Hypocricy in Education policy

[ronuva]

Why is it that liberals oppose school choice to allow underprivileged children to attend the same schools that liberals send their kids to? Are they better than the people they claim to be helping? Or does it go deeper? Isn't it to their advantage that there will always be an underclass that they claim to be the champion of? They can then claim to give them programs to help them. But as we all know, that "gift" isn't free. Someone has to pay for it and that someone is an oppressed minority group that liberals never assist: The American Taxpayer! If the underprivileged were to be adequately educated, they could then get good paying jobs and join the taxpayers and would no longer need the liberals "help." They would also be outraged that their hard earned money would be going to finance programs that don't work and don't help people get to work. Please comment on this and let your views be heard. If we don't expose hypocrites, who will?

[WorldWatcher]

Why is it that liberals oppose school choice to allow underprivileged children to attend the same schools that liberals send their kids to? Are they better than the people they claim to be helping? Or does it go deeper? Isn't it to their advantage that there will always be an underclass that they claim to be the champion of? They can then claim to give them programs to help them. But as we all know, that "gift" isn't free. Someone has to pay for it and that someone is an oppressed minority group that liberals never assist: The American Taxpayer! If the underprivileged were to be adequately educated, they could then get good paying jobs and join the taxpayers and would no longer need the liberals "help." They would also be outraged that their hard earned money would be going to finance programs that don't work and don't help people get to work. Please comment on this and let your views be heard. If we don't expose hypocrites, who will?



In Utah Republicans outnumber Democrats 4:1.


Sorry to have to break the news to you, it is not just "liberals" that vote down vouchers.



Utah was picked for this fight because Republicans who favor school vouchers thought that the issue would receive a favorable hearing in that conservative state. Utah's GOP-control legislature passed a voucher bill in February, but it never became law because opponents gathered more than the required 120,000 signatures necessary to turn the new law into a state ballot referendum.


<<SNIP>>


While there have been 10 state referendums on school vouchers in America since 1972, the Utah vote was the first referendum since 2000. Vouchers have never been voted into law in any state and on average about 69% of voters vote against school tuition vouchers in those referendums. Utah's election followed that patter: 62% of Utah's voters voted against this referendum.



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695247764,00.html?pg=1
http://educationalissues.suite101.com/article.cfm/school_vouchers_fail_in_utah



>>>>

[RWReaganfan]

Take a kid out of a failing school and move them to any school and that child's poor study habits, poor preparation for school, and poor home life will keep that child as a poor student!

Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic did not prevent it from sinking. Change the child and that will change the school!

[Abe Babe]

The wealthy already can and already do send their kids to private schools. My SIL and family live in Chicago, and scrimp and save to send their kids to Catholic schools. Vouchers will have little effect other than subsidising(sp?) the people who already send their kids to private schools.

Why do private schools usually have better test scores? Because they don't have to take the less intelligent kids, or the disabled kids.

Wait. I agree with someone whose ID is 'ReaganFan"? Hold on a sec.. . .
Yep, the pope is still Catholic. . .
Nope, pigs aren't flying. . .
Yep, bears still **** in the woods. . .


hmmm. . .

[RWReaganfan]

Wait. I agree with someone whose ID is 'ReaganFan"? Hold on a sec.. . .
Yep, the pope is still Catholic. . .
Nope, pigs aren't flying. . .
Yep, bears still **** in the woods. . .


hmmm. . .

Don't worry! Most of my conservative friends try to disown me when they find out my views on education! However, having spent over 12 years in the classroom and administration, I think i have a pretty good idea where most conservatives go wrong.

Of course, I also do not allow for any liberal indoctrination in my school. When one of our teachers was promoting Global Warming, I slammed her misinformation with the real facts.

[chica1846]

Don't worry! Most of my conservative friends try to disown me when they find out my views on education! However, having spent over 12 years in the classroom and administration, I think i have a pretty good idea where most conservatives go wrong.

Of course, I also do not allow for any liberal indoctrination in my school. When one of our teachers was promoting Global Warming, I slammed her misinformation with the real facts.

