I have a question on Jim Crow.

[byzantine catholic]

Yes I know it is over and done with but I have always been curious what fountain, restroom, or theatre did Native Americans have to do white or colored since Native Americans were thought of as the color "red".:rolleyes:

[johnrocks]

Good question.

[byzantine catholic]

Good question.Hey I am 1/2 Native American myself and live in the South so I wonder if Jim Crow was still around what I would do? BTW the Jim Crow laws being gone is a good thing of course.

[smyrna]

Yes I know it is over and done with but I have always been curious what fountain, restroom, or theatre did Native Americans have to do white or colored since Native Americans were thought of as the color "red".:rolleyes:

Native Americans were separated by an indian reservation.

[byzantine catholic]

Native Americans were separated by an indian reservation.Not necessarily all of them though.

[RickRhetoric]

Jim Crow laws did not apply to Native Americans. More than half of everyone in the south claims to be part Indian of some sort.

[smyrna]

Not necessarily all of them though.

Not all, but enough that it wasn't recognized as a problem that had to be dealt with.

[byzantine catholic]

Jim Crow laws did not apply to Native Americans. More than half of everyone in the south claims to be part Indian of some sort.So if you were 1/2 White and 1/2 Native American you would go in the "White" line?

[byzantine catholic]

Not all, but enough that it wasn't recognized as a problem that had to be dealt with."Problem"?:rolleyes:

[smyrna]

"Problem"?:rolleyes:

Yes...Jim Crow Laws were enacted because the mixing of races was perceived as a "problem" to the society making the laws at that time. There were not enough Native Americans in the social environment to be perceived as a problem that had to be dealt with. Now did I say it in a way that you don't have a "problem" with the way I said it?

[byzantine catholic]

Yes...Jim Crow Laws were enacted because the mixing of races was perceived as a "problem" to the society making the laws at that time. There were not enough Native Americans in the social environment to be perceived as a problem that had to be dealt with. Now did I say it in a way that you don't have a "problem" with the way I said it?Got ya. Can you answer my other question please.

[byzantine catholic]

So if you were 1/2 White and 1/2 Native American you would go in the "White" line?This one symrna.

[byzantine catholic]

Bump.

[byzantine catholic]

Bump.

[byzantine catholic]

Bump.

[smyrna]

This one symrna.

Is our new President white or black? When you answer that, you've answered your question.

[byzantine catholic]

Is our new President white or black? When you answer that, you've answered your question.No reason to get angry. I was just wondering.

[smyrna]

No reason to get angry. I was just wondering.

byzantine...why do you think I am angry? The question you asked is a fair one and I tried to answer it in a way that would make sense. I've read your posts...I find you enthusiastic and ready to take on lifes challenges. I think you will be a great contribution to our society and find it remarkable that you are only 17.

[byzantine catholic]

byzantine...why do you think I am angry? The question you asked is a fair one and I tried to answer it in a way that would make sense. I've read your posts...I find you enthusiastic and ready to take on lifes challenges. I think you will be a great contribution to our society and find it remarkable that you are only 17.Thank ya but I am 18 now. I am just curious because I am in the South and I am 1/2 Native American and I am wondering about Jim Crow and I guess I would drink in the "White" section drinking fountain.

[smyrna]

Thank ya but I am 18 now.

Dude...happy birthday. Remind me to buy you a beer in three years.:mrgreen:

[byzantine catholic]

Dude...happy birthday. Remind me to buy you a beer in three years.:mrgreen:I turned 18 June 21st.

[smyrna]

Thank ya but I am 18 now. I am just curious because I am in the South and I am 1/2 Native American and I am wondering about Jim Crow and I guess I would drink in the "White" section drinking fountain.

Your general "appearance" would have been the determining factor if your genetic history wasn't known.

[byzantine catholic]

Your general "appearance" would have been the determining factor if your genetic history wasn't known.So the "white section"?

[smyrna]

So the "white section"?

That, I wouldn't know. You would be the best judge.

It's history now...why do you care?

[byzantine catholic]

That, I wouldn't know. You would be the best judge.

It's history now...why do you care?I said I was wondering where Native Americans would fit in with Jim Crow.

[historynut]

Yes I know it is over and done with but I have always been curious what fountain, restroom, or theatre did Native Americans have to do white or colored since Native Americans were thought of as the color "red".:rolleyes:

If you were non-white you would go to the "colored" fountain, restroom, or theatre.

If you were white but know to have some black blood you would go to the "colored" fountain, restroom, or theatre.

