Home: No place for Bible study

[The Bos'un]

A San Diego pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a county official and warned they will face escalating fines if they continue to hold Bible studies in their home.




The couple, whose names are being withheld until a demand letter can be filed on their behalf, told their attorney a county government employee knocked on their door on Good Friday, asking a litany of questions about their Tuesday night Bible Studies which are attended by approximately 15 people.

"Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"

The pastor's wife answered yes.

She says she was then told, however, that she must stop holding "religious assemblies" until she and her husband obtain a Major Use Permit from the county, a permit that often involves traffic and environmental studies, compliance with parking and sidewalk regulations and costs that top tens of thousands of dollars.

And if they fail to pay for the MUP, the county official reportedly warned, the couple will be charged escalating fines beginning at $100, then $200, $500, $1000, "and then it will get ugly." Link: Home: No place for Bible study (http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98895)

[notluzn]

if it did happen it was against the Constitution

[terri910]

Some sort of link or reference needs to be provided on this.

As presented, it is just...well...incredible.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Here's a link to the story as it appears in World Net Daily:

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98895

Or...simply type into Google 'fines for bible study in home?" and about fifteen other sites come up with the story.

I'm wondering if this case is solely related to a 'parking' issue within a residential neighborhood? Like the story we had not so long ago with the couple who was having 'sex parties' at their home? Neighbors must have complained about the amount of cars parked on their block every week. Unlike the other story however, these people are not charging a cover charge at the door....so I don't know how having personal company relates to an 'in home business'. :think:

Whole story seems odd.

~Mysty

[terri910]

Here's a link to the story as it appears in World Net Daily:

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98895

Or...simply type into Google 'fines for bible study in home?" and about fifteen other sites come up with the story.

I'm wondering if this case is solely related to a 'parking' issue within a residential neighborhood? Like the story we had not so long ago with the couple who was having 'sex parties' at their home? Neighbors must have complained about the amount of cars parked on their block every week. Unlike the other story however, these people are not charging a cover charge at the door....so I don't know how having personal company relates to an 'in home business'. :think:

Whole story seems odd.

~Mysty
Google is my friend! :)) I was lazy.

Reading that story, I wonder if it is also because of the regularity of these meetings, in one place. Perhaps they could have their meetings in different homes, on different days of the week.

It does seem bizarre, though.

Sometimes city officials can get on such a power trip that they wind up acting like little Hitlers.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Google is my friend! :)) I was lazy.

Reading that story, I wonder if it is also because of the regularity of these meetings, in one place. Perhaps they could have their meetings in different homes, on different days of the week.

It does seem bizarre, though.

Sometimes city officials can get on such a power trip that they wind up acting like little Hitlers.

Your thoughts are where my own went...perhaps the regularity of the 'bible study' began to wear on someone in the neighborhoods nerves? Or...not enough parking in that neighborhood that an hour or two bible study every week on the same day is enough to cause headaches in that neighborhood?

The solution is simple...take turns each week at another home. No fuss no muss. Not quite sure what kicked off the investigation...but I don't believe it has much to do with actual bible study....or if the country is looking into parking violations that are linked to a business or a in home church that would violate neighborhood /residential parking laws. :confused:

~Mysty

[Dual867PowerMac]

The pastor's wife was then told... that she must stop holding "religious assemblies" until she and her husband obtain a Major Use Permit from the county, a permit that often involves traffic and environmental studies... costs [can] top tens of thousands of dollars. "

Proof positive that Christian persecution isn't endemic to China, Korea, Vietnam, or largely Muslim nations.

I wonder if the county official is a Christian. If so, he should be made aware of a historic fact: the very first Christan church services were held in peoples' homes.

[ImNewHere]

if it did happen it was against the Constitution

There's an idea that we all need to get used to.

There is no Constitution anymore. It's not something that applies to daily living in this country. We've freely surrendered our rights and protections granted by that document in the wake of 9/11 and the Obama presidency.

PATRIOT Act, Homeland Security.... Obama's national security force....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

We are the Soviet Union now. And if you haven't realized this, you will when they've bankrupted the nation.

[jimjames418]

At one time, many groups rented rooms in a school building to hold bible study, but that was stopped when the district was threatened to be taken to court. Even though board policy was to rent to any person or group that met the requirements established by the policy.

Most of the groups then started holding meetings in their homes, just like this couple.

[The Bos'un]

Guess you do not attend the same church I do. We have a large church, day care, and many activites including Monday night Basketball, go to homeless shelter in the city (we help sponsor it, etc.)

We also encourge small groups to meet in peoples homes one night a week, about 15 or so people. This is an idea that has swept many non demoninational churchs in recent years.

It encourgages brothers and sisters in Christ.

[Trinka]

The thing that bothered me is...they asked do you sing?

Do you say ..was it ..praise the Lord? Why is that any one's business what you say...or sing...in your own home...or how many people join you in that?

These fines they talk about..it's either a way for them to get more money out of people or it's a way to stop them from doing what they want in their own home.

[Broseph]

Should any government body legislate these sorts of activities?

No.

[ImNewHere]

Should any government body legislate these sorts of activities?

No.

There's a lot of things the government shouldn't do. But they do.

[terri910]

There's a lot of things the government shouldn't do. But they do.
I hate this phrase, but it sure came to mind: I agree one-hundred-thousand percent!

(I cringe when Randy Jackson says that on American Idol)

[notluzn]

The monitor our water use and electrical use. Now what?

