A DOG, A GUN & A DAD: Patterson's advice on boys.

[hben]

Here is a good article on a speech given by Page Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth. He was giving advice on the importance of boys having a dog, a gun and a dad.

Posted: 10/3/03
A DOG, A GUN & A DAD:
Patterson's advice on boys

LAVACA, Ark. (BP)--The No. 1 problem in America today is a war against boys and the establishment of laws to prevent men from hunting and owning guns, Paige Patterson told a group of 1,300 men and boys at an Arkansas church.


Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, was keynote speaker at a Sportsman's Safari sponsored by First Baptist Church of Lavaca, Ark.

The goal of the event was "to get guys to see the things at church that they're normally looking for in the woods on Sunday," said Pastor Grant Ethridge.


After an exhibition of "monster bucks," archery equipment and firearms, the group heard from Patterson, an African big-game hunter.


Patterson talked about hunting plains game in Zimbabwe and displayed photos of his African trophies. But he said he actually came to tell the hunters about "America's No. 1 problem and what they can do about it."


A war against boys, hunting and gun ownership has produced a generation of fathers disconnected from their sons, he said.


"Today, there is a war against boys," Patterson declared. "You've got to make little girls out of your little boys."


He charged that boys have been prohibited even from portraying superheroes on school
playgrounds because the behavior is said by psychologists to illustrate aggressiveness. "Never mind that Batman and Superman were always on the side of right."


But Patterson said he believes dads still can give boys what they need, and that when fathers provide for their sons the nation is strengthened.


Little boys, he said, need three things--a dog, a gun and a dad.
"Every little boy needs a dog," Patterson said, "and not a little yip dog, but a big dog that he can be proud of."


By learning to care for the dog and providing its food, grooming and veterinary needs, Patterson said, the boy will learn responsibility.


Similarly, the boy will learn responsibility and respect for the safety of others if he has a gun.


"Get him a gun," Patterson urged. "Not a play gun, but a real gun. Play guns are the most dangerous guns in the world."


He recalled that when he was teaching his son how to shoot his first rifle, he took him out on a West Texas ranch at dusk. "I put a can up on the fence, and he aimed. When he pulled that trigger, fire flew from the end of that gun and lit up the place, and he thought he'd been kicked by a mule."


The event reinforced in his son the danger of using guns irresponsibly, he explained.
Patterson also said that every boy needs a father, for without a father there "is no image in the house they can relate to. He needs a daddy who doesn't just bring home the bacon, but who develops a relationship with him."


A son follows after his father, no matter the kind of person the father may be, Patterson said. "No little boy needs a daddy or granddaddy who will take him to hell. He's going where you're going. ... When you go to hell, look back over your shoulder; he'll follow you there."


Patterson asked the men to prepare for the future. By coming to faith in Christ, he said, God would make each one a "real man" and guarantee him eternal life; then, their sons would follow their example.


The same theme was presented again at a second sportsman's banquet at First Baptist Church of Little Rock the following evening. More than 600 men and boys attended the church's second annual outreach.


The church's pastor is Patterson's son-in-law, Mark Howell.


Twenty-seven men made decisions for Christ at the Lavaca banquet. Another 36 made decisions at the Little Rock banquet.


Reported by Gregory Tomlin, Southwestern Seminary


http://www.baptiststandard.com/images/archives/10_6/patterson_game.jpg

Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, speaks at a Sportsman's Safari event at First Baptist Church of Lavaca, Ark., where he told 1,300 people the greatest problem in America today is a war against boys and the establishment of laws to prevent men from hunting and owning guns. (Matthew Miller/SWBTS Photo)

[camarozz]

Amen Brother!

Boys need to be taught to be MEN, not little sissy boys that become cowards at the first sign of trouble.

Respect...
Honor...
Stand up for yourself and people...
Take a Stand for your values/morals...

I cannot tell enough people of my son and one of few fights; all of which are honorable, but this one specifically more so.

He saw a child on the playground being picked on by a "friend" of his, told this friend to back off and he didnt; so my son LAID HIM OUT!

Im so proud!

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

We weren't blessed with son's...we where blessed with daughters. Reading the OP article though..I can give a nod to the base premise of what this Pastor was trying to get across to these men and their boys. Boys aren't girls, shouldn't be expected to act like girls nor should they be forced to behave as a girl would. Boys are boys..and should be honored as such...not wussified down into what is mailable to make the lives of teachers etc easier.

Boys do need to be allowed to be boys....they need real men to be their fathers....they do need a dog or some type of pet of their choice that is theirs and theirs alone to take care of, train and respect..and, they do need to learn respect and responsibility (which doesn't necessarily mean they need a gun imo) within their lives. All good precepts and advice to these groups of Father's and sons.

Maybe the message will catch on...and Father's will think twice before abandoning their son's?

~Mysty

[snagswolf]

A DOG, A GUN & A DAD
Describes my childhood....














...until my dad shot my dog.

[angelicmadrigal]

We weren't blessed with son's...we where blessed with daughters. Reading the OP article though..I can give a nod to the base premise of what this Pastor was trying to get across to these men and their boys. Boys aren't girls, shouldn't be expected to act like girls nor should they be forced to behave as a girl would. Boys are boys..and should be honored as such...not wussified down into what is mailable to make the lives of teachers etc easier.

If it were up to me I'd honestly prefer not to have boys in my classroom. Once I started teaching I realized the logical reason to have boys schools (run by men) and girl's schools (run by women), they do behave differently and would probably benefit more from being in an environment that is conducive to their success, same with girls. Honestly, I get tired of having to tug against the nature of little boys to be loud, rambuncious, overly physical, etc...I get particularly tired of saying "Keep your hands to yourself". So I'd be thrilled not to have to deal with it. Trust me, as much as they get tired of hearing it I am probably 10 times more tired of saying it, since I have to keep repeating it to half a dozen different kids. So yeah the whole idea of boys going to school where they can "be boys" sounds great to me. So if you want to talk about what would make life easier for the teachers you're barking up the wrong tree if you think retraining is easier.

[EnchantedFrog]

Without a dad to properly guide and serve as a role model, two out of three doesn't work.

There's a lot of young men today that have guns (but they're just in case the drug deal
goes bad), and many have dogs (but they use them for dogfighting and gambling.)

[Samm]

Describes my childhood....





...until my dad shot my dog.

What are you whining about... I had to shoot my own dog.

[Samm]

If it were up to me I'd honestly prefer not to have boys in my classroom. Once I started teaching I realized the logical reason to have boys schools (run by men) and girl's schools (run by women), they do behave differently and would probably benefit more from being in an environment that is conducive to their success, same with girls. Honestly, I get tired of having to tug against the nature of little boys to be loud, rambuncious, overly physical, etc...I get particularly tired of saying "Keep your hands to yourself". So I'd be thrilled not to have to deal with it. Trust me, as much as they get tired of hearing it I am probably 10 times more tired of saying it, since I have to keep repeating it to half a dozen different kids. So yeah the whole idea of boys going to school where they can "be boys" sounds great to me. So if you want to talk about what would make life easier for the teachers you're barking up the wrong tree if you think retraining is easier.

Why does none of that surprise me... :neutral:

A fundamental cornerstone of the "war against boys" comes from the reality that most elementary school teachers are women. They want boys to be more like girls... even though nobody believes that they are the same... just because it makes their days in the classroom easier. Is that what they are teaching students in University General Education programs today? That teaching kids is always fun and easy?

And the natural extension of the war on boys is a war on men... men are now expected to be more like women. It is now Politically Incorrect to be a man... a real Man. There was no such thing as a "metro-sexual" before this insidious social experiment was implemented. There are certainly some desirable aspects of suppression of testosterone induced behavior, but the method that has been employed and over all effect is nothing but social emasculation of half of the population to the detriment of the nation.

[camarozz]

We weren't blessed with son's...we where blessed with daughters. Reading the OP article though..I can give a nod to the base premise of what this Pastor was trying to get across to these men and their boys. Boys aren't girls, shouldn't be expected to act like girls nor should they be forced to behave as a girl would. Boys are boys..and should be honored as such...not wussified down into what is mailable to make the lives of teachers etc easier.

Boys do need to be allowed to be boys....they need real men to be their fathers....they do need a dog or some type of pet of their choice that is theirs and theirs alone to take care of, train and respect..and, they do need to learn respect and responsibility (which doesn't necessarily mean they need a gun imo) within their lives. All good precepts and advice to these groups of Father's and sons.

Maybe the message will catch on...and Father's will think twice before abandoning their son's?

~Mysty

Sorry, probably not, too many selfish bastards out there...

