I almost approached a spanking parent today.

[traditional_woman]

I will preface by saying that I am a spanker, I believe it serves it's purpose, and i believe if done properly it is an effective discipline method. I've never liked the idea of strangers approaching a parent b/c they swatted their kid once or twice for misbehaving.

However;

We have a day care at our gym, and i guess a little boy had gotten into trouble. As I was coming out of my aerobics class i could hear a kid(who sounded about 2yro) screaming and crying at the top of his lungs fllowed by 5 or 6 VERY loud slaps. I was about to knock on the door but instead decided to go to the front desk and let ''the worker'' know, but she did nothing but continue to read her book. I walked to the other locker room to stretch, came back down the same hall to see if anything was still going on. I get to the day care room and she's got him sitting in a time out corner hovering over him, which leads me to the conclusion that he got into trouble and they had called her.

It's just one of those feelings I can't shake. I wanted to go up to her and asked her if she needed any type of help or a break (this is the most deployed post, it's very likely her hubby is in iraq or afghanistan) but she had this look on her face that she didn't want to be messed with. Everytime she slapped him, she'd say ''shut your mouth'', now how the heck is he supposed to NOT cry when you're beating the crap out of him. Looking at the kid he looked between 19-24months. I just felt sad for him.

[sircrestlin]

i also believe in a swat every now and then. if a corner or time out doesn't do the trick, a good attention grabber is in order.
but i grew up in a family, where getting a beating was the first line of defense. it's completely out of control, and not only do i feel sorry for the child who cannot possibly understand that loss of control, but i also feel sorry for the mother.
she must have a tremendous stress load, to go to that kind of extream. as bystanders, it's hard to know when it's ok to offer help.
i once had a very difficult situation with some horrible behavior in a major store. after many attempts to convince my daughter her behavior would not be tolerated in the store, i put her in the shopping cart. She promptly reacted by doubeling her efforts.
rather than swatting her butt in the store, i quickly walked her to the nearest corner. Some of the employees approached me during this battle, confronting me as if i were ABUSING my daughter! Some people actually are SPINELESS enough to let their children act this way in a store, because THEY are embarassed?
I did have one older lady that approached me, who had saw the entire thing unfold, and applauded me for sticking to my guns. I no longer have any problems with my daughter in the store.
Perhaps, when you see that mother again.....introduce yourself and offer help when she isn't in the heat of battle. Some friendship and stress release may very well be what she needs!

[mgifford]

Well, I think we all can say that children of the 40's & 50's & 60's were much less disiplined and acted worse than the children that were in the days following, where parnents decided to never put a hand to the butts. Rights?

[NascarGirl2448]

Well, I think we all can say that children of the 40's & 50's & 60's were much less disiplined and acted worse than the children that were in the days following, where parnents decided to never put a hand to the butts. Rights?

Never mind that adults have always said the next generation is worse than theirs. Why was every parent in America so up in arms when Elvis Presley shook his hips on TV?

I grew up in the 80's and yes, I got spanked. But unlike the woman in the OP, my mom only spanked me once or twice, maybe 3 times, but never very hard. Personally I think she spanked more to get my attention (I admit I was a headstrong kid haha) than anything.

But really, to hit a child that young, that hard, was uncalled for. Kids that age can be easily distracted by other things, and parents ought to try that first, before resorting to spanking. If a parent does spank, I think it should only be one or 2 swats with the hand, and only hard enough to get the kid's attention, not make it sound like you're beating the daylights out of them.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

18-24 months old? What the hell????

[mgifford]

It's always fact that every one's Senator, parents and church are better and more right than everyone' else's.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

It's just one of those feelings I can't shake. I wanted to go up to her and asked her if she needed any type of help or a break (this is the most deployed post, it's very likely her hubby is in iraq or afghanistan) but she had this look on her face that she didn't want to be messed with. Everytime she slapped him, she'd say ''shut your mouth'', now how the heck is he supposed to NOT cry when you're beating the crap out of him. Looking at the kid he looked between 19-24months. I just felt sad for him.

You should trust your gut here. Is there a post Chaplain or a liason who can visit with this person and provide some support and offer some resources for her?

[NascarGirl2448]

It's always fact that every one's Senator, parents and church are better and more right than everyone' else's.

Well you got the parents and church part right, but I think a lot of people think their Senators are turkeys.

[John2598]

I will preface by saying that I am a spanker, I believe it serves it's purpose, and i believe if done properly it is an effective discipline method. I've never liked the idea of strangers approaching a parent b/c they swatted their kid once or twice for misbehaving.

However;

We have a day care at our gym, and i guess a little boy had gotten into trouble. As I was coming out of my aerobics class i could hear a kid(who sounded about 2yro) screaming and crying at the top of his lungs fllowed by 5 or 6 VERY loud slaps. I was about to knock on the door but instead decided to go to the front desk and let ''the worker'' know, but she did nothing but continue to read her book. I walked to the other locker room to stretch, came back down the same hall to see if anything was still going on. I get to the day care room and she's got him sitting in a time out corner hovering over him, which leads me to the conclusion that he got into trouble and they had called her.

It's just one of those feelings I can't shake. I wanted to go up to her and asked her if she needed any type of help or a break (this is the most deployed post, it's very likely her hubby is in iraq or afghanistan) but she had this look on her face that she didn't want to be messed with. Everytime she slapped him, she'd say ''shut your mouth'', now how the heck is he supposed to NOT cry when you're beating the crap out of him. Looking at the kid he looked between 19-24months. I just felt sad for him.

Judging by what you have said, I think you should have called someone to report the woman for child abuse. He's a little defenseless kid and you - his only hope - chose to stay out of it.

[angelicmadrigal]

I will preface by saying that I am a spanker, I believe it serves it's purpose, and i believe if done properly it is an effective discipline method. I've never liked the idea of strangers approaching a parent b/c they swatted their kid once or twice for misbehaving.

However;

We have a day care at our gym, and i guess a little boy had gotten into trouble. As I was coming out of my aerobics class i could hear a kid(who sounded about 2yro) screaming and crying at the top of his lungs fllowed by 5 or 6 VERY loud slaps. I was about to knock on the door but instead decided to go to the front desk and let ''the worker'' know, but she did nothing but continue to read her book. I walked to the other locker room to stretch, came back down the same hall to see if anything was still going on. I get to the day care room and she's got him sitting in a time out corner hovering over him, which leads me to the conclusion that he got into trouble and they had called her.

It's just one of those feelings I can't shake. I wanted to go up to her and asked her if she needed any type of help or a break (this is the most deployed post, it's very likely her hubby is in iraq or afghanistan) but she had this look on her face that she didn't want to be messed with. Everytime she slapped him, she'd say ''shut your mouth'', now how the heck is he supposed to NOT cry when you're beating the crap out of him. Looking at the kid he looked between 19-24months. I just felt sad for him.

There is a HUGE difference between a spanking and a beating. It's usually not a good idea to directly intervene unless you believe imminent and serious harm will come to the child if you do not, that will likely make the parent angrier and the punishment more severe. You rbest bet if you suspect abuse is to find out who the woman is and contact the correct authorities. Also if there were other witnesses attempt to get them to call in as well. It could well be an isolated incident and a case of an over stressed mother, but there is the chance it could be (or turn into) chronic abuse.

[angelicmadrigal]

18-24 months old? What the hell????

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with spanking a kid that age. At that age they understand what "no" means. As a parent if you want to crack your kid on the behind as a method of discipline that's fine, as long as you are in control of yourself. Spanking a kid when you're angry is a really easy way to cross that line of spanking vs beating.

[angelicmadrigal]

I grew up in the 80's and yes, I got spanked. But unlike the woman in the OP, my mom only spanked me once or twice, maybe 3 times, but never very hard. Personally I think she spanked more to get my attention (I admit I was a headstrong kid haha) than anything.


And like me you are probably one of those kids that remember what you got them for too.

That's another point, if you overuse spanking it totally loses the effect.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Judging by what you have said, I think you should have called someone to report the woman for child abuse. He's a little defenseless kid and you - his only hope - chose to stay out of it.
Daycare workers are mandated reporters.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with spanking a kid that age.

I strongly disagree.

[angelicmadrigal]

I strongly disagree.

You don't have to agree with it. I observe the necessity for it on a daily basis, too bad I'm not allowed to implement it. I get lucky though, most of the one and half year-2 year olds at our school actually get the concept of "time out" and they do NOT like it.

[traditional_woman]

Judging by what you have said, I think you should have called someone to report the woman for child abuse. He's a little defenseless kid and you - his only hope - chose to stay out of it.


I told the front desk lady, and the day care workers. As i said, the front desk worker cont'd reading, and the day care workers didn't show t much concern, one of the workers even walked past me at the same time i was hearing it. When i was telling the workers, she was standing right there and said ''oh, is that what i heard''.

The guilt trip attempt will only work if I find out that she is in fact an abuser/crazy person.

[RTchoke]

You don't have to agree with it. I observe the necessity for it on a daily basis, too bad I'm not allowed to implement it. I get lucky though, most of the one and half year-2 year olds at our school actually get the concept of "time out" and they do NOT like it.

I really like it when the older kids pretty much throw in your face how they can do anything they want and you can't do ANYTHING about it. They learned at an early age they were untouchable. they usually have the parents that think ANY kind of discipline is taboo and they make sure everyone who deals with their child knows it.

[traditional_woman]

There is a HUGE difference between a spanking and a beating. It's usually not a good idea to directly intervene unless you believe imminent and serious harm will come to the child if you do not, that will likely make the parent angrier and the punishment more severe. You rbest bet if you suspect abuse is to find out who the woman is and contact the correct authorities. Also if there were other witnesses attempt to get them to call in as well. It could well be an isolated incident and a case of an over stressed mother, but there is the chance it could be (or turn into) chronic abuse.

Yea, i'm hoping i just caught her at her worst moment, and that usually isn't her everyday discipline method. I know sometimes even good parents can cross the line every now and again. Her face sang of ''i've had a bad day, don't even look at me''! I still think she went too far regardless.

[angelicmadrigal]

I told the front desk lady, and the day care workers. As i said, the front desk worker cont'd reading, and the day care workers didn't show t much concern, one of the workers even walked past me at the same time i was hearing it. When i was telling the workers, she was standing right there and said ''oh, is that what i heard''.

The guilt trip attempt will only work if I find out that she is in fact an abuser/crazy person.

Next time you go back you should find out if they reported it, because if they did not they're breaking the law.

Also I just want to point out a visit from children's services is not ALWAYS a bad thing. Sometimes they are able to offer parents services they may not otherwise know about. At one point in my life I was offered a position as a "Family Aide" basically they assisted "at risk" families via caseworkers with things like help managing your children, meal prep, filling out financial assitance paper work, etc...Children's services does not just play the role of the bad people who remove children unjustly from their parents, they actally do try to PREVENT abuse from occuring.

[traditional_woman]

You should trust your gut here. Is there a post Chaplain or a liason who can visit with this person and provide some support and offer some resources for her?

Yes, but it's not as easy as it sounds, especially when yu are dealing with a stranger. When i go in tommorow I'm going to ask the workers some questions, ie how does she normally interact w/ him, does she look happy most of the time etc? Who knows, they may be sitting back to themselves chuckling after i left saying, he deserved it, for whatever he did that caused the spanking.

[angelicmadrigal]

I really like it when the older kids pretty much throw in your face how they can do anything they want and you can't do ANYTHING about it. They learned at an early age they were untouchable. they usually have the parents that think ANY kind of discipline is taboo and they make sure everyone who deals with their child knows it.

Well with the kids in the nursery we get the benefit of spending 8-10 hours a day with them 5 days a week (and most of them start at 6 weeks old) so it's easier to get them to acclimate themselves to what they will/will not do in our care. Unfortuantely when you have kids that start at a year and half or two...(or worse when they start in the preschool at 4 or 5) it becomes WAY more difficult.

I've only ever had one mother complain about me being "mean" to her child, and once he started Kindergarten she actually came and apologized to me and admitted I had been right all along.

[angelicmadrigal]

Yea, i'm hoping i just caught her at her worst moment, and that usually isn't her everyday discipline method. I know sometimes even good parents can cross the line every now and again. Her face sang of ''i've had a bad day, don't even look at me''! I still think she went too far regardless.

It is entirely possible. I think every parent loses their cool at some point, it's just a matter of what extent, and what harm has been done.

[NascarGirl2448]

And like me you are probably one of those kids that remember what you got them for too.

Not every single one, but there were a few that I still remember.

That's another point, if you overuse spanking it totally loses the effect.

That's why I think even if parent does choose to spank, it should be an absolute last resort, unless the kid is just flat out defiant, and nothing else will work. Even then, its not necessary to beat the daylights out of the kid. A firm swat or two with the parents' hand should get the point across.

[RTchoke]

Well with the kids in the nursery we get the benefit of spending 8-10 hours a day with them 5 days a week (and most of them start at 6 weeks old) so it's easier to get them to acclimate themselves to what they will/will not do in our care. Unfortuantely when you have kids that start at a year and half or two...(or worse when they start in the preschool at 4 or 5) it becomes WAY more difficult.

I've only ever had one mother complain about me being "mean" to her child, and once he started Kindergarten she actually came and apologized to me and admitted I had been right all along.

Lucky you!! :clap: It's good to see someone actually realize their children aren't angels and a little creative and constructive discipline isn't going to kill them.

By older I meant in the 7-8 years range where there have been no limitations on their behavior and anyone trying to reign them in is always portrayed as in the wrong by the parents and any form of discipline is discouraged by higher ups. They soon learn they are in charge and untouchable. Bad situation all around for everyone.

[mgifford]

The "Hippie generation" back in the late 70's, my brother and sister in law decided that their "seculer education" was correct in telling people to never spank their kids. Dr. Spock always advised them to "spare the rod". They were both well educated and listened to everything that any liberal had to say about rearing children.

Their son was about the same as our daughter at that time and we certainly had very different views on the subject of Spock and raising kids. Anyway, they no longer spanked their son and guess what? He became a "mini raving maniac". The kind you hear of in late years killing the whole family.

My brother and sister in law today are 60. Their son somehow survived Spock and they now attend the "Tea Parties" when they can. They're as much conservative as anyone could be, I think. to be continued.

[GA_LP]

Lucky you!! :clap: It's good to see someone actually realize their children aren't angels and a little creative and constructive discipline isn't going to kill them.

By older I meant in the 7-8 years range where there have been no limitations on their behavior and anyone trying to reign them in is always portrayed as in the wrong by the parents and any form of discipline is discouraged by higher ups. They soon learn they are in charge and untouchable. Bad situation all around for everyone.A cop friend of mine was sent on a child abuse call a few years ago. The call came into 911 from an 11 year old. When they got there, the kid explained that his mom was spanking him and that his teacher had told him that his parents couldn't spank him in any way and to call the police. He was very surprised to learn that his teacher was quite wrong and that he had an audience of 2 police officers as mom finished whupping his butt. The teacher got a visit and it was made clear to her to keep her opinions on discipline to herself at school.

[mgifford]

a cop friend of mine was sent on a child abuse call a few years ago. The call came into 911 from an 11 year old. When they got there, the kid explained that his mom was spanking him and that his teacher had told him that his parents couldn't spank him in any way and to call the police. He was very surprised to learn that his teacher was quite wrong and that he had an audience of 2 police officers as mom finished whupping his butt. The teacher got a visit and it was made clear to her to keep her opinions on discipline to herself at school.

+1

[angelicmadrigal]

Their son was about the same as our daughter at that time and we certainly had very different views on the subject of Spock and raising kids. Anyway, they no longer spanked their son and guess what? He became a "mini raving maniac". The kind you hear of in late years killing the whole family.


Actaully some children don't need spanked. For instance one of my students was so afraid of her father's disapproval that she was an ANGEL child: well mannered, obiedient, kind, and really applied herself at school. Her olders sister on the other hand evidently spent a lot of time in time out and getting spankings for her less than stellar behavior at school and home. So it really depends on the kid.

Though, I can see why she might have felt that way. I met her father once and he a very commanding presence.

[RTchoke]

A cop friend of mine was sent on a child abuse call a few years ago. The call came into 911 from an 11 year old. When they got there, the kid explained that his mom was spanking him and that his teacher had told him that his parents couldn't spank him in any way and to call the police. He was very surprised to learn that his teacher was quite wrong and that he had an audience of 2 police officers as mom finished whupping his butt. The teacher got a visit and it was made clear to her to keep her opinions on discipline to herself at school.

I worked with someone who had lived in Boise. They spanked their child one night after an episode that involved disrespect, name calling, door slamming shouting and hitting etc. (from the child mind you, not the parents :razz:)

She told her teacher the next day. Guess who got a call and visit from Children's Services after it was reported?

Guess it's different in some cases. :confused:

[angelicmadrigal]

I worked with someone who had lived in Boise. They spanked their child one night after an episode that involved disrespect, name calling, door slamming shouting and hitting etc. (from the child mind you, not the parents :razz:)

She told her teacher the next day. Guess who got a call and visit from Children's Services after it was reported?

