7th grader sues school over pro-life T shirt [Archive]

5thIDSoldier

July 7th, 2009, 11:16 am

Good. Very good.

I guess the truth of the message in the t-shirt hurts.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/543335/0_21_070609_abortion2.jpg

A California mom says her public school administrators violated her daughter's First Amendment rights when they ordered the seventh-grader to take off her pro-life T-shirt.
Anna Amador has gone to court on behalf of her daughter, who she says was ordered by her principal to change her shirt on "National Pro-Life T-Shirt Day." The shirt the girl was wearing displays two graphic pictures of a fetus growing in the womb.
The incident occurred in April 2008 at McSwain Elementary School, a K-8 school in Merced, Calif. Amador alleges in her legal complaint that school Principal Terrie Rohrer, Assistant Principal C.W. Smith and office clerk Martha Hernandez mistreated her daughter and denied the girl her First Amendment rights when they ordered her to leave the cafeteria and change her shirt.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530284,00.html?test=latestnews

If the mods could resize this image for me, that would be great. I dont know how to do that.

DRS

July 7th, 2009, 11:33 am

Planned Parenthood is chiming in for the girl too.

badkarma

July 7th, 2009, 11:45 am

I am thinking this is probably not appropriate wear for an elementary school.

JudasGoat

July 7th, 2009, 12:02 pm

I am thinking this is probably not appropriate wear for an elementary school.

why not? condoms and cucumbers are ok. taking them to gay weddings is fine. Books about having gay parents is in the green. speaking of green, scaring the crap out of them telling them the world is gonna end because people are horrible and killing the planet is ok too. Oh wait, I understand now. This isn't in line with left idealogy, so of course it's not appropriate. :rolleyes:

psyko kat

July 7th, 2009, 12:02 pm

I am thinking this is probably not appropriate wear for an elementary school.

? when I was in school, 7th grade was considered --jr high school.

Values

July 7th, 2009, 12:16 pm

? when I was in school, 7th grade was considered --jr high school.

It is.

mysticbeauty_nbeast

July 7th, 2009, 12:16 pm

This tool place in a K-8 school?...not even a high school? Man, I hate it when parents make their children part of their 'free speech' protests on a subject. Take Prop 8 here in California....Many parents loaded up their kids binders with stickers stating yes or no votes on 8. Ummm...these kids can't even vote! So what's the point? Schools had to instruct those students with these huge stickers on their binders to remove them. Lockers had to be de-stickered...walls and hallways had to be de stickered...What a stink that caused. :eh:

If the same scenerio had occured within a high school...I could almost buy that a bit more as those students would have a better idea of what the whole subject is about...what the subject matter contains...and have somewhat of an opinion on the subject. K-8 students?...they simply wouldn't have a clue in the lower grades..and barely a clue in the upper grades. So one has to ask...what parent uses their child as a political bill board for the visual use of said message? It's not as if an 7th or 8th grad student would have enough information to discuss the subject in depth...much less talk to a audience who would understand such information if given to them....and..the coup de gras...none of them can vote one way or the other on the subject for another 13 to 4 years anyway. Doesn't make much sense does it?

In a K-8 scenerio...one shirt can cause a firefight of shirts, stickers, what have you down the road. Parents making their values, ethics, morals and political views visible vis a vie their kids attire need a good swift kick in the bum to jiggle loose a reality check. Elementary School should be about education...reading writing and mathematics...it should teach us how to be in large group settings; how to keep our hands to yourselves, how to deal with others, how to handle ourselves in various situations; and basic behavioral expectations within a group. Dem or Repub, conservative or liberal, gay marriage or traditional, abortions or pro life, spend or save all will hit these kids full force once they hit the voting age and throughout their adult lives...can't we allow them to have a few moments of childhood before having the world hit them square on in the face? Is that too much to ask?

~Mysty

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 12:24 pm

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 12:26 pm

MrShotShot

July 7th, 2009, 12:30 pm

It's no different than wearing an Obama, Che, or LaRaza shirt.
All express political opinions and I'm sure nothing would be said if a kid wore any of these three to School.

mysticbeauty_nbeast

July 7th, 2009, 12:33 pm

>

A couple of observations...

Consistancy:
"A California mom says her public school administrators violated her daughter's First Amendment rights when they ordered the seventh-grader to take off her pro-life T-shirt."

I wonder what the "California Mom's" opinion would be regarding the First Amendment if the T-shirt involved supporting the legalization of marijuana, or supporing abortion, or supporting sex for teenagers.

Think she might have a different opinion about "Free Speech" then?

Discipline:
Don't we often hear cries about how parents don't support discipline within the schools? Just goes to show that it's not just the liberals that take schools into court then they exercise discipline.

My Opinion - The school should have a policy in place regarding controversial clothing and then apply it equally to both extremes.

>>>>

And most in Northern California/Central California districts do have such policies...which I assume is where the school felt within it's rights to have the student remove the t-shirt prior to school starting that day.

and your right on parents loosing their minds if that t-shirt promoted something outside of the 'group' belief. :whistle: and believe me when I say that there is a 'group' belief within these elementary/jr. high schools. Gets down right hectic at times. Glad my kids are all out of public school!

Well posted World...well done indeed.

~Mysty

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 12:35 pm

And most in Northern California/Central California districts do have such policies...which I assume is where the school felt within it's rights to have the student remove the t-shirt prior to school starting that day.

and your right on parents loosing their minds if that t-shirt promoted something outside of the 'group' belief. :whistle: and believe me when I say that there is a 'group' belief within these elementary/jr. high schools. Gets down right hectic at times. Glad my kids are all out of public school!

Well posted World...well done indeed.

~Mysty

I just calls-em-likes-I-sees-em.

:mrgreen:

Think "California Mom" would support Free Speech on this?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-pk4CHdW0WM/ScKMoOjp6EI/AAAAAAAAAFI/6BoUtLIIENo/s200/use_condom_sense_tshirt-p235437365522887647avufh_210%5B1%5D.jpg

>>>>>

mysticbeauty_nbeast

July 7th, 2009, 12:36 pm

This is the reason lots of schools have dresscode policies about t-shirts with writing on them.

I wonder what sort of hoopla and outrage from parents there would have been if a teacher would have worn that shirt.

Your correct...all our districts in California have a specific dress code to eliminate any 'dress' that the school board of education deems inappropriate. This includes gansta type dress; drug messages, sagging, street walker wear and the like.

:eek::eek: Can you imagine the fire storm that would come down upon the teacher that wore a shirt like this...advocating either for or against the subject? Dear flying frogs...it would make the darn evening news! :rolleyes:

~Mysty

mysticbeauty_nbeast

July 7th, 2009, 12:41 pm

I just calls-em-likes-I-sees-em.

:mrgreen:

Think "California Mom" would support Free Speech on this?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-pk4CHdW0WM/ScKMoOjp6EI/AAAAAAAAAFI/6BoUtLIIENo/s200/use_condom_sense_tshirt-p235437365522887647avufh_210%5B1%5D.jpg

>>>>>

LOL...simple answer? No...long answer....No...:D with caveats of course as to why that shirt is inappropriate at school. ...:eh:

Education should be about education. These kids today have to grow up with subject matter before their time. 24 hour news cycles keep these kids bombarded with world issues and nation news that they can barely digest much less understand. Why not put up a protective wall to help or kids focus on what their job is now...to learn. All of the political fodder will wait for them ...and their votes.

~Mysty

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 12:41 pm

:eek::eek: Can you imagine the fire storm that would come down upon the teacher that wore a shirt like this...advocating either for or against the subject? Dear flying frogs...it would make the darn evening news! :rolleyes:

~Mysty

I know right, either one would get people making a HUGE deal over it.

That's kind of what I'm saying here, those types of shirts are just NOT appropriate for school. No politically charged shirt is appropriate for school.

Well, the only solution is UNIFORMS FOR ALL! :) Hey if I had to suffer through 13 years of it so should every other kid. ;)

Values

July 7th, 2009, 12:41 pm

Quite a lot of speculation and condemnation what the mother of this student thinks and does and of parents in general here.
Classy!

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 12:44 pm

Quite a lot of speculation and condemnation what the mother of this student thinks and does and of parents in general here.
Classy!

::yawn:: Stop pretending like parents never make huge issues out of nothing. Anyone in the teaching profession knows they do. it's a very reasonable condlusion if you've ever actually had to deal with parents.

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 12:48 pm

Quite a lot of speculation and condemnation what the mother of this student thinks and does and of parents in general here.
Classy!

Speculation? True.

But one of two things happened.

Either...

(A) This "California Mom" has no clue what her elementary kids are wearing to school, in which case she should be ashamed of herself.

or

(B) She sent the kids to school in a T-shirt she new was going to be controversial just to setup a situation where she could sue.

So which do you think it is - A or B?

