Heroes of the Second World War: Claus von Stauffenberg

[ShinGouki]

The Second World War, as we all know, was filled with barbarism and inhumanity. Nowhere else was this more apparent than in Nazi-controlled Germany. The Nazi government agencies SS, Gestapo, and even many portions of the Wehrmacht (German Army 1933-1945, unofficially alive until 1946 as a police force post war) were involved in the greatest slaughter of mankind ever seen in history. 6 million Jews, 5 million other minorities and undesirables, and over 1.5 million Russian POWs were slaughtered like cattle in concentration camps, death camps, and on the front itself.

But, in all of this chaos and inhuman madness, there were some good, decent men. Most Wehrmacht soldiers were appalled at what their countryman were doing, but they're primary concern was to fight for their Fatherland and turned a blind eye to the atrocities on the front and back home. However, there were some men who actively sought to undermine the evil Nazi regime. One of these men was Claus von Stauffenberg.

Born as a twin (his twin died a day after birth) in 1907 in the kingdom of Bavaria (southern Germany), von Sauffenberg was raised a devout Catholic and was highly educated by private tutors. He was related to many famous individuals; he was a descendant, via his Prussian mother, of Field Marshal August von Gneisenau. Although originally interested in literature, he took up a military career.

Never a Nazi, he actually abhorred most of National Socialism. However, he tolerated it because of it's pro-military views. However, starting with the war, he began to see just what the Nazis and their organizations were doing. A Catholic, the atrocities on the Eastern front sickened his very soul. He became very critical of the Nazi regime openly, something very few other German soldiers would do. He was soon sent to Africa, where a British attack injured him gravely, losing part of his right hand, two fingers on his left, and his left eye.

Following his recovery, he became actively involved in the resistance groups in the Wehrmacht led by men like Henning von Tresckow. He redesigned Hitler's cogency plan, Operation Valkyrie, to fit the resistance's plans and was able to get the Fuhrer to sign it. Following several botched attempts to kill the Fuhrer, he was finally able to plant a briefcase bomb in Hitler's war conference near the Wolf's Lair on July 20th, 1944. Although it exploded, it failed to kill Hitler.

Although the group attempted to stage the coup (most, including Stauffenberg, thought Hitler was dead) it failed. Stauffenberg, along with 3 other Wehrmacht co-conspirators, were executed by fellow conspirator General Freidrich Fromm, which he ordered to keep them from exposing his involvement. They were initially buried with full military honors, however the next days, their remains were exhumed by the SS and they were cremated.

Stauffenberg is a true hero of World War II. Even though the operation failed and Hitler lived, it proved later on that not every German was a Nazi and that even in the hell of the Third Reich, there were those who would defy Hitler and attempt to stop his madness.

"The whole world will vilify us now, but I am still totally convinced that we did the right thing. Hitler is the archenemy not only of Germany but of the world. When, in few hours' time, I go before God to account for what I have done and left undone, I know I will be able to justify what I did in the struggle against Hitler. God promised Abraham that He would not destroy Sodom if just ten righteous men could be found in the city, and so I hope that for our sake God will not destroy Germany. No one among us can complain about his death, for whoever joined our ranks put on the shirt of Nessus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirt_of_Nessus). A man's moral worth is established only at the point where he is ready to give up his life in defense of his convictions."

Henning von Tresckow, shortly before committing suicide

[fjccommish]

Imagine how difficult it was to do what he did.

[AZslim]

I would consider him more heroic if he tried to stop Hitler even when they were winning.

[Greyclouds]

I would consider him more heroic if he tried to stop Hitler even when they were winning.

Sadly you are correct.

Formerly classified Wehrmacht correspondences and the recordings of the captured German Generals in Britain (I forget the name of the manor where they were held...) show that they were only wary of Hitler as the German war effort began to wane.

[ShinGouki]

I would consider him more heroic if he tried to stop Hitler even when they were winning.

