LRO sees Apollo 14 landing site: manmade artifacts and tracks present...

[Darkblade]

uh oh; moon landing hoax theorists! looks like the gig is up!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090717150244.htm

The Apollo 14 lunar module (LM Antares) and the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiment Package are visible in this image (note the astronaut tracks between the two artifacts). At the current altitude and lighting the descent stage is clearly visible with its angular shadow (right) and shadow cast by leg (near arrow tip).

the resolution will only get better too once engineering calibrations and orbit adjustments are finished.

Though it had been expected that LRO would be able to resolve the remnants of the Apollo missions, these first images came prior to the spacecraft reaching its final mapping orbit. As the orbit of LRO is lowered, LROC will receive many more opportunities to image the landing sites in the weeks to come. The resolution of future LROC images of these sites will improve by two to three times.

[Darkblade]

whatchu goin' a do; whatchu goin' a do when the LRO comes for you?

[Drawz]

First off, the "jig" is up. :)

Second, they'll just claim that the photos are fake, same as they do with the film and photos from the original moon missions.

[Darkblade]

what about when the indian probe takes photos at even higher resolution?

[Darkblade]

or the chinese?

[Drawz]

You'll never convince a cospiracy theorist that his conspiracy is bunk because of the number of people who would need to be involved in it to make it work. There's always a small group at the top pulling the strings who are unwilling aided by the witless drones lower down the ladder.

[StoneScratcher]

uh oh; moon landing hoax theorists! looks like the gig is up!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090717150244.htm



the resolution will only get better too once engineering calibrations and orbit adjustments are finished.

I zoomed in and saw a knocked over beach umbrella and a beach chair.

I, personally, do not believe any modern man landed on the moon.

But no where did I say that no man ever landed on the moon. Just modern man hasn't.

Frankly, I don't care what anyone says to me, or about me in this regard. Doesn't bother me in the least.

So, as others have said on this thread--many may not accept any image given as proof of modern man landing on the moon.

The only way I'll believe it is if there is a way for ANY person to VIEW THE ENTIRE SURFACE of the moon with a LIVE feed of the surface--no buffers.

That way every person on the moon's closest neighbor can view, independent from INTERPRETATION and CROPPING of image.

[Drawz]

I zoomed in and saw a knocked over beach umbrella and a beach chair.

I, personally, do not believe any modern man landed on the moon.

But no where did I say that no man ever landed on the moon. Just modern man hasn't.

Frankly, I don't care what anyone says to me, or about me in this regard. Doesn't bother me in the least.

So, as others have said on this thread--many may not accept any image given as proof of modern man landing on the moon.

The only way I'll believe it is if there is a way for ANY person to VIEW THE ENTIRE SURFACE of the moon with a LIVE feed of the surface--no buffers.

That way every person on the moon's closest neighbor can view, independent from INTERPRETATION and CROPPING of image.

How could you trust a so called "live feed"? It could be faked as well.

What non modern men do you think may have walked on the moon?

[King Cantona]

You'll never convince a cospiracy theorist that his conspiracy is bunk because of the number of people who would need to be involved in it to make it work. There's always a small group at the top pulling the strings who are unwilling aided by the witless drones lower down the ladder.

Funnily enough this is one of the reasons I am so convinced that the moon missions really happened, I lived through it and I remember it so I already KNEW it happened...

But one thing these crackpot theorists don't seem to realise is that if you tell a secret to one person there's a chance it will become common knowlege and if you tell 2 people the chances of it becoming common knowledge increase exponentially...

The number of people involved in this so called conspiracy is enough to prove how ludicrous their theories are...

[Drawz]

Funnily enough this is one of the reasons I am so convinced that the moon missions really happened, I lived through it and I remember it so I already KNEW it happened...

But one thing these crackpot theorists don't seem to realise is that if you tell a secret to one person there's a chance it will become common knowlege and if you tell 2 people the chances of it becoming common knowledge increase exponentially...

The number of people involved in this so called conspiracy is enough to prove how ludicrous their theories are...

Ding ding ding! Give the man his cupie doll!

[StoneScratcher]

Funnily enough this is one of the reasons I am so convinced that the moon missions really happened, I lived through it and I remember it so I already KNEW it happened...

But one thing these crackpot theorists don't seem to realise is that if you tell a secret to one person there's a chance it will become common knowlege and if you tell 2 people the chances of it becoming common knowledge increase exponentially...

The number of people involved in this so called conspiracy is enough to prove how ludicrous their theories are...

Not really, if you really think about it.

Perhaps you can remember your earnest belief in Santa*? All that proved he existed, the leftover cookie crumbs, the presents, the fakery you fell for.

“Mission Control, please be informed, there is a Santa Claus.”

I don't hang my stocking up for NASA.

* If you celebrated Christmas.

[LouC]

uh oh; moon landing hoax theorists! looks like the gig is up!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090717150244.htm



the resolution will only get better too once engineering calibrations and orbit adjustments are finished.

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been following the LRO from before launch and have a daily update thread here in GI and now I get upstaged on this.....

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!

Life ain't fair! :))

[gdoane]

I'm no conspiracy theorist and I do have the opinion that men landed on the moon, but I have to question one thing about the article.

If the resolution is 4 feet per pixel, how can they say they see footprints? Who in the heck has feet that are four feet long? What size shoe is that, like a 300 EEE? I didn't know the Apollo Spacesuits came with CLOWN shoes!

[King Cantona]

Not really, if you really think about it.

Perhaps you can remember your earnest belief in Santa*? All that proved he existed, the leftover cookie crumbs, the presents, the fakery you fell for.

“Mission Control, please be informed, there is a Santa Claus.”

I don't hang my stocking up for NASA.

* If you celebrated Christmas.

I do celebrate Christmas but I was a kid when I believed in Santa, I've grown up now but it seems these conspiracy theorists haven't....