You Go!! Unfortunately, a lot of students will not survive the liberal brainwashing once they get to college. I just had to sit through a graduation ceremony for my stepdaughter at a university where a large number of students got BAs in "Community Studies". Hmmm... where the heck will they be employed in this economy??? ACORN??!!:rolleyes:

[Sage]

You Go!! Unfortunately, a lot of students will not survive the liberal brainwashing once they get to college. I just had to sit through a graduation ceremony for my stepdaughter at a university where a large number of students got BAs in "Community Studies". Hmmm... where the heck will they be employed in this economy??? ACORN??!!:rolleyes:

Uh... urban development planning and consulting firms (public and private sector) or NPOs / NGOs that deal with the nearly insurmountable issues that large cities must contend with? It's (woefully) amusing that opponents of urban development have used the ignorant and sad actions of a single (albeit large) organization to essentially write off all attempts to understand and assist in the development of assistance programs throughout impoverished urban centers.

[Whastryk]

Real example: a 10 year old boy is active in political information, and is conservatively minded. He was discussing politics prior to the election and stated all of the reasons why he did not want Obama to win, citing actual facts, and not opinions.

The teacher said that politics have no place in the classroom or school, period. That same teacher forced the class to watch the inaguration (sp) during class, but he instead chose to read a book, because he "did not care to hear Obama lie to Americans." The teacher then said to put the book down and give our new President the respect that he deserves.

After the inaguration (sp) was over, the teacher made the class write about what they liked about Obama said.

Hypocritical much, or better yet hi pot you're black.:twisted:

[George S]

How big should public education actually be?

There is a point beyond which there is (apparently, see current education policy) no longer a positive return on investment.

It is in the public interest to have an electorate equipped with basic communication skills and the mathematical wherewithal to balance a checkbook. It is even in the public interest to educate everyone on how the government is organized at the local, state and federal level. And in the public interest, too, that people understand statistics. This last is not done today, alas.

It pays to teach everyone music. It does not pay to have a private cello tutor for everyone.

Somewhere in this spectrum the public good is actually diminished. The cost of educating to the next level at public expense exceeds the public good generated.

Beyond a basic ability to read, write, and figure so that we can have an informed electorate, what point public education?

I know this Utilitarian/Libertarian point of view is not mainstream at all.

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance." -- Abe Lincoln

If the mainstream is ignorant, they should be educated. But they should pay for it. Free advice is worth every penny. So is free education.

[WreckedParty]

"Liberal indoctrination" if it even exists, isnt even a miniscule slice of the problems with public detention centers...... i mean public schools.

[ttab1990]

I believe in the school system of years ago but not today. Where have all the good teachers gone and why are our children being taught to be liberal and not given a choice? Detention center does describe it maybe brainwashing school would be better.

[RWReaganfan]

I believe in the school system of years ago but not today. Where have all the good teachers gone and why are our children being taught to be liberal and not given a choice? Detention center does describe it maybe brainwashing school would be better.

Why do you think they are being taught to be liberal? I have taught 13 years and never believed that to be true.

[ttab1990]

Here in the schools it was Obama Obama and nothing on the other parties
The child I took to school thought he was the only one running
strange
in my book

[ttab1990]

I do think it is great to have a teacher to be equal like you they are getting harder to find

[ttab1990]

I do think it is great to have a teacher to be equal like you they are getting harder to find
are you still there? New to this site and cannot figure how to do certain things like add a picture

[pubschteacher]

I believe in the school system of years ago but not today. Where have all the good teachers gone and why are our children being taught to be liberal and not given a choice? Detention center does describe it maybe brainwashing school would be better.


A couple of quick questions...

How many of the 3.5 million teachers do you know that gives you the information you need to assume that all the "good" teachers are gone?
How many of the curriculums of the 90,000 schools in the United States do you have knowledge of that gives you the information to make the assumption that they are being taught to be "liberal"

If you would like, I can post our district curriculum in whatever subject you would like and then you can show me the "liberal" parts.

Gross generalizations, are, well, gross. :-)

[George S]

A couple of quick questions...

How many of the 3.5 million teachers do you know that gives you the information you need to assume that all the "good" teachers are gone?
How many of the curriculums of the 90,000 schools in the United States do you have knowledge of that gives you the information to make the assumption that they are being taught to be "liberal"

If you would like, I can post our district curriculum in whatever subject you would like and then you can show me the "liberal" parts.

Gross generalizations, are, well, gross. :-)
The current problem rests with the fact that there are complex regulations regarding continuing employment of bad teachers.