[camarozz]

If it were up to me I'd honestly prefer not to have boys in my classroom. Once I started teaching I realized the logical reason to have boys schools (run by men) and girl's schools (run by women), they do behave differently and would probably benefit more from being in an environment that is conducive to their success, same with girls. Honestly, I get tired of having to tug against the nature of little boys to be loud, rambuncious, overly physical, etc...I get particularly tired of saying "Keep your hands to yourself". So I'd be thrilled not to have to deal with it. Trust me, as much as they get tired of hearing it I am probably 10 times more tired of saying it, since I have to keep repeating it to half a dozen different kids. So yeah the whole idea of boys going to school where they can "be boys" sounds great to me. So if you want to talk about what would make life easier for the teachers you're barking up the wrong tree if you think retraining is easier.

You sound just like my sons last teacher... (no disrespect intended) She had a hard time balancing it too. Im still working on him to respect the teachers and try to keep himself under control; or he will continue to get into trouble. :)

[Samm]

You sound just like my sons last teacher... (no disrespect intended) She had a hard time balancing it too. Im still working on him to respect the teachers and try to keep himself under control; or he will continue to get into trouble. :)

No problem... just put him on Ritalin... that is how most teachers like little boys.

[camarozz]

No problem... just put him on Ritalin... that is how most teachers like little boys.

I was "that" close when I was in grade school in the early 70's, my mother took me to a "doctor" and prescribed it for me...

Thank God my father said "HELL NO", of course giving me the business end of the belt helped cut that out.

[camarozz]

Once again, Thank God For Fathers, Father figures, Real men willing to stand up for boys and show them how to be real MEN!

[jeepers]

I think that part of the problem in school is the BS that they've done to recess and lunch. Recess is tiny, lunch is ridiculously short. MAJOR pressure to perform DURING lunch.

Not enough time to burn off some of that energy.

They've even banned 'tag' in most places due to 'risk of injury'. TAG? Ohhh, kids fall down?

And then they wring their hands because Johnny has a hard time sitting still in the classroom. :rolleyes:

Garsh, I wonder why.

[jeepers]

Boys are completly and utterly different than girls in so many way. They certainly do need to be around men, have a dog. Jury is out for me on the gun. That would entirely depend upon the type of 'Dad'.

That being said, can any of you men explain why I found a bowl filled with water and peanuts in my 8 year old's room this afternoon? :lol:

I try not to ponder these things, but I know I'm going to end up asking him, despite my better judgement.

Male brains, female brains...different.

[snagswolf]

What are you whining about... I had to shoot my own dog.
I guess your dad didn't love you.

[EnchantedFrog]

The Boy Scouts can also make a big contribution to a boy's upbringing.
It teaches them a lot of skills, as well as respect and reverence.

[smyrna]

I spent many hours with my father walking and hunting. We camped out, built a fire to stay warm, cooked hotdogs, slept in sleeping bags, didn't bathe...yeah, it was great.

I had daughters. They can shoot, call game, clean a gun and care for their bird dog...Clyde. Maybe one day they will teach these things to their husbands.:D

[angelicmadrigal]

No problem... just put him on Ritalin... that is how most teachers like little boys.

Actually, that's a crock of ****. I think most teachers are aware of the effects of Ritalin on young children and do NOT advocate it's use.

Also, more people are aware that ADD symptoms (or ADD like behavior) can be reduced or elimintated in many cases by:

-change in diet
-more active play at regular intervals during the day
-a healthy sleep schedule

I've also suggested to parents to try an individual physical activity such as martial arts to help develop restraint, body space awareness, and self confidence.

[angelicmadrigal]

The Boy Scouts can also make a big contribution to a boy's upbringing.
It teaches them a lot of skills, as well as respect and reverence.

And how to build huge MEGA fires. Someof the most awe inspiring bondfires I've ever seen were put on by boyscouts.

[angelicmadrigal]

I think that part of the problem in school is the BS that they've done to recess and lunch. Recess is tiny, lunch is ridiculously short. MAJOR pressure to perform DURING lunch.

Not enough time to burn off some of that energy.

They've even banned 'tag' in most places due to 'risk of injury'. TAG? Ohhh, kids fall down?

And then they wring their hands because Johnny has a hard time sitting still in the classroom. :rolleyes:

Garsh, I wonder why.

That's why it's best in my opinion to have a grassy play area and blacktop outside. Also, good play equipment for climbing, swinging, etc.... 30 minutes of physical play in the morning and 30 in the afternoon I think is a good for kids.

Also in Pre-K naptime for younger kids is so important because a lot of boys exhibit ADD symptoms when they are TIRED. I also think kids need quiet free time in the afternoons to choose an activity

[angelicmadrigal]

A fundamental cornerstone of the "war against boys" comes from the reality that most elementary school teachers are women. They want boys to be more like girls... even though nobody believes that they are the same... just because it makes their days in the classroom easier. Is that what they are teaching students in University General Education programs today? That teaching kids is always fun and easy?

Well, you can't have a special set of rules for boys nad a separate set of rules for girls in the same classroom. That just isn't going to happen. Also, if you change it so taht boy's needs are accomodated, then you are ostracizing the girls, why is that okay exactly? Again, moving boys to separate schools with male teachers is the way to go if you want to be fair to everyone.

[angelicmadrigal]

You sound just like my sons last teacher... (no disrespect intended) She had a hard time balancing it too. Im still working on him to respect the teachers and try to keep himself under control; or he will continue to get into trouble. :)


I think it's a problem for a lot of teachers. It's always difficult in any classroom where you have to cater to multiple sets of needs. It's not just boys vs girls, it's also:

advanced students vs non advanced students or students who need extra help
special needs students vs non special needs students
In my classroom I have kids from age 2 and half-Kindergarten

So you're doing multiple balancing acts during the day, and often times some people are better balancing one thing than the other. Personally, I run my class as "These are the rules, they are the same for EVERYONE".

My classes the last few years have been boy heavy. Things get broken more often, more fights occur, there is generally just more going on. "Boys will be boys" has never been an excuse to let things fly with me, and it probably never will be.

Also, I've seen boys be capable of single minded focus when they are interested in something. I've seen boys working cooperatively with other children. I've seen boys be so sweet, and kind, and gentle with a younger child or female student. As individuals I think boys are great, it's as a group when it starts to get tricky, though girls can be like that too.

I also think you and I are on the same page when it comes to teaching boys that you do have to excercise self control. I teach Pre-K and Kindergarten, so that's the age where I think kids really start learning they CAN control their bodies and take control of their emotions. They aren't going to master that by any means, but it's a good start.

And whether or not school is biased towards one gender or another if parents really feel that is the case, the best way to solve it is to send your child to a gender specific school.

[Antrel]

I've never had a father figure embedded in my life. I was raised by a single mother until the day I moved out. When I joined the military, I'd never owned a weapon, let alone fired one. Never had a dad take me hunting or camping. Going through BCT and AIT, I competed with plenty of other recruits who had been raised traditionally and dominated them in every way. I'm here to tell you the concept of gender, and the roles we encourage from it, are ********. A boy doesn't need a dog, gun, or a father. I'd rather raise my children to be adaptive, responsible, and who they desire themselves to be, rather than mold them into a masculine masquerade.

[camarozz]

I think it's a problem for a lot of teachers. It's always difficult in any classroom where you have to cater to multiple sets of needs. It's not just boys vs girls, it's also:

advanced students vs non advanced students or students who need extra help
special needs students vs non special needs students
In my classroom I have kids from age 2 and half-Kindergarten

So you're doing multiple balancing acts during the day, and often times some people are better balancing one thing than the other. Personally, I run my class as "These are the rules, they are the same for EVERYONE".

My classes the last few years have been boy heavy. Things get broken more often, more fights occur, there is generally just more going on. "Boys will be boys" has never been an excuse to let things fly with me, and it probably never will be.

Also, I've seen boys be capable of single minded focus when they are interested in something. I've seen boys working cooperatively with other children. I've seen boys be so sweet, and kind, and gentle with a younger child or female student. As individuals I think boys are great, it's as a group when it starts to get tricky, though girls can be like that too.

I also think you and I are on the same page when it comes to teaching boys that you do have to excercise self control. I teach Pre-K and Kindergarten, so that's the age where I think kids really start learning they CAN control their bodies and take control of their emotions. They aren't going to master that by any means, but it's a good start.

And whether or not school is biased towards one gender or another if parents really feel that is the case, the best way to solve it is to send your child to a gender specific school.


You bet; it is a training thing that can be attained by boys as they mature. Some seem to take longer than others. :) Seems my son is one of those, but this summer he seems to be getting much better. That and his last teacher was brand new, so her experience was really limited im sure; I did not blame her, she is learning too.

