Sam's Club Destroys 1500 yr old Indian Mound

[HeyJude]

I heard this on the news today, and it made my blood boil.
What the HELL is wrong with this country, that a discount store is MORE important than an ancient Indian Mound ??

I promise you, I will NEVER shop at a Sam's Club, never again.

http://www.reznetnews.org/article/goodbye-indian-mounds-hello-sam-s-club-36320

http://digg.com/arts_culture/Destroying_A_1500Year_Old_Indian_Mound_To_Build_a_ Sam_s_Club

http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2009/07/destroying-a-1500yearold-indian-mound-to-build-a-sams-club.html

[angelicmadrigal]

someone's gonna get haunted.....

[BillBrown]

If it was 1500 years old, maybe it was time for it to go.

[HeyJude]

If it was 1500 years old, maybe it was time for it to go.

The site very possibly contains human remains.

[HeyJude]

OXFORD, Ala. (AP)—City officials have ignored another protest over the city's decision to destroy a stone mound on a hill behind the Oxford Exchange created by American Indians 1,500 years ago.
Tony Castaneda, of Anniston, and Sharon Jackson, of Fruithurst, who say they are Indian elders, presented Mayor Leon Smith with a petition Monday containing more than 600 signatures of people opposed to the site's destruction. The Anniston Star reported Tuesday Smith became agitated when the two arrived at City Hall, took the petition and went back inside.
Castaneda and Jackson collected more signatures at City Hall that evening. The state Historical Commission says the mound is the largest of its kind in Alabama. The city paid to have part of the hill taken down for fill at a Sam's Club.

[snagswolf]

That's a big ass pile of dirt.

Gotta admire the fact that humans built it without any type of power equipment.

[Vaard]

what was the return on investment of the mound?

[HeyJude]

If no one here cares about ancient Indian Mounds, that says a lot about where our priorities are in this country. If we don't embrace our past, if we don't honor those that came before us, if we have no respect for the preservation of our history, if it can all become naught for the sake of a discount store, then we have problems much much deeper than anything going on in DC.

There are some things that are worth more than money, worth more than fame, worth more than what we can get on sale at a cheaper price.

The preservation of American History comes before a BOGO at Sam's Club.

Your Mileage May Vary.

[HeyJude]

That's a big ass pile of dirt.

Gotta admire the fact that humans built it without any type of power equipment.

Yes, it's really quite amazing.

1,500 yrs old, think about it, that's 500 yrs short of the birth of Jesus.
Just sayin', it's ANCIENT.
And taken down for a discount store ?? It blows my mind.

[MrShotShot]

If it was that significant, I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't have already been studied and protected. Alabama has done a good job of conserving many mound sites around the state over the years.

[BillBrown]

If no one here cares about ancient Indian Mounds, that says a lot about where our priorities are in this country. If we don't embrace our past, if we don't honor those that came before us, if we have no respect for the preservation of our history, if it can all become naught for the sake of a discount store, then we have problems much much deeper than anything going on in DC.

There are some things that are worth more than money, worth more than fame, worth more than what we can get on sale at a cheaper price.

The preservation of American History comes before a BOGO at Sam's Club.

Your Mileage May Vary.

Your house sets on dirt 6 billion years old.
What's under it?
History.
Look at what you've defaced.

[HeyJude]

what was the return on investment of the mound?


I have no idea, none at all.

And it makes no difference, really, the mound is gone. It was destroyed today.

[HeyJude]

If it was that significant, I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't have already been studied and protected. Alabama has done a good job of conserving many mound sites around the state over the years.

I thought so too, but this says otherwise:


The state Historical Commission says the mound is the largest of its kind in Alabama.

[HeyJude]

Your house sets on dirt 6 billion years old.
What's under it?
History.
Look at what you've defaced.


If you don't care about history, that's fine, most folks don't.
But I do, very much, especially the preservation of ancient sites.
And the very thought that all this was destroyed for a discount store, gives weight to your viewpoint, that no one really cares about the History of America.

[JohnRandolph]

If its just a mound, with nothing inside, no harm, no foul. I'm not gonna be too excited.
My problem is that the city is tearing up the mound, to provide dirt for fill so that a multi-million dollar company can build an outlet there. Taxpayers gettin screwed again.

[notluzn]

O well.. Not like a mound had anything good or it would have been saved.

[notluzn]

Laughable!If you don't care about history, that's fine, most folks don't.
But I do, very much, especially the preservation of ancient sites.
And the very thought that all this was destroyed for a discount store, gives weight to your viewpoint, that no one really cares about the History of America.

[Buschb]

someone's gonna get haunted.....

lolllllll

[CountryGirl]

I'm a big history buff but I think the person[s] to blame here would be the city/county that approved building on that site in the first place. They certainly had a greater knowledge of the importance of the location and a greater interest in what was done with that property. They sold out.

[jimjames418]

How does anyone know that it is/or was an Indian Mound? It could have just been a natural hill which the Indians used to send smoke signals.

[BillBrown]

How does anyone know that it is/or was an Indian Mound? It could have just been a natural hill which the Indians used to send smoke signals.

Most important of all; why would anyone care?

[jeepers]

If you don't care about history, that's fine, most folks don't.
But I do, very much, especially the preservation of ancient sites.
And the very thought that all this was destroyed for a discount store, gives weight to your viewpoint, that no one really cares about the History of America.

I have to tell you that my first thought was "sort of like the mention of the word 'God' on national monuments...That cross on the hill in Los Angeles..."

Not trying to invoke religion, I just think that it's interesting what some people value as history and what they do not value, which is also history.

Btw, I'm totally behind having this be on the national register, which btw, the city totally ****ed up by not having done this already. Or those who have a vested interest in that community, doing it on a private level.

I'm also behind leaving our monuments the way that they are.

I'm pretty global in that way.

[Pudge]

someone's gonna get haunted.....

Didn't they watch Poltergeist?

[Pudge]

I have to tell you that my first thought was "sort of like the mention of the word 'God' on national monuments...That cross on the hill in Los Angeles..."

Not trying to invoke religion, I just think that it's interesting what some people value as history and what they do not value, which is also history.

This would be more akin to having a big-box store go in over a local cemetery, rather than a city removing a religious monument on public land. And, for the record, the cross in L.A. was on the city seal, the giant cross on the hill was in San Diego- and removing them (or even attempting to do so) was just spiteful and absurd.

[CID_0687]

I'm a big history buff but I think the person[s] to blame here would be the city/county that approved building on that site in the first place. They certainly had a greater knowledge of the importance of the location and a greater interest in what was done with that property. They sold out.
There's one person to blame. And it's that bastard of a mayor Leon Smith. This is happening in my hometown. I live right outside of the Oxford/Anniston area. Mayor Leon has done a lot of good for the economy of Oxford, I'll give him that. I-20 runs through Oxford and he's help to capitalize on that. But it's turned into nothing but an interstate town. But this has all also been for his personal gain as he owned/owns much of the land in Oxford. The fact that a historical site would be torn down for the sake of the almighty Wally World doesn't surprise me...but it's a damn shame. I'm all for making a buck, but there are other spots in town that they could build the Sam's Club on. Several vacant buildings that could be torn down to make a place for it.

There's no need to destruct something like this...but I've got a feeling, knowing where it is, that Mayor Leon himself owns the land.

[King Cantona]

If no one here cares about ancient Indian Mounds, that says a lot about where our priorities are in this country. If we don't embrace our past, if we don't honor those that came before us, if we have no respect for the preservation of our history, if it can all become naught for the sake of a discount store, then we have problems much much deeper than anything going on in DC.

There are some things that are worth more than money, worth more than fame, worth more than what we can get on sale at a cheaper price.

The preservation of American History comes before a BOGO at Sam's Club.

Your Mileage May Vary.


I'd hate to think that some Americans think history only started in 1542 and everything before then can be discarded...

[EnchantedFrog]

Well, the Eastern Band of Cherokees defaced the beautiful Smoky Mountains by putting in a huge casino/hotel.
Much more damage than moving a plain pile of dirt, and much less useful to humankind than a Sam's Club.

[LouC]

I heard this on the news today, and it made my blood boil.
What the HELL is wrong with this country, that a discount store is MORE important than an ancient Indian Mound ??

I promise you, I will NEVER shop at a Sam's Club, never again.

http://www.reznetnews.org/article/goodbye-indian-mounds-hello-sam-s-club-36320

http://digg.com/arts_culture/Destroying_A_1500Year_Old_Indian_Mound_To_Build_a_ Sam_s_Club

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6064997

http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2009/07/destroying-a-1500yearold-indian-mound-to-build-a-sams-club.html

The thread title is not accurate.

Sam's Club did not destroy the mound.

Read about this the other day.

[LouC]

If it was that significant, I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't have already been studied and protected. Alabama has done a good job of conserving many mound sites around the state over the years.

The mound was already investigated.

[LouC]

Wal Mart Corporation Is The Devil

That folks is what is behind this OMG a pile of dirt was leveled story.

[LouC]

...I promise you, I will NEVER shop at a Sam's Club, never again...

Good.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

I promise you, I will NEVER shop at a Sam's Club, never again.

Same. Or Walmart.

As far as those who don't want to place any blame on the store, you can't tell me they didn't know of this issue.

*******s.

[waynevan]

If it was 1500 years old, maybe it was time for it to go.

Perhaps you should be venting your anger at the city of Oxford who approved it.........

[LouC]

Same. Or Walmart.

As far as those who don't want to place any blame on the store, you can't tell me they didn't know of this issue.

*******s.

Morning Emma :hug:

They were aware of it, they are not involved in it, the mound was investigated less than half dozen shards of supposed Indian pottery were found, no signs of burial, no signs of any reason to not make use of the dirt.

There was no interest in the place until "evil" Sam's Club got interested in the nearby location.

No one of the OMG it is sacred ground crew cared before that enough to do anything about the mound.

I am tired of people with an anti Wal Mart agenda using BS like this to try and stop their building stores.

They tried it here and almost cost us the new Wal Mart that just opened that is a definite BOON to our community.

[Hereintheusa]

I am sure if Wal-Mart had tried to take down a cross to make way for a story the religious right on this forum would have been foaming at the mouth.

Wal-Mart sucks, yes I shop there and I am a hypocrite because they are the cheapest. I find the staff rude, lazy and mainly made up of people who look nothing like the so called staff that appear in their commercials.

Interesting to note how many people on this forum defend Wal-Mart then in another thread pontificate about how evil China is and how we should always buy American.

[King Cantona]

I am tired of people with an anti Wal Mart agenda using BS like this to try and stop their building stores.

I bought a pair of shoes from WalMart less than a year ago and I already need a new pair, I will use WalMart always when in the US because they're cheap....

I shall pay more than the $6 I payed last time...;)...

I can't help being cheap, I just know the value of a dollar.....