[LoneStarHero]

I voted for all four options :)

[terri910]

The monitor our water use and electrical use. Now what?
I remember reading recently about a city in southern California (I want to say it was around San Diego, but I'm not certain) that put in regulations as to how often one could water their lawns.

The problem most people had with that was that keeping to that regulation meant their lawns turned brown.

The problem most people had with that was that there was a city ordinance that lawns were not allowed to go brown. So, some people put in artificial turf.

The problem most people had with that was that there was a city ordinance that prohibited artificial turf.

Dontcha just love your tax dollars at work? :))

[jimjames418]

I remember reading recently about a city in southern California (I want to say it was around San Diego, but I'm not certain) that put in regulations as to how often one could water their lawns. :))
There was a proposal recently in Settale, WA to levy a tax on the number of times you flushed you toilet.

Water restrictions are not unusual in areas of drought.

Water Shortage & Restrictions (http://www.sfwmd.gov/pls/portal/url/page/PG_GRP_SFWMD_WATERSUPPLY/PG_SFWMD_WATERSUPPLY_WATERCONSERV2)
With the dry season continuing to bring below normal rainfall, modified emergency water restrictions limit most residents to two days per week, ...

I believe that GA recently had a restriction on the filling of swining pools. :doh:

[terri910]

There was a proposal recently in Settale, WA to levy a tax on the number of times you flushed you toilet.
That stinks!











:razz:

[The Bos'un]

I voted for all four options :)
Here you go

http://ts1.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=759295968540&id=7394b84db4ca3ba06eb3105355fc5bc5

By the way, how is Obama working out for ya?

Peace,
Bosun

[Samm]

Google is my friend! :)) I was lazy.

Reading that story, I wonder if it is also because of the regularity of these meetings, in one place. Perhaps they could have their meetings in different homes, on different days of the week.

It does seem bizarre, though.

Sometimes city officials can get on such a power trip that they wind up acting like little Hitlers.

My next door neighbor, who is a Youth Pastor, holds prayer meetings every Thursday evening and has for several years. Being fully retired, it is easy for me to loose track of what day of the week it is... but I know its Thursday when I look out and see all the cars parked on the street. ;)

[LoneStarHero]

Here you go

http://ts1.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=759295968540&id=7394b84db4ca3ba06eb3105355fc5bc5

By the way, how is Obama working out for ya?

Peace,
Bosun

What does Obama have to do with the topic?

[countmein]

Okay, here is my take on it....this stinks to high heaven. When the official asked...
"Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"

That tells me what his problem is. Why ask those questions? IF it is an issue with parking, why in heaven's name should it matter WHY the cars are there?

Then she is told that they must stop their "religious assemblies". So if she was to call it a Tupperware party, or better yet a Victoria Secret party, would it be okay then?

Let's get real here people, if they have people there, there are probably going to be couples involved. So now you have maybe 8 cars. This is a problem why? Instead of moving the meeting around, I say have the people carpool. You could get it down to 4 or 5 cars. Are they really going to complain about that? Unless these people are parking in other people's yards, blocking drive-ways or in front of fire hydrants, it is not the city or the county's business what they do in their own home or how many people are there.

BTW, don't even get me started about public streets and parking. Right now we are having our town's annual carnival. Unfortunately, it is only two blocks from our home. People are parked for blocks around the park, usually half way out in the street (making it to where only one car can go through safely for blocks) and in our front and back yard. I am waiting for some drunk to get behind the wheel and come barrelling through our backyard fence. When there are cars parked out there, I will not allow my children to play in the back yard just for that reason.

[The Bos'un]

I threw in the Obama question as a bonus question. Did I hit a raw nerve our are you just being a tad defensive?

Hey, I gave you the first place trophy for admiting that you chose all four answeres. Why on earth would you respond to all four answers anyway?

:))

Peace.
Bosun

[Army Wife]

I would sue the pants of that city government. There is no way they will tell me when how or what I legally do in my home who I have over and how often I have them over,had they come to my house I would have told them from the start it was not of their business as to if I and my guests were doing any of the things they ask at the door. It's non of their business if I sing or ride a pogo stick with 15 friends in my house...Hmmm I wonder if the local government will be going after Avon Tupperware and Pampered chef parties next?

[Drew2]

A San Diego pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a county official and warned they will face escalating fines if they continue to hold Bible studies in their home.


It clearly violates the 1st A going by the article. As usual though, more facts come out over time and we'll just have to see if there's more to the story. If not, the county loses.

[terri910]

BTW, don't even get me started about public streets and parking. Right now we are having our town's annual carnival. Unfortunately, it is only two blocks from our home. People are parked for blocks around the park, usually half way out in the street (making it to where only one car can go through safely for blocks) and in our front and back yard.
Yeah, but THEY probably have a permit! :razz:

I've been thinking of this...it may also be one of those cases where you have to "follow the money"....The article said something about the process (getting approval) costing thousands....

[dave rogers]

I agree with a lot of you. There must be more to this story. One Godly charachtoristic is to not be rude to others. If you have 15 to 20 cars outside once a week in certain neighbohods thats approximately 400 ft. give or take. If I lived in that neighborhood I'd wonder if the Bible study read the passage about loving thy neighbor as thyself. (treat others as you would like to be treated). Law enforcment may have had their hand forced by irritated neighbors.

[LoneStarHero]

I threw in the Obama question as a bonus question. Did I hit a raw nerve our are you just being a tad defensive?