Guess it's different in some cases. :confused:

I'd rather children's services go out and investigate ALL suspected cases of abuse and go away empty handed than be overly cautious and miss subtle cases of abuse though. Also, they must have had a slow day/case load to go over, because I've seen the risk assessments (how they triage what cases are looked into first) CPS uses and for them to go out there quickly for "spanking" they must have had nothing better to do, or it was reported as being WAY worse than it actually was.

[mgifford]

actaully some children don't need spanked. For instance one of my students was so afraid of her father's disapproval that she was an angel child: Well mannered, obiedient, kind, and really applied herself at school. Her olders sister on the other hand evidently spent a lot of time in time out and getting spankings for her less than stellar behavior at school and home. So it really depends on the kid.

Though, i can see why she might have felt that way. I met her father once and he a very commanding presence.

+1

[RTchoke]

I'd rather children's services go out and investigate ALL suspected cases of abuse and go away empty handed than be overly cautious and miss subtle cases of abuse though. Also, they must have had a slow day/case load to go over, because I've seen the risk assessments (how they triage what cases are looked into first) CPS uses and for them to go out there quickly for "spanking" they must have had nothing better to do, or it was reported as being WAY worse than it actually was.

I have a feeling this was the case. I'm pretty sure by the time the kid got out the "story" to the teacher about how "abused" she was it went from two swats (which it was) to a full blown 15 minute beat down. Heck, my DD thinks making her eat her rice is tantamount to forcing her to eat dead bugs and lizards. :razz:

I'm not saying CPS should never get involved or that they are not needed. I don't want anyone misunderstanding me. I was trying to point out that some children have learned how to work the system after being told by others what their parents are "allowed" to do to them as far as punishment goes. If t hey have to embellish or make sure they tell it to someone they know is fanatical about no punishment in any circumstance they will.

[super cool ski instructor]

A cop friend of mine was sent on a child abuse call a few years ago. The call came into 911 from an 11 year old. When they got there, the kid explained that his mom was spanking him and that his teacher had told him that his parents couldn't spank him in any way and to call the police. He was very surprised to learn that his teacher was quite wrong and that he had an audience of 2 police officers as mom finished whupping his butt. The teacher got a visit and it was made clear to her to keep her opinions on discipline to herself at school.

Amen

[mgifford]

Originally Posted by angelicmadrigal
I'd rather children's services go out and investigate ALL suspected cases of abuse and go away empty handed than be overly cautious and miss subtle cases of abuse though. Also, they must have had a slow day/case load to go over, because I've seen the risk assessments (how they triage what cases are looked into first) CPS uses and for them to go out there quickly for "spanking" they must have had nothing better to do, or it was reported as being WAY worse than it actually was

Of course DFAC's has to be one of the worst divisions of any government ever dragged up from, who knows where at times too. They're many times a bunch of misfits.

[GA_LP]

I worked with someone who had lived in Boise. They spanked their child one night after an episode that involved disrespect, name calling, door slamming shouting and hitting etc. (from the child mind you, not the parents :razz:)

She told her teacher the next day. Guess who got a call and visit from Children's Services after it was reported?

Guess it's different in some cases. :confused:It all depends on what state law is, regarding both abuse and teacher abuse reporting standards.

[kaspiahn]

I spanked my child until she was about 6-8 yrs old. She was a good kid for the most part. Every once and awhile she would test the waters. I'd just have to give her a quick reminder of whose the boss. I also told her from the beginning that if she felt she was being abused and wanted to report me or my wife to anyone, go ahead. One rule I always followed "never spank your child out of anger". Do it after you've cooled down and can control your emotions. My daughter is now 20 yrs old and currently in Air Force basic training. She will be a stable minded/productive member of society. I hope she doesn't try to be one of those "time out" parents. Nothing like the hands on approach.

[fuzee]

There is a HUGE difference between a spanking and a beating. It's usually not a good idea to directly intervene unless you believe imminent and serious harm will come to the child if you do not, that will likely make the parent angrier and the punishment more severe. Your best bet if you suspect abuse is to find out who the woman is and contact the correct authorities. Also if there were other witnesses attempt to get them to call in as well. It could well be an isolated incident and a case of an over stressed mother, but there is the chance it could be (or turn into) chronic abuse.

Like the "well-meaning" passers-by, who called Turlock, CA "authorities", one year ago?
http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/1704653-Cop-kills-man-who-beat-child-to-death/

Sure, sure -- there's a big difference between over-spanking, and beating a child bloody.
You say so, yourself...in the first sentence.

However, what bothers me is your prominent use of the word "suspect," and your advice to not "intervene."
In the case I've noted, most of the witnesses followed your advice.
The results?
A dead baby...and a dead perpetrator -- likely, the baby's father, although "authorities" seem to want that part kept quiet.

So, my advice would be somewhat different than yours, angel.
Because, when the smoke clears on any abusive situation...the best scenario would be a living victim (age not necessarily a factor) and a disarmed perpetrator -- whether that means incapacitated by law enforcement, or by other appropriate means.

In the 2008 case, for instance, an armed witness might have taken the man down, in time to save the child.
One man did try, at least....although he obviously lacked the tools, and skills to do the job.

At any rate, waiting on "authorities" was not the answer, in that case.
And I could site a disturbing number of other cases where the same would apply.
Because, police are a lot better at filing reports about a crime scene, than they are at preventing the crime from ever taking place.

But, "suspecting" abuse was hardly a part of the Turlock picture, either.
Maybe the man was normally a quiet, sensitive guy...who wouldn't harm a fly, eh?
Honestly, angel -- how many times have you heard 'friends and family' make a similar description of a freakin' mass- murderer?

In summary, my advice to anyone who witnesses an event in which it is probable that grave harm to a victim(s) is imminent --

FIRST, act quickly to separate the perpetrator(s) from the victim(s).

Second -- notify "authorities."

In the gym case sited here, at least the poster did try to do something.
He/she immediately tried to get the attention of a gym worker.
But that failing, the next best course might be to get everyone's attention --
everyone present at the gym.

However, the best approach would be much different, had the poster reason to believe that the child's safety was in imminent, and grave danger.
In that case, the poster would be obligated to immediately use the least amount of action (or force) necessary, in order to separate the perpetrator from the victim.

At the same time, the intervening should also include loud noises, shouts, and the like...so that others in the vicinity are alerted to the threat.
Yell "rape," if you have to! Anything to raise awareness that help is needed!
Because, the best way to disarm even the simple over-reaction of a normally good mother, is....a big crowd of onlookers.
That will usually snap her back into a current reality.

And yes, you might face some ridicule, afterward.
But, which is worse -- an injured ego, or a dead victim?

Yet, in a case like the one in Turlock......onlookers were not enough to dissuade
the perpetrator...were they?
Of course, in that case, deadly force was being used upon the little victim....and
therefore, only deadly force would provide the best remedy.

The thing is.....it came much too late to save the baby!
Even though at least one witness (as I recall, a few others did try, too) made
an attempt at it -- too little...and too late....became the best epitaph I can come up
with, for the stone on that poor little boy's grave.

So, in any situation like these -- use your head, people!
Quickly evaluate the situation, and act accordingly!
And, if your biggest concern is for your own safety (or, self-esteem)....call for immediate back-up!
But remember, that back-up isn't necessarily the police!
Because, when time is of the essence.....YOU are the best "authority" around.
You...are already on-the-scene.

[mgifford]

I spanked my child until she was about 6-8 yrs old. She was a good kid for the most part. Every once and awhile she would test the waters. I'd just have to give her a quick reminder of whose the boss. I also told her from the beginning that if she felt she was being abused and wanted to report me or my wife to anyone, go ahead. One rule I always followed "never spank your child out of anger". Do it after you've cooled down and can control your emotions. My daughter is now 20 yrs old and currently in Air Force basic training. She will be a stable minded/productive member of society. I hope she doesn't try to be one of those "time out" parents. Nothing like the hands on approach.

Correct, never spank in anger.

[fuzee]

I spanked my child until she was about 6-8 yrs old. She was a good kid for the most part. Every once and awhile she would test the waters. I'd just have to give her a quick reminder of whose the boss. I also told her from the beginning that if she felt she was being abused and wanted to report me or my wife to anyone, go ahead. One rule I always followed "never spank your child out of anger". Do it after you've cooled down and can control your emotions. My daughter is now 20 yrs old and currently in Air Force basic training. She will be a stable minded/productive member of society. I hope she doesn't try to be one of those "time out" parents. Nothing like the hands on approach.

BINGO!

You might consider giving "parenting" classes, kaspia.
What the world needs most, right now...is some good common sense!

Btw....my sincerest gratitude to your daughter, for her bravery in choosing
to serve our country!
My thanks to you, as well...for having raised her to be the young woman
she's become!

[angelicmadrigal]

However, what bothers me is your prominent use of the word "suspect," and your advice to not "intervene."
In the case I've noted, most of the witnesses followed your advice.
The results?

I also used the term imminent danger, which means the child is in danger of severe harm or death, you must have missed that.

[Alaric]

A pat on the back helps builds character in children...

Especially when given consistently....





















and low enough....




and followed by a hug.

[fuzee]

I also used the term imminent danger, which means the child is in danger of severe harm or death, you must have missed that.

Point taken, angel.

But, I'm still not completely understanding your position on this topic.
Having had prior intercourse with you...on a similar matter -- I still
wander where it is that you draw the line between what is the right of
the parent, and what actually surpasses that right?

Certainly, the Turlock incident was a gross example of overstepping the rights
of a parent!

And I'm concerned that you consider much of the chore of good "parenting"
falls under that same category...perhaps, because you trust that "the authorities"
have some magical ability to better choose what is right for a child,
than the parents of that child might.

I don't know you from Adam, angel....but, it's been my experience that most I've met,
who hold similar ideas about child-rearing....have never tried it, themselves.
Oh, they've read the text books on it, sure! (especially, those written by others
who have never raised a child, either!:confused:)
Then, they attempt to fill that void, by telling others how to raise their own kids --
much like "authorities"...or government might do.

So, I'm wandering whether or not you and I agree on the basics --
and just where you would say that government has no business interfering?

I say -- if a parent is abusing a child, whether physically, or mentally;
whether all at once, or over years of time --
that's an issue that must be dealt with.

However, correcting one's child is usually not the same as abusing them.
And certainly, making important choices for one's child is not abuse!
It's parenting!

For example, I'm not fully trusting of certain childhood vaccinations that
government has made mandatory.
Furthermore, I can site examples in which the safety/efficacy of such
vaccines has come into question.

And so, I wander -- if a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child...
do you back that parent, or..
are you one of those "experts" who might sanction "authorities" to
force the vaccination of the child, through whatever means necessary?
I can site cases of that, too....in which children have been taken away from
their homes, and their parents.

So....maybe I'm wrong about you, angel.
Maybe you aren't one of those who see government as the final word --
as everybody's mommy. :confused:
If so, my humblest apologies.

But, I must admit...from your posts, it's very hard to tell which side
you're on!

[RogerDodger]

Kid probably deserved it.

The truth is you don't know the whole story. And since you don't, it is really none of your business.

[CaptainPike]

I will preface by saying that I am a spanker, I believe it serves it's purpose, and i believe if done properly it is an effective discipline method. I've never liked the idea of strangers approaching a parent b/c they swatted their kid once or twice for misbehaving.

However;

We have a day care at our gym, and i guess a little boy had gotten into trouble. As I was coming out of my aerobics class i could hear a kid(who sounded about 2yro) screaming and crying at the top of his lungs fllowed by 5 or 6 VERY loud slaps. I was about to knock on the door but instead decided to go to the front desk and let ''the worker'' know, but she did nothing but continue to read her book. I walked to the other locker room to stretch, came back down the same hall to see if anything was still going on. I get to the day care room and she's got him sitting in a time out corner hovering over him, which leads me to the conclusion that he got into trouble and they had called her.

It's just one of those feelings I can't shake. I wanted to go up to her and asked her if she needed any type of help or a break (this is the most deployed post, it's very likely her hubby is in iraq or afghanistan) but she had this look on her face that she didn't want to be messed with. Everytime she slapped him, she'd say ''shut your mouth'', now how the heck is he supposed to NOT cry when you're beating the crap out of him. Looking at the kid he looked between 19-24months. I just felt sad for him.

You can call me sexist or a misogynist or whatever you want, but...

Women simply do not have the same authority as a man when it comes to children. Maybe you are right and the father is in Iraq. That would explain the extra effort required to discipline child.

I almost never spank my children. They listen to what I say. When they do need punishment, it's not in the form of hitting. They can stand in the corner (for a long time). Or hold a stack of books. Or some other lengthy punishment that will physically drain them, but hitting is almost never, ever needed. But these types of punishments will not and can not work if the person imposing the punishment has zero perceived authority.

Everyone can disagree with me all they want, but children need fathers. My kids know they can get away with certain things when they only have their mother to deal with. It gets worse when I occasionally have to go out of town for work. Then I come back after a week and my children are happy to see me. I'm happy to see them too. But the shock of having to listen to what I say leaves them stunned.

[Plasmaball]

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with spanking a kid that age. At that age they understand what "no" means. As a parent if you want to crack your kid on the behind as a method of discipline that's fine, as long as you are in control of yourself. Spanking a kid when you're angry is a really easy way to cross that line of spanking vs beating.

my answer to these type of statements is:
When you do something stupid, how about i spank you till you cry?
People dont tend to like this answer.

[Plasmaball]

A cop friend of mine was sent on a child abuse call a few years ago. The call came into 911 from an 11 year old. When they got there, the kid explained that his mom was spanking him and that his teacher had told him that his parents couldn't spank him in any way and to call the police. He was very surprised to learn that his teacher was quite wrong and that he had an audience of 2 police officers as mom finished whupping his butt. The teacher got a visit and it was made clear to her to keep her opinions on discipline to herself at school.

Wow this is ****ed up.
how about the cops explain things and walk away.
Spanking is still abuse period. Your rights end at your fingertips.
The cops were wrong for sitting there and watching it.

[jimjames418]

my answer to these type of statements is:
When you do something stupid, how about i spank you till you cry?
People dont tend to like this answer.
I once spent a night in jail for "spanking" a man, actually beating the **** out of him because a nine month baby was in his way while going after another beer. He kicked the baby so hard it threw him across the room and against the wall. I didn't even think about it, I just got up and started pounding on him.

The man's wife, the baby's mother called the cops. They came out and took me to jail. But they didn't close the cell door or even lock the building. The sheriff came the next morning and took me home with him and fed me breakfeast. Told me he was wondering when someone was going to go after the SOB for mistreatment of the kids.

No charges were filed.

[GA_LP]

Wow this is ****ed up.
how about the cops explain things and walk away.
Spanking is still abuse period. Your rights end at your fingertips.
The cops were wrong for sitting there and watching it.Yes they should have left. The mother, now possibly enraged at having the police come to her home, thanks the officers and they leave. Now, she really beats the **** out of the kid. [/sarcasm]

With the police there, she doesn't go too far with them watching; they are a moderating effect on her anger. Its called police work.

Second, spanking isn't abuse; and until GA law is changed, your opinion is moot. Its not about rights it's about discipline and the welfare of the child.

BTW - how many kids do you have? None, right? I have 3, the youngest, my daughter, is 14 soon to be 15. All are happy, well adjusted (most of the time, she is still a young teen) and rarely were spanked. Its a tool in the arsenal, based on the transgression. Only a fool goes to the belt EVERY time.

[fuzee]

I once spent a night in jail for "spanking" a man, actually beating the **** out of him because a nine month baby was in his way while going after another beer. He kicked the baby so hard it threw him across the room and against the wall. I didn't even think about it, I just got up and started pounding on him.

The man's wife, the baby's mother called the cops. They came out and took me to jail. But they didn't close the cell door or even lock the building. The sheriff came the next morning and took me home with him and fed me breakfast. Told me he was wondering when someone was going to go after the SOB for mistreatment of the kids.

No charges were filed.

:clap:

Hope that breakfast was good, astro-bro.
You deserved it!

[NascarGirl2448]

Kid probably deserved it.

The truth is you don't know the whole story. And since you don't, it is really none of your business.

Potential child abuse is always other people's business. Someone has to protect the kids, and sometimes that someone is a complete stranger who sees something isn't right and is concerned about the welfare of a child. Not saying that was what was happening in this situation, but it sure sounded like it was close. IF this mother was hitting her child out of frustration and anger, which it sounds like she may have been, then who knows what happens behind closed doors.

A mild spanking as an attention getter is one thing, and most people don't have a problem with that. Beating the fire out of a kid, like what it sounds like this woman was doing, just because you're frustrated or angry is a whole nother story. That woman sounds like she needs help, and ought to get it, for the child's sake anyway.

[NascarGirl2448]

I once spent a night in jail for "spanking" a man, actually beating the **** out of him because a nine month baby was in his way while going after another beer. He kicked the baby so hard it threw him across the room and against the wall. I didn't even think about it, I just got up and started pounding on him.

The man's wife, the baby's mother called the cops. They came out and took me to jail. But they didn't close the cell door or even lock the building. The sheriff came the next morning and took me home with him and fed me breakfeast. Told me he was wondering when someone was going to go after the SOB for mistreatment of the kids.

No charges were filed.

Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing. Hopefully CPS got involved and got those kids out of there.

[Gray]

This is one of the biggest problems in our society today. Some busybody know-it-all interfering in other's parental business

[Gray]

I once spent a night in jail for "spanking" a man, actually beating the **** out of him because a nine month baby was in his way while going after another beer. He kicked the baby so hard it threw him across the room and against the wall. I didn't even think about it, I just got up and started pounding on him.

The man's wife, the baby's mother called the cops. They came out and took me to jail. But they didn't close the cell door or even lock the building. The sheriff came the next morning and took me home with him and fed me breakfeast. Told me he was wondering when someone was going to go after the SOB for mistreatment of the kids.

No charges were filed.

Outstanding.

[NascarGirl2448]

This is one of the biggest problems in our society today. Some busybody know-it-all interfering in other's parental business

When there is a potential of a child being in danger, someone needs to intervene for the child's sake. Like I said, most people don't have a problem with a parent giving their child a swat or two to get their attention, but when it sounds like someone is beating the tar out of a kid and then only seeming to get angrier when the kid cries, then a situation like that ought to raise some eyebrows.

[Techgod]

Never met an animal or child who could not be taught without one strike.

Met plenty of people who can not teach either animals or children without it.

Of course who has the time to do things the hard way.

[Gray]

When there is a potential of a child being in danger, someone needs to intervene for the child's sake. Like I said, most people don't have a problem with a parent giving their child a swat or two to get their attention, but when it sounds like someone is beating the tar out of a kid and then only seeming to get angrier when the kid cries, then a situation like that ought to raise some eyebrows.

The problem is the perception of the event is prone to error. Any true abuse should be confronted but unfortunately to many are over-zealous and judgmental.

[angelicmadrigal]

I don't know you from Adam, angel....but, it's been my experience that most I've met,
who hold similar ideas about child-rearing....have never tried it, themselves.
Oh, they've read the text books on it, sure! (especially, those written by others
who have never raised a child, either!:confused:)
Then, they attempt to fill that void, by telling others how to raise their own kids --
much like "authorities"...or government might do.

Let's put it this way my experience with parenting is that:

*at 17 I was the primary caretaker (more than the mother or other family) of a 2 year old, until she was 4 and her mother was able to care for her again.

* I teach preschool and work "extended hours" which means 6:30am-5:30pm, so I spend 8-10 hours with certain children EVERDAY. So I spend more waking time with them then their own parents on average.

* I've worked in a volunteer capacity for Girl Scouts since I was 16, and started doing programs for younger girls when I was 12.

So, yeah I'd say in my life I've been taking on the responsibility of parenting other people's children. Hence why I don't have my own children, I enjoy having my private time. It's not about reading books it's about personal experience.

As for the government knowing what's best for a child, there are some cases where that is BLATANTLY true because some parents are just inept, unskilled, or don't care.

[angelicmadrigal]

And so, I wander -- if a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child...
do you back that parent, or..
are you one of those "experts" who might sanction "authorities" to
force the vaccination of the child, through whatever means necessary?
I can site cases of that, too....in which children have been taken away from
their homes, and their parents.


If you can find a reputable Dr. that says it isn't necessary that is willing to sign off that the risks have been explained to you, and you do not intend to send your child to public school, I don't really care if you want to vaccinate your kid or not.

Furthermore last I checked the law required parents to provide reasonable medical care IF the child is ill, it does not to my knowledge extend to preventitive care. However, if your child contracted measels, mumps, etc...and got very ill and died, because you refused to vaccinate I'd be the first person to mention to you that's what vaccinations are for.

[angelicmadrigal]

my answer to these type of statements is:
When you do something stupid, how about i spank you till you cry?
People dont tend to like this answer.

My answer is:
1) You dont' have any authority to do that
2) Try it and see what happens to you

If you don't like spanking that is YOUR problem, you don't get to tell other people what they should/shoud not be doing, because guess what your opinion doesn't matter.

[angelicmadrigal]

Spanking is still abuse period.

Not according tot law it isn't. That's your PERSONAL opinion.

[jimjames418]

:clap:

Hope that breakfast was good, astro-bro.
You deserved it!
Grits & eggs, ham, orange juice, coffee, and milk. I thought it was good. ;)

Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing. Hopefully CPS got involved and got those kids out of there.
This happened over 65 years ago, before the time of CPS or any other child protection laws. Back durring the time when a man could beat the **** out of his wife and nobody, even the police, would say a thing to him.

[ExDem]

18-24 months old? What the hell????

WTH is right. Unacceptable. I would be reporting this to someone-----a hotline, a chaplain or someone.

[NascarGirl2448]

The problem is the perception of the event is prone to error. Any true abuse should be confronted but unfortunately to many are over-zealous and judgmental.

So you would rather someone be allowed to beat the living daylights out of their child? Come on. A spanking is one thing, but hitting the kid hard enough to make him cry and then telling the kid to shut up when he does cry is a sure sign something is wrong and someone needs to step in to protect the child.

[NascarGirl2448]

Grits & eggs, ham, orange juice, coffee, and milk. I thought it was good. ;)

Sounds yummy!

This happened over 65 years ago, before the time of CPS or any other child protection laws. Back durring the time when a man could beat the **** out of his wife and nobody, even the police, would say a thing to him.

Thankfully times are not like that anymore.

[John2598]

The guilt trip attempt will only work if I find out that she is in fact an abuser/crazy person.

I thought it was already established that she was abusive. I thought that was the point of your discription of her behavior. What would it take? Would she have to draw blood or break bones?

Are you familliar with the case of Calee Anthony? I wonder how many times she was abused before she ended-up dead. They found her remains in a plastic bag (in the woods).

[Plasmaball]

My answer is:
1) You dont' have any authority to do that
2) Try it and see what happens to you

If you don't like spanking that is YOUR problem, you don't get to tell other people what they should/shoud not be doing, because guess what your opinion doesn't matter.

Ha! perfect answer. The fact that you answer this way shows that it is unacceptable.
You dont have the "authority" either. You are still touching another person without their permission.

I see you spanking your child out in public? Good chance i will look at you and maybe say something. What i dont see is not my problem.

As for number 2, Thats amusing that you would say that where a child really doesn't know better. They can't go and say watch what happens. Number two is a hypocritical answer.

[Plasmaball]

Yes they should have left. The mother, now possibly enraged at having the police come to her home, thanks the officers and they leave. Now, she really beats the **** out of the kid. [/sarcasm]

With the police there, she doesn't go too far with them watching; they are a moderating effect on her anger. Its called police work.

Second, spanking isn't abuse; and until GA law is changed, your opinion is moot. Its not about rights it's about discipline and the welfare of the child.

BTW - how many kids do you have? None, right? I have 3, the youngest, my daughter, is 14 soon to be 15. All are happy, well adjusted (most of the time, she is still a young teen) and rarely were spanked. Its a tool in the arsenal, based on the transgression. Only a fool goes to the belt EVERY time.

helped raise my little sister who is 12 now. Never had to spank her. Nor did my mother.I NEVER had to nor will i have to hit a child to get them to listen.

The day i can not out think a little child and have to hit them, is the day i pack it up and walk away.
^^thats what i think of spanker's. Resort to hitting because they can't out think the child.

[jimjames418]

The day i can not out think a little child and have to hit them, is the day i pack it up and walk away.
^^thats what i think of spanker's. Resort to hitting because they can't out think the child.
I feel the same way about people who can't program computers. They are admitting that a piece of metal is smarter than they are. :whistle:

[PeterGriffin]

Spanking the kids has worked out so well, I'm using it on everybody, especially the wife. Whenever she's acting up, getting too sassy or demanding, just a little light open handed smack in the face shuts her right up. Sure, she sulks around for a little bit, but she sure stops whatever she was doing to **** me off. Hell, it works great even on the dog. He used to chew up my slippers and the usual dog things. Couple drop kicks to the belly, he only pees in the house when he hears me come from work now.

I've found it to be a great managerial tool as well. When the salespeople under me don't make their quotas, do they get a firm talking to, or a motivational speech? Nope, a nice shot in the solar plexus and they get the message that they have to do better. Or else.

[fuzee]

The problem is the perception of the event is prone to error. Any true abuse should be confronted but unfortunately to many are over-zealous and judgmental.

Well said, Gray.

I'm all for corporal punishment. Capital punishment, too.
In fact, I could argue that the former, used appropriately,
greatly reduces the need for the latter.

But in this case, I don't think that Nascar was over-reacting.
I think she simply picked up on the mother's dangerous frame-of-mind,
at the time.
Crimes of passion happen swiftly.
So, if that mother was past her point of self-control, for whatever reason...
Nas may well have snapped her back enough to regain control.

I'm sure that all of us.....or most of us, anyway...can recall a time when
we were pushed to the limit.
Sometimes, the use of physical force is justifiable -- as with jimjames.
But, like you said -- it all depends upon the circumstances.

"Dog bites man" is not only socially, and morally acceptable --
it's also an act of nature.

But, "Man bites dog"...is none of those things.

As human beings, we should always be mindful of our nature.
Yet, we must also respect that which separates us from it.

[BillyBobUSA]

I will preface by saying that I am a spanker, I believe it serves it's purpose, and i believe if done properly it is an effective discipline method. I've never liked the idea of strangers approaching a parent b/c they swatted their kid once or twice for misbehaving.

However;

We have a day care at our gym, and i guess a little boy had gotten into trouble. As I was coming out of my aerobics class i could hear a kid(who sounded about 2yro) screaming and crying at the top of his lungs fllowed by 5 or 6 VERY loud slaps. I was about to knock on the door but instead decided to go to the front desk and let ''the worker'' know, but she did nothing but continue to read her book. I walked to the other locker room to stretch, came back down the same hall to see if anything was still going on. I get to the day care room and she's got him sitting in a time out corner hovering over him, which leads me to the conclusion that he got into trouble and they had called her.

It's just one of those feelings I can't shake. I wanted to go up to her and asked her if she needed any type of help or a break (this is the most deployed post, it's very likely her hubby is in iraq or afghanistan) but she had this look on her face that she didn't want to be messed with. Everytime she slapped him, she'd say ''shut your mouth'', now how the heck is he supposed to NOT cry when you're beating the crap out of him. Looking at the kid he looked between 19-24months. I just felt sad for him.


How about you just minding your own business?

[fuzee]

Let's put it this way my experience with parenting is that:

*at 17 I was the primary caretaker (more than the mother or other family) of a 2 year old, until she was 4 and her mother was able to care for her again.

* I teach preschool and work "extended hours" which means 6:30am-5:30pm, so I spend 8-10 hours with certain children EVERYDAY. So I spend more waking time with them then their own parents on average.

Commendable work, angel. And I'm sure it takes lots of patience.

Still, it's not the same as having your own children....although, your care of the
toddler comes very close --
just as adopting/foster parents are often the closest a child might ever get to
having a real family.

But, even though the differences between biological and optional parenting
may seem small, and almost inconsequential --
there is still a bond between a parent and their own child, that is difficult to
convey, in mere words.

And so, if I were your therapist.....I'd suggest you try it, yourself! :silenced:

* I've worked in a volunteer capacity for Girl Scouts since I was 16, and started doing programs for younger girls when I was 12. Again, very commendable work!
I'm sure you've made a difference in many of those girl's lives.

So, yeah I'd say in my life I've been taking on the responsibility of parenting other people's children. Hence why I don't have my own children, I enjoy having my private time. It's not about reading books it's about personal experience.

Uh-oh.

Right...right. I'm not your therapist.

As for the government knowing what's best for a child, there are some cases where that is BLATANTLY true because some parents are just inept, unskilled, or don't care.

Okay -- that one got me!

Government, my dear angel...is never the best answer.
And more often than not -- the very worst!

[fuzee]

I feel the same way about people who can't program computers. They are admitting that a piece of metal is smarter than they are. :whistle:

:))

My personal nemesis is indoor plumbing.

So, does that mean....oh, never mind. At least I can still flush the thing!

[angelicmadrigal]

And so, if I were your therapist.....I'd suggest you try it, yourself! :silenced:



Please ::eyeroll:: popping out a child does NOT make you 1) an expereinced person at raising children or 2) instantly wise about what is best for a child. You learn that through experience. Parents don't automatically get respect from me by simply giving birth to a child, in my eyes they have to EARN it. Some biological parents are capable and willing to do the work required to raise a a child, some are not. I don't respect parents that do a half assed job, my opinion on it is if you aren't going do the job of being a parent you need pass the responisbility over to someone who will.

As for having a child of my own, I am honest with myself. I enjoy my private time too much and would consider a child an imposition at this point in my life. That and I spend 8-10 hours a day with other people's children so by the time I get home the LAST thing I want to have to do is the daily tasks of raising a child. See, unlike some people I'm honest about my expectations and my lifestyle, I wish I could say that all people who become parents are as honest as I am.

[notluzn]

Sorry but this was no ones Business.

[angelicmadrigal]

Ha! perfect answer. The fact that you answer this way shows that it is unacceptable.
You dont have the "authority" either. You are still touching another person without their permission.
Actually parent's DO have that authority. Parents constantly make decisions for their children that their children do not give consent for. For instance you can get vaccinations for a child without their consent.


I see you spanking your child out in public? Good chance i will look at you and maybe say something. What i dont see is not my problem.
And you are wrong in doing so. Again, I doubt you have the presence to make anyone care. I know I certainly wouldn't.


As for number 2, Thats amusing that you would say that where a child really doesn't know better. They can't go and say watch what happens. Number two is a hypocritical answer.

You obviously haven't met some 2 and 3 year olds.

[fuzee]

Spanking the kids has worked out so well, I'm using it on everybody, especially the wife. Whenever she's acting up, getting too sassy or demanding, just a little light open handed smack in the face shuts her right up. Sure, she sulks around for a little bit, but she sure stops whatever she was doing to **** me off. Hell, it works great even on the dog. He used to chew up my slippers and the usual dog things. Couple drop kicks to the belly, he only pees in the house when he hears me come from work now.

I've found it to be a great managerial tool as well. When the salespeople under me don't make their quotas, do they get a firm talking to, or a motivational speech? Nope, a nice shot in the solar plexus and they get the message that they have to do better. Or else.

Have you ever considered working for the IRS?

[GA_LP]

Spanking the kids has worked out so well, I'm using it on everybody, especially the wife. Whenever she's acting up, getting too sassy or demanding, just a little light open handed smack in the face shuts her right up. Sure, she sulks around for a little bit, but she sure stops whatever she was doing to **** me off. Hell, it works great even on the dog. He used to chew up my slippers and the usual dog things. Couple drop kicks to the belly, he only pees in the house when he hears me come from work now.

I've found it to be a great managerial tool as well. When the salespeople under me don't make their quotas, do they get a firm talking to, or a motivational speech? Nope, a nice shot in the solar plexus and they get the message that they have to do better. Or else.Wow, didn't know you were posting from prison, Peter.

Are your posts ever relevant or sane? Spanking is legal in most states; your fictional bs scenario isn't.

[PeterGriffin]

Wow, didn't know you were posting from prison, Peter.

Are your posts ever relevant or sane? Spanking is legal in most states; your fictional bs scenario isn't.

Hey, if its OK to hit kids, its gotta be OK to hit adults and animals, as long as its done in a corrective and appropriate fashion, right?

[fuzee]

Please ::eyeroll:: popping out a child does NOT make you 1) an expereinced person at raising children or 2) instantly wise about what is best for a child. You learn that through experience. Parents don't automatically get respect from me by simply giving birth to a child, in my eyes they have to EARN it. Some biological parents are capable and willing to do the work required to raise a a child, some are not. I don't respect parents that do a half assed job, my opinion on it is if you aren't going do the job of being a parent you need pass the responisbility over to someone who will.

As for having a child of my own, I am honest with myself. I enjoy my private time too much and would consider a child an imposition at this point in my life. That and I spend 8-10 hours a day with other people's children so by the time I get home the LAST thing I want to have to do is the daily tasks of raising a child. See, unlike some people I'm honest about my expectations and my lifestyle, I wish I could say that all people who become parents are as honest as I am.

Oops!
Touched a nerve there, eh? :doh:

I know, I know -- you're one of those gals who doesn't evaluate her own worth
by such common standards, as....breeding!
Am I right?

Very sixties of you, angel....if I may say so?

Too late.
I did, anyway.

[GA_LP]

Hey, if its OK to hit kids, its gotta be OK to hit adults and animals, as long as its done in a corrective and appropriate fashion, right?
Let us, or your attorney, know how that approach works out for you.

[PeterGriffin]

Let us, or your attorney, know how that approach works out for you.

We can talk the letter of the law all day there, libertarian. I'm talking ethically and morally. If its OK to hit kids as a corrective tool, then who can't you hit?

Of course, the whole previous tale was to highlight the disconnect.

[CID_0687]

I will preface by saying that I am a spanker, I believe it serves it's purpose, and i believe if done properly it is an effective discipline method. I've never liked the idea of strangers approaching a parent b/c they swatted their kid once or twice for misbehaving.

