But, who are the Conservatives?

[peter45]

But, who are the Conservatives?

The other night Bill O’Reilly and others on FOX were elated to report that those calling themselves Conservatives outnumbered those calling themselves Liberals by 2 to 1.

They did not, however, offer any explanation as to how that report reconciles with the results of the last election.

The simple explanation, of course, is that not all Conservatives bow down to the FOX definition of “conservative”.
Instead, maybe the majority of genuine Conservatives believe that the self-appointed “leaders” of “conservatism” don’t speak for the genuine Conservatives.
Maybe they believe that the FOX definition of “conservatism” is part of the problem, not the solution.

[johnrocks]

I think it was you a couple years ago that stated something that has stuck in my head since(if not then I apologize), anyway it was something along the lines of "there aren't that many neo conservatives but there are millions of followers", I think you hit the nail on the head if that was you who stated that.

[johnrocks]

I bring that up Peter because I think your right, FOX news and the GOP doesn't speak for all conservatives, I was called a "staunch conservative" thirty years ago, now I'm called a kook by my own Party.

[WorldWatcher]

I bring that up Peter because I think your right, FOX news and the GOP doesn't speak for all conservatives, I was called a "staunch conservative" thirty years ago, now I'm called a kook by my own Party.


JR,

It's not just the party that calls you a kook.



:mrgreen:


>>>>

[johnrocks]

JR,

It's not just the party that calls you a kook.



:mrgreen:


>>>>

:)) You wouldn't going to pass on my slow pitch down the center were you:))

[jimjames418]

But, who are the Conservatives?
Labels don't mean much any more. The labels of conservative and liberal have been so basterdized over the last few years that they no longer have any meaning. Just like Republican and Democrat have no meaning.

You have to look and know what the person stands for, and make up your own mind if they are conservative or liberal.

In broad terms a conservative believes in small government, low taxes, and a free market and a liberal believes in large government, high taxes, and a strictly regulated market.

Many other things come into play also, but if you get those three right, you can put an accurate label on the person. IMHO of course.

[WorldWatcher]

:)) You wouldn't going to pass on my slow pitch down the center were you:))


Sorry dude, when you hang one out there like ya gotta know someone is going to take a swing.


:)) :))


>>>>

[peter45]

Labels don't mean much any more. The labels of conservative and liberal have been so basterdized over the last few years that they no longer have any meaning. Just like Republican and Democrat have no meaning.

You have to look and know what the person stands for, and make up your own mind if they are conservative or liberal.

In broad terms a conservative believes in small government, low taxes, and a free market and a liberal believes in large government, high taxes, and a strictly regulated market.

Many other things come into play also, but if you get those three right, you can put an accurate label on the person. IMHO of course.



But is that what they really believe in, if it produces the type of economic disaster that we have recently seen?

Conservatives have seen their well planned futures completely blown out of the water. Is a Conservative going to simply say; “Well that is just the way it is supposed to be in a free market?”

Do genuine Conservatives believe that every few years their lives will be thrown into a turmoil?

Or, do genuine Conservatives believe that life does not need to be one disaster after another?

[peter45]

I think it was you a couple years ago that stated something that has stuck in my head since(if not then I apologize), anyway it was something along the lines of "there aren't that many neo conservatives but there are millions of followers", I think you hit the nail on the head if that was you who stated that.





I don’t know if I said that, but I agree with it.

And what I really don’t know is if a genuine Conservative gives a hoot about gay marriage.

Or if FOX just keeps telling the “conservatives” that they do care about the issue.
And if FOX keeps telling the “conservatives” that they care about gay marriage much more that they care about Credit Default Swaps.

[WorldWatcher]

You have to look and know what the person stands for, and make up your own mind if they are conservative or liberal.

In broad terms a conservative believes in small government, low taxes, and a free market and a liberal believes in large government, high taxes, and a strictly regulated market.

Many other things come into play also, but if you get those three right, you can put an accurate label on the person. IMHO of course.


Depends on how you want to define "conservative".


I'm for small government, low taxes, and a free market. I do not believe in maximum individual liberty and that the government should have a compelling interest for discrimination between two similar groups. Because of this I support equal treatment under the law for law abiding, consenting adult, infertile same-sex couples as compared to law abiding, consenting adult, infertile different-sex couples.


Small Government - Check
Low Taxes - Check
Free Market - Check
Individual Liberty - Check
Personal Responsibility - Check
Strong Defense - Check
Imposition of Morality through the government - uncheck



Which am I?



Remember it was Barry Goldwater who said he would fight every step of the way against those who attempted to dictate moral convictions for all Americans in the name of "conservatism".