Hey, I gave you the first place trophy for admiting that you chose all four answeres. Why on earth would you respond to all four answers anyway?

:))

Peace.
Bosun

No raw nerve, as I don't like the guy nor did I vote for him. I just get sick of Obama being brought into every topic like he is some sort of omnipresent evil. It's almost on the level of the 9/11 truther conspiracy theorists frothing at the mouth over David Rockefeller.

I voted all four options because the poll allowed multiple answers and contradictions are fun!

[jimjames418]

Next thing you know we'll be needing a teaching cerfiticate in order to conduct a bible study. :whistle:

[The Bos'un]

JimJames418,

Come on most every good muslim knows that "There is no allah but allah, and Muhammad is his prophet". They will not allow it. We will not be able to get a teaching certificate when the time comes... :(

[The Bos'un]

Go tell that to the black robe judges.

[samurai7]

A San Diego pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a county official and warned they will face escalating fines if they continue to hold Bible studies in their home.


No url for this story? :eh:

[TexasGreatGranny]

I only hope this man has the funds to sue....its time for this taking of our rights to stop and if we just sit and let them local and federal governments will have all of them taken away. I sure wish I was rich sometime so I could pay lawyers to pursue these types of issues...

[BillyBobUSA]

Has that city fined anyone else for having meetings at their home?

[HF917]

Next thing you know we'll be needing a teaching cerfiticate in order to conduct a bible study. :whistle:

Just wait until homeschooling becomes illegal..... :wall:

[sgdp]

Sounds like the "My son was arrested under the Patriot Act" Lundeby lady.

They're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

If they don't like permits in that city/county/state, deal. Get over it. Gee whiz. :rolleyes:

[sgdp]

It clearly violates the 1st A going by the article. As usual though, more facts come out over time and we'll just have to see if there's more to the story. If not, the county loses.

It doesn't violate freedom to practice religion. Besides, this is a municipal issue, not a federal issue. They're citing parking issues, not an issue with their actual religion or practice thereof.

[terri910]

No url for this story? :eh:
Here ya go (didn't read the entire thread, did you? *L*)
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98895

[jwil59]

A San Diego pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a county official and warned they will face escalating fines if they continue to hold Bible studies in their home.


They need to get the permit and move on. Unitl the permits are obtained, hold the Bible Study somewhere else. No use fighting city hall, nothing to be gained there

[jwil59]

Here ya go (didn't read the entire thread, did you? *L*)
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=98895

I just lost all respect for WND. That "worship God not Gov" bumper sticker is another example of using God for political gain and everyone here knows how much I hate that. If they were really worried about worship then the sticker would say "worhip God and not yourself" or "worship God and not your money". People don't worship Government

[jwil59]

I only hope this man has the funds to sue....its time for this taking of our rights to stop and if we just sit and let them local and federal governments will have all of them taken away. I sure wish I was rich sometime so I could pay lawyers to pursue these types of issues...

Lawyers ain't much good for Christians, prayer is.

[terri910]

It doesn't violate freedom to practice religion. Besides, this is a municipal issue, not a federal issue. They're citing parking issues, not an issue with their actual religion or practice thereof.
More than parking issues may have to be addressed:
She says she was then told, however, that she must stop holding "religious assemblies" until she and her husband obtain a Major Use Permit from the county, a permit that often involves traffic and environmental studies, compliance with parking and sidewalk regulations and costs that top tens of thousands of dollars.

[sgdp]

More than parking issues may have to be addressed:

Yeah...what you quoted said the permit deals with parking and environmental issues.

This has nothing to do with their religion.

[HF917]

I just lost all respect for WND. That "worship God not Gov" bumper sticker is another example of using God for political gain and everyone here knows how much I hate that. If they were really worried about worship then the sticker would say "worhip God and not yourself" or "worship God and not your money". People don't worship Government

What I don't like about the link is that they advertise something you can BUY right in the middle of the article. I found that a bit tacky.

However, I understand the message behind the Worship God, Not Gov... it's just that the link could have been to the side or something.

[Dual867PowerMac]

Yeah...what you quoted said the permit deals with parking and environmental issues.
Those are just excuses. This is persecution pure and simple.

I wonder: when is the government going to reinstitute throwing us to the lions?

[markdido]

Yeah...what you quoted said the permit deals with parking and environmental issues.

This has nothing to do with their religion.

Be interestng if someone went to city hall and pulled all the "Major Use" permits for the last 12 months to see how many have been issued and for what reasons.

[countmein]

Yeah...what you quoted said the permit deals with parking and environmental issues.

This has nothing to do with their religion.

Then why ask if they are "praying" and saying "amen" and such? If it was a parking issue WHAT they are doing in the house didn't even need to be questioned. They should have just been told that they couldn't park more than X amount of cars on a regular basis without a permit.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Then why ask if they are "praying" and saying "amen" and such?

I don't believe that for a minute.

[HF917]

Those are just excuses. This is persecution pure and simple.

I wonder: when is the government going to reinstitute throwing us to the lions?

I actually prefer tigers. Very pretty animals, yes? :whistle:

[terri910]

Yeah...what you quoted said the permit deals with parking and environmental issues.

This has nothing to do with their religion.
It has to do with religion inasmuch as it is based upon having a "religious assembly" (which you must also have read)...the permit is being required for a religious assembly and to gain the permit parking and environmental studies will have to be done. There is really nothing within the article the gives much insight into the motivation behind the government representative's action.