[LouC]

I'm no conspiracy theorist and I do have the opinion that men landed on the moon, but I have to question one thing about the article.

If the resolution is 4 feet per pixel, how can they say they see footprints? Who in the heck has feet that are four feet long? What size shoe is that, like a 300 EEE? I didn't know the Apollo Spacesuits came with CLOWN shoes!

They aren't recording detail of individual foot prints but footprint tracks in the lunar soil as one could see a footprint trail across a beach or a snow field from a great height but not see the individual footprints.

Quite simple.

From the OP article: The Apollo Lunar Surface Experiment Package (ALSEP), a set of scientific instruments placed by the astronauts at the landing site, is discernable, as are the faint trails between the descent stage and ALSEP left by the astronauts' footprints.

I knew that without reading the article.

[LouC]

...Perhaps you can remember your earnest belief in Santa*? All that proved he existed, the leftover cookie crumbs, the presents, the fakery you fell for...

:))

Equating kids belief in Santa to believing in the Apollo Moon landing Missions.

There was nothing to prove Santa existed besides people's lies.

I figured out very young I was being lied to, it was quite some time before I went to Kindergarten.

There was plenty to evidence the Apollo Missions were real without ever taking anyon's word for it.

[LouC]

uh oh; moon landing hoax theorists! looks like the gig is up!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090717150244.htm



the resolution will only get better too once engineering calibrations and orbit adjustments are finished.

Great article, even if you upstaged me at 3 o'clock in the morning. :((

[LouC]

what about when the indian probe takes photos at even higher resolution?

The Indian Probe has joint NASA technology assistance.

It is already tainted.

[LouC]

or the chinese?

Of course the Chinese will play along with the NASA hoax, they don't want the U.S. to go through anymore crisis and risk to their long term investments in our debt.

[LouC]

...Frankly, I don't care what anyone says to me, or about me in this regard. Doesn't bother me in the least...

It is true.

[King Cantona]

:))

Equating kids belief in Santa to believing in the Apollo Moon landing Missions.

There was nothing to prove Santa existed besides people's lies.



Ditto the tooth fairy.....

You can tell a kid anything and he'll probably believe it but with age comes wisdom and he will finally realise that people are just lying bastards...:))...

[LouC]

If you want to journey beyond the OP's good Science article check out this: http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=57944231&postcount=66

I give regular updates of what the LRO is doing.

[davetexas]

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been following the LRO from before launch and have a daily update thread here in GI and now I get upstaged on this.....

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!

Life ain't fair! :))



Stole your glory.

But,your efforts are appreciated. Thanks

[LouC]

Stole your glory.

But,your efforts are appreciated. Thanks

Thanks.

That is what I get for having the audacity to sleep I guess.... :doh:

Never again.... :twisted:

It is all good. :))

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

You'll never convince a cospiracy theorist that his conspiracy is bunk..

+1

we have threads here that prove that

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

Funnily enough this is one of the reasons I am so convinced that the moon missions really happened, I lived through it and I remember it so I already KNEW it happened...

But one thing these crackpot theorists don't seem to realise is that if you tell a secret to one person there's a chance it will become common knowlege and if you tell 2 people the chances of it becoming common knowledge increase exponentially...

The number of people involved in this so called conspiracy is enough to prove how ludicrous their theories are...

Yeah, I've said that a thousand times. One person can't keep a secret, much less ten thousand. Plus their family. And friends.

[content]

Man on the moon. Shows what America can do when we put our mind to it.

[MikeJF]

Yeah, I've said that a thousand times. One person can't keep a secret, much less ten thousand. Plus their family. And friends.

Manhattan Project. Successfully kept secret from Germany and Japan. Employed more than 130,000 people.

[Dual867PowerMac]

uh oh; moon landing hoax theorists! looks like the gig is up!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090717150244.htm

the resolution will only get better too once engineering calibrations and orbit adjustments are finished.
All is see is a gray blob. :think:

Link to video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fHAISw6bZ4).

[gb2004]

uh oh; moon landing hoax theorists! looks like the gig is up!

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090717150244.htm



the resolution will only get better too once engineering calibrations and orbit adjustments are finished.

Obviously fake.;) /s

[gb2004]

Manhattan Project. Successfully kept secret from Germany and Japan. Employed more than 130,000 people.

For a couple years. Not 40.:rolleyes:

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

Manhattan Project. Successfully kept secret from Germany and Japan. Employed more than 130,000 people.

How do you know about it?

[MikeJF]

We'll soon see much better resolution pics from LRO, bu Japan was first to photograph the earth from the moon in high definition:

earth-'rise' (1200px × 675px jpg):
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/orbitingthemoon/hdtv2.jpg

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071113085735.htm

[snagswolf]

Manhattan Project. Successfully kept secret from Germany and Japan. Employed more than 130,000 people.
Until the bomb went off, and then they talked to their friends and said, "Hey, I worked on part of that!"

One would think that if the moon landings were faked, you folks would be able come up with one inside whistleblower 40 years later willing to admit that it was.

Just one honest person in all those involved.

But instead, you want us to accept your premise that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is dishonest.

[King Cantona]

Until the bomb went off, and then they talked to their friends and said, "Hey, I worked on part of that!"

One would think that if the moon landings were faked, you folks would be able come up with one inside whistleblower 40 years later willing to admit that it was.

Just one honest person in all those involved.

But instead, you want us to accept your premise that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is dishonest.

And not just NASA, Jodrell Bank and every other radio telescope, it would have to be a conspiracy of a million people or more....

And like you've said, not one whistleblower out of the lot of 'em, they managed to find that many trustworthy people?.....As if....

[Dual867PowerMac]

We'll soon see much better resolution pics from LRO, bu Japan was first to photograph the earth from the moon in high definition:

earth-'rise' (1200px × 675px jpg):
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/orbitingthemoon/hdtv2.jpg

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071113085735.htm
A much more telling photograph...

