God and Murder

[Porkulus Hummer]

Was reading a site, and these are some of the murders committed by God in the Bible:


Every human and animal on earth that wasn't on Noah's Ark. Crime - being evil. Method of execution - drowning.
The cities of Sodom and Gommorah. Crime – being evil (or possibly homosexual). Method of execution – burnt to death by burning sulfur from heaven. Cruel and unusual.
Lot’s wife. Crime - looking back at the firework display above. Method of execution – turned into pillar of salt. Gen.19:26
The firstborn of Egypt. Crime - being firstborn when God decided to show his strength. God hardened Pharoah's heart so he refused to let the Israelities go. Method of execution – The Angel of Death. Exodus 12:29
The Egyptian army. Crime - refusing to disobey orders to pursue said Israelites. Method of execution – drowned when the Red Sea returned. Exodus 14:28
Er. Crime - "wicked in the sight of the Lord". Method of execution - not specified. Gen.38:7.
Onan. Crime - Disobeying God's orders to impregnate his dead brother's wife. Method of execution - not specified. Gen.38:10. (unlucky family)
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families). Crime – challenging Moses. Method of execution– buried alive, swallowed by the earth. Num.16:27 -32.
250 men. Crime – followers of Korah. Method of execution – burnt to death by fire from heaven. Num.16:35,
14,700 people. Crime - complaining about the previous two. Method of execution – plague. Num.16:49.
24,000 people. Crime – sexual immorality with Moabite women, worshiping Baal. Method of execution – plague. Num.25:9.
Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu. Crime - offering strange fire before the Lord. Method of execution – burnt to death by holy fire. Lev.10:1-3.
Either 70 or 50,070 men depending on the translation. Crime – looking into the ark. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Sam.6:19.
Nabal. Crime – being ungrateful to David. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Sam.25:38.
Uzzah. Crime – touching the ark to stop it falling. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Sam.6:6-7.
David and Bathsheba's baby boy. Crime – none, it was to punish David. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Sam.12:14-18
70,000 people. Crime – David held a census. Method of execution – plague. 2 Sam.24:13.
A prophet. Crime – believing another prophet. Method of execution – being killed by a lion. 1 Kg.13:1-24.
A man. Crime – refusing to strike a prophet when the prophet asked him to. Method of execution – being killed by a lion. 1 Kg.20:35-36.
Ahaziah. Crime - talking to the wrong God. Method of execution – did not leave his bed. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17.
102 soldiers. Crime – not talking nicely to Elisha. Method of execution - burnt to death by fire from heaven. 2 Kg.1:9-12.
42 youths. Crime – mocking Elisha's baldness. Method of execution – God sent bears to kill them. 2 Kg.2:23-24.
Some foreigners. Crime – not worshiping God. Method of execution - God sent lions to kill them. 2 Kg.17:25-26.
185,000 soldiers. Crime – being at war with Israel. Method of execution – the angel of the lord killed them while they slept. 2 Kg.19:35.
Saul. Crime – unfaithful to the lord. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Chr.10:14
Jeroboam. Crime – rebellion against Abijah. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Chr.13:20,
Jehoram. Crime – doing evil in the sight of the lord. Method of execution – God made his bowels fall out. 2 Chr.21:14-19.
Ananias and Sapphira. Crime - Deceit. (Pretending they sold their land for less than they did, so that they could pretend to give all the money to the church, when in reality they kept a nice bit of their money to themselves.) Method of execution – not specified, perhaps heart attack. Acts 5:1-10. (
Personally, I can't support a deity that's essentially a mass murderer--no better than a Stalin. He killed the firstborn children of Egypt because Pharoah wouldn't allow the Israelities to be freed--even though it was God who hardened Pharoah's heart so that he wouldn't let the Israelities leave. He drowned most of the population of Earth, more than likely which included women and children, because they were all somehow evil. He killed two entire cities, because they displeased him, along with thousands, if not millions of others.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Then don't.

[DRS]

Seems one has a problem with the Creator of the universe executing said those who do not wish to abide by the rules He makes

Oh and ignore the warnings and the chance people had to avoid such punishements

By the way the Hebrew usuage words used in connection with Pharoah shows God allowed Pharaoh to choose his course not that God made Him rebel

1 Samule 6:6*Also, why should YOU make YOUR heart unresponsive just the way Egypt and Phar′aoh made their heart unresponsive? Was it not as soon as He dealt severely with them that they proceeded to send them away, and they went their way?

Shows it was the Egyptians themselves who chose their path

Noah preached and Lot warned the people too, not God's fault people ignored them

[TaylorW65]

That is why I don't see the Bible as the word of God but only the words of those ancient communities.

To think God has done all that you wrote makes God out to be evil.

Either God is evil or those are things God has not done.

[TaylorW65]

Seems one has a problem with the Creator of the universe executing said those who do not wish to abide by the rules He makes

Oh and ignore the warnings and the chance people had to avoid such punishements

Follow my rules or I will destroy you. Can you feel the love?

[Meriweather]

Porkulus Hummer--Are you going to give us another list of all the people God gave life, love, and aid to?

[TheDabbler]

Follow my rules or I will destroy you. Can you feel the love?

Honestly, yes. God didn't create rules arbitrarily, he made them to keep us safe. If we don't follow the rules, we endanger both ourselves and others. And while hurting ourselves might not concern anyone else, I am glad that God is willing to eventually step in when people start violating the rules to such an extent that they become a threat to everyone else.

[TaylorW65]

Honestly, yes. God didn't create rules arbitrarily, he made them to keep us safe. If we don't follow the rules, we endanger both ourselves and others. And while hurting ourselves might not concern anyone else, I am glad that God is willing to eventually step in when people start violating the rules to such an extent that they become a threat to everyone else.

He is letting Bin Laden live.

[Porkulus Hummer]

Porkulus Hummer--Are you going to give us another list of all the people God gave life, love, and aid to?

Well, I could give you a list of the good things Stalin did for the Soviets, does that justify or reconcile that evil he also did?

[mgifford]

Whatever God says is sin or a breaking of His rules is against God. Since we're simply a group of "nothings" next to God, we really don't have any reason to question what God says or does. However, I'll say this once again about the subject: Many things happened in the OT, but when Jesus came and died for the sins of all, God no longer takes lives. Jesus gave His life for all cases and all peoples sins and that's it.

[DRS]

Follow my rules or I will destroy you. Can you feel the love?

Actually I can, because it is loving on the part of God to protect those who choose to live by the rules

In some cases what you had going was interference with the messianic line when the flood came the Earth was filled with violence and the people were warned

[TheDabbler]

He is letting Bin Laden live.

Then it would seem that, in God's view, Bin Laden has not yet reached the point where divine intervention is neccesary.

It has never been said that God was going to prevent every bad thing from happening or stop every bad person. In my experience He has a very well developed sense of the balance between letting us learn for ourselves while still guiding things towards His desired end. He tends to only visibly step in when a major course correction is needed and there is no other way to pull it off.

[Lie Sniper]

Follow my rules or I will destroy you. Can you feel the love?

:hug:

[DRS]

Whatever God says is sin or a breaking of His rules is against God. Since we're simply a group of "nothings" next to God, we really don't have any reason to question what God says or does. However, I'll say this once again about the subject: Many things happened in the OT, but when Jesus came and died for the sins of all, God no longer takes lives. Jesus gave His life for all cases and all peoples sins and that's it.

Ananias and Sapphira and Herod ring a bell?

[Porkulus Hummer]

Whatever God says is sin or a breaking of His rules is against God. Since we're simply a group of "nothings" next to God, we really don't have any reason to question what God says or does. However, I'll say this once again about the subject: Many things happened in the OT, but when Jesus came and died for the sins of all, God no longer takes lives. Jesus gave His life for all cases and all peoples sins and that's it.

Well, what about Revelation--the seven plagues that will be unleashed on the Earth? What about wherein Jesus said he has not come to bring peace but a sword, to separate families from one another?

[TaylorW65]

Actually I can, because it is loving on the part of God to protect those who choose to live by the rules

In some cases what you had going was interference with the messianic line when the flood came the Earth was filled with violence and the people were warned

On September 11th 2001 God did not protect many people who chose to live by the rules.

Or if you keep with your line of thinking that God does eventually take out those who are against him maybe Muslims are right and they were enacting divine justice to those who were not following God's rules.

It is so easy to justify violence or divine wrath when one person thinks they are on the same side that God is on.

[Porkulus Hummer]

Then it would seem that, in God's view, Bin Laden has not yet reached the point where divine intervention is neccesary.

It has never been said that God was going to prevent every bad thing from happening or stop every bad person. In my experience He has a very well developed sense of the balance between letting us learn for ourselves while still guiding things towards His desired end. He tends to only visibly step in when a major course correction is needed and there is no other way to pull it off.

So 3,000 dead on 911, God said "Nah, no biggie"?

[TheDabbler]

So 3,000 dead on 911, God said "Nah, no biggie"?

I believe that God's long term plans are based on the eternal happiness of his children.

So while 9/11 was probably not something he was overjoyed about, it did not actually threaten God's plans.

When you consider that God has the ability to recompense people infinitely for any amount of suffering they might endure on earth, it shouldn't be that much of a surprise that he does not react to short term physical suffering in the same way we do.

I think many of the most common misconceptions about God come from mistaking His acceptance of short term suffering with a belief that He consequently must not care about our long term happiness.

But you of course may draw whatever conclusion you wish.

[Meriweather]

Well, I could give you a list of the good things Stalin did for the Soviets, does that justify or reconcile that evil he also did?

We're not talking about Stalin. We're talking about God. I also notice you didn't note the circumstances leading up to the deaths. It is like you are God's judge and you made a pronouncement without a trial--and have found Him guilty.

[TaylorW65]

Then it would seem that, in God's view, Bin Laden has not yet reached the point where divine intervention is neccesary.

It has never been said that God was going to prevent every bad thing from happening or stop every bad person. In my experience He has a very well developed sense of the balance between letting us learn for ourselves while still guiding things towards His desired end. He tends to only visibly step in when a major course correction is needed and there is no other way to pull it off.

Ananias and Sapphira were supposedly taken down by God because they lied about not giving all the money to the Church.

Yet God sits idly by and let's people fly air planes into buildings, allows tyrants such as Hitler and Stalin to exterminate millions of people.

So somehow God thinks a lie is a good enough reason to stop someone yet allows terrorists and dictators to murder by the millions. :rolleyes:

[Koushi Shinigami]

Meri,

I sense someone is trying to kick up a hornet's nest. I doubt you'll be getting much of a free exchange of ideas.

This might be a good thread to report.

[Porkulus Hummer]

We're not talking about Stalin. We're talking about God. I also notice you didn't note the circumstances leading up to the deaths. It is like you are God's judge and you made a pronouncement without a trial--and have found Him guilty.

Actually, in my OP it lists their ''crimes''

[Porkulus Hummer]

Meri,

I sense someone is trying to kick up a hornet's nest. I doubt you'll be getting much of a free exchange of ideas.

