Home invasion!!! Reep!

[Proud Mom and Teacher]

How is it OK for the government to tell you how energy efficient your home has to be? All new homes will have to be complaint by 2012.

The section from the energy bill that addresses this is called the RETROFIT FOR ENERGY AND ENVIORNMENTAL PERFORMANCE (REEP).


Here is a heated debate (from 7/2/09 Neil Cavuto's hour) about this massive government intrusion.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=6487582&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ (http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=6487582&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/)

(called "Home Invasion?" on the foxnews.com site)

For good measure check out this link. Big Brother is coming. I became more and more angry as I read some of the provisions. Who in the heck is the "Administrator"?



http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2009/07/cap-and-trade-retrofit-for-energy-and.html (http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2009/07/cap-and-trade-retrofit-for-energy-and.html)


:mad:

[George Walton]

And while they're poking all around your home, including looking into closets etc, I wonder if they'll be taking note of any firearms & gun safes homeowners may have?

.

[Physics Hunter]

Makes me want to tell them to stuff it on the peripheral items on the Census.

[rhet 2]

They come through my front door at gunpoint, prepared to kill -- or they don't come in at all.

Basic American precept set long before the Revolution: a man's home is his castle -- INVIOLABLE and not subject to gubmit goon search and seizure without a warrant based on suspicion of CRIMINAL activity

And lilberals bitched about the Patriot Act being an Invasion of Privacy? Hypocrits and liars -- destroying our privacy is just fine, as long as a Commie Thug gets to do it

[Proud Mom and Teacher]

And while they're poking all around your home, including looking into closets etc, I wonder if they'll be taking note of any firearms & gun safes homeowners may have?

.

There is also that.

I don't think that the government has the right to tell me what appliances I can have, how many plugs, what type of heating system, etc. If you are building a home in the middle of the woods, you will not get the permits to build without being complaint. Just as you need permits to build now, these energy measures will be right there on the list with smoke detectors.

Those saying they won't let people in to check....well, good luck with that.

Of course, those trying to sell their homes after 2012 will have to bring them up to compliance. How do you make your home 30% more efficient without adding $60,000 worth of solar panels? Of course, as the man stated in the OP link, that will save the person buying the home $500 a year. At that rate, the panels will pay for themselves in exactly 120 YEARS.

[Buffalo]

There are already commercial code compliances. Residential as well. Not sure what this is about particularly, but seems just part of the creep. This will most likely be enforced when you go to get a permit for new work on your home. Currently in NY, when you get a permit for construction, you must comply with building code mandates as well, for example, hardwired smoke detectors.

[simssk]

There are already commercial code compliances. Residential as well. Not sure what this is about particularly, but seems just part of the creep. This will most likely be enforced when you go to get a permit for new work on your home. Currently in NY, when you get a permit for construction, you must comply with building code mandates as well, for example, hardwired smoke detectors.

This goes way beyond commercial code compliances that are in place for SAFETY. Not some bullcrap "global warming". They think the housing market is bad now, they haven't seen anything yet.

[Buffalo]

This goes way beyond commercial code compliances that are in place for SAFETY. Not some bullcrap "global warming". They think the housing market is bad now, they haven't seen anything yet.
Ummm no. There is a comcheck requirement in NYS. Energy compliance to get your permit. Are you in construction or design? This is merely giving the Feds power that the states already have. I don't like that, but it is not a drastic change beyond that.

[simssk]

Ummm no. There is a comcheck requirement in NYS. Energy compliance to get your permit. Are you in construction or design? This is merely giving the Feds power that the states already have. I don't like that, but it is not a drastic change beyond that.
No, I'm not in construction. But from what I've read about the bill and what I listened to Rep. Boehner say about the restrictions/requirements in this bill go way beyond what any sensible person would require.

I understand things are very regulated in New York and you've got more taxes and laws to deal with then we'd ever dream of in this state, but c'mon - you think these regulations are reasonable? What will happen when people try to sell their older homes in the north and northeast. Are most people going to be able to afford the energy requirements?

And just because New York state thinks its just swell to regulate everything, including lightbulbs - that's just fine. Keep it in New York state.

[shrek]

Ummm no. There is a comcheck requirement in NYS. Energy compliance to get your permit. Are you in construction or design? This is merely giving the Feds power that the states already have. I don't like that, but it is not a drastic change beyond that.

Again Not quite. Care to list the New Federal Rules and the NYState rules???? the proposed Federal rules are very comprehensive and very expensive.

I want to see how they are exactly the same as NY state.

And since your saying your the expert on this surely your the right person to make such a comparison right?

[Tom394]

If the bureaucrats miss the "Trespassers will be SHOT" sign, they're in for a world of hurt.

[VCaddy05]

This is one issue that bothers me to no end. I cant tell you how unacceptable I find it to potentially have someone come in to my own home and poke around. Thats something they will have to get authorities to force upon me, because I wont allow that. However, I will have to see how this plays out, because I cant imagine them just coming door to door to check your light bulbs. LOL

[shrek]

This is one issue that bothers me to no end. I cant tell you how unacceptable I find it to potentially have someone come in to my own home and poke around. Thats something they will have to get authorities to force upon me, because I wont allow that. However, I will have to see how this plays out, because I cant imagine them just coming door to door to check your light bulbs. LOL

Ah but they will not be coming door to door to check your light bulbs.

They will be doing it the moment you choose to list your home.

How does that strike you?????????????

A home that is most likely the most expensive investment you will ever have and which was perfectly fine and legal when you bought it now cannot be sold by you unless you put thousands of unnecessary repairs in it just to bring it up to Code to help save the planet from Global warming which has never been proven.

That is hog Huey and I truly do believe it to be a home invasion. They have just found another way to take away your rights and tell you what you can and cannot do.

And for those of you that think this is good and not full of graft and corruption. A couple of years back, I had to smog test my truck to register my truck. My truck failed the emissions test because a sensor was out. But the stats given on the sheet said my truck passed. I only failed because of a sensor. It cost me $680 to get the problem fixed.

All because of Government regs. AND GET THIS. My car was not polluting the air.

:rolleyes:

[shrek]

If the bureaucrats miss the "Trespassers will be SHOT" sign, they're in for a world of hurt.

Ah but even though they are beaurocrats they are smart. They do not have to walk past the Trespassers will be shot sign.

They stand back and tell you that unless you let them in you cannot sell your home.

Thats whats so scummy and diabolical about this.

[VCaddy05]

Ah but they will not be coming door to door to check your light bulbs.

They will be doing it the moment you choose to list your home.

How does that strike you?????????????

A home that is most likely the most expensive investment you will ever have and which was perfectly fine and legal when you bought it now cannot be sold by you unless you put thousands of unnecessary repairs in it just to bring it up to Code to help save the planet from Global warming which has never been proven.

That is hog Huey and I truly do believe it to be a home invasion. They have just found another way to take away your rights and tell you what you can and cannot do.

And for those of you that think this is good and not full of graft and corruption. A couple of years back, I had to smog test my truck to register my truck. My truck failed the emissions test because a sensor was out. But the stats given on the sheet said my truck passed. I only failed because of a sensor. It cost me $680 to get the problem fixed.

All because of Government regs. AND GET THIS. My car was not polluting the air.

:rolleyes:

oh i know that its going to be when you sell your home, which I hate, and call me paranoid but I dont doubt that the issue on day will be tossed around to checking homes just like reading a meter, or tax assessments, where they will be inspecting your home every so often.
Oh dont get me started on emissionis, I passed with flying colors, but because my check engine light was on they would not pass me, and the issue was in the electronics, which I dont mess with. Having electrical work is extremely expensive, and so expensive I would pay the state of maryland $15 per month just not to have my car tested! It was insane, luckily one day someone ran a redlight and killed that car for me! LOL

[Army Wife]

From what I have been hearing the Fed Regulations will be based on CA regulations and we all know how fantastic that has been for the car industry...right.

[Proud Mom and Teacher]

Ummm no. There is a comcheck requirement in NYS. Energy compliance to get your permit. Are you in construction or design? This is merely giving the Feds power that the states already have. I don't like that, but it is not a drastic change beyond that.

They are going to tell you the level of energy efficiency you MUST have in your home. Builders are going to be hit the hardest. Solar panels on new homes are not cheap. It will be reflected in the final price of the homes that new contractors are putting out. Can you imagine how they are going to promote the solar panels? With the pitch that they will pay for themselves in 120 years? My guess, to keep the prices competitive they will skimp on other items.