[LouC]

Manhattan Project. Successfully kept secret from Germany and Japan. Employed more than 130,000 people.

I understand what you are saying, however comparing the Manhattan Project being kept secret from Germany and Japan in the middle of a world war with them to NASA supposedly keeping faked Moon landings secret from America is not really doable.

[gdoane]

They aren't recording detail of individual foot prints but footprint tracks in the lunar soil as one could see a footprint trail across a beach or a snow field from a great height but not see the individual footprints.

Quite simple.

From the OP article:

I knew that without reading the article.

I'm totally NOT arguing that men landed on the Moon. They did. I was a schoolkid during the Apollo missions and got spoonfed NASA for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I don't think the argument is helped by saying they saw footprints when as you say (and I agree) they saw a trail.

Scientifically, I don't think you'd be able to see footprints 40 years later anyway because of tidal forces. While high tide only happens once per day, every day on Earth, it's all day long on the moon because it's always facing the Earth, but the Earth doesn't always face the moon.

The moon dust, forming the craters and dunes, would be drawn to the tidal effects 24/7 for some 40 years which I think would be more than enough to erase them.

I mean, you can't even make a sand castle on a beach and expect it to be there the next day because of tidal forces, and those forces, SIX TIMES HEAVIER are going to let footprints in the sand last for forty years? How can that be?

[King Cantona]

The moon dust, forming the craters and dunes, would be drawn to the tidal effects 24/7 for some 40 years which I think would be more than enough to erase them.

I mean, you can't even make a sand castle on a beach and expect it to be there the next day because of tidal forces, and those forces, SIX TIMES HEAVIER are going to let footprints in the sand last for forty years? How can that be?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean but footprints on a beach will be erased by the tide. There ARE no tides on the moon because there is no water and so footprints (with no wind either) would be untouched for 40 years or 400 years...

[LouC]

I'm totally NOT arguing that men landed on the Moon. They did.

No I didn't think you were.

I was a schoolkid during the Apollo missions and got spoonfed NASA for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Me too, I enjoyed it and still have a large interest in NASA.

I don't think the argument is helped by saying they saw footprints when as you say (and I agree) they saw a trail.

No you are right mentioning footprints was a poor way to describe the photo content.

It is similarly misleading, to some, much as the "moon rang like a bell" statement from excited scientists receiving seismic data after Apollo ascent vehicles were impacted on the Moon.

Scientifically, I don't think you'd be able to see footprints 40 years later anyway because of tidal forces.

Yes that is true, tidal forces, impact tremors and volcanic quakes would all have quickly destroyed the crisp impressions that were photographed during Apollo eva's.

I was reading about this very subject not too long back, it was theorized that the dry nature of the Lunar dust would not allow it to remain in a compacted state and would of its own weight crumble.

While high tide only happens once per day, every day on Earth, it's all day long on the moon because it's always facing the Earth, but the Earth doesn't always face the moon.

That tidal warping is witnessed in the shape of the moon.

The moon dust, forming the craters and dunes, would be drawn to the tidal effects 24/7 for some 40 years which I think would be more than enough to erase them.

The article I was reading about this speculated it would have taken place in a very short time, within a couple years if I remember.

I mean, you can't even make a sand castle on a beach and expect it to be there the next day because of tidal forces, and those forces, SIX TIMES HEAVIER are going to let footprints in the sand last for forty years? How can that be?

They should at the least have said foot trails but not "footprints"

[Samm]

I'm totally NOT arguing that men landed on the Moon. They did. I was a schoolkid during the Apollo missions and got spoonfed NASA for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I don't think the argument is helped by saying they saw footprints when as you say (and I agree) they saw a trail.

Scientifically, I don't think you'd be able to see footprints 40 years later anyway because of tidal forces. While high tide only happens once per day, every day on Earth, it's all day long on the moon because it's always facing the Earth, but the Earth doesn't always face the moon.

The moon dust, forming the craters and dunes, would be drawn to the tidal effects 24/7 for some 40 years which I think would be more than enough to erase them.

I mean, you can't even make a sand castle on a beach and expect it to be there the next day because of tidal forces, and those forces, SIX TIMES HEAVIER are going to let footprints in the sand last for forty years? How can that be?

Tidal forces will not erase imprints in moon dust. Gravity works equally on all of the particles simultaneously... they all move together, and as you point out, they are essentially in stasis (as opposed to cycling every few hours,) thus will stay together indefinitely.

The tidal forces on Earth that erased your sand castles is water (and wind) not gravity tides... that and the fact that beach sand particles are smooth... eroded round by water and wear which means they will slough to a low angel of repose when the water that "glued" them together evaporates. The particles on the moon are sharp edged like crushed sand or gravel is... they stand at a much steeper angle without requiring moisture to hold them together.

But what do you mean by "the Earth doesn't always face the moon" ? The Earth does not have a face... it is spherical. Don't you mean the same side of Earth does not always face the moon?

And high tide occurs twice a day on Earth in the oceans (lake tides occur once a day) except in some rare locations... even though the moon only circles once a day.

[Pauper66]

Hmmm...

Maybe we quit going to the moon because of the dangerous riptides?:))

[Samm]

That's a cheap way to up your post count. ;)


The same place you edited your dupe post allows you to delete it.

[Pauper66]

Better?

:mrgreen:

[StoneScratcher]

:))

Equating kids belief in Santa to believing in the Apollo Moon landing Missions.

There was nothing to prove Santa existed besides people's lies.

I figured out very young I was being lied to, it was quite some time before I went to Kindergarten.

There was plenty to evidence the Apollo Missions were real without ever taking anyon's word for it.

“Mission Control, please be informed, there is a Santa Claus.”

There is a SANTA CLAUS! NASA said so! How dare you say what NASA says is a LIE!