If you were white and married to a non-white you would go to the "colored" fountain, restroom, or theatre.

If you were white and know to be friends to a non-white you would go to the "colored" fountain, restroom, or theatre.

[byzantine catholic]

If you were non-white you would go to the "colored" fountain, restroom, or theatre.

If you were white but know to have some black blood you would go to the "colored" fountain, restroom, or theatre.

If you were white and married to a non-white you would go to the "colored" fountain, restroom, or theatre.

If you were white and know to be friends to a non-white you would go to the "colored" fountain, restroom, or theatre.So I guess the "colored" line.

[byzantine catholic]

Actually I just looked up the Jim Crow laws for South Carolina and it says it defines color as 1/8 or more African American so I assume Native Americans could go into "White" lines however it prohibits marriage between a white and an "Indian".:snooty:

[johnrocks]

Actually I just looked up the Jim Crow laws for South Carolina and it says it defines color as 1/8 or more African American so I assume Native Americans could go into "White" lines however it prohibits marriage between a white and an "Indian".:snooty:

I always found those laws prohibiting kinda silly, I mean,how did so many get 1/8 or more African American blood in the first place if it was against the law:confused:Oh I know,people even back then would not have their hearts regulated by govt.

[byzantine catholic]

I always found those laws prohibiting kinda silly, I mean,how did so many get 1/8 or more African American blood in the first place if it was against the law:confused:Oh I know,people even back then would not have their hearts regulated by govt.I guess if you were 1/8 before the Jim Crow laws were passed. I find it ironic really that Native Americans can go into "white" lines but are barred from marrying whites.

[johnrocks]

I guess if you were 1/8 before the Jim Crow laws were passed. I find it ironic really that Native Americans can go into "white" lines but are barred from marrying whites.

It didn't stop my family from marrying Indians here in Louisiana.

[byzantine catholic]

It didn't stop my family from marrying Indians here in Louisiana.Whites are allowed to marry "indians" in Louisiana just not South Carolina and "Indians" are not allowed to marry "blacks" according to the Louisiana laws and color is defined as 1/16 "Black" in the Jim Crow laws of Louisiana.:wall:Yeah did not stop my family either.

[byzantine catholic]

It didn't stop my family from marrying Indians here in Louisiana.How much are ya?

[johnrocks]

How much are ya?

Never had it checked,lol but my Great Grandmother on my Dad's Mother's side was full blood Caddo(Ouachitonian) here in Louisiana and East Texas .

[BillBrown]

Actually I just looked up the Jim Crow laws for South Carolina and it says it defines color as 1/8 or more African American so I assume Native Americans could go into "White" lines however it prohibits marriage between a white and an "Indian".:snooty:

I'll bet you everything I've got that the SC Jim Crow laws did not use the term "African American".

[byzantine catholic]

Never had it checked,lol but my Great Grandmother on my Dad's Mother's side was full blood Caddo(Ouachitonian) here in Louisiana and East Texas .Ah. 1/2 Cherokee and 1/2 Irish.

[byzantine catholic]

I'll bet you everything I've got that the SC Jim Crow laws did not use the term "African American".I know I was using the nicer term for it.

[byzantine catholic]

Never had it checked,lol but my Great Grandmother on my Dad's Mother's side was full blood Caddo(Ouachitonian) here in Louisiana and East Texas .That would make ya 1/8.

[johnrocks]

That would make ya 1/8.

cool,excuse me while I go pee.:))

[byzantine catholic]

cool,excuse me while I go pee.:))Now you went down to 1/16.:whistle:

[captusa]

Yes I know it is over and done with but I have always been curious what fountain, restroom, or theatre did Native Americans have to do white or colored since Native Americans were thought of as the color "red".:rolleyes:

Going back to the 50s and 60s it often depended on geography.
There were no Jim Crow laws in the Dakotas but it many places they had Indian days at the local pools and changed the water the next day.

Lena Horne recalled performing for the troops in the south where German POWs were allowed to occupy front seats.
Japanese POWs were declared "honorary" whites. while black troops were force to sit to the rear of both groups.

[byzantine catholic]

Going back to the 50s and 60s it often depended on geography.
There were no Jim Crow laws in the Dakotas but it many places they had Indian days at the local pools and changed the water the next day.

Lena Horne recalled performing for the troops in the south where German POWs were allowed to occupy front seats.
Japanese POWs were declared "honorary" whites. while black troops were force to sit to the rear of both groups.Yeah out West the Native American had a separate fountain, theatre, and line labelled "indian" while in the South they just went in the "white" line.