[terri910]

I don't believe that for a minute.
You figure the person lied, then?

We'll probably see eventually. But I believe it is entirely possible. I do not believe a major use permit is required to have a party, even a regularly scheduled party, in most places (I know there are groups of ladies in our neighborhood that meet each week for "bunko" or "bunco" or something like that). But a "religious assembly" apparently does require such a permit. In order to support the contention that this Bible study would come under the guidelines for needing such a permit, they would have to have some sort of proof that it actually was a "religious assembly."

[MrShotShot]

Google is my friend! :)) Perhaps they could have their meetings in different homes, on different days of the week.

.

Yeah, like they do in China and N. Korea.

God Bless America

[terri910]

Yeah, like they do in China and N. Korea.

God Bless America
Of course there are other alternatives in this country. I was just thinking that moving the studies would be cheaper than the thousands of dollars that obtaining the permit would entail. And could work in the short term.

And, then the people can work on making sure their government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. That will help in the long term.

People upset by this can spend ALL of their time ****ing and moaning about it, or they can complain about it for a while and then DO something about it.

[jimjames418]

Be interestng if someone went to city hall and pulled all the "Major Use" permits for the last 12 months to see how many have been issued and for what reasons.
The fees for a "Major Use" permit are as follows:

Application fee: ..........$3,060
ENVIRONMENTAL .......$5,340
Dept of Public Works ..$1,975
Initial Study Review ....$2,890

And a few other fees thrown in for good measure. These can be found of the web site at: (scroll down to page 4)
http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/docs/369-July.pdf

[terri910]

The fees for a "Major Use" permit are as follows:

Application fee: ..........$3,060
ENVIRONMENTAL .......$5,340
Dept of Public Works ..$1,975
Initial Study Review ....$2,890

And a few other fees thrown in for good measure. These can be found of the web site at: (scroll down to page 4)
http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/docs/369-July.pdf
Sorta makes you think of the phrase "follow the money" when looking for a reason for all this brouhaha over a Bible study...

Wait until some bright young civil servant thinks a case can be made for "religious assembly" when a family says grace before a meal...

[TexasGreatGranny]

I would sue the pants of that city government. There is no way they will tell me when how or what I legally do in my home who I have over and how often I have them over,had they come to my house I would have told them from the start it was not of their business as to if I and my guests were doing any of the things they ask at the door. It's non of their business if I sing or ride a pogo stick with 15 friends in my house...Hmmm I wonder if the local government will be going after Avon Tupperware and Pampered chef parties next?

In dallas some one was having partner swapping parties...the neighbors complained because the parties got wild and some nude people ended up having sex out doors where there children could see it if they happened to be outdoors.

They said all they can do about it is show up (the cops) and make them be quiet if they are loud and go inside if they are nude...Since the parties last all night and sometime all weekend the other people in the neighborhood wanted them stopped....they were told as long as the parties were free there was nothing they could do to stop them.

So lets see, if you have a bible study its a no no but if you are having sex parties its ok?

[TexasGreatGranny]

I just lost all respect for WND. That "worship God not Gov" bumper sticker is another example of using God for political gain and everyone here knows how much I hate that. If they were really worried about worship then the sticker would say "worhip God and not yourself" or "worship God and not your money". People don't worship Government

Uhhum, seems some people sure appear to worship THE ONE! AND some liberals seem to worship government and the more the better.

[TexasGreatGranny]

I don't believe that for a minute.

Why don't you believe it? City's and states are telling people they can't smoke in their own home or car, they tell people how to discipline their children, they force offensive education on our children, why would you doubt that they are trying to take religion completely out of this country....they are you know except for Islam. Hell in Texas they do DNA test on new born babies without parents consent and if the parents don't know they can stop it and they don't because the don't tell you they are doing it in the first place..., that DNA is on file with the federal government. Why do they need that? Why? And it certainly violate a persons right to privacy.

[sgdp]

Yeah, so they're being told they need a permit to hold a bunch of people in one home when they also have a bunch of cars on one (probably residential) road.

What one ******* cop said is irrelevant to the law.

Here's the difference: you all pick on the bad cop, and I pick on them not following the law. Or if you disagree with the law, it's because y'all think it somehow infringes on some "right".

If we're all "rule of law" here, it sure doesn't seem like it. A

Allllwaaaaays crying persecution.

[pinqy]

The fees for a "Major Use" permit are as follows:

Application fee: ..........$3,060
ENVIRONMENTAL .......$5,340
Dept of Public Works ..$1,975
Initial Study Review ....$2,890

And a few other fees thrown in for good measure. These can be found of the web site at: (scroll down to page 4)
http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/docs/369-July.pdfBut if you read the footnotes, most of those can be waived because they don't apply to already existing property.

Looking through the SD County sites (http://74.125.47.132/custom?q=cache:80vAtwngj1MJ:www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/z1000.pdf+definition+%22religious+assembly&cd=19&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=google-coop-np), "religious assembly" is defined as "religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches." That's civic use, not residential use and it would be a zoning violation to use residential property for public religious services. Now, if they could show that they weren't conducting services and/or that it was private, not public assembly, then they might have a shot.

But in any case, they still wouldn't need all the fees listed...those are mostly for new construction.

And since a search on "religious assembly" through the SD county site shows cases involving non-Christians, the claim that this is somehow targeting Christians is nonsensical.

[foxgurrrl]

There's an idea that we all need to get used to.