Personally - neither of my kids would be allowed to wear such clothing to school. That's what being a parent is part of. Teaching your children that there is a time and a place for everything.

>>>>

Values

July 7th, 2009, 12:51 pm

::yawn:: Stop pretending like parents never make huge issues out of nothing. Anyone in the teaching profession knows they do. it's a very reasonable condlusion if you've ever actually had to deal with parents.

They do and they should! Teachers who want parents to get out of the way should seek another profession.
I was speaking directly to the pathetic attempts to smear and judge her and others with the posts here. Quite pathetic.

DRS

July 7th, 2009, 12:54 pm

Everytime I see something like this I have to ask whose idea was it for the kid to wear the tshirt?

Who buys it for their kid?

It is like when parents sent their kids to school with tshirts making fun of Bush or Obama

mysticbeauty_nbeast

July 7th, 2009, 12:54 pm

Quite a lot of speculation and condemnation what the mother of this student thinks and does and of parents in general here.
Classy!

Hmmmm...how about 'critical thinking skills' to deduce what occurred?...btw: being classy has nothing to do with it. Let's think this out shall we? Who bought her that shirt?...someone with access to money and a store where they sell this type of attire...(which btw, isn't your everyday store that sells this item)....so most likely an adult. Who brought the subject to the table at home? Most likely an adult. What adult is the child around most of their lives up to this point? His or Her parents. So by simple deduction, a parent bought and placed the shirt upon their child. Classy huh? :rolleyes:

My critical thinking tells me this...this parent used her child as a walking political billboard...plain and simple. School stepped in, as they are supposed to. and relieved the child of said responsibilities of being a walking billboard..and now a parent is upset due to the school out voting her will....yeah...this parent is just chalk full of class.

~Mysty

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 12:56 pm

They do and they should! Teachers who want parents to get out of the way should seek another profession.
If parents are so concerned maybe they ought to educate their children themselves. When you pass on the responsibility you pass on some of the rights with it. Frankly, that's why I teach in private school, when a parent is an obnoxious jerk you tell them to take thier child elsewhere. I personally have no time for parents that want to do nothing other than start trouble.

I was speaking directly to the pathetic attempts to smear and judge her and others with the posts here. Quite pathetic.
I'll judge whomever the hell I want, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Values

July 7th, 2009, 12:57 pm

Hmmmm...how about 'critical thinking skills' to deduce what occurred?...btw: being classy has nothing to do with it. Let's think this out shall we? Who bought her that shirt?...someone with access to money and a store where they sell this type of attire...(which btw, isn't your everyday store that sells this item)....so most likely an adult. Who brought the subject to the table at home? Most likely an adult. What adult is the child around most of their lives up to this point? His or Her parents. So by simple deduction, a parent bought and placed the shirt upon their child. Classy huh? :rolleyes:

My critical thinking tells me this...this parent used her child as a walking political billboard...plain and simple. School stepped in, as they are supposed to. and relieved the child of said responsibilities of being a walking billboard..and now a parent is upset due to the school out voting her will....yeah...this parent is just chalk full of class.

~Mysty

You actually know absolutely nothing of the facts in this household yet choose to judge based on your perceptions and personal views. Your critical thinking is gossip.

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 12:58 pm

You actually know absolutely nothing of the facts in this household yet choose to judge based on your perceptions and personal views. Your critical thinking is gossip.

Oh and you must know the "truth", or rather whatever lie the mother is telling so she doens't look like a pain in the ass.

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 1:00 pm

They do and they should! Teachers who want parents to get out of the way should seek another profession.
I was speaking directly to the pathetic attempts to smear and judge her and others with the posts here. Quite pathetic.

Welcome to a political message board. It's a tactic used by both sides.

So let me ask you...

Do you think students should be able to wear whatever they want to schools? Do you think that by claiming "Free Speech" that students can get away with no restrictions on dress?

>>>>

Values

July 7th, 2009, 1:04 pm

If parents are so concerned maybe they ought to educate their children themselves. When you pass on the responsibility you pass on some of the rights with it. Frankly, that's why I teach in private school, when a parent is an obnoxious jerk you tell them to take thier child elsewhere. I personally have no time for parents that want to do nothing other than start trouble.

I'll judge whomever the hell I want, and there's nothing you can do about it.

See, classy!

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:08 pm

See, classy!

You should know all about it, because you're just the epitome of it yourself. ::eyeroll::

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:08 pm

I am thinking this is probably not appropriate wear for an elementary school.

Yeah only Gay, Lesbian and Transgender murals are okay in school. (like our local high school has) :rolleyes:

Values

July 7th, 2009, 1:08 pm

Welcome to a political message board. It's a tactic used by both sides.

So let me ask you...

Do you think students should be able to wear whatever they want to schools? Do you think that by claiming "Free Speech" that students can get away with no restrictions on dress?

>>>>

Nope, I am in favor of dress codes, I just defended someone being attacked without a voice in the matter. Dress codes should be clear cut without bias and uniform in their adherance. Uniform.......hmmmmmmmm, now there's a great idea.

Values

July 7th, 2009, 1:09 pm

You should know all about it, because you're just the epitome of it yourself. ::eyeroll::

Are you 12? C'mon, grow up and be part of an adult discussion would ya'?

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:13 pm

>

A couple of observations...

Consistancy:
"A California mom says her public school administrators violated her daughter's First Amendment rights when they ordered the seventh-grader to take off her pro-life T-shirt."

I wonder what the "California Mom's" opinion would be regarding the First Amendment if the T-shirt involved supporting the legalization of marijuana, or supporing abortion, or supporting sex for teenagers.

Think she might have a different opinion about "Free Speech" then?

Discipline:
Don't we often hear cries about how parents don't support discipline within the schools? Just goes to show that it's not just the liberals that take schools into court when they exercise discipline.

My Opinion - The school should have a policy in place regarding controversial clothing and then apply it equally to both extremes.

>>>>

Do you love how liberals play moral relevancy? Do you notice the sleight of hand in this argument?

As IF marijuana or underage sex is the SAME THING as concern for the unborn. Give me a break! :rolleyes:

Nice try, but considering one is advocacy for an illegal behavior and another is a behavior that spreads STDs, AIDS, and teen pregnancy, it's HARDLY the same thing.

My kid's school dress code would ban either one. But we are not talking about teen sex or drug use.

We are talking about a political debate. Now if the kid wanted to wear a pro-abortion shirt and the school made her take it off, that WOULD be violating her free speech.

After all political discourse is what the first amendment was designed to protect.

:rolleyes:

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:15 pm

Are you 12? C'mon, grow up and be part of an adult discussion would ya'?

::yawns:: Oh yes your debate skills have been so mature. ::yawns again:: And you've been so adult in this discusson yourself.

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:15 pm

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:16 pm

We are talking about a political debate. Now if the kid wanted to wear a pro-abortion shirt and the school made her take it off, that WOULD be violating her free speech.

Would it be appropriate for a teacher to wear an anti or pro abortion shirt to school?

Hereintheusa

July 7th, 2009, 1:16 pm

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:17 pm

Yes thats right the child chose the t-shirt and chose to wear it to school. Give me a break - the parents WANTED this to happen. Most schools with a dress code state that t-shirts or shirts with ANY logos are not acceptable.

But then again this illustrates just why a dress code/school uniform is a good idea.

There are also a lot of them that say the shirt may contain no writing either. Like I said earlier, if people keep wanting to see how far they can push the envelope, it's time for uniforms.

Values

July 7th, 2009, 1:20 pm

::yawns:: Oh yes your debate skills have been so mature. ::yawns again:: And you've been so adult in this discusson yourself.

That's the point, you aren't debating. You are attacking and judging others and then declaring yourself righteous because you did so.
Your posts have become hysterical in more than one sense of the word.

Poisonshady313

July 7th, 2009, 1:22 pm

in my experience, schools reserve the right to dictate dress code... and if your shirt has ANY sort of a message or image, it's subject to disapproval by school staff, whereupon they will ask you to remove (or turn inside out) the shirt.

It sucks that it is that way... but it is that way.

I seriously doubt the school in question is forcing their political agenda by way of dress code enforcement.

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:24 pm

Would it be appropriate for a teacher to wear an anti or pro abortion shirt to school?

There is a HUGE difference between the role of a teacher and the role of a student.

Teachers are in a position of authority. That's why they shouldn't be using that position to push politics.

The student on the other hand is NOT in that position and should NOT have their rights violated simply because it rubs a teacher the wrong way.

Which, by the way, is the same thing as the teacher wearing that t-shirt.

Whether the teacher is pushing politics via a t-shirt or class lesson, OR by violating the political opinion of their subordinate students, it's the same thing, it's forcing their political views on students AND IT'S WRONG.

