Obama to Nationalize Public Schools?

[Monster_Mom_22]

Public education in the United States is broken.

American children spend less time in class covering fewer topics with less depth than children in many other nations.

American students are consistently outperformed by students from other nations in math and science, according to both the PISA and TIMMS assessments. American companies no longer look in America to find the best and brightest engineers and math minds. Fewer and fewer Americans are obtaining degrees in Science, Technology, Engineering, or Math (STEM).

American student literacy rates don't even rank among the top 20 nations according to PISA. The US ranks 17th in adult literacy rates. According to the Fordham Foundation, "two-thirds of US children attend schools in states with mediocre standards, or worse."

Yet, despite being routinely stomped by students from other countries on international assessments like the TIMMS and the PISA, student performance on state assessments and on The National Report Card show remarkable progress. Clearly, something is rotten in the state of public education.

But, what's the cause of the problem? Is it the teachers? The students? The parents? The instructional materials? All of the above?

There are those who say that in public education, content is king. That content is determined, for the most part, by the state standards. Each state has a list of standards that students are expected to meet for each subject in each grade. Textbook publishers provide instructional materials based on the state standards. Each state reviews textbooks and other instructional materials and identifies those which best match their state standards for local school districts to choose from.

Those state standards dictate what students learn, when they learn it, and how they learn it. If the state standard calls for students to study Mali culture in the 18th century in third grade, then that's what students are taught. If state standards don't mention long division or the standard algorithms, then students aren't taught those topics. It's the state standards that dictate the content.

That's about to change.

On June 1st the Common Core Initiative, which is backed by the Obama Administration, was announced. It's goal - to draft national academic standards which states could "voluntarily" adopt if they want to continue to receive federal funding for public education. The names and qualifications of those involved in drafting these so called "voluntary" standards are being kept secret, as are their deliberations. The first set of standards developed as a result of this initiative are set to be released on July 9th and the second batch is due several months later.

Secretary Duncan recently released $350 million in federal Recovery funds so that the initiative could develop a common national assessment which would be used to gauge how well students have learned the federally mandated standards.

As a result of this initiative, the federal government will dictate what American children learn, how they learn it, and when they learn it, and test our children to determine how well they learned what the federal government mandated they learn.

You may think that that's not such a bad thing, considering the relatively poor job the states are doing at teaching our nation's children. That uniform national standards would make it easier for children to move from one area to another. That those developing the standards must be wise and gifted in their respective fields.

Thus far only one name associated with the initiative has been leaked. The individual is supposed to be leading the effort to draft mathematics standards, and he's an English Major. He's been involved in writing state standards for years - those same state standards the Fordham Foundation said were mediocre in 2/3 of our nation's schools. The mathematicians, engineers, and scientists I'm familiar with, who believe that fuzzy math is one of the primary reasons our kids can no longer "do math", haven't been included in the effort. The English Major reportedly leading the math effort, is a lifelong advocate of fuzzy math.

Several years ago President Bush convened a similar committee - the National Math Advisory Panel. Unlike the Common Core Initiative, the NMAP included a mix of educators, mathematicians, scientists, and a couple of politicians. The members of the Panel and their qualifications were a matter of public record. The panel's deliberations were taped and open to the public. Their final report, which was issued slightly more than a year ago, included a number of recommendations which states were encouraged to reflect within their own standards.

The secrecy and mandatory nature of the Common Core Initiative is concerning to me. I'm a big believer that transparency and accountability are good things; that secrecy breeds mistrust. How am I supposed to believe that the standards the Common Core Initiative develops and mandates for my kids will make things better, when the initiative's existence was classified until just a few weeks ago and the only person rumored to be involved has been behind fuzzy math and crummy state standards for decades?

Think private schools are safe? Think again. States are increasingly requiring private schools which accept state funded vouchers or grants to adhere to the state mandated curricula.

Think homeschooling is safe? Think again. In the past year the State of California attempted to effect laws which made homeschooling practically illegal and in North Carolina a judge ruled in a divorce case that two children should be forced to attend public school against their mother's wishes so that they would be better rounded.