Actually, he was openly against Hitler in 1941, when the Germans were beating the snot out of everyone. And there were Wehrmacht commanders trying to off Hitler as early as 1939.

The problem the conspirators had from the get-go was how to get the German people to support them once the coup had started. While they were winning the war, the German people were blindly supportive of Hitler and turned a blind eye to the atrocities the Nazis committed.

Those men knew that as long as they were winning the war, the German people would not accept a new leadership.

The reason they chose to act when they did is because it wasn't too late to save Europe from total destruction (and Soviet takeover) and yet it was obvious to many Germans that the war was a lost cause. Had they succeeded... Well, WWII would have ended really, really strange. After-all, the Allies demanded unconditional surrender from Hitler's Germany; the Nazi government. How would they have pursued a new German government.

[ShinGouki]

Sadly you are correct.

Formerly classified Wehrmacht correspondences and the recordings of the captured German Generals in Britain (I forget the name of the manor where they were held...) show that they were only wary of Hitler as the German war effort began to wane.

Those were those generals, most of whom were like most Germans; unwilling to revoke their oath to the Fuhrer. Men like Stauffenberg were incredibly brave, because they knew they were committing high treason. The German Wehrmacht did not swear an oath to Germany; they swore their oath to the Fuhrer, Adolf Hitler.

Those Wehrmacht officers who wanted to off Hitler early on were dead by the time the war was over. Beck was critical of Hitler from day one of Poland but there was nothing he and the co conspirators could do at that point. Tresckow became disillusioned pretty quick as well. The German people loved Hitler blindly; they attributed their military success to the Nazis.

BTW, once you start a war, you have to finish it in someway or another. I don't really blame the Germans for fighting the war. The blame for STARTING the war lies on Germany, but once war is started it doesn't matter who shot first. Both nations have the legal and moral right to fight the war to it's conclusion.

If I had been leading Germany at the time, I wouldn't have started the war in the first place, but let's Hitler had been done away with in 1941 or 42 instead of 44. When the Germans still held the initiative. I would have tried to negotiate an armistice with the Allies, but if they wouldn't have accepted that (considering they were losing at the time), then I'd have kept fighting. Why surrender when you have the initiative?

But, had Hitler been done away with and a new regime been installed in 41 before the Russian invasion, I'm pretty sure the allies (well, pretty much Britain alone) would have negotiated with Germany. Without Hitler and the Nazi madness, neither side really had no reason to keep fighting. The French would have lost some territory, as would Poland.

But the Russian invasion... Well, if the death of Hitler and the new government occurred after that then it'd be tough to say what would have happened. There is still a chance that the new government and Britain could have negotiated a truce, as the Soviet-Allied alliance was strained at best, since they only became allies because Germany invaded the Soviet Union.

[Greyclouds]

Those were those generals, most of whom were like most Germans; unwilling to revoke their oath to the Fuhrer. Men like Stauffenberg were incredibly brave, because they knew they were committing high treason. The German Wehrmacht did not swear an oath to Germany; they swore their oath to the Fuhrer, Adolf Hitler.

Many of the Generals were hold-overs from the old Weimar Military. Yes, the Wehrmacht did swear an oath to Hitler, but the Generals themselves were capable of some latitude and autonomy.


Those Wehrmacht officers who wanted to off Hitler early on were dead by the time the war was over. Beck was critical of Hitler from day one of Poland but there was nothing he and the co conspirators could do at that point. Tresckow became disillusioned pretty quick as well. The German people loved Hitler blindly; they attributed their military success to the Nazis.

You are correct about the German people and their fanaticism over Hitler, but it wasn't just the military victories that they deified him for: it was also his economic policies and his authority over the economic expansion following the massive inflation of the deutschmark (right after the treaty of versailles).


BTW, once you start a war, you have to finish it in someway or another. I don't really blame the Germans for fighting the war. The blame for STARTING the war lies on Germany, but once war is started it doesn't matter who shot first. Both nations have the legal and moral right to fight the war to it's conclusion.