However;

We have a day care at our gym, and i guess a little boy had gotten into trouble. As I was coming out of my aerobics class i could hear a kid(who sounded about 2yro) screaming and crying at the top of his lungs fllowed by 5 or 6 VERY loud slaps. I was about to knock on the door but instead decided to go to the front desk and let ''the worker'' know, but she did nothing but continue to read her book. I walked to the other locker room to stretch, came back down the same hall to see if anything was still going on. I get to the day care room and she's got him sitting in a time out corner hovering over him, which leads me to the conclusion that he got into trouble and they had called her.

It's just one of those feelings I can't shake. I wanted to go up to her and asked her if she needed any type of help or a break (this is the most deployed post, it's very likely her hubby is in iraq or afghanistan) but she had this look on her face that she didn't want to be messed with. Everytime she slapped him, she'd say ''shut your mouth'', now how the heck is he supposed to NOT cry when you're beating the crap out of him. Looking at the kid he looked between 19-24months. I just felt sad for him.
We spank our kids, 4 year old twins...It's not the only form of punishment we use we'll also put them in time out or take away their cartoon or toy privileges...We never spank them in public...simply because everybody is so frickin' PC nowadays and may cause a scene over it...if they're out of line when we're at the store we deal with it in the car, or put something back we may have been planning on buying for them.

We never spank them when we're very angry with them, because we may go overboard and hit them too much or too hard...My rule is one lick for each year...so they're 4, they get 4 licks...

For the most part though they're well behaved...we've probably had to spank both of them a total of 5 times...the revoking of toys and cartoons seems to be more effective.

Sounds like this lady was/is probably very stressed out and needed to cool off a little before disciplining the child.

[Hadassah]

Wow this is ****ed up.
how about the cops explain things and walk away.
Spanking is still abuse period. Your rights end at your fingertips.
The cops were wrong for sitting there and watching it.

Nope, spanking, if done properly, is not abuse. I know many people who work for CPS, my sister included and they all say the same thing.

[Hadassah]

I will preface by saying that I am a spanker, I believe it serves it's purpose, and i believe if done properly it is an effective discipline method. I've never liked the idea of strangers approaching a parent b/c they swatted their kid once or twice for misbehaving.

However;

We have a day care at our gym, and i guess a little boy had gotten into trouble. As I was coming out of my aerobics class i could hear a kid(who sounded about 2yro) screaming and crying at the top of his lungs fllowed by 5 or 6 VERY loud slaps. I was about to knock on the door but instead decided to go to the front desk and let ''the worker'' know, but she did nothing but continue to read her book. I walked to the other locker room to stretch, came back down the same hall to see if anything was still going on. I get to the day care room and she's got him sitting in a time out corner hovering over him, which leads me to the conclusion that he got into trouble and they had called her.

It's just one of those feelings I can't shake. I wanted to go up to her and asked her if she needed any type of help or a break (this is the most deployed post, it's very likely her hubby is in iraq or afghanistan) but she had this look on her face that she didn't want to be messed with. Everytime she slapped him, she'd say ''shut your mouth'', now how the heck is he supposed to NOT cry when you're beating the crap out of him. Looking at the kid he looked between 19-24months. I just felt sad for him.


That situation would raise red flags with me, too.

[Plasmaball]

I feel the same way about people who can't program computers. They are admitting that a piece of metal is smarter than they are. :whistle:

If you cant reason with a child what makes you think one can do it with an adult?

[Plasmaball]

Nope, spanking, if done properly, is not abuse. I know many people who work for CPS, my sister included and they all say the same thing.

And i can find 100 people who do think it is abuse.
there is no proper way in my view.
If yourself have issue being hit, then why would it be ok to touch your child?
Its a hypocrisy argument

[Plasmaball]

Actually parent's DO have that authority. Parents constantly make decisions for their children that their children do not give consent for. For instance you can get vaccinations for a child without their consent.

And you are wrong in doing so. Again, I doubt you have the presence to make anyone care. I know I certainly wouldn't.

You obviously haven't met some 2 and 3 year olds.

Having shots is not a form of abuse. It is not a negative answer to an action. No dice

Touch your child in that fashion and i can have social services come say hello.

sisters friends child is now 5. He is a terror based off the fact his mother is basically no better than his actions.
A lot of the times the term that wins out is: Do as i say not as i do.

like i said if i dont see it, thats one thing. I have zero respect for people who spank their kids for any reason.

Sure you may not care that i look that way at the spanker. Least i know i can talk to a kid/child and have them understand without putting my hand on them.

[Alan J]

Nope, spanking, if done properly, is not abuse. I know many people who work for CPS, my sister included and they all say the same thing.

Spanking, if done to an extent that it cannot be called abusive, is ineffective. Or, at least, no more effective than any non-physical disciplinary methods. If effective, it is most certainly abusive. There's no way around it.

[CID_0687]

And i can find 100 people who do think it is abuse.
there is no proper way in my view.
If yourself have issue being hit, then why would it be ok to touch your child?
Its a hypocrisy argument
And this is the very reason I don't discipline my kids in public. :rolleyes:

My parents used corporal punishment on me, not abuse, corporal punishment...I turned out fine, I don't resent them for spanking me...oh sure when I did get a spanking...and sometimes a good old fashioned ass beating I was upset with them...but no more upset than I was when I told my dad to "**** off" when I was 17 and had my car taken away for a month...I never got a whooping for something I didn't deserve, and looking back on it I deserved more than I actually got.

There are people who abuse their kids...folks who will haul off and smack the kid for no apparent reason...beat the kid uncontrollably, leaving marks all over their bodies...they are ****ed up individuals and deserve to be locked away....but simple discipline is no reason to accuse someone of child abuse.

My cousin's husband had DHR called on him because his little girl went to school and told the teacher her daddy spanked her that morning...no marks on her...no reason for alarms to go off...the kid misbehaved and got a spanking...It was a 2 month long investigation, until DHR finally decided they had no reason to believe he was abusive...Well no ****!! Instead of wasting time and tax dollars on him go and find the one that's really abusing their kids.

[fuzee]

If you cant reason with a child what makes you think one can do it with an adult?

Just a guess, but.....maybe, for the same reason you'd take away the keys to
the Bronco from your 4-yr-old, once he's had more than three beers? :wall:

Oddly enough, I once heard a similar argument to yours, made by a 34 yr-old man (??)
who had for some time, it was discovered, been having a carnal relationship with a neighbor's 14-yr-old daughter.

The best excuse he could offer -- "she consented."

Evidently, that fellow found it easier to "reason" with a child, than with an
adult....wouldn't you say?

But, that's one good example of why we should treat children a lot differently
than we treat adults.

[angelicmadrigal]

I know, I know -- you're one of those gals who doesn't evaluate her own worth
by such common standards, as....breeding!
Am I right?



Actually it's more I beleive if you aren't able to give 100% of yourself to your children you are doing them a disservice, so if you aren't willing or able to do that, then to me you're doing more harm than good.

[angelicmadrigal]

Touch your child in that fashion and i can have social services come say hello.


And unless you LIE, they won't do a damn thing about, because spanking in most states is still LEGAL, and not considered child abuse by any means by most Social Service Professionals.

[GA_LP]

Touch your child in that fashion and i can have social services come say hello.
File that false report in GA and I'll have the police come visit you - filing a false report is a misdemeanor. Sign an official statement, its False Swearing - a felony. Be very careful where you tread when getting between a parent and a child.

[Gray]

File that false report in GA and I'll have the police come visit you - filing a false report is a misdemeanor. Sign an official statement, its False Swearing - a felony. Be very careful where you tread when getting between a parent and a child.

..and if I spend a night in jail they had better watch their back.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

I never understood why people would say, "Don't spank your child when you're angry."

So when WOULD you spank them? Of course you're angry when you spank a child. You should be. Perhaps you're not in a blinding rage, but I doubt you're feeling happy about it. If you are, then the kid's going to be ****ed up far worse than he'd be if you're smacking him while "angry".

[StoneScratcher]

Spanking, imo, should only be used if "No! Don't DO that!" doesn't work. It's about the verb DO. For example, if a toddler cannot grasp that chewing on the electric cord is dangerous, and no amount of explaining is going to make them understand (because they don't get electricity and shocks yet), then a little tapping on the top of the hand with the cord still in it will let them see that the cord is harmful. Spanking shouldn't go to the bum, the face, or any other part but the hand, and only for dangers the child may be DOING that they don't understand.

Never spank for "thought" or "words" or "concepts" or "beliefs", etc. The nontangibles. I believe every child should be able to grow thinking freely.

As for any parent that whallops a child as punishment because that child may have infringed on their freedoms, I say, heck, if you didn't want your freedoms infringed upon, you shouldn't have had kids. Children are a parent's responsibility to protect and guide. And although a parent may have to sacrifice their freedom to go out with the guys/gals so they can stay home with their sick child, well, welcome to being a parent.

Also, I cannot stand anyone, from teachers, the public, neighbors, or nosey poseys getting involved with how a parent should raise their child.

Parents have their beliefs in what should/shouldn't be done and have full perspective of the big picture.

If I saw a child being spanked on the bum, I'd be upset, you bet I would. But I am not going to pull the parent's arm away--unless it is extreme, and none of what I'm talking about is abuse, by the way.

Also, I am a firm believer that no educational institution, nor any of its employees has any other job other than to teach what comes from the curriculum. That is their job, they work for taxpayers (in public schools), or they work for the parents who pay the tuition (in private schools).

No teacher or educational institution should ever be a replacement for parents, pediatricians, church, therapists, dieticians, the list goes on.

Teach what's in the book. Period.

Some parents allow the educational facility to raise their kids, feed their kids, play shrink to their kids, label their kids as "special needs" (which gets more $$ into the schools for faculty, buildings, etc).

Just some of my thoughts.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

And this is the very reason I don't discipline my kids in public. :rolleyes:

My parents used corporal punishment on me, not abuse, corporal punishment...I turned out fine, I don't resent them for spanking me...oh sure when I did get a spanking...and sometimes a good old fashioned ass beating I was upset with them...but no more upset than I was when I told my dad to "**** off" when I was 17 and had my car taken away for a month...I never got a whooping for something I didn't deserve, and looking back on it I deserved more than I actually got.

There are people who abuse their kids...folks who will haul off and smack the kid for no apparent reason...beat the kid uncontrollably, leaving marks all over their bodies...they are ****ed up individuals and deserve to be locked away....but simple discipline is no reason to accuse someone of child abuse.

My cousin's husband had DHR called on him because his little girl went to school and told the teacher her daddy spanked her that morning...no marks on her...no reason for alarms to go off...the kid misbehaved and got a spanking...It was a 2 month long investigation, until DHR finally decided they had no reason to believe he was abusive...Well no ****!! Instead of wasting time and tax dollars on him go and find the one that's really abusing their kids.
Cid, in your last two posts you state that taking away privileges is as effective or MORE effective than spanking.

[CID_0687]

Cid, in your last two posts you state that taking away privileges is as effective or MORE effective than spanking.
I have two kids, two completely different individuals...one of them I can simply look at in anger and she'll start balling...the other I could scream and holler at all day long and she wouldn't care less and continue doing what she's doing...both understand that getting a spanking isn't fun, as I stated earlier I haven't had to spank them that much at all, nor has my wife...so they know that when it comes to that we mean business....They also know that when Spongebob is cut off or the Barbie dolls are locked up that we mean business...I should not have said MORE effective but just as effective, because essentially it is...but my thoughts as a parent is that if I use the same line of punishment every time that eventually it won't work anymore and then I'll have to find another way to discipline my children...I know what works for my kids.

[Kazsirk]

As a child my step father used to abuse me and my three older sisters.

He was brutal and unfair and dishonest and cruel.

in public he acted like Ward Cleaver.

people thought he was Mr. Wonderful and and a great parent because we where all conditioned to be perfect robot kids.

if we screwed up in public in anyway he would put a hand on our shoulder lovingly in front of people and he would give it a little squeeze and that meant you are going to get it bad when we get home.

he never forgot.

I do discipline my sons from time to time and they are not perfect and they mostly get a talking to. I have gotten physical with a swat to the backside or a tap on the chest to get a child to listen but I am so careful to keep my anger far away from it.

My step monster would beat us with a belt and call us names and we would have to admit the issue and call ourselves by the name he used and it was never short of a two hour ordeal and sometimes an all day or even next day event.

One time I told on him after a really bad weekend and the person told him and the beating I recieved from that was the worst ever and my sisters all got beat just to dare them to ever tell on him again.

It was a grizzley chapter of my life.

People sticking their nose in only harms the kid more. because it takes a near death experience to take the kid away from the abuser and they usually get custody back in a few months.

Better is to love the kid and tell them they are going to win if they can keep a good attitude and get these years behind them.

My mother was completely blind to our abuse, later I realized how impossible it was for her to be so unaware and oblivious and it became clear to me that she was avoiding his wrath on herself and letting this idiot have at us.

What a peach.

in the end he molested and abused my sisters and beat me into submission for the first 14 years of my life and then I clocked him one day with a broom handle in the back of his scull and it broke, after he beat me up and locked me in the basement and he never hit me again. He probably feared that if I could do that then he was not safe hitting me anymore (he always was a coward)

My mom divorced him when I was 25 (when the abuse came to her because he had no kids to pick on) I just shook my head and said "whatever!" nice to be so selfish to let us take it but get out when it came to her.

I don't know her anymore she is out of my life and he is remarried in Arizona somewhere.

I survived that mess of a life and I have healthy kids and a good marriage and a ministry.

the government is not the answer to this problem.
good people reaching out to the kids is the only way to help the kids.

Seeking God helps the kids because they need to believe that someone powerful loves them.

I see some people in ministry that I suspect abuse children and I tell them my story (in more detail than here) and I believe that God uses my testimony to make them chill out. I love thier kids in front of them and tell thm that God loves them and they are so important to him.

I can not hate the abusers because most of them where themselves abused.

[RTchoke]

I have two kids, two completely different individuals...one of them I can simply look at in anger and she'll start balling...the other I could scream and holler at all day long and she wouldn't care less and continue doing what she's doing...both understand that getting a spanking isn't fun, as I stated earlier I haven't had to spank them that much at all, nor has my wife...so they know that when it comes to that we mean business....They also know that when Spongebob is cut off or the Barbie dolls are locked up that we mean business...I should not have said MORE effective but just as effective, because essentially it is...but my thoughts as a parent is that if I use the same line of punishment every time that eventually it won't work anymore and then I'll have to find another way to discipline my children...I know what works for my kids.

All it takes is taking away Spongebob or Barbie dolls? Dang, you are lucky. :razz: We seriously took everything except the bed, dresser and lamp out of DD's room after many repeated tries of withholding just favored items not working. We had told her next time, it was everything. Like your DD it didn't faze her a bit. She could have cared less. It did not stop the behavior and it gave her one more thing to taunt with. "nya, nya, you took it all awaaaaaaaaay and IIIIIIIIII doooooooooooo'nt caaaaaaaaaaaaare. ha ha" sort of a thing. It finally took a swat on the butt to wake her up the next time. Unless they are your children and you see their behavior 24/7 you have no idea what works or doesn't work with someone else's child and it really burns me when people try to tell me how I should discipline my kids. They don't know them, they don't deal with them all the time and they don;t know their discipline history.

People who tell me, you should just take away her favorite toy, that will get her attention stand speechless when I tell them we took everything away and she still didn't care. For some kids that just doesn't work every time just as spanking doesn't work every time and is not our go to first form of punishment.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

I have two kids, two completely different individuals...one of them I can simply look at in anger and she'll start balling...the other I could scream and holler at all day long and she wouldn't care less and continue doing what she's doing...both understand that getting a spanking isn't fun, as I stated earlier I haven't had to spank them that much at all, nor has my wife...so they know that when it comes to that we mean business....They also know that when Spongebob is cut off or the Barbie dolls are locked up that we mean business...I should not have said MORE effective but just as effective, because essentially it is...but my thoughts as a parent is that if I use the same line of punishment every time that eventually it won't work anymore and then I'll have to find another way to discipline my children...I know what works for my kids.

Just so you know, I wasn't presuming to tell you how to discipline your kids.

[CID_0687]

Just so you know, I wasn't presuming to tell you how to discipline your kids.
I didn't think you were...I was just stating that I know what works for my kids...and I'm sure all good parents do...I think we can all agree on children have to be disciplined and we have to find the way that is effective for the individual child.

[CID_0687]

All it takes is taking away Spongebob or Barbie dolls? Dang, you are lucky. :razz: We seriously took everything except the bed, dresser and lamp out of DD's room after many repeated tries of withholding just favored items not working. We had told her next time, it was everything. Like your DD it didn't faze her a bit. She could have cared less. It did not stop the behavior and it gave her one more thing to taunt with. "nya, nya, you took it all awaaaaaaaaay and IIIIIIIIII doooooooooooo'nt caaaaaaaaaaaaare. ha ha" sort of a thing. It finally took a swat on the butt to wake her up the next time. Unless they are your children and you see their behavior 24/7 you have no idea what works or doesn't work with someone else's child and it really burns me when people try to tell me how I should discipline my kids. They don't know them, they don't deal with them all the time and they don;t know their discipline history.