[EnchantedFrog]

Typical, but fictional, story of how progressive government operates:

I was going to remove some stones in my garden to make a mound for planting some squash, but the government agricultural agent came by, looked at the stones and told me that an Indian might have placed the stones there a thousand years ago so I couldn't remove them until they investigated.

The Department Of Agriculture assigned a staff of 10 to coordinate the investigation with the Department of the Interior, who sent 5 archaeologists to the site. Their motor home was placed in the area where the corn was previously planted. Excavations were made in the beans and okra, and a piece of fractured flint was discovered, that the lead archaeologist said "might possibly be an arrowhead."

With this new finding, a 40-ft tractor trailer was brought in and placed where the turnips used to be. This trailer had sophisticated microscopes and other analytical equipment costing millions of dollars. After months of investigation, they determined that the artifact was, indeed, a piece of flint. We had to abandon any hopes of a harvest that year because of all the activity.

He then said that the agency had arranged a 15 million dollar grant to the college so that this historic site could be investigated further. The following summer, the professor brought his fleet of grad students in, and that did away with the herb garden I had put in because the professor didn't want to park his Mercedes near the excavation site. The watermelon had to go also, because that was where they placed the catering tents.

After the 15 million grant was exhausted, a detailed report was released. After painstaking research they had determined that the piece of flint was from a discarded Bic lighter. As they drove off from the pockmarked and rutted field of destruction, I was advised that I now had permission to plant my squash.

[snagswolf]

I bought a pair of shoes from WalMart less than a year ago and I already need a new pair, I will use WalMart always when in the US because they're cheap....

I shall pay more than the $6 I payed last time...;)...

I can't help being cheap, I just know the value of a dollar.....
I'm cheap with my shoes too. But I've discovered that spending $10 on a cheap pair isn't cost effective because, as you point out, they go to crap very quickly.

But I'll never pay over $30 for shoes, so I just wait until the good ones go on sale in the clearance section. (Kohls seems pretty good at that.)

[snagswolf]

Wal-Mart sucks, yes I shop there and I am a hypocrite because they are the cheapest. I find the staff rude, lazy and mainly made up of people who look nothing like the so called staff that appear in their commercials.
I find the people who work at my local Walmarts are cheerful and helpful.

Maybe it's not a 'Walmart' thing, but instead a 'where I live' thing?

Interesting to note how many people on this forum defend Wal-Mart then in another thread pontificate about how evil China is and how we should always buy American.
Most of the things I buy at Walmart are the same things in other stores: Kelloggs cereal, lunchmeat, fruit and vegetables, Black & Decker tools, DVDs, etc.

[LouC]

I am sure if Wal-Mart had tried to take down a cross to make way for a story the religious right on this forum would have been foaming at the mouth.

I am not the religious right but it depends on the individual case.

Wal-Mart sucks, yes I shop there and I am a hypocrite because they are the cheapest.

They are just a retailer trying to make a profit.

I find the staff rude, lazy and mainly made up of people who look nothing like the so called staff that appear in their commercials.

:rolleyes:

I have never met a rude staff member in Wal Mart, some that seemed a little indifferent which usually were the very young type new hires, but most employees are happy to help and often go the extra step to serve me their customer.

Lazy?

I can attest to encountering mouth breathers that were obviously hired as holiday staff that had a most unbecoming lackadaisical manner but I can't say that lazy is a trait I have witnessed among regular staff.

The people working in Wal Mart oddly look like people I see shopping in Wal Mart, you know they look like "real" people, they look like neighbors, friends, family.

Interesting to note how many people on this forum defend Wal-Mart then in another thread pontificate about how evil China is and how we should always buy American.

I am not one of those people.

I am a Wal Mart customer and happy to say so.

[roger teekell]

If the dirt was being used as fill for an abortion clinic..Would the people at DU be so upset??

Just askin'.

[sgtmac_46]

If no one here cares about ancient Indian Mounds, that says a lot about where our priorities are in this country. If we don't embrace our past, if we don't honor those that came before us, if we have no respect for the preservation of our history, if it can all become naught for the sake of a discount store, then we have problems much much deeper than anything going on in DC.

There are some things that are worth more than money, worth more than fame, worth more than what we can get on sale at a cheaper price.

The preservation of American History comes before a BOGO at Sam's Club.

Your Mileage May Vary.

And the Drama Queen award goes TO..........

[sgtmac_46]

If the dirt was being used as fill for an abortion clinic..Would the people at DU be so upset??

Just askin'.

:))

It's hard to tell what the folk at Dumbass Underground would be upset at or not......rationality doesn't apply.

[angelicmadrigal]

Didn't they watch Poltergeist?

I know I'd go to a huanted Sam's Club for sure.

[jimjames418]

I'm cheap with my shoes too. But I've discovered that spending $10 on a cheap pair isn't cost effective because, as you point out, they go to crap very quickly.

But I'll never pay over $30 for shoes, so I just wait until the good ones go on sale in the clearance section. (Kohls seems pretty good at that.)
Back in 1961 I paid $400 for five pair of shoes. I wear them every day and I am still wearing them. Just new soles and heels are all they ever need.

I learned in the Marine Corps that if you take care of your feet, they will take care of you. And part of that "taking care" is wearing shoes that fit and taking care of the shoes.

[roger teekell]

:))

It's hard to tell what the folk at Dumbass Underground would be upset at or not......rationality doesn't apply.

They had 1500 years to declare this sight historic and off limits to developement..

If they didn't do it in that amount of time??

Maybe it's just not THAT Historic.

[jimjames418]

I still want to see the evidence that it is, in fact, an Indian Mound and how they determined it to be 1,500 years old. Heck there is a hill just down the road that I'll bet is older than that. :rolleyes:

[jeepers]

This would be more akin to having a big-box store go in over a local cemetery, rather than a city removing a religious monument on public land. And, for the record, the cross in L.A. was on the city seal, the giant cross on the hill was in San Diego- and removing them (or even attempting to do so) was just spiteful and absurd.


Pudge, I was painting with a pretty broad brush.

Local cemetary? I'd say one and a half thousand years and that there are no bodies, no people prior who were interested in any way, makes it sort of legend, not where your great grandmother is. More like 'this is where someone might have been dead, was, a long time ago'. That ain't 'local'. If you want to put it another way, there is no connection to the present tribe and the previous one. Not if you're only talking about a couple of shards of pottery. I'd have to have a lot more information than that to get REALLY romantic about it.

That being said, I can still absolutely and completely get behind preserving the site just on the idea that something could be there, or that a group would be willing to take it on to preserve it, that there is more to the history of the place AND the fact that this isn't like the town doesn't have other options for Costco to locate to.

The other stuff? Yeah, that microscopic cross on the seal of Los Angeles certainly was threatening ...to absolutely no one but atheists with magnifying glasses and a chip on their shoulder that were looking for a lawsuit to prove a point, and they went for that with gusto. The big cross? I watched that and thought "Taliban". And it was on private property. That was totally about spite. I think Taliban often. Ten commandments in court houses, that sort of thing.

Spiteful and absurd pretty much covers it. This is where I ask myself if people truly can be that craven and still think that they're educated, and know better than others? Why yes, they certainly can. As long as your a Sneetch and you think that the star on your belly gives you permission to be a total ******* to your community, these things will happen.

I do think that there is a connection in this. It's about what people value and how that is played out. One man's history is another man's 'it doesn't matter to me so screw you'.

I made my post only to point out that there is hypocrisy and indeed, absurdity in any story like this. Personally, I think that all historical sites and records shoudl be perserved IF THEY CAN BE. I think with the mound issue, a pile of dirt can be a huge deal if you look at it in the right way. I think that county seals matter on a historical level. I think that words carved into a wall, shoudn't be torn down. I think that Buddhist statues shoudln't be blown up.

History is just the story of someone that happened before today. It's valuable, it's important and it needs caretakers. If no one wanted to take on the mound or is willing to do it, that is a problem. You cannot yell 'this is wrong' but then ignore what needs to be done. In other words, iff the locals have an issue with this, then THEY need to carry the responsibilty for not only bitching about it, but doing something about it. Do the work to get it declared a historical landmark and solicit local folks for funds to preserve it.

This reminds me of a local story here that I heard on the news some months back. There is some mound in the area that is up for sale on land and no one is buying. No one cared (at least at the time, don't know the postscript to the story) enough to buy it, the seller is in a bind... In this day and age, who has the extra cash? Meanwhile the owner has to pay for undeveloped and unable to develop, land.

No local hoo haa. The media was actually pointing out that there was no interest in it. I would bet hat there still isnt' interest in it.

History gets lost all of the time. Only people who are committed to perserving it, actually perserve it.

/soapbox.

[BillBrown]

I still want to see the evidence that it is, in fact, an Indian Mound and how they determined it to be 1,500 years old. Heck there is a hill just down the road that I'll bet is older than that. :rolleyes:

Every patch of ground in the world is older than that.
Every building that's built, is built on ground billions of years old.

There might be dead bodies, or dinosaur bones, under any building.

This is silliness.

[sgtmac_46]

I still want to see the evidence that it is, in fact, an Indian Mound and how they determined it to be 1,500 years old. Heck there is a hill just down the road that I'll bet is older than that. :rolleyes:

You're probably right! Some farmer in the 1920's probably piled a mound of dirt there and subsequentl local legend has pronounced it a 1500 year old Indian Burial mound!

[sgtmac_46]

Every patch of ground in the world is older than that.
Every building that's built, is built on ground billions of years old.

There might be dead bodies, or dinosaur bones, under any building.

This is silliness.
True, that! A bunch of drama queens getting their panties twisted because it's Wal-Mart.

[roger teekell]

Every patch of ground in the world is older than that.
Every building that's built, is built on ground billions of years old.

There might be dead bodies, or dinosaur bones, under any building.

This is silliness.

True..

And by the way how do we know the Indians didn't swipe the dirt to build that mound from some 1,000,000 year old Caveman Burial Site.:razz:

[King Cantona]

Every patch of ground in the world is older than that.
Every building that's built, is built on ground billions of years old.

There might be dead bodies, or dinosaur bones, under any building.

This is silliness.

I live in England and there's lots of castles 'round here, I guess we should bulldoze them to build a new McDonald's or a shopping mall...:rolleyes:...

[roger teekell]

I live in England and there's lots of castles 'round here, I guess we should bulldoze them to build a new McDonald's or a shopping mall...:rolleyes:...

I'm sure those castles are listed and protected as "Historical sights"...No?

[Army Wife]

I promise you, I will NEVER shop at a Sam's Club, never again.

Fine by me that will make you one less person who I have to wait to get their cart out of the way while I am trying to shop...

[CID_0687]

Morning Emma :hug:

They were aware of it, they are not involved in it, the mound was investigated less than half dozen shards of supposed Indian pottery were found, no signs of burial, no signs of any reason to not make use of the dirt.

There was no interest in the place until "evil" Sam's Club got interested in the nearby location.

No one of the OMG it is sacred ground crew cared before that enough to do anything about the mound.

