Are the Hybrids the way to go or not so much

[Remus Lupin]

As I have posted before, I'm majoring in automotive service management.
I want to specialize in Hybrids.
I heard both good and bad. As far the bad, one of the problems are the fact Hybrids have so many glitches.
Anything that is new are going to have glitches. Hybrids are still fairly new and will have some problems at first. But, I believe they will soon be perfected.
What do you all think?

[MrShotShot]

I don't believe for one minute that they are holy grail as most enviros say they are, but they are certainly the wave of the future.

At some point in the next few years, there will be hybrid components in all vehicles.

[sironin]

Range extended vehicles are going to be the future. Effectively, they're electric cars with onboard gasoline generators and a smaller array of batteries than found in an electric-only vehicle. They're slightly better in terms of mileage than the type of hybrid that couples an internal combustion engine directly to an electric motor. But they're also several orders easier to service and need less regular maintenance. The reason for this is that while a generator does need regular maintenance, it isn't subject to the high torque and highly variable rpm demands and wear that a regular internal combustion engine in a vehicle is subject to.

[ArmyMAJretired]

My wife's 2005 Prius has over 106,000 miles and is going strong, never any "glitch".

I'll look for a used Insight (2010 model) in a few years.

[slick_trip]

i applaud those who've taken the step and drive a hybrid. it's a bold step and one that needs to be taken for a new concept.

hybribs may just be a transition vehicle as we find the best way to move away from gas-combustable, but we gotta start somewhere.

[terri910]

Well, I love my 2006 Ford Escape hybrid. At about 47,000 miles we haven't had a problem, yet.



And since I used to drive our Ford 150, I'm loving the mileage...*LOL*

[penner01]

As I have posted before, I'm majoring in automotive service management.
I want to specialize in Hybrids.
I heard both good and bad. As far the bad, one of the problems are the fact Hybrids have so many glitches.
Anything that is new are going to have glitches. Hybrids are still fairly new and will have some problems at first. But, I believe they will soon be perfected.
What do you all think?This is what's going to be the norm more than alternative fuels, I think. Everything I've looked at, hybrids make the most sense and they will keep making strides in on-board recharging. One of these days hybrids will spend more time on electric than they do on fuel.

[ressurectedUltraSaiyanUSA]

it doesn't glitch and it operates perfectly.

of course, if some car company in the future develops something that totally eliminates the need for oil, and makes everything affordable, i would go for it (hydrogen fuel cells, maybe even nuclear fusion). i would only pay for oil that is solely made and refined in the United States so in that essence hybrids are still good.

anyway, anything that can get us off foreign oil, i'm all for it. too bad we have a rotten president who keeps peddling about eliminating oil and adopting solar, wind, etc... if any, we need more oil by exploring and refining throughout the US and constructing more new generation nuclear power plants. everything possible that can be adopted, should be adopted.

[sironin]

it doesn't glitch and it operates perfectly.

of course, if some car company in the future develops something that totally eliminates the need for oil, and makes everything affordable, i would go for it (hydrogen fuel cells, maybe even nuclear fusion). i would only pay for oil that is solely made and refined in the United States so in that essence hybrids are still good.

anyway, anything that can get us off foreign oil, i'm all for it. too bad we have a rotten president who keeps peddling about eliminating oil and adopting solar, wind, etc... if any, we need more oil by exploring and refining throughout the US and constructing more new generation nuclear power plants. everything possible that can be adopted, should be adopted.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/

They'll be doing experiments until 2040. But hopefully they'll figure out how to make it commercially viable before then.

[MrShotShot]

Here you go:

[ressurectedUltraSaiyanUSA]

https://lasers.llnl.gov/

They'll be doing experiments until 2040. But hopefully they'll figure out how to make it commercially viable before then.

that is a pretty awesome news indeed. if we can miniaturize the power supply, and adopt applications for this, the 2nd industrial revolution will begin. hope china doesn't get a foothold on this but witht this rotten president, i'm not sure.