People who tell me, you should just take away her favorite toy, that will get her attention stand speechless when I tell them we took everything away and she still didn't care. For some kids that just doesn't work every time just as spanking doesn't work every time and is not our go to first form of punishment.
That's exactly right...one of the big things our kids like is watching Disney movies...usually between supper and story/bedtime we'll let them pick out a movie and they get to sit on the "Big Bed" and watch it...If they've been misbehaving they don't get to do that, it tears them up...Mimi has tried to buck us on it a couple of times though, like you mentioned with your child...but when she finds out that Nanner still gets to watch the movie and she doesn't her tune changes, she has to go to her room...Sometimes the Spongebob and Barbie deal works, sometimes the movie deal works...Timeout has only worked once or twice...they seem to think it's a game, for the most part...and spanking works, but as you said, it's hardly ever the first option.

[angelicmadrigal]

So when WOULD you spank them?

You don't have to be angry to spank a kid. You do it to make a point, and if you aren't calm enough to think about the point you're trying to make or why you're spanking the kid then you probably aren't in a place to be doing it.

[Justus]

And i can find 100 people who do think it is abuse.
there is no proper way in my view.
If yourself have issue being hit, then why would it be ok to touch your child?
Its a hypocrisy argument

that's because they're libs who couldn't fathom any sort of real abuse, they had their hippie parents tell them they were perfect and they could never do anything wrong.

I grew up in a very traditional Mexican family. Go watch the George Lopez 'Why you cryin' comedy special and that's pretty much my childhood.

I remember most of the bad ones, I remember watching TV from outside the window of the neighbors house, got the metal hanger to the bare butt :))

Another time ate over what I was supposed to, I was forced to eat ramen noodles until I felt like throwing up

Another was when I stole a neighbors soda, got smacked hard on the tips of my fingers, hurt bad.

AND another way I got in trouble was coming home late from playing outside, I got a swift kick in the legs.


All of them being when I was under 10 years of age, by the time I was 11 I was pretty much a perfect little kid that always did what he was told. Of course there was a few hormonal outbreaks.
--

I spanked a few times, it seemed to work most of the time. Now I just tell them to do push ups. (got from someone, forgot who) It works like a charm.

It's my business what I do; and don't pull the morals and ethics card either, why do liberals only get to decide what's morally and ethically right? I think gay marriage is morally and ethically wrong. How is spanking my child hurting you personally, at all?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re5YTuJXDaA&feature=related

perfect example of my childhood, ha!

[StoneScratcher]

You don't have to be angry to spank a kid. You do it to make a point, and if you aren't calm enough to think about the point you're trying to make or why you're spanking the kid then you probably aren't in a place to be doing it.

"You do it to make a point"?

And what point is so important that pain is needed to make it?

Other than to explain harm/injury/death from an inanimate object, such as a child sticking a pin into an outlet and you smack their hand if they don't get "No! Don't do that!", what point?

There's something about inflicting pain that just gets to me, especially when it comes from a loved one.

Do you spank your child(ren) for lying? Disobeying? Backtalking? Stealing? Fighting? Getting bad grades? Disrespecting you? Swearing?

What is the benefit of inflicting pain to to a child? Will inflicting pain help the child see their behaviors for what they are? Or will it make them FEAR you, or FEAR that behavior?

Do you want to permanently stifle your child from disobeying through fear of it?
The same with backtaking...stealing...fighting...getting bad grades...disrespecting you...swearing? Do you want to have your child FEAR these behaviors? And never do them again?

If a child grows up, for example, and is told in college they must do something which is against their belief, and if they don't they will get a bad grade and will fail the course, should they do it because they fear getting a bad grade? Because they FEAR getting a bad grade--they were punished for it.

Should a parent punish and spank the "FIGHT" out of a child permanently?

[CID_0687]

"You do it to make a point"?

And what point is so important that pain is needed to make it?

Other than to explain harm/injury/death from an inanimate object, such as a child sticking a pin into an outlet and you smack their hand if they don't get "No! Don't do that!", what point?

There's something about inflicting pain that just gets to me, especially when it comes from a loved one.

Do you spank your child(ren) for lying? Disobeying? Backtalking? Stealing? Fighting? Getting bad grades? Disrespecting you? Swearing?

What is the benefit of inflicting pain to to a child? Will inflicting pain help the child see their behaviors for what they are? Or will it make them FEAR you, or FEAR that behavior?

Do you want to permanently stifle your child from disobeying through fear of it?
The same with backtaking...stealing...fighting...getting bad grades...disrespecting you...swearing? Do you want to have your child FEAR these behaviors? And never do them again?

If a child grows up, for example, and is told in college they must do something which is against their belief, and if they don't they will get a bad grade and will fail the course, should they do it because they fear getting a bad grade? Because they FEAR getting a bad grade--they were punished for it.

Should a parent punish and spank the "FIGHT" out of a child permanently?
I'd just like to say.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[jimjames418]

Spanking, if done to an extent that it cannot be called abusive, is ineffective. Or, at least, no more effective than any non-physical disciplinary methods. If effective, it is most certainly abusive. There's no way around it.
You find a two or three year old playing with an electrical out let, trying to stick something in the openings. I found that a good slap on the rear end, hard to make it feel through the diaper, is the best method to get their attention. Then explain to them why it is not a good idea to stick things in there.

To make a lesson stick, you have to get their attention first.

[GA_LP]

You find a two or three year old playing with an electrical out let, trying to stick something in the openings. I found that a good slap on the rear end, hard to make it feel through the diaper, is the best method to get their attention. Then explain to them why it is not a good idea to stick things in there.

To make a lesson stick, you have to get their attention first.I have always refered to that as the Butt-Brain Reset Button.

[Hadassah]

And i can find 100 people who do think it is abuse.
there is no proper way in my view.
If yourself have issue being hit, then why would it be ok to touch your child?
Its a hypocrisy argument

#1 I'm a nurse and I am (unfortunately) all too well versed in what is abuse and what isn't. Spanking is not abuse.

#2 I was an abused child and I know the difference between a "proper" spanking and abuse, and even an abusive spanking. (Yes, spanking can be abusive, but that depends on how the spanking is done. It does not mean spanking is always abusive.)

[Gray]

You find a two or three year old playing with an electrical out let, trying to stick something in the openings. I found that a good slap on the rear end, hard to make it feel through the diaper, is the best method to get their attention. Then explain to them why it is not a good idea to stick things in there.

To make a lesson stick, you have to get their attention first.

The "impact" is quite often not physical but emotional.

These kids will sometimes squall and cry not because it hurt but because they were challenged.

[StoneScratcher]

I'd just like to say.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Interesting. Are your six :rolleyes: symbolizing smacks to my post? Or something else?

[BillyBobUSA]

I never understood why people would say, "Don't spank your child when you're angry."

So when WOULD you spank them? Of course you're angry when you spank a child. You should be. Perhaps you're not in a blinding rage, but I doubt you're feeling happy about it. If you are, then the kid's going to be ****ed up far worse than he'd be if you're smacking him while "angry".

OMG, I am agreeing with Emma.

Got to get another shot of Quervo...maybe 4.

[Gray]

consider this....


The opinion of Those here who think spanking is abuse should be ignored in this.

Since ANY spanking IS abuse....

....their opinion is biased and worthless.

[traditional_woman]

Back to my tpic LOL.

When i went in yesterday, i asked the worker about her, and that it was on my mind that same night. She said that some kids need that and some kids don't. She said that she called his mom in b/c he's always terrorizing the little kids, hitting them and yelling at them etc. She also told me that she is joining the army and that he is going to his grandmas house while she goes to basic(i wn't even express how i feel about that:rolleyes:)

So either the kid terrorizes other kids b/c he is being abused, or he is just one of those kids who are,hmm...strong willed, and more hardheaded than your average kid, and mom became frustrated and embarassed, hence taking him in the restroom.

[BillyBobUSA]

consider this....


The opinion of Those here who think spanking is abuse should be ignored in this.

Since ANY spanking IS abuse....

....their opinion is biased and worthless.


Was that supposed to make ANY sense at all?

[BillyBobUSA]

Back to my tpic LOL.

When i went in yesterday, i asked the worker about her, and that it was on my mind that same night. She said that some kids need that and some kids don't. She said that she called his mom in b/c he's always terrorizing the little kids, hitting them and yelling at them etc. She also told me that she is joining the army and that he is going to his grandmas house while she goes to basic(i wn't even express how i feel about that:rolleyes:)

So either the kid terrorizes other kids b/c he is being abused, or he is just one of those kids who are,hmm...strong willed, and more hardheaded than your average kid, and mom became frustrated and embarassed, hence taking him in the restroom.


HAve you considered getting a hobby to occupy all this free time you have?

[traditional_woman]

HAve you considered getting a hobby to occupy all this free time you have?

Hi Billybob:)

You have 2,000 more posts than me! How are you doing? Fine I hope.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Back to my tpic LOL.

When i went in yesterday, i asked the worker about her, and that it was on my mind that same night. She said that some kids need that and some kids don't. She said that she called his mom in b/c he's always terrorizing the little kids, hitting them and yelling at them etc. She also told me that she is joining the army and that he is going to his grandmas house while she goes to basic(i wn't even express how i feel about that:rolleyes:)

So either the kid terrorizes other kids b/c he is being abused, or he is just one of those kids who are,hmm...strong willed, and more hardheaded than your average kid, and mom became frustrated and embarassed, hence taking him in the restroom.

This is the same kid you guessed to be 18-24 months? I don't think they have the cognitive ability at that age to "terrorize". Something is amiss. That child is acting out, and I suspect it has to do with Dad being deployed and Mom on her way too. Doesn't sound like he has a lot of stability going on right now.

[NascarGirl2448]

consider this....


The opinion of Those here who think spanking is abuse should be ignored in this.

Since ANY spanking IS abuse....

....their opinion is biased and worthless.

The same could be said of the ones who advocate spanking.

[BillyBobUSA]

Hi Billybob:)

You have 2,000 more posts than me! How are you doing? Fine I hope.


Doing OK, I guess.

And you?

[CID_0687]

Interesting. Are your six :rolleyes: symbolizing smacks to my post? Or something else?
Nobody has the right to tell anyone how to raise their children...so as long as what the person does is not harmful to the child...and a spanking is not harmful.

Your post was ridiculous.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Nobody has the right to tell anyone how to raise their children...so as long as what the person does is not harmful to the child...and a spanking is not harmful.

Your post was ridiculous.

Well, not directed toward you necessarily, but the "pro-spankers" often feel they have the right to tell those who oppose it that their kids are going to end up as sociopaths or whatever. I agree with stone in that spanking should be limited to an immediate physical danger.

[BillyBobUSA]

Well, not directed toward you necessarily, but the "pro-spankers" often feel they have the right to tell those who oppose it that their kids are going to end up as sociopaths or whatever. I agree with stone in that spanking should be limited to an immediate physical danger.

And you have every right to your opinion, just dont force it on us via law.

Personally, I think that spanking is natures way of passing high priority limitations to our kids.

If the child says a cuss word, maybe you lecture them, the second time maybe a swat on the butt or ground them if they are older.

If they spew a torrent of foul language at the dear old lady down the street who goes to church every day of the week and who you have never heard a harsh word come from her mouth in your life... well simply grounding them would be inappropriate IMO.

I would want them to understand that certain actions are not tolerated at all under any circumstances and evoke an immediate and harsh punitive reaction. Teaching ones children that some things are totally unacceptable is one responsibility of a parent, and sometimes a calm tone and easy hand implies the opposite of what one should treach them.

But you do whatever you feel like doing and let me raise my kids as I think I should as well.

[CID_0687]

Well, not directed toward you necessarily, but the "pro-spankers" often feel they have the right to tell those who oppose it that their kids are going to end up as sociopaths or whatever. I agree with stone in that spanking should be limited to an immediate physical danger.
Funny...the anti-spankers say the same thing. :think:

Bottom line is as long as a child isn't being injured physically, mentally or any other way then it is nobody's damn business how someone raises and disciplines their children.

[BillyBobUSA]

Funny...the anti-spankers say the same thing. :think:

Bottom line is as long as a child isn't being injured physically, mentally or any other way then it is nobody's damn business how someone raises and disciplines their children.


But then the libruls will just expand the meaning of the word 'injured' to include anything under Gods Blue Sky, you know kind of like the interstate commerce clause, lol.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Funny...the anti-spankers say the same thing. :think:

Bottom line is as long as a child isn't being injured physically, mentally or any other way then it is nobody's damn business how someone raises and disciplines their children.
yup

[CID_0687]

yup
A liberal and a conservative agreeing on something...miracles really do happen.

:lol:

[FeralFemale]

I used to be on the fence about this....maybe a swat on the hand if (i.e.) the child reaches for the hot stove, sharp knife, etc.

Then I witnessed something.

It was Thanksgiving. I was at my uncle's house. He had 5 or 6 kids and all of them had children, so Thanksgiving wasn't a sit-down meal -- it was a buffet with paper plates and the like.

Uncle had a big garbage can in the kitchen. Everyone had thrown out their paper plates in the garbage can. There was all kinds of food in there, too, from the people whose eyes were bigger than their stomach.

My cousin's two year old kept going over to the garbage, getting into it, and trying to eat the left over food. He had his own plate, but, for some reason, wanted this thrown out food.

He was the first born grandchild and very loved. Maybe a bit spoiled?

Each time he went over to the garbage, his mother, grandmother, grandfather, etc, would gently lead him away and tell him, "No!" and explain to him why what he was doiing was not acceptable.

Didn't matter. He kept going to the garbage and trying to eat the food in there.

Finally, my other cousin's fiance got up, walked over to the child, said "NO!" in a commanding voice and swatted him on the rear end. It was hard enough to get the child's attention, but soft enough that his diaper protected him from feeling any of it.

Let me tell you...that kid never went near the garbage again.

Spanking is only a tool. If used correctly, it is very effective. Especially with children who are too young to be reasoned with. If they are old enough to be talked too, then it is not effective. But if they are very young, I think it is one of the few ways to get through to them.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

A liberal and a conservative agreeing on something...miracles really do happen.

:lol:

lol

Well, some choose to spank their kids. That's their choice. My oldest daughter has never laid a hand on her two boys, and they are the most well-behaved kids you'd ever want to meet. And I've known countless others who are the same. That's why I get a little irritated when the subject comes up and (predictably) you hear about how these kids are going to end up as hellions, or worse.

[StoneScratcher]

Nobody has the right to tell anyone how to raise their children...so as long as what the person does is not harmful to the child...and a spanking is not harmful.

Your post was ridiculous.

Um??? You need to go back and read the two or three posts I wrote. Read them in their entirety. Absorb the words and then show where I ever said I told anyone how to raise their children? Where? Quote it specifically, and in context. Where?

Spanking, for teaching of an outside harm or danger, imo is okay, but only on the wrist or hand (some people use the bum). No face, no other body part, just a smack to show that what they are doing or playing with is a danger.

If you smack your kid because it's payback for disobedience to your rules and regulations, then that's the kind of kid you want to raise. Someone who obeys authority. Fine then. Is this "training" through punishment about teaching the child something that helps the child grow into a free-thinking individual, or is it about the parent(s)' ego(s)?

Talk is better, understanding why a child disobeys and explaining why you think your choice for them is better might just lead to you understanding or learning, what you think is right for your child, may in fact be wrong. And this is where the ego of the parent is completely not the uppermost issue in the conversation.

It's not about a parent being RIGHT. It's what is right for any given situation. And maybe that disobedience by a child may cause an emotionally mature parent to realize, they were wrong, and those emotionally mature parents may see things through their child's eyes, instead of their own.

Some want to smack their kids into submission, making them dependent on others to tell them what to do, what to say, how to act. Then when they go to public school, or if they are in public school, or work, or vote, they always seek out someone to FOLLOW.

American's should raise LEADERS, not conformists to our own personal regimes.

Grow up.

[CID_0687]

Um??? You need to go back and read the two or three posts I wrote. Read them in their entirety. Absorb the words and then show where I ever said I told anyone how to raise their children? Where? Quote it specifically, and in context. Where?

Spanking, for teaching of an outside harm or danger, imo is okay, but only on the wrist or hand (some people use the bum). No face, no other body part, just a smack to show that what they are doing or playing with is a danger.

If you smack your kid because it's payback for disobedience to your rules and regulations, then that's the kind of kid you want to raise. Someone who obeys authority. Fine then. Is this "training" through punishment about teaching the child something that helps the child grow into a free-thinking individual, or is it about the parent(s)' ego(s)?

Talk is better, understanding why a child disobeys and explaining why you think your choice for them is better might just lead to you understanding or learning, what you think is right for your child, may in fact be wrong. And this is where the ego of the parent is completely not the uppermost issue in the conversation.

It's not about a parent being RIGHT. It's what is right for any given situation. And maybe that disobedience by a child may cause an emotionally mature parent to realize, they were wrong, and those emotionally mature parents may see things through their child's eyes, instead of their own.

Some want to smack their kids into submission, making them dependent on others to tell them what to do, what to say, how to act. Then when they go to public school, or if they are in public school, or work, or vote, they always seek out someone to FOLLOW.

American's should raise LEADERS, not conformists to our own personal regimes.

Grow up.
Do you even understand the things you post?