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:25 pm

Yes thats right the child chose the t-shirt and chose to wear it to school. Give me a break - the parents WANTED this to happen. Most schools with a dress code state that t-shirts or shirts with ANY logos are not acceptable.

But then again this illustrates just why a dress code/school uniform is a good idea.

Most schools?

My school has no such dress code. Only that they are not to wear shirts advocating an illegal or with a sexual message.

:rolleyes:

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:25 pm

That's the point, you aren't debating. You are attacking and judging others and then declaring yourself righteous because you did so.
Your posts have become hysterical in more than one sense of the word.

You are the one that came in here with nothing but personal attacks and no substance. So I'd really evaluate your participation in the thread before you say ANYTHING else to me.

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:26 pm

I seriously doubt the school in question is forcing their political agenda by way of dress code enforcement.
That's why schools that have uniforms or carefully codified dress coades save themsleves the hassle.

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:27 pm

There are also a lot of them that say the shirt may contain no writing either. Like I said earlier, if people keep wanting to see how far they can push the envelope, it's time for uniforms.

California is not the entire world. (that is one thing that always annoyed me when I lived there, the attitude that Southern California WAS the entire world and everyone else just wished they lived there :rolleyes: )

And California's rules do not speak for the entire country. My kid's school, for one, has no such rule.

:rolleyes:

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:28 pm

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:30 pm

That's why schools that have uniforms or carefully codified dress coades save themsleves the hassle.

I always disagreed with public schools going to dress uniforms.

It's just a con to say "we are just like the private schools" which is a joke.

I only wish I could afford to send my kids to private schools.

(at least I have one in college now)

:rolleyes:

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:30 pm

There is a HUGE difference between the role of a teacher and the role of a student.
If it's okay for the student to wear the message it should be fine for a teacher or other staff member as well.

Peers have a great deal of authority over each other. So that's not really a very sound argument.

This particular school doesn't get that much sympathy from me however, because it doesnt' appear it was in thier dress code. A strict dress code or uniforms would have solved this problem before it happened.

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:32 pm

If that was an Obama t-shirt do you think they would make her take it off?

:rolleyes:

They should, it's not appropriate.

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:33 pm

I always disagreed with public schools going to dress uniforms.

It's just a con to say "we are just like the private schools" which is a joke.

I only wish I could afford to send my kids to private schools.

(at least I have one in college now)

:rolleyes:

Or a way to avoid dress code issues. I also think in the LONG run it saves parents money. Plus I think the kids look sharp. A lot of the Public schools here switched to uniforms and I think the kids look much better.

Values

July 7th, 2009, 1:36 pm

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:36 pm

If it's okay for the student to wear the message it should be fine for a teacher or other staff member as well.

Peers have a great deal of authority over each other. So that's not really a very sound argument.

This particular school doesn't get that much sympathy from me however, because it doesnt' appear it was in thier dress code. A strict dress code or uniforms would have solved this problem before it happened.

If it wasn't in their dress code you just proved me right. They singled this kid out because they didn't like the message.

Like I said. Big difference between a teacher and a student. I notice you deleted the rest of my message. That's called wear the opponent out by making them repeat the same thing over and over.

First you express what you think should be "fair" in a perfect world and then go on with a mea culpa that I'M RIGHT ANYWAY, FOR PITY SAKE! :))

Well, it's not a perfect world. JUST AS YOU ADMIT, they didn't have such a dress code in their rules. They simply forced their political views onto this kid.

As I said. The role between teachers and students is different. Students are subordinate. If the teacher had worn such a t-shirt, a student couldn't have demanded he/she remove it, could they?

But a teacher CAN do such a thing. It is wrong for a teachers to use their superior position of authority to force their political views onto subordinate students, but it looks like that's exactly what happened here AND THE MOTHER IS RIGHT TO SUE.

Thank you for admitting you lost whether you realize it or not.

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:37 pm

California is not the entire world. (that is one thing that always annoyed me when I lived there, the attitude that Southern California WAS the entire world and everyone else just wished they lived there :rolleyes: )

And California's rules do not speak for the entire country. My kid's school, for one, has no such rule.

:rolleyes:

Well let's put it this way I live in Ohio. I know lots of teachers from MI, IN, PA that teach in public schools, and most of them have clauses like that in thier dress codes. Although I know Sciota in Columbus doesn't. But most schools where people I know teach have a caluse like that, to prevent this issue.

Also, with dress codes envelope pushing is common, which is why uniforms are just easier to manage.

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:40 pm

If it wasn't in their dress code you just proved me right. They singled this kid out because they didn't like the message.
I don't really care if you're right. This is EXACTLY why schools should have uniforms or strict dress codes.

Well, it's not a perfect world. JUST AS YOU ADMIT, they didn't have such a dress code in their rules. They simply forced their political views onto this kid.
Which is their own damn fault, and that's right the mother can sue the shcool because they were stupid about it.

Now, do I think the mother is being a pain in the ass, yes I do. She has every LEGAL right to sue. However, the shirt still was NOT appropriate for a school setting. THAT has NOT changed.

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:41 pm

Or a way to avoid dress code issues. I also think in the LONG run it saves parents money. Plus I think the kids look sharp. A lot of the Public schools here switched to uniforms and I think the kids look much better.

I have had kids in the public school system since 1995. I've NEVER had a dress code issue.

I have had teachers trying to use their position of authority to intimidate. For example the high schooler (who's now in college) wore a t-shirt I got from GlenBeck.com that said, "George Bush is kicking it old school."

We both thought it was hilarious. Showing Bush scratching on a turntable like he's some hip hop D-jay.

My kid wore it to school and some Bush Derangement Brain dead teacher took offence. She admitted right out it didn't violate the dress code, but she still told her she shouldn't wear it too school.

It's not a perfect world. Teachers push their political views. It's not right, and the parents of students should fight back.

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 1:43 pm

Nope, I am in favor of dress codes, I just defended someone being attacked without a voice in the matter. Dress codes should be clear cut without bias and uniform in their adherance. Uniform.......hmmmmmmmm, now there's a great idea.

OK, so you admit that if the School System had a dress code that they were correct in applying it?

So what is you opinion? Do you think she had no clue as to what her elementary school student was wearing or do you think she (the mother) did it purposely to stir up trouble?

>>>>

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:43 pm

Well let's put it this way I live in Ohio. I know lots of teachers from MI, IN, PA that teach in public schools, and most of them have clauses like that in thier dress codes. Although I know Sciota in Columbus doesn't. But most schools where people I know teach have a caluse like that, to prevent this issue.

Also, with dress codes envelope pushing is common, which is why uniforms are just easier to manage.

I disagree with uniforms for public schools.

If public schools want to uniforms, let them become private schools and start giving the kids a decent education, not half assed where I end up teaching the kids half the stuff they need to know at home anyway.

:rolleyes:

samurai7

July 7th, 2009, 1:44 pm

I don't really care if you're right. This is EXACTLY why schools should have uniforms or strict dress codes.

Which is their own damn fault, and that's right the mother can sue the shcool because they were stupid about it.

Now, do I think the mother is being a pain in the ass, yes I do. She has every LEGAL right to sue. However, the shirt still was NOT appropriate for a school setting. THAT has NOT changed.

Not appropriate why? You just admitted she did NOT break the school dress code.

Not appropirate why? Because YOU don't personally like the message?

Isn't that more likely?

:rolleyes:

Poisonshady313

July 7th, 2009, 1:46 pm

The challenge is, who gets to say a message is inappropriate.
When left up to discretion, people push boundaries in all directions.

Whether a person agrees or disagrees with any given message, surely they can immediately recognize a potential for controversy... and based on that, any school administrator has a say in whether or not a student's shirt is appropriate.

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:54 pm

Not appropirate why? Because YOU don't personally like the message?

Nope, it's because I don't think ANY politically motivated t-shirt is appropriate for school. Personally, I think all schools should have uniforms to prevent the hassle honestly. Everyoen wears the same thing the same way, there's nothing for parents to whine about.

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 1:55 pm

Do you love how liberals play moral relevancy? Do you notice the sleight of hand in this argument?

1 - Name calling already? :rolleyes:

2 - Really, Seems like I advocated for the constant application of school policy. Are you saying that exemption should be made on the subject you might personally agree with? Care to point out the "moral relevancy" of that?

As IF marijuana or underage sex is the SAME THING as concern for the unborn. Give me a break! :rolleyes:

The issue, as per the article in the OP is Freedom of Speech.

I do realize that marijuana is not an abortion. One is a plant one is a medical procedure.

Nice try, but considering one is advocacy for an illegal behavior

Advocating for the repeal of a law is not illegal behavior. As such wearing a T-shirt asking for the repeal of marijuana laws is not illegal. Walking into school and smoking a joint would be illegal.

See the difference.

and another is a behavior that spreads STDs, AIDS, and teen pregnancy, it's HARDLY the same thing.