Forget the 10th Amendment, this thing is happening whether we like it or not. But maybe with public pressure the veil of secrecy will be lifted and the citizens of this country will be allowed to have a say. That will only happen if people start talking about it, and no one is talking about it.

Sources:
http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13825184

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment

www.stemedcaucus.org/content/documents/TalkingPoints.doc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009082.pdf

http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/mathpanel/index.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/31/AR2009053102339.html

http://www.edexcellence.net/flypaper/index.php/2009/06/arne-ups-the-ante-on-national-standards/

http://www.ccsso.org/federal_programs/13286.cfm

http://jaypgreene.com/2009/06/09/the-national-standards-sausage-making/

[Impenitent]

and you thought no child left behind was bad...

the tyrants are on the march...

[chris13]

Ah, another example of the transparency we were promised.

Actually I've always thought that national standards would be a good thing. However, we need to use standards that are high, like those of New York, instead of standards that are incredibly low, like those of Mississippi.

[Monster_Mom_22]

You need to look California, Indiana, and Massachusetts for high standards. New York was 4th on the list with Georgia and Virginia following close behind (this is according to the Fordham Foundation)

Maine, Michigan, Missouri, New Hampshire, Arkansas, Connecticut, Florida, Washington, Wisconsin, Alaska, Hawaii, Montana, and Wyoming are ranked among the lowest.

http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/State%20of%20State%20Standards2006FINAL.pdf

[RWReaganfan]

The problem is that these standards already exist and are the source for many of the state standards. For example, Florida's math standards are almost a carbon copy of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics.

Why reinvent the wheel?

[ronuva]

Federal standards for schools from the same people who brought us the Post office, Amtrak, Indian Reservations and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is a recipe for disaster. Then FEMA could come in and add it's expertise! No wonder they are keeping it secret!

[Safiel]

There is simply no reason for the Federal Government to be involved in education at all. It is not a power delegated to the Federal Government, therefore it is a state responsibility. Any Federal involvement is unconstitutional. Standards can be developed privately, by many of the existing educational organizations. Small local districts and and should have wide leeway to apply what works best for their district.

[Monster_Mom_22]

The problem is that these standards already exist and are the source for many of the state standards. For example, Florida's math standards are almost a carbon copy of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics.

Why reinvent the wheel?

Perhaps because the math is missing from the NCTM standards? Although, if Florida's standards are almost a carbon copy of the NCTM standards then that explains why Florida received an F score from Fordham for their math standards.

http://www.edexcellence.net/detail/news.cfm?news_id=358&id=130

http://www.nychold.com/art-ocken-07a.html

http://www.wgquirk.com/#reform

[RWReaganfan]

Perhaps because the math is missing from the NCTM standards? Although, if Florida's standards are almost a carbon copy of the NCTM standards then that explains why Florida received an F score from Fordham for their math standards.

http://www.edexcellence.net/detail/news.cfm?news_id=358&id=130

http://www.nychold.com/art-ocken-07a.html

http://www.wgquirk.com/#reform

Interesting. You cite three sources and I reviewed all three. The first two obviously hate the NCTM. However, I would like to address a problem with the third source. Read about the writers experience and tell me what is missing?

"Bill Quirk is a graduate of Dartmouth College and holds a Ph.D. in Mathematics from The New Mexico State University. Over a span of 8 years, he taught 26 different courses in math and computer science at Penn State, Northern Illinois University, and Jacksonville University. "

Give up?

The man NEVER taught a K-12 class! That is like having a nuclear engineer repairing your refrigerator!

I think if you are going to ask someone what should be taught in math K-12 you just MIGHT want to ask the K-12 teachers for their inputs. That is what the NCTM is: math teachers.

Also, the man has 8 years experience teaching college. I have 13 years experience in grades 6-12 schools. Who know math the best? Undoubtedly, he does. Who knows best how to teach math? That remains to be seen.

[Safiel]

Personally, I went with Saxon and the old school style of teaching math. Much of the problem with math is just not in the standards themselves, but in the fact that garbage methods are being used to try to achieve those standards. "New" math. "Fuzzy" math. Garbage methods that have destroyed math achievement in this country. Go back to traditional old school methods that worked.