It is not that there are not good teachers. In fact, most are. The problem is that the bottom 10% should be fired as a bad investment. That cannot be done today.

Do that each year for 10 years. What's left are all good teachers.

ETA: source: Iacocca's proposal if he were education czar.

[pubschteacher]

The current problem rests with the fact that there are complex regulations regarding continuing employment of bad teachers.

It is not that there are not good teachers. In fact, most are. The problem is that the bottom 10% should be fired as a bad investment. That cannot be done today.

Do that each year for 10 years. What's left are all good teachers.

ETA: source: Iacocca's proposal if he were education czar.

I don't disagree that there are bad teachers and given that there are nearly 3.5 million of us, I would think there is a great number of bad teachers. I didn't like the characterization that all the good teachers are gone, especially from someone who is obviously making that generalization based on a very small sample. I also agree that there must be a more efficient system to get rid of bad teachers, but if you want to do it right that is going to be costly. In Colorado, teachers can be released without cause for the first three years of their contract. After the first day of their fourth year, the principal has to give that teacher due process. They have to spend a siginificant amount of time in that teachers classroom, documenting what it is the teacher is doing incorrectly.
Just curious, how would you or Lee identify those bottom 10 percent? Test scores? Principal evaluation, student evaluation, parent evaluation? Do teachers that teach AP classes have to worry about student progress as much as the teacher with a roomful of students who don't care, have 504 plans or IEP's?
How would you go about it?

[George S]

I don't disagree that there are bad teachers and given that there are nearly 3.5 million of us, I would think there is a great number of bad teachers. I didn't like the characterization that all the good teachers are gone, especially from someone who is obviously making that generalization based on a very small sample. I also agree that there must be a more efficient system to get rid of bad teachers, but if you want to do it right that is going to be costly. In Colorado, teachers can be released without cause for the first three years of their contract. After the first day of their fourth year, the principal has to give that teacher due process. They have to spend a siginificant amount of time in that teachers classroom, documenting what it is the teacher is doing incorrectly.
Just curious, how would you or Lee identify those bottom 10 percent? Test scores? Principal evaluation, student evaluation, parent evaluation? Do teachers that teach AP classes have to worry about student progress as much as the teacher with a roomful of students who don't care, have 504 plans or IEP's?
How would you go about it?

Make education a private matter beyond reading, writing, and enough math to balance a checkbook. Also include the civics of the local, state and federal governments.

That is in order to have an electorate that has the ability to be informed if they wish.

All other education beyond passing an English Language Proficiency Exam (reading and writing at the level to be able to compose correct sentences), a math exam of addition and subtraction and multiplication facts, a civics exam.

Regardless of age, passing the test is the end of public education.

All the rest should be a for-profit venture.

[pubschteacher]

Make education a private matter beyond reading, writing, and enough math to balance a checkbook. Also include the civics of the local, state and federal governments.

That is in order to have an electorate that has the ability to be informed if they wish.

All other education beyond passing an English Language Proficiency Exam (reading and writing at the level to be able to compose correct sentences), a math exam of addition and subtraction and multiplication facts, a civics exam.

Regardless of age, passing the test is the end of public education.

All the rest should be a for-profit venture.

Well, that would certainly simplify things, but you and I both know this is not going to happen anytime soon.
So, let's stick to the reality. 55 million students, 3.5 million teachers. How are you going to go about achieving the goal of eliminating that bottom 10 percent that are identified as "bad"?

[RWReaganfan]

Well, that would certainly simplify things, but you and I both know this is not going to happen anytime soon.
So, let's stick to the reality. 55 million students, 3.5 million teachers. How are you going to go about achieving the goal of eliminating that bottom 10 percent that are identified as "bad"?

When that question is asked, all you hear are crickets chirping!

[Impenitent]

So, let's stick to the reality. 55 million students, 3.5 million teachers. How are you going to go about achieving the goal of eliminating that bottom 10 percent that are identified as "bad"?

they will comprise obama's army of volunteers and then go into acorn

[George S]

Well, that would certainly simplify things, but you and I both know this is not going to happen anytime soon.
So, let's stick to the reality. 55 million students, 3.5 million teachers. How are you going to go about achieving the goal of eliminating that bottom 10 percent that are identified as "bad"?
Eliminate teachers' unions for a start. Each teacher is responsible for his/her own productivity. Length-of-service should not be a criterion for continued employment by the government.