[ThrowCop]

Range extended vehicles are going to be the future. Effectively, they're electric cars with onboard gasoline generators and a smaller array of batteries than found in an electric-only vehicle. They're slightly better in terms of mileage than the type of hybrid that couples an internal combustion engine directly to an electric motor. But they're also several orders easier to service and need less regular maintenance. The reason for this is that while a generator does need regular maintenance, it isn't subject to the high torque and highly variable rpm demands and wear that a regular internal combustion engine in a vehicle is subject to.^ What he said...


along with hydrogen to power the MUCH more efficient electric motors on the range-extended, plug-in hybrids.

[WhiteHatBobby]

How the batteries work after they've been cycled through the years will also be an issue.

[Creefer]

In general, if you ask "are they the way to go" you need to answer a few questions.

First, if you drive mostly highway, they are not. Their mileage improvement is mostly in city driving.

How long will you own the car? There is a significant up front investment (along the lines of $3,000 to $4,000 premium over a gasoline engine) that you will need to pay for over time. Don't forget to consider the time value of money when doing so, i.e. if you have a loan, you'll be paying additional interest.

What do you expect will be the cost of gasoline in the future? If you think it will stay in the $2-$3 range, it's tough for a hybrid to make up the costs. If you think it will get back to $4 or $5, they become more attractive.

Also, check insurance rates for hybrids. I've seen reports that they cost more to insure.

In general, I agree that extended range electrics will be the near to mid-term solution, with hybrids fading like a compact fluorescent.

[FREE DON]

Until the cost of buying gas far out ways the extra monies that is spent in the price you pay for the vehicle this will never happen sorry all you Gore and Obama worshipers.

[gdoane]

I wouldn't touch a hybrid right now because of a very recent advancement in battery technology which probably means hybrids as we know them today will be virtually worthless in the very near future.

http://rochesterhomepage.net/content/fulltext/?cid=93452

Lithium Battery Discovery
Reported by: WROC TV
Saturday, May 23, 2009 @10:07am

Canadian scientists report making a major breakthrough in lithium-battery technology.

A team from the University of Waterloo claims to have laid the groundwork for a lithium battery that can store and deliver more than three times the power of conventional ion varieties. Members say they're discovered that sulfur, a common element used for various commercial purposes, can be combined with lithium to produce a battery that boasts enhanced electrochemical performance.

They note that the prospect of a such a battery has tantalized chemists for several decades - and not just because successfully blending the two elements delivers much higher energy densities. They point out that Sulfur is cheaper than many other materials currently used in lithium batteries.

A battery with triple the capacity and cheaper to boot? Who would WANT the old kind? Hybrid resale values will plummet!

Now combine that news with this news:

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/03/lithium-breakthrough-could-charge-batteries-in-10-seconds.ars

Lithium breakthrough could charge batteries in 10 seconds

A new version of lithium battery technology can either provide a higher storage density than current batteries, or can charge and discharge as fast as a supercapacitor, emptying its entire charge in under 10 seconds.
By John Timmer (http://arstechnica.com/authors/john-timmer/) | Last updated March 11, 2009 12:00 PM CT



It's getting difficult to overstate the importance of battery technology. Compact, high-capacity batteries are an essential part of portable electronics already, but improved batteries are likely to play a key role in the auto industry, and may eventually appear throughout the electric grid, smoothing over interruptions in renewable power sources. Unfortunately, battery technology often involves a series of tradeoffs among factors like capacity, charging time, and usable cycles. Today's issue of Nature reports on a new version of lithium battery technology that may just be a game-changer.



The new work involves well-understood technology, relying on lithium ions as charge carriers within the battery. But the lithium resides in a material that was designed specifically to allow it to move through the battery quickly, which means charges can be shifted in and out of storage much more rapidly than in traditional formulations of lithium batteries. The net result is a battery that, given the proper electrodes, can perform a complete discharge in under 10 seconds—the sort of performance previously confined to the realm of supercapacitors.