>>>>

[johnrocks]

I believe in max. Liberty too WW, it seems that Goldwater conservatism is just suppressed but still very much alive.

[jimjames418]

Depends on how you want to define "conservative".


I'm for small government, low taxes, and a free market. I do not believe in maximum individual liberty and that the government should have a compelling interest for discrimination between two similar groups. Because of this I support equal treatment under the law for law abiding, consenting adult, infertile same-sex couples as compared to law abiding, consenting adult, infertile different-sex couples.


Small Government - Check
Low Taxes - Check
Free Market - Check
Individual Liberty - Check
Personal Responsibility - Check
Strong Defense - Check
Imposition of Morality through the government - uncheck



Which am I?



Remember it was Barry Goldwater who said he would fight every step of the way against those who attempted to dictate moral convictions for all Americans in the name of "conservatism".



>>>>
You are a conservative. You may not vote conservative if you have brought into the lies that liberals have told.

My beliefs are in line with yours. I have always considered myself a Goldwater conservative. ;)

I think where you and I may disagree. I am all for getting the government out of the marriage business. Civil unions by the government, marriage for the religious population.

[optrader]

I don’t know if I said that, but I agree with it.

And what I really don’t know is if a genuine Conservative gives a hoot about gay marriage.

Or if FOX just keeps telling the “conservatives” that they do care about the issue.
And if FOX keeps telling the “conservatives” that they care about gay marriage much more that they care about Credit Default Swaps.

We care about anything that undermines the will of God. Such things that undermine the will of God, such as gay marriage, always undermine what is best for society.

I will, for the record, admit that conservatives have done little to uphold the will of God either. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Both parties have sold us down the river, just in different ways...

[johnrocks]

Conservatism isn't about God, you can be as liberal as Ted Kennedy and be a Christian, we supposed to stand by the Constitution,not the Bible when we govern.

[mgifford]

Well, we're the ones who have kept a love affair with America going for many years. We're the ones who haven't found socialism to be tolerable for Americans. "We're the ones who have fought for and have died for the Constitution of The Unites States".

We're the ones who have also fought and died to keep communism out of our country, (remember N. Korea, Vietnam?) especially our schools, but liberals have wanted it and will eventually have it...lock stock and barrel. The liberals want socialism (which is no different to me from communism) and they will have it, they simply lean further and further toward it every day.

[optrader]

[QUOTE]Conservatism isn't about God, you can be as liberal as Ted Kennedy and be a Christian,

I'm not politically correct enough to buy this... (truthfully, there isn't a microscopic trace of political correctness in me.)

"Ye shall know them by their fruits."

we supposed to stand by the Constitution,not the Bible when we govern.

The Constitution, like most of our founding documents, was written in a time and by people who had a firm belief in and understanding of God. I am a firm believer in liberty of conscience, but the Christian influence on the founding of our country has had a profound effect on our society. I believe our problems are a direct result of turning from God.

[johnrocks]

They may have had a firm understanding of God but that didn't mean they felt the need to interject his word into everything political. Our problems can be traced to turning from the Constitution,imho. You can't legislate people's morality,what thet feel, Christianity is in the heart,not the Halls of Congress!

[peter45]

Conservatism isn't about God, you can be as liberal as Ted Kennedy and be a Christian, we supposed to stand by the Constitution,not the Bible when we govern.



But back to my original point.

Does genuine Conservatism insist on pushing morality into government?

Or does FOX “conservatism” use it as a ploy to diminish the electorate’s concern about Credit Default Swaps?

And have a large number of genuine Conservatives recognized the ploy? Thus the large number of people claiming to be Conservative, but the results of the last election seemingly to be to the Liberal side?

[johnrocks]

But back to my original point.

Does genuine Conservatism insist on pushing morality into government?

Or does FOX “conservatism” use it as a ploy to diminish the electorate’s concern about Credit Default Swaps?

And have a large number of genuine Conservatives recognized the ploy? Thus the large number of people claiming to be Conservative, but the results of the last election seemingly to be to the Liberal side?

I don't know about all that, we can focus on conservatism and leave credit default swaps out to debate another time as far as I'm concerned. Me personally, I want to keep my religious beliefs out of politics, I joined the GOP thinking it was a Party that consisted of Great Statesmen like Barry Goldwater and the lare and great Robert A. "Mr. Republican" Taft, I would have NEVER been one had the likes of George Bush, Lindsay Graham,John McCain, Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson were the faces of the Party back in 1979 when I registered.

That Party can get back toward that type conservatism or quite frankly.....they can kiss my ass, I'll vote insignificant 3rd Party until the last election I vote in before I EVER make the mistake of voting for someone like Bush again,much less his cronies!