NASA is the gospel, not one word they say is a mistruth! SANTA lives on the far side of the MOON! Listen for yourself. I'm crushed, utterly crushed, (hand to forehead) that you, LouC would say NASA lies! (GASP!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBRnSZ0b6Rg

James Lovell, Apollo 8 Commander, 1968. He made this transmission after coming around the far side of the Moon on the Apollo 8 mission. "Mission Control, please be informed, there is a Santa Claus."

[Samm]

:rolleyes:

[StoneScratcher]

:rolleyes:

:)) http://www.clipartguide.com/_named_clipart_images/0511-0711-0615-2021_Santa_on_the_Moon_clipart_image.jpg

[Chuangtzu]

Funnily enough this is one of the reasons I am so convinced that the moon missions really happened, I lived through it and I remember it so I already KNEW it happened...

But one thing these crackpot theorists don't seem to realise is that if you tell a secret to one person there's a chance it will become common knowlege and if you tell 2 people the chances of it becoming common knowledge increase exponentially...

The number of people involved in this so called conspiracy is enough to prove how ludicrous their theories are...

To be fair - the Manhattan Project was a colossal conspiracy of silence, so compartmentalized that the vast majority of workers had no clue what they were build, or working towards.

It can be done.

It just wasn't done with the lunar missions. Because the whole world was (a) watching (b) full of people tracking it independently and (c) recording and collating their own data.

[Chuangtzu]

I understand what you are saying, however comparing the Manhattan Project being kept secret from Germany and Japan in the middle of a world war with them to NASA supposedly keeping faked Moon landings secret from America is not really doable.

This.

[King Cantona]

To be fair - the Manhattan Project was a colossal conspiracy of silence, so compartmentalized that the vast majority of workers had no clue what they were build, or working towards.

It can be done.

It just wasn't done with the lunar missions. Because the whole world was (a) watching (b) full of people tracking it independently and (c) recording and collating their own data.

Well that's my point, it was followed independently by the whole world and you can't tell me that Jodrell Bank lied, that's only a few miles from here...;)...

What was done in wartime can't really be judged as in any way similar to the space programme anyway, everyone was pulling together for the greater good (beating Japan)...

[gdoane]

Tidal forces will not erase imprints in moon dust. Gravity works equally on all of the particles simultaneously... they all move together, and as you point out, they are essentially in stasis (as opposed to cycling every few hours,) thus will stay together indefinitely.

The tidal forces on Earth that erased your sand castles is water (and wind) not gravity tides... that and the fact that beach sand particles are smooth... eroded round by water and wear which means they will slough to a low angel of repose when the water that "glued" them together evaporates. The particles on the moon are sharp edged like crushed sand or gravel is... they stand at a much steeper angle without requiring moisture to hold them together.

But what do you mean by "the Earth doesn't always face the moon" ? The Earth does not have a face... it is spherical. Don't you mean the same side of Earth does not always face the moon?

And high tide occurs twice a day on Earth in the oceans (lake tides occur once a day) except in some rare locations... even though the moon only circles once a day.

Well, I live and grew up in Arizona so I'm not all that familiar with anything but lake tides.

The thing about the earth rotating is that the earth is not a perfect spheroid, it's rather eggshaped and tilted giving us the ecliptic plane. This is why the autumn and vernal equinox happens in March and September, and the winter and summer solstices happen in December and June.

My experience with tidal forces comes from my training as a satellite communications technician in the United States Navy. The ship's gyroscope had to keep the satellite dishes pointed at the satellite no matter which way the ship turned, pitched or rolled. It had to be very accurate because a satellite in geostationary orbit is something like 14,000 miles away and an error of just one degree is off by a country mile.

Now the thing with satellites in space (and the moon is a satellite, just a heckuva biggun) is that they want to follow the orbital plane, not the ecliptic plane with Earth's tilt. That's why satellites in geostationary orbit, in the Clarke Belt, need to use hydrozine fuel to keep their place.

If they don't, or if they run out of fuel, they will be dragged into the orbital plane and out of the ecliptic plane, making it seem to an observer on Earth that they're rising and falling in the sky up and down.

The moon, obviously, has no hydrazine fuel keeping it on the ecliptic plane so gravitational forces from the tilted and spinning Earth should, in theory, be dragging things around up there on the moon. It's moving up and down in relation to us every single day so our gravitational field (which is not in line with the orbital plane) should be affecting it every single day and our magnetic field (which isn't even in line with our ecliptic plane) should be affecting it every single day too.

I don't see how after 40 years of those kinds of forces every day, a footprint stays visible.

[GA_LP]

Manhattan Project. Successfully kept secret from Germany and Japan. Employed more than 130,000 people.And completely riddled with Soviet sympathizers and actual Soviet agents. Stalin knew sooner and more about "the gadget" than Truman, who gave him a vague outline at Potsdam. Not a good example of keeping a secret - that means from ANYONE without the Need to Know, and that definitely meant the Soviets.

[Pauper66]

The moon, obviously, has no hydrazine fuel keeping it on the ecliptic plane so gravitational forces from the tilted and spinning Earth should, in theory, be dragging things around up there on the moon. It's moving up and down in relation to us every single day so our gravitational field (which is not in line with the orbital plane) should be affecting it every single day and our magnetic field (which isn't even in line with our ecliptic plane) should be affecting it every single day too.

I don't see how after 40 years of those kinds of forces every day, a footprint stays visible.

Doesn't the moon have it's own gravity? The earth may tug at the moon as a whole, but I doubt earth's gravitational pull will override the moon's gravity on the surface.

Other wise, there would be no moon. everything would be sucked from the surface, right back down to earth.

[gdoane]

Doesn't the moon have it's own gravity? The earth may tug at the moon as a whole, but I doubt earth's gravitational pull will override the moon's gravity on the surface.