If you can make an electric car with Lithium Batteries that have TRIPLE the capacity of any battery we have today, and combine that with the ability to charge it in TEN SECONDS FLAT then what's a Hybrid going to be worth compared to a beautiful machine like that?


Hybrids may not be dead yet but if those technologies combined and see the light of day, then it's over for Hybrids and possibly gasoline powered vehicles as well.

[ArmyMAJretired]

Until the cost of buying gas far out ways the extra monies that is spent in the price you pay for the vehicle this will never happen sorry all you Gore and Obama worshipers.

I'm a little right of Attilla the Hun.

My wife and I love the fact that the oil companies make less off of us and just imagine the drop in imports if everyone drove a 50MPG vehicle!

OPEC, screw you, Chavez, screw you!

[Alaric]

Hybrids are a stop gap, but they will be here for quite some time.

Battery technology will arrive long before the infrastructure arrives to charge those batteries. Lets say a breakthrough battery technology is made within the next year. In order to replace just our gasoline commuter cars by 2020 we will need to be able to generate around 16 exajoules (that a 16 followed by eighteen zeros) of electricity per year. To do that in ten years we will have to bring online 30 nuclear power plants a year and build two hydroelectric dams the size of China's Three Gorges Dam every year. Since the current environmental fad is wind power we can add the construction of 1,200 windmill power plants a month for ten years into the mix. If we undertake such a colossal construction project we can get the gasoline powered commuter car off the road. Photo-voltaic power is out of the question. We'll have to install them on 100,000 roofs a day for ten years - the idea is doomed to failure as a large scale energy source since there is a limit to how much energy is in sunshine and how much the sun shines and that many rooftop installations is simply not feasible. We should still do solar power, but it will be a very small player.

Even with all that, we'll still have to have the diesel powered trucks and we won't yet be generating enough electricity so that all the soccer moms can go electric.

Don't look for total electric any time soon. New battery technology is on the horizon, and that's a good thing. Eventually we will get there, but the reality is that we are probably nearly a century away from being able to generate enough electricity to charge the batteries to run all our automobiles.

Most people are completely clueless about what it will take. The daunting size of the task is no reason to not undertake it. We need to do it. We also need to be realistic about the size of the job. Oh, your electric bill will go up too.

[FREE DON]

I'm a little right of Attilla the Hun.

My wife and I love the fact that the oil companies make less off of us and just imagine the drop in imports if everyone drove a 50MPG vehicle!

OPEC, screw you, Chavez, screw you!
So by your reasoning is if cars got 50mpg no one would buy imports I just don't get it. If we could drill and get oil from us instead of OPEC,Chavez now that would be a change but as long as the green nicks control Govt. that is not going to happen.

[CaptainPike]

I'm mostly looking at Ford products since GM and Chrysler suck. Does Ford make a hybrid?

[gdoane]

I'm mostly looking at Ford products since GM and Chrysler suck. Does Ford make a hybrid?

Is Ford the only American car company left standing?

Of course they didn't make that mistake.

Ford was built on making cars that people could afford. Hybrids are rich liberal cars. The other car is a limousine. Meanwhile, down at the real people level, Ford survives on the founding philosophies.

[CHUG]

I'm mostly looking at Ford products since GM and Chrysler suck. Does Ford make a hybrid?

Ford does make hybrids.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/escapehybrid/


http://www.fordvehicles.com/2010fusion/

[Ardathair]

The electric cars with onboard generators are just a stop gap until battery technology improves to the point where all electric cars will be viable. They are also aiding in the development of better batteries.

[ressurectedUltraSaiyanUSA]

Wow... fascinating.

[QUOTE=gdoane;55520861]I wouldn't touch a hybrid right now because of a very recent advancement in battery technology... snip

http://rochesterhomepage.net/content/fulltext/?cid=93452

Lithium Battery Discovery
Reported by: WROC TV
Saturday, May 23, 2009 @10:07am

Canadian scientists report making a major breakthrough in lithium-battery technology.