I have been doing some Wikipedia editing on the "Pennsylvania" project, among other things editing the Pennsylvania School District article. There are five hundred school districts in Pennsylvania using a wide variety of methods. I am gratified to see that numerous districts have gone back to Saxon. The National Organizations haven't figured it out yet, but glad to see some of the locals have.

[AmericanSpirit]

Ugh...this is going to make No Child Left Behind look like a cakewalk.

[vir doctus]

It's goal - to draft national academic standards which states could "voluntarily" adopt if they want to continue to receive federal funding for public education.

Seems like there is an easy solution... :think:

[Monster_Mom_22]

Interesting. You cite three sources and I reviewed all three. The first two obviously hate the NCTM.

The first is from the Fordham Foundation. I'm not sure they have much beef with the NCTM, they just have a beef with mediocre state standards. They're the ones who gave Florida an "F".

However, I would like to address a problem with the third source. Read about the writers experience and tell me what is missing?

"Bill Quirk is a graduate of Dartmouth College and holds a Ph.D. in Mathematics from The New Mexico State University. Over a span of 8 years, he taught 26 different courses in math and computer science at Penn State, Northern Illinois University, and Jacksonville University. "

Give up?

The man NEVER taught a K-12 class! That is like having a nuclear engineer repairing your refrigerator!

Wow - so you'd have a refrigerator that works and could generate power to fuel your home and the houses up and down the block! Awesome!!!

I think if you are going to ask someone what should be taught in math K-12 you just MIGHT want to ask the K-12 teachers for their inputs. That is what the NCTM is: math teachers.

I never said that math teachers should be excluded. All I asked was that mathematicians, the people who understand the topic best and know what skills children need to succeed in math dependent fields like engineering, should also be included. I find it amazing that the NCTM consistently seeks to degrade mathematicians. Why is that? Why are they so defensive? Why do they get so angry when parents and college professors state that encouraging kids to use calculators in kindergarten and requiring them as early as 3rd grade undermines their ability to grasp mathematical concepts and pursue higher math in high school and college?

I can no longer count the number of times I've heard teachers stand up and state, with no shame whatsoever, that they didn't get math in school. That long division was too much for them. Heck, I've even heard them state that subtraction was really really complicated. Know what - if you didn't get math in school, if long division and subtraction were challenging, then education is probably not your best career choice. Certainly not elementary education.

It's the NCTM, BTW, which is pushing calculators on kinds in elementary school and encouraging schools to stop teaching math facts to mastery because calculators make such knowledge irrelevant.

The NCTE doesn't encourage teachers to dump spelling because spell check makes spelling irrelevant. Or to dump grammar because grammar check makes knowing it irrelevant. That's because spelling and grammar are basic foundations skills every person needs to succeed.

Well the same exists with math. Math facts and the ability to solve complex addition, subtraction, multiplication, and long division problems with ease are basic foundational skills every child needs to succeed in math.

I can't imagine drafting standards for the history of the Revolutionary war without consulting with Revolutionary war historians. How about knocking the defensive chip off your shoulder and recognizing that the only way to set reasonable expectations for students is if everyone has an equal say.

[RWReaganfan]

The first is from the Fordham Foundation. I'm not sure they have much beef with the NCTM, they just have a beef with mediocre state standards. They're the ones who gave Florida an "F".



Wow - so you'd have a refrigerator that works and could generate power to fuel your home and the houses up and down the block! Awesome!!!



I never said that math teachers should be excluded. All I asked was that mathematicians, the people who understand the topic best and know what skills children need to succeed in math dependent fields like engineering, should also be included. I find it amazing that the NCTM consistently seeks to degrade mathematicians. Why is that? Why are they so defensive? Why do they get so angry when parents and college professors state that encouraging kids to use calculators in kindergarten and requiring them as early as 3rd grade undermines their ability to grasp mathematical concepts and pursue higher math in high school and college?

I can no longer count the number of times I've heard teachers stand up and state, with no shame whatsoever, that they didn't get math in school. That long division was too much for them. Heck, I've even heard them state that subtraction was really really complicated. Know what - if you didn't get math in school, if long division and subtraction were challenging, then education is probably not your best career choice. Certainly not elementary education.