Other wise, there would be no moon. everything would be sucked from the surface, right back down to earth.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/30mar_moonfountains.htm

Moon fountains do override gravity, and they're caused by electromotive force.

I'm a believer in the Unified Force Theory.

Basically, there are four known forces. Electromotive force (often called electricity), Gravitational force, Strong nuclear force and Weak nuclear force.

Now, according to the theory of relativity in the conservation of energy, all forces are present in all matter. That is to say, that all matter has gravity, all matter has electromotive force, and that all matter has strong and weak nuclear force inherent in it.

What if it's not really four forces, but ONE force in four different manifestations? If you find that one force, and harness it, your name is GOD. You have control over all matter and energy in the known universe.

This discovery, when it happens (not if) will make the nuclear arms race look like a joke. Our best nuke could take out maybe ten square miles. A weapon based on unified force theory and hitting zero point energy could take out a galaxy.

Right now, what we need to do is make sure we're the ones who discover it because if anybody else does, we'll all be speaking german or japanese the morning after.

[Pauper66]

Right now, what we need to do is make sure we're the ones who discover it because if anybody else does, we'll all be speaking german or japanese the morning after.

Highly unlikely.

Taking us out would take them out, rendering the weapon useless by it's very nature.

[snow96]

I don't see how after 40 years of those kinds of forces every day, a footprint stays visible.

How can the old wagon tracks of those who moved west through the plains, and western states still be visible some 100 years + later G?

[gdoane]

Highly unlikely.

Taking us out would take them out, rendering the weapon useless by it's very nature.

That's a risk a lunatic would be willing to take.

We didn't even know what the nuke would do. Radiation sickness was uncharted territory when we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. We didn't know anything about birth defects or cancer or waking up Godzilla.

Okay, I'm kidding about the waking up Godzilla part but the point is, we've seen people use weapons that they do not understand before.

The doomsday device is not useless, it's insanity. Unfortunately, two things which are in abundant supply in this world are stupidity and insanity.

Just because the weapon would be useless doesn't mean some maniac wouldn't use it.

[Samm]

Well, I live and grew up in Arizona so I'm not all that familiar with anything but lake tides.

The thing about the earth rotating is that the earth is not a perfect spheroid, it's rather eggshaped and tilted giving us the ecliptic plane. This is why the autumn and vernal equinox happens in March and September, and the winter and summer solstices happen in December and June.

My experience with tidal forces comes from my training as a satellite communications technician in the United States Navy. The ship's gyroscope had to keep the satellite dishes pointed at the satellite no matter which way the ship turned, pitched or rolled. It had to be very accurate because a satellite in geostationary orbit is something like 14,000 miles away and an error of just one degree is off by a country mile.

Now the thing with satellites in space (and the moon is a satellite, just a heckuva biggun) is that they want to follow the orbital plane, not the ecliptic plane with Earth's tilt. That's why satellites in geostationary orbit, in the Clarke Belt, need to use hydrozine fuel to keep their place.

If they don't, or if they run out of fuel, they will be dragged into the orbital plane and out of the ecliptic plane, making it seem to an observer on Earth that they're rising and falling in the sky up and down.

The moon, obviously, has no hydrazine fuel keeping it on the ecliptic plane so gravitational forces from the tilted and spinning Earth should, in theory, be dragging things around up there on the moon. It's moving up and down in relation to us every single day so our gravitational field (which is not in line with the orbital plane) should be affecting it every single day and our magnetic field (which isn't even in line with our ecliptic plane) should be affecting it every single day too.

I don't see how after 40 years of those kinds of forces every day, a footprint stays visible.

As I said... all of the particles are affected equally and therefore are moving in unison so that they stay together as the tidal forces change ever so slightly. Besides, the photo does not show footprints; it shows the accumulation of footprints that form a linear feature (a trail) on the surface. The linear feature would be seen even if the footprints had eroded.

[gdoane]

How can the old wagon tracks of those who moved west through the plains, and western states still be visible some 100 years + later G?

I really don't know. We had some killer dust storms yesterday across Phoenix and you can't even tell what color most people's cars used to be today. My 2008 F-150 is supposed to be Adobe Gold color and the poor thing looks like Sonoran Dust now.

Probably one of the coolest sites that has markings of explorers some 100 years later is the Petroglyphs near Gila Bend, AZ.

http://www.gilabendaz.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={25DAFADA-8323-4573-BD93-E76A27EA17FE}

I've been there a hundred times if I've been there once and the wear on the stones really shows. You can tell they've been there for a hundred years or more just by looking at the wear and tear.

I don't know what old wagon tracks you're talking about.

I've been to the cemetery at Colonial Williamburg and many of the tombstones were so weather worn that to read them, it took a pencil rubbing and soon, even that won't be enough to determine the names of the dead and buried.

It's been my experience that tracks just don't last very long.

[gdoane]

As I said... all of the particles are affected equally and therefore are moving in unison so that they stay together as the tidal forces change ever so slightly. Besides, the photo does not show footprints; it shows the accumulation of footprints that form a linear feature (a trail) on the surface. The linear feature would be seen even if the footprints had eroded.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm asking a basic question. How can all particles be affected equally when all particles are not equal? It's easier to move a grain of sand than a boulder, right? Dust is in the wind while rocks remain steadfast.

It seems to me that moon dust is basically debris from random meteoric impacts and would not be uniform in size or weight, which would make for an unequal effect given gravity, tidal forces and solar winds.

They still see the trail, but something is wrong with that. It shouldn't be there after all these years.

[Samm]

I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm asking a basic question. How can all particles be affected equally when all particles are not equal? It's easier to move a grain of sand than a boulder, right? Dust is in the wind while rocks remain steadfast.

It seems to me that moon dust is basically debris from random meteoric impacts and would not be uniform in size or weight, which would make for an unequal effect given gravity, tidal forces and solar winds.

They still see the trail, but something is wrong with that. It shouldn't be there after all these years.