There is no Constitution anymore. It's not something that applies to daily living in this country. We've freely surrendered our rights and protections granted by that document in the wake of 9/11 and the Obama presidency.

PATRIOT Act, Homeland Security.... Obama's national security force....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

We are the Soviet Union now. And if you haven't realized this, you will when they've bankrupted the nation.
I've been laughing my ass off at Obama seriously stating to the cameras, "We're out of money," after all the (fake) money he just created and spent (and only after what, four months?)....

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Why don't you believe it?


The couple, whose names are being withheld until a demand letter can be filed on their behalf, told their attorney a county government employee knocked on their door on Good Friday, asking a litany of questions about their Tuesday night Bible studies, which are attended by approximately 15 people.

"Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"

IF the 'official' asked those questions, I'm betting it was because the pastor and his wife refused to admit (or flat out denied) they were holding regular Bible study classes.

So either way, they lied. I could have sworn there was a Commandment against that :think:

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

BTW, is there ANY other source on this story (one including the county's side too would be nice) besides worldnutdaily?

[BillyBobUSA]

Sounds like the "My son was arrested under the Patriot Act" Lundeby lady.

They're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

If they don't like permits in that city/county/state, deal. Get over it. Gee whiz. :rolleyes:

So you think it is reasonable to make the pastor spend $10,000 to get a permit typically used for industry and major entertainment facilities like amusement parks etc?

Good greif, there are too many people in this country who cant lick jack boots quickly enough.

[terri910]

IF the 'official' asked those questions, I'm betting it was because the pastor and his wife refused to admit (or flat out denied) they were holding regular Bible study classes.

So either way, they lied. I could have sworn there was a Commandment against that :think:
What an interesting post, EG. You are willing to state, as fact, that the couple lied....based on an "if" and your "bet" (which is your best guess).....

Seems to me that's about the same as someone declaring as fact that they were being persecuted. :think:

[BillyBobUSA]

IF the 'official' asked those questions, I'm betting it was because the pastor and his wife refused to admit (or flat out denied) they were holding regular Bible study classes.

So either way, they lied. I could have sworn there was a Commandment against that :think:


More antiChristian slander from the usual sources.

Hohum, just another day watching the train wreck.

[BillyBobUSA]

What an interesting post, EG. You are willing to state, as fact, that the couple lied....based on an "if" and your "bet" (which is your best guess).....

Seems to me that's about the same as someone declaring as fact that they were being persecuted. :think:


Oh please, Terri, dont tell me that you are surprised.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

What an interesting post, EG. You are willing to state, as fact, that the couple lied....based on an "if" and your "bet" (which is your best guess).....

Seems to me that's about the same as someone declaring as fact that they were being persecuted. :think:Yes, I'm willing to bet that's what happened IF the 'official' really said those things. Until I see a source with context and including both sides, I don't believe what was posted is the truth---not the whole truth, in any case.

[sgdp]

So you think it is reasonable to make the pastor spend $10,000 to get a permit typically used for industry and major entertainment facilities like amusement parks etc?

Good greif, there are too many people in this country who cant lick jack boots quickly enough.

From my understanding, any business in the county would need the same permit. Sure, then, it's reasonable to include them in that. Only out for me would be the fact that they seem to be not-for-profit.

My problem is the exempt status expected just because it's a religious function. They should abide by all the same laws everyone else has to.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

More antiChristian slander from the usual sources.


:lol:

How is that "anti-Christian slander"?

[terri910]

Yes, I'm willing to bet that's what happened IF the 'official' really said those things. Until I see a source with context and including both sides, I don't believe what was posted is the truth---not the whole truth, in any case.
The point isn't that you are willing to bet. The point was that you are willing to state, as fact, that someone lied based on your best guess.

When you acknowledge that you don't have all the facts, I just find your willingness to state such a thing as fact interesting.

[Antrel]

I went with option 4.

[Old_Mil]

I went with option 4.

As did I - California is one of the few places that might get better with Sharia in place.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

The point isn't that you are willing to bet. The point was that you are willing to state, as fact, that someone lied based on your best guess.

When you acknowledge that you don't have all the facts, I just find your willingness to state such a thing as fact interesting.
If that's what happened, then they did lie.

[StoneScratcher]

What happens when a bunch of cars are parked outside a private home and they are singing and hammering ACORN signs to boards as they organize a community rally?

[HF917]

What happens when a bunch of cars are parked outside a private home and they are singing and hammering ACORN signs to boards as they organize a community rally?

That's called Freedom of Speech. :doh:

[The Bos'un]

He was just trying to be liberally difficult. I even supported Dusty Rhodes right to insult Hillary Clinton last year, but, the left did not like showing liberal tolerance unless one believes and supports what they profess. It is a cultural problem with some liberals, others are more reasonable. I am not sure exactly were he was coming from and it is only an opinion... :))

Liberal tolerance is a complete misnowmer.... :))

Sometimes liberals like to play, "I gotcha" even if it is slightly wrong....

[The Bos'un]

What happens when a bunch of cars are parked outside a private home and they are singing and hammering ACORN signs to boards as they organize a community rally?
:)) you tell 'em Stonescratcher. :))

Read the constitution, even asinine groups are covered under freedom of speech. :))

[jimjames418]

Next they will be coming for those who hold tupperwear or make up parties in their home. :twisted:

[The Bos'un]

:)) ya right :))

[The Bos'un]

Next they will be coming for those who hold tupperwear or make up parties in their home. :twisted:
You know, once they open the door, I susppose they will want to have use permits for birthday parties, etc.