If I had been leading Germany at the time, I wouldn't have started the war in the first place, but let's Hitler had been done away with in 1941 or 42 instead of 44. When the Germans still held the initiative. I would have tried to negotiate an armistice with the Allies, but if they wouldn't have accepted that (considering they were losing at the time), then I'd have kept fighting. Why surrender when you have the initiative?

Well, two things:

1. Hitler's goal was the subjugation of the Slavic peoples and annihilation of "Bolshevism" (or dictatorial communism). His campaign in the "Ostland" was of paramount importance to his ideology.

2. Mussolini was like a spoiled child starving for attention. He jumped the gun, got involved in a war in Greece (with an army that was unprepared for the fighting) and needed to be saved by his Allies. Had Mussolini kept his ego in check, Hitler might have pushed past the Ural mountains in Russia (having more months before winter to do so) and removed the second front which besieged him one year later.


Finally, the Allies sought unconditional surrender, mostly due to the beckoning of the exiled French authorities and the British Government.


But, had Hitler been done away with and a new regime been installed in 41 before the Russian invasion, I'm pretty sure the allies (well, pretty much Britain alone) would have negotiated with Germany. Without Hitler and the Nazi madness, neither side really had no reason to keep fighting. The French would have lost some territory, as would Poland.

You forget: the blitzkrieg damaged much of the population centers of the United Kingdom as well. For Churchill and the King and Queen to sit by and negotiate even a "neutral" truce would have been in poor taste to their constituents.


But the Russian invasion... Well, if the death of Hitler and the new government occurred after that then it'd be tough to say what would have happened. There is still a chance that the new government and Britain could have negotiated a truce, as the Soviet-Allied alliance was strained at best, since they only became allies because Germany invaded the Soviet Union.

I still don't think so. British enmity towards Germany would have prevented reasonable terms for surrender; unconditional surrender was the only route after Hitler committed the Luftwaffe to bomb Britain during the Blitz.

[The End]

If you think that killing Hitler would have ended the war, then you are naive. The people that were truely behind the Allied war effort wanted to see Germany destroyed. The original Morgenthau Plan and the book Germany Must Perish are proof of this.

Contrary to what you are told in school the blitz was ordered in retaliation for the bombing of German population areas by the British. The blitz occured several months after the British had been bombing German cities.

[ShinGouki]

If you think that killing Hitler would have ended the war, then you are naive. The people that were truely behind the Allied war effort wanted to see Germany destroyed. The original Morgenthau Plan and the book Germany Must Perish are proof of this.

Contrary to what you are told in school the blitz was ordered in retaliation for the bombing of German population areas by the British. The blitz occured several months after the British had been bombing German cities.

Never said it would have ended the war.

And the Morgenthau plan and the Book were not endorsed by Winston Churchill or FDR. Only Stalin held views that were similar to those plans. Well, FDR was at first interested in an agricultural Germany, but Churchill was vehemently against anything like that.

[dave rogers]

Imagine how difficult it was to do what he did.
I have and can't. God bless him for his courage and strength.

[ShinGouki]

I have and can't. God bless him for his courage and strength.

I believe that even though he and the others failed to kill Hitler, they did succeed in one key area.

They gave the German people the ability to be proud of something that occurred in WWII. There is no denying that Nazi Germany was the aggressor in that war and the cause of millions of deaths. Men like Stauffenberg gave them something to be proud of.

I believe personally that the Germans had every right to be proud of their individual soldiers anyway; they fought bravely and held out against all odds until the very end. After-all, the German Wehrmacht was arguably the best Army of the war. Soldiers of any nation sans those who directly break the rules deserve the utmost respect.

But the actual war... Well... That's a different story.

[dave rogers]

I believe that even though he and the others failed to kill Hitler, they did succeed in one key area.

They gave the German people the ability to be proud of something that occurred in WWII. There is no denying that Nazi Germany was the aggressor in that war and the cause of millions of deaths. Men like Stauffenberg gave them something to be proud of.