Think about it... any differences in the particles that encase a single footprint are going to be very minute (run a magnet through the soil in your driveway and you will find hundreds of thousands of meteorites similar to moon dust - they are all pretty much the same) and the variable effect of Earths gravity as the moon orbits will be so small across the span of a foot print as to be unmeasurable. As snow said... 100 year old wagon tracks out west are still visible from above and they are subject not only to the tidal forces, but to wind, water and deposition of more recent particles. I would bet you that if you were to fly to the surface of the moon and stand there and look down at the Apollo footprints they would look like they were put down yesterday.

[Pauper66]

Who needs wagon tracks http://www.santafetrailnm.org/site547.html (http://www.santafetrailnm.org/site105.html)when you can have dinosaur tracks http://www.santafetrailnm.org/site105.html

[Vaard]

I zoomed in and saw a knocked over beach umbrella and a beach chair.

I, personally, do not believe any modern man landed on the moon.

But no where did I say that no man ever landed on the moon. Just modern man hasn't.

Frankly, I don't care what anyone says to me, or about me in this regard. Doesn't bother me in the least.

So, as others have said on this thread--many may not accept any image given as proof of modern man landing on the moon.

The only way I'll believe it is if there is a way for ANY person to VIEW THE ENTIRE SURFACE of the moon with a LIVE feed of the surface--no buffers.

That way every person on the moon's closest neighbor can view, independent from INTERPRETATION and CROPPING of image.


i know how you feel.. i think michael jacksons death was faked.......

[Samm]

i know how you feel.. i think michael jacksons death was faked.......

No... his death was real... it was Michael Jackson that was fake. ;)

[PredFan]

I'm no conspiracy theorist and I do have the opinion that men landed on the moon, but I have to question one thing about the article.

If the resolution is 4 feet per pixel, how can they say they see footprints? Who in the heck has feet that are four feet long? What size shoe is that, like a 300 EEE? I didn't know the Apollo Spacesuits came with CLOWN shoes!

They meant the rover. You can see the tracks of the lunar rover.

[PredFan]

All is see is a gray blob. :think:

Link to video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fHAISw6bZ4).

Your conspiracy days are still numbered. you might as well admit it now.

[PredFan]

And not just NASA, Jodrell Bank and every other radio telescope, it would have to be a conspiracy of a million people or more....

And like you've said, not one whistleblower out of the lot of 'em, they managed to find that many trustworthy people?.....As if....

Not to mention the USSR, whom, if memory serves, weren't exactly our friends.

[PredFan]

I'm totally NOT arguing that men landed on the Moon. They did. I was a schoolkid during the Apollo missions and got spoonfed NASA for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I don't think the argument is helped by saying they saw footprints when as you say (and I agree) they saw a trail.

Scientifically, I don't think you'd be able to see footprints 40 years later anyway because of tidal forces. While high tide only happens once per day, every day on Earth, it's all day long on the moon because it's always facing the Earth, but the Earth doesn't always face the moon.

The moon dust, forming the craters and dunes, would be drawn to the tidal effects 24/7 for some 40 years which I think would be more than enough to erase them.

I mean, you can't even make a sand castle on a beach and expect it to be there the next day because of tidal forces, and those forces, SIX TIMES HEAVIER are going to let footprints in the sand last for forty years? How can that be?

I'm afraid you are wrong on that score. I'm pretty sure that the surface of the moon has changed verl little in several million years. Some of those craters remain from the moon's earliest years.

[Dual867PowerMac]

Your conspiracy days are still numbered. you might as well admit it now.
To quote Lee Corso:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b94/BengalsManiac/leecorso.jpg

"Not so fast, my friend!"

[Samm]

It must be tough to have your entire persona riding on a steadfast belief that the Moon landings were faked and know that within two months there will be solid evidence posted worldwide of the landing sites proving once and for all that they were real. :boohoo:


:))

[Dual867PowerMac]

It must be tough to have your entire persona riding on a steadfast belief that the Moon landings were faked and know that within two months there will be solid evidence posted worldwide of the landing sites proving once and for all that they were real. :boohoo:


:))
What proof?

[Samm]

What proof?

:)) :)) :)) How predictable... :razz:

[Dual867PowerMac]

I want to know is why they're staging being about halfway to the moon which is approximately 130,000 miles.

I think the reason is clear: the radiation in Van Allen belts prevents manned missions from traversing them. In short, no manned mission can even go halfway to the moon. The trickery with the camera is proof positive.

Until the problem of the Van Allen belts is solved, I'll continue to be critical of other so-called evidence.

[DuckSoupe]

what will the moon people think ?

[Samm]

I want to know is why they're staging being about halfway to the moon which is approximately 130,000 miles.

I think the reason is clear: the radiation in Van Allen belts prevents manned missions from traversing them. In short, no manned mission can even go halfway to the moon. The trickery with the camera is proof positive.

Until the problem of the Van Allen belts is solved, I'll continue to be critical of other so-called evidence.

And what evidence do you have that the radiation in Van Allen belts prevents manned missions from traversing them? That fear was simply speculation... much like the earlier speculation that man could not survive breaking the sound barrier. Considering that people from all over the world tracked the Apollo craft all the way to and from the Moon, I think that one is pretty well busted.

[LouC]

what will the moon people think ?

They will probably taunt us from the Parapet of the floating castle, then fart in our general direction.

[LouC]

And what evidence do you have that the radiation in Van Allen belts prevents manned missions from traversing them? That fear was simply speculation... much like the earlier speculation that man could not survive breaking the sound barrier. Considering that people from all over the world tracked the Apollo craft all the way to and from the Moon, I think that one is pretty well busted.

Not for the HB crowd, there is never enough busting.

[Samm]

Not for the HB crowd, there is never enough busting.