I am tired of people with an anti Wal Mart agenda using BS like this to try and stop their building stores.

They tried it here and almost cost us the new Wal Mart that just opened that is a definite BOON to our community.
Oh you missed the part about when the YMCA was going to build on the site and it got postponed...because they learned of the historical value, that Mayor Leon conveniently forgot to disclose.

Some people in this thread are making me sick. I'm all for capitalism. But I'm just as much for land and historical conservation...especially when it's in my hometown.

As I said before there are plenty of other spots along the interstate where they could build the Sam's Club...this is just about the almighty dollar and ****ing disgusting.

[Gabby]

I live in England and there's lots of castles 'round here, I guess we should bulldoze them to build a new McDonald's or a shopping mall...:rolleyes:...


These are different issues.

The castle itself is evidence that ancient humans were there and built it. It is indeed historical.

There is apparently no evidence at all that Indians actually built that mound/hill. So far all we've heard is speculation. Speculation that no one bothered to really investigate up to now. So basically no one cared one whit about the hill/mound until Wal-Mart wanted to use some of the dirt.

[King Cantona]

I'm sure those castles are listed and protected as "Historical sights"...No?

Of course and there are also an awful lot of listed buildings, you can't even renovate a listed building without getting permission from the relevant authority...

Much less tear one down, you can't just bulldoze stonehenge you know........;)..........

[Gabby]

Of course and there are also an awful lot of listed buildings, you can't even renovate a listed building without getting permission from the relevant authority...

Much less tear one down, you can't just bulldoze stonehenge you know........;)..........

The point a lot of people here, myself included, are taking is that if this site is really of any importantance someone should have made the effort before this to investigate it and get it registered to protect it.

Or now that it's threatened, they could do an emergency order to get the work stopped.

But apparently no one cares enough about it, not even those yelling about it, to do what it takes to protect the site.

It's easy to assume that it's not what some are claiming it is.

[LouC]

I live in England and there's lots of castles 'round here, I guess we should bulldoze them to build a new McDonald's or a shopping mall...:rolleyes:...

Why not?

[King Cantona]

Why not?

You philistine.........:)).........

That was a joke, right?.......

[LouC]

Oh you missed the part about when the YMCA was going to build on the site and it got postponed...because they learned of the historical value, that Mayor Leon conveniently forgot to disclose.

That is relevant how?

Some people in this thread are making me sick.

Take some Poster-Bismol.

I'm all for capitalism.

No you aren't.

But I'm just as much for land and historical conservation...especially when it's in my hometown.

Proves what I said above.

NIMBY proves you are not "all" for capitalism.

Proves you are only for the limited capitalism you like.

As I said before there are plenty of other spots along the interstate where they could build the Sam's Club...

Why should they?

Because of a dumb mound of dirt that was seen as a possible way to attack Wal Mart Corporation however ludicrous the attack was?

this is just about the almighty dollar and ****ing disgusting.

Disgusting is the rabid anti Wal Mart people abusing "Native American" sentiments to try and stop a Sam's Club from being built in other words trying to have a victory against Wal Mart Corporation.

[LouC]

You philistine.........:)).........

That was a joke, right?.......

Some of those present castles were built on the fallen remains of previous ancient construction.

If the most recent construction should be sacrificed for the oldest then many of those castles you speak of have to come down.

[LouC]

I just wish people would speak the truth.

This isn't about 5 pieces of pottery (that could have been seeded) and some rocks making this a sacred significant mound.

This is about an attempt to stop a Sam's Club from competing with existing merchants.

It was the same when local merchants here tried to get our new Wal Mart from being built by suddenly claiming a "protected" snake lived on the proposed construction site.

Funny the same merchants never had issues with disturbing Massasauga rattlesnakes on the 150 acre site as it got plowed and planted year after year after year since before the town even incorporated?

They even had anti Wal Mart people at a town meeting here bring up Indian mumbo jumbo as a reason to deny Wal Mart permission to build there.

[LouC]

Of course and there are also an awful lot of listed buildings, you can't even renovate a listed building without getting permission from the relevant authority...

Much less tear one down, you can't just bulldoze stonehenge you know........;)..........

If it was discovered that those bastard Druids had built on top of a previous civilizations burial site then hell yes them stones get tossed.

[CID_0687]

That is relevant how?



Take some Poster-Bismol.



No you aren't.



Proves what I said above.

NIMBY proves you are not "all" for capitalism.

Proves you are only for the limited capitalism you like.



Why should they?

Because of a dumb mound of dirt that was seen as a possible way to attack Wal Mart Corporation however ludicrous the attack was?



Disgusting is the rabid anti Wal Mart people abusing "Native American" sentiments to try and stop a Sam's Club from being built in other words trying to have a victory against Wal Mart Corporation.
Since when is land and historical conservation anti-capitalism? Look, this is Alabama...folks around here love Wal-Mart...I agree it's the Anti-WallyWorlders that are causing all this fuss. When it was the YMCA nobody cared, except the folks around here. The point is there are plenty of other sites where it could be built. Mayor Leon is an asshat.

Don't tell me what the hell I am and am not. I am for capitalism...and this isn't limited, because like I said it's not the only spot, and there are probably spots they could get cheaper.

[sgtmac_46]

I live in England and there's lots of castles 'round here, I guess we should bulldoze them to build a new McDonald's or a shopping mall...:rolleyes:...

If you weren't already bulldozing some old structure's for building purposes you'd still be living in peasant cottages. ;)

'OLD' doesn't always mean of any redeeming value.

[sgtmac_46]

They had 1500 years to declare this sight historic and off limits to developement..

If they didn't do it in that amount of time??

Maybe it's just not THAT Historic.

I think it became 'Historic' about the point Wal-Mart became involved.....dig deep enough and i'm sure you'll find the folks behind the groups arguing this are the same clowns who show up whenever Wal-Mart is involved........see also Penn and Teller's great episode 'Wal-Mart hatred is BULL ****!'

[BillBrown]

My city's guilty as well.
It just tore down a bunch of wino flop houses, to build a new city hall.

Think of the priceless classic Thunderbird bottles that are gone forever.

[LouC]

Since when is land and historical conservation anti-capitalism?

When it is only being invoked as a ruse to prevent commercial enterprise fom going forth, as in this case.

Look, this is Alabama...folks around here love Wal-Mart...

So do folks here, with the exception of at risk merchants and unionists and anti capitalists and of course the anti Wal Mart folks.

I agree it's the Anti-WallyWorlders that are causing all this fuss.

Wish the OP was that forthcoming.

When it was the YMCA nobody cared, except the folks around here.

They didn't want the YMCA because they didn't want the crowd the YMCA attracts (or believe one attracts)

The point is there are plenty of other sites where it could be built.

The point is why build at a point they don't want to build at just because of a pile of dirt no one cared about until they wanted to build in the area.

There is also no proof yet to counter the claim that Wal Mart coprporation made that "no" dirt from the mound was being used in their site.

Mayor Leon is an asshat.

Okay.

Don't tell me what the hell I am and am not.

Well when you make the statement "I am all for capitalism" then begin to say when and where you aren't for capitalism it has a tendency to make one disbelieve the all of it.

I never said you weren't for any capitalism but intimated that you were for limiting and restricting it.

Which you have again put forth in this latest post.

I am for capitalism...and this isn't limited, because like I said it's not the only spot, and there are probably spots they could get cheaper.

See.

You want to limit and restrict Sam's Club away from the spot they have chosen to some place you would choose.

You are for capitalism NIMBY-CID style.

It is okay.

[Gabby]

This isn't about 5 pieces of pottery (that could have been seeded) and some rocks making this a sacred significant mound.


Broken pottery? Maybe it was just their garbage dump.... brake the pot? Put in out back in the dump.

[roger teekell]

Some of those present castles were built on the fallen remains of previous ancient construction.

If the most recent construction should be sacrificed for the oldest then many of those castles you speak of have to come down.

Which brings me back to this question..

How do we know the Indians didn't swipe the dirt to build that mound from some 10,000 year old Caveman Burial Sight?

[CID_0687]

They didn't want the YMCA because they didn't want the crowd the YMCA attracts (or believe one attracts)





We've already got a YMCA...the building is old and in a side of town that is now less "user friendly"...This part of Oxford is the place to be now. It has nothing to do with they stereotypes. It appears that Mayor Leon decided not to let them build there because there wouldn't be as much revenue as Sam's Club would bring in.

[LouC]

Which brings me back to this question..

How do we know the Indians didn't swipe the dirt to build that mound from some 10,000 year old Caveman Burial Sight?

We don't.

Those rocks might have been stolen from other tribes as well and nothing more than one arrogant bunch of native american's booty.

Fine sacred rock pile of ill gotten gains. :rolleyes:

[King Cantona]

Some of those present castles were built on the fallen remains of previous ancient construction.

If the most recent construction should be sacrificed for the oldest then many of those castles you speak of have to come down.

Yes many castles were built on previous constructions but that was in times when the castle was built in the best strategic place to best defend. Are you aware that we Brits no longer live in feudal times?...

The fact that we embrace our history may be cause for ridicule by you but I am glad that there are so many castles and listed buildings to visit, better than just looking in a history book...

[LouC]

...It appears that Mayor Leon decided not to let them build there because there wouldn't be as much revenue as Sam's Club would bring in.

It appears Mayor Leon is anything but an "asshat" and is instead a smart Mayor looking out for the best interests of the folk.

Not counting the construction jobs a 136 k sq ft Sam's Club employs over 220 associates plus management.

They are always an anchor for other stores and restaurants which also bring in jobs and sales tax revenue to an area.

How many jobs would a YMCA bring in?

Why doesn't the YMCA locate to a less than prime commercial site?

Looking at Google Maps of the area there certainly are plenty of places a less commercial enterprise like the YMCA could choose.

[LouC]

Yes many castles were built on previous constructions but that was in times when the castle was built in the best strategic place to best defend.

I don't care why they were built on the older sites I only care that it is wrong and they should be removed.

If I am going to be like the anti Sam's Club whiners in this thread that is.

Are you aware that we Brits no longer live in feudal times?...

No I was not aware of that?

I thought Monty Python and the Holy Grail was a 1970's documentary on England. :rolleyes:

The fact that we embrace our history may be cause for ridicule by you but I am glad that there are so many castles and listed buildings to visit,

If one were truly embracing one's history then all castles built on the sites of earlier construction of other early people needs to be removed so that the folk can bask in the real historical history of the site.

Otherwise one is just like Mayor Leon Asshat in Oxford Alabama*. :naughty:

better than just looking in a history book...

How is it embracing history?

How is preserving a disheveled pile of dirt with a little pile of rocks on top, a pile of dirt with no real historical significance, a pile of dirt that sits behind an already existing shopping mall, how is saving that pile of dirt embracing history?

It isn't.

