If Gun-free Zones Make People Safer, then Why is Dr Tiller DEAD?

[BillyBobUSA]

I have read numerous places that the doctor had 'tight security' round the clock.

So is this why the killer waited for the Dr in church?

And if so, then is it not apparent that these gun free zones at churches make people more Vulnerable instead of safer? Tiller had a bodyguard who did not accompany him into church, I guess someone felt the guard was not needed.

Gun free zones are a murder-magnet, not a safe haven from guns.

[ogibillm]

you really think that it was the gun free zone and not the predictable public appearance without a body guard? say dr. tiller went to the grocers every saturday at 4 pm without his bodyguard... what's wrong with waiting for him then?

i'm also putting money on the church shooting having its own symbolism that a killing elsewhere wouldn't carry.

[BillyBobUSA]

you really think that it was the gun free zone and not the predictable public appearance without a body guard?

Why in Gods Sweet Name do you think these two things are completely unrelated?

ROFLMAO

say dr. tiller went to the grocers every saturday at 4 pm without his bodyguard... what's wrong with waiting for him then?

That is the point, duh, Dr Tiller DID NOT go without his security, EVER, except a few times and the church attendance which requires no guns in it by law was obviously known to the murderer that killed him.

i'm also putting money on the church shooting having its own symbolism that a killing elsewhere wouldn't carry.

Symbolism? Of what, how spiritually dead Lutheranism might be in the murderers opinion?

It is not symbolism to calculate that the DR would be completely unarmed while at church because it is the law.

And what about malls that have no gun policies? They are frequently the scene of gun related murders because they make the killers relatively safe for the murderers.

Why dont people go on shooting sprees at the gun range, the NRA HQ or the local police station?

Because there are armed people there that can SHOOT BACK.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to fathom this, dude.

[Samm]

you really think that it was the gun free zone and not the predictable public appearance without a body guard? say dr. tiller went to the grocers every saturday at 4 pm without his bodyguard... what's wrong with waiting for him then?

i'm also putting money on the church shooting having its own symbolism that a killing elsewhere wouldn't carry.

While I would not rule out the symbolism theory, the more likely case is that the killer knew that Tiller did not go to the grocery every Saturday at 4:00 p.m. or anywhere else without his bodyguard. He most likely knew that church was the only place that Tiller went routinely where nobody would be armed and able to stop him from killing him. Logic dictates that someone bent on assassination will study the mark's routine thoroughly before developing and pulling off their plan of attack. I'll put my money on the symbolism of the church setting being no more than icing on the cake, so to speak.

The premise stands... Gun free zones are potential killing zones.

[Buffalo]

he could have just as easily targeted him with a rifle from long distance. Dr. Slepian was murdered through his window. And I'm sure the fellow worshipers would be all set to jump up, targets locked on, to stop the guy if they had guns.

I have issues with no gun zones, but I doubt this guy could have been stopped if they didn't exist. Fact is, anti gun nuts could make the argument that if citizens couldn't have guns, Dr. Tiller would be safe. Both arguments are pretty weak.

[ThrowCop]

If Gun-free Zones Make People Safer, then Why is Dr Tiller DEAD?'cause bad people break laws...

anything else?

[USAF Medic]

'cause bad people break laws...

anything else?

So in other words we are only safe from law "abiding" citizens.
all the laws in the world restricting gun ownership won't make anyone safer since criminals are NOT law abiding.

[angelicmadrigal]

Frankly any private bussiness or home has a right to decide whether you may or may not bring firearms on thier owned premesis. You always have the choice of not going there.

[Samm]

he could have just as easily targeted him with a rifle from long distance. Dr. Slepian was murdered through his window. And I'm sure the fellow worshipers would be all set to jump up, targets locked on, to stop the guy if they had guns.

I have issues with no gun zones, but I doubt this guy could have been stopped if they didn't exist. Fact is, anti gun nuts could make the argument that if citizens couldn't have guns, Dr. Tiller would be safe. Both arguments are pretty weak.

Agreed, but the knowledge that nobody will be shooting back still makes such venues more attractive to those bent on killing.

[ConstitutionHugger]

So in other words we are only safe from law "abiding" citizens.
all the laws in the world restricting gun ownership won't make anyone safer since criminals are NOT law abiding.


+1million!!!!!!!

Very True, as Thomas Jefferson said (paraphrased) "Laws do not affect those that are not inclined to abide by them"

[notluzn]

'cause bad people break laws...

anything else?Which is why good people are the target for these laws. Thanks.