Boys will be boys, although that is not a good excuse for causing problems; and I do try to teach him respect, honor, self control, in a way that will not comprimise his personality.

And just in case you havent heard it in a while, thank you for taking on such a responsibility as to put up with parents like me, and teach our children; I have several friends that are teachers and they help me understand that side much better. Sometimes it sounds like a thankless job, but I have nothing but respect for the teachers that try to do a good job, please do not let us parents spoil it for you.

[camarozz]

I've never had a father figure embedded in my life. I was raised by a single mother until the day I moved out. When I joined the military, I'd never owned a weapon, let alone fired one. Never had a dad take me hunting or camping. Going through BCT and AIT, I competed with plenty of other recruits who had been raised traditionally and dominated them in every way. I'm here to tell you the concept of gender, and the roles we encourage from it, are ********. A boy doesn't need a dog, gun, or a father. I'd rather raise my children to be adaptive, responsible, and who they desire themselves to be, rather than mold them into a masculine masquerade.

Um, this isnt a ****ing contest.

It isnt just about learning to shoot, getting a dog, and having a father; that just puts a tangible on the abstract. You can still learn how to be a man without those things, and being a man has nothing to do with being able to shoot. It is what it represents, power with control comes to mind; Respect is another, standing up for ones values, not backing down just to appease, there are many aspects, some of which may be hard for a woman to relate to. (Im talking about testoterone mainly there)

The statement is generically saying that with these things it can make it easier to understand some the important details to being a man; not just masculinity or a "masculine masquerade".

Im glad you feel you turned out to be a good man, and I trust you had a good mother to help you do that; but I firmly believe that it is harder for a woman to instill those values. Dont get me wrong, it isnt impossible. I have known several single mother raised men; and they too are real men.

I hope I was able to express myself to you in the way I intend it. There is no disrepect intended at all with what I said.

Oh, and after I re-read your last sentence, it seems we agree on that point at least.

[angelicmadrigal]

You bet; it is a training thing that can be attained by boys as they mature. Some seem to take longer than others. :) Seems my son is one of those, but this summer he seems to be getting much better.

That's the crazy thing about the summer. Some kids come back at the beginning of the next school year like completely different child.


That and his last teacher was brand new, so her experience was really limited im sure; I did not blame her, she is learning too.
I know for me most of my teaching experience was working with girls, so that's what I'm used to. I know some new teachers don't get a lot of classroom experience before they graduate.

[Pudge]

Fathers are important, and I'm on board with guns, but dogs?

Awful beasts.

[TinCan]

I was "that" close when I was in grade school in the early 70's, my mother took me to a "doctor" and prescribed it for me...

Thank God my father said "HELL NO", of course giving me the business end of the belt helped cut that out.

When our youngest of 3 boys was in school, the school/teacher sent home a note for us to take him to a "psych" doctor for evaluation! It seems they were doing that to basically all of the boys. We took him and lo & behold, the doc said there was nothing wrong with him other than the fact that he just marches to the tune of a different drum. Fast-forward to a couple of years ago when the son tried to join the Army and answering truthfully all of the questions, that supposedly "insignificant" escapade with the psych doc back in elementary school came back to haunt him as he tried to enlist. After a year, they finally agreed that he wasn't a psycho-nut and cleared him to enlist. In the end, he said to hell with the regular Army for now and joined the National Guard. Now, it looks like he wants to finish up college and go OCS for an officer program and go on active duty. :confused:

And here, I thought I raised him up right. Plenty of dogs and guns. Grandparents teaching him how to build and make fires. Surely you would have thought he'd join the Navy or at least the Marine Corps but noooooooo, he joins an Army outfit!

Well, at least he didn't join the Air Force. ;)

[camarozz]

Boys are completly and utterly different than girls in so many way. They certainly do need to be around men, have a dog. Jury is out for me on the gun. That would entirely depend upon the type of 'Dad'.

That being said, can any of you men explain why I found a bowl filled with water and peanuts in my 8 year old's room this afternoon? :lol:

I try not to ponder these things, but I know I'm going to end up asking him, despite my better judgement.

Male brains, female brains...different.

Peanuts float?!

Flash: Idea
In a flash make it happen...

sometimes it works, sometimes it dont. :)

The trick is to get them to think through the idea to be sure no one gets hurt, but allow enough reign to let them be creative.

[camarozz]

When our youngest of 3 boys was in school, the school/teacher sent home a note for us to take him to a "psych" doctor for evaluation! It seems they were doing that to basically all of the boys. We took him and lo & behold, the doc said there was nothing wrong with him other than the fact that he just marches to the tune of a different drum. Fast-forward to a couple of years ago when the son tried to join the Army and answering truthfully all of the questions, that supposedly "insignificant" escapade with the psych doc back in elementary school came back to haunt him as he tried to enlist. After a year, they finally agreed that he wasn't a psycho-nut and cleared him to enlist. In the end, he said to hell with the regular Army for now and joined the National Guard. Now, it looks like he wants to finish up college and go OCS for an officer program and go on active duty. :confused:

And here, I thought I raised him up right. Plenty of dogs and guns. Grandparents teaching him how to build and make fires. Surely you would have thought he'd join the Navy or at least the Marine Corps but noooooooo, he joins an Army outfit!

Well, at least he didn't join the Air Force. ;)

Next to the Marines, the Air Force has the coolest uniforms.;)

[camarozz]

That's the crazy thing about the summer. Some kids come back at the beginning of the next school year like completely different child.

I know for me most of my teaching experience was working with girls, so that's what I'm used to. I know some new teachers don't get a lot of classroom experience before they graduate.

Yeah, it shouldnt take too long to catch on, there are only so many personalities available; once she figures that out, the easier it will be for her. And she will find a diciplinary tactic that will work for those personalities.

Me, I would just make them run, and run, and run and run...

making them sit in a classroom as punishment, will only aggrivate them more and they will still be rowdy.

[angelicmadrigal]

Me, I would just make them run, and run, and run and run...



Well the trick there is you don't want them too tired, because tired kids can get VERY hyper, and you're worse off then when you started.

[camarozz]

Well the trick there is you don't want them too tired, because tired kids can get VERY hyper, and you're worse off then when you started.

Well, maybe I over exagerated that part. :)

I can relate, the more tired I get, the grumpier I get; I really feel for my family putting up with me.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

If it were up to me I'd honestly prefer not to have boys in my classroom. Once I started teaching I realized the logical reason to have boys schools (run by men) and girl's schools (run by women), they do behave differently and would probably benefit more from being in an environment that is conducive to their success, same with girls. Honestly, I get tired of having to tug against the nature of little boys to be loud, rambuncious, overly physical, etc...I get particularly tired of saying "Keep your hands to yourself". So I'd be thrilled not to have to deal with it. Trust me, as much as they get tired of hearing it I am probably 10 times more tired of saying it, since I have to keep repeating it to half a dozen different kids. So yeah the whole idea of boys going to school where they can "be boys" sounds great to me. So if you want to talk about what would make life easier for the teachers you're barking up the wrong tree if you think retraining is easier.

I have to agree that in K-6th, a separation of the sexes within education would produce a much better result then the results we currently see. From Jr High (7th or 8th grade) on, both sexes are more then capable of learning together..and can even foster a form of competition among the group to accelerate the learning of the topic/subject within the group.

As to physical needs of children in K-6...boys need to burn off that excess energy in physical activity. Period..end of story. Harnessing what boys can and can't play on the playground is only making the situation more difficult for the teachers in the classroom once recess is over. Boys need the hard...they need to explore and discover..and fall down, rip open their knee's or scuff up their chins. It feeds them in a way that doesn't feed most girls.
Oh, don't get me wrong..girls do need to have some physical activity scheduled into their day...but boys...they darn well have to have it! Especially if they are expected to sit still and listen for any length of time in a classroom. I agree that K-6, men should teach boys. Not that women are ill equipped to do so; it's what is best for the student and their learning...not the adult egos' of 'females can do whatever a man can do'. Isn't the age of burning the bra over yet? I mean come on ..at some point we have to do what is right by our youngest population...not some male verses female ****ing contest. :rolleyes:

Ritilan...stuff should be outlawed imo. :evil: Worse thing we can do is use a pharmaceutical in order to suppress our boys and their energies. Why not simply have them learn control and respect? Gee..wouldn't that be easier and cheaper then a damn pharmaceutical drug shoved down their throats? Just how well do these kids learn who are on Ritilan anyway? Can't imagine those numbers are real impressive.