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk296/bigoldfartdude/mounds.jpg

This is all about attacking Wal Mart Corporation by way of trying to shut down the construction of a Sam's Club.

Note: I am sorry to all those I offended by typing Georgia instead of Alabama.

[CID_0687]

It appears Mayor Leon is anything but an "asshat" and is instead a smart Mayor looking out for the best interests of the folk.

Not counting the construction jobs a 136 k sq ft Sam's Club employs over 220 associates plus management.

They are always an anchor for other stores and restaurants which also bring in jobs and sales tax revenue to an area.

How many jobs would a YMCA bring in?

Why doesn't the YMCA locate to a less than prime commercial site?

Looking at Google Maps of the area there certainly are plenty of places a less commercial enterprise like the YMCA could choose.
Plenty of sites for Sam's Club too...that are not already congested as hell. With the Oxford Exchange...which is a giant strip mall, which houses Target, Best Buy, Petsmart, Home Depot, and several other shops. There's 10 or 15 restaurants that have opened there in the last 5 years...several hotels...They did a **** poor job of designing the roadway...several accidents have occurred there since the opening of the Exchange. It's been great for providing jobs, and with revenue...but the planning has sucked, and a Sam's Club right next door is sure to add to the problems that are already there with the congestion.

[King Cantona]

If one were truly embracing one's history then all castles built on the sites of earlier construction of other early people needs to be removed so that the folk can bask in the real historical history of the site.

If we were to ever bask in the TRUE history of anywhere shouldn't we tear down all constructions going by your logic?

This is all about attacking Wal Mart Corporation by way of trying to shut down the construction of a Sam's Club.

I hope you don't include me in that because when in the US I visit WalMart and take advantage of their services, I got a watchstrap replaced there for example...

[CID_0687]

Otherwise one is just like Mayor Leon Asshat in Oxford Georgia.

Oxford Alabama!!!:mad:

:lol:

[LouC]

Plenty of sites for Sam's Club too...that are not already congested as hell.

But that congestion is traffic and traffic is sales and sales is profit and of course tax revenue.

With the Oxford Exchange...which is a giant strip mall, which houses Target, Best Buy, Petsmart, Home Depot, and several other shops.

The more the merrier I always say.

There's 10 or 15 restaurants that have opened there in the last 5 years...several hotels...

You are doing a good job of convincing me they chose a great location.

They did a **** poor job of designing the roadway...several accidents have occurred there since the opening of the Exchange.

Well that has nothing to do with a store that isn't even built yet.

But maybe the area has faulty drivers instead of faulty road engineering.

If it is the road that can be fixed, sadly there is no cure for bad drivers.

It's been great for providing jobs, and with revenue...

That is good.

The tax base of the area is already good.

There is obviously a labor market in place.

but the planning has sucked, and a Sam's Club right next door is sure to add to the problems that are already there with the congestion.

Nothing that can't be fixed and resolved and often with far less cost and infrastructure involved than starting over from scratch in a completely new location.

You sold me, it sounds like the Sam's Club people picked the best spot for their store.

[HSMaxim]

I'd hate to think that some Americans think history only started in 1542 and everything before then can be discarded...

This American knows that American "history" started in 1492 with the discovery of the Americas by Columbus.
It is also known that the Vikings "discovered" North America some time earlier, around the year 1000.

1607 was the year that Jamestown became the first settlement of English.

By 1542 the Spanish had already explored up and down both coasts and far inland.

It seems that if you are going to make an attempt to insult Americans and their knowledge of history, you may want to pick a decent year to do so with.

[CID_0687]

But that congestion is traffic and traffic is sales and sales is profit and of course tax revenue.



The more the merrier I always say.



You are doing a good job of convincing me they chose a great location.



Well that has nothing to do with a store that isn't even built yet.

But maybe the area has faulty drivers instead of faulty road engineering.

If it is the road that can be fixed, sadly there is no cure for bad drivers.



That is good.

The tax base of the area is already good.

There is obviously a labor market in place.



Nothing that can't be fixed and resolved and often with far less cost and infrastructure involved than starting over from scratch in a completely new location.

You sold me, it sounds like the Sam's Club people picked the best spot for their store.
Yeah, I guess if land preservation means nothing to someone then it's a good location. Personally, I see a better location at the other Oxford exit...which they attempted to develop with a few restaurants, but didn't really go anywhere because the only thing there is Wal-Mart...they could really capitalize on that area which, IMO is laid out better if they put the Sam's Club there. There's still plenty of traffic in that area, because it's right off of Quintard Ave. which is the main drag between Oxford and Anniston.

[LouC]

If we were to ever bask in the TRUE history of anywhere shouldn't we tear down all constructions going by your logic?

Until we get to the original "people" history of the site, then hell yes.

Oh you are confused on that last bit, it is not my logic, it is the "logic" of the anti Sam's Club whiners that I borrowed.

I hope you don't include me in that because when in the US I visit WalMart and take advantage of their services, I got a watchstrap replaced there for example...

Do you want to attack Wal Mart Corporation by way of shutting down the construction of the Oxford Alabama (sorry I will correct my other post) Sam's Club construction which is not using dirt from a pile of dirt nearby that has no real historical significance? :think:

If the answer is no then you are definitely not included. :)

[King Cantona]

This American knows that American "history" started in 1492

Yes of course, I was going through that old rhyme in my head but you're right of course, in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue, thanks for correcting me...

[King Cantona]

It seems that if you are going to make an attempt to insult Americans and their knowledge of history, you may want to pick a decent year to do so with.

What??

I didn't insult and I made no attempt to 'insult Americans' but as you know SOME Americans do not see history as the MAJORITY of Americans do...:cool:...

[LouC]

Oxford Alabama!!!:mad:

:lol:

Sorry.

I corrected my horrific mistake.

Forgive me... :hug:

[Sinister Rouge]

Alabama has a history of taking historical sites and bulldozing them. The city of Spanish Fort built neighborhoods on the grounds of the Civil War battle that was fought there--destroying the 140-year-old earthworks. Closer to the Gulf, the road to Ft. Morgan--where David Farragut said "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead" is crowded with over-priced resort hotels and casinos.
So this doesn't surprise me at all. The Walmart connection is irrelevant, this is just another example of an Alabama town leadership selling out.

[LouC]

Yeah, I guess if land preservation means nothing to someone then it's a good location.

Oh that is just silly.

Preserving a pile of dirt that has no historical significance is just silly.

If the dirt is that important to people they should make a reasonable offer to buy the dirt and have the pile moved to a more pristine location away from Malls and OMG Sam's Clubs.

Personally, I see a better location at the other Oxford exit...

Glad they have their own site survey crews.

which they attempted to develop with a few restaurants, but didn't really go anywhere because the only thing there is Wal-Mart...

Again I am glad they have their own site survey crews.

they could really capitalize on that area which, IMO is laid out better if they put the Sam's Club there.

I am certain they know what they are doing, but they have a website where you could send them your suggestions. :))

There's still plenty of traffic in that area, because it's right off of Quintard Ave. which is the main drag between Oxford and Anniston.

Trust me they have a pretty good handle on picking locations.

[CaffeineHat]

I'm a big history buff but I think the person[s] to blame here would be the city/county that approved building on that site in the first place. They certainly had a greater knowledge of the importance of the location and a greater interest in what was done with that property. They sold out.
Exactly! I'm not a big fan of Sam's Clubs but the city or county could have easily intervened and figured out somewhere else to get the dirt.

As a footnote, there is a gallery at the Art Institute of Chicago whose sole purpose is to display architectural artifacts from buildings that were demolished during the first Daley admin. Buildings of significance for their age, location, design and who designed them. Buildings by Wright and Sullivan, and Adler, and Burnham etc. Bureaucracies have a long legacy of selling out history in favor of the bottom line.

[LouC]

...The Walmart connection is irrelevant, this is just another example of an Alabama town leadership selling out.

Selling out to what?

To much needed jobs?

To increased convenience for the people?

To increased shopping options for the people?

To businesses that can service the ever increasing population?

To businesses that can add sales tax revenue and disposable wages to the town to help pay for the things that ever increasing populations want from cities?

It is a non significant pile of dirt with a little non significant pile of rock on top, fer crying out loud.

[CID_0687]

Sorry.

I corrected my horrific mistake.

Forgive me... :hug:
All is forgiven friend. Obviously we view this differently. Now in your last post quoting me you got the "King" part right but I'm King CID not Catona. ;)

[LouC]

All is forgiven friend. Obviously we view this differently. Now in your last post quoting me you got the "King" part right but I'm King CID not Catona. ;)

Ok King CID.

(that was simply because I knew you would be reading the post but meh, you want to be crowned King who am I to argue)



King CID :think:

Why do I flash on animated prehistoric sloths with delusions of grandeur when I think "King Cid"????????

:))

[CID_0687]

Ok King CID.

(that was simply because I knew you would be reading the post but meh, you want to be crowned King who am I to argue)



King CID :think:

Why do I flash on animated prehistoric sloths with delusions of grandeur when I think "King Cid"????????

:))
:))

[Army Wife]

Much less tear one down, you can't just bulldoze stonehenge you know........;)..........

Weeeeelll you could...might not make the locals happy but you could do it all you need is a big backhoe :mrgreen:

[Army Wife]

King CID :think:

Why do I flash on animated prehistoric sloths with delusions of grandeur when I think "King Cid"????????

:))

Oh now that is just totally WRONG!!! Even more so that those flying red braids CID had...

[HeyJude]

LouC,

I find most of your posts to me, and about me, as abrasive and presumptive.
And your general attitude about preserving history is assinine, to say the least.

[HeyJude]

Alabama has a history of taking historical sites and bulldozing them. The city of Spanish Fort built neighborhoods on the grounds of the Civil War battle that was fought there--destroying the 140-year-old earthworks. Closer to the Gulf, the road to Ft. Morgan--where David Farragut said "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead" is crowded with over-priced resort hotels and casinos.
So this doesn't surprise me at all. The Walmart connection is irrelevant, this is just another example of an Alabama town leadership selling out.

You are correct, this is not about WalMart.
This is about the lack of concern for anything historic.
I have enjoyed doing research about my ancestors, and have found many historical sites that they were a part of. It's been a wonderful experience for me.
I am very pleased that many sites have been preserved.
But many have not, only a roadside marker remaining.

In spite of the current recession, we are a wealthy nation, fully capable of preserving our history, while still enjoying the benefits many vendors have to offer.

[MrShotShot]

I thought so too, but this says otherwise:

[/B]

Large doesn't mean significant and neither does old.

If it's just a mound of old dirt then it's no different than the billions of mounds of old dirt found throughout the world.

I'd be interested to find out if those arguing for the "historical significance" of this mound are connected with the same groups that try and stop construction of pretty much every single wal-mart or sams club.