You should read the links and you will see to what degree they are wishing to mandate restrictions. It should make your blood boil. My main concern is having to meet the 30% threshold if I want to sell my home in the future as well. Well, I guess that's not true, I'm equally concerned that the government thinks they can tell me what kind of a washing machine to get, or what kind of pool/hot tub I can install. If I'm paying the bills, than they shouldn't have any business.

First we spread the wealth, then the health, and now the energy. Libs don't have a problem with this. Government intrusion at its finest.

[EnchantedFrog]

Rest assured that if Obama's vision is fulfilled, you will eventually receive this letter:

Dear Homeowner,

Our database has determined that your energy usage has exceeded federal standards based on the square footage of your home. Your homes square footage is 1,500 sq. ft. and your energy consumption is 1.2 KW / sq. ft.

If your energy usage is not reduced to the federally mandated .4 KW per Sq. Ft. requirement by the next billing cycle, you will be assessed the $1,500 penalty and your cost per KW will be doubled. If the condition is not corrected within 90 days, your government power will be disconnected.

Regards,
Jackleg Rippuoff
Government Power Rationing Czar

[simssk]

From what I have been hearing the Fed Regulations will be based on CA regulations and we all know how fantastic that has been for the car industry...right.
Just what we need - model the nation after a state that is in total disarray and bankruptcy. Now that's change we can believe in.

[CanadianJudo]

How is it OK for the government to tell you how energy efficient your home has to be? All new homes will have to be complaint by 2012.

The section from the energy bill that addresses this is called the RETROFIT FOR ENERGY AND ENVIORNMENTAL PERFORMANCE (REEP).


Here is a heated debate (from 7/2/09 Neil Cavuto's hour) about this massive government intrusion.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=6487582&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ (http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=6487582&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/)

(called "Home Invasion?" on the foxnews.com site)

For good measure check out this link. Big Brother is coming. I became more and more angry as I read some of the provisions. Who in the heck is the "Administrator"?



http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2009/07/cap-and-trade-retrofit-for-energy-and.html (http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2009/07/cap-and-trade-retrofit-for-energy-and.html)


:mad:


pretty sure there just reforming building codes
for building new homes.

everyone with house over 60 years old is allready breaking lots of building codes.
unless your planning on building a new house i doubt this will effect you.

[fava]

The bad news-all new homes must comply.
The good news-no one in their right mind will build a new home.

[mechanicon]

The bad news-all new homes must comply.
The good news-no one in their right mind will build a new home.



...Has anyone made the joke/observation...Obama's government wants to REEP, more of what WE sow?...

Sorry, bad joke on a serious topic...Couldn't help myself.:rolleyes:

[rhet 2]

They are going to tell you the level of energy efficiency you MUST have in your home. Builders are going to be hit the hardest. Solar panels on new homes are not cheap. It will be reflected in the final price of the homes that new contractors are putting out. Can you imagine how they are going to promote the solar panels? With the pitch that they will pay for themselves in 120 years? My guess, to keep the prices competitive they will skimp on other items.

You should read the links and you will see to what degree they are wishing to mandate restrictions. It should make your blood boil. My main concern is having to meet the 30% threshold if I want to sell my home in the future as well. Well, I guess that's not true, I'm equally concerned that the government thinks they can tell me what kind of a washing machine to get, or what kind of pool/hot tub I can install. If I'm paying the bills, than they shouldn't have any business.

First we spread the wealth, then the health, and now the energy. Libs don't have a problem with this. Government intrusion at its finest.

And guess who's Builder/Invester husband just happens to be mega-invested in green tecHie company stocks? Yeah, MR Pelosi, who's already made a killing from mortgage/contractor ripoffs under the disgusting scam game called the CRA.

The entire Green Freak panic the public is driven by sheer corporate greed -- managed by corporate puppets in the dear old Get Rich Quick Congress of eternal and vicious piggery.

Haven't seen a scumbag piece of human vermin in the DNC -- like Al Franken, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Al Gore, or Master Blaster Obama Swine reducing their own energy use, now have you?

How many KWH does Teddy the Bottle Man waste in his own mansion, I wonder?

Not to mention the energy demand for cooling the air back down in the Senate chamber while the Swine Lords spew their hate-kill carbonize garbage for the hate-kill *******s in the media to suck into their brain-dead bods.

How much environmental damage does a single Rich Bitch trip by Pelosi do, you reckon?

Save the environment: STAY IN WASHINGTON and close your fat liar sucker mouths for a change, stupids. Five minutes of silence from the Dimmie Swine would stave off at least 2 days of carbon buildup in the atmosphere.

[Proud Mom and Teacher]

...Has anyone made the joke/observation...Obama's government wants to REEP, more of what WE sow?...

Sorry, bad joke on a serious topic...Couldn't help myself.:rolleyes:

I like that! :D

What came to my mind is "Help me! I'm being REEPed."

[mechanicon]

I like that! :D

What came to my mind is "Help me! I'm being REEPed."



And then there's the Blue Oyster Cult classic........DON'T FEAR THE REEPer!!!:)):))

[shrek]

oh i know that its going to be when you sell your home, which I hate, and call me paranoid but I dont doubt that the issue on day will be tossed around to checking homes just like reading a meter, or tax assessments, where they will be inspecting your home every so often.
Oh dont get me started on emissionis, I passed with flying colors, but because my check engine light was on they would not pass me, and the issue was in the electronics, which I dont mess with. Having electrical work is extremely expensive, and so expensive I would pay the state of maryland $15 per month just not to have my car tested! It was insane, luckily one day someone ran a redlight and killed that car for me! LOL

You may be right, eventually it may be a normal thing to have authorities in your home to not only check to see if your home is "green" but to see if your not eating wrong and the like.

In the state of AZ we do not have the option to pay $15 a month not to get it licensed. Your only choice here is to pay the repair bill, and like I said it is a total scam.

Per state law Repair shops charge extra for an Environmentally licensed technician to work on your car. But as I was told often times the guy looking at your car is the same guy that works on everyone elses cars and they charge you $30-40 more an hour for that guy and do not pay him any more.

Where is that money going? Oh yes thats right to the state of AZ for the additional licenses for that Repair shop to be able to handle such repairs. :rolleyes:

[Iggy]

Just got out my crystal ball and I see an increase of arson and insurance fraud in the future.

I wonder how much greenhouse gas will be produced by older homes being "accidentally" burned to the ground as a result of these standards.

[shrek]

Just got out my crystal ball and I see an increase of arson and insurance fraud in the future.

I wonder how much greenhouse gas will be produced by older homes being "accidentally" burned to the ground as a result of these standards.

Well considering that envirowackos said that the smoke from burning down the Rain forrests helped create Global warming originally. I am betting that these homes buring will spell our doom.

But then the Envirowackos said that a hundred thousand acres a day of rain forrest were burning back in the 1980's-1990's of which if that were true then the rain forrests would have completely disappeared by now.

But how dare we dare question enviros!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Iggy]

Well considering that envirowackos said that the smoke from burning down the Rain forrests helped create Global warming originally. I am betting that these homes buring will spell our doom.

But then the Envirowackos said that a hundred thousand acres a day of rain forrest were burning back in the 1980's-1990's of which if that were true then the rain forrests would have completely disappeared by now.

But how dare we dare question enviros!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed. They were dead on with all the terror over acid rain, the new ice age, the destruction of the rain forests, the oceans being dead by the year 2000... Why shouldn't we believe them when they tell us that man is causing a world-wide phenomenon that was occurring naturally for the 4,500,000,000 years before we ever showed up?

[Dr BloodMoney]

Another Classic Red Herring. The REEP program is a program that people and business can CHOOSE to participate in. In this program they can get up to 50% of the cost of retrofitting a home or business back from the State Program that recieves these Federal Funds. The Standards that the bill mentions are the standards that a structure would have to meet if it wants to get the Federal\State Money. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO APPLY for the FEDERAL money the REEP STANDARDS MEAN NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!

[agent_86]

Liberals where are you? I guess they are all babbling on about Palin still.

This is called socialistic creep... except it's like a tidal wave or a flash flood.

[EnchantedFrog]

I'm going to make a fortune off this.

I plan on printing up a bunch of "16 SEER" stickers to sell to homeowners.

They put a new sticker on their central air unit and, voila, they are in compliance. :angel:

[Dr BloodMoney]

Liberals where are you? I guess they are all babbling on about Palin still.

This is called socialistic creep... except it's like a tidal wave or a flash flood.

See my post above. This has nothing to do with anyone but those applying for Federal money..... Nothing what so ever.....

[Dr BloodMoney]

I'm going to make a fortune off this.