I'm done.

[sgtmac_46]

Well, I think we all can say that children of the 40's & 50's & 60's were much less disiplined and acted worse than the children that were in the days following, where parnents decided to never put a hand to the butts. Rights?

Touche.....

[sgtmac_46]

Judging by what you have said, I think you should have called someone to report the woman for child abuse. He's a little defenseless kid and you - his only hope - chose to stay out of it. Yes, because as we know, the answer to every problem is the involvement of a bureaucracy. ;)

It is dangerous the notion that involvement of a government agency in every personal issue is somehow an answer that often isn't more damaging than the problem.

[sgtmac_46]

lol

Well, some choose to spank their kids. That's their choice. My oldest daughter has never laid a hand on her two boys, and they are the most well-behaved kids you'd ever want to meet. And I've known countless others who are the same. That's why I get a little irritated when the subject comes up and (predictably) you hear about how these kids are going to end up as hellions, or worse.

Children are different.......some respond well to forms of discipline that would not remotely effect others. That your oldest daughter has two well behaved boys is likely as much a result of genetics as never having been spanked. Some people are born laid back and cooperative by nature. Other people are born head strong and highly driven.

Knowing that one method does not work on all children is why I get irritated when the subject comes up. Some children should not be spanked, owing to their nature, while others need spanked in the most desperate way.

Spanking SHOULD, however, be a decision made dispassionately based on the needs of the child and the situation at hand......unfortunately human beings often engage in it in the heat of passion.

I believe it is dispassionate corporal punishment that is the key to why it was more effective in earlier eras.......fathers administered such spankings with a cold dispassionate nature that made children fear punishment.......whereas a woman half-maddened by her own emotions administering it doesn't remotely have the same righteous effect........when fathers of earlier era did it, it had the tone of righteous punishment.........now it has the tone of venting on a child......and venting on a child I do not condone.

[sgtmac_46]

Some want to smack their kids into submission, making them dependent on others to tell them what to do, what to say, how to act. Then when they go to public school, or if they are in public school, or work, or vote, they always seek out someone to FOLLOW.

American's should raise LEADERS, not conformists to our own personal regimes.

Grow up. Before one can learn to lead, one must FIRST learn to FOLLOW!

[Apatriot]

I worked with someone who had lived in Boise. They spanked their child one night after an episode that involved disrespect, name calling, door slamming shouting and hitting etc. (from the child mind you, not the parents :razz:)

She told her teacher the next day. Guess who got a call and visit from Children's Services after it was reported?

Guess it's different in some cases. :confused:


Depends on the state. Georgia is obviously a spanking state, while Idaho isn't.

[CID_0687]

Children are different.......some respond well to forms of discipline that would not remotely effect others. That your oldest daughter has two well behaved boys is likely as much a result of genetics as never having been spanked. Some people are born laid back and cooperative by nature. Other people are born head strong and highly driven.

Knowing that one method does not work on all children is why I get irritated when the subject comes up. Some children should not be spanked, owing to their nature, while others need spanked in the most desperate way.

Spanking SHOULD, however, be a decision made dispassionately based on the needs of the child and the situation at hand......unfortunately human beings often engage in it in the heat of passion.

I believe it is dispassionate corporal punishment that is the key to why it was more effective in earlier eras.......fathers administered such spankings with a cold dispassionate nature that made children fear punishment.......whereas a woman half-maddened by her own emotions administering it doesn't remotely have the same righteous effect........when fathers of earlier era did it, it had the tone of righteous punishment.........now it has the tone of venting on a child......and venting on a child I do not condone.
Couldn't agree with you more Sarge.

When I was growing up my dad worked out of town quite a bit...I'd get in trouble at school or with Mom and the Mom would call him up...I'd get a stern talking to, which was pretty upsetting, and he'd go ahead and let me know that when he got home that weekend that I would be punished...He'd get home on Friday we'd have a great time, Saturday we'd go fishing, or go out to breakfast...we'd spend all day watching football or something on Sunday, and then before I'd go to bed on Sunday night, "Oh you didn't think I forgot did you?"

Then he'd follow me back to my bedroom, give me a couple of licks with his belt...I knew not to make that mistake again.

It didn't take very many of those to learn...as I got older I could have probably used that a few more times......

[Apatriot]

helped raise my little sister who is 12 now. Never had to spank her. Nor did my mother.I NEVER had to nor will i have to hit a child to get them to listen.

The day i can not out think a little child and have to hit them, is the day i pack it up and walk away.
^^thats what i think of spanker's. Resort to hitting because they can't out think the child.
It depends on the child. Some can be raised without spanking or with minimal spanking. Others cannot. Spanking is just one tool of many that are used in instilling discipline. As long as it's not misused, it shouldn't be taken away from parents. Human beings are physical creatures. Sometimes they need physical punishments.

[Apatriot]

We can talk the letter of the law all day there, libertarian. I'm talking ethically and morally. If its OK to hit kids as a corrective tool, then who can't you hit?

You can't hit equals. Your wife is your equal, at least in the eyes of the law. Your minor children are not.

Spanking animals (or more precisely swatting their nose) works to curb certain types of animal behavior.

[Apatriot]

Spanking, imo, should only be used if "No! Don't DO that!" doesn't work. It's about the verb DO. For example, if a toddler cannot grasp that chewing on the electric cord is dangerous, and no amount of explaining is going to make them understand (because they don't get electricity and shocks yet), then a little tapping on the top of the hand with the cord still in it will let them see that the cord is harmful. Spanking shouldn't go to the bum, the face, or any other part but the hand, and only for dangers the child may be DOING that they don't understand.

Never spank for "thought" or "words" or "concepts" or "beliefs", etc. The nontangibles. I believe every child should be able to grow thinking freely.

I disagree. I won't punish kids for beliefs, but I will for them expressing undesirable things. Children don't have carte blanche to say what they want. I punish the use of bad words (i.e. profanity), being disrespectful to others verbally, and defiance. (In this case, punishment is generally biting a bar of Ivory soap).

[StoneScratcher]

Before one can learn to lead, one must FIRST learn to FOLLOW!

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you say someone follows due to being smacked upside of the head.

And I say someone follows because they respect, trust, and do not fear where they are lead.

So who (which child) do you predict will be the most likely to become an effective leader* themselves?

*not dictator, so to speak.

[StoneScratcher]

I disagree. I won't punish kids for beliefs, but I will for them expressing undesirable things. Children don't have carte blanche to say what they want. I punish the use of bad words (i.e. profanity), being disrespectful to others verbally, and defiance. (In this case, punishment is generally biting a bar of Ivory soap).

Well you're the parent.

And by the way, not even that soap is 100% pure.

[StoneScratcher]

Children are different.......some respond well to forms of discipline that would not remotely effect others. That your oldest daughter has two well behaved boys is likely as much a result of genetics as never having been spanked. Some people are born laid back and cooperative by nature. Other people are born head strong and highly driven.

Knowing that one method does not work on all children is why I get irritated when the subject comes up. Some children should not be spanked, owing to their nature, while others need spanked in the most desperate way.

Spanking SHOULD, however, be a decision made dispassionately based on the needs of the child and the situation at hand......unfortunately human beings often engage in it in the heat of passion.

I believe it is dispassionate corporal punishment that is the key to why it was more effective in earlier eras.......fathers administered such spankings with a cold dispassionate nature that made children fear punishment.......whereas a woman half-maddened by her own emotions administering it doesn't remotely have the same righteous effect........when fathers of earlier era did it, it had the tone of righteous punishment.........now it has the tone of venting on a child......and venting on a child I do not condone.

Where is the most passionate part of any individual's life if not found in their child(ren)?

Surely each child born into this strange world relies on that devoted passion as they get their footing in all this wordly crap.

[StoneScratcher]

Do you even understand the things you post?

I'm done.

Okay there, cowboy.

[Apatriot]

"You do it to make a point"?

And what point is so important that pain is needed to make it?

Other than to explain harm/injury/death from an inanimate object, such as a child sticking a pin into an outlet and you smack their hand if they don't get "No! Don't do that!", what point?

There's something about inflicting pain that just gets to me, especially when it comes from a loved one.

The biological purpose of pain is to cause a change in behavior. That is what it evolved for.

Do you spank your child(ren) for lying? Disobeying? Backtalking? Stealing? Fighting? Getting bad grades? Disrespecting you? Swearing?

Spanking is for physical things and refusal to take any other consequence.

For lying, big guilt trip along with grounding.

Disobeying, depends.

Backtalking--soap.

Stealing--(hasn't been an issue), but theoretically, return of item+restitution of item's worth via manual labor.

Fighting--that could involve a spanking.

Bad grades--loss of privileges

Disrespecting--soap and probably loss of privileges

Swearing--soap


What is the benefit of inflicting pain to to a child? Will inflicting pain help the child see their behaviors for what they are? Or will it make them FEAR you, or FEAR that behavior?
There is a small amount of fear of me that is relayed. However, most is relayed to the behavior. However, that same fear applies to any type of punishment, not just physical ones.

Do you want to permanently stifle your child from disobeying through fear of it?
The same with backtaking...stealing...fighting...getting bad grades...disrespecting you...swearing? Do you want to have your child FEAR these behaviors? And never do them again?

If a child grows up, for example, and is told in college they must do something which is against their belief, and if they don't they will get a bad grade and will fail the course, should they do it because they fear getting a bad grade? Because they FEAR getting a bad grade--they were punished for it.

Not a good scenario. I've never heard of it happening in real life.

Should a parent punish and spank the "FIGHT" out of a child permanently?

To a limited degree, yes. People with too much fight can't hold down jobs or work with others. Kids need to learn how to control their own behavior, and some of that involves learning to shut their mouth and not saying/doing everything they want when they want. As the old saying goes, "Discretion is the better part of valor."

[Apatriot]

Um??? You need to go back and read the two or three posts I wrote. Read them in their entirety. Absorb the words and then show where I ever said I told anyone how to raise their children? Where? Quote it specifically, and in context. Where?

Spanking, for teaching of an outside harm or danger, imo is okay, but only on the wrist or hand (some people use the bum). No face, no other body part, just a smack to show that what they are doing or playing with is a danger.

If you smack your kid because it's payback for disobedience to your rules and regulations, then that's the kind of kid you want to raise. Someone who obeys authority. Fine then. Is this "training" through punishment about teaching the child something that helps the child grow into a free-thinking individual, or is it about the parent(s)' ego(s)?

Talk is better, understanding why a child disobeys and explaining why you think your choice for them is better might just lead to you understanding or learning, what you think is right for your child, may in fact be wrong. And this is where the ego of the parent is completely not the uppermost issue in the conversation.

It's not about a parent being RIGHT. It's what is right for any given situation. And maybe that disobedience by a child may cause an emotionally mature parent to realize, they were wrong, and those emotionally mature parents may see things through their child's eyes, instead of their own.

Some want to smack their kids into submission, making them dependent on others to tell them what to do, what to say, how to act. Then when they go to public school, or if they are in public school, or work, or vote, they always seek out someone to FOLLOW.

American's should raise LEADERS, not conformists to our own personal regimes.

Grow up.

Leaders have to have self discipline. Allowing a child to make their own rules does not produce self discipline, it produces a narcissist at best, a sociopath at worst.

[Apatriot]

Well you're the parent.

And by the way, not even that soap is 100% pure.

Well, at the dosages ingested, it doesn't really matter. Low dosages of soap are harmless. Ivory was chosen, because that is the brand we use.

[RTchoke]

Depends on the state. Georgia is obviously a spanking state, while Idaho isn't.

Technically there is no "ban" on it.

From the statute:

Abuse includes physical cruelty in excess of that required for reasonable disciplinary purposes, inflicted by a parent or other person in whom legal custody is vested.

But people have been cited for it anyway.

[StoneScratcher]

Leaders have to have self discipline. Allowing a child to make their own rules does not produce self discipline, it produces a narcissist at best, a sociopath at worst.

Where did I post a child makes their own rules? Where, specifically?

A sociopath/psychopath has no compassion, no empathy, nor the ability to re-kindle it if it even ever existed in them.

There is no cure for sociopathy, no drug, no "fix", nothing can change them into thinking about anything except in things and people that benefit them. They are like sharks, streamlined to think of only one thing: Survive. At all costs, survive.

There are many theories as to what creates a sociopath. Is it nature? Is it nurture? Or are they just "born that way"?

That word should not be thrown out lightly. Nor should it be beaten to death.

[Apatriot]

Where did I post a child makes their own rules? Where, specifically?

A sociopath/psychopath has no compassion, no empathy, nor the ability to re-kindle it if it even ever existed in them.

There is no cure for sociopathy, no drug, no "fix", nothing can change them into thinking about anything except in things and people that benefit them. They are like sharks, streamlined to think of only one thing: Survive. At all costs, survive.

There are many theories as to what creates a sociopath. Is it nature? Is it nurture? Or are they just "born that way"?

That word should not be thrown out lightly. Nor should it be beaten to death.

You said that children shouldn't be punished for not obeying parent's rules. To me that implies that they should be making their own rules.

IMHO, sociopathy is caused by both nature and nurture. Without both, it won't develop. I wasn't using it lightly.

[StoneScratcher]

You said that children shouldn't be punished for not obeying parent's rules. To me that implies that they should be making their own rules.

IMHO, sociopathy is caused by both nature and nurture. Without both, it won't develop. I wasn't using it lightly.

You base an entire reply on what you think I imply? Now, if I may, suppose I was your child? What do I do now? We are lucky to have written words to reference back to, but if you put a block of soap in my mouth, based on your implications, you would be wrong.

And I would disobey you by saying, I will NOT put soap in my mouth.

Not that I am making my own rules, but because, in fact, you were wrong.

About sociopathy? They have not firmly found where this evilness called sociopathy/psychopathy comes from. That is not my opinion.

Some of the most powerful dictators have been sociopathic.

[Apatriot]

You base an entire reply on what you think I imply? Now, if I may, suppose I was your child? What do I do now? We are lucky to have written words to reference back to, but if you put a block of soap in my mouth, based on your implications, you would be wrong.

And I would disobey you by saying, I will NOT put soap in my mouth.

Not that I am making my own rules, but because, in fact, you were wrong.

Now I think I understand. I have a question. Let's say that I do have a set of rules that I have written down, and have discussed in detail with my children. For an example, I 'll just say, that the 4th rule is: Cursing is wrong. You cannot use the following words: (we'll stick to using the 7 words you can never say on television). To continue the example, my oldest decides to tell his Grandmother to go **** herself. I'm a fair person, so I do listen to their side before dealing out a punishment. He says she was irritating him by asking him questions. What would you do?

I'm punishing him with the soap, and having to apologize, and possibly some more restitution.


About sociopathy? They have not firmly found where this evilness called sociopathy/psychopathy comes from. That is not my opinion.

Some of the most powerful dictators have been sociopathic.

The causes for most mental illness are not defined. My general observation, though, is that a combination of nature (i.e. genetics) and nurture (environment) are responsible. Otherwise all that go through the same experiences would have similar mental health. That is definitely not true.

[sgtmac_46]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you say someone follows due to being smacked upside of the head.

And I say someone follows because they respect, trust, and do not fear where they are lead.

So who (which child) do you predict will be the most likely to become an effective leader* themselves?

*not dictator, so to speak. Fear is part of respect. One can be disliked AND respected.......just as one can be liked AND disrespected........the later happens all the time these days......where parents set out to be 'liked' by their children.......and end up being disregarded by their children. It's obvious you confuse 'respect' with 'like'.

As for who will become an effective leader.....it is the one who learns early on that life doesn't necessarily follow our own selfish definition of 'fair', but rather, learns the price of consequences......in short the one who learns the painful lesson that, though their mother considers them a unique and special snowflake.......father's view on the matter is subject to their behavior. ;)

The debate over whether CEOs are born or made remains unresolved, but there is one thing they overwhelmingly have in common.

As children, they were paddled, belted, switched or swatted.

Child psychologists wince at such a finding. They warn that spanking slows mental development and hinders achievement. They say the last thing parents need in the back of their minds is a suggestion or justification that the rod is the road to vision, ruthless drive and other leadership traits common to CEOs. http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-10-08-spanking-ceos-usat_x.htm

[sgtmac_46]

Where is the most passionate part of any individual's life if not found in their child(ren)?

Surely each child born into this strange world relies on that devoted passion as they get their footing in all this wordly crap.

Obviously you fail to grasp the definition of 'passion' as used in the above.....read it a couple more times.

[sgtmac_46]

Leaders have to have self discipline. Allowing a child to make their own rules does not produce self discipline, it produces a narcissist at best, a sociopath at worst.
Touche! Self-absorbed narcissists may envision themselves as credible leaders......but history shows that view to be mistaken.

Self-discipline is largely about the acknowledgment of a higher purpose beyond oneself.......hence to lead, you must first learn to serve.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

The debate over whether CEOs are born or made remains unresolved, but there is one thing they overwhelmingly have in common.

As children, they were paddled, belted, switched or swatted.It could be argued that the majority of a certain age demographic were. That doesn't correlate to this being some sort of prerequisite for leadership.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Leaders have to have self discipline. Allowing a child to make their own rules does not produce self discipline, it produces a narcissist at best, a sociopath at worst.