Administrators of public schools are responsible for their teachers' evaluations. When they evaluate anyone, whether they have been a teacher for 2 months or 20 years, they use the same criteria. Good administrators who judge accurately will have good schools. Poor administrators will not. The administrator of administrators will note (or he is not a good administrator) and remove the bottom 10% of them.

The system would then evolve with survival of the fittest to teach.

[pubschteacher]

Eliminate teachers' unions for a start. Each teacher is responsible for his/her own productivity. Length-of-service should not be a criterion for continued employment by the government.

Does that include professional organizations as well. I don't belong to a union, I belong to the Colorado Education Association. I don't think it is realistic to try and eliminate these organizations. I do agree that they need to change their policies on firing teachers, which I think they would if the evaluation process was more complete.

Administrators of public schools are responsible for their teachers' evaluations. When they evaluate anyone, whether they have been a teacher for 2 months or 20 years, they use the same criteria. Good administrators who judge accurately will have good schools. Poor administrators will not. The administrator of administrators will note (or he is not a good administrator) and remove the bottom 10% of them.
The system would then evolve with survival of the fittest to teach.

I wonder if you have ever worked in a public school. Administrators have many jobs, ONE of which is to evaluate teachers. Now, this may be different somewhere else, but I have visited schools all over Colorado and have always found that you had a very small number of administrators in the building and very large teaching staffs. This is the problem. If you are truly going to evaluate a teacher's performance, you have to spend a significant amount of time in that teacher's classroom. In my school district, teachers are evaluated every three years. Why? Because there are not enough hours in the day for administrators to evaluate every staff member, every year. During that evaluation year, there are 3 formal evaluations and 2 informal. This means that this administrator sees about 5-6 hours of my teaching. Why aren't they doing more, well, same reason, not enough hours in the day.
If you want to properly evaluate a teacher and their teaching method, you are going to need many, many more people.
As a side note, don't assume that just because someone is an administator that they are a good judge of good teaching. If you truly want good evaluations, you want to hire professional objective evaluators, master teachers, develop a standard rubric of best teaching practices and have them spend a significant amount of time in that classroom. But again, this is going to cost a pretty penny.
As a teacher, if I knew that such a system existed, I would give up due process in a second.

[NascarGirl2448]

Real example: a 10 year old boy is active in political information, and is conservatively minded. He was discussing politics prior to the election and stated all of the reasons why he did not want Obama to win, citing actual facts, and not opinions.
The teacher said that politics have no place in the classroom or school, period. That same teacher forced the class to watch the inaguration (sp) during class, but he instead chose to read a book, because he "did not care to hear Obama lie to Americans." The teacher then said to put the book down and give our new President the respect that he deserves.
After the inaguration (sp) was over, the teacher made the class write about what they liked about Obama said.
Hypocritical much, or better yet hi pot you're black.:twisted:

That's as bad as a teacher I had in 9th grade (math teacher at that) who openly supported the 1st President Bush to the point of actually tying in politics with algebra, especially around election time. The day after President Clinton was elected, the same teacher went on a tirade about how the country was in big trouble. And heaven forbid anyone disagree, or even try to voice a dissenting opinion.

[NascarGirl2448]

Make education a private matter beyond reading, writing, and enough math to balance a checkbook. Also include the civics of the local, state and federal governments.

That is in order to have an electorate that has the ability to be informed if they wish.

All other education beyond passing an English Language Proficiency Exam (reading and writing at the level to be able to compose correct sentences), a math exam of addition and subtraction and multiplication facts, a civics exam.

Regardless of age, passing the test is the end of public education.

All the rest should be a for-profit venture.

You're forgetting science and the arts, not to mention instruction in computers. Your basic way may have worked in the 1950's, but this is 2009, and the world has gotten a lot more advanced since then. A good educational curriculum should include English, Math (basic math and higher), Government, Science (basic science and higher) as well as the Arts, and Computers. Like it or not, we are not in 1950 anymore.

[WreckedParty]

I believe in the school system of years ago but not today. Where have all the good teachers gone and why are our children being taught to be liberal and not given a choice? Detention center does describe it maybe brainwashing school would be better.