I believe personally that the Germans had every right to be proud of their individual soldiers anyway; they fought bravely and held out against all odds until the very end. After-all, the German Wehrmacht was arguably the best Army of the war. Soldiers of any nation sans those who directly break the rules deserve the utmost respect.

But the actual war... Well... That's a different story.
I'm not sure how I feel about the soldiers that were simply fighting for their country. I hope I will evaluate any war I am asked to fight in. To me the reasons for fighting must be justifiable. Having the high moral ground is absolutely a requirement for me to fight or support fighting in a war. German soldiers were fighting hard and prudly while they seemed unstoppable. When the tide started to turn then the reason for them fighting in the first place forced them to take a hard look at what they've done and had no moral high ground to prop up their courage and brave actions. Instead the fact that they were in the wrong became glaringly obvious and helped to demoralize them along with the shortage of supplies and being relentlously attacked by the ****ed off Allied armies.

[ShinGouki]

I'm not sure how I feel about the soldiers that were simply fighting for their country. I hope I will evaluate any war I am asked to fight in. To me the reasons for fighting must be justifiable. Having the high moral ground is absolutely a requirement for me to fight or support fighting in a war. German soldiers were fighting hard and prudly while they seemed unstoppable. When the tide started to turn then the reason for them fighting in the first place forced them to take a hard look at what they've done and had no moral high ground to prop up their courage and brave actions. Instead the fact that they were in the wrong became glaringly obvious and helped to demoralize them along with the shortage of supplies and being relentlously attacked by the ****ed off Allied armies.

Most German soldiers were draftees who simply answered the call to fight for the Fatherland. Most were good men. The majority did believe in the Fuhrer and turned a blind eye to the atrocities being committed because the survival of "Sacred Germany" was more important to them. I think Americans would be the same way if the very survival of their country was at stake.

Had it not been for the British and the Americans, I honestly believe the Soviet Union would have exterminated all German speaking people. That is how angry they were.

[H-minus]

He was no hero he was a nationalist.

Like all the July plotters, they hoped to continue the war in the east after a peace deal with the west.

[dave rogers]

He was no hero he was a nationalist.

Like all the July plotters, they hoped to continue the war in the east after a peace deal with the west.
He tried to kill Hitler. Thats good enough for me.

[ShinGouki]

He was no hero he was a nationalist.

Like all the July plotters, they hoped to continue the war in the east after a peace deal with the west.

They didn't have a choice in the east, H-minus. Men like Trescow and Stauffenberg (who fought on the eastern front) knew the Russians would NEVER accept an armistice or a treaty. They felt that the Western powers, considering the strained nature of the Allied-Soviet (I hate it when people say the Soviets were part of the Allies; they weren't) relationship, would be more willing to negotiate a peace.

In the east, there was no choice. They had to either beat the Soviets, or accept that millions of Germans would die at the hands of murderous marauding Soviet soldiers who actually committed MORE atrocities than the Germans ever did.

And besides, Germans and Russians had HATED each other for centuries. That's why the Eastern front was so brutal on both sides. It wasn't just the Germans doing the exterminating; the Russians exterminated as well and slaughtered German POWs for sport. Neither side could negotiate. It's like expecting the Iranians and the Israelis to negotiate; they hate each other. It won't happen.

And what's wrong with a German nationalist? After-all, we are taught to believe in "American Exceptional-ism" which itself is a form of nationalism. The believe that our country is morally superior to others.

Stauffenberg wanted to create a Germany that would be the shining, moral authority in Europe. Germany was to take it's rightful, historical role of the moral society on the plains of Europe... Hitler ruined all of that. That's one reason Stauffenberg hated the Fuhrer.

