Doctor errors kill........

[sgtmac_46]

According to an Institute of Medicine study as many as 98,000 deaths each year are attributable to medical errors! Where is the oversight of doctors? Medical review boards are made up of doctors, how can we trust doctors to watch each other? 98,000 is a crisis!

Preventable adverse events are a leading cause of death in the United States. When extrapolated to the over 33.6 million admissions to U.S. hospitals in 1997, the results of these two studies imply that at least 44,000 and perhaps as many as 98,000 Americans die in hospitals each year as a result of medical errors.3 Even when using the lower estimate, deaths in hospitals due to preventable adverse events exceed the number attributable to the 8th-leading cause of death.4 Deaths due to preventable adverse events exceed the deaths attributable to motor vehicle accidents (43,458), breast cancer (42,297) or AIDS (16,516).5

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309068371

[Late2TheParty]

You're leaving out nurses, who must have some responsibility as well.

From everything I read (and having had several doctors in the family), I would say the barrier to entry into the profession is too high. Doctors can also be overworked via high tuition they have to pay back, low-paying internship years, and, if in a practice, high medical insurance rates.

I'm not talking about letting any idiot be a doctor, but there is little reason for four years of general college education that may have nothing to do with the medical profession. (You can take biology before you enter some medical schools, but you can also get a philosophy degree becaue some don't care). So reducing the excess schooling by 4 years may be a way to go.

Also, foreign doctors from perfectly competent 1st world countries may have a tough time getting in and being credentialed without starting several steps (years) back.

I would say high medical insurance rates is a problem, for both the patient and the doctor. I live in PA, a general practice doctor pays almost 1 million a year now IIRC. It drives doctors out, and that means less doctors overall serving a growing populace.

Also, by law, some nurses can't do some relatively simple things that doctors are allowed to. Ron Paul talked about having nursing degrees where the advanced nurses can take over those lowering the cost to patients (although Dr. are against this as it lowers their pay).

With an aging population, it's something to think about (Japan is making robots aimed for this, seriously).

[jimjames418]

According to an Institute of Medicine study as many as 98,000 deaths each year are attributable to medical errors! Where is the oversight of doctors? Medical review boards are made up of doctors, how can we trust doctors to watch each other? 98,000 is a crisis!
Actually sgt, according to the latest stats, medical errors are the 3rd leading cause of death in the U.S. But in Canada medical errors are the leading cause of death according to the stats.

We are working on getting the problem fixed, but that is like it is with the police, the professionals in the profession do not think it is a problem and we are having trouble making them see that it is a problem. :doh:

[Late2TheParty]

I think this tragic story of a woman undergoing amputation of all 4 of her limbs based on medical errors pertains to this thread, she didn't die, but in some ways it's much worse:
http://www.healthzone.ca/health/article/642987

[sgtmac_46]

Actually sgt, according to the latest stats, medical errors are the 3rd leading cause of death in the U.S. But in Canada medical errors are the leading cause of death according to the stats.

We are working on getting the problem fixed, but that is like it is with the police, the professionals in the profession do not think it is a problem and we are having trouble making them see that it is a problem. :doh:

Could be some folks are so fixated on more sensational problems, that they can't recognize a REAL problem when they see it.......or when is the last time you saw one of these nearly 100,000 deaths make the front page? :doh:


Of course at the same time, who's qualified to judge doctors except other doctors? :think:

If we applied the same rules some apply to other professions, anyone who has watched a few episodes of ER could second guess a doctor! ;)

[jimjames418]

Could be some folks are so fixated on more sensational problems, that they can't recognize a REAL problem when they see it.......or when is the last time you saw one of these nearly 100,000 deaths make the front page? :doh:
Seems your PR people are falling down on the job then and the medical PR people are doing a good job. ;)

State fines John Muir Medical Center $25000 for medical error (http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12413244)

San Jose Mercury News - ‎May 20, 2009‎

Not a death, but it is a headline.

[jimjames418]

And sgt, we are making progress on the medical end.

US Health Care System Fails to Protect Patients From Deadly ... (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-20-2009/0005029949&EDATE=)

PR Newswire (press release) - ‎May 20, 2009‎
The report prompted a flurry of activity in Washington , including seven high profile hearings in Congress and the introduction of five medical error bills. ...

If you know of such activity regarding law enforcement, please let me know because I cannot find any.

[Late2TheParty]

Of course at the same time, who's qualified to judge doctors except other doctors? :think:

People who are given information about the situation, typical treatments, etcetar. AKA a jury...

We need to judge others all the time without being fully in their shoes.

[RogerDodger]

people who are given information about the situation, typical treatments, etcetar. Aka a jury...

We need to judge others all the time without being fully in their shoes.

+1

[BillyBobUSA]

Doctors kill more people each year than are killed with guns.

I guess people pick the bad things that they crusade against based on things other than simple facts.