[byzantine catholic]

Bump.

[CaughtInTheMiddle]

I think you'd have to get in the multi-colored line. You and Obama can hold hands.

[byzantine catholic]

I think you'd have to get in the multi-colored line. You and Obama can hold hands.What are you talking about me and Obama? In the South in the Jim Crow laws you have 2 lines "colored" and "white".

[PheonixOps]

I always found those laws prohibiting kinda silly, I mean,how did so many get 1/8 or more African American blood in the first place if it was against the law:confused:Oh I know,people even back then would not have their hearts regulated by govt.

Love and lust can't be stopped. Many people considered "Black" were sons or daughters of an owner/slave concubine relationship. Then some of those Mulatto offspring were eventually sold to other masters who used them as concubines and had offspring which would be considered "Quadroons" (they would kind of look like Derek Jeter though he's a Mulatto/bi-racial) then those offspring were eventually sold and used as concubines and had offspring which would be considered as (Octoroons aka 1/8th black) these octoroons could pass as white, that was the "threat". Take Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson as the example, look at their offspring. Look at this picture of Homer Plessy:
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:wkJvBPxfBa1VtM:http://www.glogster.com/media/2/3/73/28/3732885.jpg
"On any other day in 1892, Plessy with his pale skin color could have ridden in the car restricted to white passengers without notice. He was classified "7/8 white" or octoroon according to the language of the time." SOURCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Plessy)

Or check out Adam Clayton Powell Jr.:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:z264OOxFfsDk0M:http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1944_00.jpg
and Adam Clayton Powell IV:
http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:JqI9DdFmixpA0M:http://images.villagevoice.com/issues/0034/robbins.jpg

Had their racial heritage had been known they would have to use the "colored" facilities.

[Mimiheart]

Love and lust can't be stopped. Many people considered "Black" were sons or daughters of an owner/slave concubine relationship. Then some of those Mulatto offspring were eventually sold to other masters who used them as concubines and had offspring which would be considered "Quadroons" (they would kind of look like Derek Jeter though he's a Mulatto/bi-racial) then those offspring were eventually sold and used as concubines and had offspring which would be considered as (Octoroons aka 1/8th black) these octoroons could pass as white, that was the "threat". Take Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson as the example, look at their offspring. Look at this picture of Homer Plessy:
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:wkJvBPxfBa1VtM:http://www.glogster.com/media/2/3/73/28/3732885.jpg
"On any other day in 1892, Plessy with his pale skin color could have ridden in the car restricted to white passengers without notice. He was classified "7/8 white" or octoroon according to the language of the time." SOURCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Plessy)

Or check out Adam Clayton Powell Jr.:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:z264OOxFfsDk0M:http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1944_00.jpg
and Adam Clayton Powell IV:
http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:JqI9DdFmixpA0M:http://images.villagevoice.com/issues/0034/robbins.jpg

Had their racial heritage had been known they would have to use the "colored" facilities.Carol Channing is 1/4 black... her father was light-skinned enough that he could "pass" for white. She kept her heritage a secret for years for fear of not getting cast because of it.

[byzantine catholic]

Love and lust can't be stopped. Many people considered "Black" were sons or daughters of an owner/slave concubine relationship. Then some of those Mulatto offspring were eventually sold to other masters who used them as concubines and had offspring which would be considered "Quadroons" (they would kind of look like Derek Jeter though he's a Mulatto/bi-racial) then those offspring were eventually sold and used as concubines and had offspring which would be considered as (Octoroons aka 1/8th black) these octoroons could pass as white, that was the "threat". Take Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson as the example, look at their offspring. Look at this picture of Homer Plessy:
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:wkJvBPxfBa1VtM:http://www.glogster.com/media/2/3/73/28/3732885.jpg
"On any other day in 1892, Plessy with his pale skin color could have ridden in the car restricted to white passengers without notice. He was classified "7/8 white" or octoroon according to the language of the time." SOURCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Plessy)

Or check out Adam Clayton Powell Jr.:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:z264OOxFfsDk0M:http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1944_00.jpg
and Adam Clayton Powell IV:
http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:JqI9DdFmixpA0M:http://images.villagevoice.com/issues/0034/robbins.jpg

Had their racial heritage had been known they would have to use the "colored" facilities.Do you have an answer to what "line" would Native Americans have to get into.

