, that would be about $42 a month. To round it out, let's assume that we end up having to use $8 of gas a month. That's still $50 to run two cars for a month. That's not bad for fuel prices.

[Creefer]

This is plain stupid. This post 9/20/09 set of neo-cons has totally lost it. The things being said here are so untrue, unresearch, dishonest, ignorant and uninformed it's ridiculous. If this is the Republican party, I'm out.

This has nothing to do with Obama, it's been in development for years. It has nothing to do with a loss of freedom. If you don't want one, don't buy it. It's not for everyone, it's a commuter.

If you don't understand the technical aspects of the car, research. Don't put up uninformed questions that frame the car as a poorly thought out unworkable piece of technology simply because you don't have the knowledge or technical skills to understand.

Why do some here not believe anything about the American Volt, but at the same time are ready to whole heartedly accept the Tesla or the further in the future Nissan?

You guys have lost it. You have unengaged your brains and are using your broken hearts and pouring them into your keyboard.

The Volt is a nice step forward to a new possibility. That's all.

[Joeybear23]

This is plain stupid. This post 9/20/09 set of neo-cons has totally lost it. The things being said here are so untrue, unresearch, dishonest, ignorant and uninformed it's ridiculous. If this is the Republican party, I'm out.

This has nothing to do with Obama, it's been in development for years. It has nothing to do with a loss of freedom. If you don't want one, don't buy it. It's not for everyone, it's a commuter.

If you don't understand the technical aspects of the car, research. Don't put up uninformed questions that frame the car as a poorly thought out unworkable piece of technology simply because you don't have the knowledge or technical skills to understand.

Why do some here not believe anything about the American Volt, but at the same time are ready to whole heartedly accept the Tesla or the further in the future Nissan?

You guys have lost it. You have unengaged your brains and are using your broken hearts and pouring them into your keyboard.

The Volt is a nice step forward to a new possibility. That's all.

You believe the "230 mpg" rating and you're calling us uninformed?

Get a clue, Creef, and stop swallowing the EPA balogna. Realistically, the Volt will run at an equivalent cost of a 80-90 mpg vehicle for the average consumer. That's really cool. That's great. But don't try to make it sound like it's any better than that, because it is not. Electricity isn't free.

[Creefer]

You believe the "230 mpg" rating and you're calling us uninformed?

Get a clue, Creef, and stop swallowing the EPA balogna. Realistically, the Volt will run at an equivalent cost of a 80-90 mpg vehicle for the average consumer. That's really cool. That's great. But don't try to make it sound like it's any better than that, because it is not. Electricity isn't free.

Why do you keep confusing a gallon of gasoline with a dollar or a kilowatt? Nobody said they operate free. Nobody said it doesn't take electricty (except for people who want to pretend that was said so that they can somehow twist this vehicle into a slam against Obama).

I've said here and other places what the cost per mile is, and that this MPG rating is mostly for CAFE law purposes. Obviously automakers use the EPA rating for marketing as well.

I've not tried to make this vehicle sound any better than it is. I just wish people would take the raw hate partisan blinders off and discuss the thing on it's merits, not on made up ********.

[ChicoLibertarian]

This is plain stupid. This post 9/20/09 set of neo-cons has totally lost it. The things being said here are so untrue, unresearch, dishonest, ignorant and uninformed it's ridiculous. If this is the Republican party, I'm out.

This has nothing to do with Obama, it's been in development for years. It has nothing to do with a loss of freedom. If you don't want one, don't buy it. It's not for everyone, it's a commuter.

If you don't understand the technical aspects of the car, research. Don't put up uninformed questions that frame the car as a poorly thought out unworkable piece of technology simply because you don't have the knowledge or technical skills to understand.

Why do some here not believe anything about the American Volt, but at the same time are ready to whole heartedly accept the Tesla or the further in the future Nissan?

You guys have lost it. You have unengaged your brains and are using your broken hearts and pouring them into your keyboard.

The Volt is a nice step forward to a new possibility. That's all.

I have to agree with everything you wrote. It's disheartening to see people blindly bash anything that doesn't agree with their core set of values. If you want to drive a Ford F-450 as your 100-mile-per-day commuter, go for it! If someone else chooses to drive a plug-in electric, then how does this impact you? All of this bull**** insinuating that Obama is going to mandate these cars is just that.

I sure hope the Republicans can snap out of this mindset, or else 2012 won't go well for them. They've got no ideas to move this nation forward - at least none that I've seen.

[Joeybear23]

Why do you keep confusing a gallon of gasoline with a dollar or a kilowatt? Nobody said they operate free. Nobody said it doesn't take electricty (except for people who want to pretend that was said so that they can somehow twist this vehicle into a slam against Obama).

I've said here and other places what the cost per mile is, and that this MPG rating is mostly for CAFE law purposes. Obviously automakers use the EPA rating for marketing as well.

I've not tried to make this vehicle sound any better than it is. I just wish people would take the raw hate partisan blinders off and discuss the thing on it's merits, not on made up ********.

I have mentioned no parties. I do however question the motive behind this deceptive rating given by the EPA. It's similar to the EPA giving a 400mpg rating to a vehicle that runs on dead puppies and has a backup gas engine to help when you run out of puppies.