[The Bos'un]

If it has God or Jesus attached to it, it must be illegal :)) Some thing that freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

[TexasGreatGranny]

From my understanding, any business in the county would need the same permit. Sure, then, it's reasonable to include them in that. Only out for me would be the fact that they seem to be not-for-profit.

My problem is the exempt status expected just because it's a religious function. They should abide by all the same laws everyone else has to.

These people have friends over for what ever reason, its personal, in their own home the same as if they had a birthday party for a grandchild...Same as the lady down the street having a tupperware party....

Why are liberals so threatened by religion? and when did it become ok for the government to tell you what you can do in your own home? Its no ones business if you are not operating a business..

bet the same people in this thread who think its ok for the government to stop these people from having bible study in their own home would feel differently if it were Muslims doing the same thing. Or atheist..

[terri910]

If that's what happened, then they did lie.
You said "either way, they lied." :confused:

[BillyBobUSA]

From my understanding, any business in the county would need the same permit. Sure, then, it's reasonable to include them in that. Only out for me would be the fact that they seem to be not-for-profit.

My problem is the exempt status expected just because it's a religious function. They should abide by all the same laws everyone else has to.

A Bible study is NOT a business.

Good God, what on Earth goes through your head?

[BillyBobUSA]

If that's what happened, then they did lie.


Yeah, Emma, anyone can make up some wild rationale and then say *if* that is what happened then they did lie.

But it has nothing to do with the facts; only your own prejudice.

[sgdp]

These people have friends over for what ever reason, its personal, in their own home the same as if they had a birthday party for a grandchild...Same as the lady down the street having a tupperware party....

Why are liberals so threatened by religion? and when did it become ok for the government to tell you what you can do in your own home? Its no ones business if you are not operating a business..

bet the same people in this thread who think its ok for the government to stop these people from having bible study in their own home would feel differently if it were Muslims doing the same thing. Or atheist..


I dunno about you, but I only have a birthday party once a year, if that.

If they are continually clogging up a residential road, then sure, it should be regulated. I know I'd hate to be their neighbor, because I have lived next to someone like that.

And the religion has absolutely nothing to do with this. I don't care if it's for a Bible study or Lia Sophia. Their county can enforce pre-existing regulations. They can't expect an exemption from a law because of their religion.

[TinCan]

From the article, it appears that this has nothing to do with parking but with something termed as "religious assemblies" so, the question I have is what does San Diego County classify a "religious assembly?" Does anyone know? Has any more information about this case come to light? You would think that this would at least be in the local news, right?

[TinCan]

I dunno about you, but I only have a birthday party once a year, if that.

If they are continually clogging up a residential road, then sure, it should be regulated. I know I'd hate to be their neighbor, because I have lived next to someone like that.

And the religion has absolutely nothing to do with this. I don't care if it's for a Bible study or Lia Sophia. Their county can enforce pre-existing regulations. They can't expect an exemption from a law because of their religion.

If it was because of blocking traffic, etc wouldn't there be a lot of tickets issued and vehicles towed? My sister is blessed with 7 kids, most of whom are married with kids of their own and they get together for dinner every Sunday so, would a family that does this require some special permit from the local gov't in your opinion?

[bbt630]

"Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"The first part of the question is the only one that makes sense if this is a dispute over having regular large group meetings in a home.

[terri910]

If it was because of blocking traffic, etc wouldn't there be a lot of tickets issued and vehicles towed? My sister is blessed with 7 kids, most of whom are married with kids of their own and they get together for dinner every Sunday so, would a family that does this require some special permit from the local gov't in your opinion?
Only if they say grace before the dinner and "Amen"!! :razz:

[sgdp]

If it was because of blocking traffic, etc wouldn't there be a lot of tickets issued and vehicles towed? My sister is blessed with 7 kids, most of whom are married with kids of their own and they get together for dinner every Sunday so, would a family that does this require some special permit from the local gov't in your opinion?

That's a good question. I would have to say yes, they should not be allowed to do so if it's obstructive and intrusive to everyone else in the neighborhood. The road is a public thorough way, and for someone to constantly congest the area is unfair.

Actually, this just happened near me with a church. They did not want to expand their parking lot, and their attendees were butting up to and filling up local residential streets. Then again, they were also setting off fireworks and having loud outdoor parties, but the point remains.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

That's a good question. I would have to say yes, they should not be allowed to do so if it's obstructive and intrusive to everyone else in the neighborhood. The road is a public thorough way, and for someone to constantly congest the area is unfair.

Actually, this just happened near me with a church. They did not want to expand their parking lot, and their attendees were butting up to and filling up local residential streets. Then again, they were also setting off fireworks and having loud outdoor parties, but the point remains.

Sounds like a fun church!

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

You said "either way, they lied." :confused:

Yeah.

[sgdp]

Sounds like a fun church!

Def. Profit machine, too. You should see the house the pastor lives in. :eek;

[jimjames418]

They would be breaking federal law.

Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) (http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/housing/housing_rluipa2.php)

The First Freedom Project (http://www.firstfreedom.gov/), Department of Justice.

Very interesting reading. Now if only Obama's DoJ will enforce the law.

[terri910]

That's a good question. I would have to say yes, they should not be allowed to do so if it's obstructive and intrusive to everyone else in the neighborhood. The road is a public thorough way, and for someone to constantly congest the area is unfair.
Wow. No Sunday family dinners and grandpa and grandma's kids!