Actually wearing T-shirts advocating the use of Condoms would reduce the spread of STD's, AIDs, and teen pregnancy rates.

You do realize that condoms provide a barrier to the transmission of STDs and Sperm/Egg fertilization right?

My kid's school dress code would ban either one. But we are not talking about teen sex or drug use.

So would mine. However the article from the OP frames this a Free Speech issue.

You either support the school in maintaining good order and discipline in the school.

Or

You support "Free Speech" for students and anything goes.

Which is it?

We are talking about a political debate. Now if the kid wanted to wear a pro-abortion shirt and the school made her take it off, that WOULD be violating her free speech.

So does that mean you support no dress codes in schools?

After all political discourse is what the first amendment was designed to protect.

I agree, but the First Amendment does not guarantee that exercising Free Speech gets to occur at the time and location of **YOUR** choice when it can be disruptive to others.

If the "California Mom" wanted to dress her little girl an a disruptive T-shirt and go walking around the park all day - have at it. However courts (and rightly so I might add) have recognized that students in schools to not have full Free Speech rights as they could become disruptive to the learning environment.

ETA - I was going to use the Mall as an example, but realized it was private property and as such Free Speech doesn't apply there as they can kick you off the property for being disruptive.

:rolleyes:

I agree, :rolleyes:

>>>>

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 1:58 pm

I have had teachers trying to use their position of authority to intimidate. For example the high schooler (who's now in college) wore a t-shirt I got from GlenBeck.com that said, "George Bush is kicking it old school."

We both thought it was hilarious. Showing Bush scratching on a turntable like he's some hip hop D-jay.

It sounds like a goofy shirt. If it didn't violate the dress code, you can't make them take it off. However a Bush shirt is just as inappropriate for school as an Obama, Nader, etc... shirt. What you wear outside school is not always appropriate for inside school.

Also there is too much leeway for interprtation by parents and teachers there. That's why dresscodes need to be CLEAR on what is a violation and what is not.

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 2:02 pm

It sounds like a goofy shirt. If it didn't violate the dress code, you can't make them take it off. However a Bush shirt is just as inappropriate for school as an Obama, Nader, etc... shirt. What you wear outside school is not always appropriate for inside school.

Also there is too much leeway for interprtation by parents and teachers there. That's why dresscodes need to be CLEAR on what is a violation and what is not.

My son went to a Charter School for a couple of years with uniforms. Students got used to it and teachers loved it. No issues.

* Khaki or Blue slacks
* Belt
* Socks
* Polo Shirt
* Brown or Black Shoes

Life was a breeze and to tell you the truth it was a lot cheaper in the long run.

>>>>

badkarma

July 7th, 2009, 2:07 pm

? when I was in school, 7th grade was considered --jr high school.
K through 8 school. Was kindergarten also considered Jr high when you were in school, and is it appropriate for those kids?

Anything else I may have said has already been said (and much better than I could have done so) by WorldWatcher.

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 2:09 pm

My son went to a Charter School for a couple of years with uniforms. Students got used to it and teachers loved it. No issues.

* Khaki or Blue slacks
* Belt
* Socks
* Polo Shirt
* Brown or Black Shoes

Life was a breeze and to tell you the truth it was a lot cheaper in the long run.

>>>>

Evidently it is only in Catholic school where we are subjected to plaid. ;)

StoneScratcher

July 7th, 2009, 3:04 pm

This is the reason lots of schools have dresscode policies about t-shirts with writing on them.

I wonder what sort of hoopla and outrage from parents there would have been if a teacher would have worn that shirt.

Government paid teachers work for the government. They are slaves to the government, in other words. They work for the people who pay taxes to the government for public education. Teachers work for the people and the students' parents who pay taxes for those teachers to get paid by the government.

NO government teacher has free speech rights. They cannot, they should not state their personal opinions in the classroom, nor on the school grounds. They are voiceless, and have to hold their tongues and their political statements, religious beliefs, etc to themselves.

The students DO have freedom of speech. Any child can freely say "Merry Christmas!" or "Praise Allah" or, in schools without dresscodes, wear any political statement they want, (of course, within the guidelines of the school's policies and procedures for appropriate language).

Face it teachers--you have to stifle yourselves--shut up.

Students have every right to exercise their freedom of speech (of course, within the guidelines of policy and procedures the school has for appropriate language).

Don't believe me? Be a teacher, in a public school, and wear a T-Shirt such as this child wore (the two fetuses and the blank, empty square)--I'll get your rearend in hot water. Same goes if you wore a T-shirt that said: Obama says abortion is the "intellectual choice" toward being progressive. Your rearend again in hot water.

But for the student? Wear either one of them freely.

notluzn

July 7th, 2009, 3:06 pm

Awesome Shirt. Truth is a Good thing!

Dual867PowerMac

July 7th, 2009, 3:22 pm

jimjames418

July 7th, 2009, 3:35 pm

If the same scenerio had occured within a high school...I could almost buy that a bit more as those students would have a better idea of what the whole subject is about...what the subject matter contains...and have somewhat of an opinion on the subject. K-8 students?...they simply wouldn't have a clue in the lower grades..and barely a clue in the upper grades. So one has to ask...what parent uses their child as a political bill board for the visual use of said message? It's not as if an 7th or 8th grad student would have enough information to discuss the subject in depth...much less talk to a audience who would understand such information if given to them....and..the coup de gras...none of them can vote one way or the other on the subject for another 13 to 4 years anyway. Doesn't make much sense does it?

~Mysty
The district where I was the business manager was divided into elementary (K-5), middle school (6-8), and high school (9-12). The last two years I was there we had 5 middle school girls get pg. One of them was the principals daughter.

And if it is ok to have a beginner reader with a gay couple, why not at the middle school level.

As for the t-shirt, our district had a policy of no writing on clothes at all except for sports, college, and school names/images.

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 3:42 pm

That only encourages promiscuous behavior and does nothing to reduce AIDS infections.

You are seriously trying to claim that Condoms to not reduce the rates of transmission of Sexually Transmitted Diseases? (Of which AIDS is one of many.)

At best a most ill informed position.

>>>>

Values

July 7th, 2009, 3:49 pm

badkarma

July 7th, 2009, 3:55 pm

If school age teens do not have sex can they get sexually transmitted diseases?
abstinence only education does not change the number of kids having sex, but while the number of kids engaging in sex is about the same the kids that have abstinence only education tend to have more unprotected sex.

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 4:06 pm

If school age teens do not have sex can they get sexually transmitted diseases?

If you assume that all teenagers don't have sex. Be my guest. Not very realistic, but you can have that view if you want.

But that wasn't the point. If two people have sex, will or will not, a condom reduce the possibility of STD transfer? The previous statement by another poster was that they do not decrease rates of STD's for sexually active persons. That is false.

So the flip side of your position is that if teenagers do have sex, then Condums are - well - "Condum Sense".

>>>>

jimjames418

July 7th, 2009, 4:34 pm

If you assume that all teenagers don't have sex. Be my guest. Not very realistic, but you can have that view if you want.

But that wasn't the point. If two people have sex, will or will not, a condom reduce the possibility of STD transfer? The previous statement by another poster was that they do not decrease rates of STD's for sexually active persons. That is false.

So the flip side of your position is that if teenagers do have sex, then Condums are - well - "Condum Sense".

>>>>
I still believe that the toothpick method is the best birth control method.

The female places the toothpick between the knees and holds it firmly in place. ;)

StoneScratcher

July 7th, 2009, 4:49 pm

I still believe that the toothpick method is the best birth control method.

The female places the toothpick between the knees and holds it firmly in place. ;)

LOL! um...you do mean with it being held flat with the points flatly down too, right? OUCH.

I also wanted to add...has anyone actually seen an Abstinence curriculum? I have, and I'll tell you, you learn so much about the human body, how it works, why it works, I mean, who knew men had vas deferens or whatever they're called...LOL.

StoneScratcher

July 7th, 2009, 4:51 pm

abstinence only education does not change the number of kids having sex, but while the number of kids engaging in sex is about the same the kids that have abstinence only education tend to have more unprotected sex.

I doubt this. But then again, some say an abstinence only program is simply saying "No sex until you're married." A true abstinence program goes into the heavy detail of why men and women function, how they function, and what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

Values

July 7th, 2009, 4:56 pm

Dual867PowerMac

July 7th, 2009, 5:01 pm

You are seriously trying to claim that Condoms to not reduce the rates of transmission of Sexually Transmitted Diseases? (Of which AIDS is one of many.)

At best a most ill informed position.
During his Papal Visit to Cameroon, Pope Benedict stated an entirely reasonable position that you can't resolve the AIDS epidemic with the distribution of condoms.

"On the contrary, it increases the problem."

I've come to see the wisdom of this position.

"A responsible and moral attitude toward sex would help fight the disease," he said.

