I side with the teachers on this issue

[jimjames418]

Obama chides California for not using test scores to evaluate teachers (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-education25-2009jul25,0,4550811.story)
At stake are billions in federal stimulus funds to be allocated in 'Race to the Top' grants. Schwarzenegger says state law will be amended if necessary to comply.
No matter how good a teacher is, a student who does not want to learn and does not have support at home for education, will always do poorly on tests. Using those test results to evaluate a teacher is wrong, very wrong. IMHO anyway.

[pubschteacher]

Obama chides California for not using test scores to evaluate teachers (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-education25-2009jul25,0,4550811.story)

No matter how good a teacher is, a student who does not want to learn and does not have support at home for education, will always do poorly on tests. Using those test results to evaluate a teacher is wrong, very wrong. IMHO anyway.

I agree, there are too many variables. I teach AP courses and my students are going to do well on any test they are given. Last year, I had zero 504 plans, zero IEP's, and kids with no work ethic rarely choose to take an advanced placement class.

In Colorado, the CSAP test only tests math, reading, writing and science (in some grades). Now I teach social studies, what test scores are going to be used to evaluate me? Also, the CSAP test is voluntary in Colorado. If a student doesn't take the test, they are counted as a zero. I hope Arne knows the can of worms he is about to open.

[Wake-Up]

You are right for isolated test scores. I don't think anyone would favor actions on one set of scores, high or low.

Trended results may identify problems with a particular educator that a district needs to address.

[See It Clearly]

You are right for isolated test scores. I don't think anyone would favor actions on one set of scores, high or low.

Trended results may identify problems with a particular educator that a district needs to address.

Perhaps it is the Teachers who need testing in some cases. :think:

[Epic_Dude]

Maybe it's the material being taught/force-fed to the students.

[chris13]

Then how do we evaluate teachers?
On other (nationalized like Stanford) test scores?
On how many students pass, or their average grades?
On how well they fill out their paperwork or lesson plans?

[Impenitent]

praxis tests

[Epic_Dude]

praxis tests

agree'd


If you have the drive and mental aptitude to pass the praxis tests, then good on you. Teach away!

[jimjames418]

The only way this would work is if there was a pre-test and a post-test. Test the students knowledge prior to the class and test the students knowledge after the class. But with multiple teachers in most situtations that would be impossible to determine which teacher actually had an impact. It MIGHT work in K-5 grades, but I doubt it would even work there.

[jimjames418]

agree'd


If you have the drive and mental aptitude to pass the praxis tests, then good on you. Teach away!
Most states require the praxis tests in order for a teacher to receive a "Teaching Certificate".

[Epic_Dude]

Most states require the praxis tests in order for a teacher to receive a "Teaching Certificate".


Well it's not the teachers fault then...is it? Unless massive numbers of students, of all mental aptitudes, are failing that teacher's class...how can we blame teachers?

[Talk2Bill]

what I want to see is take 100 teachers with 98-100% passing and put them in a failing school. See how the test results are then.

[Talk2Bill]

A school here in dallas had MASSIVE cheating--by staff members. 100s of kids tests answer sheet were changed. The state noticed the results and then the eraser marks on the sheets. So they ordered re-takes. the passing rate plummeted.

But NOW it finally seems that in Texas they are going to look at the students history of their tests. So they look at improvement as well as over all performance. After all if a kid has never passed the math tests why should his 8th grade teacher be the only one held accountable?

[Long Island Bob]

A teacher could be evaluated using student test scores if (and only if)
- the test correctly evaluates students mastery of the statewide objectives
- at least 500 (and preferably 1,000) test scores are used (this would require many years
- the test results are compared to the test results of students of similar academic ability and socioeconomic background etc.
otherwise the potential for sample error is so greattaht the test would not be a reliable indicator of teacher quality

I find it hard to believe any plan to evaluate teachers according to test scores would include all those things. Therefore I consider any plan to evaluate teachers according to test results "guilty until proven innocent."

[historynut]

Obama chides California for not using test scores to evaluate teachers (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-education25-2009jul25,0,4550811.story)

No matter how good a teacher is, a student who does not want to learn and does not have support at home for education, will always do poorly on tests. Using those test results to evaluate a teacher is wrong, very wrong. IMHO anyway.

Correct, but what about a student who does want to learn and does have support at home for education and always does good on tests?

What if the students like that start doing poorly in one teachers class should it be checked out or should we just blame the student?

If bad students keep doing poorly blame the student. If bad students start doing good credit the teacher.

If good students all start doing poorly in the same teachers class blame the teacher.

[page017]

Correct, but what about a student who does want to learn and does have support at home for education and always does good on tests?

What if the students like that start doing poorly in one teachers class should it be checked out or should we just blame the student?

If bad students keep doing poorly blame the student. If bad students start doing good credit the teacher.

If good students all start doing poorly in the same teachers class blame the teacher.

That would send up a pretty good red flag. Even that alone is not foolproof of course. I can think of a few students who were math/science whizes, but barely getting by in english. Or they could navigate their way through an english course, but math and/or science give them great difficulties. And theres always a few other situations that can arise. Some students are at their worst first period. Some are chronically late. Some students are worthless at the end of the day. Or it could be the teacher who is worthless at the end of the day. My point is, looking at test scores as a whole isn't always worthwhile. A good administrator needs to see the score and the reason for the score. And not be swayed by politics or personal feelings. That's tough. Everyone seems to know who the good and poor teachers are, but it's a lot harder to come up with an objective way of measuring that so the good teachers end up in the good column, and all the bad teachers end up in the bad column.

[Talk2Bill]

A teacher could be evaluated using student test scores if (and only if)
- the test correctly evaluates students mastery of the statewide objectives
- at least 500 (and preferably 1,000) test scores are used (this would require many years
- the test results are compared to the test results of students of similar academic ability and socioeconomic background etc.
otherwise the potential for sample error is so greattaht the test would not be a reliable indicator of teacher quality

I find it hard to believe any plan to evaluate teachers according to test scores would include all those things. Therefore I consider any plan to evaluate teachers according to test results "guilty until proven innocent."


I would disagree. I would say look at each KID's history of achievement. Why compare johnny to sally? Compare Johnny to johnny over the last few years. How has he been doing? If he did not pass the last 3 years then it is not reasonable that he would pass this year.

The problem is that teachers do what it takes to pass the kids THIS year even if they end up further behind for NEXT year. Even if it is just a few weeks behind, over time it adds up. (keep in mind these most of these tests rely on skill 'taught' in previous years.)

[Apatriot]

Perhaps it is the Teachers who need testing in some cases. :think:


Teachers are tested.

[Apatriot]

The only way this would work is if there was a pre-test and a post-test. Test the students knowledge prior to the class and test the students knowledge after the class. But with multiple teachers in most situtations that would be impossible to determine which teacher actually had an impact. It MIGHT work in K-5 grades, but I doubt it would even work there.

Even that is to some degree unfair. A kid who wants to get revenge on his/her teachers can simply fail their subject majorly, while passing the others.

[historynut]

I would disagree. I would say look at each KID's history of achievement. Why compare johnny to sally? Compare Johnny to johnny over the last few years. How has he been doing? If he did not pass the last 3 years then it is not reasonable that he would pass this year.

The problem is that teachers do what it takes to pass the kids THIS year even if they end up further behind for NEXT year. Even if it is just a few weeks behind, over time it adds up. (keep in mind these most of these tests rely on skill 'taught' in previous years.)

That sounds like me.

While I did have college perp English, Math And History in high school (getting A's and B's) I've always had trouble because I never learned the sounds of the letters.

I was sick when they were teaching the sounds of the letters and they would not hold me back so I could learn them. Nothing like having one of you Jr. High teachers tell you to sound out the word.

If the kid will not or did not learn hold them back.

If the kid is not passing why do they get a passing grade?

[RWReaganfan]

What I find ridiculous is the number of conservatives out there who seem to think there are no qualifications to be a teacher.

It as if they think you just walk into a school with a degree and say you want to teach, and they hand ypu the keys to a classroom.

I came into teaching through an alternative certification program. I had a degree in history but was hired to teach math because that was my double minor. I had to take 30 hours of teacher certification courses, including methods classes for math and social studies. When I finished that, I had to take a college level academic skills test, a professional educator exam, and two subject area exam. Each of these tests are about the size of a women's magazine and take about three hours to complete.