I know... I know... I would love to hear what Frank and Dual PM would have to say over a few beers... with Stonescratcher there to lather esoteria all over their conversation. ;)

[LouC]

I know... I know... I would love to hear what Frank and Dual PM would have to say over a few beers... with Stonescratcher there to lather esoteria all over their conversation. ;)

Hoo boy that would be one for the ages... WOW :eek:

Can you imagine the YouTube potential?

[Dual867PowerMac]

And what evidence do you have that the radiation in Van Allen belts prevents manned missions from traversing them? That fear was simply speculation... much like the earlier speculation that man could not survive breaking the sound barrier. Considering that people from all over the world tracked the Apollo craft all the way to and from the Moon, I think that one is pretty well busted.
They're staging being 130,000 miles out, but the truth is that they're only in orbit — and well below the Van Allen belts. I contend they're staging being halfway to the moon because they couldn't safely go halfway to the moon because of the radiation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fHAISw6bZ4

How else can you interpret this video?

[Cygnus X-1]

Van Halen is a GREAT guitarist, but he couldn't have stopped the Apollo Missions.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/Dl4All/album4/VAN-HALEN-5150.jpg

Nope.:naughty:

How's your "I Can Prove..." thread doing, Dual~Wrong? :whistle:

[MrShotShot]

I want to know is why they're staging being about halfway to the moon which is approximately 130,000 miles.

I think the reason is clear: the radiation in Van Allen belts prevents manned missions from traversing them. In short, no manned mission can even go halfway to the moon. The trickery with the camera is proof positive.

Until the problem of the Van Allen belts is solved, I'll continue to be critical of other so-called evidence.

Seems like it was solved - 40 years ago.

In fact, the Van Allen radiation belts extend from about 600 miles up to more than 40,000 miles from Earth with the region of highest radiation intensity being between around 2,000 miles and 12,000 miles above Earth. The astronauts exposure to those radiation belts is brief (less than 4 hours total - they begin their time in this region while traveling at 25,000 MPH! And they pass through it twice, once outbound, and again on their return. They spend less than an hour in the densest part of the belt.) and they are well protected in their spacecraft. Here is a link to a webpage that describes the radiation environment and physiological effects on the Apollo astronauts.

Also, the belt is toroidal in shape (like a donut) and the trajectories of the Apollo spacecraft were designed to avoid the worst part of the Van Allen belts. Even the discoverer of the Van Allen belts, Professor James A. Van Allen, has noted that the belts would not have been dangerous to the Apollo astronauts given their trajectories and their spacecraft.

http://pirlwww.lpl.arizona.edu/~jscotti/NOT_faked/

As to the author:

I am a Planetary Scientist at the University of Arizona's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory where I work on the Spacewatch Project to survey for small objects in the solar system, especially Near-Earth Objects and comets. I watched the Apollo Moonlandings on TV as a young boy, following every crew as they traveled to the moon and back and explored the lunar surface. It seemed like magic to an 8 or 9 year old, but as I grew, the Apollo program spurred my interest in science and I ate up everything I could about Apollo. My present interest in Apollo is historical. I love the details of how and why the Apollo spacecraft and the Saturn V launch vehicle worked as well as the details of the lunar exploration. I watched astronauts setting out experiments, picking up moonrocks, taking pictures and so forth, especially during the last few flights to the moon, but it wasn't until later that I really understood how and why they would pick a particular rock to sample or crater to visit. Understanding Apollo has lead to a great appreciation of it as well as a firm belief in the genuineness of the moonlandings. Everything fits together far too well to be a fake as some of the hoax proponents such as Mr. Overstreet in his website imply. Flying to the moon was not faked. It was not magic. It was engineering and applied science. And it was a spectacular achievment!

Jim Scotti

[King Cantona]

And what evidence do you have that the radiation in Van Allen belts prevents manned missions from traversing them? That fear was simply speculation... much like the earlier speculation that man could not survive breaking the sound barrier. Considering that people from all over the world tracked the Apollo craft all the way to and from the Moon, I think that one is pretty well busted.

I remember (from the history books, I wasn't there;)) that when steam passenger trains started people had concerns that speeds of over 20mph would make people suffocate..

So many hypothesis (plural) have been disproved over the years....

[Gray]

Manhattan Project. Successfully kept secret from Germany and Japan. Employed more than 130,000 people.

Russia Got it.

So much for that....

[LouC]

...How else can you interpret this video?

How?

By first getting away from the HB believer videos, they just dumb down any discussion.

Second is to use some gray matter rather than accepting what HB folks (aka known liars) are telling you.

Third is an easy one, that is simply acquiring a basic understanding of the equipment I.E. cameras being used and how they are handled and their capabilities.

I know I waste my time because people that choose the conspiracy path are usually doomed to a life going ever deeper into that bliss abyss.

But for others where gray matter still runs a redemption course.

Counter Video Click LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_CMgqitv98) to the Posters HB put up job, long video nearly 10 minutes, but long for a reason (it hasn't been sliced and diced by a huckster to sell conspiracy theories).


This site Click LINK (http://lokishammer.dragon-rider.org/Apollo/Apollo11/) fleshes out with stills and commentary how the hucksters sliced and diced their videos that "allegedly" prove Apollo mid flight transmissions were faked.

[King Cantona]

Yes Lou but we both know that however much it is proved that the moon landings took place people will deny it happened just because they were so sure before and they will never lose face.

Well they've already lost face because it DID happen...

[LouC]

Yes Lou but we both know that however much it is proved that the moon landings took place people will deny it happened just because they were so sure before and they will never lose face.

Well they've already lost face because it DID happen...

As long as HB people continue to deny it happened, they trick themselves into a delusion that it did not happen.

In the many different psychological characteristics observed with conspiracy believers there are pathological symptoms that will not allow them to have their theories overturned.

They would lose a mental security blanket, an anchor for their mind, while some are never convinced otherwise because then they would be forced to give up a position of superiority, a sense they have "I know something most other people do not, I am smarter than the masses".