Hang in their Arch...your specific profession may come under attack by those on the outside peering in...but know that your job is an important link in the chain that is our society. ;)

~Mysty

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Why does none of that surprise me... :neutral:

A fundamental cornerstone of the "war against boys" comes from the reality that most elementary school teachers are women. They want boys to be more like girls... even though nobody believes that they are the same... just because it makes their days in the classroom easier. Is that what they are teaching students in University General Education programs today? That teaching kids is always fun and easy?

And the natural extension of the war on boys is a war on men... men are now expected to be more like women. It is now Politically Incorrect to be a man... a real Man. There was no such thing as a "metro-sexual" before this insidious social experiment was implemented. There are certainly some desirable aspects of suppression of testosterone induced behavior, but the method that has been employed and over all effect is nothing but social emasculation of half of the population to the detriment of the nation.

And this is assuming that 'all' school aged boys are taught by women right? That all females are in some 'war' with little boys? What about those boys who attend all boy schools? Are they emasculated? Are they beaten into emotional submission to be 'metro-sexual' by their adult male teachers? Come on Sam...that's one hell of a broad brush you've got their buddy...and it's not fair to cover the entire topic with the same color...know what I mean?

The larger issue is a full generation of men who had no main adult male figure present in their lives. For better or for worse, those boys who had a male figure..even a bad example of a present male figure...are much more acclimated and emotional able to deal with this world then boys who were denied a strong male figure..for whatever reason.

I have personal knowledge that certain female archetype personalities are more then capable of raising a boy to a fine adult male. The caveat to that is, the adult male still missed out on an important element to his raising. The well adjusted male will seek out strong male counterparts as friends..and learns from those group interactions. However, not all boys will grow up with such well adjusted female parents that will then grow to well adjusted males that will seek out such companions as adults. It can all go horrifically wrong.

If there is a current war on boys..it's through their Father's..who don't or won't step up to pass along the time honored tradition of Father and son. perhaps those Fathers should be lined up and beaten by the populace at large and told they created their own war? Not beat up the women who choose to stand and raise said boy on her own...flawed or not..she stayed. :think:

Just saying....

~Mysty

[Samm]

Actually, that's a crock of ****. I think most teachers are aware of the effects of Ritalin on young children and do NOT advocate it's use.

Also, more people are aware that ADD symptoms (or ADD like behavior) can be reduced or elimintated in many cases by:

-change in diet
-more active play at regular intervals during the day
-a healthy sleep schedule

I've also suggested to parents to try an individual physical activity such as martial arts to help develop restraint, body space awareness, and self confidence.

IMO... ADD is nothing but a trendy politically correct myth. ADD is what is commonly known as being a kid. Kids are not adults... kids do not respond to situations the same as adults... however, most teachers and other educators want kids to be little adults. Not because it is best for the kids; but because it is best for themselves. Relearn what the teachers prior to the mid 60s knew about maintaining class room decorum and ADD will magically disappear.

[Samm]

I guess your dad didn't love you.

You are the one who apparently harbors hatred for your Dad; not me...

Shooting my dog was a necessity... having my father do it would not have provided the same lesson... my father knew that. She was my dog; my responsibility. Responsibility is one of the things missing from the lessons that children are getting from society today and it is leading us down the drain.

[Samm]

Well, you can't have a special set of rules for boys nad a separate set of rules for girls in the same classroom. That just isn't going to happen. Also, if you change it so taht boy's needs are accomodated, then you are ostracizing the girls, why is that okay exactly? Again, moving boys to separate schools with male teachers is the way to go if you want to be fair to everyone.

How PC... so the answer is to make boys like girls instead of making the girls buck it up a bit and be more like boys. BS! Boys and girls know they are not like each other... they can take two sets of rules as long as they are fair and appropriate... that is exactly how it was before all this "self esteem" and other PC crap infiltrated our schools. "One size fits all" does not work with adults... I don't know why educators think it will work with kids.

[Samm]

Next to the Marines, the Air Force has the coolest uniforms.;)

Pansy ass blue? You have got to be kidding. :))

[Samm]

And this is assuming that 'all' school aged boys are taught by women right? That all females are in some 'war' with little boys? What about those boys who attend all boy schools? Are they emasculated? Are they beaten into emotional submission to be 'metro-sexual' by their adult male teachers? Come on Sam...that's one hell of a broad brush you've got their buddy...and it's not fair to cover the entire topic with the same color...know what I mean?

Read what I said not what you want to believe I said. "...the reality that most elementary school teachers are women."

The truth is, boys are emasculated in elementary school... some time back (in the 70s I believe) somebody did a "study" that said girls were being ignored in the classroom because of more aggressive behavior by boys. Since that time, elementary educators have bent over backwards in favor of girls and simultaneously instituted a policy of suppression of male "aggression." When a woman sociologist - Judith Kleinfeld (http://www.judithkleinfeld.com/) - conducted a clinical study on the subject in the mid 90s that found that the previous study was bunk, she was excoriated by Women Groups and educators alike for being a traitor to womanhood. But her study boar up to peer scrutiny and is now accepted by sociologists as valid - yet educators continue to ignore it and give preference to girls at the detriment of boys.

The larger issue is a full generation of men who had no main adult male figure present in their lives. For better or for worse, those boys who had a male figure..even a bad example of a present male figure...are much more acclimated and emotional able to deal with this world then boys who were denied a strong male figure..for whatever reason.

I have personal knowledge that certain female archetype personalities are more then capable of raising a boy to a fine adult male. The caveat to that is, the adult male still missed out on an important element to his raising. The well adjusted male will seek out strong male counterparts as friends..and learns from those group interactions. However, not all boys will grow up with such well adjusted female parents that will then grow to well adjusted males that will seek out such companions as adults. It can all go horrifically wrong.

If there is a current war on boys..it's through their Father's..who don't or won't step up to pass along the time honored tradition of Father and son. perhaps those Fathers should be lined up and beaten by the populace at large and told they created their own war? Not beat up the women who choose to stand and raise said boy on her own...flawed or not..she stayed. :think:

Just saying....

~Mysty
You have limited your analysis to boys and men... Recent studies have shown that Fathers are equally if not more important to girls learning experience to become well adjusted women. It may not be PC too say so, but the single mother situation is no more (or less) harmful to boys than it is to girls.

[angelicmadrigal]

How PC... so the answer is to make boys like girls instead of making the girls buck it up a bit and be more like boys. BS! Boys and girls know they are not like each other... they can take two sets of rules as long as they are fair and appropriate... that is exactly how it was before all this "self esteem" and other PC crap infiltrated our schools. "One size fits all" does not work with adults... I don't know why educators think it will work with kids.

Nope, I'm not doing it, sorry. If you're so concerned about catering to boys you can start a school for boys, nothing wrong with that. it'd be better off for all involved.

[angelicmadrigal]

IMO... ADD is nothing but a trendy politically correct myth. .
That's your opinion, but I think you're wrong.


Relearn what the teachers prior to the mid 60s knew about maintaining class room decorum and ADD will magically disappear.

Except that there are adults that have been diagnosed with ADD that were in classrooms in the 60's. So it did exist back then, and let me just tell you from people I know that were teaching in the 60's (my grandmother) school wasn't all roses and getting along and good behavior land. So I don'tthink I need to relearn anything, as my classroom runs just fine.

[Samm]

Nope, I'm not doing it, sorry. If you're so concerned about catering to boys you can start a school for boys, nothing wrong with that. it'd be better off for all involved.

That is not the point... what educators should be doing is catering to kids... boys and girls... and quit implementing these harmful social experiments. Each one of these experiments takes 30 years or more to play out... affecting an entire generation of kids, who will carry their "afflictions" into adulthood. Get back into the business of teaching children what they need to know to become productive responsible citizens and quit worrying about their individuality and self esteem. Kids got along just fine before all this PC crap that has been infused into education... and they would do so again if it were eliminated.

[angelicmadrigal]

Kids got along just fine before all this PC crap that has been infused into education... and they would do so again if it were eliminated.

Actually kids weren't "fiine". Also, you can't cater to every groups special needs, you also shouldn't be expected to. A successful classroom is one in which the MAJORITY of students can learn, with remedial assistance being provided through other means for those with other needs. If the classroom is dominated by girls, the boys just have to deal with it. If the class is dominated by boys it's the girls that end up having to suck it up. I've seen it both ways.


And the way my classroom runs is:
1) EVERYONE follows the rules
2) EVERYONE is expected to use their manners
3) EVERYONE is expected to keep the noise level down to a reasonable volume
Sorry, I don't give special exceptions.

What's PC crap, is you expecting boys to be given special consideration, that's just as much PC crap as giving preference to girls.