[byzantine catholic]

Carol Channing is 1/4 black... her father was light-skinned enough that he could "pass" for white. She kept her heritage a secret for years for fear of not getting cast because of it.Yeah many people disobeyed the segregation laws especially after WWII when America had to reexamine itself after they saw the Holocaust.

[byzantine catholic]

Love and lust can't be stopped. Many people considered "Black" were sons or daughters of an owner/slave concubine relationship. Then some of those Mulatto offspring were eventually sold to other masters who used them as concubines and had offspring which would be considered "Quadroons" (they would kind of look like Derek Jeter though he's a Mulatto/bi-racial) then those offspring were eventually sold and used as concubines and had offspring which would be considered as (Octoroons aka 1/8th black) these octoroons could pass as white, that was the "threat". Take Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson as the example, look at their offspring. Look at this picture of Homer Plessy:
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:wkJvBPxfBa1VtM:http://www.glogster.com/media/2/3/73/28/3732885.jpg
"On any other day in 1892, Plessy with his pale skin color could have ridden in the car restricted to white passengers without notice. He was classified "7/8 white" or octoroon according to the language of the time." SOURCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer_Plessy)

Or check out Adam Clayton Powell Jr.:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:z264OOxFfsDk0M:http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/1944_00.jpg
and Adam Clayton Powell IV:
http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:JqI9DdFmixpA0M:http://images.villagevoice.com/issues/0034/robbins.jpg

Had their racial heritage had been known they would have to use the "colored" facilities.So you are saying since Cherokee owned slaves I could be a little African?

[byzantine catholic]

Bump.

[captusa]

Never had it checked,lol but my Great Grandmother on my Dad's Mother's side was full blood Caddo(Ouachitonian) here in Louisiana and East Texas .

I would love to discover a Pequot grandfather in my family tree.

[PheonixOps]

Carol Channing is 1/4 black... her father was light-skinned enough that he could "pass" for white. She kept her heritage a secret for years for fear of not getting cast because of it.

Yep! My family on my Dad's side had a great admiration for her. ;)

[PheonixOps]

Do you have an answer to what "line" would Native Americans have to get into.

Sure, it would depend on the locale, their phenotype, and family connections..............

[byzantine catholic]

Sure, it would depend on the locale, their phenotype, and family connections..............Okay the South, 1/2 Cherokee, and middle class.

[PheonixOps]

Yeah many people disobeyed the segregation laws especially after WWII when America had to reexamine itself after they saw the Holocaust.

LOL, where's your source for that "stuff"?
" African Americans continued to migrate from the rural South to the urban North to improve their economic status. From 1948 to 1961, the proportion of blacks with low incomes (earning below $3,000 a year) declined from 78 percent to 47 percent; at the same time the proportion earning over $10,000 a year increased from under 1 percent to 17 percent. Although black income improved, it remained far below that of whites. Black median income in 1961 was still lower than white median income had been in 1948.

Whites reacted violently to the wartime movement of blacks to urban areas in the North and the West. By the late 1940s, as the black percentage of city populations increased, more and more whites moved to the new suburbs that often restricted black residence. Conflicts between black workers and white workers over housing and jobs developed in some cities. In Detroit in 1943, for example, 25 blacks and 9 whites died in a race riot before federal troops restored order. " SOURCE (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761595158_8/african_american_history.html)

"When blacks came home after the war, whites were prepared to "put them back in their place." Henry Murphy said that when he returned to the states and called his father in Mississippi, his father warned him not to come home with his uniform on. He said that the police was beating Black soldiers and searching them. If they had a picture of a white woman in his wallet, they'd kill him." Murphy returned home dressed as a sharecropper in a overalls and a jumper. Dabney Hammer, who came back to Mississippi wearing his war medals, encountered a white man in his home town of Clarksdale, Mississippi. "Oweee, look at them spangles on your chest. Glad you back. Let me tell you one thing don't you forget ... you're still a ******." SOURCE (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_events_ww2.html)

"With demobilization after World War II, vast numbers of military veterans and their families, flush with cash and GI Bill-backed mortgages, were desperate for housing. A generation was ready to move, but a severe housing shortage initially thwarted their desires.

Enter suburbia builders such as the Levitt brothers, Bill and Alfred. Applying mass-production techniques to home construction, they revolutionized housing in America by creating quickly built and relatively inexpensive houses in model communities named for their family on Long Island, N.Y., and in Pennsylvania. In so doing, the Levitts became famous as the nation’s largest builders.