When I became an administrator, I had to complete a 36-hour Master's degree program, and then take an 8 hour educational leadership exam (all essay questions) that left my hand hurting for two weeks. That master's degree took two and a half years of attending class sometimes four nights each week, and study groups on the weekend. On top of that I was going to work every day, and then grading homework after I got home from class at 9 p.m. During the summers, I attended as many day classes as I could, sometimes taking two classes each day, five days a week.

Since I left my original state, to get my administrator position back, I now have to take this state's educational leadership exam and the national exam. These two exams will cost me approximately $600 out of pocket to take, plus any prep courses I need to learn about procedures in my new state.

Sure! Teachers have it so easy. They don't deserve time off in the summer either!

[historynut]

What I find ridiculous is the number of conservatives out there who seem to think there are no qualifications to be a teacher.

It's as if they think you just walk into a school with a degree and say you want to teach, and they hand ypu the keys to a classroom.

I came into teaching through an alternative certification program. I had a degree in history but was hired to teach math because that was my double minor. I had to take 30 hours of teacher certification courses, including methods classes for math and social studies. When I finished that, I had to take a college level academic skills test, a professional educator exam, and two subject area exam. Each of these tests are about the size of a women's magazine and take about three hours to complete.

When I became an administrator, I had to complete a 36-hour Master's degree program, and then take an 8 hour educational leadership exam (all essay questions) that left my hand hurting for two weeks. That master's degree took two and a half years of attending class sometimes four nights each week, and study groups on the weekend. On top of that I was going to work every day, and then grading homework after I got home from class at 9 p.m. During the summers, I attended as many day classes as I could, sometimes taking two classes each day, five days a week.

Since I left my original state, to get my administrator position back, I now have to take this state's educational leadership exam and the national exam. These two exams will cost me approximately $600 out of pocket to take, plus any prep courses I need to learn about procedures in my new state.

Sure! Teachers have it so easy. They don't deserve time off in the summer either!

What I find ridiculous is the number of teachers out there who seem to think there are no qualifications to be a machine operator.

It as if they think you just walk into a factory and say you want to run a machine and they hand you the keys to the machine.

You Apprentice for years (6 to 8) before you are trusted alone with the machine. Not only do you need to know how to run the machine you also need to know engineering, heat treatment etc.

You need to study all the time to keep up with new materials and machines. Work all day, study and go to school at nights mostly at your own cost.

After all that when you meet your kids teacher it’s “You’re a machine operator”.

Yes I am and I’ve had more school (8 plus years) then a lot of teachers have had.

Sure! Machine operators have it so easy. They don't need there 2 weeks time off in the summer either!

Yes I get dirty on the job but you don't need to talk slow so I can understand you.

[Long Island Bob]

I would disagree. I would say look at each KID's history of achievement. Why compare johnny to sally? Compare Johnny to johnny over the last few years. How has he been doing? If he did not pass the last 3 years then it is not reasonable that he would pass this year.

The problem is that teachers do what it takes to pass the kids THIS year even if they end up further behind for NEXT year. Even if it is just a few weeks behind, over time it adds up. (keep in mind these most of these tests rely on skill 'taught' in previous years.)

If that's the case then the tests are designed poorly.

If a 4th grade teacher should be teaching something, and the kids should be learning it, then that should be on the test. That way "teaching what they should teach" and "teaching to the test" become the same thing.

[Talk2Bill]

If that's the case then the tests are designed poorly.

If a 4th grade teacher should be teaching something, and the kids should be learning it, then that should be on the test. That way "teaching what they should teach" and "teaching to the test" become the same thing.

except each new level builds on the previous. So in math, for an 8th grader to be \able to find the volume of a cone they use math learned in the lower grades.

[Radical Leftist]

If that's the case then the tests are designed poorly.

If a 4th grade teacher should be teaching something, and the kids should be learning it, then that should be on the test. That way "teaching what they should teach" and "teaching to the test" become the same thing.
At the end of the day no test is perfect and teaching to any test will result in a sub-standard education. I agree we need better ways to evaluate teachers because it should be like any other job - you must perform to keep it - I just think there are much better ways to evaluate teachers than how much they can force their students to memorize over the course of a year.

[Apatriot]

I would disagree. I would say look at each KID's history of achievement. Why compare johnny to sally? Compare Johnny to johnny over the last few years. How has he been doing? If he did not pass the last 3 years then it is not reasonable that he would pass this year.

The problem is that teachers do what it takes to pass the kids THIS year even if they end up further behind for NEXT year. Even if it is just a few weeks behind, over time it adds up. (keep in mind these most of these tests rely on skill 'taught' in previous years.)


In Florida, they do that. They compare a student to his scores from the year before. They compute a standard "growth in score" rate, and compare each student's actual growth to what would be expected. They then compute the percentage of students who match or exceed the standard growth. That is the "Annual Yearly Progress" score.

[RWReaganfan]

In Florida, they do that. They compare a student to his scores from the year before. They compute a standard "growth in score" rate, and compare each student's actual growth to what would be expected. They then compute the percentage of students who match or exceed the standard growth. That is the "Annual Yearly Progress" score.

Are you sure you do not have that confused with NCLB's AYP which has NOTHING to do with individual children?

I left Florida three years ago, so this must be new.

I always thought that Annual Yearly Progress was quite redundant. If is is annual progress, isn't that by definition yearly?

[historynut]

At the end of the day no test is perfect and teaching to any test will result in a sub-standard education. I agree we need better ways to evaluate teachers because it should be like any other job - you must perform to keep it - I just think there are much better ways to evaluate teachers than how much they can force their students to memorize over the course of a year.

But by not testing the kids you will never know if they learn anything. A teacher can give every kid in there class A's and say"Look how good I'm doing".

What's wrong with having a way to double check what the teacher is telling you. If the teacher says your kid is doing great but the test says he can not read it's a warning sign.

There was a school in California where kids got A's all though high school but they could not get into college because they could not read, write or do basic math. This was not one kid it was class after class.

But teachers say kids should not be tested to see if they are learning anything.

Sorry teachers but the first time a kid is given passing grades so they can be passed onto the next year when they should not be teachers lose the right to complain.

I grew up with kids given passing grades so they can be passed onto the next year, my kids grew up with kids given passing grades so they can be passed onto the next year.

Yes a good teacher would never do that but we are not talking about good teachers we're talking about lazy and poor teachers.

But we shouldn't test the kids to see if they are learning.

[Radical Leftist]

Are you sure you do not have that confused with NCLB's AYP which has NOTHING to do with individual children?

I left Florida three years ago, so this must be new.

I always thought that Annual Yearly Progress was quite redundant. If is is annual progress, isn't that by definition yearly?
AYP stands for adequate yearly progress.

[Radical Leftist]

But by not testing the kids you will never know if they learn anything. A teacher can give every kid in there class A's and say"Look how good I'm doing".

What's wrong with having a way to double check what the teacher is telling you. If the teacher says your kid is doing great but the test says he can not read it's a warning sign.

There was a school in California where kids got A's all though high school but they could not get into college because they could not read, write or do basic math. This was not one kid it was class after class.

But teachers say kids should not be tested to see if they are learning anything.

Sorry teachers but the first time a kid is given passing grades so they can be passed onto the next year when they should not be teachers lose the right to complain.

I grew up with kids given passing grades so they can be passed onto the next year, my kids grew up with kids given passing grades so they can be passed onto the next year.

Yes a good teacher would never do that but we are not talking about good teachers we're talking about lazy and poor teachers.

But we shouldn't test the kids to see if they are learning.

I think you misunderstand my point. I'm saying there are other, better ways to "test" if kids are learning other than multiple choice standardized tests. Obviously students shouldn't be passed if they aren't learning anything. That's not what I'm advocating.

[Apatriot]

Are you sure you do not have that confused with NCLB's AYP which has NOTHING to do with individual children?

I left Florida three years ago, so this must be new.

I always thought that Annual Yearly Progress was quite redundant. If is is annual progress, isn't that by definition yearly?

Part of NCLB's AYP (adequate yearly process) has to do with the learning gains of students. To get learning gains, you have to have two years of test scores of a particular student. In addition, an important part of a Florida schools FCAT grade is learning gains by students. If you have a level 5 (highest level student) that remains a 5, but is not making gains, that is a bad thing for a school.

[Apatriot]

But by not testing the kids you will never know if they learn anything. A teacher can give every kid in there class A's and say"Look how good I'm doing".