A team from the University of Waterloo claims to have laid the groundwork for a lithium battery that can store and deliver more than three times the power of conventional ion varieties. Members say they're discovered that sulfur, a common element used for various commercial purposes, can be combined with lithium to produce a battery that boasts enhanced electrochemical performance.

They note that the prospect of a such a battery has tantalized chemists for several decades - and not just because successfully blending the two elements delivers much higher energy densities. They point out that Sulfur is cheaper than many other materials currently used in lithium batteries.

A battery with triple the capacity and cheaper to boot? Who would WANT the old kind? Hybrid resale values will plummet!

Now combine that news with this news:

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/03/lithium-breakthrough-could-charge-batteries-in-10-seconds.ars

Lithium breakthrough could charge batteries in 10 seconds

A new version of lithium battery technology can either provide a higher storage density than current batteries, or can charge and discharge as fast as a supercapacitor, emptying its entire charge in under 10 seconds.
[COLOR=Yellow]By [URL="http://arstechnica.com/authors/john-tim

[sironin]

A battery with triple the capacity and cheaper to boot? Who would WANT the old kind? Hybrid resale values will plummet!

Well, a 7-10 year old hybrid is looking at a battery change anyway. So the new batteries could be used. But then again, a new all-electric would be pretty appealing too... :D

[Creefer]

The electric cars with onboard generators are just a stop gap until battery technology improves to the point where all electric cars will be viable. They are also aiding in the development of better batteries.

We're still gonna need that electricity infrastructure that simply doesn't exist today. I've seen no real move toward improving our capacity either.

[Alaric]

We're still gonna need that electricity infrastructure that simply doesn't exist today. I've seen no real move toward improving our capacity either.

Nor has there been any serious public discussion nor discussion by politicians about how were are going to pay for it. I have seen estimates that put the cost for the infrastructure requirements that I listed in my earlier post in the range of five to ten trillion dollars, and thats in today's dollars, not counting how much the price will go up over the next century that it will take to do it.
And that is just for transportation energy, none of it is available to wean us from fossil fuels for generating the rest of our electricity. If we want to include that then we will have to increase the infrastructure improvements five fold over what I listed.

[jeepers]

Nor has there been any serious public discussion nor discussion by politicians about how were are going to pay for it. I have seen estimates that put the cost for the infrastructure requirements that I listed in my earlier post in the range of five to ten trillion dollars, and thats in today's dollars, not counting how much the price will go up over the next century that it will take to do it.
And that is just for transportation energy, none of it is available to wean us from fossil fuels for generating the rest of our electricity. If we want to include that then we will have to increase the infrastructure improvements five fold over what I listed.


And how do we CREATE that electricity for all of those potential electric cars that would use that damn skippy cool new infrastructure, even if we could afford it?

So far...from petroleum products. We certainly won't allow more nuclear power. Wind, solar won't cut it for the level of demand...Ain't damming more rivers anytime soon...

[jeepers]

Well, a 7-10 year old hybrid is looking at a battery change anyway. So the new batteries could be used. But then again, a new all-electric would be pretty appealing too... :D

That depends upon cost. Whatever is the cheapest is what is going to be purchased.

Check out the current situation: http://www.newsweek.com/id/138808

That is right now. How much would zippy new batteries cost? The old ones are expensive enough as it is.

[Samm]

My wife's 2005 Prius has over 106,000 miles and is going strong, never any "glitch".
I'll look for a used Insight (2010 model) in a few years.

Just wait until you have to replace those batteries in about six years... :neutral:



Best start putting away a few bucks (like about $150) every month for it now... unless you plan to sell it to some sucker in about 5 years. ;)

[Alaric]

And how do we CREATE that electricity for all of those potential electric cars that would use that damn skippy cool new infrastructure, even if we could afford it?

So far...from petroleum products. We certainly won't allow more nuclear power. Wind, solar won't cut it for the level of demand...Ain't damming more rivers anytime soon...