It's the NCTM, BTW, which is pushing calculators on kinds in elementary school and encouraging schools to stop teaching math facts to mastery because calculators make such knowledge irrelevant.

The NCTE doesn't encourage teachers to dump spelling because spell check makes spelling irrelevant. Or to dump grammar because grammar check makes knowing it irrelevant. That's because spelling and grammar are basic foundations skills every person needs to succeed.

Well the same exists with math. Math facts and the ability to solve complex addition, subtraction, multiplication, and long division problems with ease are basic foundational skills every child needs to succeed in math.

I can't imagine drafting standards for the history of the Revolutionary war without consulting with Revolutionary war historians. How about knocking the defensive chip off your shoulder and recognizing that the only way to set reasonable expectations for students is if everyone has an equal say.

Your refrigerator would be in a hundred pieces and would not work because he is unfamiliar with repairing appliances. It does not mean he is not smart enough to fix it. He just does not have the experience.

Do you know why teachers use calculators for their kids? Many of our youngsters have major ADHD issues. Do you really want to have a student work on a single long division for half a class period just so that you can say he practiced it? How often do you do long division in a calculus class without a calculator? Wasting the class time reinforcing skills that are rarely used makes no sense. Your vaunted college professor does not deal with those issues, so he would not have any experience.

I have taught math in grades 6-12 and it amazes me what some people think is important to teach. If we stick to the standards, we can cover what we test. If the standards are not right, change them.

I have taught in two states and for the Department of Defense. The standards are very similar but the results are very different. In your Fordham study, Florida's standards were graded as "F", but Kentucky's were graded a "C". Having taught in both states, Kentucky's standards are incredibly simplistic and lacking significant rigor. Florida's are very specific and the testing program is much more intensive.

I am all for states having the option to use national standards, but I do not understand spending $350 million dollars to develop what we already have in various forms. Select a representative from each subject area, from every state and hold a conference somewhere and work it out. I 'll bet we could get it done cheaper than that!

[Monster_Mom_22]

Your refrigerator would be in a hundred pieces and would not work because he is unfamiliar with repairing appliances. It does not mean he is not smart enough to fix it. He just does not have the experience.

You assume he doesn't. How do you know he doesn't fix refrigerators on the side for kicks all the time (probably in his black socks and sandals) :eek:

Do you know why teachers use calculators for their kids? Many of our youngsters have major ADHD issues.

The fact that kids have ADHD issues doesn't in any way, shape, or form justify giving a 5 year old a calculator, in my opinion. Calculators are tools which make mathematics easier but they aren't substitutes for teaching basic concepts. If anything they create a level of dependence which, in my opinion, undermines their ability to grasp and understand the implications of higher mathematics concepts.

Do you really want to have a student work on a single long division for half a class period just so that you can say he practiced it?

The only reason it would take a kid half a class to complete a long division problem is if he doesn't know his basic math facts and can't complete the work. Long division, especially the difference between repeating and terminating numbers, is the point where math goes from being concrete to being abstract. It's where those computational tools God put on the ends of hands no long work effectively.

Long division is where you use approximation to get closer and closer to a solution only to discover that the number either terminates (and you have an exact solution) or it repeats (and you get never get the exact solution). And you can never understand why a rational number repeats or terminates, and the significance of that, unless you understand long division.

And if you want to be able to manipulate and factor polynomials (something which is vital in calculus and liner algebra), you darn well better have a sound understanding of long division.


Wasting the class time reinforcing skills that are rarely used makes no sense. Your vaunted college professor does not deal with those issues, so he would not have any experience.

Rarely used by whom and in what fields of study? I may rarely use long division in my daily life, but my brother in law uses it all the time. Engineers and Architects depend on the skills developed learning things like long division to complete differential equations. While many of the children in a class won't enter into science or math dependent fields, some will. While long division may rarely be used by most of us, if we remove it from the curriculum and abdicate responsibility for teaching it then we close doors for those children who just might be future engineers or scientists.

My vaunted college professor has to close that door every day when he has to turn students away from engineering because they never developed their foundational skills and can't complete a differential equations class.

http://www.shearonforschools.com/why_long_division.htm


I have taught math in grades 6-12 and it amazes me what some people think is important to teach.