[H-minus]

You want heroes of WWII, here, this is a hero of WWII:

John R Towle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Towle)

[ShinGouki]

John was a hero. But the reason for this post was to show a German hero. German soldiers don't get the respect they deserve. Just look at the way our media treats them. In almost every WWII movie involving German soldiers, they are shown as heartless, callous, almost mindless dogs who are hell bent on killing the perfectly innocent Americans and British and the Russians (which is ironic considering the Russians committed more atrocities than the Germans did).

They were soldiers, just like our soldiers. They were fighting for their country, the fellow soldiers, and their families. The most emotional actual WWII video I have ever seen was a video of a German soldier sitting down and simply crying. It was a very moving scene; back at the time, I believed the media's portrayal of German soldiers. But that video changed my opinion; it proved that the average German soldier was just a young kid (someone my age) sent into a conflict that was like no other. War changes people. Innocent kids go into combat and come out, in many cases, as either hardened killers or emotional wrecks.

I love soldiers of all countries, of all wars. They all, with the exception of those who individually committed atrocities, deserve respect. I'm a southerner, and I revere Confederate soldiers. If I can revere them, considering the government they were fighting for, I see no problem with having at least a little respect for the German veterans of the Wehrmacht.

[H-minus]

The plotters were not hereos, they were imperialists and nationalists, they too wanted to capture Russia, they turned on Hitler when they started to lose.

[H-minus]

Again, you want heroes of WWII?

This is a hero of WWII:

Howard W. Gilmore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Gilmore)

[ShinGouki]

The plotters were not hereos, they were imperialists and nationalists, they too wanted to capture Russia, they turned on Hitler when they started to lose.

Imperialism and Nationalism... Problems every European country had had since the end of the Napoleonic era. :rolleyes:

In World War I, we sent 172,000 young men to die for French and British Imperialism. Noone complains about that. "But ShinGouki, Germany wanted to conquer the world then, too" which is bullcrap. World War I was a war of European stupidity. Every European country was to blame for the first World War. We had no business getting involved AT ALL. Should have kept those 172,000 men who died at home.

Actually, Teskcow was against the war in the East, but like most people he was smart enough to realize that you simply can't turn off a war with a communist Superpower. Once it starts, one or the other has to be destroyed. And I'd have much preferred a non-Nazi Germany the victor. Most of the older collaborators had been against the war in the East, but for reasons different than you and me. For us, our moral code says "don't start wars" but for them it was more of a "we would like to attack Russia, but it's more of a we can't win situation."

And look at Stauffenberg's quotes. The man was against Hitler's policies as early as 1941. Were all the conspirators good men? Definitely not. Men like Fromm were cowards. But Stauffenberg was a truly good man.

Also, are only Americans worthy of being called Heroes? Are the thousands of Brits, French, and other allied soldiers not worthy of praise?

And what about German and Japanese veterans? Who fought proudly and bravely for their nations. Do they not deserve the title of "hero" for what they went through? Oh, I forgot, because only Americans matter. :rolleyes:

What about Kurt Knispel, a German tank commander of WWII who scored a whopping 168 tank to tank kills and gave his life in defense of Germany? Even though he was born in Czechoslovakia, he was a Sudeten German. He fought for his Fatherland proudly.

I'm as pro-American as you can get, but I view heroes from other countries, too.

[H-minus]

He was against him in 41...the war started in 39.

None of the bomb plotters were 'heroes.'

You want heroes of WWII?

That's a hero of WWII.

LCDR C. Wade McClusky (http://www.cv6.org/company/accounts/wmcclusky/)

[Late2TheParty]

The problem with killing Hitler, the entire problem, was that cutting off the head of the snake was not enough at that point. You had to take down the entire Nazi leadership, else they would continue the war to its inevitable end. Operation Valkyrie sought that end. In fact, the assassination attempt was to kill Himmler and Goering as well, but it just wouldn't happen that all three be there, so instead, they got a plan together that would kill Hitler, and remove all the rest from power one way or another.