What's wrong with having a way to double check what the teacher is telling you. If the teacher says your kid is doing great but the test says he can not read it's a warning sign.

There was a school in California where kids got A's all though high school but they could not get into college because they could not read, write or do basic math. This was not one kid it was class after class.

But teachers say kids should not be tested to see if they are learning anything.

Sorry teachers but the first time a kid is given passing grades so they can be passed onto the next year when they should not be teachers lose the right to complain.

I grew up with kids given passing grades so they can be passed onto the next year, my kids grew up with kids given passing grades so they can be passed onto the next year.

Yes a good teacher would never do that but we are not talking about good teachers we're talking about lazy and poor teachers.

But we shouldn't test the kids to see if they are learning.


Also, some school districts only allow one failure in grades K-5 and another in grades 6-8. (this is to prevent having 17 yr olds in 8th grade classes along with the typical 13-14 yr olds)

[Apatriot]

I think you misunderstand my point. I'm saying there are other, better ways to "test" if kids are learning other than multiple choice standardized tests. Obviously students shouldn't be passed if they aren't learning anything. That's not what I'm advocating.

Yes, there are better methods, however, they can't be used on a large scale to compare large groups of students. It is impossible to use, say a portfolio based system to compare all of the 5th grade students in a single district, much less state.

[historynut]

Also, some school districts only allow one failure in grades K-5 and another in grades 6-8. (this is to prevent having 17 yr olds in 8th grade classes along with the typical 13-14 yr olds)

Who does this hurt?

If the kid needs to be held back they should be held back.

Isn't the idea to teach the kids not just pass them from class to class?

[Radical Leftist]

Who does this hurt?

If the kid needs to be held back they should be held back.

Isn't the idea to teach the kids not just pass them from class to class?
I'm not defending the practice of passing kids that shouldn't be passed, but to answer your question, when you have one or two students who are significantly older than the rest of those in your class, and it also happens to be the kind of problem student that would get held back multiple times, it can be a disruptive influence in the classroom.

I certainly wouldn't say that passing kids who aren't prepared is the solution, but having a 17 year old in an 8th grade classroom isn't ideal for the rest of the class.

[jimjames418]

I'm not defending the practice of passing kids that shouldn't be passed, but to answer your question, when you have one or two students who are significantly older than the rest of those in your class, and it also happens to be the kind of problem student that would get held back multiple times, it can be a disruptive influence in the classroom.

I certainly wouldn't say that passing kids who aren't prepared is the solution, but having a 17 year old in an 8th grade classroom isn't ideal for the rest of the class.
That is the purpose and reason for alternative education classes. At least that was the original purpose. Here lately it seems it is the place to shove some special education students as well. :think:

[historynut]

I'm not defending the practice of passing kids that shouldn't be passed, but to answer your question, when you have one or two students who are significantly older than the rest of those in your class, and it also happens to be the kind of problem student that would get held back multiple times, it can be a disruptive influence in the classroom.

I certainly wouldn't say that passing kids who aren't prepared is the solution, but having a 17 year old in an 8th grade classroom isn't ideal for the rest of the class.

Then put him in a special class. Help the kid don't just pass him on to someone else.

[Radical Leftist]

Then put him in a special class. Help the kid don't just pass him on to someone else.
Ummmmmmmmmmmm :think: I agree. Did you miss where I specifically, unequivocally stated that that is not what I'm advocating?

[historynut]

Ummmmmmmmmmmm :think: I agree. Did you miss where I specifically, unequivocally stated that that is not what I'm advocating?

I can understand that having a 17 year old in an 8th grade classroom isn't ideal for the rest of the class.

But isn't the idea to do what is best for the kid?

If you have a 17 year old in an 11th grade classroom and the kid works at an 8th grade level he is going to be a problem kid.

Wouldn't it have been much better for him to repeat 8th grade?

If you can't put him in with the 8th grade kids then put him in his own class. If he's in the 11th grade working at an 8th grade level that you know some teacher passed him when he should have got a failing grade.

[Radical Leftist]

I can understand that having a 17 year old in an 8th grade classroom isn't ideal for the rest of the class.

But isn't the idea to do what is best for the kid?

If you have a 17 year old in an 11th grade classroom and the kid works at an 8th grade level he is going to be a problem kid.

Wouldn't it have been much better for him to repeat 8th grade?

If you can't put him in with the 8th grade kids then put him in his own class. If he's in the 11th grade working at an 8th grade level that you know some teacher passed him when he should have got a failing grade.
Those aren't the only two options though. Alternative schools have already been mentioned, or special ed classes for students with cognitive issues.

You asked what the harm was in having a student older than the rest of the class, implying you thought there was none. I simply answered your question.

[Apatriot]

Who does this hurt?

If the kid needs to be held back they should be held back.

Isn't the idea to teach the kids not just pass them from class to class?

Do you want your 13 yr old 8th grade daughter being seduced or propositioned by a 17 yr old thug? Do you want your 13 yr old 8th grade son who is going through puberty to be in a PE class with a 17 yr old man-sized thugwho talks details about screwing his girlfriend every night, and then proceeds to run over your 13 yr old while blocking him in basketball?

I agree they should be held back, but that any student more than 2 yrs behind needs a different classroom setting. They have clearly shown that a conventional classroom does not meet their needs. They don't need to be sharing a classroom with conventional aged kids.

[Apatriot]

I'm not defending the practice of passing kids that shouldn't be passed, but to answer your question, when you have one or two students who are significantly older than the rest of those in your class, and it also happens to be the kind of problem student that would get held back multiple times, it can be a disruptive influence in the classroom.

I certainly wouldn't say that passing kids who aren't prepared is the solution, but having a 17 year old in an 8th grade classroom isn't ideal for the rest of the class.

Exactly, because like it or not a lot of the kids will be negatively influenced in one way or another by the older troublemaker.

[Apatriot]

I can understand that having a 17 year old in an 8th grade classroom isn't ideal for the rest of the class.

But isn't the idea to do what is best for the kid?

If you have a 17 year old in an 11th grade classroom and the kid works at an 8th grade level he is going to be a problem kid.

Wouldn't it have been much better for him to repeat 8th grade?

If you can't put him in with the 8th grade kids then put him in his own class. If he's in the 11th grade working at an 8th grade level that you know some teacher passed him when he should have got a failing grade.

Well, in most systems that have the above problem, the twice flunked kids rarely get past the 9th grade. High school teachers are given the power to fail them, and do. My third year of teaching in a school with social promotion (one fail in elementary, one fail in middle), I was introducing school rules to the class. A 9th grader raised his hands and told me "I've been here longer than you" (it was his 4th yr in the 9th grade, only my 3rd yr teaching 9th grade) "and that ain't a school rule." Well, it was a new rule. He ended up being convicted of murder in the spring. At that school, we had quite a few 18, 19 and even 20 yr old 9th graders. We simply didn't pass them if they couldn't hack it.

[historynut]

Do you want your 13 yr old 8th grade daughter being seduced or propositioned by a 17 yr old thug? Do you want your 13 yr old 8th grade son who is going through puberty to be in a PE class with a 17 yr old man-sized thugwho talks details about screwing his girlfriend every night, and then proceeds to run over your 13 yr old while blocking him in basketball?

Most of the 17 yr old thugs drop out of school. In my high school the light weight 9 graders were not in the same class as the big 12 graders so you didn't have to worry about anyone getting run over.

There are a number of small schools that have mixed age groups.

But I'm not talking about the 17 yr old thugs, I'm talking about kids that want to learn.
Kids that may have been out sick and no one ever took the time to teach them what they missed. Kids that could have been helped early but teacher after teacher give them a passing grade and sent them on to the next year.




I agree they should be held back, but that any student more than 2 yrs behind needs a different classroom setting. They have clearly shown that a conventional classroom does not meet their needs. They don't need to be sharing a classroom with conventional aged kids.

I agree that some kids need something other then a conventional classroom. Other kids just need someone to teach them what they missed.

Like a kid being told to sound out a word in Jr. High when they never learned the letter sounds in grade school because they were sick.

To me it's easy, don't give a kid a passing grade if they don't know the subject.

Hold them back, teach them what they missed and if needed put them in a non-conventional classroom.

[pubschteacher]

This is anecdotal, but in my experience the biggest issue with failing a student has been their parents. It usually goes something like this...