[HeyJude]

Stone mound's fate at Oxford uncertain; archaeologists tell city it may find human remains


A stone mound at the center of controversy in Oxford is the work long ago of Americans Indians and, if the city continues plans to demolish it for fill (http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/07/oxford_city_officials_ignore_c.html) to help build a Sam's Club, the city should have an expert prepared in case human remains are found, the Anniston Star (http://www.annistonstar.com/)reports, citing recommendations from a study by University of Alabama archaeologists.
The Alabama Historical Commission has recommended the city leave the mound alone, American Indians have protested the city's plans and there is debate over how much of the mound remains after initial work because the city has barred reporters from site, according to the newspaper (http://www.annistonstar.com/pages/full_story/push?article-UA+report+on+Oxford+stone+mound+released-+City+councilwoman-+Company+told+workers+not+to+remove+mound%20&id=2921650-UA+report+on+Oxford+stone+mound+released-+City+councilwoman-+Company+told+workers+not+to+remove+mound&instance=home_lead_story).

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/07/stone_mounds_fate_at_oxford_un.html

[HeyJude]

Large doesn't mean significant and neither does old.

If it's just a mound of old dirt then it's no different than the billions of mounds of old dirt found throughout the world.

I'd be interested to find out if those arguing for the "historical significance" of this mound are connected with the same groups that try and stop construction of pretty much every single wal-mart or sams club.


A)....I'm just a regular human being, I have no fight against WalMart.
B)....The mound is gone, it was destroyed yesterday.

[HeyJude]

The AP photos show a scene dramatically different from the one shown in pictures Johnny Rollins of Heflin took in May before demolition crews reached the site. The site, once shaded by trees, is shown virtually stripped of vegetation.

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews/articleid/3364533

[HeyJude]

There's one person to blame. And it's that bastard of a mayor Leon Smith. This is happening in my hometown. I live right outside of the Oxford/Anniston area. Mayor Leon has done a lot of good for the economy of Oxford, I'll give him that. I-20 runs through Oxford and he's help to capitalize on that. But it's turned into nothing but an interstate town. But this has all also been for his personal gain as he owned/owns much of the land in Oxford. The fact that a historical site would be torn down for the sake of the almighty Wally World doesn't surprise me...but it's a damn shame. I'm all for making a buck, but there are other spots in town that they could build the Sam's Club on. Several vacant buildings that could be torn down to make a place for it.

There's no need to destruct something like this...but I've got a feeling, knowing where it is, that Mayor Leon himself owns the land.

I am not a native of Alabama, I've only lived here for 25 years.
But my mom was born here, and so was her mom, my granny, and so was my granny's mom. Going back to about 1790.

So I was raised with a great respect for my ancestors.
And a great respect for the land they held dear.

[HSMaxim]

On a side note, in Pittsburgh, the city is going to (or maybe already has by now) bury the remaining remnants of the Fort Pitt Music Bastion in order to free up space for the Three Rivers Arts Festival and the Regatta.

Those wanting to bury it say that this will preserve it, by burying it as it once was.

So it's not only WalMart and the state of Alabama doing this kind of stuff, Pittsburgh is willing to cover up an historical landmark with ties to George Washington and the early beginnings of our nation.

[CID_0687]

I am not a native of Alabama, I've only lived here for 25 years.
But my mom was born here, and so was her mom, my granny, and so was my granny's mom. Going back to about 1790.

So I was raised with a great respect for my ancestors.
And a great respect for the land they held dear.
As was I...my mother is a native, my grandmother and her family are natives to Etowah County...Gadsden/Atalla...if you're familiar with that area...Funny...my dad and my maternal grandfather are both Oklahoma natives...but I've lived in Anniston since I was 2...Dad was in the Army and I was born in Germany...But mother was born in Anniston, and here until Papaw went active duty in the Army.

[sgtmac_46]

Note to all drama queens.......

It wasn't Stonehenge, it wasn't the Sphinx, it wasn't the Great Pyramid, the Taj Mahal, the Great Wall, or Ankor Wat............it was a large mound of dirt, and humans have been capable of piling dirt in to large mounds for far longer than this pile of dirt allegedly existed, so any unique characteristic of it is pretty damn dubious........and any comparison to any of the former mentioned wonders of the world are pretty silly.

[LouC]

LouC,

I find most of your posts to me, and about me, as abrasive and presumptive.
And your general attitude about preserving history is assinine, to say the least.

With all due respect I disagree and adamantly state those assertions are not at all valid.

However there is the TTTM if one feels "victimized" in violation of ToS, specifically if one feels the others postings were uncivil personal attacks on them and not their message.

Realize though there is no right to not be offended here by those fellow posters one might find harsh and rough in manner I.E. abrasive, thicker skin is oft recommended as a remedy for that.

One certainly does not in any way know, even the general breadth, of my attitude regarding preserving history by what I have posted in this thread, now that is really being presumptive.

For one to think that they do know, especially enough to paint it as asinine, is just silly as well.

Asinine, while on the subject, is trying to save a non significant pile of dirt with a non significant pile of rocks on top in the name of "preserving history" when there is no real history involved.

That is asinine.

But it makes perfect sense when one considers the real purpose that is hiding behind the "sacred mound" BS is just another attempt to thwart Wal Mart Corporation.

[GA_LP]

Not EVERY mound that Indians built needs to be preserved. As a kid, I had to go to the Etowah Indian Mounds south of Cartersville, GA several times for field trips. Interesting, but not the end all of American archeology.

[LouC]

The AP photos show a scene dramatically different from the one shown in pictures Johnny Rollins of Heflin took in May before demolition crews reached the site. The site, once shaded by trees, is shown virtually stripped of vegetation.

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews/articleid/3364533

Well to get to the dirt from the pile that has no real historical significance the trees and vegetation needs to be removed.

SOP

[sgtmac_46]

A historic pile of dirt.....lets all take a deep breath and contemplate that argument.

[LouC]

A historic pile of dirt.....lets all take a deep breath and contemplate that argument.

But But But they found a piece of chert there, and five pottery shards!!!!!!

:))

[sgtmac_46]

But But But they found a piece of chert there, and five pottery shards!!!!!!

:))

Hell, then my backyard is a historical site!

[GA_LP]

Hell, then my backyard is a historical site!Quick, call the National Trust for Historical Preservation and start charging admission.

[sgtmac_46]

Quick, call the National Trust for Historical Preservation and start charging admission.

I should!

'And over in this part of the yard, ladies and gentlemen, is a cow skull that dates back to meso-america.......'

[samurai7]

Indian Mounds don't pay taxes.

But seriously we know in Ohio you do not mess with Indian Mounds. The ground is cursed, and they rope them off, so you aren't even allowed to walk on them.

They built the Memorial Golf Course over Leather Lips grave, and he warned if anyone touched his grave there would be a curse.

Every Memorial Tournement it rains. We call it the Curse of Leatherlips.

They tried building a monument to Leatherlips to appease him. It didn't help.

Jack Nicklaus had to have his stupid golf course over Leatherlips grave. Idiot. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't walk in a Sam's Club built over an Indian Mound. We in Ohio know you just do not do that. No freaking WAY! Anyone ever hear of the Amnityville Horror? :eek:

[sgtmac_46]

Indian Mounds don't pay taxes.

But seriously we know in Ohio you do not mess with Indian Mounds. The ground is cursed, and they rope them off, so you aren't even allowed to walk on them.

They built the Memorial Golf Course over Leather Lips grave, and he warned if anyone touched his grave there would be a curse.

Every Memorial Tournement it rains. We call it the Curse of Leatherlips.

They tried building a monument to Leatherlips to appease him. It didn't help.

Jack Nicklaus had to have his stupid golf course over Leatherlips grave. Idiot. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't walk in a Sam's Club built over an Indian Mound. We in Ohio know you just do not do that. No freaking WAY! Anyone ever hear of the Amnityville Horror? :eek:

'They're HERRRRREEEEE!'


Though in this case it's probably not an indian burial ground.......it's PROBABLY an indian LAND FILL!

[BillBrown]

Note to all drama queens.......

It wasn't Stonehenge, it wasn't the Sphinx, it wasn't the Great Pyramid, the Taj Mahal, the Great Wall, or Ankor Wat............it was a large mound of dirt, and humans have been capable of piling dirt in to large mounds for far longer than this pile of dirt allegedly existed, so any unique characteristic of it is pretty damn dubious........and any comparison to any of the former mentioned wonders of the world are pretty silly.


If they found Indian bones in that pile, what would it prove?

It would prove that Indians had bones.

I can't think of anything that could be in there that would make any difference.
It's not going to cure a cancer, or even grow hair on a bald head.

[sgtmac_46]

If they found Indian bones in that pile, what would it prove?

It would prove that Indians had bones.

I can't think of anything that could be in there that would make any difference.
It's not going to cure a cancer, or even grow hair on a bald head.

Touche.

[samurai7]

'They're HERRRRREEEEE!'


Though in this case it's probably not an indian burial ground.......it's PROBABLY an indian LAND FILL!

Hey you can laugh, but you come to Ohio and ask why any Indian Mound is roped off, and why they built a monument to an Indian that has been dead since before the Revolutionary war, and those in Central Ohio won't laugh.

You don't **** with those things. You just don't.

As for land fill. 1500 years old????? It's of great historic significance. It's a crime to destroy it for a store.

I can understand that cities are going broke and they are desperate for the tax dollars, but there has to be a solution that doesn't destroy something like this. It's akin to destroying one of the pyramids to put up a stip mall. It's just wrong.

And I'm telling you man. The Indians cursed the ground of those things. I'm a God fearing woman. But I'm not going to dance on anyone's grave to prove a point -- Especially not one of those graves.

[LouC]

...It's of great historic significance....

The things is Sam is that it isn't of any historical significance.

It has been investigated.

They found one piece of chert "used in tool making" and six* shards of pottery.





Note: One article said five shards and another said six, so I will go with the six shards, not that one more shard a sacred mound makes. :rolleyes:

[samurai7]

The things is Sam is that it isn't of any historical significance.

It has been investigated.

They found one piece of chert "used in tool making" and six* shards of pottery.





Note: One article said five shards and another said six, so I will go with the six shards, not that one more shard a sacred mound makes. :rolleyes:

It exists. It shouldn't be messed with.

I mean for pity sake, there is dirt everywhere. I don't believe dirt has become so rare, that's the only place they can get it.

[LouC]

It exists. It shouldn't be messed with.

I mean for pity sake, there is dirt everywhere. I don't believe dirt has become so rare, that's the only place they can get it.

Why shouldn't it be utilized?

Why run around looking for a piece of ground that doesn't have some historical significance?

What is the big deal?

Why have dump trucks running miles and miles hauling dirt from some remote site when there is that big hill right there?

The only thing rare I have seen in this issue is common sense.

The rocks up there might have had some significance (might) to someone at some point in time but they are gone, what their purpose was (if there was one) is unknowable, but we do know modern people didn't give a crap they even existed until the city decided to make use of the dirt on a site where Sam's Club and the "evil" Wal Mart Corporation were building a store.