Stauffenberg was a hero for that alone. Putting his life on the line for what was right for the most people. More Germans died after 20th July 1944, than the entire previous war. I would wager America too, being only 1 month in it's major campaign of the war against Germany. Many more jews too, as it was the last year, with typhoid outbreaks and extermination camps running full-blast, that wrought the most havoc. If he had succeeded, only the Nazi leadership would have lost out.

Stauffenberg was not a saint nor would all his beliefs pass the political correct test of today's western values. However, even "George Washington", the slave owner in H-minus's avatar, would measure up here.

[The End]

Real heroes from National Socialist Germany would be men like Otto Skorzeny, Erich Hartmann, or some of the various tank commanders. One thing of interest is that other than one Russian pilot who had a little over 100 hundred comfirmed victories no one else other than a couple hundred Luftwaffe pilots scored over one hundred victories.

[ShinGouki]

He was against him in 41...the war started in 39.

None of the bomb plotters were 'heroes.'

You want heroes of WWII?

That's a hero of WWII.

LCDR C. Wade McClusky (http://www.cv6.org/company/accounts/wmcclusky/)

Really, you can't let the German's have any pride in their history can you? :rolleyes:

Look at the man in your avatar. He was a slave owner. But we revere him rightly as a founding father of this country.

Also, most Germans supported the war against France. Heck, considering what the French and British did to Germany after WWI I'd say I'd have supported kicking their asses.

[H-minus]

Really, you can't let the German's have any pride in their history can you? :rolleyes:You don't take pride in things that wern't accomplised.

All of the plotters were more then willing to support war at the expense of the weak as long as the war went Germany's way.

Not a ONE of them was a 'hero.'

So no, I will not let Germans who supported the Nazi cause as long as things went well be considered 'heroes.'

You want a hero of WWII?

That's a hero of WWII.

R Robert Stanford Tuck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stanford_Tuck)

[tislaw]

I would consider him more heroic if he tried to stop Hitler even when they were winning.


I tend to agree with that thought....OMG, are we agreeing? :eek:

[tislaw]

Actually, he was openly against Hitler in 1941, when the Germans were beating the snot out of everyone. And there were Wehrmacht commanders trying to off Hitler as early as 1939.

The problem the conspirators had from the get-go was how to get the German people to support them once the coup had started. While they were winning the war, the German people were blindly supportive of Hitler and turned a blind eye to the atrocities the Nazis committed.

Those men knew that as long as they were winning the war, the German people would not accept a new leadership.

The reason they chose to act when they did is because it wasn't too late to save Europe from total destruction (and Soviet takeover) and yet it was obvious to many Germans that the war was a lost cause. Had they succeeded... Well, WWII would have ended really, really strange. After-all, the Allies demanded unconditional surrender from Hitler's Germany; the Nazi government. How would they have pursued a new German government.


Where was he in the '20s? or in '33?

I'm not trying to diminish what he did........BUT, where was he in the critical beginnings of the Third Reicht?

[tislaw]

John was a hero. But the reason for this post was to show a German hero. German soldiers don't get the respect they deserve. Just look at the way our media treats them. In almost every WWII movie involving German soldiers, they are shown as heartless, callous, almost mindless dogs who are hell bent on killing the perfectly innocent Americans and British and the Russians (which is ironic considering the Russians committed more atrocities than the Germans did).

They were soldiers, just like our soldiers. They were fighting for their country, the fellow soldiers, and their families. The most emotional actual WWII video I have ever seen was a video of a German soldier sitting down and simply crying. It was a very moving scene; back at the time, I believed the media's portrayal of German soldiers. But that video changed my opinion; it proved that the average German soldier was just a young kid (someone my age) sent into a conflict that was like no other. War changes people. Innocent kids go into combat and come out, in many cases, as either hardened killers or emotional wrecks.

I love soldiers of all countries, of all wars. They all, with the exception of those who individually committed atrocities, deserve respect. I'm a southerner, and I revere Confederate soldiers. If I can revere them, considering the government they were fighting for, I see no problem with having at least a little respect for the German veterans of the Wehrmacht.