Student is doing poorly, parents are contacted, they promise to make sure he/she does better, things get better for a week, then back to normal, repeat a few times, end of the semester, parent starts asking for extra credit, complains they are were unaware there was a problem, teacher starts feeling pressure from parent and administration, teacher(expecially prevalent among young teachers) caves, hands out enough extra credit to get the kid to 60 percent, kid moves on.
If a parent really wants their kid to move to the next grade, administration will move them on. We have had teachers grades changed during the summer.
This thing will continue until teachers quit apologizing and backing down all the time. Kid fails your class, fail them, realize there will be pressure and deal with it.
Again, anecdotal, but most of the teachers I know don't like confrontations, so they avoid them (some of us actually look forward to them :-), thus doing the kid a disservice. Have no clue if this is what others have experienced.

[historynut]

This is anecdotal, but in my experience the biggest issue with failing a student has been their parents. It usually goes something like this...

Student is doing poorly, parents are contacted, they promise to make sure he/she does better, things get better for a week, then back to normal, repeat a few times, end of the semester, parent starts asking for extra credit, complains they are were unaware there was a problem, teacher starts feeling pressure from parent and administration, teacher(expecially prevalent among young teachers) caves, hands out enough extra credit to get the kid to 60 percent, kid moves on.
If a parent really wants their kid to move to the next grade, administration will move them on. We have had teachers grades changed during the summer.
This thing will continue until teachers quit apologizing and backing down all the time. Kid fails your class, fail them, realize there will be pressure and deal with it.
Again, anecdotal, but most of the teachers I know don't like confrontations, so they avoid them (some of us actually look forward to them :-), thus doing the kid a disservice. Have no clue if this is what others have experienced.

I do agree that happens, I've even seen it happen. But in my experience it doesn't happen very often. In our area if there is a problem kid when the teacher meets with the parents they are not alone.

Most often it's one of 3 things.

1. The kid has learning problems and needs a special class. Rare.

Problem is schools do not like to spend the extra money needed.

2. The school wants to look good so the teacher gets pressure from the school to give high grades.

Common. There are lots of kids that got A's all though high school that can't read, write or do basic math. And all though high school parents were told there kids were doing good and they could see it too - A's ana B's on the report card.

3. The parents wants the kid held back because the parents knows the kid doesn't know the subject.

Very common. The parents gets told the kid can't be held back because it would hurt the kids mental health. Would happens to there mental health because there "the dumb kid" all the rest of there school years doesn't count.
Sometimes the school is honest and tells the parents the school will lose money if the kid doesn't go to the next grade.

They do have things called teachers unions that protect teachers being forced to give passing grades, I've seen it happen. But it doesn't stop lazy teachers from giving passing grades.

[pubschteacher]

I do agree that happens, I've even seen it happen. But in my experience it doesn't happen very often. In our area if there is a problem kid when the teacher meets with the parents they are not alone.

And as I said before, in my 27 years of experience, this is by far the most common experience.

1. The kid has learning problems and needs a special class. Rare.

Problem is schools do not like to spend the extra money needed.

I'm not sure how it works where you are, but in Colorado, public schools have a duty to make accomodations for any learning problem issue. Granted, parents have to take the steps to have that problem diagnosed, but if they do, schools can't just say tough luck. They are required by federal and state law to provide for that student.

2. The school wants to look good so the teacher gets pressure from the school to give high grades.

Common. There are lots of kids that got A's all though high school that can't read, write or do basic math. And all though high school parents were told there kids were doing good and they could see it too - A's ana B's on the report card.

Again, what kids can do what they graduate from high school depends on where you live. You say there are lots of kids who got A's in high school but can't read or write or do basic math. Citation please. Granted, all I have is my 27 years, but I have yet to run into a senior or a 9th grader who can't read or write and the kids that I have that are A students are working at a very high level. If a kid can't read by their senior year, I am skeptical about how involved their parents are in their education.

3. The parents wants the kid held back because the parents knows the kid doesn't know the subject.

Very common. The parents gets told the kid can't be held back because it would hurt the kids mental health. Would happens to there mental health because there "the dumb kid" all the rest of there school years doesn't count.

This is a very rare case in my experience. Most parents don't want to admit that their dear little child didn't pay attention or do the work, or prepare for the tests.


Sometimes the school is honest and tells the parents the school will lose money if the kid doesn't go to the next grade.

Well, unless they are moving to a new school the next year, the school will continue to receive the per student funding for that kid.

They do have things called teachers unions that protect teachers being forced to give passing grades, I've seen it happen. But it doesn't stop lazy teachers from giving passing grades.

There are 3.5 million teachers in this country, so the fact that you have seen this happen holds about as much water as my assertion that I have never seen the union get involved in this kind of dispute.

50 million kids, 3.5 million teachers, 90,000 schools, making any generalization about a system that big and diverse is a mistake, IMO.

[Apatriot]

I do agree that happens, I've even seen it happen. But in my experience it doesn't happen very often. In our area if there is a problem kid when the teacher meets with the parents they are not alone.

Most often it's one of 3 things.

1. The kid has learning problems and needs a special class. Rare.

Problem is schools do not like to spend the extra money needed.

2. The school wants to look good so the teacher gets pressure from the school to give high grades.

Common. There are lots of kids that got A's all though high school that can't read, write or do basic math. And all though high school parents were told there kids were doing good and they could see it too - A's ana B's on the report card.

3. The parents wants the kid held back because the parents knows the kid doesn't know the subject.

Very common. The parents gets told the kid can't be held back because it would hurt the kids mental health. Would happens to there mental health because there "the dumb kid" all the rest of there school years doesn't count.
Sometimes the school is honest and tells the parents the school will lose money if the kid doesn't go to the next grade.

They do have things called teachers unions that protect teachers being forced to give passing grades, I've seen it happen. But it doesn't stop lazy teachers from giving passing grades.


High stakes standardized testing, however, gives the schools more incentives to retain poorly performing students in a grade. If a student fails the 3rd grade test, why put them in 4th grade, to fail it. It's better in that case to keep them in 3rd, and maybe second time around they will pass. I've had teachers tell me that before FCAT (FCAT is Florida's version of NCLB, which began a few years before NCLB), it was very hard to retain students in a grade. FCAT gave them more ammunition to keep a kid in a grade.

[page017]

High stakes standardized testing, however, gives the schools more incentives to retain poorly performing students in a grade. If a student fails the 3rd grade test, why put them in 4th grade, to fail it. It's better in that case to keep them in 3rd, and maybe second time around they will pass. I've had teachers tell me that before FCAT (FCAT is Florida's version of NCLB, which began a few years before NCLB), it was very hard to retain students in a grade. FCAT gave them more ammunition to keep a kid in a grade.

I've seen that go the opposite way as well though. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but the 4th and 8th grade tests are more important. So our school used to push most of the failing 8th graders into 9th grade, just so they wouldn't count in the 8th grade tests again. But now the state puts a lot of emphasis on the 4 year graduation rate, so putting the kids in the HS, knowing they are likely to fail, isn't such an option anymore. I'm in the HS, so I don't have as much of a problem with the older kids being with the younger. Where I see some trouble is the kid who knows they aren't going to graduate, but isn't old enough to drop out yet. The police and courts can force them to go to school, but unless they are in more serious legal trouble, they can't force them to learn. So every year I have a couple of lumps in my room who have no intention of passing, aren't even going to go through the motions to make it look like they are trying. These ones can be pretty disruptive, or at least very poor role models.

There need to be more options between moving a student along to the next grade, and having them repeat the entire grade. These two options aren't always successful, and there are many levels between being completly successful, and having learned nothing.

[historynut]

I've seen that go the opposite way as well though. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but the 4th and 8th grade tests are more important. So our school used to push most of the failing 8th graders into 9th grade, just so they wouldn't count in the 8th grade tests again. But now the state puts a lot of emphasis on the 4 year graduation rate, so putting the kids in the HS, knowing they are likely to fail, isn't such an option anymore. I'm in the HS, so I don't have as much of a problem with the older kids being with the younger. Where I see some trouble is the kid who knows they aren't going to graduate, but isn't old enough to drop out yet. The police and courts can force them to go to school, but unless they are in more serious legal trouble, they can't force them to learn. So every year I have a couple of lumps in my room who have no intention of passing, aren't even going to go through the motions to make it look like they are trying. These ones can be pretty disruptive, or at least very poor role models.

There need to be more options between moving a student along to the next grade, and having them repeat the entire grade. These two options aren't always successful, and there are many levels between being completly successful, and having learned nothing.