[johnrocks]

I'm no Doctor but the last thing I want is government overseeing this.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

One reason why the EMR is a good thing, in spite of wingnut conspiracy theories.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

You're leaving out nurses, who must have some responsibility as well.

Of course we do. But it would curl your hair to know of the number of errors/near-misses caught by nurses and pharmacists. And in teaching hospitals? I've witnessed nurses/pharmacists save a doc's ass innumerable times.

[FidelisAdMortem]

Wow almost 100,000 careless deaths, I dont think my profession can even come close to that throughout our history, but going by the media and this forum you would think otherwise.

Go figure.

[jimjames418]

Wow almost 100,000 careless deaths, I dont think my profession can even come close to that throughout our history, but going by the media and this forum you would think otherwise.

Go figure.
Some studies put the figure at 250,000 per year. And if you break it down on a per person basis, the doctors are much more lethal than police officers. :)

That is why we went after the medical professionals first. But once they are taken care of, watch out. :))

Institute for Health Freedom: Congress Holds Hearing on Medical Errors (http://www.forhealthfreedom.org/Publications/Informed/MedErrors.html)
Established to bring the issues of personal health freedom to the forefront of America's health policy debate, IHF's mission is to present the ethical and ...

[Broseph]

I see the fuzz isn't happy about being ridiculed lately in recent threads. :)) Ironically, this is pretty much the typical reaction of any police force when one of their own brethren is accused of wrongdoing. Cover-up, deny, point the finger at someone else or just go back to the old 'The law is the law' or 'I don't make the laws, I just enforce them'.

I guess America is becoming a doctor state. Just imagine. You can do all of the victimless activities you want and still won't get harassed by the government. The horror. What's next? A show with doctors busting down people's doors for 'their own good'? The MEA (Medical Enforcement Administration)? Doctors going on tax-payer funded power-trips and harassing as many people as they would like? Doctors crying about how their profession is hated by the public? Doctors constantly covering up for other doctors mistakes? Doctors being caught on tape beating the crap out of patients who resist surgery?

Maybe even doctors will have a saying about them like... The 90% give the 10% a bad name. Then you'll know we've become a doctor state.

[janer]

The link is to a book that was published in 2000, apparently; however, you can expect more like this to surface as there is a push toward socializing medicine - the implication that there needs to be greater "oversight" is always the first move toward a government takeover.
"Medical errors" is a loose term. On staff doctors and doctors with hospital privileges make up maybe a fourth of the medical staff. The rest are RNs and LPNs, nurse anesthetists, lab workers, pharmacists, therapists, EMTs and then there are ancillary personnel who may, by entering the wrong information on documents, affect the treatment by those who rely upon those documents. Then there are the "errors" which may occur because a patient, either deliberately or as an honest oversight has omitted giving information on a history and physical that may affect drug or emergency treatment. There are "errors" that occur because treatment is delayed due to overburdened and understaffed emergency rooms.
The term "preventable medical error" is also a blind - hospital care doesn't really "prevent", as much as it intervenes - the patient, and routine office or clinical care is where prevention takes place.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

The term "preventable medical error" is also a blind - hospital care doesn't really "prevent", as much as it intervenes - the patient, and routine office or clinical care is where prevention takes place.We're talking of errors, not care and treatment.

Some may insist that oversight is "bad", but it's led to a much safer patient care environment.

[angelicmadrigal]

Oh well then I guess the solution is just to get rid of doctors, since it seems some people think the average person knows enough to take care of themselves and don't need doctors.

[WhiteFang]

Could be some folks are so fixated on more sensational problems, that they can't recognize a REAL problem when they see it.......or when is the last time you saw one of these nearly 100,000 deaths make the front page? :doh:


Of course at the same time, who's qualified to judge doctors except other doctors? :think:

If we applied the same rules some apply to other professions, anyone who has watched a few episodes of ER could second guess a doctor! ;)

Hey, do not like doctors do not go to see doctor, is it so simple? Want to see perfect doctors? Go see N.Korea or Cuba doctors, they have zero mistakes. And. of course, highly trained and so educated very professional police force making no mistakes and. of course, ruined no life.

Proud father of MD

[janer]

I find it interesting that the header to this topic is "Doctors errors kill" but the subject is "medical errors", which are not necessarily doctors errors. It is useful to liberals, however, (and I do not say that the original poster is liberal), to promote the notion that doctors are rampantly neglectful or erroneous in their treatment since it is physicians, rather than the "health care industry" that the government would like to control.
Doctors may be the primary health care professional that a patient encounters in an office setting (although it's possible that this is also a nurse practitioner); however, in a hospital setting, or in an emergency care situation which includes an ambulance crew, a patient will encounter a host of medical care workers, and non-medical hospital staff who all may play a part in the outcome of the treatment. In addition, the nature of an injury, any delay or reluctance to seek medical treatment on the part of the patient until it is an emergency, any delay that is the result of a reduced staff being overwhelmed with other admissions or emergencies, an inaccurate notation on an admission form or chart regarding the patient's history or medications may all affect the outcome, or lead to a critical or fatal event that is not the result of a doctor's care.