How many people in Africa actually use the condoms? Essentially, they're a way to evade responsibility. You don't see many people outside the Catholic Church urging abstinence and telling men infected with AIDS that having sex with an uninfected virgin girl is not a cure.

Values

July 7th, 2009, 5:01 pm

I doubt this. But then again, some say an abstinence only program is simply saying "No sex until you're married." A true abstinence program goes into the heavy detail of why men and women function, how they function, and what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

They need to have a "scared straight" for sex type of class for kids.
Bring in a couple of teen mothers and ask them questions, show an abortion and maybe go into the court cases of deadbeat dad's who don't pay and see their life of financial ruin.
Sex isn't so glamerous and exciting when seen through the eyes of one who had to pay for it later.

badkarma

July 7th, 2009, 5:02 pm

This does not answer the question.
kids have sex. That pretty much covers it. Sure, in a fantasy world they would not and we could say that kids not having sex don't get AIDS, hence they would not need condoms, but here in the real world we need to deal with that reality. And the reality is that kids have sex. Condoms help prevent aids, along with a multitude of other bad things.

badkarma

July 7th, 2009, 5:03 pm

jimjames418

July 7th, 2009, 5:19 pm

They need to have a "scared straight" for sex type of class for kids.
Bring in a couple of teen mothers and ask them questions, show an abortion and maybe go into the court cases of deadbeat dad's who don't pay and see their life of financial ruin.
Sex isn't so glamerous and exciting when seen through the eyes of one who had to pay for it later.
The school where I worked had a program. We averaged 10 to 12 high school girls with babies. There was a classroom equiped as a center to care for babies form birth to age two years. The classroom was overseen by the school nurse, a RN with specialized training in care of the young.

Each high school student was REQUIRED to participate in the program for a six week period. Each student was REQUIRED to change diapers at least four times in the six weeks.

I think it was a very good program and taught the kids a very valuable lesson. But it was shut down by court order when a day care center owner/operator sued the district for taking business away. :frown:

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 5:30 pm

During his Papal Visit to Cameroon, Pope Benedict stated an entirely reasonable position that you can't resolve the AIDS epidemic with the distribution of condoms.

"On the contrary, it increases the problem."

I've come to see the wisdom of this position.

"A responsible and moral attitude toward sex would help fight the disease," he said.

How many people in Africa actually use the condoms? Essentially, they're a way to evade responsibility. You don't see many people outside the Catholic Church urging abstinence and telling men infected with AIDS that having sex with an uninfected virgin girl is not a cure.

Nice deflection to third world country. We are talking about American teenagers and the fact that Condums reduce the possibility of transmitting an STD.

>>>>

StoneScratcher

July 7th, 2009, 5:40 pm

You are free to look up the studies yourself if you would like.

Um? I have them. So, ask a question. I'm ready...I can back up anything I say. Abstinence programs are not a hide your sexuality and deny hormonal rages program. It delves into actual bodily functions, and into so much more...and brings awareness to all things gender-based, sexually based, and UPPER brain thinking based.

We are not animals that cannot THINK of an appropriate time to engage in sex, as if monkeys in a zoo.

WorldWatcher is right, too. Condoms, (also discussed in abstinence programs) is the way to go if one decided to have sex--even with birth control. For example, herpes is a condition which will not kill you--but you will die WITH it. Although condoms are not 100% perfect in protecting one from herpes, at least it is better than nothing.

Values

July 7th, 2009, 5:43 pm

kids have sex. That pretty much covers it. Sure, in a fantasy world they would not and we could say that kids not having sex don't get AIDS, hence they would not need condoms, but here in the real world we need to deal with that reality. And the reality is that kids have sex. Condoms help prevent aids, along with a multitude of other bad things.

Do all kids have sex? Nope. Why?
Not having sex until you are capable of handling what sex brings maybe adults should give them the message they aren't ready. Apparently some adults can't handle telling kids the truth.

StoneScratcher

July 7th, 2009, 5:44 pm

They need to have a "scared straight" for sex type of class for kids.
Bring in a couple of teen mothers and ask them questions, show an abortion and maybe go into the court cases of deadbeat dad's who don't pay and see their life of financial ruin.
Sex isn't so glamerous and exciting when seen through the eyes of one who had to pay for it later.

I like this idea too, for those who think babies are a fashion trend to wear on one's hip, as if a purse or a chihuahua.

Babies cause the permanent condition of parenthood--a life-long endeavor. One should plan--if one has sex, no birth control can say with 100% certainty there will not be a pregnancy.

And then there's abortion, which is used, by some, as a "birth control". But I won't bring that up, because that's a topic that some see as "tissue" in their bellies, unless, of course, they need a living fashion "accessory" to keep on trend.

Mobulis

July 7th, 2009, 5:49 pm

Do all kids have sex? Nope. Why?
Not having sex until you are capable of handling what sex brings maybe adults should give them the message they aren't ready. Apparently some adults can't handle telling kids the truth.

So whats your back up plan for when kids have sex?

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 5:49 pm

Um? I have them. So, ask a question. I'm ready...I can back up anything I say. Abstinence programs are not a hide your sexuality and deny hormonal rages program. It delves into actual bodily functions, and into so much more...and brings awareness to all things gender-based, sexually based, and UPPER brain thinking based.

We are not animals that cannot THINK of an appropriate time to engage in sex, as if monkeys in a zoo.

WorldWatcher is right, too. Condoms, (also discussed in abstinence programs) is the way to go if one decided to have sex--even with birth control. For example, herpes is a condition which will not kill you--but you will die WITH it. Although condoms are not 100% perfect in protecting one from herpes, at least it is better than nothing.[/QUOTE]

SS,

With all due respect, I would suggest the when "most" people hear the words "Abstinence only" programs they are specifically thinking along the lines of denying instruction on preventing STDs and pregnancy through the use of Condoms (STDs & pregnancy), physical birth control, or chemical birth control.

I normally don't do a lot of quoting from Wiki, but in this case it is appropriate...

Abstinence-only sex education is a form of sex education that emphasizes abstinence from sex to the exclusion of all other types of sexual and reproductive health education, particularly regarding birth control and safe sex. This type of sex education promotes sexual abstinence until marriage and either completely avoids any discussion about the use of contraceptives, or only reveals failure rates associated with such use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstinence-only_sex_education

Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problems with emphasizing abstinence as the only 100% way of eliminating the possibility of STD or pregnancy. However I think it can be integrated into a Comprehensive program that provides information on human sexuality and consequences of irresponsible sex, but can also teach teenagers how to avoid some of those complications. I 100% agree with Values on the "Scared Straight" type of information as part of an overall program, show them the consequences, bring it home to the real world.

>>>>

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 5:51 pm

So whats your back up plan for when kids have sex?

A visit to "Baby's-R-Us".

:D:D:D

OK, Sorry, I couldn't resist. :angel:

>>>>

StoneScratcher

July 7th, 2009, 5:58 pm

We are not animals that cannot THINK of an appropriate time to engage in sex, as if monkeys in a zoo.

WorldWatcher is right, too. Condoms, (also discussed in abstinence programs) is the way to go if one decided to have sex--even with birth control. For example, herpes is a condition which will not kill you--but you will die WITH it. Although condoms are not 100% perfect in protecting one from herpes, at least it is better than nothing.

SS,

With all due respect, I would suggest the when "most" people hear the words "Abstinence only" programs they are specifically thinking along the lines of denying instruction on preventing STDs and pregnancy through the use of Condoms (STDs & pregnancy), physical birth control, or chemical birth control.

I normally don't do a lot of quoting from Wiki, but in this case it is appropriate...
Abstinence-only sex education is a form of sex education that emphasizes abstinence from sex to the exclusion of all other types of sexual and reproductive health education, particularly regarding birth control and safe sex. This type of sex education promotes sexual abstinence until marriage and either completely avoids any discussion about the use of contraceptives, or only reveals failure rates associated with such use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstinence-only_sex_education

Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problems with emphasizing abstinence as the only 100% way of eliminating the possibility of STD or pregnancy. However I think it can be integrated into a Comprehensive program that provides information on human sexuality and consequences of irresponsible sex, but can also teach teenagers how to avoid some of those complications. I 100% agree with Values on the "Scared Straight" type of information as part of an overall program, show them the consequences, bring it home to the real world.

>>>>[/quote]

Yes, you are right in not quoting anything from wiki. I, in fact, know that abstinence includes more than what public schools teach in regard to all things sexual, gender-based, and also the "thinking" first aspect in regard to body vs brain.

This wiki "article" is crapola, as is most of what they say when it comes to things that have to do with a certain bias toward giving out information and misinformation.

Values

July 7th, 2009, 5:58 pm

So whats your back up plan for when kids have sex?

Life is full of consequences to our actions.
Sometimes we have to learn early and hard.