I plan on printing up a bunch of "16 SEER" stickers to sell to homeowners.

They put a new sticker on their central air unit and, voila, they are in compliance. :angel:

It's called Fraud Waste and Abuse. It's illegal and dishonest.....

[mechanicon]

Indeed. They were dead on with all the terror over acid rain, the new ice age, the destruction of the rain forests, the oceans being dead by the year 2000... Why shouldn't we believe them when they tell us that man is causing a world-wide phenomenon that was occurring naturally for the 4,500,000,000 years before we ever showed up?


Be careful, questioning the "FACT" of man-made global warming, is getting as touchey as questioning someone's RELIGION...

Simply bringing up science, counter to theirs, sparks more venomous backlash than telling them, something like, "Your religion is ALL WRONG, or is FOOLISH, or even, their is no God at all...

Do not dare question "The CHURCH OF CLIMATOLOGY"...:rolleyes:

[mechanicon]

It's called Fraud Waste and Abuse. It's illegal and dishonest.....

I thought that's what Cap and Trade origially going to be called???:D

[Rurudyne]

No enumerated power?

No problem!

With Obama Brand Constitution Away! you can quickly and easily sort out all those nasty limitations that hold you back from absolute power over every aspect of the lives of the people.

Now in minty fresh "Spearment" flavor!

[EnchantedFrog]

It's called Fraud Waste and Abuse. It's illegal and dishonest.....
If you're talking about replacement stickers, I disagree. Its called fighting back.

If you're talking about the government, I agree.

[CaptC]

Another Classic Red Herring. The REEP program is a program that people and business can CHOOSE to participate in.The Government has already made the choice for you.
In this program they can get up to 50% of the cost of retrofitting a home or business back from the State Program that recieves these Federal Funds.Federal Funds=Taxes. The Standards that the bill mentions are the standards that a structure would have to meet if it wants to get the Federal\State Money. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO APPLY for the FEDERAL money the REEP STANDARDS MEAN NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!And you REALLY think you're going to have a choice? :rolleyes:

[Buffalo]

Again Not quite. Care to list the New Federal Rules and the NYState rules???? the proposed Federal rules are very comprehensive and very expensive.

I want to see how they are exactly the same as NY state.

And since your saying your the expert on this surely your the right person to make such a comparison right?
Never said they are the same and in fact said I was troubled by the increased Federal role in what should be a state issue in my eyes. I haven't read the 1600 page proposal. I do know that when we do a project, before a contractor is even involved, we have to do a Rescheck or Comcheck to get permits. Those are energy compliance forms. The inspector requires them to ensure you meet code. That's my point, that this already happens. Either way, I don't feel one state's standards should be blanket applied to the nation.

[Apatriot]

How is it OK for the government to tell you how energy efficient your home has to be? All new homes will have to be complaint by 2012.

The section from the energy bill that addresses this is called the RETROFIT FOR ENERGY AND ENVIORNMENTAL PERFORMANCE (REEP).


Here is a heated debate (from 7/2/09 Neil Cavuto's hour) about this massive government intrusion.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=6487582&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ (http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=6487582&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/)

(called "Home Invasion?" on the foxnews.com site)

For good measure check out this link. Big Brother is coming. I became more and more angry as I read some of the provisions. Who in the heck is the "Administrator"?



http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2009/07/cap-and-trade-retrofit-for-energy-and.html (http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2009/07/cap-and-trade-retrofit-for-energy-and.html)


:mad:

Just another version of a building code. I have no problem with that for NEW homes. Heck, I wish that the people that built my house had had more efficiency requirements. I bet it would save me some money.

Building codes, IMHO, are necessary evils. My house stands today because it was built by a fairly strict building code that was authored in the wake of Hurricane Andrew. Had it been built under the previous code, it probably would have been destroyed. Ironically, the day that Hurricane Ivan hit (my house was in the worst part of that storm, just west of the eye), there were groups meeting to weaken the FL building code. Thankfully, they didn't do that, and ended up doing the opposite (strengthening the building code).

[EnchantedFrog]

Never said they are the same and in fact said I was troubled by the increased Federal role in what should be a state issue in my eyes. I haven't read the 1600 page proposal. I do know that when we do a project, before a contractor is even involved, we have to do a Rescheck or Comcheck to get permits. Those are energy compliance forms. The inspector requires them to ensure you meet code. That's my point, that this already happens. Either way, I don't feel one state's standards should be blanket applied to the nation.
Exactly. The federal government is completely out of control, and this is another example of them meddling in things that should be left to state and local government.

[Apatriot]

The bad news-all new homes must comply.
The good news-no one in their right mind will build a new home.

What's wrong with efficiency? I wish that the builders of my home had insulated it better. I could use lower electric bills. Also, honestly, after cap and trade comes out, we will all be needing to reduce our usage of electricity, we won't be able to afford it. A little insulation and a new heat pump are going to pay for themselves fast under cap and trade electricity prices.

[Buffalo]

Exactly. The federal government is completely out of control, and this is another example of them meddling in things that should be left to state and local government.
Agree completely.

[Buffalo]

What's wrong with efficiency? I wish that the builders of my home had insulated it better. I could use lower electric bills. Also, honestly, after cap and trade comes out, we will all be needing to reduce our usage of electricity, we won't be able to afford it. A little insulation and a new heat pump are going to pay for themselves fast under cap and trade electricity prices.
So many "green" ways to build, which basically means energy efficient, yet it gets rapped hard because of **** like cap and trade, etc. Hell, most new builds blow away homes built fifteen years ago when it comes to efficiency. That means lower energy bills. Who doesn't want that.

[Dr BloodMoney]

Exactly. The federal government is completely out of control, and this is another example of them meddling in things that should be left to state and local government.

It's not meddling at all. This is a Federal\State program that people and business can request funding from. If you don't ask for the money, the program does not concern you. What's so hard about that?

[agent_86]

What's wrong with efficiency? I wish that the builders of my home had insulated it better. I could use lower electric bills. Also, honestly, after cap and trade comes out, we will all be needing to reduce our usage of electricity, we won't be able to afford it. A little insulation and a new heat pump are going to pay for themselves fast under cap and trade electricity prices.

Thank god...er Obama for forcing you to benefit yourself.

:wall::wall::wall:

Psychotropic drugs are at an all time hight in this country, apparently.

[Rurudyne]

Barry-O

Barry-O Oh Oh ooooh
Dem majority come and me wan' sell home
Barry-O Barry-O Oh Oh ooooh
Dem majority come and me wan' sell home

Work all day for a piece of land
Mow and trim so it look grand

Come mister Federal Man, examine me cabana
Dem majority come and me wan' sell home
Come mister Federal Man, lay tax on me cabana
Dem majority come and me wan' sell home

An' its six thou, twelve thou, twenty thou much
Dem majority come and me wan' sell home
Six thou, twelve thou, twenty thou much
Dem majority come and me wan' sell home

Barry-O me say leave me alone
Dem majority come and me wan' sell home
Barry-O me say leave me alone
Dem majority come and me wan' sell home

Barry, me say Barry, me say Barry, me say Barry, me say Barry, say Ba-a-a-rry
Dem majority wont ya'please leave me alone!

[Apatriot]

If you're talking about replacement stickers, I disagree. Its called fighting back.

If you're talking about the government, I agree.

If I were to buy a house with your fictitious SEER sticker, I'd sue you for all you were worth. That would be just like trying to sell a 4-cylinder claiming it had a V-8. People with brains realize that energy efficiency isn't a bad thing, regardless of global warming. Energy costs money. The more energy you save, the less money you spend on it. That's a good thing. The bad thing is forcing it by way of dictatorial edicts (i.e. like the REEP law). Energy efficiency should be selling itself. Personally, I'm brainstorming to try to figure out inexpensive ways to save money on my power bill, not going into stupid ideas like faking energy efficiency.

[Dr BloodMoney]

Thank god...er Obama for forcing you to benefit yourself.

:wall::wall::wall:

Psychotropic drugs are at an all time hight in this country, apparently.

Once again, this program is for people and business that want Federal money. If you don't want the money, it doesn't affect you.

[Rurudyne]

What's wrong with efficiency? I wish that the builders of my home had insulated it better. I could use lower electric bills. Also, honestly, after cap and trade comes out, we will all be needing to reduce our usage of electricity, we won't be able to afford it. A little insulation and a new heat pump are going to pay for themselves fast under cap and trade electricity prices.
What's wrong with constitutional government? ;)

[Apatriot]

Never said they are the same and in fact said I was troubled by the increased Federal role in what should be a state issue in my eyes. I haven't read the 1600 page proposal. I do know that when we do a project, before a contractor is even involved, we have to do a Rescheck or Comcheck to get permits. Those are energy compliance forms. The inspector requires them to ensure you meet code. That's my point, that this already happens. Either way, I don't feel one state's standards should be blanket applied to the nation.