This might be a good thread to report.

Meriweather claimed I didn't list the events leading to their deaths; I did in my OP, for example, Lot's wife was killed because she looked back--that is simple, it is basically what is said in the Bible. I'm just wondering how some can take a being that kills people because those people either disagreed with it's laws, or simply because it angered them, and support it, and want to even base morality or government laws around it. I made the comparison with Stalin as many of those killed under Stalin were killed for similar reasons, whether to make examples out of them (similar to how hundreds or thousands of people were killed in the Flood), because they angered him, or because they disagreed. I saw a parallel there.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Seems to me, Lot's wife received fair warning.

[Porkulus Hummer]

Seems to me, Lot's wife received fair warning.

So, since God can kill his creations for not listening to a command about something as trivial as that, if I have children, and I tell themto do something, and they don't do it, is it my right to kill them? I gave them fair warning, and they are my creation after all.

[Sketch]

This argument boils down to a few key points:

God is exempt from acting morally. Why? – because he’s god.

Then there is the dilemma of free will and an all knowing god. If god is all knowing then his actions are nothing short of sadistic, but if we all have free will than god cannot know the outcome of things so god is NOT all knowing.

In the end, believers give the gods a pass. When a child recovers from cancer the gods get loads of praise. When another child is kidnapped, raped and beheaded – then it’s because god is mysterious or we cannot understand his long term plan.

[Thor]

Oh and ignore the warnings and the chance people had to avoid such punishements


What "warnings" did the people living in South America, the Pacific Islands, Asia or Africa receive prior to being drowned in a flood? What "warning" did the first born of Egypt receive before being killed? They didn't even do anything.

[Koushi Shinigami]

So, since God can kill his creations for not listening to a command about something as trivial as that, if I have children, and I tell themto do something, and they don't do it, is it my right to kill them? I gave them fair warning, and they are my creation after all.

Apparently, for some reason looking at the destruction was dangerous. So she was told to not do it. She did it anyway and it killed her.

If I tell you to not put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, and then you go and do it anyway and you die because of it, did I kill you?

[Porkulus Hummer]

Apparently, for some reason looking at the destruction was dangerous. So she was told to not do it. She did it anyway and it killed her.

If I tell you to not put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, and then you go and do it anyway and you die because of it, did I kill you?

Except that God was the one pulling the trigger--He himself turned her into a pillow of salt, not any aspect of the carnage.

A more fitting analogy would be if you tell me not to look at a fire engine passing, I do, and you shoot me in the head.

And what of all those in the flood--What warning did they receive? What about the Amalekities? God ordered every living thing in their city to be killed, specifically the young, old, infants, and animals--and then punished Saul I believe it was, who didn't kill EVERYTHING as God commanded. What did the Amaelekites infants do to deserve to be slaughtered?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Except that God was the one pulling the trigger--He himself turned her into a pillow of salt, not any aspect of the carnage.


Neither of us know that for sure one way or the other.

BTW, I think it was a pillar and not a pillow. Although, Archie Bunker made the same error and it got several laughs.

[Porkulus Hummer]

What "warnings" did the people living in South America, the Pacific Islands, Asia or Africa receive prior to being drowned in a flood? What "warning" did the first born of Egypt receive before being killed? They didn't even do anything.

Right, and the reason the first born were killed was because the Pharoah's heart was hardened against the Israelities. His heart was hardened against them not out of free will, but because God made it hardened. So the innocent firstborn died because God decided to make Pharoah behave unkind.

[3inOne]

Apparently, for some reason looking at the destruction was dangerous. So she was told to not do it. She did it anyway and it killed her.

If I tell you to not put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, and then you go and do it anyway and you die because of it, did I kill you?

Well, O'Reilly was responsible for the killing of Tiller, according to some people. Not the killer, but O'Reilly. Imagine "Horror" smiley. (I guess the smilies are not working, I can not reach them.)

[Meriweather]

Meri,

I sense someone is trying to kick up a hornet's nest. I doubt you'll be getting much of a free exchange of ideas.

This might be a good thread to report.


That thought did cross my mind, but then I decided it might be a fun hand to play. I may have a little more time now. Let me see what I can do with it.

[Meriweather]

Actually, in my OP it lists their ''crimes''

Very well. It seemed to me you were focused on deaths, but we can address them as crimes equally as well.

[TheDabbler]

This argument boils down to a few key points:

God is exempt from acting morally. Why? – because he’s god.

I don't think any argument has been made that God is allowed to act immorally. I think the argument is being made that what constitutes a moral action isn't always as simple a matter as we would like to think. Immediate consequences of an action, such as a divine "murder", are easy to see and judge. But as the secondary effects begin to mount up it rapidly becomes out of our power to acurately judge the outcome. It is especially hard to try and judge the merit of an early death when we start talking about the Bible which gives relatively scant information about the people being killed.


Then there is the dilemma of free will and an all knowing god. If god is all knowing then his actions are nothing short of sadistic, but if we all have free will than god cannot know the outcome of things so god is NOT all knowing.

I've always thought this was a fun little paradox as well, but it has a few possible solutions. Consider this, for instance. I know that you just posted on this board. It is part of history. You can't change it. The past is set. Does this in any way remove the fact that it was your own free will that made the posting? I do not see why similar reasoning cannot apply to future events, as all future events are past events from some other perspective.


In the end, believers give the gods a pass. When a child recovers from cancer the gods get loads of praise. When another child is kidnapped, raped and beheaded – then it’s because god is mysterious or we cannot understand his long term plan.
And what is wrong with that? I have had enough positive experiences with God to cut him a little slack and trust that He has a good reason for acting or refusing to act in any given situation. I would no more demand that everything God does make sense "right now" than I would hope for all of mathmatics to become obvious the first moment I learn 2+2=4. As long as the basic principles are sound I am content to continue learning little by little with full confidence one day all will be revealed.

[Meriweather]

Meriweather claimed I didn't list the events leading to their deaths; I did in my OP, for example, Lot's wife was killed because she looked back--that is simple, it is basically what is said in the Bible. I'm just wondering how some can take a being that kills people because those people either disagreed with it's laws, or simply because it angered them, and support it, and want to even base morality or government laws around it. I made the comparison with Stalin as many of those killed under Stalin were killed for similar reasons, whether to make examples out of them (similar to how hundreds or thousands of people were killed in the Flood), because they angered him, or because they disagreed. I saw a parallel there.

First, let's address the nature of God. He is a spiritual being. As such, I will submit that His concern lies most with the health and life of the spirit. Our physical existence is subject to illness, weakness, age. Our physical health will ultimately decline. However, our spiritual health can grow, even in physical weakness.

There are any number of things that we physical beings will do for the overall health of the body: Cut our hair, clip our nails, amputate if necessary. I submit that if our overall spiritual health is at stake due to mismanagement of our physical existence, God will elect everytime to trim the finite physical in order to preserve the spirit which is everlasting. I don't know for sure, but to God some of the "manicuring" He has felt necessary may be to Him what a haircut is to us: Necessary, even essential to the health of our souls or spirits.

You have heard the expression, "Turn over a new leaf." One cannot start a new life when one is always looking back and longing for what one left behind. One cannot start a new llfe if one insists on bringing old ways along. Some will say that Lot's wife in essence lost her life because she could not let go of the life she left and fully enter into the life in front of her.

Stalin is not a spiritual being. That's why I was asking we save Stalin for another discussion. Comparing a physical king to a spiritual king is like comparing the proverbial apples and oranges.

[Meriweather]

So, since God can kill his creations for not listening to a command about something as trivial as that, if I have children, and I tell themto do something, and they don't do it, is it my right to kill them? I gave them fair warning, and they are my creation after all.

Can you give them another life after you have removed them from this one?

[Meriweather]

This argument boils down to a few key points:

God is exempt from acting morally. Why? – because he’s god.

Then there is the dilemma of free will and an all knowing god. If god is all knowing then his actions are nothing short of sadistic, but if we all have free will than god cannot know the outcome of things so god is NOT all knowing.

In the end, believers give the gods a pass. When a child recovers from cancer the gods get loads of praise. When another child is kidnapped, raped and beheaded – then it’s because god is mysterious or we cannot understand his long term plan.

Some may explain it this way, Sketch, but not all. Many of us would refer to the Psalm: Even though I walk through the valley of death, You are at my side. The facts of this life are illness, evil, and natural disasters. God promised He would remain with us through all of that, through death if necessary.

[Meriweather]

Except that God was the one pulling the trigger--He himself turned her into a pillow of salt, not any aspect of the carnage.

A more fitting analogy would be if you tell me not to look at a fire engine passing, I do, and you shoot me in the head.

And what of all those in the flood--What warning did they receive? What about the Amalekities? God ordered every living thing in their city to be killed, specifically the young, old, infants, and animals--and then punished Saul I believe it was, who didn't kill EVERYTHING as God commanded. What did the Amaelekites infants do to deserve to be slaughtered?

I have my own thoughts on the Amalekites, Saul, and Samuel, but let's look at it the way you present it. God has a plan that is going to affect the spiritual well-being of the world. One tribe of people could be the bad apple that affects the entire barrel. When an apple goes bad, one cannot just cut away the bad part and toss the remainder back into the barrel. The entire apple must be removed.

Again, I am not looking at this from physical perspective, but a spiritual one.

[Sketch]

I don't think any argument has been made that God is allowed to act immorally. I think the argument is being made that what constitutes a moral action isn't always as simple a matter as we would like to think. Immediate consequences of an action, such as a divine "murder", are easy to see and judge. But as the secondary effects begin to mount up it rapidly becomes out of our power to acurately judge the outcome. It is especially hard to try and judge the merit of an early death when we start talking about the Bible which gives relatively scant information about the people being killed. .

I suppose that’s fine as long as your are willing to abandon absolute morality in favor of relative morality.


I've always thought this was a fun little paradox as well, but it has a few possible solutions. Consider this, for instance. I know that you just posted on this board. It is part of history. You can't change it. The past is set. Does this in any way remove the fact that it was your own free will that made the posting? I do not see why similar reasoning cannot apply to future events, as all future events are past events from some other perspective. .

I don’t buy it. If the future is known then we are merely playing out destiny; any “choice” in that circumstance is illusion.


And what is wrong with that? I have had enough positive experiences with God to cut him a little slack and trust that He has a good reason for acting or refusing to act in any given situation. I would no more demand that everything God does make sense "right now" than I would hope for all of mathmatics to become obvious the first moment I learn 2+2=4. As long as the basic principles are sound I am content to continue learning little by little with full confidence one day all will be revealed.

Is killing every living person on the planet save one small group sound?

[Meriweather]

Right, and the reason the first born were killed was because the Pharoah's heart was hardened against the Israelities. His heart was hardened against them not out of free will, but because God made it hardened. So the innocent firstborn died because God decided to make Pharoah behave unkind.