If, as you say here, that the road is a public thorough way, it seems to me that people ought to be able to park wherever it is legal to park on that public street.

Do the streets of a neighborhood "belong" only to the people that live in the neighborhood? Do you think the area in front of a particular home "belongs" to the occupants of that home?

[terri910]

Yeah.
You don't know that they lied. How can you make a statement of fact like that?

So far as I know, no one on these forums has ALL the facts.

[sgdp]

Wow. No Sunday family dinners and grandpa and grandma's kids!

If, as you say here, that the road is a public thorough way, it seems to me that people ought to be able to park wherever it is legal to park on that public street.

Do the streets of a neighborhood "belong" only to the people that live in the neighborhood? Do you think the area in front of a particular home "belongs" to the occupants of that home?

If they are parked illegally (i.e., obstructing the road), yes.

Why is that so bad?

[Chuangtzu]

I went through fifteen der Guegler pages of searches on "San Diego pastor wife permits." I got nothing but WND and religious blogs prominently featuring the word "persecution," which I did not search.

Nothing.

If I attended a Buddhist retreat at a friend's house and we were told to obtain a permit, I wouldn't write to an obscure blog or contact the WND fools.

I'd call the local Hearst-Argyle station and get real coverage.

But, that's just me...

[Chuangtzu]

My apologies - two survivalist websites, too.

[Chuangtzu]

Apparently, San Diego county is consistent in its application of the law:

http://cfx.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080728/news_1m28guatay.html

Which resulted in a succesful return to worship, for another church, after appropriate measures were taken:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20081120-9999-1m20guatay.html

[The Bos'un]

The first part of the question is the only one that makes sense if this is a dispute over having regular large group meetings in a home.
The problem is not large groups the problem is someone or some people are ****ed off because someone dares to utter the name of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. There are many people who have interpreted our right of "freedom OF religion" to mean "freedom FROM religion."

The social justice police are working overtime to enforce liberal tolerance.

[sgdp]

The problem is not large groups the problem is someone or some people are ****ed off because someone dares to utter the name of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. There are many people who have interpreted our right of "freedom OF religion" to mean "freedom FROM religion."

The social justice police are working overtime to enforce liberal tolerance.

That's something read into the situation that doesn't exist.

Granted, the cop asked questions regarding such, but the law is the law regardless.

[Chuangtzu]

That's something read into the situation that doesn't exist.

Granted, the cop asked questions regarding such, but the law is the law regardless.

The San Diego zoning code requires major use permits for all religious assemblies (see sections one and two, but you'll have to open the PDF file).

That would explain the "odd" questions. If the group is engaged in worship - per San Diego law, the building is a church, and is subject to zoning regulations.

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/index.html

Church: An institution which people regularly attend to participate in or hold religious services,meetings and other activities. The term "church" shall not carry a secular connotation, and shall include buildings in which the religious services of any denomination are held.

1370 RELIGIOUS ASSEMBLY.
The Religious Assembly use type refers to religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.

[The Bos'un]

The city employee was not really a police officer, but, a city employee wanting to know if they were praying, singing, and other disgraceful behaviors. Read the news article a little closer next time :))

Social justice police are not law enforcement police. Some call them social engineers of the liberal tolerance variety. Liberal tolerance is a misnomer, anyway.

Liberalism is a mental disorder....

[Gabby]

Apparently, San Diego county is consistent in its application of the law:

http://cfx.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080728/news_1m28guatay.html

Which resulted in a succesful return to worship, for another church, after appropriate measures were taken:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20081120-9999-1m20guatay.html

There is a difference between a Church which holds services for a large group and a few people meeting in someone's home to study.

As for the weekly Church services mentioned in your links... i guess all they needed to do is serve some win and all would have been ok ... :mrgreen::mrgreen:

[The Bos'un]

The home is a home with a small group meeting outside of their church. I thing that birthday parties and other gatherings should require use permits, too. :wall:

[Chuangtzu]

There is a difference between a Church which holds services for a large group and a few people meeting in someone's home to study.

As for the weekly Church services mentioned in your links... i guess all they needed to do is serve some win and all would have been ok ... :mrgreen::mrgreen:

I'm just stating that San Diego county appears to be consistent in its application of "major use" permit investigation and procedure.

[The Bos'un]

There is a difference between a Church which holds services for a large group and a few people meeting in someone's home to study.

As for the weekly Church services mentioned in your links... i guess all they needed to do is serve some win and all would have been ok ... :mrgreen::mrgreen:
You'll not get far, he thinks he is right. :))

[Chuangtzu]

The home is a home with a small group meeting outside of their church. I thing that birthday parties and other gatherings should require use permits, too. :wall:

That is your personal opinion. That is not San Diego law. And the law makes no distinction for religion, despite the "persecution" claims.

[Chuangtzu]

You'll not get far, he thinks he is right. :))

I think I simply took the time to research the actual ordinance in question, before I dove off into silly persecution phantasmagorias.

[Gabby]

The San Diego zoning code requires major use permits for all religious assemblies (see sections one and two, but you'll have to open the PDF file).

That would explain the "odd" questions. If the group is engaged in worship - per San Diego law, the building is a church, and is subject to zoning regulations.

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/index.html

Bizantine Catholics believe that the male head of household is basicaly a priest. Many families have an alter in their home and do home, family services instead of attending Church every week. So according to the above law, if a family worships privately at home... they need a permit??? What a crock.