[ThrowCop]

So in other words we are only safe from law "abiding" citizens.
all the laws in the world restricting gun ownership won't make anyone safer since criminals are NOT law abiding.Yep.

That was my badly addressed point. ;)

[BillyBobUSA]

he could have just as easily targeted him with a rifle from long distance. Dr. Slepian was murdered through his window. And I'm sure the fellow worshipers would be all set to jump up, targets locked on, to stop the guy if they had guns.

It only takes one such worshipper, and yes it has happened. MAss shootings in churches have been stopped 'dead in their tracks' by armed people at the church targetted.

And there is nothing easy about shooting people at a distance.

I have issues with no gun zones, but I doubt this guy could have been stopped if they didn't exist. Fact is, anti gun nuts could make the argument that if citizens couldn't have guns, Dr. Tiller would be safe. Both arguments are pretty weak.

But the facts support the position that gun free zones are counter productive, while nothing supports the gun free zone advocates except for stubborn refusal to think.

[Buffalo]

It only takes one such worshipper, and yes it has happened. MAss shootings in churches have been stopped 'dead in their tracks' by armed people at the church targetted.

And there is nothing easy about shooting people at a distance.
It's happened many times. Lee Boyd Malvo comes to mind. I mentioned James Kopp. It's really not that difficult to take down a human sized target at 300 yards if that's your intention. Really all I'm saying is this guy had a goal of killing that doctor and it was gonna happen. As for the stopping mass shootings, I agree, it has. But this wasn't a mass shooting and once again, my point is an armed parishoner wasn't gonna be ready to take him down before he shot the doctor. My post is speaking to the thread title only.



But the facts support the position that gun free zones are counter productive, while nothing supports the gun free zone advocates except for stubborn refusal to think.Again, I am not for gun free zones, just responding to the thread title.

[sgtmac_46]

I have read numerous places that the doctor had 'tight security' round the clock.

So is this why the killer waited for the Dr in church?

And if so, then is it not apparent that these gun free zones at churches make people more Vulnerable instead of safer? Tiller had a bodyguard who did not accompany him into church, I guess someone felt the guard was not needed.

Gun free zones are a murder-magnet, not a safe haven from guns.

The 'Gun Free Zone' sign wasn't big enough?

By the way, do they print those bi-lingual?

[sgtmac_46]

you really think that it was the gun free zone and not the predictable public appearance without a body guard? say dr. tiller went to the grocers every saturday at 4 pm without his bodyguard... what's wrong with waiting for him then?

i'm also putting money on the church shooting having its own symbolism that a killing elsewhere wouldn't carry.

The church shooting was because it was a regular pattern, nothing else. Church is the same day, same time every week. I doubt Tiller kept the same pattern as consistently anywhere else in his life.


I know a thing or two about protection work........the FIRST thing you don't want to do if you don't want your client to get killed is NEVER maintain a predictable pattern of movement.........any guess at symbolism would be shear supposition, and likely secondary to the fact that the church represented the best available place and time to get the guy.

[Cav Scout]

It matters not. All the gun free zones, all the gun control, all the bullet proof protective devices and structures, all the body guards, all the secret service agents and investigations, if you want someone dead badly enough, it will happen. NO ONE is untouchable, NO ONE. It just depends on how badly you want it and the price you are willing to pay, whether it is money or personal sacrifice...

[Samm]

It matters not. All the gun free zones, all the gun control, all the bullet proof protective devices and structures, all the body guards, all the secret service agents and investigations, if you want someone dead badly enough, it will happen. NO ONE is untouchable, NO ONE. It just depends on how badly you want it and the price you are willing to pay, whether it is money or personal sacrifice...

Agreed, but as I said before... the knowledge that nobody will be shooting back still makes such venues (gun free zones) more attractive to those bent on killing.

[Mobulis]

I have read numerous places that the doctor had 'tight security' round the clock.

So is this why the killer waited for the Dr in church?

And if so, then is it not apparent that these gun free zones at churches make people more Vulnerable instead of safer? Tiller had a bodyguard who did not accompany him into church, I guess someone felt the guard was not needed.

Gun free zones are a murder-magnet, not a safe haven from guns.


Because nothing is 100%.

[FREE DON]

If the Kansas Gov. had the balls to shut him down this man might still alive it's on her watch so it's her fault sorry it has nothing to do with GUNS.