Once again, I have a different take on this. Every so often I have a student who will not comply with what I have assigned. When I move to rectify the situation, sometimes the student will become even more determined not to do as I ask. Essentially my move resulted in further hardening this student's heart.

I see the same thing happening between God and Pharoah. Every move God made only served to harden Pharoah's heart.

[Dancer]

Once again, I have a different take on this. Every so often I have a student who will not comply with what I have assigned. When I move to rectify the situation, sometimes the student will become even more determined not to do as I ask. Essentially my move resulted in further hardening this student's heart.

I see the same thing happening between God and Pharoah. Every move God made only served to harden Pharoah's heart.Perhaps had his heart softened rather than hardened he would have set them free on his own...

[DRS]

On September 11th 2001 God did not protect many people who chose to live by the rules.

Or if you keep with your line of thinking that God does eventually take out those who are against him maybe Muslims are right and they were enacting divine justice to those who were not following God's rules.

It is so easy to justify violence or divine wrath when one person thinks they are on the same side that God is on.

You seem to be confusing acts of terror with divine judgment

God warn people before He acts to give them a choice, sort of like the work Christians are suppose to be doing now

[DRS]

Ananias and Sapphira were supposedly taken down by God because they lied about not giving all the money to the Church.

Yet God sits idly by and let's people fly air planes into buildings, allows tyrants such as Hitler and Stalin to exterminate millions of people.

So somehow God thinks a lie is a good enough reason to stop someone yet allows terrorists and dictators to murder by the millions. :rolleyes:

They were not required to give it all they lied and sought glory for themsleves, you also are ignoring they were filled with spirit so they were lying or blaspheming the spirit

[DRS]

What "warnings" did the people living in South America, the Pacific Islands, Asia or Africa receive prior to being drowned in a flood? What "warning" did the first born of Egypt receive before being killed? They didn't even do anything.

Who says there were peoples there yet?

[notluzn]

You seem to be confusing acts of terror with divine judgment

God warn people before He acts to give them a choice, sort of like the work Christians are suppose to be doing now
God does not warn before doing stuff. According to the bible, he stopped 2000 years ago. This is why I don't believe in the Bible all to much.

[DRS]

Once again, I have a different take on this. Every so often I have a student who will not comply with what I have assigned. When I move to rectify the situation, sometimes the student will become even more determined not to do as I ask. Essentially my move resulted in further hardening this student's heart.

I see the same thing happening between God and Pharoah. Every move God made only served to harden Pharoah's heart.

Remember though everytime God did something Pharaoh would say okay okay I give and once the plague was removed he changed his mind.

[notluzn]

Who says there were peoples there yet?The people that were there and left things behind.

[DRS]

God does not warn before doing stuff. According to the bible, he stopped 2000 years ago. This is why I don't believe in the Bible all to much.

Show me something God without warning

[notluzn]

To create eveil, one must be evil.

[DRS]

The people that were there and left things behind.

Biblical account does not show people spreading over the Earth until after flood

[notluzn]

Show me something God without warning God did not say "Hey, Im sending Hurricane Katrina to New Orleans". Seems silly. God also didn't say "Hey look out for that car in the street kid".

[notluzn]

Biblical account does not show people spreading over the Earth until after flood Ok so why didn't the Indians know about noah then?

[DRS]

To create eveil, one must be evil.

When Satan and those along with him rebelled including Adam and Eve they in a sense created evil by making bad choices with the free will they were given

[DRS]

Ok so why didn't the Indians know about noah then?

Are you saying there are no parallels between native legends and the story in the bible?

[DRS]

God did not say "Hey, Im sending Hurricane Katrina to New Orleans". Seems silly. God also didn't say "Hey look out for that car in the street kid".

You are assuming God is the one sending those

[notluzn]

Are you saying there are no parallels between native legends and the story in the bible?Can you?

[notluzn]

You are assuming God is the one sending thoseIsn't he God for a reason or did he give mother nature Freewill?

[notluzn]

Can someone put a mark on a resent warning from God within the last 10 years.

[DRS]

Can you?

The Ojibwe natives who have lived in Minnesota USA since approximately 1400AD also have a creation and flood story that closely paralleles the Biblical account. "There came a time when the harmonious way of life did not continue. Men and women disrespected each other, families quarreled and soon villages began arguing back and forth. This saddened Gitchie Manido [the Creator] greatly, but he waited. Finally, when it seemed there was no hope left, Creator decided to purify Mother Earth through the use of water. The water came, flooding the Earth, catching all of creation off guard. All but a few of each living thing survived." Then it tells how Waynaboozhoo survived by floating on a log in the water with various animals.
Ojibwe - Ancient native American creation story tells of world wide flood.

Delaware Indians - In the pristine age, the world lived at peace; but an evil spirit came and caused a great flood. The earth was submerged. A few persons had taken refuge on the back of a turtle, so old that his shell had collected moss. A loon flew over their heads and was entreated to dive beneath the water and bring up land. It found only a bottomless sea. Then the bird flew far away, came back with a small portion of earth in its bill, and guided the tortoise to a place where there was a spot of dry land.

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

[DRS]

Isn't he God for a reason or did he give mother nature Freewill?

The Earth was going to suffer as a result of man's rebellion, and we do have an effect on our enviroment

[TheDabbler]

Can someone put a mark on a recent warning from God within the last 10 years.

Well, we LDS believe that there is a modern prophet on the earth today. He issues general guidance and helps us to prepare for the coming difficulties. The modern prophets have also issued general warnings to the world that peace and prosperity on earth will only come from following the commandments of God. It has been a great source of strength in my life.

Of course, others will disagree and say that these men aren't really prophets. But some of us believe that God is indeed talking to us, and warning us, through his servants even today.

[Porkulus Hummer]

Once again, I have a different take on this. Every so often I have a student who will not comply with what I have assigned. When I move to rectify the situation, sometimes the student will become even more determined not to do as I ask. Essentially my move resulted in further hardening this student's heart.

I see the same thing happening between God and Pharoah. Every move God made only served to harden Pharoah's heart.

Except that God says clear as day:
Exodus 9:34-10:2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?NIV_version=yes&passage=Exodus+9:34-10:2):
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD." and Exodus 10:20


Exodus 10:20 (New International Version)
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

[Clintville]

Oh and ignore the warnings and the chance people had to avoid such punishements

I don't think the children of Egypt had much of a choice.

[Meriweather]

Except that God says clear as day:
Exodus 9:34-10:2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?NIV_version=yes&passage=Exodus+9:34-10:2):
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."
and Exodus 10:20


Exodus 10:20 (New International Version)
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

I also know that God has given each of us free will. I don't doubt that God painted Pharoah into a corner--but I do believe Pharoah played his own part, too. I believe had he really wanted to, Pharoah could have chosen differently.

[I am the Eggman]

Remember though everytime God did something Pharaoh would say okay okay I give and once the plague was removed he changed his mind.
The problem is that your god warned pharoh and killed the children when he didn't listen. Not dissimilar to the tactics the Palestinians use against the Israelis.

[notluzn]

When Satan and those along with him rebelled including Adam and Eve they in a sense created evil by making bad choices with the free will they were given The God should have known that free will gives people no limits. Who's mistake was it? If he didn't like free will why not take it back?

[notluzn]

Are you saying there are no parallels between native legends and the story in the bible? No because the Indians we here long before Noah was even born. Who's reconds are more correct? Biblical or all other civilizations?

Maybe there way a local tragedy where Noah lived where a flood happend. To a culture back then anything that killed people was said to be from God. We all now know that the Earth does these things. Earthquakes are from movement within the Earth, not God angry at the Romans.

BTW, I believe in God 100% but I don't think he's causing devestation for us.

[mgifford]

Well, what about Revelation--the seven plagues that will be unleashed on the Earth? What about wherein Jesus said he has not come to bring peace but a sword, to separate families from one another?

Revelation! All in the future. The Rapture takes the saved away in Rev. 4:1 and then it's all futuristic.

Jesus has come to separate the families? Never heard of it.

[mgifford]

Ananias and Sapphira were supposedly taken down by God because they lied about not giving all the money to the Church.

Yet God sits idly by and let's people fly air planes into buildings, allows tyrants such as Hitler and Stalin to exterminate millions of people.

So somehow God thinks a lie is a good enough reason to stop someone yet allows terrorists and dictators to murder by the millions. :rolleyes:

They did die from lying to the "HS", but BTW, God doesn't do all the dastardly deeds that many accuse him of.

[mgifford]

Seems to me, Lot's wife received fair warning.

She was OT!

[mgifford]

What "warnings" did the people living in South America, the Pacific Islands, Asia or Africa receive prior to being drowned in a flood? What "warning" did the first born of Egypt receive before being killed? They didn't even do anything.

Old testament!

[biggles53]

I also know that God has given each of us free will. I don't doubt that God painted Pharoah into a corner--but I do believe Pharoah played his own part, too. I believe had he really wanted to, Pharoah could have chosen differently.

Meri, you may well be able to sustain that particular argument - ie, that it was Pharoah that brought about that situation, rather than intercession by your god. It largely becomes a question of semantics.

But address some of the broader issues. Global infanticide as a result of the 'Flood', for example?? How did all those presumably innocent children have an opportunity to exercise their "free will" before they were flushed out of existence by your god? How could they even be aware that they were 'guilty sinners', so that they might do something to make amends...?

And please, don't belittle the argument with one of those "we cannot always know the mind of God" responses.....

[TheDabbler]

Meri, you may well be able to sustain that particular argument - ie, that it was Pharoah that brought about that situation, rather than intercession by your god. It largely becomes a question of semantics.

But address some of the broader issues. Global infanticide as a result of the 'Flood', for example?? How did all those presumably innocent children have an opportunity to exercise their "free will" before they were flushed out of existence by your god? How could they even be aware that they were 'guilty sinners', so that they might do something to make amends...?

And please, don't belittle the argument with one of those "we cannot always know the mind of God" responses.....

Well, some faiths, such as the LDS, believe that all souls existed with God before coming to this earth and agreed to the terms and challenges of this life in exchange for the chance to work towards greater happiness. Free will doesn't begin in this life, it is an ongoing principle.

So those innocent children, before birth, were well aware that some of them would likely end up being wiped out in the flood. They nonetheless agreed to go. If anything, they may have been relieved to not have to grow up in a society so tainted by evil. Instead they got to skip the possibilites of corruption and go straight on to glory.

In this set of circumstances most "bad things" don't seem nearly so injust. Everyone to ever be born has already accepted the risks and dangers of life. So we aren't the victims of God, we're willing participants in this grand learning experience.

[biggles53]

Jesus has come to separate the families? Never heard of it.

Matthew 10

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[biggles53]

Well, some faiths, such as the LDS, believe that all souls existed with God before coming to this earth and agreed to the terms and challenges of this life in exchange for the chance to work towards greater happiness. Free will doesn't begin in this life, it is an ongoing principle.