[Samm]

That's your opinion, but I think you're wrong.



Except that there are adults that have been diagnosed with ADD that were in classrooms in the 60's. So it did exist back then, and let me just tell you from people I know that were teaching in the 60's (my grandmother) school wasn't all roses and getting along and good behavior land. So I don'tthink I need to relearn anything, as my classroom runs just fine.

Yeah... diagnosed by the same people who invented ADD for kids. :rolleyes:

Do you remember when it seemed like everyone was suffering from Epson Barr Syndrome? Now you hardly ever hear the term. The medical/sociological fields are just as susceptible to "trendy maladies" as the trends we see in fashion.

[Samm]

Actually kids weren't fine.

Oh really? That is news to generations upon generations of Americans, including anyone who is over 60, who were never subjected to any of PC education crap. :rolleyes:

[angelicmadrigal]

Yeah... diagnosed by the same people who invented ADD for kids. :rolleyes:
Except, most adults that get diagnosed with ADD if you talk to them knew there was soemthing wrong with them when they were kids, or had extra trouble focusing, siting still etc....So I guesst hey just "invented" those symptoms to please the psychologist. You really are clueless.


Do you remember when it seemed like everyone was suffering from Epson Barr Syndrome? Now you hardly ever hear the term. The medical/sociological fields are just as susceptible to "trendy maladies" as the trends we see in fashion.

You mean Epstien Barr, the thing that lays dormant in your system after you've had mono. Yeah I've heard of it, and they have a test that figures that out now too. I've had the test, tested negitive. I guess maybe you weren't aware.

[angelicmadrigal]

Oh really? That is news to generations upon generations of Americans, including anyone who is over 60, who were never subjected to any of PC education crap. :rolleyes:

Oh you mean how my grandmother was discouraged from taking accounting because she was a girl. Or how my mom was not allowed to take chemistry in HS because it was boys only? Oh yeah, I'm sure they are FINE. Catering to the needs of boys was NEVER detrimental to girls....nope, not ever.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Read what I said not what you want to believe I said. "...the reality that most elementary school teachers are women."

Look at the modern stats dude...what once may have been a predominately 'female' run profession (teaching/education) in past decades is no longer the 'standard' or the norm today. There may be a slightly larger advantage in numbers of women verses men in K-6 education..but nothing like past decades...those numbers for todays' educators equalizes out in grades 7th through 14th. 14th and up through post grad..the numbers are 'mostly men' with fewer women in that profession. Men are regaining strength in numbers in the elementary fields..and not just in admin. :shhh: Oh, and you'd have to actually pick a decade to make any of your statements valid for any given time period. I did read what you said..and commented on what you said. Got a problem with that? :think: Seems like you do. So sorry..didn't mean to throw you off into some frothing at the mouth tirade dude. Mellow out...it's just a discussion topic.

The truth is, boys are emasculated in elementary school... some time back (in the 70s I believe) somebody did a "study" that said girls were being ignored in the classroom because of more aggressive behavior by boys. Since that time, elementary educators have bent over backwards in favor of girls and simultaneously instituted a policy of suppression of male "aggression." When a woman sociologist - Judith Kleinfeld (http://www.judithkleinfeld.com/) - conducted a clinical study on the subject in the mid 90s that found that the previous study was bunk, she was excoriated by Women Groups and educators alike for being a traitor to womanhood. But her study boar up to peer scrutiny and is now accepted by sociologists as valid - yet educators continue to ignore it and give preference to girls at the detriment of boys.

bolded, underlined and italics are mine: Question: Example of this please? If there is one.

Please pick a decade and apply it then to your broad brush statements that I replied to in the first place Sam. Maybe I hit a nerve or something? I have no idea...but you obviously have a set of opinions on the broader 'emasculation' of males in our society in the present that I simply dont' agree with. That's ok ya know..have our set of opinions...just don't expect other to jump onto your bus without questioning your set of opinions...I believe it's what is affectionately known as 'debate'.

Early decades...40's, 50's 60's and even 70's...you may very well have a point. Education and understanding base elementary children development has changed drastically since the 60's, 70's, 80's and even the 90's. Educators have become quiet keenly aware of what is working and what does not work. The whole culture of PC-ism brought more ruin to all elementary students then any amount of supposed emasculation by nurse ratchet female teachers could possible intimate within the classroom setting. Add Paranoid parents who jump at any chance to save their precious darling (read monster brat) child from said nurse ratchet teacher is also 'part' of the problem. Regardless if that teacher is a male or female. Meaning...and bottom line..there are far to many factors within this topic to pick on just one area and call it the base of the issue. Female Teachers alone are far from the only issue...and simple don't have that kind of power to change an entire generation of males to be wimpy wussified mamby pamby Momma's boys...:rolleyes:

Anyone in this day in age that thinks boys and girls are the same should have their head examined. That's like saying cats and dogs are the same domesticated animal. It's stupid and a wrong way premise to set any standard upon; especially education. (which if you didn't catch it the first time, I was supporting/agreeing part of your base opinion.) Boys 'should' be taught separately from girls in the K-6 ages. period. It would be best for both gender brackets.


You have limited your analysis to boys and men... Recent studies have shown that Fathers are equally if not more important to girls learning experience to become well adjusted women. It may not be PC too say so, but the single mother situation is no more (or less) harmful to boys than it is to girls.

Well that's the first time it's been pointed out that I was 'limited' in my post reply. lol. Hell, usually I go to long. I was giving a specific opinion within a specific stated topic. I could go on and on in this topic..but why? You wouldn't' give it any credence anyway. :shhh:

and btw: We weren't talking about daughters...were we? We were talking about boys/sons. No one mentioned anything about daughters and fathers did they? No..they didn't. Is there any equally important topic about daughters and fathers? yes..there is. But that's not this topic in this thread is it? :eh: Way to derail to try and prove out a point. :eh:

*sigh* Single Mothers: The most vilified, the most hated and broad brushed group known to our society..Somehow, due to one status of 'single' they all get lumped into one big pot of goo. Are there good single mothers out there that do a stellar job in raising their children (both males and females)? You bet there are. Are there total waste of skins out there posing as mothers, ruining their son's and daughters? You betcha. And...so? Your greater point in that is what again?

Perhaps you should turn some of those well seeded idea's and opinions of yours and apply it to this generation of men that have abandoned their son's...and their daughters? perhaps the first line of defense in the supposed opinion of yours that modern day emasculation of males... could be stopped by modern man acting like real men? not players...not big mamby pamby babies? not emotional wrecks of human beings..but real men? But hey...let's not keep it simple right?

~Mysty

[Samm]

Actually kids weren't "fiine". Also, you can't cater to every groups special needs, you also shouldn't be expected to. A successful classroom is one in which the MAJORITY of students can learn, with remedial assistance being provided through other means for those with other needs. If the classroom is dominated by girls, the boys just have to deal with it. If the class is dominated by boys it's the girls that end up having to suck it up. I've seen it both ways.


And the way my classroom runs is:
1) EVERYONE follows the rules
2) EVERYONE is expected to use their manners
3) EVERYONE is expected to keep the noise level down to a reasonable volume
Sorry, I don't give special exceptions.

What's PC crap, is you expecting boys to be given special consideration, that's just as much PC crap as giving preference to girls.

I am NOT expecting that boys should be given special consideration... I am expecting that they not be given special consideration; at least not the special consideration that you educators are giving them. It is the special consideration of suppression of their natural tendencies and abilities to make them act and learn more like girls that I am objecting to. Quit treating kids like they are cut from rolled cookie dough; treat them individually without the prejudice of your idea of what model they should conform to. Boys are different than girls; they act differently and they even learn differently... deal with it; don't attempt to "cure" boys of the "malady" of being a boy. (It brings to mind the misplaced, but well intended idea of trying to "cure" someone of the "malady" of being homosexual... :think: )

This is somewhat similar to the question of whether an act by someone against another is racist or not... exchange the adjectives "black" and "white" and see if it changes your response to the question. Would it be any more acceptable to make girls behave like boys and force them try to learn like boys than what you educators are doing today to boys? No... of course it would not be acceptable, so why are you defending the reverse of that hypothetical?

[Samm]

Oh you mean how my grandmother was discouraged from taking accounting because she was a girl. Or how my mom was not allowed to take chemistry in HS because it was boys only? Oh yeah, I'm sure they are FINE. Catering to the needs of boys was NEVER detrimental to girls....nope, not ever.

That is an entirely different issue... it has nothing to do with anything we have discussed. And it is as "yesterday" as Jim Crow.

