Good One!

[mgifford]

Deleted!

[woa_trouble]

why cant they pray?

[Radical Leftist]

I know that I will be flooded with the "yes you can pray" answers to what I'm going to post below, however, you can save them because I've heard them all. Our School System" is in the worst mess possible since the aclu and the Democrat party have made a point of creating havoc in our schools. Anyway this is my answer to all Americans who're affraid of allowing a teacher to pary in schools.

After being interviewed by the school administration, the prospective teacher said:
'Let me see if I've got this right.
'You want me to go into that room with all those kids, correct their disruptive behavior, observe them for signs of abuse, monitor their dress habits, censor their T-shirt messages, and instill in them a love for learning.

'You want me to check their backpacks for weapons, wage war on drugs and sexually transmitted diseases, and raise their sense of self esteem and personal pride.

'You want me to teach them patriotism and good citizenship, sportsmanship and fair play, and how to register to vote, balance a checkbook, and apply for a job.
'You want me to check their heads for lice, recognize signs of antisocial behavior, and make sure that they all pass the final exams.

'You also want me to provide them with an equal education regardless of their handicaps, and communicate regularly with their parents in English, Spanish or any other language, by letter, telephone, newsletter, and report card.

'You want me to do all this with a piece of chalk, a blackboard,a bulletin board, a few books, a big smile, and a starting salary that qualifies me for food stamps.
'You want me to do all this and then you tell me...... I CAN'T PRAY?

Author Unknown
Sorry to disobey you, but I'm going to have to argue the point that teachers are not allowed to pray at school. That's simply not true. If a school has that regulation, it's illegal. Nobody can, or wants to, stop you from participating in a personal prayer.

[pubschteacher]

I know that I will be flooded with the "yes you can pray" answers to what I'm going to post below, however, you can save them because I've heard them all. Our School System" is in the worst mess possible since the aclu and the Democrat party have made a point of creating havoc in our schools. Anyway this is my answer to all Americans who're affraid of allowing a teacher to pary in schools.

Have you heard this one.. From the federal guidelines on prayer in school...

These guidelines — unlike the last version from the Education Department — also address the rights of teachers. When carrying out their official duties, teachers may not encourage or discourage prayer or actively participate in such activity with students. But during their free time outside the presence of students, teachers may meet with other teachers for prayer or scripture study “to the same extent that they may engage in other conversation or nonreligious activities.”

[jimjames418]

Sorry to disobey you, but I'm going to have to argue the point that teachers are not allowed to pray at school. That's simply not true. If a school has that regulation, it's illegal. Nobody can, or wants to, stop you from participating in a personal prayer.
But it is true. A teacher or coach cannot participate in a prayer session with their students, or pray when in sight of students. The courts have ruled that if a student sees them doing so, they may think it is the right thing to do and so do it. :rolleyes:

[RWReaganfan]

Within 5 years, (now that the Dems. are in charge) it will be perfectly fine for students to worship in the Muslim manor and face Mecca.

What is the address of their manor? Is it anything like Wayne Manor from Batman? "?

Come on people! This is an education subject board! Proofread, please!

[woa_trouble]

Why would it be unacceptable to practice Islam in schools?

[Radical Leftist]

But it is true. A teacher or coach cannot participate in a prayer session with their students, or pray when in sight of students. The courts have ruled that if a student sees them doing so, they may think it is the right thing to do and so do it. :rolleyes:
That's different from saying "they won't let me pray," which is false.

And I think you're grossly mischaracterizing the nature of the court's decisions on this matter with your last sentence. Why is it so hard to have an honest debate about these issues?

[pubschteacher]

That's different from saying "they won't let me pray," which is false.

And I think you're grossly mischaracterizing the nature of the court's decisions on this matter with your last sentence. Why is it so hard to have an honest debate about these issues?


Now Jim and I rarely agree on anything, but my understanding of the guidelines is that teachers hold a special status and cannot pray in the presence of students, captive, impressionable audience, etc. This is how it was explained in my school district.

[Apatriot]

Now Jim and I rarely agree on anything, but my understanding of the guidelines is that teachers hold a special status and cannot pray in the presence of students, captive, impressionable audience, etc. This is how it was explained in my school district.