So those innocent children, before birth, were well aware that some of them would likely end up being wiped out in the flood. They nonetheless agreed to go. If anything, they may have been relieved to not have to grow up in a society so tainted by evil. Instead they got to skip the possibilites of corruption and go straight on to glory.

In this set of circumstances most "bad things" don't seem nearly so injust. Everyone to ever be born has already accepted the risks and dangers of life. So we aren't the victims of God, we're willing participants in this grand learning experience.

Sorry. Spock response - "Doesn't compute Captain."

What would be the purpose of even "coming to this earth" if one already enjoyed the pleasures of living in paradise!? What "greater happiness" is supposed to outdo an eternal existence with your god?

God to Soul 154631: "Well, you're perfect, but we can make you even perfecter if you'll just go down onto this ball of mud I've made and see how you deal with its challenges. Whaddya say....?"

[Meriweather]

Meri, you may well be able to sustain that particular argument - ie, that it was Pharoah that brought about that situation, rather than intercession by your god. It largely becomes a question of semantics.

But address some of the broader issues. Global infanticide as a result of the 'Flood', for example?? How did all those presumably innocent children have an opportunity to exercise their "free will" before they were flushed out of existence by your god? How could they even be aware that they were 'guilty sinners', so that they might do something to make amends...?

And please, don't belittle the argument with one of those "we cannot always know the mind of God" responses.....

I'll try to address this tomorrow when I'm not so tired. Did you happen to see what I posted earlier in the day in Post #36?

http://forums.hannity.com/showpost.php?p=57094291&postcount=36

I tried to address a little of what you are asking about in that post.

[TheDabbler]

Sorry. Spock response - "Doesn't compute Captain."

What would be the purpose of even "coming to this earth" if one already enjoyed the pleasures of living in paradise!? What "greater happiness" is supposed to outdo an eternal existence with your god?

God to Soul 154631: "Well, you're perfect, but we can make you even perfecter if you'll just go down onto this ball of mud I've made and see how you deal with its challenges. Whaddya say....?"

Who says we were perfect before coming to earth? We may have had no sins, but that's not quite the same thing. In fact, there were several things we lacked in order to have perfect joy. Like physical bodies, families, knowledge, power, complete autonomy, etc...

For whatever reason some of these things could not be obtained in a spiritual world. This neccesitated the organization of a physical world.

Obviously you do not have to believe this. But a perspective involving life and free will both before and after this life does answer a lot of questions about divine justive that just don't make sense if we only look at our breif mortal existence.

[mgifford]

Matthew 10

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

"Bible context has to be the favorite friend of the Bible reader who wants to read and learn".

Matthew 10:21
a [And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death]

The gospel brings division and strife in families and nations, because some love darkness rather than light (John 3:18-21; 2 Cor. 2:16-17; 2 Cor. 4:2-4).

[Koushi Shinigami]

She was OT!

Your point?

[DRS]

I don't think the children of Egypt had much of a choice.

Moses went to Pharaoh and the people how many times fore release.

Parents are responisble for their children they make bad choices and children suffer, happens all the time.

[DRS]

The problem is that your god warned pharoh and killed the children when he didn't listen. Not dissimilar to the tactics the Palestinians use against the Israelis.

How many warning did the Egyptians get and was death the first thing that happened or was it the very last after there had been other attempts?

[DRS]

The God should have known that free will gives people no limits. Who's mistake was it? If he didn't like free will why not take it back?

Man makes the choice then man suffers the consequences

It is not like God hasn't promised to make everything better

[DRS]

No because the Indians we here long before Noah was even born. Who's reconds are more correct? Biblical or all other civilizations?

Maybe there way a local tragedy where Noah lived where a flood happend. To a culture back then anything that killed people was said to be from God. We all now know that the Earth does these things. Earthquakes are from movement within the Earth, not God angry at the Romans.

BTW, I believe in God 100% but I don't think he's causing devestation for us.

Why do we have the Indians with a record counting days that we can read about or are there estimates that one goes by?

[notluzn]

Of course there's floods in those areas and there are floods in those areas today.

Now if you believe what the bible says, then there is a mistake in your Indian Theory. Didn't the flood wipe out all of man except for the ones on the Ark? so in that case, no indians would have liveds. But since indians have been here in the americas for 10's of thousands of years, we have to also toss the 6000 year old earth rule as well.

I could never take the bible for literal. error in the system of man's wishful thinking that wrote it. The Ojibwe natives who have lived in Minnesota USA since approximately 1400AD also have a creation and flood story that closely paralleles the Biblical account. "There came a time when the harmonious way of life did not continue. Men and women disrespected each other, families quarreled and soon villages began arguing back and forth. This saddened Gitchie Manido [the Creator] greatly, but he waited. Finally, when it seemed there was no hope left, Creator decided to purify Mother Earth through the use of water. The water came, flooding the Earth, catching all of creation off guard. All but a few of each living thing survived." Then it tells how Waynaboozhoo survived by floating on a log in the water with various animals.
Ojibwe - Ancient native American creation story tells of world wide flood.

Delaware Indians - In the pristine age, the world lived at peace; but an evil spirit came and caused a great flood. The earth was submerged. A few persons had taken refuge on the back of a turtle, so old that his shell had collected moss. A loon flew over their heads and was entreated to dive beneath the water and bring up land. It found only a bottomless sea. Then the bird flew far away, came back with a small portion of earth in its bill, and guided the tortoise to a place where there was a spot of dry land.

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

[notluzn]

Why do we have the Indians with a record counting days that we can read about or are there estimates that one goes by?
Even Birds now when to fly south for the winter. Humans are built to organize with time and keep dates.

[notluzn]

Man makes the choice then man suffers the consequences

It is not like God hasn't promised to make everything better

Man didn't make a choice, Adam and Eve did. People in prison had a chioce but we're not all in prison because of their choices.

[TheDabbler]

Of course there's floods in those areas and there are floods in those areas today.

Now if you believe what the bible says, then there is a mistake in your Indian Theory. Didn't the flood wipe out all of man except for the ones on the Ark? so in that case, no indians would have liveds. But since indians have been here in the americas for 10's of thousands of years, we have to also toss the 6000 year old earth rule as well.

I could never take the bible for literal. error in the system of man's wishful thinking that wrote it.

Is there any partiular reason that the indians couldn't have migrated to the Americas at some point after the flood?

And is it in any way possible that the archaeologists made a mistake in calculating how long the Indians have been here? Trying to date ancient artifacts is a risky business full of dangerous assumptions that can lead to grave error.

[DRS]

Man didn't make a choice, Adam and Eve did. People in prison had a chioce but we're not all in prison because of their choices.

No but others suffer because of their choice

You live under the choices other made, for instance you live under the government you do because other made a choice in the election, others made a choice hundreds of years ago to set up a certain form of government.

[DRS]

Even Birds now when to fly south for the winter. Humans are built to organize with time and keep dates.

So where are those writings with those dates

[notluzn]

Is there any partiular reason that the indians couldn't have migrated to the Americas at some point after the flood?

And is it in any way possible that the archaeologists made a mistake in calculating how long the Indians have been here? Trying to date ancient artifacts is a risky business full of dangerous assumptions that can lead to grave error.
There are just to many errors in the Whole Earth Flood theory. Local flooding is certain. Science has a margin of error but not that far off. Still way before the Noahs life.

[DRS]

Of course there's floods in those areas and there are floods in those areas today.

Now if you believe what the bible says, then there is a mistake in your Indian Theory. Didn't the flood wipe out all of man except for the ones on the Ark? so in that case, no indians would have liveds. But since indians have been here in the americas for 10's of thousands of years, we have to also toss the 6000 year old earth rule as well.

I could never take the bible for literal. error in the system of man's wishful thinking that wrote it.

Again I will ask do they have dates after the tower of babel man began to split up over the surface of the Earth

As the for the age of the universe or the Earth itself, since God has been resting since the stop of creation and that is referred to as a day and it has been 6000 years each creative day could be 6000 years long which would make the Earth older than 6000 years

[notluzn]

No but others suffer because of their choice

You live under the choices other made, for instance you live under the government you do because other made a choice in the election, others made a choice hundreds of years ago to set up a certain form of government.

So God made a mistake then with the creation of Adama and eve and the fallen angel. If I make a Robot that turns on people and kills people, I made a mistake. correct?

[DRS]

There are just to many errors in the Whole Earth Flood theory. Local flooding is certain. Science has a margin of error but not that far off. Still way before the Noahs life.

And the animals flash frozen with vegeation in their stomachs in climates where nothing grows happened how

[TheDabbler]

So God made a mistake then with the creation of Adama and eve and the fallen angel. If I make a Robot that turns on people and kills people, I made a mistake. correct?

But if you have a child that grows up to be a murderer, you aren't neccesarily at fault.

The assumption you are making is that God made humans out of nothing and should have been able to make sure they never did anything bad.

But what if the relationship between God and Man is more like that of father and child? What if some part of each eternal soul is independent of God? What if God didn't make us out of nothing, but made our souls out of something? And what if that something has always had free will?

I believe this is called the theory of partial creation. A lot of Christian's don't subscribe to it, but technically speaking the Bible doesn't really contradict it. After all, it says God created everything. It never said how, or out of what.

[notluzn]

And the animals flash frozen with vegeation in their stomachs in climates where nothing grows happened how

When people die in cold climates, they freeze quickly. Ever been to Alaska in the winter?

[notluzn]

There can't be any imperfections if God is perfect. But if you have a child that grows up to be a murderer, you aren't neccesarily at fault.

The assumption you are making is that God made humans out of nothing and should have been able to make sure they never did anything bad.

But what if the relationship between God and Man is more like that of father and child? What if some part of each eternal soul is independent of God? What if God didn't make us out of nothing, but made our souls out of something? And what if that something has always had free will?

I believe this is called the theory of partial creation. A lot of Christian's don't subscribe to it, but technically speaking the Bible doesn't really contradict it. After all, it says God created everything. It never said how, or out of what.

[DRS]

When people die in cold climates, they freeze quickly. Ever been to Alaska in the winter?

With vegatation that does not grow there in there mouth and stomach undigested?

[Thor]

Old testament!

Yeah, what's your point?

[Thor]

With vegatation that does not grow there in there mouth and stomach undigested?

What are you talkling about?

[DRS]

What are you talkling about?