That all depends on who is doing the telling. :lol:

When so many college professors report that the students they receive from the public schools are mathematically incompetent, when I consider the huge increases in remedial math courses being required of students at the community college level, when many of those professors attribute the declines in competence to over dependence on calculators in elementary grades, then I have to question what is being taught and how.

This year marked the first time more foreign nationals were enrolled in US colleges and Universities in engineering than Americans. The best and brightest math minds aren't found in America anymore, but they used to be. That's not because Americans are stupid or lazy, it's because we expect so little of our students and give our teachers so little to work with.

If we stick to the standards, we can cover what we test. If the standards are not right, change them.

The standards represent, to me, the bare minimum we should be teaching our children, not the end point.

I am all for states having the option to use national standards, but I do not understand spending $350 million dollars to develop what we already have in various forms. Select a representative from each subject area, from every state and hold a conference somewhere and work it out. I 'll bet we could get it done cheaper than that!

I'm with ya there. I like what the NMAP came up with because it gave general guidelines states could incorporate into their standards with as much rigor as they believed was appropriate for their communities. And it was a heck of a lot cheaper than $350 million - which was the price tag just for developing a national assessment. I'm sure the cost of the CCI was / is much much higher.

[Safiel]

Just to interject.

My kids used the Saxon math curriculum and never used calculators. They did long division and all the rest in long hand. If you want to truly **** your child, give them a calculator while they are still trying to master the basics of math.

If a child doesn't have command of basic math, they will never master high math.

[RWReaganfan]

Just to interject.

My kids used the Saxon math curriculum and never used calculators. They did long division and all the rest in long hand. If you want to truly **** your child, give them a calculator while they are still trying to master the basics of math.
If a child doesn't have command of basic math, they will never master high math.

Who advocated that?

[Impenitent]

Who advocated that?

far too many lazy teachers who believe that a machine can do the thinking for your child

[RWReaganfan]

You assume he doesn't. How do you know he doesn't fix refrigerators on the side for kicks all the time (probably in his black socks and sandals) :eek:

We were speaking in generalities. My point stands.

The fact that kids have ADHD issues doesn't in any way, shape, or form justify giving a 5 year old a calculator, in my opinion. Calculators are tools which make mathematics easier but they aren't substitutes for teaching basic concepts. If anything they create a level of dependence which, in my opinion, undermines their ability to grasp and understand the implications of higher mathematics concepts.

Who advocates that?

The only reason it would take a kid half a class to complete a long division problem is if he doesn't know his basic math facts and can't complete the work. Long division, especially the difference between repeating and terminating numbers, is the point where math goes from being concrete to being abstract. It's where those computational tools God put on the ends of hands no long work effectively.

You are showing a perfect example of the problem I am talking about. The kids refuse to the problem simply because they are BORED and it takes a long time if they have not mastered their multiplication skills. I have very capable students that simply refuse to do the work because it is boring. To them, once they have demonstrated the ability to do the work, they want to why are they forced to repeat the task ad infinitum. What do I do with a class with varying skill levels? Hold back and punish those who know how to do the work?



I skipped addressing the points in the remainder of your post because it simply states the obvious to those pursuing a college education. However, the vast majority of our students will NEVER use the math courses taught in high school. For example, I cannot recall when was the last time my daily life required me to factor quadratic equations? How about you?

I was a Navy propulsion engineer, so I have a little appreciation for the value of mathematics. However, I do appreciate the fact that spending money to reinvent the wheel is stupid.

[RWReaganfan]

far too many lazy teachers who believe that a machine can do the thinking for your child

Wrong answer. Would you like to try again?

[Safiel]

Who advocated that?

It is not so much that anybody advocated, it is more a fact that it does tend to occur in practice.

[Monster_Mom_22]

Who advocated that?

The NCTM.