[badkarma]

I'm not talking about letting any idiot be a doctor, but there is little reason for four years of general college education that may have nothing to do with the medical profession. (You can take biology before you enter some medical schools, but you can also get a philosophy degree becaue some don't care). So reducing the excess schooling by 4 years may be a way to go.
I disagree. There is a huge difference in maturity and experience between a 27 year old doctor and a 22 year old one. Sure, a Philosophy degree doesn't mean much in med school, but it is 4 more years of growing up that person has done.

[ThrowCop]

Something as simple as using PDA's with simple error-checking when dispensing prescriptions has been shown to greatly reduce medication errors. It not only makes sure the medication is spelled correctly, it links to databases of the patient's records to check for interactions, suggested dosages, etc.

It is a lifesaver.

Unfortunately, many, "old school" doctors still prefer using their often illegible chicken scratch handwriting.

[sgtmac_46]

Seems your PR people are falling down on the job then and the medical PR people are doing a good job. ;)

State fines John Muir Medical Center $25000 for medical error (http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12413244)

San Jose Mercury News - ‎May 20, 2009‎

Not a death, but it is a headline.

You're probably quite right that perception and reality are far apart when it comes to the media.



By the way......$25,000.00? They'll make that up billing for 50 Tylenol!

[sgtmac_46]

People who are given information about the situation, typical treatments, etcetar. AKA a jury...

We need to judge others all the time without being fully in their shoes.
That is how it is done.......but in civil trials, the issue isn't what really happened, but who's attorney can snow-job the jury best! Juries don't really give us any accurate way of judging the system.

[sgtmac_46]

And sgt, we are making progress on the medical end.

US Health Care System Fails to Protect Patients From Deadly ... (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-20-2009/0005029949&EDATE=)

PR Newswire (press release) - ‎May 20, 2009‎


If you know of such activity regarding law enforcement, please let me know because I cannot find any.

No, Law Enforcement does not kill 98,000 innocent people a year, accidentally or otherwise......so I know of no such activity regarding law enforcement.

Law Enforcement isn't the point of this thread anyway......there are plenty of threads for that discussion.

[sgtmac_46]

Doctors kill more people each year than are killed with guns.

I guess people pick the bad things that they crusade against based on things other than simple facts.

+1 for TRUTH!

[sgtmac_46]

Some studies put the figure at 250,000 per year. And if you break it down on a per person basis, the doctors are much more lethal than police officers. :)

That is why we went after the medical professionals first. But once they are taken care of, watch out. :))

Institute for Health Freedom: Congress Holds Hearing on Medical Errors (http://www.forhealthfreedom.org/Publications/Informed/MedErrors.html)

If we're going after fatal killers, truck drivers will come long before police officers. ;)

[sgtmac_46]

I see the fuzz isn't happy about being ridiculed lately in recent threads. :)) Ironically, this is pretty much the typical reaction of any police force when one of their own brethren is accused of wrongdoing. Cover-up, deny, point the finger at someone else or just go back to the old 'The law is the law' or 'I don't make the laws, I just enforce them'.



Sorry to say that I don't personally know anyone killed by a police officer mistake (sensational headlines aside)......I have known several very decent folks killed by medical mistakes.

Some folks, like yourself, are so fixated on your delusions of oppression, that you can't see the forest through the threes.......or separate a real threat from your imagination.

And your post ILLUSTRATES well the notion that you believe EVERY COP is guilty of their 'brethren's' wrong doing.......something I knew you guys would eventually admit. ;)

By the way......what do you do for a living?

[sgtmac_46]

Hey, do not like doctors do not go to see doctor, is it so simple? Want to see perfect doctors? Go see N.Korea or Cuba doctors, they have zero mistakes. And. of course, highly trained and so educated very professional police force making no mistakes and. of course, ruined no life.

Proud father of MD

So you're saying that mistakes DO happen, and that an entire profession isn't guilty because of the mistakes of individuals? :think:

You make a compelling argument.

[John2598]

According to an Institute of Medicine study as many as 98,000 deaths each year are attributable to medical errors! Where is the oversight of doctors? Medical review boards are made up of doctors, how can we trust doctors to watch each other? 98,000 is a crisis!

Any accidental death is a tragidy. But it might help to put it in perspective. For example, it might help to know how many operations are performed in a year? Whenever anything is done in great quantity, there will likely be many errors.

What would happen if we compared our own lifestyle errors to medical errors? I think medical errors would look miniscule by comparison. For example, how many people bring on their own heart failure (cardiovascular disease). How many overweight and obese people bring on their own strokes? How many cancers are caused by poor lifestyle choices? Enough said.