Proving the point I made in an earlier post. Disciplining a child by means other than spanking does not equate to 'allowing them to make their own rules.'

[roger teekell]

It could be argued that the majority of a certain age demographic were. That doesn't correlate to this being some sort of prerequisite for leadership.

And yet up until the mid 70's spanking worked just fine..

Note I said "Spanking"...Not hitting...Not beating.....SPANKING.

When done PROPERLY ( Never in Anger or violence ) it has always worked..

At least in every case I have witnessed.

[sgtmac_46]

Proving the point I made in an earlier post. Disciplining a child by means other than spanking does not equate to 'allowing them to make their own rules.'
It depends entirely on the child.......spanking is part of a continuum of consequences. It is utterly ineffective on some children, and the mere threat is entirely effective on other children.

[sgtmac_46]

It could be argued that the majority of a certain age demographic were. That doesn't correlate to this being some sort of prerequisite for leadership.
No, but the point was made that spanking would be some impediment to leadership......point defeated. ;)

[sgtmac_46]

And yet up until the mid 70's spanking worked just fine..

Note I said "Spanking"...Not hitting...Not beating.....SPANKING.

When done PROPERLY ( Never in Anger or violence ) it has always worked..

At least in every case I have witnessed.

The irony, in fact, is that a STRONG correlation exists between the modern social psychology methods of upbringing and a RISE in societal violence........which runs contrary to what we were told to expect........illustrating that the prognosticators in question don't have a CLUE!



The PROBLEM is this.........we have gotten away from the notion that children MUST do good or else! In the past children were expecting to grow in to good people for one of THREE reasons......which was entirely up to the child.

1) A love of goodness in itself
2) Desire for acceptance in the social order
3) FEAR OF THE LASH!


Now too many of us are having such a societal level existential self-absorbed debate about the very existence or non-existence of the good we can't even decide what it is, much less teach our children how to BE it.

[StoneScratcher]

Obviously you fail to grasp the definition of 'passion' as used in the above.....read it a couple more times.

It depends on what you consider passionate in your lives (your in the general sense of the word).

Passion which is driven by ego, from ego, is not a passion for. And that's not a place to be when holding a belt over any child.

[sgtmac_46]

It depends on what you consider passionate in your lives (your in the general sense of the word).

Passion from within is driven by ego. And that's not a place to be when holding a belt over any child.

Passion is strong emotion, positive or negative........in the context of the post.

Punishment of any sort should NEVER be motivated by passion.......;)

Punishment should be a logically measured tool to reach an end goal.......the correction of behavior that is dangerous or intolerable.



If one has issues with punishment itself, then one has a problem with reality. Some seem to have a problem with physical punishment, but that is based on an ignorance of the nature of punishment itself. The human animal is geared to learn in such a fashion.

[StoneScratcher]

Well, at the dosages ingested, it doesn't really matter. Low dosages of soap are harmless. Ivory was chosen, because that is the brand we use.

What I meant by my comment that not even the soap (Ivory) is 100% pure, was that, if you think about the symbolism of putting an impure object into a child's mouth to punish them for saying something deemed "impure", it seemed rather odd.

[sgtmac_46]

What I meant by my comment that not even the soap (Ivory) is 100% pure, was that, if you think about the symbolism of putting an impure object into a child's mouth to punish them for saying something deemed "impure", it seemed rather odd.

Everything seems odd if you spin it in enough different directions.

[StoneScratcher]

Passion is strong emotion, positive or negative........in the context of the post.

Punishment of any sort should NEVER be motivated by passion.......;)

Punishment should be a logically measured tool to reach an end goal.......the correction of behavior that is dangerous or intolerable.



If one has issues with punishment itself, then one has a problem with reality. Some seem to have a problem with physical punishment, but that is based on an ignorance of the nature of punishment itself. The human animal is geared to learn in such a fashion.

This is the difference.

If I had given birth to puppies, and whipped, put soap in their mouths, smacked, slapped, all within the parameters of "non-abusive" toward those animals, I'd have trained animals to do "tricks" and to follow "commands" and to be "unthinking" as to any behaviors outside those behaviors because these animals were prodded, poked, and punished if they didn't obey.

Sure humans are animals, and have sub-brain which is overlayered by the massive reasoning brain. That sub-brain, that primal brain, is there and gives us basic instincts, functioning, sticks that fight or flight light into our lives, if provoked.

So if parents want to entertain the animal part of their children's brains, to "train" them, make them "obey", mold them into "good puppies", then go for it. I am no judge.

To me, I want to delve into the reasoning mind of each child. To not fear questioning, nor fear making a mistake. To stand from where they fell, and to walk forward from there, to then run...to lead.

It takes patience and time to think and reason with a child--and they may teach you a thing or two (or more) as well. It is quick and easy to think for them and make them think like you (in the general sense of you).

These are just my opinions. Again, I am no judge.

[StoneScratcher]

Everything seems odd if you spin it in enough different directions.

Interesting. So nothing explained plainly would work to change your mind? Your mind is set? Solid? You have a firm grip on that handle of yours? Tensely fisted hold around the concept?

[sgtmac_46]

This is the difference.

If I had given birth to puppies, and whipped, put soap in their mouths, smacked, slapped, all within the parameters of "non-abusive" toward those animals, I'd have trained animals to do "tricks" and to follow "commands" and to be "unthinking" as to any behaviors outside those behaviors because these animals were prodded, poked, and punished if they didn't obey.

Sure humans are animals, and have sub-brain which is overlayered by the massive reasoning brain. That sub-brain, that primal brain, is there and gives us basic instincts, functioning, sticks that fight or flight light into our lives, if provoked.

So if parents want to entertain the animal part of their children's brains, to "train" them, make them "obey", mold them into "good puppies", then go for it. I am no judge.

To me, I want to delve into the reasoning mind of each child. To not fear questioning, nor fear making a mistake. To stand from where they fell, and to walk forward from there, to then run...to lead.

It takes patience and time to think and reason with a child--and they may teach you a thing or two (or more) as well. It is quick and easy to think for them and make them think like you (in the general sense of you).

These are just my opinions. Again, I am no judge. Being melodramatic is not an argument my friend........John Locke was not entirely correct......nor, by proxy, are you. ;)

At the root of your problem is the notion that ALL children, or indeed ALL human beings, are driven by logic and reason.......many are driven by passions. A child subject to reason won't find themselves in need of logically derived discipline as a matter of course.

As to the notion that one can learn to lead simply by being allowed to, it is as I pointed out before, silly.......in order to LEAD one must learn to SERVE.........if all one ever learned to serve is one's own desires, with what purpose does one LEAD? ;)

[StoneScratcher]

No, but the point was made that spanking would be some impediment to leadership......point defeated. ;)

Here's an example of two "leaders":

A champion pitbull dog ring fighter.

A seeing eye dog, (special needs trained dog).

Both are leaders, both are brought up differently.

[StoneScratcher]

Being melodramatic is not an argument my friend........John Locke was not entirely correct. ;)

The parent said to the the kid hiding in the cupboard balling their eyes out.

[sgtmac_46]

Interesting. So nothing explained plainly would work to change your mind? Your mind is set? Solid? You have a firm grip on that handle of yours? Tensely fisted hold around the concept?
You weren't explaining anything with your soap analogy, actually, you were engaging in a logical fallacy.......Reductio ad absurdum.......try again. ;)


By the way......you should ask yourself the above question you asked me.........see if you have a firm grip on that handle of YOURS. ;)

[sgtmac_46]

The parent said to the the kid hiding in the cupboard balling their eyes out.

'Balling' his eyes out? Or 'Bawling' his eyes out?

[sgtmac_46]

Here's an example of two "leaders":

A champion pitbull dog ring fighter.

A seeing eye dog, (special needs trained dog).

Both are leaders, both are brought up differently.

They certainly are........you have there an example without meaning.......a pitbull is suitable as a dog ring fighter by birth.......as is a seeing eye dog suited for it's task by birth........training is the lesser of the equation.........you could NOT train a suitable seeing eye dog to be a champion dog ring fighter, for the traits that allow it to be good at it's task, do not translate to the other.

I'd steer clear of dog training, by the way. ;)

[StoneScratcher]

Being melodramatic is not an argument my friend........John Locke was not entirely correct......nor, by proxy, are you. ;)

At the root of your problem is the notion that ALL children, or indeed ALL human beings, are driven by logic and reason.......many are driven by passions. A child subject to reason won't find themselves in need of logically derived discipline as a matter of course.

As to the notion that one can learn to lead simply by being allowed to, it is as I pointed out before, silly.......in order to LEAD one must learn to SERVE.........if all one ever learned to serve is one's own desires, with what purpose does one LEAD? ;)

"in order to LEAD one must learn to SERVE" <---This is what you say.

SERVE whom?

"if all one ever learned to serve is one's own desires, with what purpose does one LEAD." <----This is what you say.

Where do you get "one's own desires"? How did you get that from anything I posted (or did you get that from somewhere else)?

LEAD whom?

You also say:

At the root of your problem is the notion that ALL children, or indeed ALL human beings, are driven by logic and reason.......many are driven by passions. A child subject to reason won't find themselves in need of logically derived discipline as a matter of course.

What the heck does this mean? Explain it to me as if I were your kid, please (I'm serious). You want to "teach" me that what you're going to do, (spank me), is based on this explanation.

Explain to me as if I am your kid, just why are you going to smack me when I can tell you why, for example, I called Aunt Mabel an *******.

[StoneScratcher]

'Balling' his eyes out? Or 'Bawling' his eyes out?

Balling, as in putting one's fists, in a ball, up to one's eyes and rolling those balled fists into them as if to erase what they will see once they put those little dimpled balled fists down from their eyes.

[sgtmac_46]

"in order to LEAD one must learn to SERVE" <---This is what you say.

SERVE whom?

"if all one ever learned to serve is one's own desires, with what purpose does one LEAD." <----This is what you say.

Where do you get "one's own desires"? How did you get that from anything I posted (or did you get that from somewhere else)?

LEAD whom?

You also say:

At the root of your problem is the notion that ALL children, or indeed ALL human beings, are driven by logic and reason.......many are driven by passions. A child subject to reason won't find themselves in need of logically derived discipline as a matter of course.

What the heck does this mean? Explain it to me as if I were your kid, please (I'm serious). You want to "teach" me that what you're going to do, (spank me), is based on this explanation.

Explain to me as if I am your kid, just why are you going to smack me when I can tell you why, for example, I called Aunt Mabel an *******.





First of all, if you serve nothing greater than yourself, I really can't explain it to you......LEADERSHIP is about service......that you believe it is about serving yourself may illustrate the root of your disagreement. ;)



Second, punishment is about correction of behavior, not 'teaching' in the sense you're insinuating (purposely)..........your behavior is unacceptable that is why it is being corrected, regardless of your rationalization for that behavior....(i.e. if I am your kid, just why are you going to smack me when I can tell you why, for example, I called Aunt Mabel an *******.).....it is better you learn that NOW than you learn that LATER! Those who fail to learn that lesson early, suffer for it.

[sgtmac_46]

Balling, as in putting one's fists, in a ball, up to one's eyes and rolling those balled fists into them as if to erase what they will see once they put those little dimpled balled fists down from their eyes.

I think 'Bawling' is what you were looking for. ;)

[StoneScratcher]

They certainly are........you have there an example without meaning.......a pitbull is suitable as a dog ring fighter by birth.......as is a seeing eye dog suited for it's task by birth........training is the lesser of the equation.........you could NOT train a suitable seeing eye dog to be a champion dog ring fighter, for the traits that allow it to be good at it's task, do not translate to the other.

I'd steer clear of dog training, by the way. ;)

There are seeing eye horses, by the way.

;) <---And what does this signify to you, by the way? It seems always out of place in your posts, as if not clear in what meaning you are trying to portray. In other words, what compels you to stamp your posts with this? Seems odd, to me.

Anyway, um, you're wrong.

[sgtmac_46]

There are seeing eye horses, by the way.

;) <---And what does this signify to you, by the way? It seems always out of place in your posts, as if not clear in what meaning you are trying to portray. In other words, what compels you to stamp your posts with this? Seems odd, to me.

Anyway, um, you're wrong. Uhm, no i'm not......:))

[StoneScratcher]

I think 'Bawling' is what you were looking for. ;)

Um? You're wrong. Not in the way I mean it.

Balling up one's fists means one is getting ready to fight. But a child cannot fight with a parent, if they are smaller than the parent. But in the example I gave, I clearly indicated it was a small "cupboard" sized child, who wanted to FIGHT with the parent, to say the parent was wrong, but instead, that small child fought with the image that child knew was a fact. What that child would see, after trying to "fight" that image from their minds, (by balling their fists to their eyes, fighting with that "image"), was a parent standing there, ready to hurt them.

You don't get me. Does this mean I get soap? Or a few smacks to my bottom?

[StoneScratcher]

Uhm, no i'm not......:))

Ego driven self-righteousness? Interesting choice of smilies, by the way.

Maybe this one will make you feel better? :(( <--winner's trophy

[sgtmac_46]

Um? You're wrong. Not in the way I mean it.

Balling up one's fists means one is getting ready to fight. But a child cannot fight with a parent, if they are smaller than the parent. But in the example I gave, I clearly indicated it was a small "cupboard" sized child, who wanted to FIGHT with the parent, to say the parent was wrong, but instead, that small child fought with the image that child knew was a fact. What that child would see, after trying to "fight" that image from their minds, (by balling their fists to their eyes, fighting with that "image"), was a parent standing there, ready to hurt them.

You don't get me. Does this mean I get soap? Or a few smacks to my bottom?

No, it means you get to write 'I will not confuse 'Balling' with 'Bawling' over and over until you quit confusing one for the other. :))

[sgtmac_46]

Ego driven self-righteousness? Interesting choice of smilies, by the way.

Maybe this one will make you feel better? :(( <--winner's trophy Speaking of ego driven self-righteousness........

It wasn't my intention to make you 'Ball'. :))

[StoneScratcher]

No, it means you get to write 'I will not confuse 'Balling' with 'Bawling' over and over until you quit confusing one for the other. :))

Apparently, you don't get it.

And I will not change the way I write. I am deeply into symbolism, as I am sure those who are familiar with my writing style understand.

You failed to grasp my two-fold meaning of that post. One you clearly illustrate, the other beyond your "reasoning" mind.

You won't grasp this either, I suppose. But I will explain if you want to talk human to human, using reasoning mind, rather than smacking smilies down in an attempt to decorate your uniform thinking.

[StoneScratcher]

Speaking of ego driven self-righteousness........

It wasn't my intention to make you 'Ball'. :))


I did "ball". You won't get that either...

[sgtmac_46]

Apparently, you don't get it.

And I will not change the way I write. I am deeply into symbolism, as I am sure those who are familiar with my writing style understand.

You failed to grasp my two-fold meaning of that post. One you clearly illustrate, the other beyond your "reasoning" mind.

You won't grasp this either, I suppose. But I will explain if you want to talk human to human, using reasoning mind, rather than smacking smilies down in an attempt to decorate your uniform thinking.

Actually I grasp it quite well.......it's called rationalizing......which isn't quite the same as being rational.

And my thinking may be uniform (ergo, consistent).......it contrasts well with your uninformed thought processes. ;)



Mistakes false intuition for insight.........Obviously an INFJ............

[StoneScratcher]

Actually I grasp it quite well.......it's called rationalizing......which isn't quite the same as being rational.

And my thinking may be uniform (ergo, consistent).......it contrasts well with your uninformed thinking. ;)

The child that grows from me will be shoulder to shoulder with your child that grows from you. From where they stand, where we have placed each, our beloved children, is where each will take their first steps into adulthood.

What will you say if your child becomes a successful leader?

[sgtmac_46]

What will you say if your child becomes a successful leader?
'I'm not surprised.'

[StoneScratcher]

'I'm not surprised.'

Why wouldn't you be surprised? Serious question, by the way.

[sgtmac_46]

Why wouldn't you be surprised? Serious question, by the way.

Because I expect them to be nothing less.....

[StoneScratcher]

Because I expect them to be nothing less.....

Does this mean that if they were not a leader, as you expected them to be, they would know you think less of them?

[Apatriot]

Proving the point I made in an earlier post. Disciplining a child by means other than spanking does not equate to 'allowing them to make their own rules.'

I agree. Discipline is the important thing, not spanking (or not). Spanking, in my mind, is just one of many tools used to help instill discipline. It is among the most natural ways (pain is nature's method to change behavior). I would have well-disciplined kids without spanking them, but there are times when spanking is the best alternative. The major plus to spanking as a punishment vs. a lot of other alternatives, is that spanking is quick and over with. Grounding or any kind of loss of privileges, IMHO, are sometimes very cruel, as they involve keeping up a punishment for a long time. IMHO, that can be more harmful than a quick swat on the rear.

[Apatriot]

What I meant by my comment that not even the soap (Ivory) is 100% pure, was that, if you think about the symbolism of putting an impure object into a child's mouth to punish them for saying something deemed "impure", it seemed rather odd.


The symbolism is: We use soap to clean our bodies. In this case, we are using soap to clean up language.