True. That's the main problem here, is that it's an overreaching of federal government roles/responsibilities. Heck, my state has different standards within the state, due to the great difference in climate between Pensacola and Miami.

[Buffalo]

Once again, this program is for people and business that want Federal money. If you don't want the money, it doesn't affect you.
Hey Doc, do you have any info concerning this? Like to read it. Thanks.

[Rurudyne]

Once again, this program is for people and business that want Federal money. If you don't want the money, it doesn't affect you.
What lawful power has the federal to offer this money in the first place (as you claim)?

Care to point to the delegated power in the Constitution?

[EnchantedFrog]

It's not meddling at all. This is a Federal\State program that people and business can request funding from. If you don't ask for the money, the program does not concern you. What's so hard about that?
Why should MY tax dollars help fund upgrades for YOUR home or business?

Can you point to a section in the Constitution that gives Congress the authority to do that?

The "General Welfare" provision has morphed into "Anything Goes."

[Buffalo]

True. That's the main problem here, is that it's an overreaching of federal government roles/responsibilities. Heck, my state has different standards within the state, due to the great difference in climate between Pensacola and Miami.
Hey, you're in Florida eh? We partner with an Engineering firm in Stuart for Florida and out of state work. The code down there is very different than here. You're right about County to county differences.

[Apatriot]

Thank god...er Obama for forcing you to benefit yourself.

:wall::wall::wall:

Psychotropic drugs are at an all time hight in this country, apparently.

Two different issues, yet people are criticizing both of them.

I agree with you on the feds overstepping their bounds. I disagree that efficiency is bad. People in this thread are criticizing both for some wierd reason.

Building codes should be a state issue. I'm happy that the FL building code is requiring more and more energy efficiency. I'm angry that the old code let them get away with putting an overly small central air unit (2.5 tons, when all I can find recommends at least 4 tons for a house with my square footage) in my fairly new house (finished in 2002) with a low SEER (10).

[Rurudyne]

Why should MY tax dollars help fund upgrades for YOUR home or business?

Can you point to a section in the Constitution that gives Congress the authority to do that?

The "General Welfare" provision has morphed into "Anything Goes."
Yes, it's Congress Gone Wild!

Be amazed at the sight of grown men and women acting like five year olds who don't know that all the toys on the playground don't belong to them.

[Apatriot]

What's wrong with constitutional government? ;)

I'd like to amend my former statements.

Energy efficiency is a great thing. We should strive for it for common sense reasons. (also, after cap and trade, we won't be able to afford electricity without doing it)

The federal government shouldn't be mandating it. Leave that up to the states (as it currently is).

[Apatriot]

Hey Doc, do you have any info concerning this? Like to read it. Thanks.


here's a link to the actual bill:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1778

[Iggy]

Another Classic Red Herring. The REEP program is a program that people and business can CHOOSE to participate in. In this program they can get up to 50% of the cost of retrofitting a home or business back from the State Program that recieves these Federal Funds. The Standards that the bill mentions are the standards that a structure would have to meet if it wants to get the Federal\State Money. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO APPLY for the FEDERAL money the REEP STANDARDS MEAN NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!

You are assuming that we (YOU) are states. It is only (supposedly) voluntary for states to comply. Once the standards have been adopted by the state and local government we (the people) don't have a say in the matter. But wait, buried in the mounds of print it says what will happen if states do not adopt the standards...

States will be forced to comply or the Fed will do it for them:
States shall maintain responsibility for
meeting the standards and requirements of the
REEP program. In any State that elects not to ad
minister the REEP program, a unit of local govern
ment may propose to do so within its jurisdiction,
and if the Administrator finds that such local government
is capable of administering the program,
the Administrator may provide allowances to that
local government, prorated according to the population
of the local jurisdiction relative to the population of the
State, for purposes of the REEP program.

Read it: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2454eh.txt.pdf

[Dr BloodMoney]

Hey Doc, do you have any info concerning this? Like to read it. Thanks.

Search on REEP.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2454eh.txt.pdf

19 (c) PURPOSE.—The purpose of the REEP program
20 is to facilitate the retrofitting of existing buildings across
21 the United States to achieve maximum cost-effective en
22 ergy efficiency improvements and significant improve
23 ments in water use and other environmental attributes

15 (3) ASSISTANCE.—The Administrator and the
16 Secretary of Energy shall provide consultation and
17 assistance to State and local agencies for the estab
18 lishment of revolving loan funds, loan guarantees, or
19 other forms of financial assistance under this sec
20 tion.

6 (A) RESIDENTIAL BUILDING PROGRAM.—
7 (i) AWARDS.—For residential build
8 ings—
9 (I) support for a free or low-cost
10 detailed building energy audit that
11 prescribes measures sufficient to
12 achieve at least a 20 percent reduc
13 tion in energy use, by providing an in
14 centive equal to the documented cost
15 of such audit, but not more than
16 $200, in addition to any earned by
17 achieving a 20 percent or greater effi
18 ciency improvement;
19 (II) a total of $1,000 for a com
20 bination of measures, prescribed in an
21 audit conducted under subclause (I),
22 designed to reduce energy consump
23 tion by more than 10 percent, and
24 $2,000 for a combination of measures
25 prescribed in such an audit, designed

364

1 to reduce energy consumption by more
2 than 20 percent;
3 (III) $3,000 for demonstrated
4 savings of 20 percent, pursuant to a
5 performance-based building retrofit
6 program; and
7 (IV) $1,000 for each additional 5
8 percentage points of energy savings
9 achieved beyond savings for which
10 funding is provided under subclause
11 (II) or (III).
12 Funding shall not be provided under
13 clauses (II) and (III) for the same energy
14 savings.
15 (ii) MAXIMUM PERCENTAGE.—Awards
16 under clause (i) shall not exceed 50 per
17cent of retrofit costs for each building. For
18 buildings with multiple residential units,
19 awards under clause (i) shall not be great
20 er than 50 percent of the total cost of ret
21 rofitting the building, prorated among indi
22 vidual residential units on the basis of rel
23 ative costs of the retrofit. In the case of
24 public housing and assisted housing, the
25 50 percent contribution matching the con

365

1 tribution from REEP program funds may
2 come from any other source, including
3 other Federal funds.

[agent_86]

Once again, this program is for people and business that want Federal money. If you don't want the money, it doesn't affect you.

Yes, the liberals are well adept at constraining themselves and following closely the constitution.

[Dr BloodMoney]

You are assuming that we (YOU) are states. It is only (supposedly) voluntary for states to comply. Once the standards have been adopted by the state and local government we (the people) don't have a say in the matter. But wait, buried in the mounds of print it says what will happen if states do not adopt the standards...

States will be forced to comply or the Fed will do it for them:


Read it: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2454eh.txt.pdf

If the State wishes to participate in the Federal Funds program then they must use the Fed Standards. Even that will not matter because it only effects peoples property if they request the Federal funds. If you don't want the feds money then it doesn't apply.

[agent_86]

Two different issues, yet people are criticizing both of them.

I agree with you on the feds overstepping their bounds. I disagree that efficiency is bad. People in this thread are criticizing both for some wierd reason.

Building codes should be a state issue. I'm happy that the FL building code is requiring more and more energy efficiency. I'm angry that the old code let them get away with putting an overly small central air unit (2.5 tons, when all I can find recommends at least 4 tons for a house with my square footage) in my fairly new house (finished in 2002) with a low SEER (10).

The constitution does not put the FED in the "efficiency" business.

If you let FEDzilla dictate efficiency, you let them control your life. "Efficiency" is vague enough that everything can be regulated by it.

We truly are idiots here in this once great land.

[Buffalo]

here's a link to the actual bill:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-1778
Perusing the bill, here's the major issue. The State must comply with the Fed standards to get the Fed money. It's a backdoor measure. Want the money, adopt our standards. Don't adopt our standards, don't get the money. Tricky bastards.

[rjhambone]

And while they're poking all around your home, including looking into closets etc, I wonder if they'll be taking note of any firearms & gun safes homeowners may have?

.

This is an honest concern.

[Buffalo]

This is an honest concern.
All the building inspectors I know would just love to inventory your weapons. :rolleyes:

[agent_86]

All the building inspectors I know would just love to inventory your weapons. :rolleyes:

They would do it if it meant bonuses or avoided fines.