It is an interesting subject.

[MrShotShot]

They would lose a mental security blanket, an anchor for their mind, while some are never convinced otherwise because then they would be forced to give up a position of superiority, a sense they have "I know something most other people do not, I am smarter than the masses".



That's really the key to most of this conspiracy stuff when you get right down to it - I'm superior, I know something you don't, you all are just sheeple, etc. etc.

Not too dissimilar to the "end of the world scenario" types who, to be honest, can't really grasp the notion that one day they won't be here and the world will go on without them - surely that cannot happen and the world just has to end because I am too important.

[Samm]

They're staging being 130,000 miles out, but the truth is that they're only in orbit — and well below the Van Allen belts. I contend they're staging being halfway to the moon because they couldn't safely go halfway to the moon because of the radiation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fHAISw6bZ4

How else can you interpret this video?

How else? Simple... in the confines of a very small capsule wielding a very large video camera they had difficulty taking the images. What other honest interpretation can there be?

And you conveniently ignored the fact that many thousands of people around the world tracked the Apollo craft all the way to the Moon... and back. But I suppose each and every one of them could have been part of the conspiracy. :think:


:))

[PredFan]

How else? Simple... in the confines of a very small capsule wielding a very large video camera they had difficulty taking the images. What other honest interpretation can there be?

And you conveniently ignored the fact that many thousands of people around the world tracked the Apollo craft all the way to the Moon... and back. But I suppose each and every one of them could have been part of the conspiracy. :think:


:))

Not to mention that the Van Allen belt is in fact, safe for man to traverse.

[Samm]

Seems like it was solved - 40 years ago.

In fact, the Van Allen radiation belts extend from about 600 miles up to more than 40,000 miles from Earth with the region of highest radiation intensity being between around 2,000 miles and 12,000 miles above Earth. The astronauts exposure to those radiation belts is brief (less than 4 hours total - they begin their time in this region while traveling at 25,000 MPH! And they pass through it twice, once outbound, and again on their return. They spend less than an hour in the densest part of the belt.) and they are well protected in their spacecraft. Here is a link to a webpage that describes the radiation environment and physiological effects on the Apollo astronauts.

Also, the belt is toroidal in shape (like a donut) and the trajectories of the Apollo spacecraft were designed to avoid the worst part of the Van Allen belts. Even the discoverer of the Van Allen belts, Professor James A. Van Allen, has noted that the belts would not have been dangerous to the Apollo astronauts given their trajectories and their spacecraft.

http://pirlwww.lpl.arizona.edu/~jscotti/NOT_faked/

As to the author:

I am a Planetary Scientist at the University of Arizona's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory where I work on the Spacewatch Project to survey for small objects in the solar system, especially Near-Earth Objects and comets. I watched the Apollo Moonlandings on TV as a young boy, following every crew as they traveled to the moon and back and explored the lunar surface. It seemed like magic to an 8 or 9 year old, but as I grew, the Apollo program spurred my interest in science and I ate up everything I could about Apollo. My present interest in Apollo is historical. I love the details of how and why the Apollo spacecraft and the Saturn V launch vehicle worked as well as the details of the lunar exploration. I watched astronauts setting out experiments, picking up moonrocks, taking pictures and so forth, especially during the last few flights to the moon, but it wasn't until later that I really understood how and why they would pick a particular rock to sample or crater to visit. Understanding Apollo has lead to a great appreciation of it as well as a firm belief in the genuineness of the moonlandings. Everything fits together far too well to be a fake as some of the hoax proponents such as Mr. Overstreet in his website imply. Flying to the moon was not faked. It was not magic. It was engineering and applied science. And it was a spectacular achievment!

Jim Scotti

Damn those pesky facts! :evil:

:)) :)) :))

You would think someone like Dual could figure out how to use Google wouldn't you. ;)

[notluzn]

Some people are pretty wacked to not think we went to the moon. Sucks to be so negative when the facts hit them in the face like a MAC truck.

[snow96]

I really don't know. We had some killer dust storms yesterday across Phoenix and you can't even tell what color most people's cars used to be today. My 2008 F-150 is supposed to be Adobe Gold color and the poor thing looks like Sonoran Dust now.

Probably one of the coolest sites that has markings of explorers some 100 years later is the Petroglyphs near Gila Bend, AZ.

http://www.gilabendaz.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={25DAFADA-8323-4573-BD93-E76A27EA17FE}

I've been there a hundred times if I've been there once and the wear on the stones really shows. You can tell they've been there for a hundred years or more just by looking at the wear and tear.

I don't know what old wagon tracks you're talking about.

I've been to the cemetery at Colonial Williamburg and many of the tombstones were so weather worn that to read them, it took a pencil rubbing and soon, even that won't be enough to determine the names of the dead and buried.

It's been my experience that tracks just don't last very long.

Just a quick search found these pics.

http://www.elkorose.com/hastings.html

They've lasted over a hundred years

[hatman]

They're staging being 130,000 miles out, but the truth is that they're only in orbit — and well below the Van Allen belts. I contend they're staging being halfway to the moon because they couldn't safely go halfway to the moon because of the radiation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fHAISw6bZ4

How else can you interpret this video?

I watched the entire video. Thanks for the link.
I feel sorry for you if you truly believe we didn't go to the moon and somehow this video is evidence of it.
If it was impossible to go through the VanAllen belts, the Russians, and many others, would have known this. Then we would have picked another space objective (space station, unmanned exploration of moon/Mars, etc.) There was no need to lie.

I was there. I saw it happen. It impacted my life in a personal way. It happened.

[MrShotShot]

Damn those pesky facts! :evil:

:)) :)) :))

You would think someone like Dual could figure out how to use Google wouldn't you. ;)

The hoaxers would have you believe that it's like the "edge of the universe" on Star Trek or something.