The group you defended in your previous post whose standards you claimed were more than adequate. The same group which claims that mere familiarity with math facts (as opposed to mastery) is sufficient, or "conceptual understanding" of division is sufficient.

http://www.nctm.org/uploadedFiles/About_NCTM/Position_Statements/computation.pdf

Maybe the US needs to just forget all of this a sort kids at middle and high school. Have the no-college track, the trade school track, the general studies track, the business track, and the math / science track and each would have different programs with different expectations. The no-college track could punt math and have a classes on family finance and managing a household budget while the math / science track would have pre-calculus.

It seems like we're trying to meet everyone's needs and everyone has different needs. If you aren't going to college then taking math beyond geometry is a waste of time. Same with many general studies degrees. Trade school and math / science, depending on the trade, have more math and science requirements. Maybe we just start sorting kids earlier instead of having these generic classes that are unnecessary for many and fail to meet the needs of the others.

[SunTzuJJ]

Could a brief nationalization of the public school system be used to break the teachers union and then have the program remanded back to the states?

[PredFan]

Public schools are already nationalized. that's what's wrong with education in america.

[brandottie01@hotmail.com]

Know what - if you didn't get math in school, if long division and subtraction were challenging, then education is probably not your best career choice. Certainly not elementary education.

It's the NCTM, BTW, which is pushing calculators on kinds in elementary school and encouraging schools to stop teaching math facts to mastery because calculators make such knowledge irrelevant.

The NCTE doesn't encourage teachers to dump spelling because spell check makes spelling irrelevant. Or to dump grammar because grammar check makes knowing it irrelevant. That's because spelling and grammar are basic foundations skills every person needs to succeed.

Well the same exists with math. Math facts and the ability to solve complex addition, subtraction, multiplication, and long division problems with ease are basic foundational skills every child needs to succeed in math.

I can't imagine drafting standards for the history of the Revolutionary war without consulting with Revolutionary war historians. How about knocking the defensive chip off your shoulder and recognizing that the only way to set reasonable expectations for students is if everyone has an equal say.

First of all NCTM does consult mathematicians and college level math teachers. Second of all they do not advocate using a calculator for all math. It is to be used as a tool. What engineer or mathematician does everything by hand? They use advanced software that we teach in the high school levels now so that they will be prepared. It does NOT replace their own mind. A calculator can not solve many problems beyond algebra so your argument on that front doesn't hold up. Secondly, I teach AP Calculus I, AP Calculus II, Trigonometry, Pre-Calculus, AP Statistics and Discrete Math. I have kids who were taught at the lower levels without calculators that still can't divide, multiply add or subtract in their heads. Yet they still master calculus. I am sorry but that just slows you down. It doesn't impede your ability to learn higher math. Now if they don't understand what a variable is that is another issue that will keep them from higher math. I have seen a large increase in the understanding of my students with the use of graphing calculators and the visual modeling they offer. I advocate using them at the lower levels to familiarize students with their basic functions. It is counterproductive to teach them how to work the calculator interface for basic math and then try to also teach them how to handle the advanced math in the calculator. Here is a question: If a student can't master multiplication or fractions by sixth grade are we just supposed to bar them from higher math classes? At some point giving them a calculator may gain us a great mathematician because we have enabled them to move beyond their difficulties and are not forcing them to fail for years to come.

[archangelo]

This is rich! The teachers unions have facilitated the creation, though American Public Education, of an electorate that is ignorant enough to elect an unqualified, ego-maniacal soother of other peoples' fantasies, and now he wants to "blame" teachers for their students' performance! :)):)):))

[demalltheway]

I just got my breakout of my property tax bill $6,500 per year goes to the school system. I have no kids, never had, never will but for that money I would expect a first class education and I've met the kids that have graduated through the system and need to ask where the hell did the money go. Our school system assumes a cost of around $8,000 per student for the year. Where the hell did my money go?

[Apatriot]

I just got my breakout of my property tax bill $6,500 per year goes to the school system. I have no kids, never had, never will but for that money I would expect a first class education and I've met the kids that have graduated through the system and need to ask where the hell did the money go. Our school system assumes a cost of around $8,000 per student for the year. Where the hell did my money go?

The average tuition at a non-sectarian (non-religious) private school is $13,419 a year. Your schools are spending about 60% of that amount, hence they get 60% of a first class education.

http://www.capenet.org/facts.html