Oopsie, I kinda blew your objection out of the water. Sorry.

[Iggy]

If the State wishes to participate in the Federal Funds program then they must use the Fed Standards. Even that will not matter because it only effects peoples property if they request the Federal funds. If you don't want the feds money then it doesn't apply.

Assuming you are right (I read the thing and saw nothing like what you're saying), what do you suppose the government will do when most people decide that a thousand dollars in government handout doesn't amount to enough of an incentive to retrofit? Also there is the "Eligible Households" clause that prohibits people making more than 200% of what the government deem poverty level to receive funds. There is no incentive for them to retrofit either.

Basically, if this is voluntary, it is bound to fail in its current form because there is no viable incentive to retrofit. If its not mandatory now, it will be in order to meet the ridiculous standards the government is shooting for.

[rjhambone]

So many "green" ways to build, which basically means energy efficient, yet it gets rapped hard because of **** like cap and trade, etc. Hell, most new builds blow away homes built fifteen years ago when it comes to efficiency. That means lower energy bills. Who doesn't want that.

But this is none of the Federal Government's business.

[Buffalo]

They would do it if it meant bonuses or avoided fines.

Oopsie, I kinda blew your objection out of the water. Sorry.
You blew nothing out of the water. We are having a good discussion on the federal role in housing energy efficiency, and some tinfoil hat crackpot post gets mixed in. Oh no, the government can come in my house if I sell it! If it weren't so funny, the paranoia would be sad.

[Buffalo]

Assuming you are right (I read the thing and saw nothing like what you're saying), what do you suppose the government will do when most people decide that a thousand dollars in government handout doesn't amount to enough of an incentive to retrofit? Also there is the "Eligible Households" clause that prohibits people making more than 200% of what the government deem poverty level to receive funds. There is no incentive for them to retrofit either.

Basically, if this is voluntary, it is bound to fail in its current form because there is no viable incentive to retrofit. If its not mandatory now, it will be in order to meet the ridiculous standards the government is shooting for.
It's the creep factor that we all know.

[Buffalo]

But this is none of the Federal Government's business.
Agreed.

[shrek]

Never said they are the same and in fact said I was troubled by the increased Federal role in what should be a state issue in my eyes. I haven't read the 1600 page proposal. I do know that when we do a project, before a contractor is even involved, we have to do a Rescheck or Comcheck to get permits. Those are energy compliance forms. The inspector requires them to ensure you meet code. That's my point, that this already happens. Either way, I don't feel one state's standards should be blanket applied to the nation.


Buffalo,

I stand corrected. I thought you were agreeing with an increased Federal role stating well the state already does it.

Note that now a home does not need to be inspected to be sold as long as both the buyer and seller agree not to inspect it.

Now if this comes to fruition all homes must be inspected by federal mandate and since that inspector is going to have to inspect far more than before to make sure it meets federal codes, he is going to charge more.

Meaning you the homeseller will have to pay more for the inspection and MUST Do the Repairs before it can be approved for sell. And what if you can never sell it??????????

Then you the home owner is out of pocket even more and for nothing.

This is very dangerous. I agree with you. Let the states handle this. They can react quicker to market conditions than the feds ever would.

[Rurudyne]

I'd like to amend my former statements.

Energy efficiency is a great thing. We should strive for it for common sense reasons. (also, after cap and trade, we won't be able to afford electricity without doing it)

The federal government shouldn't be mandating it. Leave that up to the states (as it currently is).
As a proponent of lawful government, I'm always ok with amendments! :mrgreen:

[Dr BloodMoney]

Buffalo,

I stand corrected. I thought you were agreeing with an increased Federal role stating well the state already does it.

Note that now a home does not need to be inspected to be sold as long as both the buyer and seller agree not to inspect it.

Now if this comes to fruition all homes must be inspected by federal mandate and since that inspector is going to have to inspect far more than before to make sure it meets federal codes, he is going to charge more.

Meaning you the homeseller will have to pay more for the inspection and MUST Do the Repairs before it can be approved for sell. And what if you can never sell it??????????

Then you the home owner is out of pocket even more and for nothing.

This is very dangerous. I agree with you. Let the states handle this. They can react quicker to market conditions than the feds ever would.

This bill does nothing of the sort. A home would be inspected if the home owner gets a grant to improve the energy efficiency of the house. Before they get the money the government wants proof that you actually did something...... It has no other effect.....

[shrek]

This bill does nothing of the sort. A home would be inspected if the home owner gets a grant to improve the energy efficiency of the house. Before they get the money the government wants proof that you actually did something...... It has no other effect.....


I apologize I forgot you may be reading my comments without reading mine and buffalo's previous conversation. :rolleyes: I had already stated previously that the program does not call for this now. But most likely will in the future.

I bring up Mandatory seat belt laws which are nation wide now and federally mandated or else states loose Federal Highway funding.

In the beginning whether or not a state wanted to enact Seat belt laws was entirely voluntary and based on whethe the state voted such laws into being. Too few states were doing it. So the Feds said either you pass the laws or you loose Federal Highway dollars. but the feds said if you do enact them you can vote it into being telling the States voters that if it is approved that Seat belt tickets will only be handed out if your pulled over for other infractions.

So the states passed the laws. Then the Feds said now start holding dragnets just on Seat belts or else you loose your Federal dollars.

So the states complied.


Keep in mind I wear my seat belt every day. I do so as personal choice. But the reality is that seat belt laws are an example of Federal bullying to get their way and REEP can easily be abused in the same manner.

So you can take your Federally funded hog huey and please place it where the sun does not shine.

[Dr BloodMoney]

I apologize I forgot you may be reading my comments without reading mine and buffalo's previous conversation. :rolleyes: I had already stated previously that the program does not call for this now. But most likely will in the future.

I bring up Mandatory seat belt laws which are nation wide now and federally mandated or else states loose Federal Highway funding.

In the beginning whether or not a state wanted to enact Seat belt laws was entirely voluntary and based on whethe the state voted such laws into being. Too few states were doing it. So the Feds said either you pass the laws or you loose Federal Highway dollars. but the feds said if you do enact them you can vote it into being telling the States voters that if it is approved that Seat belt tickets will only be handed out if your pulled over for other infractions.

So the states passed the laws. Then the Feds said now start holding dragnets just on Seat belts or else you loose your Federal dollars.

So the states complied.


Keep in mind I wear my seat belt every day. I do so as personal choice. But the reality is that seat belt laws are an example of Federal bullying to get their way and REEP can easily be abused in the same manner.

So you can take your Federally funded hog huey and please place it where the sun does not shine.

This thread is not about Hypothetical things that the Goverment might or might not do. It's about the new Energy bill creating a agency that is going to intrude into our lives and very homes. The bill does nothing like this at all. I'm providing information that backs that point up. Something that is lacking in this thread.

[StoneScratcher]

What does this mean to homes that already exist? Will they be home-invaded too? Will already-built homes be torn down if they are not in compliance to the new rules? Will owners of already built homes be fined if they do not rebuild to the new mandates?

Is buying a tent a good idea, right about now? lol...

[Dr BloodMoney]

What does this mean to homes that already exist? Will they be home-invaded too? Will already-built homes be torn down if they are not in compliance to the new rules? Will owners of already built homes be fined if they do not rebuild to the new mandates?

Is buying a tent a good idea, right about now? lol...


Simple, don't ask for a Federal\State hand out to upgrade your home and it will not concern you.....

[shrek]

This thread is not about Hypothetical things that the Goverment might or might not do. It's about the new Energy bill creating a agency that is going to intrude into our lives and very homes. The bill does nothing like this at all. I'm providing information that backs that point up. Something that is lacking in this thread.

Ah but REEP Does give permission for inspectors to enter peoples homes. Yes now they are there under the excuse of well if you want grants to better improve your home then we have the right to inspect your home.

But historically that is all the government needs to take control of something.

Am I wrong? You state that information is lacking in this thread. But the reality is that information and facts support me.

The Federal government has intruded year after year after year into farmers lives and homes and farms. At first it was only farmers that accepted government funds. Now it is all Farmers.

Did you know that it is illegal now for a farmer to drink milk directly from his own cows or to butcher his own cows???????????????????

You state your the only one giving factual information here. But care to give info showing what I state is wrong?

That Seat belt laws have not become more intrusive over the years. And that Federal farm laws also did not become more intrusive?

Yes you have information on your side. But so do I. And just saying well the bill is not written that way does not mean Jack, again history shows that when it comes to dealing with the Federal government.