I've known some of those lumps who had no intention of passing they should be where they can't be disruptive.

I've also known some of those lumps who knew they would never pass so they had stopped trying. Why try when you don't understand what going on in the classroom and no one will take the time to teach you? Your going to get a passing grade anything so why try?

Heres a story about the Army taking high school dropouts -

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/articles/20061201.aspx

Out of 5,900 dropouts they lost 6.2%, too bad public schools can't do as good.

[The Gooch]

Just attended a school district teacher "pep rally" if you will. As a special education teacher in a collaborative setting, I have worked with a myriad of ability levels.

There is plenty of talk from my district about us being in a crisis due to the results from AYP statistics. I love my job and do a lot constantly to become better at it. I am also of the mindset that if you take the time to develop a relationship of some sort with your more difficult students, you can get a surprising return of effort from said student. What has been the gorilla in the room that no one is talking about is the erosion of education as a priority in the home. I can plan to the detriment of my personal life, execute that plan so efficiently, it would make a FedEx logistics department proud and gather and interpret data to see what was understood vs. what needs to be retaught etc... The bottom line is, if the expectation of being a scholar is just made in the school house and not reinforced outside of it, you will experience a frustrating amount of failure.

I know my experience is different from those at top performing schools as well as charter or private schools. I am not trying to generalize on the entire state of education in America. What I am saying is that in inner city/socio-economically disadvantaged schools, too often parental involvement is not what it needs to be to support scholarly behavior. Statistically, these schools are grouped in with higher performing schools with different demographics and parental involvement. A uniform test of teachers from both schools seems that it would be biased based upon the population demographic.

It may be a topic for another thread but ultimately, my district and others like it needs to be honest about education and not have a one size fits all curriculum for its students. As honorable a goal as it is to want to prepare everyone for college and/or a life as a professional, the reality of the situation is that this does not help all students. There are those who culturally do not make the connection between school now and success in life later through traditional classes.

How wonderful it would be to be able to teach a subject like British Literature or AP Calculus to students who not only were prepared for the content but actually desired those classes. Students who want it or who have historically performed poorly through grade 8 should have viable curriculum options to choose from in high school that may spark their effort and that they can finally excel in. With the absence of vocational options in my school system, I really wonder where my community will be in 8 years or so when all those who quit or barely tested out of a college prep curriculum with no real appetite for further schooling nor marketable job skills or trade to boot start taking en mass what they can't afford to buy.

Until we can police parenting and/or offer a variety of curriculum options that all students can be successful and become productive citizens, mandating evaluating teachers via standardized testing is a no no.

[historynut]

Just attended a school district teacher "pep rally" if you will. As a special education teacher in a collaborative setting, I have worked with a myriad of ability levels.

There is plenty of talk from my district about us being in a crisis due to the results from AYP statistics. I love my job and do a lot constantly to become better at it. I am also of the mindset that if you take the time to develop a relationship of some sort with your more difficult students, you can get a surprising return of effort from said student. What has been the gorilla in the room that no one is talking about is the erosion of education as a priority in the home. I can plan to the detriment of my personal life, execute that plan so efficiently, it would make a FedEx logistics department proud and gather and interpret data to see what was understood vs. what needs to be retaught etc... The bottom line is, if the expectation of being a scholar is just made in the school house and not reinforced outside of it, you will experience a frustrating amount of failure.

I know my experience is different from those at top performing schools as well as charter or private schools. I am not trying to generalize on the entire state of education in America. What I am saying is that in inner city/socio-economically disadvantaged schools, too often parental involvement is not what it needs to be to support scholarly behavior. Statistically, these schools are grouped in with higher performing schools with different demographics and parental involvement. A uniform test of teachers from both schools seems that it would be biased based upon the population demographic.

It may be a topic for another thread but ultimately, my district and others like it needs to be honest about education and not have a one size fits all curriculum for its students. As honorable a goal as it is to want to prepare everyone for college and/or a life as a professional, the reality of the situation is that this does not help all students. There are those who culturally do not make the connection between school now and success in life later through traditional classes.

How wonderful it would be to be able to teach a subject like British Literature or AP Calculus to students who not only were prepared for the content but actually desired those classes. Students who want it or who have historically performed poorly through grade 8 should have viable curriculum options to choose from in high school that may spark their effort and that they can finally excel in. With the absence of vocational options in my school system, I really wonder where my community will be in 8 years or so when all those who quit or barely tested out of a college prep curriculum with no real appetite for further schooling nor marketable job skills or trade to boot start taking en mass what they can't afford to buy.

Until we can police parenting and/or offer a variety of curriculum options that all students can be successful and become productive citizens, mandating evaluating teachers via standardized testing is a no no.

One thing about inner city/socio-economically disadvantaged schools I've noticed is they get poorer equipment, books etc then the socio-economically advantaged schools in the same city.

In the late 90's I came across an An encyclopedia that defined a astronaut as a fictional person (character) trained by a human spaceflight program to command, pilot, or serve as a crew member of a spacecraft. See also: Science Fiction.

The history books didn't even mention the Viet Nam war.

While at the same time the good schools had computers.

But it's the inner city/socio-economically disadvantaged kids fault that they don't learn.

I did buy a set of encyclopedia's for an inner city school. The kids never used them - they had been sent to a nicer school.

I'm looking at this from the other side. The parents I see are ones trying to get help for there kids while the schools say there is no problem.

Parents seeing there kids getting A's and B's in math while they can look at the homework and see every answer is wrong.

True it is sometimes the parents and/or kids fault but it sometimes the teacher and/or schools fault.

[page017]

I've known some of those lumps who had no intention of passing they should be where they can't be disruptive.

I've also known some of those lumps who knew they would never pass so they had stopped trying. Why try when you don't understand what going on in the classroom and no one will take the time to teach you? Your going to get a passing grade anything so why try?

Heres a story about the Army taking high school dropouts -

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/articles/20061201.aspx

Out of 5,900 dropouts they lost 6.2%, too bad public schools can't do as good.


There are certainly many species of lumps out there. All needing something different. You have those who have been blindly passed along, and don't understand the material, and finally find themselves in over their head. They believe they will continue to be passed along. They have gotten in over their head to the point where even if they started trying, they don't know enough of the material from earilier grades to be able to continue moving foward. They need to not be rewarded and passed on without an acceptable effort.

If they were trying at some point, but couldn't learn enough of the material fast enough, then a slower track is needed, or perhaps more time added to their studies either in school or out of school. My school has been pretty good about taking one difficult class, and spreading it out over two years for the slower students. It's a great idea. Also, students who struggle in english get a second, more basic, english class, to help them get up to speed while continuing their progress. Also a great idea.

Then you've got the kids who know enough information to go to the next grade, but do not take the time to demonstrate it. They rush through tests, don't do their homework, don't put their best effort into class assignments. I find these to be the most problematic from an educational standpoint. Making them repeat a grade makes them have to sit through all the material they know already. Pretty boring, a lot of them either will give up completly, and/or become disruptive. The positive is, you show them a consequence to their action. The negative is, keeping the kid in school an extra year costs money, and many students really don't learn their lesson that they caused themselves to be in this situation. Also, making a student repeat an entire 10 month course, for only having a 60% average seems excessive to me. It's a bit too much punishment I think. I would instead favor making the student complete some sort of summer assignment to get their grade up, or to get their attention before they have failed the year. I'd love to see a two hour study hall after school for students who habitually don't complete homework or prepare for tests and projects. Some parents might go along with it from an academic standpoint, and support the consequence, others would go along with it for two more hours of free babysitting, but I'm afraid a lot would be against it, or unwilling to stand up to their child and tell them they have to do it.

The species of lump I was referring to, is the 14 year old who has already made up their mind to dropout, but are legally unable to for another 2 years. Legally, they have to be in school, and the school will use some resources to make sure they are in their seat at the appointed time. But that's generally as far as they can go. I've had kids with a 5% average like this. Some are polite, some aren't. I did have one case where the student was on probation, and in order to not have to serve his jail time, not only did he have to be in school, but he had to have a 70% or higher in all his classes. That worked well. Sometimes I think if the student really is that committed to dropping out, they need to be allowed to. Why put the rest of the class through the disruptions? Sure there are alternative programs for students like that, but they are all at a greater cost. I'm not much of a fan on spending more money on a student who is unwilling to help themselves, while the motivated students get nothing extra. I would be interested to see HS dropouts be given an ultimatum that if they dropout, they do not get government support in the future. I've had the same kid in my class three years in a row while he was waiting to be old enough to dropout. I did try to talk to him, quite a bit. But he tells me about how both his parents dropped out, but they get free money for an apartment, free money for food, they get clothes from charity, so all their basic needs are met. If one of them picks up a part time job here and there, then that money can go exclusively towards entertainment and fun. Why work 5 times as hard just to have to pay for all that yourself and be in exactly the same position they are in now?