Well, can't pray in a noticeable way. I taught a 7th period class that caused me to pray almost every day (I prayed to survive until the buses came :-) )

[Radical Leftist]

Now Jim and I rarely agree on anything, but my understanding of the guidelines is that teachers hold a special status and cannot pray in the presence of students, captive, impressionable audience, etc. This is how it was explained in my school district.
Yes, that is correct. That is quite different from saying "They won't let me pray" with no explanation. There is absolutely no restriction on private prayer. In other words, they let you pray.

[jimjames418]

That's different from saying "they won't let me pray," which is false.

And I think you're grossly mischaracterizing the nature of the court's decisions on this matter with your last sentence. Why is it so hard to have an honest debate about these issues?
That is word for word from a judge's decision in which my district was involved. Matter of fact the judge ruled that the teacher could not even have any religious related material in her book bag, which the students never saw or could see but which she studied on her breaks.

[jimjames418]

Well, can't pray in a noticeable way. I taught a 7th period class that caused me to pray almost every day (I prayed to survive until the buses came :-) )
Hey you were the lucky one. You got to face 20 teenagers, think of the poor bus driver who has turn his/her back to 65 of them. :rolleyes:

[Radical Leftist]

That is word for word from a judge's decision in which my district was involved. Matter of fact the judge ruled that the teacher could not even have any religious related material in her book bag, which the students never saw or could see but which she studied on her breaks.
Got a link to that opinion? If not I'm going to go ahead and call BS.

[Radical Leftist]

Hey you were the lucky one. You got to face 20 teenagers, think of the poor bus driver who has turn his/her back to 65 of them. :rolleyes:
Maybe the poor bus driver should have gotten a degree like the teacher had to.

[jimjames418]

Got a link to that opinion? If not I'm going to go ahead and call BS.
Call whatever you wish. Just remember that not all court cases are posted on the internet to be linked to. :think:

But I can tell you it was a decision by Federal Judge Noel Fox out of Grand Rapids, MI. ;)

He passed away in 1987, and this was not the only bad decision he made in his later years. IMHO he became senile but refused to leave the bench until forced to do so in 1986.

Former Judge Noel Fox Dead . (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=110&dat=19870604&id=ou0LAAAAIBAJ&sjid=olUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3597,2561666)

[jimjames418]

Maybe the poor bus driver should have gotten a degree like the teacher had to.
Someone has to do it. Most of our drivers were local farmers whose work allowed them to take time in the winter (Michigan) to give back to the community. Plus the benefits were not bad. :think:

[pubschteacher]

Got a link to that opinion? If not I'm going to go ahead and call BS.

We have always been instructed to keep any religious material out of student sight. No Bibles, etc. on your desk. I am a bit skeptical of a decision that could tell you what you had in your briefcase. Teachers do have a special status in the classroom, but I don't see how a federal judge can make a ruling determining what private property I keep in my private property.

[Radical Leftist]

We have always been instructed to keep any religious material out of student sight. No Bibles, etc. on your desk. I am a bit skeptical of a decision that could tell you what you had in your briefcase. Teachers do have a special status in the classroom, but I don't see how a federal judge can make a ruling determining what private property I keep in my private property.
Plus I'm a little skeptical of any legal opinion, written by a lawyer, that supposedly reasons ("word for word"), "if a student sees them doing so, they may think it is the right thing to do and so do it." That doesn't sound like the kind of wording I've ever seen in a legal opinion.

[jimjames418]

Plus I'm a little skeptical of any legal opinion, written by a lawyer, that supposedly reasons ("word for word"), "if a student sees them doing so, they may think it is the right thing to do and so do it." That doesn't sound like the kind of wording I've ever seen in a legal opinion.
Research and read some of Judge Fox's later decisions. He is the judge that ordered Detroit and Pontiac to exchange (bus) their students to obtain "racial equity". That would be a 45 mile trip, each way, for the students.

He was overturned on that decision. But if it had gone through it would have cost the state of Michigan over $3 billion a year in transportation for those students.