[Samm]

Look at the modern stats dude...what once may have been a predominately 'female' run profession (teaching/education) in past decades is no longer the 'standard' or the norm today. There may be a slightly larger advantage in numbers of women verses men in K-6 education..but nothing like past decades...those numbers for todays' educators equalizes out in grades 7th through 14th. 14th and up through post grad..the numbers are 'mostly men' with fewer women in that profession. Men are regaining strength in numbers in the elementary fields..and not just in admin. :shhh: Oh, and you'd have to actually pick a decade to make any of your statements valid for any given time period. I did read what you said..and commented on what you said. Got a problem with that? :think: Seems like you do. So sorry..didn't mean to throw you off into some frothing at the mouth tirade dude. Mellow out...it's just a discussion topic.


bolded, underlined and italics are mine: Question: Example of this please? If there is one.

Please pick a decade and apply it then to your broad brush statements that I replied to in the first place Sam. Maybe I hit a nerve or something? I have no idea...but you obviously have a set of opinions on the broader 'emasculation' of males in our society in the present that I simply dont' agree with. That's ok ya know..have our set of opinions...just don't expect other to jump onto your bus without questioning your set of opinions...I believe it's what is affectionately known as 'debate'.

Early decades...40's, 50's 60's and even 70's...you may very well have a point. Education and understanding base elementary children development has changed drastically since the 60's, 70's, 80's and even the 90's. Educators have become quiet keenly aware of what is working and what does not work. The whole culture of PC-ism brought more ruin to all elementary students then any amount of supposed emasculation by nurse ratchet female teachers could possible intimate within the classroom setting. Add Paranoid parents who jump at any chance to save their precious darling (read monster brat) child from said nurse ratchet teacher is also 'part' of the problem. Regardless if that teacher is a male or female. Meaning...and bottom line..there are far to many factors within this topic to pick on just one area and call it the base of the issue. Female Teachers alone are far from the only issue...and simple don't have that kind of power to change an entire generation of males to be wimpy wussified mamby pamby Momma's boys...:rolleyes:

Anyone in this day in age that thinks boys and girls are the same should have their head examined. That's like saying cats and dogs are the same domesticated animal. It's stupid and a wrong way premise to set any standard upon; especially education. (which if you didn't catch it the first time, I was supporting/agreeing part of your base opinion.) Boys 'should' be taught separately from girls in the K-6 ages. period. It would be best for both gender brackets.




Well that's the first time it's been pointed out that I was 'limited' in my post reply. lol. Hell, usually I go to long. I was giving a specific opinion within a specific stated topic. I could go on and on in this topic..but why? You wouldn't' give it any credence anyway. :shhh:

and btw: We weren't talking about daughters...were we? We were talking about boys/sons. No one mentioned anything about daughters and fathers did they? No..they didn't. Is there any equally important topic about daughters and fathers? yes..there is. But that's not this topic in this thread is it? :eh: Way to derail to try and prove out a point. :eh:

*sigh* Single Mothers: The most vilified, the most hated and broad brushed group known to our society..Somehow, due to one status of 'single' they all get lumped into one big pot of goo. Are there good single mothers out there that do a stellar job in raising their children (both males and females)? You bet there are. Are there total waste of skins out there posing as mothers, ruining their son's and daughters? You betcha. And...so? Your greater point in that is what again?

Perhaps you should turn some of those well seeded idea's and opinions of yours and apply it to this generation of men that have abandoned their son's...and their daughters? perhaps the first line of defense in the supposed opinion of yours that modern day emasculation of males... could be stopped by modern man acting like real men? not players...not big mamby pamby babies? not emotional wrecks of human beings..but real men? But hey...let's not keep it simple right?

~Mysty

I'm sorry that you seem to be intent on reading so much more into what I have said that I actually have. Talk about broad brushing... you have gone so far afield I cannot even respond to this post.

And sorry you are taking this so emotionally; I certainly am not. Mellow out...it's just a discussion topic.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I'm sorry that you seem to be intent on reading so much more into what I have said that I actually have. Talk about broad brushing... you have gone so far afield I cannot even respond to this post.

And sorry you are taking this so emotionally; I certainly am not. Mellow out...it's just a discussion topic.

Nice try...best you can do when called on broad brush statements that span decades in time? Hey..no sweat off my brow...really.

First it was a complaint of to short a reply...now it's a complaint of to long a reply...keeps it simple for you doesn't it? You don't have to answer to anything you just push out there...isn't that convenient. Hey...that's cool..it's how you roll I guess.

Oh...and you should turn that mirror around and take a good long look at whose having what type of response...:think:

~Mysty

[angelicmadrigal]

This is somewhat similar to the question of whether an act by someone against another is racist or not... exchange the adjectives "black" and "white" and see if it changes your response to the question. Would it be any more acceptable to make girls behave like boys and force them try to learn like boys than what you educators are doing today to boys? No... of course it would not be acceptable, so why are you defending the reverse of that hypothetical?

Ah but what you're saying is boys have special learning needs that need to be accomodated. No one differeniates that between blacks and whites to any credible degree, so it's not the same comparison.

Well you're free to do whatever you want with your child. I'm simply telling you that what you think will not effect what I will and will not do, because frankly I think your line of reasoning is crap. And if you can't handle the fact that wanting boys to "be abke to act like boys" isn't a special consideration then I really have nothing esle to say to you.

[angelicmadrigal]

That is an entirely different issue... it has nothing to do with anything we have discussed. And it is as "yesterday" as Jim Crow.

Again, I call ********. You said in the 60's education was just fine. Well I don't consider excluding girls as just fine. yet when boys are the subject of unfair treatment it gets your panties in a bunch.

[camarozz]

Samm, I think I understand what you are saying.

No special treatment, remember girls and boys are different. But there needs to be consitant rules. I also believe that ADD and ADHD (which I was diagnosed in the '70's) is over diagnosed, but this is where fathers come in and are needed. I also think that drugs are over perscribed for these conditions too. Once again Im thankful my father did not allow these drugs to be fed to me, and he was willing to teach me respect and self control.

Girls also need their fathers, just as much as boys; raising children should include a balance of both parents. And we need to be involved, we need to know what our children are being taught, help with homework, question respectfully what is happening to our children in school.

I had a principal that could not handle my son, even with his "psychology" minor. I was really close to giving him the what for over that. Obviously it did not help him to understand my son at all. I also had "psychology" in college and found it completely subjective. It did not help him in dealing with my son at all.

[angelicmadrigal]

I also believe that ADD and ADHD (which I was diagnosed in the '70's) is over diagnosed, but this is where fathers come in and are needed.

Ah, but that's where you and Samm differ over diagnosed is NOT the same thing as believing it's a complete fabrication.

I would agree with you it's overdiagnosed and overmedicated. I've provided some very CONCRETE examples in this thread of things to try to minimize ADD symptoms (or ADD like symptoms) in children. If some people are too stupid or lazy to attempt it, and would rather write off the behaviors as behavior that should be accepted that's their problem not mine. Their kids can reap the consequences later on for it.

I don't necessarily believe a child needs a father and mother. I know kids personally that go through life with one parent end up perfectly well adjusted. However, during certain critical years I think it helps to have someone in your life that is the same gender as you (a father,mother. grandmother, grandfather, uncle,aunt teacher, scout master/troop leader) to offer guidance and support. I'd also like to mention that a two parent household does not necessarily gaurantee you love and support as a child.

[angelicmadrigal]

Girls also need their fathers, just as much as boys; raising children should include a balance of both parents. And we need to be involved, we need to know what our children are being taught, help with homework, question respectfully what is happening to our children in school.


Some parents just aren't capable of being parents. For instance a good friend of mine who's parents were drug addicts when he was younger. Having two parents or even one does not garuntee a family life conducive to a child's growth and development. My friend pretty much was raised by himself.

[Samm]

Nice try...best you can do when called on broad brush statements that span decades in time? Hey..no sweat off my brow...really.

First it was a complaint of to short a reply...now it's a complaint of to long a reply...keeps it simple for you doesn't it? You don't have to answer to anything you just push out there...isn't that convenient. Hey...that's cool..it's how you roll I guess.

Oh...and you should turn that mirror around and take a good long look at whose having what type of response...:think:

~Mysty

I don't know why you are taking this discussion so personally, but obviously nothing I can say will make you happy so...

[Samm]

Ah but what you're saying is boys have special learning needs that need to be accomodated. No one differeniates that between blacks and whites to any credible degree, so it's not the same comparison.

Well you're free to do whatever you want with your child. I'm simply telling you that what you think will not effect what I will and will not do, because frankly I think your line of reasoning is crap. And if you can't handle the fact that wanting boys to "be abke to act like boys" isn't a special consideration then I really have nothing esle to say to you.