[shrek]

Simple, don't ask for a Federal\State hand out to upgrade your home and it will not concern you.....

Again History shows that it will not eventually matter if you do not accept the money.

History shows that the Feds use that as an excuse to get their foot in the door and then force the door wide open and demand ALL follow their rules or else.

[Rurudyne]

Simple, don't ask for a Federal\State hand out to upgrade your home and it will not concern you.....
To what shrek said I'll again add: what lawful power has the federal to offer people handouts to upgrade their homes?

[shrek]

To what shrek said I'll again add: what lawful power has the federal to offer people handouts to upgrade their homes?

Exactly, this is a very good point.

[agent_86]

You blew nothing out of the water. We are having a good discussion on the federal role in housing energy efficiency, and some tinfoil hat crackpot post gets mixed in. Oh no, the government can come in my house if I sell it! If it weren't so funny, the paranoia would be sad.

Right, because the government NEVER tries to get in individuals business and hasn't made rules that restrict liberty... in like FOREVER.

WHat the hell was I thinking?

[Rurudyne]

Exactly, this is a very good point.
I just wish people had noticed my earlier song stylings in the thread, Barry-O in particular.

[ChicoLibertarian]

How is it OK for the government to tell you how energy efficient your home has to be?

They tell you how efficient your car must be, your air conditioner, your refrigerator, and an endless list of other items. I fail to see how this is a bad thing. Building energy efficient homes is a good idea in my book. It saves the homebuyer money in the long run, and reduces the demand for energy as well.

[Rurudyne]

They tell you how efficient your car must be, your air conditioner, your refrigerator, and an endless list of other items. I fail to see how this is a bad thing. Building energy efficient homes is a good idea in my book. It saves the homebuyer money in the long run, and reduces the demand for energy as well.
"Libertarian" and that comment seem as odds ... somehow.

[ChicoLibertarian]

Will already-built homes be torn down if they are not in compliance to the new rules?

Yes, in fact they will be torn down, and I believe federal agents are en-route to your home now for this very purpose. Sorry to be the one to tell you...

[agent_86]

They tell you how efficient your car must be, your air conditioner, your refrigerator, and an endless list of other items. I fail to see how this is a bad thing. Building energy efficient homes is a good idea in my book. It saves the homebuyer money in the long run, and reduces the demand for energy as well.

Its not a good idea because the government has no authority to tell us how "efficient" our property must be. Its wrong because it is totalitarian. It is wrong because it limits freedoms and liberties, by imposing extra costs on people.

[ChicoLibertarian]

"Libertarian" and that comment seem as odds ... somehow.

Who said I was a "black and white" thinker? Shades of gray, my friend, shades of gray.

[Rurudyne]

Its not a good idea because the government has no authority to tell us how "efficient" our property must be. Its wrong because it is totalitarian. It is wrong because it limits freedoms and liberties, by imposing extra costs on people.
Will President Obama tax your multiple core gaming CPUs?!?

I mean, who really needs more than one 1 Ghz processor at a time?

[agent_86]

Who said I was a "black and white" thinker? Shades of gray, my friend, shades of gray.

Shades of marxism, is more like it.

[ChicoLibertarian]

Its not a good idea because the government has no authority to tell us how "efficient" our property must be. Its wrong because it is totalitarian. It is wrong because it limits freedoms and liberties, by imposing extra costs on people.

They tell you how efficient your new car will be, don't they? How well are you doing in your lawsuit to overturn the CAFE standards?

It's not totalitarian, I think your tinfoil hat is covering your eyes and your ears.

Ah yes, your freedom to waste energy. I forgot about that element of the Bill of Rights.

[agent_86]

Will President Obama tax your multiple core gaming CPUs?!?

Why not?

I think we should push a bill that regulates bowel movement efficiency. I mean, we all want to be efficient and all. We all want to be regular.

[ChicoLibertarian]

Shades of marxism, is more like it.

This whole "Marxism" thing is getting really tired. You really need to come up with something more clever.

[Rurudyne]

Why not?

I think we should push a bill that regulates bowel movement efficiency. I mean, we all want to be efficient and all. We all want to be regular.
Yes, if we all had NTBLS (near total bowel liquification syndrome) we'd not need nearly so much water when we flushed.

[agent_86]

They tell you how efficient your new car will be, don't they? How well are you doing in your lawsuit to overturn the CAFE standards?

It's not totalitarian, I think your tinfoil hat is covering your eyes and your ears.

Ah yes, your freedom to waste energy. I forgot about that element of the Bill of Rights.

YES freedom to do whatever the hell I choose to do. That's what America was founded on.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Liberty - the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views

[agent_86]

This whole "Marxism" thing is getting really tired. You really need to come up with something more clever.

I realize it's tiring for you socialists to face truth and light, but I'm gonna continue calling you as I see you.

[agent_86]

Yes, if we all had NTBLS (near total bowel liquification syndrome) we'd not need nearly so much water when we flushed.

We could also start outlawing certain political leanings because they interfere with the "efficiency" of the party in power to get things done and advance their agenda. And when they won't comply or conform we can find "efficient" ways of ridding the country of their "inefficient" existences.

Is there any way to "efficiently" rid millions of "inefficient" people, to increase efficiency?

Has anyone ever come up with a way to do that, I wonder?

:think:

[ChicoLibertarian]

YES freedom to do whatever the hell I choose to do.

Sorry, but that boat sailed a long, long time ago.

[agent_86]

Sorry, but that boat sailed a long, long time ago.

Thank you Nancy Pelosi.

[Creefer]

They tell you how efficient your new car will be, don't they? How well are you doing in your lawsuit to overturn the CAFE standards?

It's not totalitarian, I think your tinfoil hat is covering your eyes and your ears.

Ah yes, your freedom to waste energy. I forgot about that element of the Bill of Rights.

Your argument seems to be that they are already doing unconstitutional things, so one more doesn't matter.

You also have a gross misunderstanding of the Constitution. It limits government's rights, not people's.

[Iggy]

Sorry, but that boat sailed a long, long time ago.

I've seen liberals on here pretending to be conservative and moderate but this is the first time I've seen one pretend to be Libertarian.

[Rurudyne]

We could also start outlawing certain political leanings because they interfere with the "efficiency" of the party in power to get things done and advance their agenda. And when they won't comply or conform we can find "efficient" ways of ridding the country of their "inefficient" existences.

Is there any way to "efficiently" rid millions of "inefficient" people, to increase efficiency?

Has anyone ever come up with a way to do that, I wonder?

:think:
The President's buddy who belonged to that violent little group could answer you. Seems they (that group) actually discussed what to do with the 25 million or so Americans who couldn't be reeducated.

While I will not ascribe such malignant evil to the President as I would to Ayers, in a lesser vein he (the President) must have some reason for wanting that security force he's talked about.

[tguns]

They tell you how efficient your new car will be, don't they?

No, they tell manufacturers how efficient your new car will be….subtle but significant difference. There is zero, nada, zilch regulation preventing me from rebuilding a 70’s era 400 big block, dropping that bad boy into a chassis of my chioce and tooling around town at a whopping 8 miles per gallon.

[EnchantedFrog]

No, they tell manufacturers how efficient your new car will be….subtle but significant difference. There is zero, nada, zilch regulation preventing me from rebuilding a 70’s era 400 big block, dropping that bad boy into a chassis of my chioce and tooling around town at a whopping 8 miles per gallon.
You say there is zero, nada, zilch regulation but............
I wouldn't count on that remaining to be the case under this administration.

Considering that they are patterning their legislation after California, you might find yourself subjected to significant fees and penalties. About 10 years ago, a friend of mine moved to California. He took his older Mazda and wound up having to pay an "Environmental Impact Fee" that was almost as much as the car was worth.

[agent_86]

You say there is zero, nada, zilch regulation but............
I wouldn't count on that remaining to be the case under this administration.

Considering that they are patterning their legislation after California, you might find yourself subjected to significant fees and penalties. About 10 years ago, a friend of mine moved to California. He took his older Mazda and wound up having to pay an "Environmental Impact Fee" that was almost as much as the car was worth.

Essentially outlawing driving an older Mazda... thus limiting liberty.

[tguns]

You say there is zero, nada, zilch regulation but............
I wouldn't count on that remaining to be the case under this administration.



I should have used the qualifier "currently".

[ddye]

How is it OK for the government to tell you how energy efficient your home has to be? All new homes will have to be complaint by 2012.
How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot dump your OWN used motor oil into a hole in your OWN property? But they do.

How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot pollute the air above your OWN property? But they do.