Infrastructure includes the generation and disribution facilities. See post 18 for a run down on what it is going to take. Its staggerig, even if we can get past the objections. And this is just to replace the gasoline powered passenger cars. People who think this can happen in just a few years or that all we need is a battery technology breakthrough are ignorant. (The fortunate thing about ignorance is its curable. Stupid OTOH....)

Just for a second assume we can overcome the objections to nuclear power. Nuclear power and hydroelectric power are the only viable large scale power generation technologies that we have that don't emit greenhouse gases, and hydroelectric power is geographically limited. Wind and solar are, and will remain, little more than ****ing in the ocean. If we go nuclear, we will have to increase our nuclear reactor count by a whopping 15,500% (yeah, thats fifteen thousand percent, let it sink in) just to recharge our cars. And that is just the USA alone. I don't have any statistics for 2008, but in 2007 just three nuclear power plants were comissioned - in the entire world.

Incidentally, nuclear fission is not a long term solution. Uranium that is feasible to mine is exhaustable and non-renewable. According to an article published last month in an engineering trade journal on nuclear power, the amount of harvest-able energy in known usable uranium reserves is considerably less than what is in known coal reserves. Its currently at about 65 to 75 years at our current consumption rate (77,000 tons per year), although improvements in enrichment technologies and reprocessing technologies are expected to increase this by more than ten fold, and more uranium ore deposits will be discovered and mining technology will improve (but then the same can be said of coal)


This isn't meant to be doom and gloom - just a sober look at where we are verses where we need to go. I'm actually quite optimistic that we will overcome the challenges. But give us a century or two to do so.

[Samm]

I wouldn't touch a hybrid right now because of a very recent advancement in battery technology which probably means hybrids as we know them today will be virtually worthless in the very near future.

http://rochesterhomepage.net/content/fulltext/?cid=93452

<snip for brevity>

If you can make an electric car with Lithium Batteries that have TRIPLE the capacity of any battery we have today, and combine that with the ability to charge it in TEN SECONDS FLAT then what's a Hybrid going to be worth compared to a beautiful machine like that?


Hybrids may not be dead yet but if those technologies combined and see the light of day, then it's over for Hybrids and possibly gasoline powered vehicles as well.

It is not quite that simple Gene... First off, the major sources of lithium are outside of our Country and second, the amount of lithium available world wide is only sufficient to build enough batteries to supply the number of new vehicles normally (prior to the recession) sold annually in the US.

To jump on the lithium powered vehicles as our salvation, would keep us on the same path as dependence on foreign oil does and it would take decades to replace all existing petroleum vehicles at the maximum rate of production possible for battery/electric vehicles. And then there is the economics... most people cannot afford to buy a new expensive vehicle when their old car (that may run just fine) is completely without resale value.

We have a very long way to go before we are done with the internal combustion engine. Gas/electric hybrids are far more feasible as a transition vehicle than pure plug-ins.

[gdoane]

It is not quite that simple Gene... First off, the major sources of lithium are outside of our Country and second, the amount of lithium available world wide is only sufficient to build enough batteries to supply the number of new vehicles normally (prior to the recession) sold annually in the US.

Many (if not most) battery powered personal electronics use lithium-ion batteries so we're already of where to get the stuff from. The new vehicles wouldn't take off full tilt anyway. The hybrids haven't either. The first few years will be early adopters and collectors, and the price will naturally be a bit high as with any new technology so the demand won't be nearly the same as conventional vehicles at first.

To jump on the lithium powered vehicles as our salvation, would keep us on the same path as dependence on foreign oil does and it would take decades to replace all existing petroleum vehicles at the maximum rate of production possible for battery/electric vehicles. And then there is the economics... most people cannot afford to buy a new expensive vehicle when their old car (that may run just fine) is completely without resale value.

The big problem with oil isn't that we're dealing with foreign countries. It's that we're dealing with foreign countries full of stark raving lunatics.

People who can't afford new cars are the reason that cars have resale value in the first place, so there's little danger of used cars having no resale value. Such people are a part of the market. They may be low on the totem pole, but they are part of the pole.