I am not saying that... I am saying that boys and girl both learn differently... if you apply to special needs statement to boys you must also apply it to girls. And boys being allowed to act like boys is no more accommodating than allowing girls to act like girls. If a teacher does not recognize either of those facts, they are doing half of the classroom a disservice. If you cannot accept that truth perhaps you should not be a teacher.

[Samm]

Again, I call ********. You said in the 60's education was just fine. Well I don't consider excluding girls as just fine. yet when boys are the subject of unfair treatment it gets your panties in a bunch.

Again... read what I said, not what you would like to think I said... I said in response to your "actually kids weren't fine" with "that is news to generations upon generations of Americans, including anyone who is over 60, who were never subjected to any of PC education crap." Where did I say education was just fine? - not that it wasn't - Where did I say girls were ever excluded or should be? - not that they were -

What I said was that the kids got along just fine when they became adults without all the PC crap that the education industry throws at them today.

You and Mysty are so blinded by your personal feeling on this subject that you cannot even read properly. This started out as a simple discussion... you two have changed in into a personal battle. The only panties in a bunch are yours honey.

[Samm]

Samm, I think I understand what you are saying.

No special treatment, remember girls and boys are different. But there needs to be consitant rules. I also believe that ADD and ADHD (which I was diagnosed in the '70's) is over diagnosed, but this is where fathers come in and are needed. I also think that drugs are over perscribed for these conditions too. Once again Im thankful my father did not allow these drugs to be fed to me, and he was willing to teach me respect and self control.

Girls also need their fathers, just as much as boys; raising children should include a balance of both parents. And we need to be involved, we need to know what our children are being taught, help with homework, question respectfully what is happening to our children in school.

I had a principal that could not handle my son, even with his "psychology" minor. I was really close to giving him the what for over that. Obviously it did not help him to understand my son at all. I also had "psychology" in college and found it completely subjective. It did not help him in dealing with my son at all.

Thanks camarozz... I was beginning to think everybody in this thread had lost their minds. Yes... boys and girls are different and should allowed to be different. And as you have repeated from my earlier statement, fathers are just as important to girls (possibly more so, if you believe the recent studies) than they are to boys. Certainly some children have behavioral "problems" that cause them trouble in a regimented setting (call it ADD or any other damn thing you want) but to diagnose the symptoms of those problems with up to half the classroom simply because they do not conform to the "modern" decorum of the "modern" classroom and feeding them drugs to make them conform is ridiculous to say the least and seriously damaging at worst.

My youngest daughter was a "non conformist" (apparently she acted and learned more like the boys) and as a result received the wrath of conformist teachers. This is not just a boy thing... any "square peg" has to be "whittled round" before the "establishment" educators are happy. Fortunately, we were involved enough in the schools that we were mostly able to pick and choose which teachers she was subjected too, and ultimately, she succeeded brilliantly in an alternative setting... without drugs.

[angelicmadrigal]

And boys being allowed to act like boys is no more accommodating than allowing girls to act like girls.

There are rules for a REASON, if you don't understand them that isn't MY problem. The rules are the same for EVERYONE. If the rule is you keep your hands to yourself, then you keep your hands to yourself, I don't care if you're a boy or a girl. If the rule is use your manners at the table, I don't care if you're a boy or a girl.


If you cannot accept that truth perhaps you should not be a teacher.

If you can't see that expecting different rules for different kids isn't detrimental to the order of the classroom, then you have no bussiness talking about what you think a good teacher should be doing, since you OBVIOUSLY have no clue.

[sgtmac_46]

Soon the schools will be removing the urinals so everyone has to pee sitting down.

[angelicmadrigal]

Thanks camarozz... I was beginning to think everybody in this thread had lost their minds. Yes... boys and girls are different and should allowed to be different. And as you have repeated from my earlier statement, fathers are just as important to girls (possibly more so, if you believe the recent studies) than they are to boys. Certainly some children have behavioral "problems" that cause them trouble in a regimented setting (call it ADD or any other damn thing you want) but to diagnose the symptoms of those problems with up to half the classroom simply because they do not conform to the "modern" decorum of the "modern" classroom and feeding them drugs to make them conform is ridiculous to say the least and seriously damaging at worst.
.

If parents don't like how children are expected to behave in school they can always homeschool, or send them to a school which is more in line with their value system. Also, I've provided several concrete examples how to manage a child's behavior w/o the use of prescription medication, evidently you have something against outside play time, a good diet, and adequate rest.

Also, when you're in a group with 15-18 other people you don't always get to do things your way. That is the way it is, period. In our scoiety there are certain things you HAVE to confrom to or risk punishment. For example we ALL (at any age) have to obey the law or risk the consequences. I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with teaching kids from an early age that certain things are just non-negotiable. For example, "bathroom language is not acceptable". In my class bathroom language is simply not tolerated, pre-K and K age students have NO reason to be using those sorts of words.

My general policy about rough play outside is don't really care within reason. We have grass so if they want to roll around and jump on each other, I don't really care. However, there is a point where it gets out of hand, and then I put my foot down. There's no reason to grab another kid so hard you leave a handmark on their arm, or for scratching and biting. I'm not goignt o let boys get away witht hat because "rough play"or "aggressive play" should be expected out of boys.

[angelicmadrigal]

Soon the schools will be removing the urinals so everyone has to pee sitting down.

We dont' have a urinal in our classroom, and the boys pee standing up. I guess some people can't pee in a toliet while standing.

[sgtmac_46]

If parents don't like how children are expected to behave in school they can always homeschool, or send them to a school which is more in line with their value system. Also, I've provided several concrete examples how to manage a child's behavior w/o the use of prescription medication, evidently you have something against outside play time, a good diet, and adequate rest.

Also, when you're in a group with 15-18 other people you don't always get to do things your way. That is the way it is, period. In our scoiety there are certain things you HAVE to confrom to or risk punishment. For example we ALL (at any age) have to obey the law or risk the consequences. I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with teaching kids from an early age that certain things are just non-negotiable. For example, "bathroom language is not acceptable". In my class bathroom language is simply not tolerated, pre-K and K age students have NO reason to be using those sorts of words.

My general policy about rough play outside is don't really care within reason. We have grass so if they want to roll around and jump on each other, I don't really care. However, there is a point where it gets out of hand, and then I put my foot down. There's no reason to grab another kid so hard you leave a handmark on their arm, or for scratching and biting. I'm not goignt o let boys get away witht hat because "rough play"or "aggressive play" should be expected out of boys.
Not terribly unreasonable.........a degree of rough play should be tolerated on the part of boys, but there is a limit.

[sgtmac_46]

We dont' have a urinal in our classroom, and the boys pee standing up. I guess some people can't pee in a toliet while standing.

Some people can't pee standing up........usually women, but I do know a gal.....

[angelicmadrigal]

Not terribly unreasonable.........a degree of rough play should be tolerated on the part of boys, but there is a limit.

Exactly, when there is a legitimate risk of significant bodily injury that's the point where you step in as a teacher and say "No, I don't think so." Also when it gets to the point where kids really start fighting and it's not playing anymore (which at that age is a fairly common escalation of rough housing) that's when it needs to stop, and they need to find something else to do.

[angelicmadrigal]

Some people can't pee standing up........usually women, but I do know a gal.....

Well I meant boys. I'm thinking there have been a few girls that have tried the whole peeing standing up thing, which is one of the reasons why our toliet gets pee in weird places. Though I still haven't figured out who's been walking behind the toliet and peeing back there. ::sighs:: We had this kid that used to pee in the trashcan, took me forever to find out why the bathroom smelled like pee everyday, until we started putting white bags in the trash.

[camarozz]

Thanks camarozz... I was beginning to think everybody in this thread had lost their minds. Yes... boys and girls are different and should allowed to be different. And as you have repeated from my earlier statement, fathers are just as important to girls (possibly more so, if you believe the recent studies) than they are to boys. Certainly some children have behavioral "problems" that cause them trouble in a regimented setting (call it ADD or any other damn thing you want) but to diagnose the symptoms of those problems with up to half the classroom simply because they do not conform to the "modern" decorum of the "modern" classroom and feeding them drugs to make them conform is ridiculous to say the least and seriously damaging at worst.

My youngest daughter was a "non conformist" (apparently she acted and learned more like the boys) and as a result received the wrath of conformist teachers. This is not just a boy thing... any "square peg" has to be "whittled round" before the "establishment" educators are happy. Fortunately, we were involved enough in the schools that we were mostly able to pick and choose which teachers she was subjected too, and ultimately, she succeeded brilliantly in an alternative setting... without drugs.