With home construction now exploding, suburbia—with its promise of tranquility, space and safety—became a reality for tens of millions.

“The opening of Levittown triggered the greatest migration in modern American history,” observes journalist David Kushner in his latest book. “Levittown would become synonymous not just with the prosperity and hope of the 1950s, but the enduring vision of the suburbs that would draw families for decades.”

Kushner’s concern, however, is neither suburbia in general nor Levittown in particular, both of which have attracted considerable scholarly attention over the years. Rather, he focuses on the experiences of two families, one black, one white, to draw attention to one overriding feature of suburban life: its all-white character. In the postwar years, builders such as the Levitts declared their communities off-limits to African-Americans. Their developments’ all-white character, they insisted, would attract working- and middle-class residents who appreciated racial homogeneity and sustained property values.

In highlighting racial discrimination in postwar housing, Kushner is covering familiar ground. But his storytelling techniques capture a drama that is often lacking in academic studies." SOURCE (http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/mar/28/world/chi-0328-levittownmar28)

[PheonixOps]

So you are saying since Cherokee owned slaves I could be a little African?

I never said that in the post you quoted, but I will say it in response to your question now............YES and not just because some Cherokee owned slaves, but some Blacks and Native Americans did intermarry. Reference Cherokee, Catawba, Seminole, Lumbee, Pequot, Montauk, Shinnecock, Poospatuck, Powatan, etc.

[PheonixOps]

Okay the South, 1/2 Cherokee, and middle class.

Well "the South" is a huge region. That's why I said different locales. I am willing to wager that some towns (in the same state) would accept you as white and others wouldn't. Again, I think that it would depend on your phenotype (obvious racial traits) and your family's connections in that town.

[PheonixOps]

Okay the South, 1/2 Cherokee, and middle class.

Is that parent of yours who is Cherokee, 100% Cherokee or are they mixed with White? Is that parent a member of The Cherokee Nation?

[byzantine catholic]

Is that parent of yours who is Cherokee, 100% Cherokee or are they mixed with White? Is that parent a member of The Cherokee Nation?I believe 100% Cherokee. My other side is white yes.

[PheonixOps]

I believe 100% Cherokee. My other side is white yes.

Does that parent look more Native American or more White?

[byzantine catholic]

Does that parent look more Native American or more White?Which one?:wall:Yes my mom looks Cherokee.

[PheonixOps]

Which one?:wall:Yes my mom looks Cherokee.

Why are you banging your head off o the wall because of a simple question that you subsequently answered?

[byzantine catholic]

Why are you banging your head off o the wall because of a simple question that you subsequently answered?Forget it. So...

[historynut]

I guess if you were 1/8 before the Jim Crow laws were passed. I find it ironic really that Native Americans can go into "white" lines but are barred from marrying whites.

Should point out that in a lot of places to go into a "white" line would get you a warning the first time, after that it would get you beat up

[byzantine catholic]

Should point out that in a lot of places to go into a "white" line would get you a warning the first time, after that it would get you beat upIt varied state by state depending on your race. In the South American Indians and Asian Americans were not of concern only blacks so they could go into the "white" line. Out West there was more concern so Asians and American Indians were segregated there.

[sgdp]

I wish I knew what fractions of other heritages I am.

All I know is my last name is Scottish.

[byzantine catholic]

I wish I knew what fractions of other heritages I am.

All I know is my last name is Scottish.No Scottish here.:whistle:

[Mimiheart]

My maiden name was Ellis Islandian... As in it was unpronounceable Czech, so the folks at Ellis Island changed it to a common English word. My (adopted) family are all European Jews, from Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia... you get the idea, those are the countries I've been able to trace anyhow. I think there was one branch of the family in Poland.

[byzantine catholic]

My maiden name was Ellis Islandian... As in it was unpronounceable Czech, so the folks at Ellis Island changed it to a common English word. My (adopted) family are all European Jews, from Czechoslovakia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia... you get the idea, those are the countries I've been able to trace anyhow. I think there was one branch of the family in Poland.I have a little German in me myself.

[sgdp]

No Scottish here.:whistle:

You don't know what you're missing. ;)

[poorblackman]

Yes I know it is over and done with but I have always been curious what fountain, restroom, or theatre did Native Americans have to do white or colored since Native Americans were thought of as the color "red".:rolleyes:

Usually the Colored facilities unless you could pass for white.

[byzantine catholic]

Usually the Colored facilities unless you could pass for white.Even in the South?