We have a very long way to go before we are done with the internal combustion engine. Gas/electric hybrids are far more feasible as a transition vehicle than pure plug-ins.

I'd go with propane/cng first because it's only one system to worry about. I drive a dual fuel Expedition as a work vehicle and it's not too bad on propane if it's just tooling around town. It loses too much power for driving up to mountaintop sites but on flat ground it's okay.

[Alaric]

We have a very long way to go before we are done with the internal combustion engine. Gas/electric hybrids are far more feasible as a transition vehicle than pure plug-ins.

I agree. But look for a shift in the nature of the hybrid - and we do need improvement in the hybrids energy storage technology. Today's hybrid still uses the IC engine as the primary propulsion element. An engine that runs at a single speed can be far more efficient and cleaner that the engine that is required to run at variable speeds like today's IC engines. As storage and energy management technologies improve look for cars where the sole link between the engine and the wheels is a wire to an electric motor and where the engine drives only an alternator at a single speed where it is tuned to be super efficient. Some vehicles are already trying tis out. The engine will switch on/off as needed to charge the storage system. We just plain can't build the massive power generation plants that will be needed at any reasonable cost or time frame. But over time we can build millions of little power plants, one for each car. Hybrids are here and will be here for a long time.

Conservation is also a part of the picture. Earlier this week I read about a simple change to shock absorbers that can recover nearly 10% of the energy used to keep a vehicle going. I was amazed that it was that high. And the really interesting thing is the technology is old tech, just a new application. Instead of dissipating the energy from bumps in the road in the shock absorber by passing fluid through an orifice which converts the energy to heat, the fluid is used to turn a small hydraulic motor that in turn drives a small alternator. This energy can then be used to power other systems. One very promising possibility is on large refrigeration truck trailers where significant energy losses occur because of bumps on just on ordinary roads. The recovered energy could be used to drive trailer refrigeration units.

[gdoane]

I agree. But look for a shift in the nature of the hybrid - and we do need improvement in the hybrids energy storage technology. Today's hybrid still uses the IC engine as the primary propulsion element. An engine that runs at a single speed can be far more efficient and cleaner that the engine that is required to run at variable speeds like today's IC engines. As storage and energy management technologies improve look for cars where the sole link between the engine and the wheels is a wire to an electric motor and where the engine drives only an alternator at a single speed where it is tuned to be super efficient. Some vehicles are already trying tis out. The engine will switch on/off as needed to charge the storage system. We just plain can't build the massive power generation plants that will be needed at any reasonable cost or time frame. But over time we can build millions of little power plants, one for each car. Hybrids are here and will be here for a long time.

Conservation is also a part of the picture. Earlier this week I read about a simple change to shock absorbers that can recover nearly 10% of the energy used to keep a vehicle going. I was amazed that it was that high. And the really interesting thing is the technology is old tech, just a new application. Instead of dissipating the energy from bumps in the road in the shock absorber by passing fluid through an orifice which converts the energy to heat, the fluid is used to turn a small hydraulic motor that in turn drives a small alternator. This energy can then be used to power other systems. One very promising possibility is on large refrigeration truck trailers where significant energy losses occur because of bumps on just on ordinary roads. The recovered energy could be used to drive trailer refrigeration units.

A great, another cause for the greenies.

"Save our wetlands!"
"Save the rain forest!"
"Save the spotted owl!"
"SAVE OUR POTHOLES!"

[Alaric]

"SAVE OUR POTHOLES!"

:))

Just think of all the asphalt we'll save!!!!

[Samm]

Many (if not most) battery powered personal electronics use lithium-ion batteries so we're already of where to get the stuff from. The new vehicles wouldn't take off full tilt anyway. The hybrids haven't either. The first few years will be early adopters and collectors, and the price will naturally be a bit high as with any new technology so the demand won't be nearly the same as conventional vehicles at first.