Schools respond to what they are measured upon. Whatever scores it is that gets put in the paper, those are the scores that schools work on bringing up. There are exit exams, so schools will work to make sure the students pass those. But the truth is, the minimum passing scores on those exams are very low, and many students are barely even meeting those requirements. Schools used to be judged on their 4th and 8th grade scores as well. So a terrible 4th grade student was moved to 5th, to avoid taking the exam again. Now exams are every year, so the students are dragged, often kicking and screaming through the material. The teachers are doing more and more of the work, as they test scores reflect upon them, and the students are given less time for discovery, and have less of a bearing on their own success. If students were allowed to succed or fail on their own merits, I think you actually might have a lot greater actual success, then the numbers we have now, indicating success. Success on a test by students, and actual achieving don't quite match up 100%. And now schools are judged by their dropout and 4 year graduation rates. So guess what, we spend a lot more time pandering to the students and their parents, then making sure they are willing and able to do actual work for themselves. Standards also drop, to make sure we do everything we can to get the kid through in 4 years.

I would be interested to see schools judged by area employers. If you hire a student out of HS, after one year you give them marks based on how ready they were for the job, both in terms of any skills HS graduates are expected to have, and on work ethic. That might make things change, at least it might make schools consider who they hand a diploma too. I went to my schools graduation this year, and I found myself getting a little bit stressed out, thinking about how many of our graduates were really not going to be able to either do real college level work, or get any sort of meaningful job. To me, the diploma is the schools stamp of approval, and should be given out more carefully. Or at least have multiple levels of diploma.

I did look at your numbers for the Army and dropouts, and at first I had one opinion, but then I realized something. You're only in the Army if you choose to go. So I would expect their dropout rate to be lower. Students do not get to choose if they go to school or not. The Army pays them directly, schools don't. Most teenagers cannot comprehend that the skills they learn when they are young, translate into actual dollars later on in life. Maybe if school wasn't mandatory or free, they would appreciate it more. That's what scares me the most, you've got other countries where they have a national goal of getting educated. Students actually wake up in the morning, looking to get ahead. The competion amongst most American students is just so low. The value placed on education in our everyday lives is just so much lower than these countries that are learning how to do our jobs right now.

[historynut]

There are certainly many species of lumps out there. All needing something different. You have those who have been blindly passed along, and don't understand the material, and finally find themselves in over their head. They believe they will continue to be passed along. They have gotten in over their head to the point where even if they started trying, they don't know enough of the material from earilier grades to be able to continue moving foward. They need to not be rewarded and passed on without an acceptable effort.

How are they being rewarded? A lot kept trying till they couldn't understand the material, and found themselves in over their head with no help coming.

If they were trying at some point, but couldn't learn enough of the material fast enough, then a slower track is needed, or perhaps more time added to their studies either in school or out of school.

Correct but all they get is a passing grade and sent to the next grade.


Then you've got the kids who know enough information to go to the next grade, but do not take the time to demonstrate it. They rush through tests, don't do their homework, don't put their best effort into class assignments. I find these to be the most problematic from an educational standpoint. Making them repeat a grade makes them have to sit through all the material they know already. Pretty boring, a lot of them either will give up completly, and/or become disruptive. The positive is, you show them a consequence to their action. The negative is, keeping the kid in school an extra year costs money, and many students really don't learn their lesson that they caused themselves to be in this situation. Also, making a student repeat an entire 10 month course, for only having a 60% average seems excessive to me. It's a bit too much punishment I think. I would instead favor making the student complete some sort of summer assignment to get their grade up, or to get their attention before they have failed the year.

I had a neice who's father was transfered to Mexico. If your in 10th grade but can do 12 grade math they give you 12th grade math. They do it the other way too if your in 12th grade but can do 10 grade math they give you 10th grade math. Kids can even go from 9th to 11th grade without being in 10th grade. Depends how hard they work.

If a kid needs to be held back there held back only for the time needed to catch up. It could be a month, it could be 6 months.

Why can't we do that here?

The species of lump I was referring to, is the 14 year old who has already made up their mind to dropout, but are legally unable to for another 2 years. Legally, they have to be in school, and the school will use some resources to make sure they are in their seat at the appointed time. But that's generally as far as they can go. I've had kids with a 5% average like this. Some are polite, some aren't. I did have one case where the student was on probation, and in order to not have to serve his jail time, not only did he have to be in school, but he had to have a 70% or higher in all his classes. That worked well. Sometimes I think if the student really is that committed to dropping out, they need to be allowed to. Why put the rest of the class through the disruptions? Sure there are alternative programs for students like that, but they are all at a greater cost.

I partly agree with you. If the kid doesn't try because they don't care it may be a good idea to let them go. But if the kid doesn't care because the school never tried who's at fault.


Schools respond to what they are measured upon. Whatever scores it is that gets put in the paper, those are the scores that schools work on bringing up. There are exit exams, so schools will work to make sure the students pass those. But the truth is, the minimum passing scores on those exams are very low, and many students are barely even meeting those requirements. Schools used to be judged on their 4th and 8th grade scores as well. So a terrible 4th grade student was moved to 5th, to avoid taking the exam again. Now exams are every year, so the students are dragged, often kicking and screaming through the material. The teachers are doing more and more of the work, as they test scores reflect upon them, and the students are given less time for discovery, and have less of a bearing on their own success. If students were allowed to succed or fail on their own merits, I think you actually might have a lot greater actual success, then the numbers we have now, indicating success. Success on a test by students, and actual achieving don't quite match up 100%. And now schools are judged by their dropout and 4 year graduation rates.

Judged based on test scores, dropout and graduation rates. Sounds like when I went to school. The schools I went to were a little different, class size 45 to 50 kids not 15 to 20. 13 to 17 different languages (we checked one time as part of Social Studies) spoken instand of 2 or 3. Two or more kids for book (but no homework on that book because it could not be taken home) instand of 1 kid for book .


I would be interested to see schools judged by area employers.

If you want to see what has changed check out an old cash register. First thing you will notice is that it doesn't tell how much money to give back. Employee's were expected to be able to do the math in there head. Basic math, candy bar costs 75 cents you are handed a dollar bill - how much do you give back? $1.00 - .75 = 25 cents. But stores found Employee's could not do the math so now you have fancy cash registers to do the math for you.


I did look at your numbers for the Army and dropouts, and at first I had one opinion, but then I realized something. You're only in the Army if you choose to go.

Correct but the kids joining the Army and getting a High School Diploma seem to be able to do it in about 6 months with a lot going on to college.

Why couldn't public schools teach those kids?

[RWReaganfan]

Heres a story about the Army taking high school dropouts -

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/articles/20061201.aspx

Out of 5,900 dropouts they lost 6.2%, too bad public schools can't do as good.

That was a 6-month attrition rate. My son did not even get to his first assignment in the Army until he was in over 6 months. My daughter-in-law NEVER made it to her first duty station as she was medically discharged after 9 months after suffering a severe back injury.

The statistic is meaningless. Look at those who finish their first enlistment and then see how it compares. You also have to look at why they were lost from the Army. Having a HS diploma does not prevenbt soemone from abusing drugs or punching their drill sergeant.

Since the majority of that 5900 had a GED, they are high school graduates as far as the Army is concerned. They obviously learned SOMETHING while in school.

Also, is is not possible to drop out of private school?

[RWReaganfan]

Correct but the kids joining the Army and getting a High School Diploma seem to be able to do it in about 6 months with a lot going on to college.

Why couldn't public schools teach those kids?

I'll give the EXACT reason. In the Army, if you don't do as you are told you get PUNISHED! That is something the Army can do and the public schools cannot.

I am a former Navy officer and teach middle school. You do not know the number of times I have wished that I could assign "extra duty" to kids for missing their homework. How about you are 30 seconds late for class - give me 30 pushups! Food fight in the cafeteria? Confinement for three days on bread and water. Show up out of the school uniform? Restriction for 30 days. Fighting? How about a fine of half a months pay for two months?