I think there will be quite teh uproar when people start buying these things and find out they are putting way more than 1 gallon in their cars for every 230 miles... Not to mention the jump in their electricity bill (extra 240 KWh per month).

[Chewbacca]

I think there will be quite teh uproar when people start buying these things and find out they are putting way more than 1 gallon in their cars for every 230 miles... Not to mention the jump in their electricity bill (extra 240 KWh per month).

To be fair, the average commuter probably won't put more than 1 gallon in their car for every 230 miles because they'll be running on battery power. Naturally they will see a spike in their electricity bill as the cost associated with buying gasoline gets transferred to paying for electricity from the grid.

Yours and Creefs disagreement seems to stem from the fact that in many ways you are both correct. Creef maintains that in terms of CAFE emissions standards and actual gasoline consumption the 230 mpg statistic is 100% accurage. You rightly state that that figure does nothing to account for the power and resources used to run the battery.

Pretty much the only thing thats for certain is that for this type of vehicle a single MPG rating is confusing and meaningless.

[Creefer]

I have mentioned no parties. I do however question the motive behind this deceptive rating given by the EPA. It's similar to the EPA giving a 400mpg rating to a vehicle that runs on dead puppies and has a backup gas engine to help when you run out of puppies.

I think there will be quite teh uproar when people start buying these things and find out they are putting way more than 1 gallon in their cars for every 230 miles... Not to mention the jump in their electricity bill (extra 240 KWh per month).

OK, I'll be calm and nice. I'm getting too touchy.

The point of the formula is to approximate how much gasoline the average consumer will use, specifically with regards to how the automakers are regulated with regard to CAFE requirements (fleet average fuel economy).

You are right in that consumers might be a little shocked to find out they don't get 230 miles for the equivalent of $2.49 or whatever (cost of a gallon of gas). GM will need make sure there isn't a false expectation. If it costs around $.03 per mile, you are looking at $6.90 for 230 miles, which would be a combination of electric and gas. Not bad, maybe little less than half of what one would expect for 230 MPG (all gas).

That being said, I don't think there will be an extreme jump in their electric bill.

[RifleM1]

Lot's of these cars on the road are going to cause mass power outages in some areas because of obsolete power grids.
Additionally the cost to replace the batteries and WHERE to dump the used.!!

NO PANACEA HERE.

:boohoo:

[Creefer]

Lot's of these cars on the road are going to cause mass power outages in some areas because of obsolete power grids.
Additionally the cost to replace the batteries and WHERE to dump the used.!!

NO PANACEA HERE.

:boohoo:

Probably not. They will mostly be charged at night, which is off-peak demand time. Also, GM will probably be lucky to sell 40,000 a year of these, at least first generation. If the technology proves out, there would be a fleet transition taking many, many years, if not decades, which would give power companies and municipalities time to react.

[Chewbacca]

Probably not. They will mostly be charged at night, which is off-peak demand time. Also, GM will probably be lucky to sell 40,000 a year of these, at least first generation. If the technology proves out, there would be a fleet transition taking many, many years, if not decades, which would give power companies and municipalities time to react.

I'd be surprised if they even sold that many. Its a standard midsize car with an electric engine...it might be sold for $40,000. At that price many people are going to be tempted to buy a luxury car rather than a sort of neat piece of technology. The Volt won't revolutionize the game overnight but its pretty sweet...and its American.

[Creefer]

I'd be surprised if they even sold that many. Its a standard midsize car with an electric engine...it might be sold for $40,000. At that price many people are going to be tempted to buy a luxury car rather than a sort of neat piece of technology. The Volt won't revolutionize the game overnight but its pretty sweet...and its American.

40,000 isn't really all that many to sell, especially if it has a little bit of "specialty" to it, being a first.

[Dadda]

If I were to get a plug-in car, I'd get a variable rate electric plan, and set it up to charge the car batteries during low power rate times (i.e. the middle of the night).

Also, if it's true that to recharge the battery takes 10 KWH, it would cost about 70 cents per day (at regular prices, not variable ones). For two cars, and assuming 30 day months, and refilling daily, that would be about $42 a month. To round it out, let's assume that we end up having to use $8 of gas a month. That's still $50 to run two cars for a month. That's not bad for fuel prices.

I hope we have the infrastructure to handle the extra power demand.

[jmb6]

The thing is that nothing will ever change, and everything will remain like it is now forever.

We'll always have plenty of mid east oil, and gas will never go above $3 a gallon.

SUVs will always be great, and every single idea ever thought up by any Democrat is evil and stupid, and is part of an evil scheme to turn America over to communists.

Oh, and some day Ronald Reagan (cue inspirational music!) will return to lead us to the promised land.

Have you learned NOTHING AT ALL HERE?

Doug

Yeah, nothing changes unless the government spends tax dollars forcing people to.

Typical liberal talking points. If things are supposed to change, why are we subsidizing GM at all? There must be some up and coming company who should be taking their place.

[EnchantedFrog]

Does this make any sense?
Makes about as much sense as claiming the Chevy Volt gets 230 mpg.

[Thanatos144]

Personally I dont care if this car can run 1000 miles per gallon I still will not by a GM car ever again. I hope and pray they go under. Government motors is a spit in the face of the founders and the country.