If you got the energy to run your home from your own property you might have a point, but the oil we buy is intertwined with America's balance of trade, treaties, foreign policy and much more.

Face it, in 30 years our energy use and the ways we deal with energy will be completely different than they are now. People just have to find a way to deal with it, because no one can change it.

One way to deal with it would be to tax the crap out of oil, so people who waste energy would pay through the nose...

Doug

[Mojotiger]

I've seen liberals on here pretending to be conservative and moderate but this is the first time I've seen one pretend to be Libertarian.

Lol...

[tguns]

How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot dump your OWN used motor oil into a hole in your OWN property? But they do.



Because it doesn't stay there, and eventually reaches a common water table.

How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot pollute the air above your OWN property? But they do.


Because it doesn't stay there, and eventually reaches a common atmosphere.

If you got the energy to run your home from your own property you might have a point, but the oil we buy is intertwined with America's balance of trade, treaties, foreign policy and much more.


No, that common energy becomes a privately owned commodity once I flip the bill.

Face it, in 30 years our energy use and the ways we deal with energy will be completely different than they are now. People just have to find a way to deal with it, because no one can change it.


How about we start this change by not allowing the federal government to unreasonably search our homes.......as if we had a right against such a thing.

One way to deal with it would be to tax the crap out of oil, so people who waste energy would pay through the nose...


Fine with me, allthough your pal Obama may have issues with this in that it would amount to a tax on those making less then $250,000 a year.....and we all know he promissed that wouldn't happen.

[agent_86]

How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot dump your OWN used motor oil into a hole in your OWN property? But they do.

How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot pollute the air above your OWN property? But they do.

If you got the energy to run your home from your own property you might have a point, but the oil we buy is intertwined with America's balance of trade, treaties, foreign policy and much more.

Face it, in 30 years our energy use and the ways we deal with energy will be completely different than they are now. People just have to find a way to deal with it, because no one can change it.

One way to deal with it would be to tax the crap out of oil, so people who waste energy would pay through the nose...

Doug

The problem with your argument is that individuals pay for their power for their individual property.

[harumph]

How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot dump your OWN used motor oil into a hole in your OWN property? But they do.

How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot pollute the air above your OWN property? But they do.

If you got the energy to run your home from your own property you might have a point, but the oil we buy is intertwined with America's balance of trade, treaties, foreign policy and much more.

Face it, in 30 years our energy use and the ways we deal with energy will be completely different than they are now. People just have to find a way to deal with it, because no one can change it.

One way to deal with it would be to tax the crap out of oil, so people who waste energy would pay through the nose...

Doug

Cutting off your nose to spite your face, may work once. Once.
Taxing the crap out of oil would affect everyone. Everyone.

[ChicoLibertarian]

Taxing the crap out of oil would affect everyone. Everyone.

And as was his original point, it will affect those that are egregious wasters far, far, more, thus prompting them to change their profligate ways.

[ddye]

The problem with your argument is that individuals pay for their power for their individual property.
And that power impacts everything from our foreign policy to trade agreements, our balance of trade and our military budget. If America uses less power we will all benefit from it financially and in many other ways.

Just like dumping used oil in the ground will impact those beyond your property, your use of energy also impacts other citizens and the government and country as a whole.
Cutting off your nose to spite your face, may work once. Once.
Taxing the crap out of oil would affect everyone. Everyone.
I don't necessarily FAVOR it, I just mentioned that it would discourage people from wasting power, that's all. I wasn't that serious.

Doug

[ChicoLibertarian]

No, they tell manufacturers how efficient your new car will be….subtle but significant difference. There is zero, nada, zilch regulation preventing me from rebuilding a 70’s era 400 big block, dropping that bad boy into a chassis of my chioce and tooling around town at a whopping 8 miles per gallon.

Go for it! Of course in California you'll have to get that bad boy past the smog police, but you might be able to do it.

[ChicoLibertarian]

I've seen liberals on here pretending to be conservative and moderate but this is the first time I've seen one pretend to be Libertarian.

I'm more in line with the classic liberalism of our Founding Fathers, but most modern conservatives eschew their thinking, therefore I don't adopt that label. "Pragmatic libertarian" is how I'd label myself, which makes me a man without a party.

[agent_86]

And that power impacts everything from our foreign policy to trade agreements, our balance of trade and our military budget. If America uses less power we will all benefit from it financially and in many other ways.

Just like dumping used oil in the ground will impact those beyond your property, your use of energy also impacts other citizens and the government and country as a whole.

I don't necessarily FAVOR it, I just mentioned that it would discourage people from wasting power, that's all. I wasn't that serious.

Doug

Doug,

all those things are effected by power and fuel ONLY because our politicians and environmental extremists have deemed our own resources off-limits.

Everything on this planet is from this planet and thus is organic or green or whatever you tree-huggers want to call it. Just because you fall for the hype does not mean you have the right to inflict your stupidity on the rest of the world.

Environmentalism is the new communism.

[agent_86]

I'm more in line with the classic liberalism of our Founding Fathers, but most modern conservatives eschew their thinking, therefore I don't adopt that label. "Pragmatic libertarian" is how I'd label myself, which makes me a man without a party.

"Classic liberalism" embraces individual freedom, not government dictates and control. Sorry, you fail.

[ddye]

Doug,

all those things are effected by power and fuel ONLY because our politicians and environmental extremists have deemed our own resources off-limits.
Oh bull, I am soooooooooo tired of hearing people say, "If only we could drill more here, we'd NEVER run out of oil!" It's crap, it was a talking point from last summer that people are still running with. It's provably false, unless you rely on the partisan spin that popped up around that time that was never mentioned before.

Everything on this planet is from this planet and thus is organic or green or whatever you tree-huggers want to call it. Just because you fall for the hype does not mean you have the right to inflict your stupidity on the rest of the world.

First off, I am NOT necessarily a proponent of man made global warming, so stop with the silly strawmen. If you actually deny that we will run too low on oil within a few decades to depend on foreign imports... well, I'd have thought you weren't quite that willfully partisan.

Environmentalism is the new communism.
And another dumbass cliche is born! :rolleyes:

Doug

[ChicoLibertarian]

"Classic liberalism" embraces individual freedom, not government dictates and control. Sorry, you fail.

Fail? Hardly. "Classic liberalism" was also developed when the world was sparsely populated. What was the population in England when Locke wrote his treatise on life and property? 5 million? As I said earlier, it's not possible to "do whatever the hell you want" in a nation of 300 million people. So, you do the best you can to adjust the philosophical framework to accommodate the new circumstances. This is where conservatives fail, as they do not feel they need to change at all. That is a major FAIL.

[Proud Mom and Teacher]

How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot dump your OWN used motor oil into a hole in your OWN property? But they do.

How is it OK for the government to tell you that you cannot pollute the air above your OWN property? But they do.

If you got the energy to run your home from your own property you might have a point, but the oil we buy is intertwined with America's balance of trade, treaties, foreign policy and much more.

Face it, in 30 years our energy use and the ways we deal with energy will be completely different than they are now. People just have to find a way to deal with it, because no one can change it.

One way to deal with it would be to tax the crap out of oil, so people who waste energy would pay through the nose...

Doug
This is going to be very intrusive. They are going to be following CA's lead. Living in CA, we know about "smart metering". There is tons of info on the web, but I just picked one of the first links I came to.

Smart meters, what do they do?
Smart metering generally involves the installation of an intelligent meter at residential
customers and the regular reading, processing and feed back of consumption data to the customer. A "smart" meter has the following capabilities:

² real-time or near-time registration of electricity use and possibly electricity gener-
ated locally e.g., in case of photovoltaic cells;
² offering the possibility to read the meter both locally and remotely (on demand);
² remote limitation of the throughput through the meter (in the extreme case cutting of the electricity to the customer)
² interconnection to premise-based networks and devices (e.g., distributed generation)
² ability to read other, on-premise or nearby commodity meters (e.g., gas, water).

http://www.helio-international.org/projects/SmartMetering.Paper.pdf (http://www.helio-international.org/projects/SmartMetering.Paper.pdf)

Sound good to you? The discussion in CA, when you have received your share, you get the switch. Do you think that sounds like something the government should decide?

It seems like you are saying they do have the right, as it involves all the government activities you listed above. However, by all accounts, the cap and tax is going to increase our reliance on foreign oil.

The problem is that the almighty government is telling us how/why/when we need to be energy efficient, all based on a faulty science called Global Warming, which was concocted by liberals so that they could tax the crap out of Americans. Unfortunately, some of us know that it is a hoax, and that this is nothing but a power/money grab by the government.