Brainwashing isnt it either..... At least where i went to high school:doh:

[WreckedParty]

Eliminate teachers' unions for a start. Each teacher is responsible for his/her own productivity. Length-of-service should not be a criterion for continued employment by the government.

Administrators of public schools are responsible for their teachers' evaluations. When they evaluate anyone, whether they have been a teacher for 2 months or 20 years, they use the same criteria. Good administrators who judge accurately will have good schools. Poor administrators will not. The administrator of administrators will note (or he is not a good administrator) and remove the bottom 10% of them.

The system would then evolve with survival of the fittest to teach.

I would love to see a system where teachers compete, but the other half of the problem today is alot of parents arent getting involved in deciding what goes on at public schools. In some places you cant even get one ounce of a tax increase for schools, so really what happens is some school admins will invest a crapload of money into their sports teams and leave the rest of the kids with the worst quality of education and unsafe conditions. I think it has alot to do with apathy from the people and from the people who run the schools.

[RWReaganfan]

Eliminate teachers' unions for a start. Each teacher is responsible for his/her own productivity. Length-of-service should not be a criterion for continued employment by the government.

Administrators of public schools are responsible for their teachers' evaluations. When they evaluate anyone, whether they have been a teacher for 2 months or 20 years, they use the same criteria. Good administrators who judge accurately will have good schools. Poor administrators will not. The administrator of administrators will note (or he is not a good administrator) and remove the bottom 10% of them.
The system would then evolve with survival of the fittest to teach.

The naivete contained in your second paragraph is scarey. I am a former administrator now back in the classroom. My last three principals all exhibited characteristics that would make excellent case studies in an educational leadership master's program. If they could do it wrong, they did! My present principal is super, but he is one out of the past four.
You talk about using the same criteria. Whose criteria? Some administrators will grade a teacher poorly if their desk is messy! Others only care about test scores. Depending on the administrator, you could go from Teacher of the Year to being placed on a professional development plan just by changing administrators. Teacher's unions prevent these people from abusing their positions.

[RWReaganfan]

Brainwashing isnt it either..... At least where i went to high school:doh:

My strongest objection to conservative talk show hosts is their continuous bashing of public schools. They have brainwashed the people into thinking every school is like the People's Republic of Taxachusetts or the Soviet Socialst State of California when it come sto education. Nothing could be further from the truth in my experience.

[George S]

Does that include professional organizations as well. I don't belong to a union, I belong to the Colorado Education Association. I don't think it is realistic to try and eliminate these organizations. I do agree that they need to change their policies on firing teachers, which I think they would if the evaluation process was more complete.



I wonder if you have ever worked in a public school. Administrators have many jobs, ONE of which is to evaluate teachers. Now, this may be different somewhere else, but I have visited schools all over Colorado and have always found that you had a very small number of administrators in the building and very large teaching staffs. This is the problem. If you are truly going to evaluate a teacher's performance, you have to spend a significant amount of time in that teacher's classroom. In my school district, teachers are evaluated every three years. Why? Because there are not enough hours in the day for administrators to evaluate every staff member, every year. During that evaluation year, there are 3 formal evaluations and 2 informal. This means that this administrator sees about 5-6 hours of my teaching. Why aren't they doing more, well, same reason, not enough hours in the day.
If you want to properly evaluate a teacher and their teaching method, you are going to need many, many more people.
As a side note, don't assume that just because someone is an administator that they are a good judge of good teaching. If you truly want good evaluations, you want to hire professional objective evaluators, master teachers, develop a standard rubric of best teaching practices and have them spend a significant amount of time in that classroom. But again, this is going to cost a pretty penny.
As a teacher, if I knew that such a system existed, I would give up due process in a second.

No, it need not cost anything more than today. If there insufficient staff to evaluate teachers the administrator has not done his/her job. Fire that one and put someone in who can hire staff.

Let the new administrator administrate.

The incompetent among the teachers know they have a job for life no matter how incompetent they are. They have no motive to change anything about themselves.

Competent teachers get no different reward than incompetent ones. What motivates them to improve their teaching throughout their teaching life is because they actually care about the children.