[optrader]

They may have had a firm understanding of God but that didn't mean they felt the need to interject his word into everything political.

Ultimately, it was the rejection of God in the OT, when Gods' people demanded a king, so as to be like other nations, that has led to the decline of society. We humans, left to ourselves, tend to be rather selfish. It is very difficult to rule benevolently when your nature is selfish. Satan has had centuries to know our nature and devise means to turn us away from God. I agree, we would not be better off with a bunch of religious zealots ruling us, this too is not Gods' intent...

Our problems can be traced to turning from the Constitution,imho. You can't legislate people's morality,what thet feel,

Agreed, the Constitution is the best document ever conceived (outside of scripture) upon which to base a government. Yes, we need legislators and judges whon actually understand and support it!

Christianity is in the heart,not the Halls of Congress!


Absolutely! Sometimes I think God owes Sodom and Gomorah an apology for destroying them and yet being able to see down through time to our congress... God indeed works in mysterious ways!

[johnrocks]

Ultimately, it was the rejection of God in the OT, when Gods' people demanded a king, so as to be like other nations, that has led to the decline of society. We humans, left to ourselves, tend to be rather selfish. It is very difficult to rule benevolently when your nature is selfish. Satan has had centuries to know our nature and devise means to turn us away from God. I agree, we would not be better off with a bunch of religious zealots ruling us, this too is not Gods' intent...



Agreed, the Constitution is the best document ever conceived (outside of scripture) upon which to base a government. Yes, we need legislators and judges whon actually understand and support it!




Absolutely! Sometimes I think God owes Sodom and Gomorah an apology for destroying them and yet being able to see down through time to our congress... God indeed works in mysterious ways!

Don't misunderstand me, I believe in God however you and I may or may not have the same religious beliefs and neither will compromise, that makes a great Christian perhaps but not a great way to govern millions of people of various cultures and beliefs,imho.

[optrader]

Don't misunderstand me, I believe in God however you and I may or may not have the same religious beliefs and neither will compromise, that makes a great Christian perhaps but not a great way to govern millions of people of various cultures and beliefs,imho.

Agreed!

[peter45]

I don't know about all that, we can focus on conservatism and leave credit default swaps out to debate another time as far as I'm concerned. Me personally, I want to keep my religious beliefs out of politics, I joined the GOP thinking it was a Party that consisted of Great Statesmen like Barry Goldwater and the lare and great Robert A. "Mr. Republican" Taft, I would have NEVER been one had the likes of George Bush, Lindsay Graham,John McCain, Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson were the faces of the Party back in 1979 when I registered.

That Party can get back toward that type conservatism or quite frankly.....they can kiss my ass, I'll vote insignificant 3rd Party until the last election I vote in before I EVER make the mistake of voting for someone like Bush again,much less his cronies!



But, if you think about it, Goldwater, et al, were statesmen.

Bush, et al, are showmen.

Showmen fit into the FOX mold of a pantomime of “conservatism”. Statesmen would never get the first minute of television time. And politics IS television time, at least in the world of FOX.

Leading me back to my first observation – is FOX “conservatism” the solution, or really the problem?
And, have a sufficient number of genuine Conservatives recognized that media personalities should not be hailed as the leaders of political parties?

[johnrocks]

But, if you think about it, Goldwater, et al, were statesmen.

Bush, et al, are showmen.

Showmen fit into the FOX mold of a pantomime of “conservatism”. Statesmen would never get the first minute of television time. And politics IS television time, at least in the world of FOX.

Leading me back to my first observation – is FOX “conservatism” the solution, or really the problem?
And, have a sufficient number of genuine Conservatives recognized that media personalities should not be hailed as the leaders of political parties?

In one word....problem.

[optrader]

But, if you think about it, Goldwater, et al, were statesmen.

Bush, et al, are showmen.

Showmen fit into the FOX mold of a pantomime of “conservatism”. Statesmen would never get the first minute of television time. And politics IS television time, at least in the world of FOX.

Leading me back to my first observation – is FOX “conservatism” the solution, or really the problem?
And, have a sufficient number of genuine Conservatives recognized that media personalities should not be hailed as the leaders of political parties?

As our political leaders have done such a marvelous job, a better question should be: should the current political leaders of the parties be hailed as leaders of the parties??

Obama and Pelosi?? Obama is really another FDR? This naive, spineless wonder?
Pelosi? She should be relegated to political obscurity...

Ditto the republicans, who have abandoned the principles of conservatism.
Perhaps Newt Gingrich would actually uphold the conservative values of Reagan.

Rush Limbaugh does give the message of conservatism but by his own wise choice, he has no political aspirations. Conservatism is not defined by FOX, but they are the only network that even tries to present the conservative point of view.