[samurai7]

Why shouldn't it be utilized?

Why run around looking for a piece of ground that doesn't have some historical significance?

What is the big deal?

Why have dump trucks running miles and miles hauling dirt from some remote site when there is that big hill right there?

The only thing rare I have seen in this issue is common sense.

The rocks up there might have had some significance (might) to someone at some point in time but they are gone, what their purpose was (if there was one) is unknowable, but we do know modern people didn't give a crap they even existed until the city decided to make use of the dirt on a site where Sam's Club and the "evil" Wal Mart Corporation were building a store.

Like there isn't any local ground besides this mound to get dirt?

Oh come on. You expect me to buy that?

:rolleyes:

[LouC]

Like there isn't any local ground besides this mound to get dirt?

Oh come on. You expect me to buy that?

:rolleyes:

I am not asking you to buy anything.

I am expecting a little common sense to prevail.

There is not one compelling reason to go elsewhere for fill dirt when there is a hill full of it right there.

It makes no sense.

There is no historical significance to that hill to stop it being used.

If people want to preserve the little pile of rocks at the top of the hill with some notion they hold substantial historical significance then do that by moving them to a museum where they will actually be seen by people.

[snagswolf]

While I think that making that huge mound of dirt just with human power is admirable, one has to wonder about a culture that had thousands of years to come up with something permanent that is worth preserving, and the best they have is a mound of dirt?

Basically, it's "Let's protect these mounds of dirt around the country, because they pretty much represent the summit of the Native Americans' engineering achievement".

[GA_LP]

Like there isn't any local ground besides this mound to get dirt?

Oh come on. You expect me to buy that?

:rolleyes:And that local dirt costs about $200 per truck load for about 14 cubic yards of dirt. I don't expect ANY construction manager to spend money they shouldn't have to when there is suitable fill dirt ON SITE.

[samurai7]

I am not asking you to buy anything.

I am expecting a little common sense to prevail.

There is not one compelling reason to go elsewhere for fill dirt when there is a hill full of it right there.

It makes no sense.

There is no historical significance to that hill to stop it being used.

If people want to preserve the little pile of rocks at the top of the hill with some notion they hold substantial historical significance then do that by moving them to a museum where they will actually be seen by people.

And there is no common sense in preserving a 1500 old mound????????

You can't move an Indian mound! And you talk about common sense????

:rolleyes:

[Gabby]

Before this thread I had never heard of the Indian mounds before. So I looked them up.

They are usually nothing more than a pile of dirt and rocks. There is usually nothing else in them. Though a few have been found to have people buried there.

No one knows the significance of the mounds. Speculation is that they might have been for religous purposes or to mark ownership of tracks of land.

There are apparently thousands of these mounds.

Perserving a few for historical purposes makes sense. But preserving every one of them.. i'm not sure that makes sense. They are piles of dirt & rock. Their meaning has been lost.

And apparently no one gave a hoot about this particular mound until Wal-Mart wanted the dirt.

[BillBrown]

Before this thread I had never heard of the Indian mounds before. So I looked them up.

They are usually nothing more than a pile of dirt and rocks. There is usually nothing else in them. Though a few have been found to have people buried there.

No one knows the significance of the mounds. Speculation is that they might have been for religous purposes or to mark ownership of tracks of land.

There are apparently thousands of these mounds.

Perserving a few for historical purposes makes sense. But preserving every one of them.. i'm not sure that makes sense. They are piles of dirt & rock. Their meaning has been lost.

And apparently no one gave a hoot about this particular mound until Wal-Mart wanted the dirt.

They are as valuable as a pile of wine bottles left under a bridge.

[samurai7]

Before this thread I had never heard of the Indian mounds before. So I looked them up.

They are usually nothing more than a pile of dirt and rocks. There is usually nothing else in them. Though a few have been found to have people buried there.

No one knows the significance of the mounds. Speculation is that they might have been for religous purposes or to mark ownership of tracks of land.

There are apparently thousands of these mounds.

Perserving a few for historical purposes makes sense. But preserving every one of them.. i'm not sure that makes sense. They are piles of dirt & rock. Their meaning has been lost.

And apparently no one gave a hoot about this particular mound until Wal-Mart wanted the dirt.

I don't know where you got your information, but that's crap.

In Ohio we preserve Indian Mounds.

http://cleveland.about.com/b/2009/05/17/ohios-indian-mounds.htm

http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/learn/ohio.htm

http://www.greatdreams.com/mounds.htm

Including our most famous, the Great Serpent Mound.

http://greatserpentmound.com/

[LouC]

And there is no common sense in preserving a 1500 old mound????????

No there isn't!

No there isn't, especially when there is no historical significance inherent in said mound with a pile of rocks atop.

You can't move an Indian mound!

Of course you can, and they have been, moving it to fill the construction site.

Trucks, dozers, loaders etc. and the job is easy.

And you talk about common sense????

Common sense is comprehending what others wrote, which was moving the pile of rocks on top of the mound to a museum, not moving the mound.

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: Back at ya!

The pile of rocks in question at the top of the mound certainly could be surveyed, mapped, and moved to a museum where it could be rebuilt in its existing form.

See the pile of rocks at the following link: http://snsimages.tribune.com/media/photo/2009-07/48185546.jpg

[HeyJude]

As was I...my mother is a native, my grandmother and her family are natives to Etowah County...Gadsden/Atalla...if you're familiar with that area...Funny...my dad and my maternal grandfather are both Oklahoma natives...but I've lived in Anniston since I was 2...Dad was in the Army and I was born in Germany...But mother was born in Anniston, and here until Papaw went active duty in the Army.


Nice to meet a fellow Alabamian here. :)
My Alabama roots are in the SE corner of the State. My mom's family came here in the early 1800's from Georgia; an ancestor was a Factor for the Indian Agent Ben Hawkins. My dad's family was from Georgia, and grandpa was half Creek.

[LouC]

I don't know where you got your information, but that's crap.

In Ohio we preserve Indian Mounds.

http://cleveland.about.com/b/2009/05/17/ohios-indian-mounds.htm

http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/learn/ohio.htm

http://www.greatdreams.com/mounds.htm

Including our most famous, the Great Serpent Mound.

http://greatserpentmound.com/

Thanks for proving my point with your links.

Mounds that have real historical significance are worth considering preserving.

The Oxford bump has no real historical significance and is good to use as fill dirt.

[coyote1880]

Has anyone noticed that this site is not where the Sam's club is being built?

The Sam's club has nothing to do with it.

They are destroying the site for fill dirt.

FILL DIRT.

The city or county could not find fill dirt somewhere else?

I saw here someone said "why could they not build somewhere else?"

This is not the building site.

It has nothing to do with Sam's Club.

[CID_0687]

Has anyone noticed that this site is not where the Sam's club is being built?

The Sam's club has nothing to do with it.

They are destroying the site for fill dirt.

FILL DIRT.

The city or county could not find fill dirt somewhere else?

I saw here someone said "why could they not build somewhere else?"

This is not the building site.

It has nothing to do with Sam's Club.
They're building the Sam's Club about 200 yards from the mound...and using the mound as fill dirt...About 400 yards from there is a hill side that they've used for fill dirt in the past. So there wouldn't be miles and miles to drive...just a couple hundred more yards.

[sgtmac_46]

It exists. It shouldn't be messed with.

I mean for pity sake, there is dirt everywhere. I don't believe dirt has become so rare, that's the only place they can get it.

Dirt ain't special either......even if you call it a 'mound'. ;)

[FidelisAdMortem]

Will it be like the movies, and haunting will begin?

That would be cool. Send in the ghost guys to investigate and make a tv show out of it.

[HeyJude]

Found this in the Anniston Star comment section:



OK, I'll try to fill in the blanks here. On April 4th, 2006, I went to the top of this mound with my children. Once there, you could feel what was there, and it was good. While there, I went through a roll of film of what the top contained. There were seven oblong areas marked off with stones, approx. 7 feet long and 4-1/2 wide in the center, on the outside of these oblong circles, approx. 5 feet away from the outer most stone was a half circle of stones approx 5 feet wide and 6 feet deep. The body was rested inside the oblong circles and the outer stone 1/2 circle is where the family and the holy man sat and prayed for 2 to 3 days.

On the east side of the mound, approx. 50 feet down the side was a cave entrance and after the time of prayer and mourning was over, the remains were placed inside of the cave chamber.

...The center of the mound had a larger stone circle excatly 30 feet from side to side, and my guess is that was where the 3 prayer fire was kept by the fire keeper of these people.

Sadly to say, the has collapsed from the weight of the equipment.

One more thing, when we were up there, I had the opportunity to take the site manager who was in charge of building the Oxford Exchange, to the top. I showed him what was there and what it was, he gave his word that the mound would not be touched by him or his crew and he the man kept his word, that's why he's not there any more.

[sgtmac_46]

Found this in the Anniston Star comment section:





So there are drama queens who comment in the Anniston Star too, huh? The comments facts are of a very dubious nature........because the commenter imagined this or that about the mound doesn't make it so.

"Meanwhile attempts to track down a University of Alabama study on the structure have been unsuccessful. People familiar with the study, including city officials, said it found little at the site." http://www.annistonstar.com/pages/full_story/push?article-State+laws+offer+few+protections+for+mound%20&id=2901863-State+laws+offer+few+protections+for+mound&instance=home_lead_story

Face it.....it's a pile of dirt nobody cared about until Sam's Club showed up.

[sgtmac_46]

Will it be like the movies, and haunting will begin?

That would be cool. Send in the ghost guys to investigate and make a tv show out of it.

Great.......just what we need, those clowns running around with shaky night vision cameras, seeing jack nothing, and scaring the hell out of each other when one of them passes gas 'in a ghostly manner'.

"Wha' was that?! :eek:"

[HeyJude]

Has anyone noticed that this site is not where the Sam's club is being built?

The Sam's club has nothing to do with it.

They are destroying the site for fill dirt.

FILL DIRT.

The city or county could not find fill dirt somewhere else?

I saw here someone said "why could they not build somewhere else?"

This is not the building site.

It has nothing to do with Sam's Club.


Sam's Club could have stopped it if they had wanted to.
If you were building yourself a home, and needed fill dirt, and knew the contractor was going to get the fill dirt from an ancient burial site, you could put a stop to it if you wanted to.

[LouC]

Has anyone noticed that this site is not where the Sam's club is being built?

Yes.

The Sam's club has nothing to do with it.

Yes I have pointed that out.

They are destroying the site for fill dirt.

They are wanting to remove dirt from a site that has no real historical significance and in so doing isn't really destroying anything but a quaint topographical feature.

FILL DIRT.

Yes for Fill Dirt.

The city or county could not find fill dirt somewhere else?

Yes they could.

No reason they should.

Perhaps if the people so keen on preserving this pile of dirt and rocks with no real historical significance would offer to pay for the cost of dirt from somewhere else and the cost of delivering it the fill site then the City would spare the "sacred" dirt pile.