5thIDSoldier

July 7th, 2009, 5:59 pm

Yeah only Gay, Lesbian and Transgender murals are okay in school. (like our local high school has) :rolleyes:

Which gets to the entire point of the OP. If it were a pro-choice shirt, nothing would have been said about it.

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 6:03 pm

I, in fact, know that abstinence includes more than what public schools teach in regard to all things sexual, gender-based, and also the "thinking" first aspect in regard to body vs brain.

Sorry, I thought the discussion had become about "Abstinence Only" v. "Comprehensive" sexual education in the Public Schools.

If you are not talking about public schools, then we are all free to teach what we want anyway.

(Oh - btw - as a follow-up to that comment, every school system that I know of allows parents to Opt out of sex education in public schools.)

>>>>

Values

July 7th, 2009, 7:08 pm

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 7:59 pm

Did you know that the state of wash. has opted out of abstinence only as part of it's curriculum?
They decided it was better to not get fed $$$ and not have to teach that abstinence works. better to say " have at it all you want just wear protection guys.")
Nice.:rolleyes:

Senate Education Committee Chairwoman Rosemary McAuliffe, D-Bothell, sponsored the bill and was unapologetic about forgoing the money.

"I'm not chasing the dollar," she said. "The state of Washington made its decision; we did as a Legislature, that we believe kids ought to be taught a comprehensive sex education with abstinence-only included in that program. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/344701_education24.html

Good for them. Education is a State function not a Federal one. States should be setting Constitutionally legal curriculum not Washington.

Abstinence is part of the curriculum mandated under state law, so I guess your comment that they are teaching "have at it all you want just wear protection guys" is false.

See a Comprehensive Sex Ed class includes information on STD's, physical pregnancy prevention (condoms, IUDs, etc...), and chemical pregnancy prevention (all while giving parents an opt-out method of controlling information flow to their own children). On the other hand there is a group that wants to mandate "Abstinence Only" so that they can control the flow of reputable, scientific, and biologically accurate information to other people children (since they already have that control over their own).

How about Washington State Law...

By September 1, 2008, every public school that offers sexual health education must assure that sexual health education is medically and scientifically accurate, age-appropriate, appropriate for students regardless of gender, race, disability status, or sexual orientation, and includes information about abstinence and other methods of preventing unintended pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. All sexual health information, instruction, and materials must be medically and scientifically accurate. Abstinence may not be taught to the exclusion of other materials and instruction on contraceptives and disease prevention. A school may choose to use separate, outside speakers or prepared curriculum to teach different content areas or units within the comprehensive sexual health program as long as all speakers, curriculum, and materials used are in compliance with this section. Sexual health education must be consistent with the January 2005 guidelines for sexual health information and disease prevention developed by the department of health and the office of the superintendent of public instruction.

Oh and how about...

Any parent or legal guardian who wishes to have his or her child excused from any planned instruction in sexual health education may do so upon filing a written request with the school district board of directors or its designee, or the principal of the school his or her child attends, or the principal's designee. In addition, any parent or legal guardian may review the sexual health education curriculum offered in his or her child's school by filing a written request with the school district board of directors, the principal of the school his or her child attends, or the principal's designee.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=28A.300.475

************************************************

I don't see anything in their that says - hey kids have at it.

and...

Oops, so much for not teaching abstinence.

>>>>

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 8:02 pm

Government paid teachers work for the government. They are slaves to the government, in other words. They work for the people who pay taxes to the government for public education. Teachers work for the people and the students' parents who pay taxes for those teachers to get paid by the government.

NO government teacher has free speech rights. They cannot, they should not state their personal opinions in the classroom, nor on the school grounds. They are voiceless, and have to hold their tongues and their political statements, religious beliefs, etc to themselves.

The students DO have freedom of speech. Any child can freely say "Merry Christmas!" or "Praise Allah" or, in schools without dresscodes, wear any political statement they want, (of course, within the guidelines of the school's policies and procedures for appropriate language).

Face it teachers--you have to stifle yourselves--shut up.

Students have every right to exercise their freedom of speech (of course, within the guidelines of policy and procedures the school has for appropriate language).

Don't believe me? Be a teacher, in a public school, and wear a T-Shirt such as this child wore (the two fetuses and the blank, empty square)--I'll get your rearend in hot water. Same goes if you wore a T-shirt that said: Obama says abortion is the "intellectual choice" toward being progressive. Your rearend again in hot water.

But for the student? Wear either one of them freely.

It's a good thing I teach in private school then. The kids play by OUR rules,and if the parents don't like that we can tell them to leave.

Personally I know better than to wear crap like that. I don't live my life to be ANYONE's free billboard.

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 8:05 pm

Which gets to the entire point of the OP. If it were a pro-choice shirt, nothing would have been said about it.

I call ******** on that. Frankly niether shirt is appropriate for school. Advertising your agenda is for outside school, not inside.

StoneScratcher

July 7th, 2009, 8:06 pm

It's a good thing I teach in private school then. The kids play by OUR rules,and if the parents don't like that we can tell them to leave.

Personally I know better than to wear crap like that. I don't live my life to be ANYONE's free billboard.

Actually, don't you see, in your private school, that the parents get more say in what is and what is not allowed for their children? Nothing like a bunch of upset paying-the-tuition parents pounding at the Head of School's office door.

StoneScratcher

July 7th, 2009, 8:11 pm

Sorry, I thought the discussion had become about "Abstinence Only" v. "Comprehensive" sexual education in the Public Schools.

If you are not talking about public schools, then we are all free to teach what we want anyway.

(Oh - btw - as a follow-up to that comment, every school system that I know of allows parents to Opt out of sex education in public schools.)

>>>>

I'm sorry then. I believe that parents are able to maneuver the same way, basically, in both private and public schools (including charter schools). The rights of the child are important for each parent to fight for--if need be.

Yes, there is an opt out on all schools here in Massachusetts (the ones I am aware of). In public, charter schools, and private.

In MA, Mitt Romney had fought to have an all encompassing sex education course for MA public school kids (including charter, which are publically funded here). The amount that was federally approved to come into MA was over $750,000.00. When Romney left, Obama's best friend, Deval Patrick became governor (the "just words" Obama pal--the guy Obama copied his "just words" speech from). When the deadline came to APPROVE this sex education program, which included abstinence, Deval Patrick turned the funding away--all because abstinence was in it. Just some random MA trivia, I suppose, but thanks for letting me vent. lol!

angelicmadrigal

July 7th, 2009, 8:12 pm

Actually, don't you see, in your private school, that the parents get more say in what is and what is not allowed for their children? Nothing like a bunch of upset paying-the-tuition parents pounding at the Head of School's office door.

Actually, that doesn't happen. When parents cause problems or don't pay their bill we kick their kids out. It's very simple. I am lucky the administrator is on MY side, not the parents. Which is nice because the parents all KNOW the rules, and if they break them, which I can clearly point out, and they start **** their kid is gone.

Also, our administrator isn't in that often so most of the parents talk to me.

WorldWatcher

July 7th, 2009, 8:22 pm

I'm sorry then. I believe that parents are able to maneuver the same way, basically, in both private and public schools (including charter schools). The rights of the child are important for each parent to fight for--if need be.

Yes, there is an opt out on all schools here in Massachusetts (the ones I am aware of). In public, charter schools, and private.

In MA, Mitt Romney had fought to have an all encompassing sex education course for MA public school kids (including charter, which are publically funded here). The amount that was federally approved to come into MA was over $750,000.00. When Romney left, Obama's best friend, Deval Patrick became governor (the "just words" Obama pal--the guy Obama copied his "just words" speech from). When the deadline came to APPROVE this sex education program, which included abstinence, Deval Patrick turned the funding away--all because abstinence was in it. Just some random MA trivia, I suppose, but thanks for letting me vent. lol!

You might want to check on our facts. If I'm not mistaken, most Sex Education Grants from the Federal Government in years past have been tied to "Abstinence Only". An attempt to lure State education agencies to NOT teach Comprehensive Sex Ed programs so that they would qualify for federal $$$.

So the money for MA probably wasn't turned down because it contained "abstinence" instruction, it was probably turned down because the strings attached to it limited it to "abstinence only" instruction.

Oh and about my previous comments about "Abstinence Only" in regards to what is left out...

Abstinence-only programs encourage participants, typically teens, to abstain from sex and don't discuss contraception, except to point out its failings. The program got its start in the 1996 welfare-overhaul law and was later expanded by the Republican-controlled Congress.

Wall Street Journal May 7 2009 (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124171750523696797.html)

>>>>

Plasmaball

July 7th, 2009, 8:35 pm

why not? condoms and cucumbers are ok. taking them to gay weddings is fine. Books about having gay parents is in the green. speaking of green, scaring the crap out of them telling them the world is gonna end because people are horrible and killing the planet is ok too. Oh wait, I understand now. This isn't in line with left idealogy, so of course it's not appropriate. :rolleyes:

You do not have first amendment rights in a school..I suggest people learn this fact.
It is seemingly on epic scales ignored because...well....i have no ****ing clue really.