Also, the Army is not teaching World History and English Literature and they don't give a rat's rectum about your learning styles either. You either get it right or there will be pain.

[The Gooch]

One thing about inner city/socio-economically disadvantaged schools I've noticed is they get poorer equipment, books etc then the socio-economically advantaged schools in the same city.

In the late 90's I came across an An encyclopedia that defined a astronaut as a fictional person (character) trained by a human spaceflight program to command, pilot, or serve as a crew member of a spacecraft. See also: Science Fiction.

The history books didn't even mention the Viet Nam war.

While at the same time the good schools had computers.

But it's the inner city/socio-economically disadvantaged kids fault that they don't learn.

I did buy a set of encyclopedia's for an inner city school. The kids never used them - they had been sent to a nicer school.

I'm looking at this from the other side. The parents I see are ones trying to get help for there kids while the schools say there is no problem.

Parents seeing there kids getting A's and B's in math while they can look at the homework and see every answer is wrong.

True it is sometimes the parents and/or kids fault but it sometimes the teacher and/or schools fault.

I will respond to your points in order:

Paragraph 1- I don't know if you are aware of the fact that public funding for school systems is a job department in itself which is heavily scrutinized in an attempt to curb mis-management. In addition, school materials is a big business which is gone about mainly on a district-wide scale. That means interdistrict schools in areas with more property tax revenue are receiving the same books, computers and resource material as those schools at the lower end of the receipt spectrum. The discrepencies generally can be seen in the form of how these same materials are treated in the different types of school. Their varying condition can be due to my previously mentioned assumption that socio-economic status generally plays a part on a families perception of being a scholar. Essentially, I am attempting to correct you on your statement that semi-consumable resources are held back from one demographic as opposed to the other. This would be a law suit waiting to happen.

"But it's the inner city/socio-economically disadvantaged kids fault that they don't learn."

This should not garner a response because it does not follow any logical structure, nor as an opinion is it qualified. However, I will bite. You go on to say you purchased a set of encyclopedias that were not used. If this was before the adaptation of online resources, that is a shame. Even then, more factors are at play such as that particular school not planning lessons around your set of books, grade level of assignments demanding more rigorous references than can be found in an encyclopedia, etc. Regardless, you donated something and that is commendable. If you choose to do something like that again, perhaps addressing the intended audience on how they could show gratitude by utilizing the resource may be in order. I am not excusing poor scholarship but I see students every day who are allowed to travel to and from school with some of the nicest clothes, latest cell phones and mp3 players but no books. That to me is a reflection of the importance of academics in the home.

Paragraphs 7, 8 and 9- There are some wonderful parents out there who genuinely want the best for their students. Some know how to ensure this in their homes, some speak up for advice when they feel they need it. I also see too many dropping their kids off repeatedly late rather than put them on the bus which will arrive on time, sans books, homework or the right attitude. Conversely, my district, anyone with a television and the federal government knows that our educational system is in a crisis. Show me a teacher who says there is no problem and I may think you both are lying. As a math teacher with a district-wide grading policy that exams quizzes and tests count 40% of the grade, I will give credit for effort outside of my class to encourage more effort in class. That credit that I give, and I give no illusions to all my students and the parents I talk to, does nothing to ensure success in class. Homework and classwork in my opinion is an opportunity for all parties involved to gauge what is learned vs. what has not been learned in order to bolster what weaknesses are evident. I can show you the error of your ways and the correct way to do it in the future. Unfortunately, developing good math skills for most of us requires a moderate amount of practice. More than can be given in an instructional period of 60-90 minutes of consistently being exposed to new concepts. It is my dream that parents, pundits and evaluators take this into account before pointing the finger at those who's workload is ever increasing, pay is stagnant or declining and generally are one of the most under-appreciated group of workers in this society. It takes a village to raise a child.

[historynut]

I will respond to your points in order:

Paragraph 1- I don't know if you are aware of the fact that public funding for school systems is a job department in itself which is heavily scrutinized in an attempt to curb mis-management. In addition, school materials is a big business which is gone about mainly on a district-wide scale. That means interdistrict schools in areas with more property tax revenue are receiving the same books, computers and resource material as those schools at the lower end of the receipt spectrum. The discrepencies generally can be seen in the form of how these same materials are treated in the different types of school. Their varying condition can be due to my previously mentioned assumption that socio-economic status generally plays a part on a families perception of being a scholar. Essentially, I am attempting to correct you on your statement that semi-consumable resources are held back from one demographic as opposed to the other. This would be a law suit waiting to happen.

"But it's the inner city/socio-economically disadvantaged kids fault that they don't learn."

This should not garner a response because it does not follow any logical structure, nor as an opinion is it qualified. However, I will bite. You go on to say you purchased a set of encyclopedias that were not used. If this was before the adaptation of online resources, that is a shame. Even then, more factors are at play such as that particular school not planning lessons around your set of books, grade level of assignments demanding more rigorous references than can be found in an encyclopedia, etc. Regardless, you donated something and that is commendable. If you choose to do something like that again, perhaps addressing the intended audience on how they could show gratitude by utilizing the resource may be in order. I am not excusing poor scholarship but I see students every day who are allowed to travel to and from school with some of the nicest clothes, latest cell phones and mp3 players but no books. That to me is a reflection of the importance of academics in the home.

Paragraphs 7, 8 and 9- There are some wonderful parents out there who genuinely want the best for their students. Some know how to ensure this in their homes, some speak up for advice when they feel they need it. I also see too many dropping their kids off repeatedly late rather than put them on the bus which will arrive on time, sans books, homework or the right attitude. Conversely, my district, anyone with a television and the federal government knows that our educational system is in a crisis. Show me a teacher who says there is no problem and I may think you both are lying. As a math teacher with a district-wide grading policy that exams quizzes and tests count 40% of the grade, I will give credit for effort outside of my class to encourage more effort in class. That credit that I give, and I give no illusions to all my students and the parents I talk to, does nothing to ensure success in class. Homework and classwork in my opinion is an opportunity for all parties involved to gauge what is learned vs. what has not been learned in order to bolster what weaknesses are evident. I can show you the error of your ways and the correct way to do it in the future. Unfortunately, developing good math skills for most of us requires a moderate amount of practice. More than can be given in an instructional period of 60-90 minutes of consistently being exposed to new concepts. It is my dream that parents, pundits and evaluators take this into account before pointing the finger at those who's workload is ever increasing, pay is stagnant or declining and generally are one of the most under-appreciated group of workers in this society. It takes a village to raise a child.

That means interdistrict schools in areas with more property tax revenue are receiving the same books, computers and resource material as those schools at the lower end of the receipt spectrum.

All schools in the same district should get the same books etc. No for some reason it doesn't happen.

The discrepencies generally can be seen in the form of how these same materials are treated in the different types of school.

Correct inter-city schools take better care of there books.

You go on to say you purchased a set of encyclopedias that were not used.

They were used by the school then the school district sent them to another school.

If you choose to do something like that again, perhaps addressing the intended audience on how they could show gratitude by utilizing the resource may be in order.

There were utilizing the resource till it was taken away from them.

Unfortunately, developing good math skills for most of us requires a moderate amount of practice. More than can be given in an instructional period of 60-90 minutes of consistently being exposed to new concepts.

Correct they is why I helped tutor kids. Does upset you when after taking hours to help and checking to see if all the answers are correct the teachers marks them wrong.

It is my dream that parents, pundits and evaluators take this into account before pointing the finger at those who's workload is ever increasing, pay is stagnant or declining and generally are one of the most under-appreciated group of workers in this society.

I do appreciate good teachers. Problem is year after year kids learn less. All the problems they have now we had when I went to school.

My problem is that I can't understand why they were able to teach the kids then but they can't teach them now.

By the way my pay is half of what it used to be so I understand what it feels like to be underpaid.

[rich7837]

Gooch....I've been there. The kids that have a strong push from the parents will always outperform the kid's that don't have that level of support. That is the central problem with education.

It's not about books, supplies, physical location, or ability levels. It's about the 45% of kids that better not come home with a C or a D on their grades. The other 55% of parents don't even show up for parent-teacher confrences.

Surprise, surprise! The same 55% produce the lumps described in an earlier ribbon!

[Apatriot]

I've known some of those lumps who had no intention of passing they should be where they can't be disruptive.

I've also known some of those lumps who knew they would never pass so they had stopped trying. Why try when you don't understand what going on in the classroom and no one will take the time to teach you? Your going to get a passing grade anything so why try?