That would certainly go far to convincing me this isn't just a bunch of anti Sam's Club and anti Wal Mart Corporation BS.

I saw here someone said "why could they not build somewhere else?"

Yeah even though it is the City doing the filling and not Sam's Club.

This is not the building site.

But it is fill for facilitating the public access to and from the commercial site, so that makes Wal Mart the "evil" one in this.

It has nothing to do with Sam's Club.

With the exception of using it as an anti Sam's Club aka anti Wal Mart Corporation cudgel no it doesn't.

That is why I earlier said the Thread Title is inaccurate.

[Gabby]

I don't know where you got your information, but that's crap.

In Ohio we preserve Indian Mounds.

http://cleveland.about.com/b/2009/05/17/ohios-indian-mounds.htm

http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/learn/ohio.htm

http://www.greatdreams.com/mounds.htm

Including our most famous, the Great Serpent Mound.

http://greatserpentmound.com/

Like I said some are worth saving.. especially those that have known significance.

It appears that noone cared enough about the mound in question here... not enough to get it on a registry to preserve it.

[LouC]

Found this in the Anniston Star comment section:





Was that from one of the people that looted the site?

[LouC]

...It appears that no one cared enough about the mound in question here... not enough to get it on a registry to preserve it.

The site doesn't qualify for preservation by the National Register of Historic Places according to the University of Alabama Phase II Testing of the Site.

[HeyJude]

As was I...my mother is a native, my grandmother and her family are natives to Etowah County...Gadsden/Atalla...if you're familiar with that area...Funny...my dad and my maternal grandfather are both Oklahoma natives...but I've lived in Anniston since I was 2...Dad was in the Army and I was born in Germany...But mother was born in Anniston, and here until Papaw went active duty in the Army.


Oh I meant to tell you, we used to do business with a man in Lineville, in Clay County. It's beautiful country up there. We traveled there every week for about a year. We almost moved there, but I didn't want to leave where I live now. Cheaha Mountain is spectacular.

A lot of Indian History in that general area.

[samurai7]

Like I said some are worth saving.. especially those that have known significance.

It appears that noone cared enough about the mound in question here... not enough to get it on a registry to preserve it.

It still sounds like a bad idea to me.

[LouC]

Sam's Club could have stopped it if they had wanted to.

It isn't Sam's Club pony in the race, they shouldn't get involved.

If you were building yourself a home, and needed fill dirt, and knew the contractor was going to get the fill dirt from an ancient burial site, you could put a stop to it if you wanted to.

There is no evidence that the mound in question or the pile of rocks on top is now or ever was burial ground.

The Alabama Site Survey discovered that the six tiny pottery shards they found and the 1/2" piece of chert were in the soil before the stones were placed, so there is a possibility that the stone placement was over another more ancient people having been at the site.

Why did the inconsiderate Ancient Stone Stacker's not care to preserve that possibly sacred site and put their stones somewhere else, lord knows there were plenty of places they could have gone.

During the survey they discovered a mid -twentieth century railroad spike at the site, should the site be put on the National Registry as a Historical Railroad Site?

One of the Criterion of consideration is items of 50 years of age and older, the spike qualifies.

[LouC]

It still sounds like a bad idea to me.

After reading the full University of Alabama Phase II Archaeological Testing Site Survey report I have even less conflict with taking the dirt than I had before.

I would still have no problem with their recommendation to have on site an archaeological observer of the deconstruction operations should any significant items or conditions surface.

[HeyJude]

It still sounds like a bad idea to me.

The way I look at it, their land was stolen from them, they were forced to move onto reservations. The least we can do is respect their ancient historical sites. Especially when they are asking/begging/pleading for the site to be left alone.
If the Indians didn't care about it, then I wouldn't care about it.
But they do care about it, and have asked for it to remain untouched.

[LouC]

The way I look at it, their land was stolen from them, they were forced to move onto reservations.

They got displaced, it happens in life, there was war over territory grabs before white men came to this continent.

The least we can do is respect their ancient historical sites.

Why?

Pretending a site is sacred just for the sake of assuaging some idiotic notion of guilt for what people did hundreds of years ago?

I was not born with "original white euro guilt" for the past.


Especially when they are asking/begging/pleading for the site to be left alone.

Yeah, too bad, they should have purchased the land and sat on it.


If the Indians didn't care about it, then I wouldn't care about it.

If the Indians care so much about it why did they do nothing about it but are now suddenly expecting the "non" Indians to do something about it?

But they do care about it, and have asked for it to remain untouched.

It hasn't remained untouched, long before Sam's Club came along it was very much touched, but they took no certain steps to stop that.

They have no clue what the site was used for, no certainty who built it, no idea that it might not have been a place where some leader brutally sacrificed his own people, yet they whine that they want it preserved.

[coyote1880]

Yes.



Yes I have pointed that out.



They are wanting to remove dirt from a site that has no real historical significance and in so doing isn't really destroying anything but a quaint topographical feature.



Yes for Fill Dirt.



Yes they could.

No reason they should.

Perhaps if the people so keen on preserving this pile of dirt and rocks with no real historical significance would offer to pay for the cost of dirt from somewhere else and the cost of delivering it the fill site then the City would spare the "sacred" dirt pile.

That would certainly go far to convincing me this isn't just a bunch of anti Sam's Club and anti Wal Mart Corporation BS.



Yeah even though it is the City doing the filling and not Sam's Club.



But it is fill for facilitating the public access to and from the commercial site, so that makes Wal Mart the "evil" one in this.



With the exception of using it as an anti Sam's Club aka anti Wal Mart Corporation cudgel no it doesn't.

That is why I earlier said the Thread Title is inaccurate.

Yes.

I am thinking this is nothing more than another "blame Walmart" story.

When they are having nothing to do with it.

If this mound had any historical significance at all this could have easily been stopped.

But that would not have allowed them to blame Walmart.

[StoneScratcher]

Some believe mounds were built by giants, similar to the ones in West Virginia.

[Samm]

Some believe mounds were built by giants, similar to the ones in West Virginia.

Do you do that intentionally, or is it an instinctive characteristic? ;)

[LouC]

Do you do that intentionally, or is it an instinctive characteristic? ;)


You can dance, you can jive, having the time of your life

See that girl, watch that scene, digging the segue queen

:dance:

[chip]

I heard this on the news today, and it made my blood boil.
What the HELL is wrong with this country, that a discount store is MORE important than an ancient Indian Mound ??

I promise you, I will NEVER shop at a Sam's Club, never again.

http://www.reznetnews.org/article/goodbye-indian-mounds-hello-sam-s-club-36320

http://digg.com/arts_culture/Destroying_A_1500Year_Old_Indian_Mound_To_Build_a_ Sam_s_Club

http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2009/07/destroying-a-1500yearold-indian-mound-to-build-a-sams-club.html


:rolleyes:

Sams Club didnt destroy anything. The city did.

[CID_0687]

Oh I meant to tell you, we used to do business with a man in Lineville, in Clay County. It's beautiful country up there. We traveled there every week for about a year. We almost moved there, but I didn't want to leave where I live now. Cheaha Mountain is spectacular.

A lot of Indian History in that general area.
Clay County is very pretty...I like going fishing at Lake Wedowee in Randolph County and always enjoy traveling through Clay County to get there. I live about 15 minutes from the base of the Cleburne County side of Mt. Cheaha...close to the Calhoun/Cleburne line...very beautiful up there.

[MrShotShot]

A)....I'm just a regular human being, I have no fight against WalMart.
B)....The mound is gone, it was destroyed yesterday.

I'm not saying that you do - but there is always some group finding some reason to try and stop a Wal-Mart from being built. In my town it's all about "aquifer protection" - funny they didn't seem to have a problem with the Target built right across the street.

Well, did they find anything?

[LouC]

I'm not saying that you do - but there is always some group finding some reason to try and stop a Wal-Mart from being built. In my town it's all about "aquifer protection" - funny they didn't seem to have a problem with the Target built right across the street.

Well, did they find anything?

No they didn't have a problem when dirt from the hill was used for the Kohl's right next to the site where the Sam's Club is going.

No protest when the TJ Max benefited from on-site fill dirt, or the Best Buy, or the Target, or the Ross, or the Petsmart, or the other stores and restaurants in the Oxford Exchange Shopping Center.

Not until it was Wal Mart Corporations turn did the on-site fill dirt suddenly become a big issue.

:think:

[MrShotShot]

No they didn't have a problem when dirt from the hill was used for the Kohl's right next to the site where the Sam's Club is going.

No protest when the TJ Max benefited from on-site fill dirt, or the Best Buy, or the Target, or the Ross, or the Petsmart, or the other stores and restaurants in the Oxford Exchange Shopping Center.

Not until it was Wal Mart Corporations turn did the on-site fill dirt suddenly become a big issue.

:think:

Ah, just as I thought.

[CID_0687]

A)....I'm just a regular human being, I have no fight against WalMart.
B)....The mound is gone, it was destroyed yesterday.
Umm...It's not gone...you posted this on Saturday, and on Saturday I went to eat at Lone Star which is right near the Oxford Exchange...I had to pass by the mound, and it's still there...looking just as it has for the last few months.

[Apatriot]

I heard this on the news today, and it made my blood boil.
What the HELL is wrong with this country, that a discount store is MORE important than an ancient Indian Mound ??

I promise you, I will NEVER shop at a Sam's Club, never again.

http://www.reznetnews.org/article/goodbye-indian-mounds-hello-sam-s-club-36320

http://digg.com/arts_culture/Destroying_A_1500Year_Old_Indian_Mound_To_Build_a_ Sam_s_Club

http://blog.eogn.com/eastmans_online_genealogy/2009/07/destroying-a-1500yearold-indian-mound-to-build-a-sams-club.html

One of the stories mentioned said that University of Alabama archaeologists found little or nothign at the site. IMHO, it probably wasnt' a real "Indian mound" but just a part of the landscape that everybody "thought" was an Indian mound.

(reznetnews)
The Anniston Star newspaper has so far been unable to obtain a copy of the University of Alabama study, but a letter from the Alabama Historical Commission's deputy state historic preservation officer indicated the university did not think the site was eligible for the National Register of Historic Places. The state Historic Preservation Commission did think the site was eligible for the National Register.

[Apatriot]

Alabama has a history of taking historical sites and bulldozing them. The city of Spanish Fort built neighborhoods on the grounds of the Civil War battle that was fought there--destroying the 140-year-old earthworks. Closer to the Gulf, the road to Ft. Morgan--where David Farragut said "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead" is crowded with over-priced resort hotels and casinos.
So this doesn't surprise me at all. The Walmart connection is irrelevant, this is just another example of an Alabama town leadership selling out.

The historical parts of Fort Morgan (namely Fort Morgan state park) are protected. Fort Morgan and Fort Gaines were the parts involved in the Naval battle, not the peninsula between Fort Morgan and Gulf Shores.