Megeara

July 7th, 2009, 10:47 pm

A few things to keep in mind.

1) In most southern California schools, dress codes are enforced. I remember getting an agenda with the dress code in it starting from elementary though middle school as well as a copy your parents were made to sign.

2) In that agenda you recieved and on the paper, it was discussed over and over, for the first like 3 days of class so they beat it into your head. This you can wear, this you cant. Its pretty clear at least down here in SoCal that gang affiliations, political statements, religious statements, ect ect are inappropriate attire for school.

3) Most schools require parental consent forms to be signed and returned for a student to participate in Sex Ed at all anymore. If a parent doesn't want their child learning about sex, they dont have to allow them to learn about it. Until you hit highschool and biology covers the technical way a woman gets pregnant, its usually a consensual learning experience.

4) Most schools do in fact teach abstinence only now. However, it is unrealistic to NOT teach some sort of protection methods too. You cannot say every child will choose abstinence, obviously by some of the examples given. Again, consent from the parent is required.

CaughtInTheMiddle

July 7th, 2009, 10:58 pm

I am so grateful that my parents didn't use me as a political pawn. For either side.

Clintville

July 7th, 2009, 11:08 pm

why not? condoms and cucumbers are ok. taking them to gay weddings is fine. Books about having gay parents is in the green. speaking of green, scaring the crap out of them telling them the world is gonna end because people are horrible and killing the planet is ok too. Oh wait, I understand now. This isn't in line with left idealogy, so of course it's not appropriate.
No. It violates political neutrality. Also, it is pretty inappropriate. Sex education is, well, education. Also, the kids don't have to go if the parents do not want them to.

badkarma

July 8th, 2009, 9:02 am

WorldWatcher is right, too. Condoms, (also discussed in abstinence programs) is the way to go if one decided to have sex--even with birth control. For example, herpes is a condition which will not kill you--but you will die WITH it. Although condoms are not 100% perfect in protecting one from herpes, at least it is better than nothing.
Abstinence as taught in an encompassing curriculum is not the same as teaching abstinence only, which the comment I made and you responded to was about.

5thIDSoldier

July 8th, 2009, 12:31 pm

The dress code was cleaverly used as an excuse to erradicate this t-shirts message.

mysticbeauty_nbeast

July 8th, 2009, 12:57 pm

School dress codes have under gone a 're-vamping' in the past 20 years in California. It used to be limited to logo's of illicit drugs/drug use or gangster affiliated dress or even violent messages...now...it's anything that has a message. Regardless what that message is...regardless how popular or unpopular the message may be..school environments have placed the same rules upon them all. That rule...keep it at home.

This specific T-shirt...which was worn by a 7th grader in a Modesto combined elementary and middle school, falls well within the guidelines established by California school districts dress code. It wouldn't have matted if the T-shirt has a sexual theme or not, a political theme or not, or a message theme or not...the whole lot falls under the same guidelines. Parents and students are more then aware of the guidelines on dress code..as they read and sign a compliance notice at the beggining of the school year.

What extends to the students does also extend to the staff. As explained by other posters...the limit on message themed t-shirts is to keep a environment of learning paramount...keeping the outside world fodder at bay for the few hours a day kids are in said environment. The focus in school should be learning...not political ideological debates.

Seeing as children are in school for a limited time period in their weekly lives; it leaves open for any attire they deem suitable in after school/non-school time.

~Mysty

WorldWatcher

July 8th, 2009, 12:59 pm

The dress code was cleaverly used as an excuse to erradicate this t-shirts message.

But of course, everyone knows school board policies are to be ignored on issues where a parent uses their child to make a political statement and gin up an excuse to make headlines in the newspaper.

Heaven forbid that a school actually enforce a dress code policy.

:rolleyes:

>>>>

5thIDSoldier

July 8th, 2009, 1:00 pm

Clintville

July 8th, 2009, 1:08 pm

If somewhat wore a "legalize it" shirt, I don't think the same people would be screaming "free speech violation!"

And since the school can decide what is acceptable, it isn't any violation of the First Amendment.

mysticbeauty_nbeast

July 8th, 2009, 1:09 pm

If thats the way it truly is enforced, then it's fine with me.

The problem with most public schools where I live is that such enforcement is VERY selective and spotty at best, depending on the views of those doing the enforcing.

I can only speak to California schools..as the dress code standards have been fairly consistent district to district here. During the crazed Prop 8 debate...high school kids bucked up against the dress code..many of them being sent home to change their message riddled t-shirts. This went on for a week. That's where the whole 'bumper sticker' wars began. Since no 'bumper sticker' code enforcement was in the guidelines, the darn things started showing up on binders, hall walls, desks, lockers and anywhere they would stick. It was a mess. So, a new code had to be added to the guidelines. :rolleyes:

Where do these types of logo'd t's and bumper stickers come from? When speaking to elementary school aged kids and even middle/jr. high school aged students...those items are bought or attained by an adult. High school...usually it's 50/50...sometimes bought by parents, sometimes bougth by students. Either way, it's an interjection of a political message within a environment that should be free of such messages.

~Mysty

Values

July 8th, 2009, 6:51 pm

I can only speak to California schools..as the dress code standards have been fairly consistent district to district here. During the crazed Prop 8 debate...high school kids bucked up against the dress code..many of them being sent home to change their message riddled t-shirts. This went on for a week. That's where the whole 'bumper sticker' wars began. Since no 'bumper sticker' code enforcement was in the guidelines, the darn things started showing up on binders, hall walls, desks, lockers and anywhere they would stick. It was a mess. So, a new code had to be added to the guidelines. :rolleyes:

Where do these types of logo'd t's and bumper stickers come from? When speaking to elementary school aged kids and even middle/jr. high school aged students...those items are bought or attained by an adult. High school...usually it's 50/50...sometimes bought by parents, sometimes bougth by students. Either way, it's an interjection of a political message within a environment that should be free of such messages.

~Mysty

Does that include teachers and any and all political, spiritual and sexual bent they may have?

tinydancer

July 8th, 2009, 8:08 pm

Good. Very good.

I guess the truth of the message in the t-shirt hurts.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/543335/0_21_070609_abortion2.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530284,00.html?test=latestnews

If the mods could resize this image for me, that would be great. I dont know how to do that.

Did you get that part in the article that called the photos of the fetus "graphic"?

Holy toledo, what have we come to in journalism when beautiful pictures of a living baby in the womb is called "graphic"? Even at fox.

Wow. Just wow.

Megeara

July 8th, 2009, 11:28 pm

Does that include teachers and any and all political, spiritual and sexual bent they may have?

Actually yes it does. Teachers nowadays have to be very very careful on what they say about their views on politics, religion, sexual orientation ect.

DLaw911

July 9th, 2009, 2:32 am

I have rather mixed feelings about this. First, the freedom of speech issue, should always prevail unless there is a compelling reason to restrict it. We all know the law does not allow shouting "fire" in a crowded movie.

And then I have to ask myself, what if someone wore a t-shirt with an opposing message that says, "Abortion is good, Abortion saves natural resources from overpopulation." I'm sure 99.9% of the folks here would want that shirt ripped off whoever wore it even if that person was left naked!

So then the ultimate question is whether or not the message was inappropriate for an elementary school and I think it is. It is LITERALLY sex education! And as I recall children do not receive sex education without parental permission.

Now if the age group was older, let's say high school, I would probably feel different and not agree with the school district. Of course I have always been of the opinion that public school students should wear uniforms on campus and not be allowed to wear any expressive accoutrements including jewelry and insignias ... and ban cell phones too. Just my opinion. These personality expressions are distractions to learning. Kids are sent to school to learn, not to put on a fashion show, including "I have more expensive clothes than you!", or cause controversy.

Paul31

July 9th, 2009, 3:04 am

I think it could fall under nonviolent free speech, much like Tinkers vs. Des Moines School District 1971.

mysticbeauty_nbeast

July 9th, 2009, 3:03 pm

Does that include teachers and any and all political, spiritual and sexual bent they may have?

It is my understanding that the dress code extends out to any and all participants within the public school system; students, teachers and staff.

Does that mean there aren't those teachers or students or staff that don't push the guidelines? No...I'm sure there are those who push a message for whatever reason..and are dealt with per the districts guidelines.

~Mysty

DLaw911

July 9th, 2009, 4:18 pm

I think it could fall under nonviolent free speech, much like Tinkers vs. Des Moines School District 1971.That was a high school case involving 16 and 16 year old more mature students.