Preserved frozen remains of woolly mammoths, with much soft tissue remaining, have been found in the northern parts of Siberia. This is a rare occurrence, essentially requiring the animal to have been buried rapidly in liquid or semi-solids such as silt, mud and icy water which then froze. This may have occurred in a number of ways. Mammoths may have been trapped in bogs or quicksands and either died of starvation or exposure, or drowning if they sank under the surface. The evidence of undigested food in the stomach and seed pods still in the mouth of many of the specimens suggests that neither starvation nor exposure are likely. The maturity of this ingested vegetation places the time period in autumn rather than in spring when flowers would be expected.[16] The animals may have fallen through ice into small ponds or potholes, entombing them. Many are certainly known to have been killed in rivers, perhaps through being swept away by river floods. In one location, by the Berelekh River in Yakutia in Siberia, more than 9,000 bones from at least 156 individual mammoths have been found in a single spot, apparently having been swept there by the current.[17][18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth

There are other possibilities for this given but the flood account works too

[notluzn]

So the Flood killed the Dinosaurs as well? i'm not sure what you're getting at but there is still no signs anywhere on earththat there was a massive flood. Preserved frozen remains of woolly mammoths, with much soft tissue remaining, have been found in the northern parts of Siberia. This is a rare occurrence, essentially requiring the animal to have been buried rapidly in liquid or semi-solids such as silt, mud and icy water which then froze. This may have occurred in a number of ways. Mammoths may have been trapped in bogs or quicksands and either died of starvation or exposure, or drowning if they sank under the surface. The evidence of undigested food in the stomach and seed pods still in the mouth of many of the specimens suggests that neither starvation nor exposure are likely. The maturity of this ingested vegetation places the time period in autumn rather than in spring when flowers would be expected.[16] The animals may have fallen through ice into small ponds or potholes, entombing them. Many are certainly known to have been killed in rivers, perhaps through being swept away by river floods. In one location, by the Berelekh River in Yakutia in Siberia, more than 9,000 bones from at least 156 individual mammoths have been found in a single spot, apparently having been swept there by the current.[17][18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth

There are other possibilities for this given but the flood account works too

[Thor]

Is there any partiular reason that the indians couldn't have migrated to the Americas at some point after the flood?


Certainly not in the time frame we're talking about. If you believe the flood story, approximately 4,000 years ago the only people left on the planet were Noah and his family. It defies logic and common sense to believe that different races of people could develop from one family and populate far off lands (the Americas - particularly South America, the Pacific Islands, Australia, etc.) in the short span of a few thousand years.

[Thor]

Preserved frozen remains of woolly mammoths, with much soft tissue remaining, have been found in the northern parts of Siberia. This is a rare occurrence, essentially requiring the animal to have been buried rapidly in liquid or semi-solids such as silt, mud and icy water which then froze. This may have occurred in a number of ways. Mammoths may have been trapped in bogs or quicksands and either died of starvation or exposure, or drowning if they sank under the surface. The evidence of undigested food in the stomach and seed pods still in the mouth of many of the specimens suggests that neither starvation nor exposure are likely. The maturity of this ingested vegetation places the time period in autumn rather than in spring when flowers would be expected.[16] The animals may have fallen through ice into small ponds or potholes, entombing them. Many are certainly known to have been killed in rivers, perhaps through being swept away by river floods. In one location, by the Berelekh River in Yakutia in Siberia, more than 9,000 bones from at least 156 individual mammoths have been found in a single spot, apparently having been swept there by the current.[17][18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth

There are other possibilities for this given but the flood account works too

Where is the reference for "vegatation that does not grow there in there mouth and stomach undigested" (sic)?

[notluzn]

Certainly not in the time frame we're talking about. If you believe the flood story, approximately 4,000 years ago the only people left on the planet were Noah and his family. It defies logic and common sense to believe that different races of people could develop from one family and populate far off lands (the Americas - particularly South America, the Pacific Islands, Australia, etc.) in the short span of a few thousand years. Correct. Plus almost right after, they were building the Pyramids.

Remember, these are the same people that when they saw a comet or meteor shower, they believed that it was an Oman of Death. Those people are children in the way they think compared to us. Take a Helicopter back to those days, and you would be a God.

[DRS]

Where is the reference for "vegatation that does not grow there in there mouth and stomach undigested" (sic)?

Sorry that was something else I had been reading about vegetation found frozen intact and preserved that was not native to the area now

[DRS]

Correct. Plus almost right after, they were building the Pyramids.

Remember, these are the same people that when they saw a comet or meteor shower, they believed that it was an Oman of Death. Those people are children in the way they think compared to us. Take a Helicopter back to those days, and you would be a God.

No right after they started having children and eventually took to building the tower of babel, the languages were confused and they started to split up over the Earth

Abraham was ten generations later about 800 years and the Jews were about another 400 years after that as a nation

[Thor]

No right after they started having children and eventually took to building the tower of babel, the languages were confused and they started to split up over the Earth


Where is the evidence for this tower? And why did this deity feel the need to stop people from building a tower? Supposedly, these people were trying to reach heaven by building a tower. This is impossible. Was this tower higher than a plane can fly? This god allowed planes to be built. This story makes zero sense. And it still does not account for the impossibility of people developing into different racial groups and populating far off lands in a short space of time.

[Thor]

Sorry that was something else I had been reading about vegetation found frozen intact and preserved that was not native to the area now

Looks like your "evidence" for the flood story takes a major hit.

[optrader]

Was reading a site, and these are some of the murders committed by God in the Bible:


Every human and animal on earth that wasn't on Noah's Ark. Crime - being evil. Method of execution - drowning.
The cities of Sodom and Gommorah. Crime – being evil (or possibly homosexual). Method of execution – burnt to death by burning sulfur from heaven. Cruel and unusual.
Lot’s wife. Crime - looking back at the firework display above. Method of execution – turned into pillar of salt. Gen.19:26
The firstborn of Egypt. Crime - being firstborn when God decided to show his strength. God hardened Pharoah's heart so he refused to let the Israelities go. Method of execution – The Angel of Death. Exodus 12:29
The Egyptian army. Crime - refusing to disobey orders to pursue said Israelites. Method of execution – drowned when the Red Sea returned. Exodus 14:28
Er. Crime - "wicked in the sight of the Lord". Method of execution - not specified. Gen.38:7.
Onan. Crime - Disobeying God's orders to impregnate his dead brother's wife. Method of execution - not specified. Gen.38:10. (unlucky family)
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families). Crime – challenging Moses. Method of execution– buried alive, swallowed by the earth. Num.16:27 -32.
250 men. Crime – followers of Korah. Method of execution – burnt to death by fire from heaven. Num.16:35,
14,700 people. Crime - complaining about the previous two. Method of execution – plague. Num.16:49.
24,000 people. Crime – sexual immorality with Moabite women, worshiping Baal. Method of execution – plague. Num.25:9.
Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu. Crime - offering strange fire before the Lord. Method of execution – burnt to death by holy fire. Lev.10:1-3.
Either 70 or 50,070 men depending on the translation. Crime – looking into the ark. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Sam.6:19.
Nabal. Crime – being ungrateful to David. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Sam.25:38.
Uzzah. Crime – touching the ark to stop it falling. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Sam.6:6-7.
David and Bathsheba's baby boy. Crime – none, it was to punish David. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Sam.12:14-18
70,000 people. Crime – David held a census. Method of execution – plague. 2 Sam.24:13.
A prophet. Crime – believing another prophet. Method of execution – being killed by a lion. 1 Kg.13:1-24.
A man. Crime – refusing to strike a prophet when the prophet asked him to. Method of execution – being killed by a lion. 1 Kg.20:35-36.
Ahaziah. Crime - talking to the wrong God. Method of execution – did not leave his bed. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17.
102 soldiers. Crime – not talking nicely to Elisha. Method of execution - burnt to death by fire from heaven. 2 Kg.1:9-12.
42 youths. Crime – mocking Elisha's baldness. Method of execution – God sent bears to kill them. 2 Kg.2:23-24.
Some foreigners. Crime – not worshiping God. Method of execution - God sent lions to kill them. 2 Kg.17:25-26.
185,000 soldiers. Crime – being at war with Israel. Method of execution – the angel of the lord killed them while they slept. 2 Kg.19:35.
Saul. Crime – unfaithful to the lord. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Chr.10:14
Jeroboam. Crime – rebellion against Abijah. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Chr.13:20,
Jehoram. Crime – doing evil in the sight of the lord. Method of execution – God made his bowels fall out. 2 Chr.21:14-19.
Ananias and Sapphira. Crime - Deceit. (Pretending they sold their land for less than they did, so that they could pretend to give all the money to the church, when in reality they kept a nice bit of their money to themselves.) Method of execution – not specified, perhaps heart attack. Acts 5:1-10. (
Personally, I can't support a deity that's essentially a mass murderer--no better than a Stalin. He killed the firstborn children of Egypt because Pharoah wouldn't allow the Israelities to be freed--even though it was God who hardened Pharoah's heart so that he wouldn't let the Israelities leave. He drowned most of the population of Earth, more than likely which included women and children, because they were all somehow evil. He killed two entire cities, because they displeased him, along with thousands, if not millions of others.

You left someone off your list.

Porkulus Hummer. Crime- not supporting a deity he believes to be a mass murderer. Method of execution - allowing him the freedom to make foolish decisions and die without a saviour.

[Thor]

Take a Helicopter back to those days, and you would be a God.

Reminds me of a "Gilligan's Island" episode when the castaways convince the natives that they're gods by playing a radio and shining a flashlight.

[Dancer]

On September 11th 2001 God did not protect many people who chose to live by the rules. How do you know God's judgment for those people? You have a direct line to God? :eek:

Or if you keep with your line of thinking that God does eventually take out those who are against him maybe Muslims are right and they were enacting divine justice to those who were not following God's rules.

It is so easy to justify violence or divine wrath when one person thinks they are on the same side that God is on.Well, the 'divine wrath' part I think is self explanatory. If the wrath is from the divine, then clearly it was justified (as God's Truth is objective). I don't judge God and his choices. It isn't my job. It is HIS job to judge me, not the other way around.

A judge who condemns a man to death isn't a murderer. The person who pushes the button in the gas chamber isn't a murderer. Murder is taking a life against the law.

God, being the judge, isn't a murderer. God wrote the law. God sets the punishment (or remands it), we simply pull the guillotine blade down upon ourselves and one another once judgment is set.

Justifying human violence, whether it is from an Islamic terrorist or an American soldier is going to be subjective to one's perspective. The Islamic terrorist might find his wrath justifiable due to "American Imperialism" while the American soldier finds his wrath justifiable because he is protecting the lives of his family and friends back home. Both will be judged, the God I know is going to be reading the hearts of both. I'll leave judgment in his hands up there because I know he is loving and his will is always going to be that which is best for all of us as a whole. I have my subjective OPINIONS on how he might treat either, or, or both, but I recognize that God is good and his decision, whatever it is, will be the right decision.

[Thor]

You left someone off your list.

Porkulus Hummer. Crime- not supporting a deity he believes to be a mass murderer. Method of execution - allowing him the freedom to make foolish decisions and die without a saviour.

Does Muhammed count as a savior? Because a billion Muslims do not believe that Jesus was divine. (To say nothing of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, etc...)

[DRS]

Looks like your "evidence" for the flood story takes a major hit.