[MrShotShot]

One of the stories mentioned said that University of Alabama archaeologists found little or nothign at the site. IMHO, it probably wasnt' a real "Indian mound" but just a part of the landscape that everybody "thought" was an Indian mound.

(reznetnews)

I read that a team from Auburn visited the site, but all they found were remnants of their football program.

[LouC]

Umm...It's not gone...you posted this on Saturday, and on Saturday I went to eat at Lone Star which is right near the Oxford Exchange...I had to pass by the mound, and it's still there...looking just as it has for the last few months.

Actually without the trees it is more like it looked in the time of the stoners.

[CID_0687]

i read that a team from auburn visited the site, but all they found were remnants of their football program.
:)) :)) :)) :))

[LouC]

I read that a team from Auburn visited the site, but all they found were remnants of their football program.

:))

[HeyJude]

Umm...It's not gone...you posted this on Saturday, and on Saturday I went to eat at Lone Star which is right near the Oxford Exchange...I had to pass by the mound, and it's still there...looking just as it has for the last few months.

I was going by what I heard on the radio local news. I'm glad it's not gone yet.

[LouC]

One of the stories mentioned said that University of Alabama archaeologists found little or nothign at the site. IMHO, it probably wasnt' a real "Indian mound" but just a part of the landscape that everybody "thought" was an Indian mound.

(reznetnews)

Actually according to the UA Phase II Site Survey report they speculated it was a late Woodland period Indian mound.

They did not feel it met full criteria for National Registry status.

They did find artifacts at the site.

In one test trench they found 6, approximately 1/2" sized, shards of pottery consistent with the perceived time period.

In the same test trench they discovered a piece of chert also 1/2" in size.

These items were found below the surface of the dirt mound under an area cleared of rocks.

Also the team found a mid-twentieth century railroad spike on the surface near the rock pile.

In one of 12 holes identified as likely "looter pits" the Site survey team found pieces of brown broken glass which were identified as likely mid-twentieth to late-twentieth century beer bottles.

The report did not find it likely there were burials at the site, but of course would not completely rule out the possibility, the report did recommend an Archaeologist be on hand if the mound is deconstructed to immediately identify any evidence of significant archaeological importance unearthed by the process.

That I can live with.

[BillBrown]

This thread has had its effect.
I bought some stuff at Sam's, Saturday, for the first time in several years.

[HeyJude]

I was going by what I heard on the radio local news. I'm glad it's not gone yet.


Also, it was the radio news that said the mound was being destroyed to build a Sam's Club. They didn't say that it was for fill dirt, which is really just as bad imo, but it does put a "middleman" in between sam's and the mound. The radio news didn't mention the city's part at all.

A better title for this thread would be "1500 yr old Indian Mound to be used for fill dirt for a Sam's Club".

[CID_0687]

Also, it was the radio news that said the mound was being destroyed to build a Sam's Club. They didn't say that it was for fill dirt, which is really just as bad imo, but it does put a "middleman" in between sam's and the mound. The radio news didn't mention the city's part at all.

A better title for this thread would be "1500 yr old Indian Mound to be used for fill dirt for a Sam's Club".
No, the best title would be, "City of Oxford, AL doesn't care about historical preservation"

[ExDem]

Hey, the government bought the site, then found out it was used as a place of prayer. Don't you think the site should have been torn down? You know, the whole seperation of church and state faux outrage thing, and all?

Denney said the city purchased the hill and surrounding acreage several years ago for $10 million for development. Faced with questions about an ancient Indian site, Smith said the city paid the University of Alabama $60,000 to study the mound. University of Alabama researchers found six shards of Indian pottery under rocks atop the mountain, and their report said the mound was likely built by Indians during the late Woodlands period. Researchers didn't discover any evidence of burial sites among the rocks, though they said such remains could have been lost to erosion or looting. Oxford's mayor said the lack of bones means there's no reason not to bulldoze the mound. "It's just a pile of rocks is all it is," said Smith. City officials deny they are insensitive to history. Denney said officials have banned development at a 12-acre site about a half-mile from the hill because archaeologists found evidence that Indians once had a community there. Thrower said Indians from that settlement possibly carried many of the rocks up the steep hill to mark a place of prayer or to commemorate special events. There's no way to move the stones elsewhere and preserve the site, he said. "A colleague of mine referred to these places as `prayers in stone,'"

[snagswolf]

In one of 12 holes identified as likely "looter pits" the Site survey team found pieces of brown broken glass which were identified as likely mid-twentieth to late-twentieth century beer bottles.
Bastards! They're diggin up and destroying traces of our culture!




Do you ever wonder if humans ever got wiped out, how future alien archeologists would interpret our 'artifacts'?

"Here we have an excellect specimen from humanoid civilization. It's made of plastic, and when filled with air, it resembles the shape of a human female body, complete with oral and reproductive openings. After much study by our scientists, we've determined it was probably used for some kind of religious ritual."

[LouC]

...After much study by our scientists, we've determined it was probably used for some kind of religious ritual."

Later Xplitalpec, the lone night janitor at the humanoid civilization scientific lab could be heard, had anyone been about to hear, exclaiming most vociferously the following, "Okle Beek" "Okle Beek "Okle Beek" "Okle Beek" "Okle Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek"*

Thus confirming the vinyl object they had found resembling the shape of a human female body, complete with oral and reproductive openings, was in fact used for religious rituals.


Note: "Okle Beek" is "Oh God", when translated from the humanoid civilization language.

[LouC]

Also, it was the radio news that said the mound was being destroyed to build a Sam's Club. They didn't say that it was for fill dirt, which is really just as bad imo, but it does put a "middleman" in between sam's and the mound. The radio news didn't mention the city's part at all.

A better title for this thread would be "1500 yr old Indian Mound to be used for fill dirt for a Sam's Club".

Here are some far better titles

Dirt Mound With No Real Historical Significance To Aid Oxford Exchange Shopping Center Development

Mon Dieu! all this Mound Ado

Sacred Soil Okay For Kohl's Foundation But Forbidden For Wal Mart Corporation

Hypocrites Don't Care Where Fill Dirt Originates Until It Can Be Made An Issue To Beat Up Wal Mart Corporation

[sgtmac_46]

One of the stories mentioned said that University of Alabama archaeologists found little or nothign at the site. IMHO, it probably wasnt' a real "Indian mound" but just a part of the landscape that everybody "thought" was an Indian mound.

(reznetnews)

Probably so.........some farmer probably put it there years ago, and the rest became local legend.

[Samm]

This thread has had its effect.
I bought some stuff at Sam's, Saturday, for the first time in several years.

Me too... I was hoping to pick up some ancient native artifacts, but they were sold out. ;)

[BillBrown]

Me too... I was hoping to pick up some ancient native artifacts, but they were sold out. ;)

Me too. They said they were expecting a new shipment in from somewhere in Alabama. I think they said ancient Indian beer bottles and Big Chief Sanders' chicken bones.

[MrShotShot]

Maybe it has some connection to the glass castle on the moon.

[HeyJude]

No, the best title would be, "City of Oxford, AL doesn't care about historical preservation"


That seems to be the case. I find in most cases, if not all, "follow the money" will give all the necessary answers. This situation was definitely about money.

A while back ago, my husband and I went to an old Fort, which has been preserved as a State Park. No one was there, we had the place to ourselves. We walked for hours, just exploring, and we came upon an old abandoned cemetary. Overgrown with trees and vegetation. But we could make out some of the writings on the headstones. Some famous Indians were buried there, along with some famous white people. People who were very influential around 1815, people who signed treaties. And I was astounded, that these graves weren't very well protected. It would be easy enough for a bulldozer to destroy it.

Because I had done so much research, I knew who these people were, and the great things they had accomplished. I regret I didn't write down their names, and now it has been so long I don't remember. I hope to go back there one day, and if we can find it again, make a record of who is buried there.

The point being, these sites can't be replaced. When they are gone, they are gone. It behooves us to do all we can to preserve what we can, and not let the almighty dollar always be the deciding factor. Some things are worth more than money. Some things are priceless.

[Sketch]

Note to all drama queens.......

It wasn't Stonehenge, it wasn't the Sphinx, it wasn't the Great Pyramid, the Taj Mahal, the Great Wall, or Ankor Wat............it was a large mound of dirt, and humans have been capable of piling dirt in to large mounds for far longer than this pile of dirt allegedly existed, so any unique characteristic of it is pretty damn dubious........and any comparison to any of the former mentioned wonders of the world are pretty silly.

well put.

graves are useless after two generations - maybe more for the truely gifted people who help shape the world - but even there we tread on superstition.

bottom line - it really doesnt matter, our bodies are food for the worms and microscopic organisms after our last breaths are taken. better a toco stand for the living, than a stone monument or mound for no body.

[LouC]

...Some things are worth more than money. Some things are priceless.

Thank God that pile of dirt and rocks at the Oxford Exchange Shopping Center site is not worth more than money and is not priceless.

What is priceless is watching the way the anti Wal Mart Corporation people pulled strings and made their "puppets" dance to try to stop "only" the Sam's Club being built based on bogus claims of a "sacred mound".

That is priceless.

[TheBurningRed]

well put.

graves are useless after two generations - maybe more for the truely gifted people who help shape the world - but even there we tread on superstition.

bottom line - it really doesnt matter, our bodies are food for the worms and microscopic organisms after our last breaths are taken. better a toco stand for the living, than a stone monument or mound for no body.

Well lets dig up your loved ones (if they are buried) and see how you feel about that. Because you know there worm food anyway and who cares how you feel about that aslong I can make a buck over there grave.

[Porkulus Hummer]

I imagine the reaction here would be different if the story was any sort of Christian site...

[MrShotShot]

I imagine the reaction here would be different if the story was any sort of Christian site...

Apparently you didn't feel like reading through the previous several pages - it's NOT A SITE. It's a mound of dirt with a railroad spike, a few shards of pottery, and some broken beer bottles.

Ancient Christian sites are dug up all of the time - do you think those skyscrapers in Tel Aviv were there 2000 years ago?

[LouC]

I imagine the reaction here would be different if the story was any sort of Christian site...

No.

If the alleged Christian site was as lacking in significance as this little pile of rocks at the top of this hill in Alabama then hell no it wouldn't be a different story with me.

Not one bit.

[Ruzzty]

According to evolutionists.... man has been around millions of years (evolving). Well, since we currently have 6 billion people ALIVE on this planet - I can only imagine the trillions + trillions x 1,000,000,000 of DEAD people (if evolution were true) then every time you walk on dirt ANYWHERE, your stepping on dead people.

Maybe that was where the Indians buried criminals. Maybe they hated their criminals so much they never gave them headstones/markers. You know, the unmarked grave to punish the criminal for all eternity? They may be glad these criminals remains are being removed from this area so the good and decent folks who are down the dirt path can rest in peace. :)