Do you think elementary school kids should received sex education? Do you think abortion should be discussed in the elementary school classsrooms even with parental consent? If not then that says something about the appropriateness of the T-shirt. This is one of those TRUE slippery slope discussions because the next thing you will be seeing is kids wearing "Keep Abortion Legal" shirts.

Paul31

July 9th, 2009, 5:47 pm

That was a high school case involving 16 and 16 year old more mature students.

Do you think elementary school kids should received sex education? Do you think abortion should be discussed in the elementary school classsrooms even with parental consent? If not then that says something about the appropriateness of the T-shirt. This is one of those TRUE slippery slope discussions because the next thing you will be seeing is kids wearing "Keep Abortion Legal" shirts.
Not sure about California, but they do teach sex ed in 7th and 8th grade in Wyoming. I think the only ones that would be offended by it is the administration. You want to see inappropriate shirts, try tshirthell.com. Some of them would get adults kicked out of public places. :)) But hey the best part of my previous post was that I got the right case that I was thinking about. As for me, I wouldn't find it offensive at all as an administrator.

Oh and nice to see you back here again. I often would think about how you were doing, incredibly it was while the latest OJ trial in Vegas, and hoped you would return some day. :)

Sketch

July 9th, 2009, 6:27 pm

it's clearly free expression. I think the tee shirt is fine.

Megeara

July 10th, 2009, 4:46 am

That was a high school case involving 16 and 16 year old more mature students.

Do you think elementary school kids should received sex education? Do you think abortion should be discussed in the elementary school classsrooms even with parental consent? If not then that says something about the appropriateness of the T-shirt. This is one of those TRUE slippery slope discussions because the next thing you will be seeing is kids wearing "Keep Abortion Legal" shirts.

Well to my knowledge the scope of sexual education doesnt include abortion. I dont remember talking about abortions until highschool, but it wasnt even in a classroom. They do talk about miscarriages, how a woman were to get pregnant, the technical stuff, but abortion isnt covered.

I believe that sex ed should be taught how it was to me. It wasnt until about 4th grade they did ANYTHING regarding sex ed and it was only to teach girls about menstration. In 5th grade they did very very little on the sexual front. 6th grade we got technical, labeling things on the male and female body. I think there needs to be a fine line on what is taught for sure. Abortion, not really something elementary kids should be learning about. Condoms, eh also not really something I consider elementary school material. 6th grade and up? Sure, teach them abstinence and give them some education on how to protect themselves, should they decide to have sex, but elementary kids? No way.

DLaw911

July 10th, 2009, 5:08 am

it's clearly free expression. I think the tee shirt is fine.How about a t-shirt with a marijuana leaf? A t-shirt with a picture of two men kissing? Don't you get the feeling that kids are being used by their parents as billboards because it's not the elementary school kids going out and buying these shirts.

BrittleBullet

July 10th, 2009, 6:08 am

Did you get that part in the article that called the photos of the fetus "graphic"?

Holy toledo, what have we come to in journalism when beautiful pictures of a living baby in the womb is called "graphic"? Even at fox.

Wow. Just wow.

The one on the left looks kinda gross.

sgdp

July 10th, 2009, 6:21 am

Oh, suck it up and deal with. What money-hungry parents.

sgdp

July 10th, 2009, 6:28 am

5thIDSoldier

July 10th, 2009, 4:23 pm

For those of you who may be interested in purchasing the t-shirt, PM me for the link.

dittoheadAZ

July 11th, 2009, 2:03 am

Good. Very good.

I guess the truth of the message in the t-shirt hurts.

http://www.foxnews.com/images/543335/0_21_070609_abortion2.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,530284,00.html?test=latestnews

If the mods could resize this image for me, that would be great. I dont know how to do that.

I like how the article calls the picture of the baby growing in the womb a "graphic picture". Looks like the Liberals have even infiltrated the FOX newsroom!

dittoheadAZ

July 11th, 2009, 2:06 am

why not? condoms and cucumbers are ok. taking them to gay weddings is fine. Books about having gay parents is in the green. speaking of green, scaring the crap out of them telling them the world is gonna end because people are horrible and killing the planet is ok too. Oh wait, I understand now. This isn't in line with left idealogy, so of course it's not appropriate. :rolleyes:

:clap: :clap: :clap:

+24

If all that other stuff was prohibited, then I could see where all of the "this isn't appropriate for school" folks would have a legitimate complaint. But as it stands, it means they're just a bunch of Leftist Whiners because some kid DARED to break out of the Liberal Indoctrination Mandated Philosophy.

Megeara

July 11th, 2009, 2:13 am

:clap: :clap: :clap:

+24

If all that other stuff was prohibited, then I could see where all of the "this isn't appropriate for school" folks would have a legitimate complaint. But as it stands, it means they're just a bunch of Leftist Whiners because some kid DARED to break out of the Liberal Indoctrination Mandated Philosophy.

So you believe that the child chose to wear this to school, knew what it meant and advocated the message at the age of what? 12? 13?
I have a younger brother, hes 12 now. You say abortion and he looks at you like you grew a second head.

The student's choice to wear that shirt to school is being confused with the parent's pushing and persuading the child that its a REAL COOL SHIRT! YOU SHOULD WEAR IT TODAY!.

Crystal

July 11th, 2009, 9:20 am

I am thinking this is probably not appropriate wear for an elementary school.

7th grade is not elementary school.

Crystal

July 11th, 2009, 9:21 am

sgdp

July 11th, 2009, 10:49 am

7th grade is not elementary school.

But it was a K-8 school, I think.

RogerDodger

July 11th, 2009, 11:00 am

Parents should just let kids be kids. I don't for one second believe this child chose this shirt herself. The parent was looking to make a political statement and/or cash in, plain and simple.

Megeara

July 11th, 2009, 3:44 pm

12/13 is past the age of cognition and unless a child is very very naive in this day and age (unlikely) they know where babies come from.

Im sure by now they know where babies come from that wasnt what I was arguing. I was arguing that a child at age 12/13 shouldnt, and probably doesnt know what an abortion is unless their parent has talked to them about it.

Sketch

July 15th, 2009, 7:38 am

How about a t-shirt with a marijuana leaf? A t-shirt with a picture of two men kissing? Don't you get the feeling that kids are being used by their parents as billboards because it's not the elementary school kids going out and buying these shirts.

nope - both of your examples would be fine with me

tblaze

July 15th, 2009, 12:28 pm

So you believe that the child chose to wear this to school, knew what it meant and advocated the message at the age of what? 12? 13?
I have a younger brother, hes 12 now. You say abortion and he looks at you like you grew a second head.

The student's choice to wear that shirt to school is being confused with the parent's pushing and persuading the child that its a REAL COOL SHIRT! YOU SHOULD WEAR IT TODAY!.

I think that probably sums up the whole story, besides were do they get the isea of being mistreated at ?

When I went to school if the shirt was inappropiate they just made you turn it inside out or call home for the parents to bring a new one end of story.

I personally see nothing wrong with the shirt but it also depends on the rules of the school and they should start there. If it breaks the rules then that should be the end of the story. If the principle just had a problem with the shirt because it goes against his beliefs then that is wrong.

It is just a waste to spend the school's money and draggin your child thru the court process over a t-shirt. You shouldn't be sitting at home trying to figure out how to get a reaction and get your name in the paper.

countmein

July 15th, 2009, 4:46 pm

Im sure by now they know where babies come from that wasnt what I was arguing. I was arguing that a child at age 12/13 shouldnt, and probably doesnt know what an abortion is unless their parent has talked to them about it.

Wait, kids in Jr. High are suppose to be taught everything about sex, except what an abortion is?

Maybe I am wrong here, but "I" did teach my daughter about sex, and yes abortion, when she was around 10. She started her period that early and I was pregnant with her brother. That opened a lot of doors for discussion. She was there for all the sonograms and waiting outside the OR to be the first to hold her brother and then later, both her sisters.

And people, if you don't think that they are aware of what abortion is at 12/13, you are quite naive. At 13, my daughter was riding with 4 other girls to a soccer game, when they saw a pro-life billboard from the KC's. Every girl in that car knew what it was and had a very heated debate about it. One girl claimed that she was very pro-choice and stated that single women should not have to live with a mistake their entire life. When she asked my daughter what she thought, my daughter very calmly told her that she was one of those "mistakes" (I was not married when I had her) and that she was glad that her mother decided to live with her. The conversation ended there.

Now, as far as the T-shirt goes...... I would not let my child wear that to school, and not because I disagree with the message. I just don't think school is the place for such things. Just the same as the day of silence and such. There are a lot of T-shirts that I see online and at the mall that I don't feel students should be wearing to school, but I do see them at the high school. Some of the T-shirts that I have seen that I find inappropriate don't even have writing on them, they are simply tight, see-through and skimpy. Now, if she wanted to wear this T-shirt to the mall, grocery store, or soccer practice, so be it.