Those "conformist" teachers are the ones that make me nervous and at times furious. Hense the principle story... The only thing I would have changed about the meeting is to confront him on the "psych" thing after my wife and son left.

You sound like you understand well where Im comming from. I too feel a "non-conformist" attitude and it shows. My children have picked up on it, and especially my son. He is the one that we spend the most time with when it comes to school work. We also continually work with him on his responses, how he needs to respond to situations and not just mouth off. That is what gets him in trouble the most. :)

I realized at a young age, and more so when I had my first child. She would need me to show her what a man is like, and should be. I just hope that I have done right by her in that way, we have talked plenty of times so I think she understands. But so far her decisions have not been very good, but she is 19 this year and I have tried to let those reigns out alot this year. :) (that was harder than I thought)

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

I don't know why you are taking this discussion so personally, but obviously nothing I can say will make you happy so...

Sam....I'm not taking it personal. Honest. We are discussing a topic...aren't we? :think: There's no emotion..just me typing away on a key board. I'm assertive and tenacious when my interest is peeked on a topic...which is all your seeing in my responses. :dance: I'll even send ya a hug...:hug:There...all better?

You made a base claim in one of your earliest posts..one I've challenged in it's veracity. The emasculation of males...and by whom of all groups do you site for this issue? Female teachers. I don't happen to agree with that. I don't see where the power structure is so high in just that one profession that they have that type of power. Parents...(most of them) now there's the power...and the education system knows it. ;) That observation is based on modern/present day. Was it different in past decades? Mmmm...maybe? But men who are in their late 50's and early 60's are not sited as 'emasculated' or wussified...are they? I don't think so.

Now..reading my responses to your specific posts on the emasculation of males in our present society...and who you claim is responsible...do my responses then make sense to you? We do agree on some similar post points...but you keep missing why I'm responding to your base premise. So...here's a attempt to clear it up.

A...we both agree a boy needs a male role model to help mold and shape said boy into a healthy adjusted adult male. One size does not fit all..granted..but there is a brotherhood of sorts that takes in the base foundation of what a healthy male is, and should be allowed to apply it in present day at it pertains to raising of boys to men.

B...we both agree boys and girls learn differently in the K-6 module. Each gender should be taught separately imo... yet just as aggressively and at set standards for their age and educational level. It would benefit both genders immensely to do so imo. PC-ism is more the issue in the educational system then any amount of 'female' teachers. But that is just my opinion.

C...What is not needed is a forced system of medication for boys in order for them to 'behave' in the class room using current pharmaceuticals. Making a child docile so the teacher's job is easier...well, I just don't agree with that. Parents who allow school admin's to push meds onto their child...need to be taken out back and shot!

D...when dealing with children and their development, a program..or curriculum if you will, must be in place in order to ensure the best outcome of said students. We agree that parents need to be as vested in their child's education and understand what that program is. Having a male or female teacher isn't the issue here...having an PC ideology that boys and girls are the same..is.

E...boys need a sense of responsibility..but not over just anything. It has to have weight..it has to have meaning..it has to be special. So, scouting, going shooting or learning to shoot, having a dog that they are solely responsible for...getting a small job (like mowing lawns or delivering the paper), joining scouts or playing sports.. are all part of the building blocks that builds a boys healthy development..and are patently important.

F...Girls...(although not part of your base premise of the emasculation of males by female teachers...nor presented as part of the OP... is a topic all in itself)...do need strong role models, both male and female, to grow to healthy adult women. No argument there. "Keep um off the pole' comes to mind on this topic in another thread we had no so long ago. :shhh:

Now...you take it from there.

~Mysty

[Samm]

There are rules for a REASON, if you don't understand them that isn't MY problem. The rules are the same for EVERYONE. If the rule is you keep your hands to yourself, then you keep your hands to yourself, I don't care if you're a boy or a girl. If the rule is use your manners at the table, I don't care if you're a boy or a girl.

If you can't see that expecting different rules for different kids isn't detrimental to the order of the classroom, then you have no bussiness talking about what you think a good teacher should be doing, since you OBVIOUSLY have no clue.

I agree... the rules in a "conventional" classroom (which yours apparently is) are the same for everybody... intended to make all the students behave like good little girls... to make all the students learn like good little girls... for the benefit of good little girls... all because the education system bought into a false premise in the 70s that schools were putting little girls at a disadvantage and has continued to do so in the face of solid clinical studies that show the opposite.

I really don't care what you think I think or how clueless you think I am... the PC school adgenda of today treats little boys like wild beasts who must be broken and retrained for a polite society... to grow up to be good little, as Arnold calls them, "girlie men."

[Samm]

A...we both agree a boy needs a male role model to help mold and shape said boy into a healthy adjusted adult male. One size does not fit all..granted..but there is a brotherhood of sorts that takes in the base foundation of what a healthy male is, and should be allowed to apply it in present day at it pertains to raising of boys to men.

B...we both agree boys and girls learn differently in the K-6 module. Each gender should be taught separately imo... yet just as aggressively and at set standards for their age and educational level. It would benefit both genders immensely to do so imo. PC-ism is more the issue in the educational system then any amount of 'female' teachers. But that is just my opinion.

C...What is not needed is a forced system of medication for boys in order for them to 'behave' in the class room using current pharmaceuticals. Making a child docile so the teacher's job is easier...well, I just don't agree with that. Parents who allow school admin's to push meds onto their child...need to be taken out back and shot!

D...when dealing with children and their development, a program..or curriculum if you will, must be in place in order to ensure the best outcome of said students. We agree that parents need to be as vested in their child's education and understand what that program is. Having a male or female teacher isn't the issue here...having an PC ideology that boys and girls are the same..is.

E...boys need a sense of responsibility..but not over just anything. It has to have weight..it has to have meaning..it has to be special. So, scouting, going shooting or learning to shoot, having a dog that they are solely responsible for...getting a small job (like mowing lawns or delivering the paper), joining scouts or playing sports.. are all part of the building blocks that builds a boys healthy development..and are patently important.

F...Girls...(although not part of your base premise of the emasculation of males by female teachers...nor presented as part of the OP... is a topic all in itself)...do need strong role models, both male and female, to grow to healthy adult women. No argument there. "Keep um off the pole' comes to mind on this topic in another thread we had no so long ago. :shhh:

Now...you take it from there.

~Mysty

Why didn't you just say so to begin with? ;)

[angelicmadrigal]

I agree... the rules in a "conventional" classroom (which yours apparently is) are the same for everybody... intended to make all the students behave like good little girls... to make all the students learn like good little girls... for the benefit of good little girls... all because the education system bought into a false premise in the 70s that schools were putting little girls at a disadvantage and has continued to do so in the face of solid clinical studies that show the opposite.


There you have it folks boys shouldn't be expected to use their manners simply because they're boys. Boys using manners makes them behave like little girls. What a crock of ****.

[angelicmadrigal]

I really don't care what you think I think or how clueless you think I am... the PC school adgenda of today treats little boys like wild beasts who must be broken and retrained for a polite society... to grow up to be good little, as Arnold calls them, "girlie men."

And just because you don't care doesn't change the truth, that again you have NO idea what you're talking about.

[Samm]

There you have it folks boys shouldn't be expected to use their manners simply because they're boys. Boys using manners makes them behave like little girls. What a crock of ****.

And there you have it folks one of the many reasons this country is falling apart... Politically Correct Public Education. :rolleyes:

[Samm]

And just because you don't care doesn't change the truth, that again you have NO idea what you're talking about.

Says you. :razz:

For an educator... your grammar and spelling is terrible. ;)

[angelicmadrigal]

Says you. :razz:

For an educator... your grammar and spelling is terrible. ;)

And? I'm not in the classroom right now so I don't have to worry about it. What I say or how I choose to say it in MY freetime has NOTHING to do with how I am in the classroom.

[angelicmadrigal]

And there you have it folks one of the many reasons this country is falling apart... Politically Correct Public Education. :rolleyes:

Expecting children to use manners is a given. I think back in the olden days (when you seem to think things were sooooo great) they expected children to use there manners, and respect authority.

If you want children to grow up to be mannerless little heathens that isn't my problem, but it's not happening on my watch.

[camarozz]

Expecting children to use manners is a given. I think back in the olden days (when you seem to think things were sooooo great) they expected children to use there manners, and respect authority.

If you want children to grow up to be mannerless little heathens that isn't my problem, but it's not happening on my watch.

Basically what I was taught... To be respectful, by using mannors. Also taught to respect authority, but feel free to question it.

[Samm]

Basically what I was taught... To be respectful, by using mannors. Also taught to respect authority, but feel free to question it.

Amen.