Heres a story about the Army taking high school dropouts -

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/articles/20061201.aspx

Out of 5,900 dropouts they lost 6.2%, too bad public schools can't do as good.
The Army gets them for 24 hrs a day, and can control every aspect of their lives. The school doesn't have that ability.

[Apatriot]

One thing about inner city/socio-economically disadvantaged schools I've noticed is they get poorer equipment, books etc then the socio-economically advantaged schools in the same city.

Locally, it's the opposite. The poorer schools have the advantage of all of the Title I money (Federal money for schools with over 50% free and reduced lunch population). The regular schools scrape by.

[historynut]

The Army gets them for 24 hrs a day, and can control every aspect of their lives. The school doesn't have that ability.

The way they were doing it was they would sign up for delayed entry. Then mostly on there own they would take the GED class’s. If they did not get there GED they would not get in.

[jimjames418]

The way they were doing it was they would sign up for delayed entry. Then mostly on there own they would take the GED class’s. If they did not get there GED they would not get in.
Yeah, but they have a reruiter who acts as a parent in that case. Who makes sure they study and attend class and will explain anything they don't understand. Becasue he/she doesn't get credit for the body until they actually take the oath.

[historynut]

Yeah, but they have a reruiter who acts as a parent in that case. Who makes sure they study and attend class and will explain anything they don't understand. Becasue he/she doesn't get credit for the body until they actually take the oath.

Correct but the Recruiter acts as a parent to 20 - 30 Recruits. It's the Recruits doing most of the work with help from the teacher of the GED class. Just like in high school if they don't work they don't pass.

[The Heartbreaker]

[I'll give the EXACT reason. In the Army, if you don't do as you are told you get PUNISHED! That is something the Army can do and the public schools cannot.

I went from the Army to teaching and you are 100% right. Also kids are expected to be rewarded for doing what they are supposed to do.

[mawst95]

Obama chides California for not using test scores to evaluate teachers (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-education25-2009jul25,0,4550811.story)

No matter how good a teacher is, a student who does not want to learn and does not have support at home for education, will always do poorly on tests. Using those test results to evaluate a teacher is wrong, very wrong. IMHO anyway.

I've heard the Sec of Education speak and what he's said is that right now, teacher performance data are separated from student performance data. So how then do you evaluate teachers? Obviously, like anyone that works for someone, there needs to be evaluation--who's doing well, who's doing poorly and how to we increase numbers of the former and lower numbers of the latter. What he's also talked about is bringing teachers and their unions into the conversation so that the evaluations are done right, with teacher input, rather than this be an adversarial system.

[jimjames418]

I've heard the Sec of Education speak and what he's said is that right now, teacher performance data are separated from student performance data. So how then do you evaluate teachers? Obviously, like anyone that works for someone, there needs to be evaluation--who's doing well, who's doing poorly and how to we increase numbers of the former and lower numbers of the latter. What he's also talked about is bringing teachers and their unions into the conversation so that the evaluations are done right, with teacher input, rather than this be an adversarial system.
Any time you have one professional evaluate another professional there will be adversarial system. I have never seen two professionals agree on anything, ever on what to have for lunch. ;)

Originally Posted by jimjames418 http://forums.hannity.com/firestorm/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?p=58364411#post58364411)
The only way this would work is if there was a pre-test and a post-test. Test the students knowledge prior to the class and test the students knowledge after the class. But with multiple teachers in most situtations that would be impossible to determine which teacher actually had an impact. It MIGHT work in K-5 grades, but I doubt it would even work there.

[bitterclinger84]

Obama chides California for not using test scores to evaluate teachers (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-obama-education25-2009jul25,0,4550811.story)

No matter how good a teacher is, a student who does not want to learn and does not have support at home for education, will always do poorly on tests. Using those test results to evaluate a teacher is wrong, very wrong. IMHO anyway.

I agree. My best friend taught high school in a very remote area of WV. Many of the kids were just passing time until they could drop out, get their GED, etc. because they just planned on working the family farm for the rest of their lives. So they couldn't care less about state tests, and that reflects poorly on the teachers.

[historynut]

I agree. My best friend taught high school in a very remote area of WV. Many of the kids were just passing time until they could drop out, get their GED, etc. because they just planned on working the family farm for the rest of their lives. So they couldn't care less about state tests, and that reflects poorly on the teachers.

I agree that if kids do not want to learn it's going to be hard to teach them.

But I've been on the other end, helping kids at church on Saturday.

I'm not a teacher and never have been a teacher but I and other volunteers were able to teach what some teacher's did not seem able to.

If a kid learns more from me in a 1 1/2 hours on Saturday then they learn all week there is a problem.

When the school and the teachers union will not admit there is a problem there is a problem.

I've had kids show up on Saturday's seeing if they could get help, after finding that the other volunteers and I could help they would ask there parents if they could come all the time.

Yes the lazy kids that did not want to learn were looking for places that would teach them.

To bad they could not find anyone at there school that would teach them.

[jimjames418]

When the school and the teachers union will not admit there is a problem there is a problem.

I've had kids show up on Saturday's seeing if they could get help, after finding that the other volunteers and I could help they would ask there parents if they could come all the time.

Yes the lazy kids that did not want to learn were looking for places that would teach them.

To bad they could not find anyone at there school that would teach them.
The problem is that the current crop of teachers do not know how to make their subjects interesting. Get a kid interested in something and there is no way you can keep him from learning.

[historynut]

The problem is that the current crop of teachers do not know how to make their subjects interesting. Get a kid interested in something and there is no way you can keep him from learning.

When your homework is to do questions 6 thru 8 on chap. 10 when chap. 10 only has 4 questions at the end it does make your homework interesting.

When everyone gets an "F" for not turning there homework in that's interesting too.

But the teacher's always right and the school will stand behind them.

[Apatriot]

When your homework is to do questions 6 thru 8 on chap. 10 when chap. 10 only has 4 questions at the end it does make your homework interesting.

When everyone gets an "F" for not turning there homework in that's interesting too.

But the teacher's always right and the school will stand behind them.

Actually, the opposite is true. Most principals back down to parental pressure, and throw the teachers to the wolves. They would rather have a mad employee than a mad parent complaining to the board.

[donesprague]

No matter how good a teacher is, a student who does not want to learn and does not have support at home for education, will always do poorly on tests. Using those test results to evaluate a teacher is wrong, very wrong. IMHO anyway.

There are many obstacles between teachers and students. Those obstacles make it very difficult to measure a teaches effectiveness. An analogy is a farmer and his crop. There are obstacles that a farmer must overcome to deliver a good crop. Soil type is analogous to a students environmental and genetic foundation. Weeds and pest infestation are obstacle that are analogous to parent and government intrusion. A farmer tests the soil. That enables the farmer determine the best crop and best soil modification techniques. Farmers use various tools to reduce or prevent infestation of weeds or other pests. Suppose a farmer had the same restrictions that teachers face. The farmer would have a field and some seeds. They couldn’t clear the field of trees and brush. They couldn’t plow to remove weeds and soften the ground to accept seeds. They couldn’t user fertilizer and couldn’t prevent weed or pest infestation. They would only be allowed to toss the seeds and hope they grow. They wouldn’t be able to get a really good crop.

In the past, teachers were able to discipline students. They were even able to remove disruptive students who were sent to special class rooms. Good or borderline students weren’t pulled down by disruptive students. Parents supported discipline instead of preventing it. Competition for grades was recognized as preparation for the real world.

Unless or until discipline is returned to the class room, it will be very difficult to measure a teachers performance as an educator instead of a class room monitor.

[historynut]

Actually, the opposite is true. Most principals back down to parental pressure, and throw the teachers to the wolves. They would rather have a mad employee than a mad parent complaining to the board.

Depends on the location.

In a good school in a nice (upper middle class, lots of voters) area yes.

In a poor school in a lower middle class or poor (few voters) area good luck. Kind of a carch-22. You don't get listened to because few people vote but few people vote because they never get listened to.

[Apatriot]

Depends on the location.

In a good school in a nice (upper middle class, lots of voters) area yes.

In a poor school in a lower middle class or poor (few voters) area good luck. Kind of a carch-22. You don't get listened to because few people vote but few people vote because they never get listened to.


Having taught in such a school (poor school, lower SES), I totally disagree. If anything, principals in schools with rich parents are more apt to hold their ground.