While it is a work of fiction, watch the Nuremburg Trials w/Spencer Tracy and Burt Lancaster........

This movie did a lot to change some points of how I think........and of course it has a legal point of view, which I love......it actually turned my opinion on the Patriot Act....because of the implications.

[tislaw]

Imperialism and Nationalism... Problems every European country had had since the end of the Napoleonic era. :rolleyes:

In World War I, we sent 172,000 young men to die for French and British Imperialism. Noone complains about that. "But ShinGouki, Germany wanted to conquer the world then, too" which is bullcrap. World War I was a war of European stupidity. Every European country was to blame for the first World War. We had no business getting involved AT ALL. Should have kept those 172,000 men who died at home.

Actually, Teskcow was against the war in the East, but like most people he was smart enough to realize that you simply can't turn off a war with a communist Superpower. Once it starts, one or the other has to be destroyed. And I'd have much preferred a non-Nazi Germany the victor. Most of the older collaborators had been against the war in the East, but for reasons different than you and me. For us, our moral code says "don't start wars" but for them it was more of a "we would like to attack Russia, but it's more of a we can't win situation."

And look at Stauffenberg's quotes. The man was against Hitler's policies as early as 1941. Were all the conspirators good men? Definitely not. Men like Fromm were cowards. But Stauffenberg was a truly good man.

Also, are only Americans worthy of being called Heroes? Are the thousands of Brits, French, and other allied soldiers not worthy of praise?

And what about German and Japanese veterans? Who fought proudly and bravely for their nations. Do they not deserve the title of "hero" for what they went through? Oh, I forgot, because only Americans matter. :rolleyes:

What about Kurt Knispel, a German tank commander of WWII who scored a whopping 168 tank to tank kills and gave his life in defense of Germany? Even though he was born in Czechoslovakia, he was a Sudeten German. He fought for his Fatherland proudly.

I'm as pro-American as you can get, but I view heroes from other countries, too.


Again, as early as 1941?

What about Bohemia? *sorry, have personal issue here* historic nation that ended up being annexed to Germany in 1938, or my other family in Moravia, in other words taken over in 1939.....

So many actions taken prior t 1941......so many people wiped out, and they were non-Jewish...

I'm sorry, I have less issue w/people who fought from the beginning to middle than someone who comes at the end......because the war is not embodying what they thought it would.

[tislaw]

Really, you can't let the German's have any pride in their history can you? :rolleyes:

Look at the man in your avatar. He was a slave owner. But we revere him rightly as a founding father of this country.

Also, most Germans supported the war against France. Heck, considering what the French and British did to Germany after WWI I'd say I'd have supported kicking their asses.


I'm a Mutt, my father's line follows thus (my mother's line irrelevent for this discussion)

Dad

Mother - 1/2 paiute = other 1/2 unknown

Father - 1/2 German - 1/2 Bohemian

See what I mean.......

Are there honorious Germans, during WWII? Schindler in 1939...

Course there are......thousands, I'm sure upon thousand........my issue is you are bringing up someone who had an issue as early as 1941?

[The End]

The Germans will be forever demonized by the powers that be. However as time passes by the so called truths and facts from that era have been revealed to be mere propaganda or outright bs. A case in point would be the Berlin Olympics. The media and the education system tries to claim that the all white German Olympic team was defeated and humbled in competition. When one looks at the medal count however that is not the case. The second place U.S. team finished around 20 medals behind the first place German team. This recent newspaper article from the British newspaper the Telegraph also dispels the myth that Adolph Hitler snubbed Jessie Owens. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/6008196/Adolf-Hitler-did-shake-hands-with-Jesse-Owens.html
The other interesting thing about Jesse Owens is that Hitler showed Owens more respect than the U.S. ever did. After Owens returned home he was sent back to being a nobody.

[Clintville]

The Germans will be forever demonized by the powers that be.
They did kind of start the worst war humanity has ever suffered and committed numerous genocides that killed over 11 million people.