[agent_86]

Fail? Hardly. "Classic liberalism" was also developed when the world was sparsely populated. What was the population in England when Locke wrote his treatise on life and property? 5 million? As I said earlier, it's not possible to "do whatever the hell you want" in a nation of 300 million people. So, you do the best you can to adjust the philosophical framework to accommodate the new circumstances. This is where conservatives fail, as they do not feel they need to change at all. That is a major FAIL.

It is completely possible to do whatever you want in a nation of 3 trillion people. Numbers mean nothing, except to liberals.

Freedom and liberty made this country what it is, not government. Freedom and liberty will save the country from whatever ails it for the future.

When you say "change" what your really mean is "submit" to socialism.

[Rurudyne]

It is completely possible to do whatever you want in a nation of 3 trillion people. Numbers mean nothing, except to liberals.

Freedom and liberty made this country what it is, not government. Freedom and liberty will save the country from whatever ails it for the future.

When you say "change" what your really mean is "submit" to socialism.
Those other eight states (57 plus one to go) must have a LOT of people residing therein! ;)

Is ACORN making sure they're all registered?

[agent_86]

Oh bull, I am soooooooooo tired of hearing people say, "If only we could drill more here, we'd NEVER run out of oil!" It's crap, it was a talking point from last summer that people are still running with. It's provably false, unless you rely on the partisan spin that popped up around that time that was never mentioned before.



First off, I am NOT necessarily a proponent of man made global warming, so stop with the silly strawmen. If you actually deny that we will run too low on oil within a few decades to depend on foreign imports... well, I'd have thought you weren't quite that willfully partisan.


And another dumbass cliche is born! :rolleyes:

Doug

I know personally someone that has working oil wells on their land, here in florida, that were capped by government regulations and remain that way still.

I have talked to "oil people" and without going into the boring details, there is plenty of oil here. But let's put oil aside, we have more coal than any nation and we sit on it. Why? environmental regulations, despite new environmentally friendly extraction and burning technologies.

Environmentalists don't even want to allow transmission lines from "earth friendly" wind and solar farms.

We could go on forever with these kinds of examples. But hey, lets just ignore that and tax ourselves into 3rd world status.

We have resources that can sustain us for centuries right here.

[ddye]

I know personally someone that has working oil wells on their land, here in florida, that were capped by government regulations and remain that way still.
Don't know the guy you're referring to, but anecdotal evidence is ALWAYS true.

I have talked to "oil people" and without going into the boring details, there is plenty of oil here. But let's put oil aside, we have more coal than any nation and we sit on it. Why? environmental regulations, despite new environmentally friendly extraction and burning technologies.
I'm not an environmental scientist, so I have no idea, even if it doesn't stop you from having ideas. T. Boone Pickens was on TV today talking about natural gas, and how much there is in the US, enough to supply us for 100 years. He said that the energy bill did a good job as far as that, and other things, went. He wasn't so sure about the implications of cap and trade, but then again, neither is anyone else, although that doesn't stop people here from pontificating about it.

Environmentalists don't even want to allow transmission lines from "earth friendly" wind and solar farms.
So what? They will lose that fight. I love it when people bring out the same whipping boys over and over again.

Doug

[agent_86]

Those other eight states (57 plus one to go) must have a LOT of people residing therein! ;)

Is ACORN making sure they're all registered?

They're big states.

[Rurudyne]

So what? They will lose that fight. I love it when people bring out the same whipping boys over and over again.
Then offer new whipping boys. :mrgreen:

[ddye]

Then offer new whipping boys. :mrgreen:
Sounds like a nightclub act in Amsterdam, huh?

Doug

[agent_86]

Don't know the guy you're referring to, but anecdotal evidence is ALWAYS true.

And because the anecdotal evidence isn't yours, its always false. Fun game.


I'm not an environmental scientist, so I have no idea, even if it doesn't stop you from having ideas. T. Boone Pickens was on TV today talking about natural gas, and how much there is in the US, enough to supply us for 100 years. He said that the energy bill did a good job as far as that, and other things, went. He wasn't so sure about the implications of cap and trade, but then again, neither is anyone else, although that doesn't stop people here from pontificating about it.

T has big money invested in Natural Gas, so his opinion is tainted. Nice try.


So what? They will lose that fight. I love it when people bring out the same whipping boys over and over again.

Doug

If i recall, they already won the fight. Mention the words "endangered species" and politicians run like roaches in a suddenly lighted room.

What about coal? You conveniently failed to defend our modern alergy to coal. And by "our" I mean activist politicians.

[Rurudyne]

Sounds like a nightclub act in Amsterdam, huh?

Doug
***reminds me of the comedy bit about a German talk show and its avant guard host (played, I believe, by Mike Meyers)***

[ddye]

***reminds me of the comedy bit about a German talk show and its avant guard host (played, I believe, by Mike Meyers)***
"And now iz zee time ven ve DANCE!!!!"

Doug

[ddye]

And because the anecdotal evidence isn't yours, its always false. Fun game.
If I offered anecdotal evidence here you might have a point.

T has big money invested in Natural Gas, so his opinion is tainted. Nice try.
And Big Oil and the political right has a huge stake in oil. Your point?

If i recall, they already won the fight. Mention the words "endangered species" and politicians run like roaches in a suddenly lighted room.
Then your recall is wrong. Nice use of cliches and strawmen though.

What about coal? You conveniently failed to defend our modern alergy to coal. And by "our" I mean activist politicians.
I cannot defend what I am lacking in knowledge about, unlike some here. All I know about coal is the propaganda I hear from both sides. But you certainly seem to believe it. At least you're willing to use it as if it were true.

Doug

[redbone]

How is it OK for the government to tell you how energy efficient your home has to be? All new homes will have to be complaint by 2012.

The section from the energy bill that addresses this is called the RETROFIT FOR ENERGY AND ENVIORNMENTAL PERFORMANCE (REEP).


Here is a heated debate (from 7/2/09 Neil Cavuto's hour) about this massive government intrusion.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=6487582&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/ (http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=6487582&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/)

(called "Home Invasion?" on the foxnews.com site)

For good measure check out this link. Big Brother is coming. I became more and more angry as I read some of the provisions. Who in the heck is the "Administrator"?



http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2009/07/cap-and-trade-retrofit-for-energy-and.html (http://freedomeden.blogspot.com/2009/07/cap-and-trade-retrofit-for-energy-and.html)


:mad:

I am sure ACORN will be heading this task to determine what in your home.

[ddye]

I am sure ACORN will be heading this task to determine what in your home.
"I know nothing at all about this, but I know the name ACORN, I'm sure it'll make me look smart and informed."

Doug

[RWReaganfan]

Just another version of a building code. I have no problem with that for NEW homes.

So why should the FEDERAL government be involved in building codes?

Why should a home in Florida have to be able to withstand a California earthquake and the home in California a hurricane? That is the kind of government BS that you will be stuck with!

[McCoyFan]

Then offer new whipping boys. :mrgreen:


..the second ammendent give you the rights to carry whippings


...many states offer their citizens concealed whippings permits

[agent_86]

So why should the FEDERAL government be involved in building codes?

Why should a home in Florida have to be able to withstand a California earthquake and the home in California a hurricane? That is the kind of government BS that you will be stuck with!

Because a centralized all-powerful government is bound to be liberal and liberals want to submit to the collective.

[mot1man]

"I know nothing at all about this, but I know the name ACORN, I'm sure it'll make me look smart and informed."

Doug

Nooo! It'll take more than that.

See how fun this is?:rolleyes:

[RWReaganfan]

They tell you how efficient your new car will be, don't they? How well are you doing in your lawsuit to overturn the CAFE standards?

It's not totalitarian, I think your tinfoil hat is covering your eyes and your ears.

Ah yes, your freedom to waste energy. I forgot about that element of the Bill of Rights.

Please explain how CAFE standards prevent me from buying my SUV.

Also, if I have the money to waste energy and choose to do so, why is that any of the government's concern?

It is called FREEDOM! Learn what it means or change your user name. At present it is false advertising.

[McCoyFan]

Please explain how CAFE standards prevent me from buying my SUV.

if a cafe has a drive through that is not wide enough for your suv to drive through

then you will be blocking other cars from driving though
because you can not drive through
because your suv is too wide to drive through

[Rurudyne]

if a cafe has a drive through that is not wide enough for your suv to drive through

then you will be blocking other cars from driving though
because you can not drive through
because your suv is too wide to drive through
bada boom kish! :))