We have a math teacher in 6th grade who manages to let them get to 7th grade never having learned even what is in the (very poorly designed) math text. As the local volunteer for the math competition (MathCounts) for a group of 6th-8th graders I found myself having to teach them how to convert Fahrenheit to Centigrade. Actually I had to teach them the centigrade system first. Somehow they managed to get to 8th grade without that knowledge. Nor had they yet been taught what pi means (as the ratio of circumference to diameter). And these were the cream of the crop in mathematics. The ones who were to represent the school.

[RWReaganfan]

No, it need not cost anything more than today. If there insufficient staff to evaluate teachers the administrator has not done his/her job. Fire that one and put someone in who can hire staff.

Let the new administrator administrate.

The incompetent among the teachers know they have a job for life no matter how incompetent they are. They have no motive to change anything about themselves.

Competent teachers get no different reward than incompetent ones. What motivates them to improve their teaching throughout their teaching life is because they actually care about the children.

We have a math teacher in 6th grade who manages to let them get to 7th grade never having learned even what is in the (very poorly designed) math text. As the local volunteer for the math competition (MathCounts) for a group of 6th-8th graders I found myself having to teach them how to convert Fahrenheit to Centigrade. Actually I had to teach them the centigrade system first. Somehow they managed to get to 8th grade without that knowledge. Nor had they yet been taught what pi means (as the ratio of circumference to diameter). And these were the cream of the crop in mathematics. The ones who were to represent the school.

The problem you are describing is not as simple as it looks. I spent almost two years as an assistant principal in a very large high school. I was responsible for 16 teachers, a standards coach, a security guard and administrative secretary. Oh, and there was the matter of 650 9th and 10th graders. I often arrived at school at 6 a.m. and rarely left before 6 p.m. I had numerous duties that kept me busy at almost every moment when the students were there. I would often notice that I was very hungry about 3:30 in the afternoon and realize that I forgot to eat lunch because something happened, such as two girls decided to try to scratch each others eyes out because one just "looked" at the other one.

Evaluating a teacher takes time that always gets eaten up with the mundane details of running a school. Ask just about every administrator if they would like to spend more time in the classroom and the answer will almost always be in the affirmative. Since i changed states, i no longer hold an administrator's certificate, so I am back in the classroom. This past year, my supervisor spent a maximum of about 20 minutes supervising my instruction because she simply could not get into the room because of discipline issues in other classes.

How do you solve that problem? Spend more money on administrators! However, then you will hear complaints about too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

My high school had a "huge" administrative staff. One principal, two vice principals, 5 assistant principals for academics and discipline, 2 assistant principals to run scheduling and testing, and 1 assistant just to make sure that the 7 acre building didn't fall down and we had the right textbooks of over 3200 students. Even with that manning, we dragged ourselves home every afternoon, only to drag ourselves back to supervise any extracurricular activities, which usually meant we got home by 11 p.m. Friday night nome football was an "all hands on deck" activity that EVERY administrator had to attend. Away games were assigned on a rotating basis. Other sports required attendance on a rotating basis, but you could be sure to have one or two each week and at least one on the weekend.

BTW, just as an aside, I did that job 12 months out of the year for a salary that is $10,000 less than I now making teaching in another state for 10 months out of the year. The compensation for that level of work is criminal.

As far as your comments regarding math, you surely realize that teachers are required to be evaluated and can be fired if they do not measure up. They are given an opportunity to improve, but your claim of a job for life is simply BS spread by those who criticize without knowing the rules.

I taught 6th grade math this past year. You can probably ask half of my students about pi and they will look at you like you have horns on your head! That does not change the fact that they were taught about it, used it to answer problems, and passed the test on it. God forbid that they ever tell an adult that they actually learned something. That is just so uncool! The black kids don't want to be accused of "acting white", so they avoid any semblance of intelligence to any adult, black or white.

if you have been in the schools as you say, nothing of this should surprise you.

[pubschteacher]

No, it need not cost anything more than today. If there insufficient staff to evaluate teachers the administrator has not done his/her job. Fire that one and put someone in who can hire staff.Let the new administrator administrate.