[jimjames418]

We have always been instructed to keep any religious material out of student sight. No Bibles, etc. on your desk. I am a bit skeptical of a decision that could tell you what you had in your briefcase. Teachers do have a special status in the classroom, but I don't see how a federal judge can make a ruling determining what private property I keep in my private property.
It was a 2nd grade teacher who taught Sunday school for her church. She used her breaks to research and plan for the following Sunday's lesson. Three of her students in the classroom also attended her church and were in her Sunday school class. :think:

[Radical Leftist]

Research and read some of Judge Fox's later decisions. He is the judge that ordered Detroit and Pontiac to exchange (bus) their students to obtain "racial equity". That would be a 45 mile trip, each way, for the students.

He was overturned on that decision. But if it had gone through it would have cost the state of Michigan over $3 billion a year in transportation for those students.
What does that have to do with anything?

[Radical Leftist]

It was a 2nd grade teacher who taught Sunday school for her church. She used her breaks to research and plan for the following Sunday's lesson. Three of her students in the classroom also attended her church and were in her Sunday school class. :think:
I wonder how you'd feel if a teacher at your school was a Satanist and wanted to pray to Satan or drink blood or whatever they do in the presence of students. Would you be ok with that? Because a government actor cannot legally make a distinction between a teacher praying to Satan and one praying the Our Father. For that reason (among others), I don't have a problem with the restrictions on teachers' freedom of expression in their classroom. There's still nothing stopping them from having a private prayer.

[pubschteacher]

It was a 2nd grade teacher who taught Sunday school for her church. She used her breaks to research and plan for the following Sunday's lesson. Three of her students in the classroom also attended her church and were in her Sunday school class. :think:

Wow, I have looked around and couldn't find the case, kind of interested now. If he actually ruled this way, it is just another reason for being happy that I live and teach in Colorado. Our judges are at least consistent on most education issues.

[Lima India Bravo]

Research and read some of Judge Fox's later decisions. He is the judge that ordered Detroit and Pontiac to exchange (bus) their students to obtain "racial equity". That would be a 45 mile trip, each way, for the students.

He was overturned on that decision. But if it had gone through it would have cost the state of Michigan over $3 billion a year in transportation for those students.

$ 3 BILLION?!?!?! Really? According to my math, for 180 annual school days, that comes out to $16,666,666.67 per day. Let's just call it $17 MILLION a day. DAMN! What was the program? Charted private jets? :rolleyes: I'd have to say that was a made up "statistic".

[Apatriot]

Hey you were the lucky one. You got to face 20 teenagers, think of the poor bus driver who has turn his/her back to 65 of them. :rolleyes:


This class had 40 on roll. (Thankfully rarely did more than 20 show up, and usually it was around 10). However, it's hard to write on a chalkboard and face the class at the same time.

[Apatriot]

Someone has to do it. Most of our drivers were local farmers whose work allowed them to take time in the winter (Michigan) to give back to the community. Plus the benefits were not bad. :think:


Back when I was in high school (early 1980s), several of our teachers also drove buses. A lot of high school seniors (with full training) were substitute bus drivers.

[Apatriot]

We have always been instructed to keep any religious material out of student sight. No Bibles, etc. on your desk. I am a bit skeptical of a decision that could tell you what you had in your briefcase. Teachers do have a special status in the classroom, but I don't see how a federal judge can make a ruling determining what private property I keep in my private property.


However, you would (or should) be allowed to wear a reasonably sized cross or crucifix around your neck. I know I did for most of my teaching career. Mine was a sailor's crucifix, and students often asked what it was.

[jimjames418]

$ 3 BILLION?!?!?! Really? According to my math, for 180 annual school days, that comes out to $16,666,666.67 per day. Let's just call it $17 MILLION a day. DAMN! What was the program? Charted private jets? :rolleyes: I'd have to say that was a made up "statistic".
I am just saying what the state of Michigan said at the time. (Don't forget, politicans must get their cut) But then you have to consider how much it will cost to cross transfer 10,000 students twice a day. School buses have a capacity of 65 to 72 students and at the time the average cost of a bus was $95,000. Then figure in fuel and driver salaries, benefits, maintence, etc.