Nope, you still have mammoths found frozen with food and seeds still in there mouths and stomachs, showing they froze quickly which would happen i fyou look at the flood account as the Earth too would have seen a change

[DRS]

Where is the evidence for this tower? And why did this deity feel the need to stop people from building a tower? Supposedly, these people were trying to reach heaven by building a tower. This is impossible. Was this tower higher than a plane can fly? This god allowed planes to be built. This story makes zero sense. And it still does not account for the impossibility of people developing into different racial groups and populating far off lands in a short space of time.

No they were not spreading about the Earth as they were suppoe to intead they were staying in one area.

It would probably if you read and studied what was going on istead just asserting it makes no sense

If God who designed humans can alter the human brain so new language is formed and the old one forgotten do you think it would be harded for Him to do the same thing that allows for pigmentation in the skin?

[notluzn]

No they were not spreading about the Earth as they were suppoe to intead they were staying in one area.

It would probably if you read and studied what was going on istead just asserting it makes no sense

If God who designed humans can alter the human brain so new language is formed and the old one forgotten do you think it would be harded for Him to do the same thing that allows for pigmentation in the skin?
LOL.. Sorry but that is just silly. He zapped people to speak different language and become Black. Once again, no purpose.

[TaylorW65]

No they were not spreading about the Earth as they were suppoe to intead they were staying in one area.

It would probably if you read and studied what was going on istead just asserting it makes no sense

If God who designed humans can alter the human brain so new language is formed and the old one forgotten do you think it would be harded for Him to do the same thing that allows for pigmentation in the skin?

But that all sounds like magic to me. God waiving his wand to change people's languages and skin color.

[DRS]

LOL.. Sorry but that is just silly. He zapped people to speak different language and become Black. Once again, no purpose.

Yep just zapped them, it is not like we have genetic code written into with extensive preprogramming that we are studying now

I mean it is not like people are looking into making changes now on the molecular level

That must be all crazy talk to

By the way if people were settling areas where having extra pigment would prevent other ailments it makes perfect sense. Someone like myself would suffer in a place like Africa

[TheDabbler]

LOL.. Sorry but that is just silly. He zapped people to speak different language and become Black. Once again, no purpose.

Let us assume that God's long term plan is to help people become happy in the eternities. Let us further assume that in order to achieve this happiness a people must follow the commandments of God. Anything then that distracts from God and his commandments is then evil.

The group of people in this story had become more confident in their own intelect and power than in God. This pride led them to make poor decisions and disdain the commandments of God. This would eventually lead to mass misery and thwart the plans of God.

God intervenes by corrupting their languages. Unable to communicate one with another, the group unity fell apart. Their misplaced confidence in themselves was shaken, allowing space for renewed faith in God. This faith could then begin to lead them again towards happiness.

So it is an action that certainly could have served a wise purpose.

[DRS]

But that all sounds like magic to me. God waiving his wand to change people's languages and skin color.

I am sure if we showed people light switches who were less technologically advanced they would think it is magic too

We have things going on inside us that we are just starting to study and scratch the surface on. God creates us designs us I do not think it is too hard for Him run a bypass in our brain so we know longer understand a language or have certain elements of our DNA all of sudden in some indivuals start producing more pigment

[notluzn]

Yep just zapped them, it is not like we have genetic code written into with extensive preprogramming that we are studying now

I mean it is not like people are looking into making changes now on the molecular level

That must be all crazy talk to

By the way if people were settling areas where having extra pigment would prevent other ailments it makes perfect sense. Someone like myself would suffer in a place like AfricaGod would never do such and thing because htere is no purpose and there goes freewill

[Thor]

Nope, you still have mammoths found frozen with food and seeds still in there mouths and stomachs, showing they froze quickly which would happen i fyou look at the flood account as the Earth too would have seen a change

How this provides evidence for a global flood simply escapes me. If the floodwaters covered the planet for months, the dead animals would have rotted away, not become frozen. Your argument makes no sense.

[notluzn]

Is this written in the Bible? I love you all but this sillyness is just to far out there. So anyone other than English Speaking Whites, all else have a punishment behind them. LOLLet us assume that God's long term plan is to help people become happy in the eternities. Let us further assume that in order to achieve this happiness a people must follow the commandments of God. Anything then that distracts from God and his commandments is then evil.

The group of people in this story had become more confident in their own intelect and power than in God. This pride led them to make poor decisions and disdain the commandments of God. This would eventually lead to mass misery and thwart the plans of God.

God intervenes by corrupting their languages. Unable to communicate one with another, the group unity fell apart. Their misplaced confidence in themselves was shaken, allowing space for renewed faith in God. This faith could then begin to lead them again towards happiness.

So it is an action that certainly could have served a wise purpose.

[notluzn]

I think people have the wrong Idea of God and his plans.

[TheDabbler]

Is this written in the Bible? I love you all but this sillyness is just to far out there. So anyone other than English Speaking Whites, all else have a punishment behind them. LOL

The Bible doesn't neccesarily contain the perfect knowledge of everything. It is especially sparce on the whys and hows, especially for the ancient events in the book of Genesis.

I in no way am saying that I know why God did what he did, nor how. I am merely endeavoring to show that there do exist situations in which His actions would make sense and that they may not be as "silly" as we first think.

English is a fairly modern tongue and has nothing to do with the original language of mankind.

[notluzn]

The Bible doesn't neccesarily contain the perfect knowledge of everything. It is especially sparce on the whys and hows, especially for the ancient events in the book of Genesis.

I in no way am saying that I know why God did what he did, nor how. I am merely endeavoring to show that there do exist situations in which His actions would make sense and that they may not be as "silly" as we first think.

English is a fairly modern tongue and has nothing to do with the original language of mankind.

True, the bible should never be uses as a History Book or Science Book. It has great stories that people should take into making for a better life. But, there are many samples of things that just go beyond reality and sillyness. The Flood is the best one IMO. I can go with Local flooding and living in those times if something happened like that, I would probably think the entire world was flooded. Heck, when I was a child, I thought that there were monsters under my bed. But then people use the end all "Devine Intervention" because they have no answer other than that. I myself, believes that God does things with Purpose and simple purposes at that. Created the universe. Why not sounds like fun. Created Man. Why Not, I love watching thing progress and adapt.

That is someone of the same feeling that people that create and build things have. It's an enjoyment and a plus to see it in action.

[TheDabbler]

True, the bible should never be uses as a History Book or Science Book. It has great stories that people should take into making for a better life. But, there are many samples of things that just go beyond reality and sillyness. The Flood is the best one IMO. I can go with Local flooding and living in those times if something happened like that, I would probably think the entire world was flooded. Heck, when I was a child, I thought that there were monsters under my bed. But then people use the end all "Devine Intervention" because they have no answer other than that. I myself, believes that God does things with Purpose and simple purposes at that. Created the universe. Why not sounds like fun. Created Man. Why Not, I love watching thing progress and adapt.

That is someone of the same feeling that people that create and build things have. It's an enjoyment and a plus to see it in action.

I take it you are a Deist then? Someone who believes that God does not interfere after he has created?

In any case, the fact that some things once thought to be "Divine Intervention" have been proven to be natural phenomenon does not neccesarily mean that all divine intervention is false. I personally believe in an active God who is more than willing to step in and make modifications as things go along.

As a computer programmer I can also understand the joy of putting something together and seeing it work. But at the same time, even after it starts working I can't manage to keep my hands off it. Tinkering, changing things, guiding the input along, altering the output. Half the fun comes from the constant modifications. And when something as unpredictable as a User comes along... a static set of code just doesn't stand a chance.

[Thor]

No they were not spreading about the Earth as they were suppoe to intead they were staying in one area.


So the story goes....

It would probably if you read and studied what was going on istead just asserting it makes no sense


Instead of "spreading about the Earth" as they were "supposed to", these people were staying in one place. At some point they decided to build a tower so they could reach heaven (an impossibility). The deity then came down from the sky and prevented them from completing the tower by making everyone speak different languages.

This makes sense to you?

If God who designed humans can alter the human brain so new language is formed and the old one forgotten do you think it would be harded for Him to do the same thing that allows for pigmentation in the skin?

So.... what? He snapped his fingers and turned some people black and made them move to Africa? He snapped his fingers and made some people have slanted eyes then sent them to Asia? This makes NO SENSE.

And you perfectly illustrate why it is impossible to win an argument with a believer. No matter how ridiculous the story, no matter how much evidence contradicts your position, you can always reach into your hat and pull out the "God can do anything" argument.

[notluzn]

But as a human you make mistakes and God does not make mistakes and everything is correct the first time. To be anything different would mean god makes mistakes which he does not.
I take it you are a Deist then? Someone who believes that God does not interfere after he has created?

In any case, the fact that some things once thought to be "Divine Intervention" have been proven to be natural phenomenon does not neccesarily mean that all divine intervention is false. I personally believe in an active God who is more than willing to step in and make modifications as things go along.

As a computer programmer I can also understand the joy of putting something together and seeing it work. But at the same time, even after it starts working I can't manage to keep my hands off it. Tinkering, changing things, guiding the input along, altering the output. Half the fun comes from the constant modifications. And when something as unpredictable as a User comes along... a static set of code just doesn't stand a chance.

[TheDabbler]

But as a human you make mistakes and God does not make mistakes and everything is correct the first time. To be anything different would mean god makes mistakes which he does not.

Introducing: the End User. Even a "perfect" program will fall apart or generate bad results if a sufficiently inept user is working with it. Garbage in, garbage out.

Remember, I have suggested that the free will of human beings exists outside of God. He didn't make it, it just "is" in the same way that God just "is". Co-eternal. Because God did not make it, he cannot be blamed for it's flaws.

So we cannot blame God for our mistakes. He didn't make our free will. He just harnessed it and have it a vessel to work with, crafting souls and bodies.

[Thank you Troops]

People complain when God doesn't do anything about evil and complain when he does.