[Apatriot]

This is the difference.

If I had given birth to puppies, and whipped, put soap in their mouths, smacked, slapped, all within the parameters of "non-abusive" toward those animals, I'd have trained animals to do "tricks" and to follow "commands" and to be "unthinking" as to any behaviors outside those behaviors because these animals were prodded, poked, and punished if they didn't obey.

Sure humans are animals, and have sub-brain which is overlayered by the massive reasoning brain. That sub-brain, that primal brain, is there and gives us basic instincts, functioning, sticks that fight or flight light into our lives, if provoked.

So if parents want to entertain the animal part of their children's brains, to "train" them, make them "obey", mold them into "good puppies", then go for it. I am no judge.

To me, I want to delve into the reasoning mind of each child. To not fear questioning, nor fear making a mistake. To stand from where they fell, and to walk forward from there, to then run...to lead.

It takes patience and time to think and reason with a child--and they may teach you a thing or two (or more) as well. It is quick and easy to think for them and make them think like you (in the general sense of you).

These are just my opinions. Again, I am no judge.

You are presuming that there are two options--reasoning or punishement--in teaching kids to be part of society. Realistically, most of us do a combination of the above. It's rare that I punish my kids for disobedience before asking them why they did something. Generally, then we reason out why what they did was wrong, and why they are being punished.

Also, stone, how many kids have you raised?

[StoneScratcher]

The symbolism is: We use soap to clean our bodies. In this case, we are using soap to clean up language.

If your kid, I'd be afraid to say anything around you, just in case I said something "pressed and freshly cleaned" for fear you'd stab my tongue with a corsage or something.

[Apatriot]

The child that grows from me will be shoulder to shoulder with your child that grows from you. From where they stand, where we have placed each, our beloved children, is where each will take their first steps into adulthood.

What will you say if your child becomes a successful leader?

My bet is that Sarge's kid will be a more successful leader than yours. Yours will be a pain in the butt to all around him, due to not having an awareness of boundaries, especially the arbitrary ones that most societies have.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

And again.

Sheesh. Give it a rest.

[Apatriot]

If your kid, I'd be afraid to say anything around you, just in case I said something "pressed and freshly cleaned" for fear you'd stab my tongue with a corsage or something.

They aren't afraid at all to speak around me. The main punishable words are the 7 words you can't say on TV, and blatant disrespect. We've only had blatant disrespect once with one child. He's still happy to talk. We've had a few 7 words incidents, but not many.

I live in a literal world online. I don't have time to play with the extended metaphors. It's very pretentious, and not an aid to communication.

[StoneScratcher]

You are presuming that there are two options--reasoning or punishement--in teaching kids to be part of society. Realistically, most of us do a combination of the above. It's rare that I punish my kids for disobedience before asking them why they did something. Generally, then we reason out why what they did was wrong, and why they are being punished.

Also, stone, how many kids have you raised?

How many kids have I raised--I never stop, to be truthful.

The greatest punishment a child can experience, comes not from physical pain, in my opinion. The greatest punishment a child can experience is that they have disappointed, not only themselves, but also others ("others" does not have to mean strictly the parents, by the way). Once the child realizes that they have disappointed themselves and others, then they can grow from there, after dusting themselves off for the experience. A child shouldn't give up, shouldn't be discouraged from making mistakes.

We all know there are certain parameters, afterall, we are civilized humans, and are social creatures.

Some parents smother their child with rules, regulations, as if thought police and language censors. If a child runs up to the parent and says, "I told my teacher to go **** off and now I'm in a load of trouble!" Would a bar of soap correct anything, if stuck in the child's mouth? What if the teacher were a puking *******, and you too, could see, and perhaps, although not condone, but understand why your child said such a thing--because that teacher, if put in basic, plain language, needed to go **** off.

Is the child right? Yes, as far as how this teacher behaved (because you discovered the teacher was, after speaking to her/him). Is the child right for swearing? No, they could have tried to keep it together, and take their feelings about the teacher to...to whom? To whom should this child go if they feel their teacher is being a jerk--to the parent? To the parent holding the soap and the five-fingered strap? Or to the parent who is guiding them to negotiate through social settings, even if there is a strong feeling of seeing someone needs to go **** off.

I judge no one who chooses to hit their kids. In other words, if you were my child, and this is what you said you were going to do when you were a parent--I wouldn't stick soap in your mouth or beat it out of you.

[StoneScratcher]

And again.

Sheesh. Give it a rest.

LOL! It is getting close to naptime. http://forums.hannity.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Apatriot]

How many kids have I raised--I never stop, to be truthful.

The greatest punishment a child can experience, comes not from physical pain, in my opinion. The greatest punishment a child can experience is that they have disappointed, not only themselves, but also others ("others" does not have to mean strictly the parents, by the way). Once the child realizes that they have disappointed themselves and others, then they can grow from there, after dusting themselves off for the experience. A child shouldn't give up, shouldn't be discouraged from making mistakes.

Not all chidlren respond to guilt (i.e. that they are disapointing people). Some relish it. Different kids need different punishments. There is no one size fits all (and yes, that includes spanking). Good parents need to use a wide variety of techniques, that not only include punishment, but also a lot of positive reinforcement (I probably praise and hug my kids 1000 times for each time I punish them).

Children shouldn't be discouraged from making mistakes, but they also need to learn that actions (even mistakes) have consequences.

We all know there are certain parameters, afterall, we are civilized humans, and are social creatures.

Some parents smother their child with rules, regulations, as if thought police and language censors. If a child runs up to the parent and says, "I told my teacher to go **** off and now I'm in a load of trouble!" Would a bar of soap correct anything, if stuck in the child's mouth? What if the teacher were a puking *******, and you too, could see, and perhaps, although not condone, but understand why your child said such a thing--because that teacher, if put in basic, plain language, needed to go **** off.

Well, in the real world, there are a lot of people who have power over you that need to go **** off, but if you choose to remain employed, you just have to hold that thought to yourself. The reason for the bar of soap is as an aversive technique. Children should be discouraged from confronting adults in that way, regardless of if they are right or wrong. It's just basic common sense.

Is the child right? Yes, as far as how this teacher behaved (because you discovered the teacher was, after speaking to her/him). Is the child right for swearing? No, they could have tried to keep it together, and take their feelings about the teacher to...to whom? To whom should this child go if they feel their teacher is being a jerk--to the parent? To the parent holding the soap and the five-fingered strap? Or to the parent who is guiding them to negotiate through social settings, even if there is a strong feeling of seeing someone needs to go **** off.

Well, in a case like this, I would hope that my child would tell me the teacher is a jerk (or whatever word you choose), but in appropriate language. There are profanity free ways to describe people, and I would expect my kids to use the profanity free methods. Second, the problem isn't the thought (that the teacher is a jerk, etc.). The problem is the inappropriate expression of the thought at an inappropriate time. Punishment doesn't preclude other teaching. If my child told a teacher to **** off, etc. I would reason and discuss before punishing them. Part of that discussion would be not to express such thoughts in front of authority. That's just plain stupid. After the discussion, the punishment would occur (and, yes, in this case, it would be the soap). Also, there would be the manual labor involved during the school suspension (which would happen).

I judge no one who chooses to hit their kids. In other words, if you were my child, and this is what you said you were going to do when you were a parent--I wouldn't stick soap in your mouth or beat it out of you.

Of course you do. The more you repeat it, the more I'm convinced that you are judging us.

[StoneScratcher]

[quote]Not all chidlren respond to guilt (i.e. that they are disapointing people). Some relish it. Different kids need different punishments. There is no one size fits all (and yes, that includes spanking). Good parents need to use a wide variety of techniques, that not only include punishment, but also a lot of positive reinforcement (I probably praise and hug my kids 1000 times for each time I punish them).

No, I am not speaking of "guilt trips". I am speaking of disappointment, and FEELING that sensation, not numbing it down, or turning into a guilt trip. No. NOT that. That feeling of disappointment is important to realize, to have as an "active" and "alive" button so that when it is FELT (NOT as GUILT), but when it is FELT, the child realizes they, THEMSELVES, need to adjust, rethink, amend, and apologize (if need be), LEARN, pick themselves up and go forward from there. That should be something that is a ladder for them--to learn from what were PAST disappointments, and to move upward. There is no benefit to cause the child to feel GUILT and to shame them for their mistakes. It is damaging to a child, imo, to inflict guilt upon them, and then hold over their heads a physical punishment which will happen in the next few days, regardless of what they have learned from disappointing themselves or others. It keeps them LOCKED on that ground, and STUCK in a place, that will never disappear until the red lines do.


Children shouldn't be discouraged from making mistakes, but they also need to learn that actions (even mistakes) have consequences.


Yes, mistakes have consequences. But when a child is asked, for example, "What did you learn by getting a D in English?" Will they say: "I get grounded for two weeks." Or will they say: "My Dad/Mom met with the school, and it seems as if my class wasn't right for me because I was bored, so I'm starting a club about how Shakespeare's imagery had more impact on enlightenment, than, as some think, he had on Romance Novels."


Well, in the real world, there are a lot of people who have power over you that need to go **** off, but if you choose to remain employed, you just have to hold that thought to yourself. The reason for the bar of soap is as an aversive technique. Children should be discouraged from confronting adults in that way, regardless of if they are right or wrong. It's just basic common sense.

I never said the child should confront the adult, but if they did, then, as I said, they need to be taught and guided as to how to "keep it together". The way a child can learn this is to be unafraid to say to their parents, "I think this adult really sucks, and I'm about ready to swear at them. What do I do?" Then parents can teach the skills necessary. Parents should be the child's advocate, not an ENABLER, I am not saying a parent is an ENABLER. I am saying that a child's voice is through the parent. And how can a parent speak for a child when that child cannot be heard? That is what I mean.




Well, in a case like this, I would hope that my child would tell me the teacher is a jerk (or whatever word you choose), but in appropriate language. There are profanity free ways to describe people, and I would expect my kids to use the profanity free methods. Second, the problem isn't the thought (that the teacher is a jerk, etc.). The problem is the inappropriate expression of the thought at an inappropriate time. Punishment doesn't preclude other teaching. If my child told a teacher to **** off, etc. I would reason and discuss before punishing them. Part of that discussion would be not to express such thoughts in front of authority. That's just plain stupid. After the discussion, the punishment would occur (and, yes, in this case, it would be the soap). Also, there would be the manual labor involved during the school suspension (which would happen).


I agree with all the discussion. Where we disagree, without judgement on my part (although you refuse to believe me, interesting as this is considering "language" and soap usage are important to you), anyway, where we disagree, is that I see no need for physical pain to be used. None. Zero. Not a swipe, not a pinch, not a swat. A kiss, sure. A hug, yes.


Of course you do. The more you repeat it, the more I'm convinced that you are judging us.

Even if you held a bar of soap up to my mouth to get me to agree with your judgement of me, I wouldn't allow you to place that bar inside it. NO way. You could strap me, punish me, ground me, turn me over to reform school, if I were your child, I would defy you for that statement, the statement you, yourself, are so "convinced" of.

I would not conform to your analysis of my free thinking mind or my intentions.

[Apatriot]

No, I am not speaking of "guilt trips". I am speaking of disappointment, and FEELING that sensation, not numbing it down, or turning into a guilt trip. No. NOT that. That feeling of disappointment is important to realize, to have as an "active" and "alive" button so that when it is FELT (NOT as GUILT), but when it is FELT, the child realizes they, THEMSELVES, need to adjust, rethink, amend, and apologize (if need be), LEARN, pick themselves up and go forward from there. That should be something that is a ladder for them--to learn from what were PAST disappointments, and to move upward. There is no benefit to cause the child to feel GUILT and to shame them for their mistakes. It is damaging to a child, imo, to inflict guilt upon them, and then hold over their heads a physical punishment which will happen in the next few days, regardless of what they have learned from disappointing themselves or others. It keeps them LOCKED on that ground, and STUCK in a place, that will never disappear until the red lines do.

Not everyone reaches the level of enlightenment as to feel disappointment in the way you are describing.

Also, physical punishment isn't held over for days, it's administered and gotten over with. That is one of the chief advantages. For example, when my youngest used a certain word, we discusses why it was wrong, and then went to the bathroom to bite the soap (guideline is that tooth marks need to be seen). We then again discuss why we shouldn't use that word, and it's over with. Grounding, on the other hand, keeps kids stuck in place and feeling bad over and over again.


Yes, mistakes have consequences. But when a child is asked, for example, "What did you learn by getting a D in English?" Will they say: "I get grounded for two weeks." Or will they say: "My Dad/Mom met with the school, and it seems as if my class wasn't right for me because I was bored, so I'm starting a club about how Shakespeare's imagery had more impact on enlightenment, than, as some think, he had on Romance Novels."

The bolded above is total bullcrap and is a case of enabling poor performance. Kids need to learn that sometimes they do things that are boring and that they don't like. It's life. I certainly don't like all I do, but it's required. Also, the only consequences I have with the kids for bad grades are natural ones. If they aren't spending enough time studying, distractions are taken away.



I never said the child should confront the adult, but if they did, then, as I said, they need to be taught and guided as to how to "keep it together". The way a child can learn this is to be unafraid to say to their parents, "I think this adult really sucks, and I'm about ready to swear at them. What do I do?" Then parents can teach the skills necessary. Parents should be the child's advocate, not an ENABLER, I am not saying a parent is an ENABLER. I am saying that a child's voice is through the parent. And how can a parent speak for a child when that child cannot be heard? That is what I mean.

Not sure where the argument here is. I would expect my kids to come to me before getting to the cursing stage. I've never said that I would expect my child to never criticize other adults to me. I just don't want them criticizing adults to their face.


I agree with all the discussion. Where we disagree, without judgement on my part (although you refuse to believe me, interesting as this is considering "language" and soap usage are important to you), anyway, where we disagree, is that I see no need for physical pain to be used. None. Zero. Not a swipe, not a pinch, not a swat. A kiss, sure. A hug, yes.

Humans are physical creatures. If hugs are important as positive reinforcers, spankings, etc. are important as punishments. Pain is nature's way to change behaviors. Why reject that?


Even if you held a bar of soap up to my mouth to get me to agree with your judgement of me, I wouldn't allow you to place that bar inside it. NO way. You could strap me, punish me, ground me, turn me over to reform school, if I were your child, I would defy you for that statement, the statement you, yourself, are so "convinced" of.

I would not conform to your analysis of my free thinking mind or my intentions.

Huh?

[StoneScratcher]

Not everyone reaches the level of enlightenment as to feel disappointment in the way you are describing.

Also, physical punishment isn't held over for days, it's administered and gotten over with. That is one of the chief advantages. For example, when my youngest used a certain word, we discusses why it was wrong, and then went to the bathroom to bite the soap (guideline is that tooth marks need to be seen). We then again discuss why we shouldn't use that word, and it's over with. Grounding, on the other hand, keeps kids stuck in place and feeling bad over and over again.



The bolded above is total bullcrap and is a case of enabling poor performance. Kids need to learn that sometimes they do things that are boring and that they don't like. It's life. I certainly don't like all I do, but it's required. Also, the only consequences I have with the kids for bad grades are natural ones. If they aren't spending enough time studying, distractions are taken away.




Not sure where the argument here is. I would expect my kids to come to me before getting to the cursing stage. I've never said that I would expect my child to never criticize other adults to me. I just don't want them criticizing adults to their face.



Humans are physical creatures. If hugs are important as positive reinforcers, spankings, etc. are important as punishments. Pain is nature's way to change behaviors. Why reject that?



Huh?

I'm on a milk carton. And happy I'm there, by the way, stick over my shoulder, heading down the tracks. Free.

[StoneScratcher]

Postcard:

http://www.says-it.com/images/page/churchsigns/photos/God-is-like-Tide-soap.jpg

[sgtmac_46]

Does this mean that if they were not a leader, as you expected them to be, they would know you think less of them?
It means they should never settle for mediocrity.

[sgtmac_46]

I'm on a milk carton. And happy I'm there, by the way, stick over my shoulder, heading down the tracks. Free.

Alrighty then.......

[Cav Scout]

I think people should mind their own damn business.

[Floydian]

WOW! Parents getting into ****ing contests over who raises their child the best. Never see that happen. :think:

[jimjames418]

WOW! Parents getting into ****ing contests over who raises their child the best. Never see that happen. :think:
Usually one has no children but has a whole lot of advice on how kids should be displined. Book smart, real world dumb. :whistle:

[Cav Scout]

Usually one has no children but has a whole lot of advice on how kids should be displined. Book smart, real world dumb. :whistle:

Dr. Spok anyone...:))

[GA_LP]

WOW! Parents getting into ****ing contests over who raises their child the best. Never see that happen. :think:
To follow up what Jim is saying, those of us that ARE parents are fed up with those who AREN'T trying to tell us how to raise our children. :snooty:

[Cav Scout]

To follow up what Jim is saying, those of us that ARE parents are fed up with those who AREN'T trying to tell us how to raise our children. :snooty:

I told a gal here a while back, in a school assembly, she was handing out flyers for a child abuse class. I looked right at her and said, "I will come, I need to learn some new tricks"...:))

You would have thought I hit her with a pole axe...:))