The big problem with oil isn't that we're dealing with foreign countries. It's that we're dealing with foreign countries full of stark raving lunatics.
Canada and Mexico are our top two oil suppliers followed by Saudi Arabia, Nigeria and now Iraq. Stark raving lunatics may live there (even in Canada), but they like money more than they like blowing stuff up. My point was, that most of the World's reserves of Lithium are also in foreign countries... mostly South American Countries... Chile, Argentina and recently Bolivia, and in Australia, Canada and Zimbabwe. We would simply be trading one dependence for another; dealing with a new set of politically unstable governments.

People who can't afford new cars are the reason that cars have resale value in the first place, so there's little danger of used cars having no resale value. Such people are a part of the market. They may be low on the totem pole, but they are part of the pole.
If there is a push... maybe government subsidies... to get gasoline powered cars off the market, the value of them will plummet. Much as occurred when the price of gas shot up last year and people tried to get rid of gas hogs for something more economical. Lots were full of big SUVs and Pickups. If all new cars manufactured were hybrids... the market would be flooded with used cars and the trade-in value would fall, making the price of the new car that much higher.

I'd go with propane/cng first because it's only one system to worry about. I drive a dual fuel Expedition as a work vehicle and it's not too bad on propane if it's just tooling around town. It loses too much power for driving up to mountaintop sites but on flat ground it's okay.
Yes, that is an alternative too, but for most urban traffic it is hard to beat the gas/electric vehicles. The virtually zero fuel consumption when sitting still in traffic and the instant get-up-and-go torque is hard to beat. I'm sure a propane/cng/electric would do equally well.

[Samm]

I agree. But look for a shift in the nature of the hybrid - and we do need improvement in the hybrids energy storage technology. Today's hybrid still uses the IC engine as the primary propulsion element. An engine that runs at a single speed can be far more efficient and cleaner that the engine that is required to run at variable speeds like today's IC engines. As storage and energy management technologies improve look for cars where the sole link between the engine and the wheels is a wire to an electric motor and where the engine drives only an alternator at a single speed where it is tuned to be super efficient. Some vehicles are already trying tis out. The engine will switch on/off as needed to charge the storage system. We just plain can't build the massive power generation plants that will be needed at any reasonable cost or time frame. But over time we can build millions of little power plants, one for each car. Hybrids are here and will be here for a long time.

Conservation is also a part of the picture. Earlier this week I read about a simple change to shock absorbers that can recover nearly 10% of the energy used to keep a vehicle going. I was amazed that it was that high. And the really interesting thing is the technology is old tech, just a new application. Instead of dissipating the energy from bumps in the road in the shock absorber by passing fluid through an orifice which converts the energy to heat, the fluid is used to turn a small hydraulic motor that in turn drives a small alternator. This energy can then be used to power other systems. One very promising possibility is on large refrigeration truck trailers where significant energy losses occur because of bumps on just on ordinary roads. The recovered energy could be used to drive trailer refrigeration units.

Years ago Honda experimented - built prototypes - with an electric car that charged on the go by means of a small gasoline (motorcycle) engine that ran continuously at optimum efficiency rpm as long as the batteries needed charging. It looked like the ideal way to go to me at the time... I have no idea why they abandoned that technology and went in new directions.

[CaptainPike]

Years ago Honda experimented - built prototypes - with an electric car that charged on the go by means of a small gasoline (motorcycle) engine that ran continuously at optimum efficiency rpm as long as the batteries needed charging. It looked like the ideal way to go to me at the time... I have no idea why they abandoned that technology and went in new directions.

Isn't that pretty much what the Chevy Volt is?

[Samm]

Isn't that pretty much what the Chevy Volt is?

I think so... I am not certain. My point was that Honda was developing that technology almost 20 years ago... the Chevy Volt is not yet on the road and it is damned expensive (almost $40k) considering the size class of the vehicle.

It is a great concept. A high-torque electric drive train combined with a fuel efficient internal combustion engine to keep the batteries charged, plus an external power source charger to take the advantages of cheaper grid power. I would seriously be looking at such a vehicle... if the price was reasonable.