[SaintVegas]

Was reading a site, and these are some of the murders committed by God in the Bible:


Every human and animal on earth that wasn't on Noah's Ark. Crime - being evil. Method of execution - drowning.
The cities of Sodom and Gommorah. Crime – being evil (or possibly homosexual). Method of execution – burnt to death by burning sulfur from heaven. Cruel and unusual.
Lot’s wife. Crime - looking back at the firework display above. Method of execution – turned into pillar of salt. Gen.19:26
The firstborn of Egypt. Crime - being firstborn when God decided to show his strength. God hardened Pharoah's heart so he refused to let the Israelities go. Method of execution – The Angel of Death. Exodus 12:29
The Egyptian army. Crime - refusing to disobey orders to pursue said Israelites. Method of execution – drowned when the Red Sea returned. Exodus 14:28
Er. Crime - "wicked in the sight of the Lord". Method of execution - not specified. Gen.38:7.
Onan. Crime - Disobeying God's orders to impregnate his dead brother's wife. Method of execution - not specified. Gen.38:10. (unlucky family)
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families). Crime – challenging Moses. Method of execution– buried alive, swallowed by the earth. Num.16:27 -32.
250 men. Crime – followers of Korah. Method of execution – burnt to death by fire from heaven. Num.16:35,
14,700 people. Crime - complaining about the previous two. Method of execution – plague. Num.16:49.
24,000 people. Crime – sexual immorality with Moabite women, worshiping Baal. Method of execution – plague. Num.25:9.
Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu. Crime - offering strange fire before the Lord. Method of execution – burnt to death by holy fire. Lev.10:1-3.
Either 70 or 50,070 men depending on the translation. Crime – looking into the ark. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Sam.6:19.
Nabal. Crime – being ungrateful to David. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Sam.25:38.
Uzzah. Crime – touching the ark to stop it falling. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Sam.6:6-7.
David and Bathsheba's baby boy. Crime – none, it was to punish David. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Sam.12:14-18
70,000 people. Crime – David held a census. Method of execution – plague. 2 Sam.24:13.
A prophet. Crime – believing another prophet. Method of execution – being killed by a lion. 1 Kg.13:1-24.
A man. Crime – refusing to strike a prophet when the prophet asked him to. Method of execution – being killed by a lion. 1 Kg.20:35-36.
Ahaziah. Crime - talking to the wrong God. Method of execution – did not leave his bed. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17.
102 soldiers. Crime – not talking nicely to Elisha. Method of execution - burnt to death by fire from heaven. 2 Kg.1:9-12.
42 youths. Crime – mocking Elisha's baldness. Method of execution – God sent bears to kill them. 2 Kg.2:23-24.
Some foreigners. Crime – not worshiping God. Method of execution - God sent lions to kill them. 2 Kg.17:25-26.
185,000 soldiers. Crime – being at war with Israel. Method of execution – the angel of the lord killed them while they slept. 2 Kg.19:35.
Saul. Crime – unfaithful to the lord. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Chr.10:14
Jeroboam. Crime – rebellion against Abijah. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Chr.13:20,
Jehoram. Crime – doing evil in the sight of the lord. Method of execution – God made his bowels fall out. 2 Chr.21:14-19.
Ananias and Sapphira. Crime - Deceit. (Pretending they sold their land for less than they did, so that they could pretend to give all the money to the church, when in reality they kept a nice bit of their money to themselves.) Method of execution – not specified, perhaps heart attack. Acts 5:1-10. (
Personally, I can't support a deity that's essentially a mass murderer--no better than a Stalin. He killed the firstborn children of Egypt because Pharoah wouldn't allow the Israelities to be freed--even though it was God who hardened Pharoah's heart so that he wouldn't let the Israelities leave. He drowned most of the population of Earth, more than likely which included women and children, because they were all somehow evil. He killed two entire cities, because they displeased him, along with thousands, if not millions of others.


Wow, clever. Did you copy and paste all this, or did you take the time to search the Bible yourself?

What, exactly, do you hope to do get out of your post? Do you think that the Christians here will be somehow swayed by the information that you have posted or that they somehow do not know the scriptures well enough to have learned all that for themselves?

[optrader]

Does Muhammed count as a savior?

No.

Because a billion Muslims do not believe that Jesus was divine. (To say nothing of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, etc...)

Taking into account the entirety of humanity that has lived and died since Christ lived, a very miniscule number of people accept Him as divine. I'm gladly in the minority.

[SaintVegas]

On September 11th 2001 God did not protect many people who chose to live by the rules.

Or if you keep with your line of thinking that God does eventually take out those who are against him maybe Muslims are right and they were enacting divine justice to those who were not following God's rules.

It is so easy to justify violence or divine wrath when one person thinks they are on the same side that God is on.

It's so interesting to see all the people here who understand the mind and will of God. :rolleyes:

[SaintVegas]

So, since God can kill his creations for not listening to a command about something as trivial as that, if I have children, and I tell themto do something, and they don't do it, is it my right to kill them? I gave them fair warning, and they are my creation after all.

Sorry to bring this to your attention, but you are not God. Not only that, but you (as well as all of his other children) are commanded not to judge in this way.

[Thor]

Taking into account the entirety of humanity that has lived and died since Christ lived, a very miniscule number of people accept Him as divine. I'm gladly in the minority.

And you believe that you can't get to heaven unless you believe Jesus was divine?

[AutoRacer55]

5th commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

Is it just me, or are we to support a God that breaks his own rules?

[optrader]

And you believe that you can't get to heaven unless you believe Jesus was divine?


Jesus is the son of God, and in fact is the creator, as such, he is certainly divine. I accept His word that by no other name is salvation gained. There are people that accept that a person named Jesus existed. Some accept Him as a religious teacher or philosopher. It is not this aspect of Him that allowed his death on the cross to save us. It is because of His divinity, if you reject His divinity, you have nothing to call upon...

[optrader]

5th commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

Is it just me, or are we to support a God that breaks his own rules?


If you killed someone, and then could raise them from the dead, just as they were before you killed them, are you accountable for murder?

[SaintVegas]

5th commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

Is it just me, or are we to support a God that breaks his own rules?

God said that to us, not to Himself.

God understands all things from the beginning. He sees the whole picture in a way that we never can.

[F9thRet]

On September 11th 2001 God did not protect many people who chose to live by the rules.

Or if you keep with your line of thinking that God does eventually take out those who are against him maybe Muslims are right and they were enacting divine justice to those who were not following God's rules.

It is so easy to justify violence or divine wrath when one person thinks they are on the same side that God is on.


Protect them? Hell he probably took them to heaven. Who wouldn't want that? (Present company in this thread excluded.)

So many people seem to think Life is the ultimate reward. I can hardly wait to die, so I can be at peace, and not have to deal with the BS here on Earth. and no, I'm not suicidal or anything, But man when the day comes, I'll be one happy little Rancher.

Stephen

[AutoRacer55]

If you killed someone, and then could raise them from the dead, just as they were before you killed them, are you accountable for murder?

Yes, because you still killed them in the first place.

[optrader]

Yes, because you still killed them in the first place.

Somehow, I don't think a jury would see it that way.

Prosecutor: Ladies and gentlemen, the accused is guilty of the murder of John Smith...
Defense: Ladies and gentlemen, John Smith is alive and well and there he is... (pointing to John Smith)

:think: x12

[Samm]

5th commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

Is it just me, or are we to support a God that breaks his own rules?

The actual 5th Commandment is "Thou shalt not murder."

Killing is sanctioned all through the Old Testament.

[notluzn]

Thou shalt scare your children of a horrible death "Rev"

[mgifford]

Your point?

My point is that I said God did kill a lot of people in the OT, when Jesus came He went to the Cross for all our sins and He did all the dying for us.

[I am the Eggman]

How many warning did the Egyptians get and was death the first thing that happened or was it the very last after there had been other attempts?

The Egyptians got no warnings. Pharaoh got warnings. He wasn't punnished, his subjects were. They had no say. So your god picked on the helpless when he could have struck down Pharaoh and fixed it right away. Then he kills the children of the helpless, and only then does he indirectly get at Pharoh by killing his son, who had no say in anything either.

Not only was it a terribly inefficient way of going about it, but it was a pretty sick way to try and convince Pharoh in the first place.

[I am the Eggman]

If you killed someone, and then could raise them from the dead, just as they were before you killed them, are you accountable for murder?

Attempted murder. There have been several "angel of death" cases where they gave drugs that caused heart attacks or poisonings and they revived their own victims. They went away for a long time.

[Clintville]

People complain when God doesn't do anything about evil and complain when he does.
Killing a bunch of kids because their parents' leader didn't let some slaves go is pretty messed up. If it really happened, people are pretty justified in having a problem with it.

[Clintville]

Somehow, I don't think a jury would see it that way.

Prosecutor: Ladies and gentlemen, the accused is guilty of the murder of John Smith...
Defense: Ladies and gentlemen, John Smith is alive and well and there he is... (pointing to John Smith)

:think: x12
Well, you do have to take into account that in this hypothetical world, a person can be resurrected from the dead.

Though what is your point? God didn't resurrect any of those people, so it doesn't matter if he could.

[Gabby]

Well, what about Revelation--the seven plagues that will be unleashed on the Earth?

The way it's been explained to me is that the 'life' that God is concerned with is the life of our soul, not the life of our physical body. A person whose physical body dies is not dead, their soul lives on. God can and will reward them as He feels is appropriate.

Perhaps those innocents who died on 9/11 have been rewarded many times over in the next 'life'.

I think of hell not as a place put a state of being.. or rather non-being. It's bascially soul death.

What looks like cruelty to us mortals, might not be cruel but just a passing of stages. Who knows.

What about wherein Jesus said he has not come to bring peace but a sword, to separate families from one another?
This is an interesting verse that I think many do not understand. The sword is metaphorical. It means that living by the teachings of Christ will cause strife even in families. Basically if a person lives a truly moral life and shuns the immoral there are some even in their family who will not like it and it will cause strife.

I’ve seen this play out in my family. Well in many families. When a person stands by what is right morally the family will often turn on them. It often takes a strong person to stand up for what is right and to not go along with the status quo just to disturb the ‘order’.

[Mobulis]

If you killed someone, and then could raise them from the dead, just as they were before you killed them, are you accountable for murder?


Yep the fact that they're back in no way negates the fact that you killed them.

[Gabby]

To create eveil, one must be evil.
In the bible Satan created evil of his own free will. Other angels ‘fell’ by choosing to join Satan.

[Gabby]

Except that God says clear as day:
Exodus 9:34-10:2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?NIV_version=yes&passage=Exodus+9:34-10:2):
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD." and Exodus 10:20


Exodus 10:20 (New International Version)
20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
The point in all of this is that God was serving a greater good... in that He was looking to establish a chosen people. Being able to demonstrate that He is God was necessary.

Sure the Egyptians suffered for this. But they were the enemy of the 'chosen people'. In war people die.

[Gabby]

Nature, or natural causes, kills and injures people all the time. Does this mean that nature is evil? Or does it mean that nature follows laws that are bigger than the wants and desires of humans?

[BrittleBullet]

5th commandment: Thou shalt not kill.

Is it just me, or are we to support a God that breaks his own rules?

It's good to be the king.

[BrittleBullet]

In the bible Satan created evil of his own free will. Other angels ‘fell’ by choosing to join Satan.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

[Mobulis]

The point in all of this is that God was serving a greater good... in that He was looking to establish a chosen people. Being able to demonstrate that He is God was necessary.

Sure the Egyptians suffered for this. But they were the enemy of the 'chosen people'. In war people die.

So god DOESN'T love everyone equally.

[PredFan]

I just love it when people who don't believe in God or don't believe that the Bible is true, will use the Bible to their wishes.

If you don't believe that the Bible is the truth then you don't believe God did those things and then your OP is moot.

[Floydian]

Why did God create the flood? What kind of being drowns their own children?