You missed the point. There are not enough hours in the day for most administrators to PROPERLY evaluate their staff. We have 4 administrators, a teaching staff of 95, a certified staff of 45 and a student body of 1700 students.
If administrators want to hire professionals to evaluate their teachers, it would mean that they have to give up teaching positions to do it. They are given a set number of teachers based on the student population. This isn't about administrators doing their job, it is about the number of hours in the day and the finite size of school budgets. Most administrators that I have worked with have done their very best to evaluate teachers as throroughly as they could, but simply ran out of time. So, as I said before, if you want teachers to be evaluated properly and thoroughly, it is going to cost some money. Hire professional evaluators or more administrators.

The incompetent among the teachers know they have a job for life no matter how incompetent they are. They have no motive to change anything about themselves.

I have no idea what kind of work you do, but do you try and do a good job simply because you fear being fired? Maybe I was raised differently, but in any job I have ever had, I did my job because I was raised to have pride in the work I did.

Competent teachers get no different reward than incompetent ones. What motivates them to improve their teaching throughout their teaching life is because they actually care about the children.

Well, I would agree that they receive no monetary reward, but if you know any great teachers, they will tell you that the rewards for a job well done are immense. I am all for merit pay for teachers, but again that comes with problems. I teach AP classes, bring on the merit pay. I guarantee you that might students will achieve at high levels, I'm the person in the front of the room. Show me the money. Tough break for the person with a class of 30, 5 IEP's, 4 504 plans, 4-6 kids who gave up on school years ago, the two emotionally disturbed kids in the back of the room. I wonder if he can get that diverse group to achieve like my AP kids?

We have a math teacher in 6th grade who manages to let them get to 7th grade never having learned even what is in the (very poorly designed) math text. As the local volunteer for the math competition (MathCounts) for a group of 6th-8th graders I found myself having to teach them how to convert Fahrenheit to Centigrade. Actually I had to teach them the centigrade system first. Somehow they managed to get to 8th grade without that knowledge. Nor had they yet been taught what pi means (as the ratio of circumference to diameter). And these were the cream of the crop in mathematics. The ones who were to represent the school.

I work with a math teacher who consistently has to correct our MathCounts volunteers on what they are doing. So what? The point is, we could throw anecdotal evidence around all day, but it would still be just a minute sample that means very little to the big picture.
If you don't like the math curriculum in your district, volunteer to be on the next textbook adoption committee or curriculum committee and make sure that centigrade-farenheit conversion is part of what kids learn before 8th grade.

[George S]

The problem you are describing is not as simple as it looks. I spent almost two years as an assistant principal in a very large high school. I was responsible for 16 teachers, a standards coach, a security guard and administrative secretary. Oh, and there was the matter of 650 9th and 10th graders. I often arrived at school at 6 a.m. and rarely left before 6 p.m. I had numerous duties that kept me busy at almost every moment when the students were there. I would often notice that I was very hungry about 3:30 in the afternoon and realize that I forgot to eat lunch because something happened, such as two girls decided to try to scratch each others eyes out because one just "looked" at the other one.

Evaluating a teacher takes time that always gets eaten up with the mundane details of running a school. Ask just about every administrator if they would like to spend more time in the classroom and the answer will almost always be in the affirmative. Since i changed states, i no longer hold an administrator's certificate, so I am back in the classroom. This past year, my supervisor spent a maximum of about 20 minutes supervising my instruction because she simply could not get into the room because of discipline issues in other classes.

How do you solve that problem? Spend more money on administrators! However, then you will hear complaints about too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

My high school had a "huge" administrative staff. One principal, two vice principals, 5 assistant principals for academics and discipline, 2 assistant principals to run scheduling and testing, and 1 assistant just to make sure that the 7 acre building didn't fall down and we had the right textbooks of over 3200 students. Even with that manning, we dragged ourselves home every afternoon, only to drag ourselves back to supervise any extracurricular activities, which usually meant we got home by 11 p.m. Friday night nome football was an "all hands on deck" activity that EVERY administrator had to attend. Away games were assigned on a rotating basis. Other sports required attendance on a rotating basis, but you could be sure to have one or two each week and at least one on the weekend.

BTW, just as an aside, I did that job 12 months out of the year for a salary that is $10,000 less than I now making teaching in another state for 10 months out of the year. The compensation for that level of work is criminal.

As far as your comments regarding math, you surely realize that teachers are required to be evaluated and can be fired if they do not measure up. They are given an opportunity to improve, but your claim of a job for life is simply BS spread by those who criticize without knowing the rules.