[Radical Leftist]

I am just saying what the state of Michigan said at the time. (Don't forget, politicans must get their cut) But then you have to consider how much it will cost to cross transfer 10,000 students twice a day. School buses have a capacity of 65 to 72 students and at the time the average cost of a bus was $95,000. Then figure in fuel and driver salaries, benefits, maintence, etc.
Or maybe we wouldn't have to debate any of those things if you could actually link to proof of these "facts."

[jimjames418]

Or maybe we wouldn't have to debate any of those things if you could actually link to proof of these "facts."
Having lived through and participated in these actions, I know what happened, when it happened, and, to a large extent, why it happened.

If you are interested you can do some research, if not you can take my word or continue to call me a liar. The only thing I can say about that is to repeat the old saying, "Those that fail to study history and learn from the mistakes of others, are bound to repeat those mistakes."

[Radical Leftist]

Having lived through and participated in these actions, I know what happened, when it happened, and, to a large extent, why it happened.

If you are interested you can do some research, if not you can take my word or continue to call me a liar. The only thing I can say about that is to repeat the old saying, "Those that fail to study history and learn from the mistakes of others, are bound to repeat those mistakes."
:lol: Sorry, but no, it's not my responsibility to do your research for you. When I make a claim, the burden of proof is on me. Likewise, when you make a claim, like you did, the burden is yours to prove it correct.

I am not calling you a liar, simply requesting more information. If I claimed a court case said it's illegal for teachers to go to church on Sundays, and you found that hard to believe and asked for proof, it would be my responsibility to provide it or you'd be perfectly justified not believing me. But you were the one who made the claim in this particular situation, not me.

I'm just not going to argue about a court case I've never read when all I know about it is what you've paraphrased, much of which is difficult to believe as the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I don't know you. This is an anonymous message board. Why would I "take your word for it"?

[pubschteacher]

I did a little research in to Judge Fox. He retired from the bench in 1985, so if he indeed makes this ruling, it was nearly a quarter of a century or more, so doesn't that pretty much make it moot?
The bottom line is that the federal guidelines spell out pretty specifically what a teacher can and cannot do. If a modern day Judge Fox ruled that teachers could not have religious texts IN THEIR briefcase, it would quickly be overturned.
The whole "war on Christmas", etc. has led to some minor hysteria about how public schools are zero religion zones, which they clearly are not.

Notice that the OP has disappeared, realizing their error.

[jimjames418]

I did a little research in to Judge Fox. He retired from the bench in 1985, so if he indeed makes this ruling, it was nearly a quarter of a century or more, so doesn't that pretty much make it moot?
Most court rulings are valid until overturned by a later court. ;) Brown vs Board of Education is over 55 years old but still rules. That is over half a century.

In Miranda v. Arizona (1966), the Supreme Court ruled that the police must inform Miranda of his right to an attorney and against self-incrimination. That was 43 years ago and still rules.

So it really doesn't matter how old a decision happens to be, it is how that decision is applied to the current situtition that counts. ;)

[pubschteacher]

Most court rulings are valid until overturned by a later court. ;) Brown vs Board of Education is over 55 years old but still rules. That is over half a century.

In Miranda v. Arizona (1966), the Supreme Court ruled that the police must inform Miranda of his right to an attorney and against self-incrimination. That was 43 years ago and still rules.

So it really doesn't matter how old a decision happens to be, it is how that decision is applied to the current situtition that counts. ;)

Is it your contention that teachers in Michigan are still forbidden by this ruling to have religious materials in their book bags? As I said, I got curious about this and used a teacher organization that I belong to to ask a few Michigan teachers about this issue. I have only got one response back, but this person assures me that at least in his school, the federal guidelines are being followed. He also commented that he has never heard of this case either, but would do some looking around.
I hardly think that we should compare what was obviously a poor decision by a judge who apparently was routinely overturned with Miranda or Brown. I just assumed that since this was ridiculous and happened a quarter of century ago, someone with some sense in the Michigan judiciary had already overturned it.

[angelicmadrigal]

But it is true. A teacher or coach cannot participate in a prayer session with their students, or pray when in sight of students. The courts have ruled that if a student sees them doing so, they may think it is the right thing to do and so do it. :rolleyes:

If you're not doing it out loud how exactly are they going to kNOW you're doing it?