[LouC]

Was reading a site, and these are some of the murders committed by God in the Bible:


Every human and animal on earth that wasn't on Noah's Ark. Crime - being evil. Method of execution - drowning.
The cities of Sodom and Gommorah. Crime – being evil (or possibly homosexual). Method of execution – burnt to death by burning sulfur from heaven. Cruel and unusual.
Lot’s wife. Crime - looking back at the firework display above. Method of execution – turned into pillar of salt. Gen.19:26
The firstborn of Egypt. Crime - being firstborn when God decided to show his strength. God hardened Pharoah's heart so he refused to let the Israelities go. Method of execution – The Angel of Death. Exodus 12:29
The Egyptian army. Crime - refusing to disobey orders to pursue said Israelites. Method of execution – drowned when the Red Sea returned. Exodus 14:28
Er. Crime - "wicked in the sight of the Lord". Method of execution - not specified. Gen.38:7.
Onan. Crime - Disobeying God's orders to impregnate his dead brother's wife. Method of execution - not specified. Gen.38:10. (unlucky family)
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families). Crime – challenging Moses. Method of execution– buried alive, swallowed by the earth. Num.16:27 -32.
250 men. Crime – followers of Korah. Method of execution – burnt to death by fire from heaven. Num.16:35,
14,700 people. Crime - complaining about the previous two. Method of execution – plague. Num.16:49.
24,000 people. Crime – sexual immorality with Moabite women, worshiping Baal. Method of execution – plague. Num.25:9.
Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu. Crime - offering strange fire before the Lord. Method of execution – burnt to death by holy fire. Lev.10:1-3.
Either 70 or 50,070 men depending on the translation. Crime – looking into the ark. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Sam.6:19.
Nabal. Crime – being ungrateful to David. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Sam.25:38.
Uzzah. Crime – touching the ark to stop it falling. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Sam.6:6-7.
David and Bathsheba's baby boy. Crime – none, it was to punish David. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Sam.12:14-18
70,000 people. Crime – David held a census. Method of execution – plague. 2 Sam.24:13.
A prophet. Crime – believing another prophet. Method of execution – being killed by a lion. 1 Kg.13:1-24.
A man. Crime – refusing to strike a prophet when the prophet asked him to. Method of execution – being killed by a lion. 1 Kg.20:35-36.
Ahaziah. Crime - talking to the wrong God. Method of execution – did not leave his bed. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17.
102 soldiers. Crime – not talking nicely to Elisha. Method of execution - burnt to death by fire from heaven. 2 Kg.1:9-12.
42 youths. Crime – mocking Elisha's baldness. Method of execution – God sent bears to kill them. 2 Kg.2:23-24.
Some foreigners. Crime – not worshiping God. Method of execution - God sent lions to kill them. 2 Kg.17:25-26.
185,000 soldiers. Crime – being at war with Israel. Method of execution – the angel of the lord killed them while they slept. 2 Kg.19:35.
Saul. Crime – unfaithful to the lord. Method of execution – not specified. 1 Chr.10:14
Jeroboam. Crime – rebellion against Abijah. Method of execution – not specified. 2 Chr.13:20,
Jehoram. Crime – doing evil in the sight of the lord. Method of execution – God made his bowels fall out. 2 Chr.21:14-19.
Ananias and Sapphira. Crime - Deceit. (Pretending they sold their land for less than they did, so that they could pretend to give all the money to the church, when in reality they kept a nice bit of their money to themselves.) Method of execution – not specified, perhaps heart attack. Acts 5:1-10. (
Personally, I can't support a deity that's essentially a mass murderer--no better than a Stalin. He killed the firstborn children of Egypt because Pharoah wouldn't allow the Israelities to be freed--even though it was God who hardened Pharoah's heart so that he wouldn't let the Israelities leave. He drowned most of the population of Earth, more than likely which included women and children, because they were all somehow evil. He killed two entire cities, because they displeased him, along with thousands, if not millions of others.

Who knew?

God is pro-choice.

Pro-choice in reserving the right to destroy that which he created.

[I am the Eggman]

Introducing: the End User. Even a "perfect" program will fall apart or generate bad results if a sufficiently inept user is working with it. Garbage in, garbage out.

Remember, I have suggested that the free will of human beings exists outside of God. He didn't make it, it just "is" in the same way that God just "is". Co-eternal. Because God did not make it, he cannot be blamed for it's flaws.

So we cannot blame God for our mistakes. He didn't make our free will. He just harnessed it and have it a vessel to work with, crafting souls and bodies.

So you'll have us believe that your god created the universe and everything in it, including making man in his own image, and at the same time, free will that he didn't create or grant to man somehow slipped past him?

If things exist outside of your god it doesn't make him much of a god. It makes him more of a bad engineer that didn't control the design parameters very well and what he designed had a ton of unintended consequences.

[notluzn]

Why did God create the flood? What kind of being drowns their own children?He didn't! It was local flooding and people died like they did with Katrina. Don't believe the world flooded.

[mgifford]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydian
Why did God create the flood? What kind of being drowns their own children?

Abortionists!

[Mobulis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydian
Why did God create the flood? What kind of being drowns their own children?

Abortionists!

Not after its born.

[DRS]

Why did God create the flood? What kind of being drowns their own children?


Doesn't man practice the death penalty?

Doesn't man wage wars and kill those on the opposite side?

[mgifford]

Not after its born.

I must beg your pardon. In cases of "botched" abortions, the doctors/nurses go ahead and kill the baby, which is still alive after the botched abortion. Read the news lately about abortionists?

[BrittleBullet]

Doesn't man practice the death penalty?

Doesn't man wage wars and kill those on the opposite side?

God in His supposed infinite wisdom and omnipotence should have no need to use those humans forms of punishing criminals and other nations.

[DRS]

God in His supposed infinite wisdom and omnipotence should have no need to use those humans forms of punishing criminals and other nations.

Oh and in your opinion how showed God deal with those who do not wish to live under the rule of law and who wish to torment those who do?

[Mobulis]

I must beg your pardon. In cases of "botched" abortions, the doctors/nurses go ahead and kill the baby, which is still alive after the botched abortion. Read the news lately about abortionists?

That should not be done.

[mgifford]

That should not be done.

Well, abortions shouldn't be done in the first place. Did you hear the story on the news, where a nurse saw a botched abortion baby which had been thrown over onto a linen pile alive, with filthy, nasty, bloody linen from surgeries and abortions? She took the BABY into a linen closet and caressed it until it finally died! My friend, we'll have a lot to explain to God for on "Judgement Day".

A 13 year old (at the time) said that "Tiller The Baby Killer" gave her a saline solution shot, then told her to go into the bathroom and sit on the toilet. She said "I sat down on the toilet and it wasn't long before I pooped my baby into the toilet (like a pile of refuse, my addition) then I went home".

I guess over the years we've deteriorated so deeply into "hellish works" that something like this is OK for us to do. God Help Us!

[Clintville]

Doesn't man practice the death penalty?

Those guys, at least in our country, typically have done pretty bad things.

[Clintville]

Oh and in your opinion how showed God deal with those who do not wish to live under the rule of law and who wish to torment those who do?
Well, for one he could kill the person that is causing the problem instead of a bunch of innocent children.

[DRS]

Those guys, at least in our country, typically have done pretty bad things.

When the Earth was flooded it was filled with violence, so much so they had ruined the Earth

[DRS]

Well, for one he could kill the person that is causing the problem instead of a bunch of innocent children.

Or those parents could have listened to Noah and gone ontot he ark, should Noah have gone around stealing the children from the parents?

You seem to want to blame God instead of parents for what happens to children, you do the same with crack babes also?

[Clintville]

Or those parents could have listened to Noah and gone ontot he ark, should Noah have gone around stealing the children from the parents?
I was talking about Egypt and the first born sons being murdered.

But killing a bunch of kids because their parents were jerks is still evil.

You seem to want to blame God instead of parents for what happens to children, you do the same with crack babes also?
If God directly killed the babies, yes.

[DRS]

Again in Egypt the parents were warned ahead of time what was to happen, besides God watched as His firstborn was put to death by us. Besides since the many of the parents later bought it, it may have been better than leaving them on their own.

God warned them they ignored it. I am sorry that parental resposiblity seems so hard for you to grasp, 9 times before this God demostrated to all Egypt that he would do as He said and there was a way to avoid it.

[Clintville]

Again in Egypt the parents were warned ahead of time what was to happen, besides God watched as His firstborn was put to death by us. Besides since the many of the parents later bought it, it may have been better than leaving them on their own.

God warned them they ignored it. I am sorry that parental resposiblity seems so hard for you to grasp, 9 times before this God demostrated to all Egypt that he would do as He said and there was a way to avoid it.
Again, he is killing kids to make a point to the parents, which by that is trying to make a point to the Pharaoh. How can you not grasp that that is both screwed up and illogical? Couldn't God get the slaves out of their without killing any innocents (and children at that)?

And Egypt was full of thousands of people, were they all aware that the plagues had to do with God and Moses? They didn't believe in God for one.

[DRS]

How many times did God warn Pharaoh?

Was the pharaoh or Egypt really worried about their children?

You know if you are going to complain about something read the account first, some plagues affected only the Egptians so all Egypt knew something was going on

[Clintville]

Either way, seems God could have done something that wouldn't end with a bunch of kids being killed.

[DRS]

It did not bother the Egyptians to put the sons of the Jews to death, do unto others as you would have done to you

[Clintville]

It did not bother the Egyptians to put the sons of the Jews to death, do unto others as you would have done to you
I don't think the kids had much of a say in that. And that logic doesn't seem very Christian.

[DRS]

The Egyptians had a choice in what they did and there is nothing in what I said that conflicts with what is taught in the bible.

Jesus said as you sow, so shall you reap.

[Clintville]

The Egyptians had a choice in what they did and there is nothing in what I said that conflicts with what is taught in the bible.

Again then, why did God kill those that had nothing to do with it?

Also, what about the Book of Job? God is kind of a jerk in that too. And this is a guy that was totally good.

[optrader]

Well, you do have to take into account that in this hypothetical world, a person can be resurrected from the dead.

Though what is your point? God didn't resurrect any of those people, so it doesn't matter if he could.

My point is, it is Gods prerogative to be judge, jury and executioner if the case calls for it. We humans can't correct any mistakes we make in the process. God doesn't make mistakes, His judgement is perfect every time, but hypothetically, if He accidently put someone to death, he could undo it.

You don't know none of these people weren't resurrected. This is what you believe. I believe they haven't been resurrected yet, but should any righteous have been killed by "accident", when they are resurrected, they will not complain about their mortal life possibly being cut short.

[optrader]

Attempted murder. There have been several "angel of death" cases where they gave drugs that caused heart attacks or poisonings and they revived their own victims. They went away for a long time.


God doesn't "attempt murder." Rest assured, if He wants you dead, you are dead. If He wants you dead, you deserve to be dead.

In your angel of death scenario, which I have never heard of, did the attempted murderers change their mind because they had a change of heart, or did the possible punishment they would receive play a part? Bear in mind, we, as individuals do not get to make judgements that someone deserves to die. God does.