I taught 6th grade math this past year. You can probably ask half of my students about pi and they will look at you like you have horns on your head! That does not change the fact that they were taught about it, used it to answer problems, and passed the test on it. God forbid that they ever tell an adult that they actually learned something. That is just so uncool! The black kids don't want to be accused of "acting white", so they avoid any semblance of intelligence to any adult, black or white.

if you have been in the schools as you say, nothing of this should surprise you.

When they came to MathCounts I just assumed, since they were selected as the "best" mathematician in the school, that in that setting they would surely admit to knowing pi.

I also subbed for the junior high school and became familiar with what Mr Fuchs (the kids were taught to pronounce it Fox) taught. He would have been a great 4th grade math teacher.

Perhaps some is the state's standardized curriculum. Which should be gotten rid of entirely. It sets such low standards that students graduate without knowing what the title of the course might imply.

I also encountered the output of the education system as I taught freshmen the rudiments of programming (okay, I am a dino, it was FORTRAN, COBOL and BASIC). There were high school graduates with a good enough grade point average to get into that school who had taken algebra and still could not actually do algebra. There were even some who had failed to memorize the addition and multiplication tables. Those who could not estimate what the answer should look like.

By the way, you really think that a 20-year teacher in 6th grade could be fired for not teaching about pi?

[jimjames418]

Does that include professional organizations as well. I don't belong to a union, I belong to the Colorado Education Association. I don't think it is realistic to try and eliminate these organizations. I do agree that they need to change their policies on firing teachers, which I think they would if the evaluation process was more complete.
A union by any other name is still a union. ;)

Colorado Education Association (http://www.coloradoea.org/)
The Colorado Education Association is a public sector labor union that advocates for public education and represents the labor and professional interests of ...

[RWReaganfan]

By the way, you really think that a 20-year teacher in 6th grade could be fired for not teaching about pi?

Thanks for your reply on the other topics. These kids have no home life, so they are much harder to educate than our generation.

In regards to your last comment, absolutely!

In my school, if I do not teach to the state standards, I am out of there!

You get a warning of course, but it can (and has) been done.

[RWReaganfan]

A union by any other name is still a union. ;)

Colorado Education Association (http://www.coloradoea.org/)

Unless they have collective bargaining rights, it is NOT a union.

[NascarGirl2448]

As the local volunteer for the math competition (MathCounts) for a group of 6th-8th graders I found myself having to teach them how to convert Fahrenheit to Centigrade. Actually I had to teach them the centigrade system first. Somehow they managed to get to 8th grade without that knowledge.

I didn't learn that until 8th grade either, and it wasn't in pre-algebra class either. I actually ended up learning it in earth science class when we were studying meteorology.

[pubschteacher]

A union by any other name is still a union. ;)

Colorado Education Association (http://www.coloradoea.org/)

Would you agree that public sector unions and private sector unions are different?
Take for instance the right to strike. Many states have prohibited the right to strike by public employees and their is legislation in the Colorado legislature right now to enact that in Colorado. BTW, the last teacher strike in my school district was...never. The last major strike in Colorado...1994.

[pubschteacher]

Unless they have collective bargaining rights, it is NOT a union.

Well we do, I just wanted to establish that public sector and private sector unions are different. Colorado teachers currently have the power to strike, but it looks like that may change with this year's legislation.

[madinca]

When my child was being taught about global warming in 6th grade and had to watch the Al Gore movie and then asked to write about the movie. In this short hand written report he stated his opinion (which was opposing) and was told he did not have the facts, he then asked show me the facts in the movie? Teacher could not state any facts just her interptutation of the movie. Of course the paper did not get a good review. Then when the teacher asked the class for ideas of how they could help our enviorment by recycling, the vehichles we drive etc. what could they ask their parents to do at home a student asked "like your Hummer Ms. ***) she immediately got frustrated and sent the child to the back of the room for a "time out". I actually in the class at the time. I just want my child to learn facts not the liberal or conservative view of the teacher. Where do we find that kind of learning in school?


Don't worry! Most of my conservative friends try to disown me when they find out my views on education! However, having spent over 12 years in the classroom and administration, I think i have a pretty good idea where most conservatives go wrong.

Of course, I also do not allow for any liberal indoctrination in my school. When one of our teachers was promoting Global Warming, I slammed her misinformation with the real facts.