[Chuangtzu]

Bizantine Catholics believe that the male head of household is basicaly a priest. Many families have an alter in their home and do home, family services instead of attending Church every week. So according to the above law, if a family worships privately at home... they need a permit??? What a crock.

I am familiar with Byzantine doctrine. Ordained clergy are not lay priests. Lay leaders are not ordained clergy.

Not one of the Greek, Albanian, Ukranian, Lebanese or Russian Orthodox families I know - and this is Manchester, NH with three Orthodox churches and an Orthodox Cathedral, for a city of 100k - holds these "services" in their homes.

[sgdp]

The home is a home with a small group meeting outside of their church. I thing that birthday parties and other gatherings should require use permits, too. :wall:

15 people. Maybe 10 cars. 4 in the drive way. 6 along the road.

I'm being generous.

If they do this every week, it can become burdensome on the people around them.

Respect their rights, too.

[Chuangtzu]

15 people. Maybe 10 cars. 4 in the drive way. 6 along the road.

I'm being generous.

If they do this every week, it can become burdensome on the people around them.

Respect their rights, too.

Furthermore, the City Ordinance is what it is. Agree with it or not, it's not unclear. You'd think a "leader of worship" would take the time to shepherd his flock with some knowledge of the law.

Unless, of course, he was fishing exposure, and not just men...

[The Bos'un]

I was being sarcastic :))

[The Bos'un]

Freedom FROM religion...

[Chuangtzu]

Freedom FROM religion...

Aim your lance at fictions, if you must.

[sgdp]

Freedom FROM religion...

Do they also have a right to break the law in the name of religion?

[Gabby]

I'm just stating that San Diego county appears to be consistent in its application of "major use" permit investigation and procedure.

Consistant in what way?

The only thing you have pointed out is that it puts a requirement on all religious assemblies so that even freinds getting together on a regular basis to study have to spend thousands of dollars to do so.

Can you can that there is a consistancy between all meeting of people on a regular basis? For example do students getting together for a weekly study meet have to get a Major Use permit? Does other social groups have to get Major Use permits to meet? I don'think so. I have been searching and have yet to find any such kind on restriction on anything but people getting together to study religion.

I have a feeling that the law was written to cover Churches. YOu know real churches that have a permanent building... not a few people coming together in someone's home. I have no doubt that the law is now being interpreted in a manner which was not intended.

I also have no doubt that the law will be challanged and rewritten to more clearly state what is meant... such a the number of people, the frequency of attendance, etc.

[Gabby]

I am familiar with Byzantine doctrine. Ordained clergy are not lay priests. Lay leaders are not ordained clergy.

Not one of the Greek, Albanian, Ukranian, Lebanese or Russian Orthodox families I know - and this is Manchester, NH with three Orthodox churches and an Orthodox Cathedral, for a city of 100k - holds these "services" in their homes.

A large number of my family is Lebanese and Byzantine Catholic. Many of us hold services in our homes. That's in Lebanon, Maryland, Virginia, New Mexico, etc.

[Chuangtzu]

A large number of my family is Lebanese and Byzantine Catholic. Many of us hold services in our homes. That's in Lebanon, Maryland, Virginia, New Mexico, etc.

Those "services" are NOT Divine Liturgy. We both know this.

[Chuangtzu]

Consistant in what way?

The only thing you have pointed out is that it puts a requirement on all religious assemblies so that even freinds getting together on a regular basis to study have to spend thousands of dollars to do so.

Can you can that there is a consistancy between all meeting of people on a regular basis? For example do students getting together for a weekly study meet have to get a Major Use permit? Does other social groups have to get Major Use permits to meet? I don'think so. I have been searching and have yet to find any such kind on restriction on anything but people getting together to study religion.

I have a feeling that the law was written to cover Churches. YOu know real churches that have a permanent building... not a few people coming together in someone's home. I have no doubt that the law is now being interpreted in a manner which was not intended.

I also have no doubt that the law will be challanged and rewritten to more clearly state what is meant... such a the number of people, the frequency of attendance, etc.

The law covers religious assemblies. All the examples I've provided demonstrate consistency of application.

[Gabby]

Those "services" are NOT Divine Liturgy. We both know this.

I did not say that they are Divine Liturgy. They are still religous services that according to your interpretation of that law would require a Major Use permit.

The group meeting for weekly bible study is also not performing a Divine Liturgy. The law is being interpreted to apply to them.

[Gabby]

The law covers religious assemblies. All the examples I've provided demonstrate consistency of application.

So you agree that the law singles out religious assemblies while not making the same restrictions on non-religious assemblies. Hence the law discriminates against religion.

Group A, of 15 people, can get together in someone's home on a regular basis to study non-religious topics. No Major Use permit is required.

Group B, of 15 people, can get together in someone's home on a regular basis to study religious topics. A Major Use permit is required.

That's how the law is being interpreted. The interpretation discriminates against Group B.

[pinqy]

Bizantine Catholics believe that the male head of household is basicaly a priest. Many families have an alter in their home and do home, family services instead of attending Church every week. So according to the above law, if a family worships privately at home... they need a permit??? What a crock.
No...the law says "public assembly."

To sum up:
IF the meetings are "worship services" rather than actual Bible study, and IF the meetings are public (meaning a general invitation rather than by name), then it would be a religious assembly under the law (because it functions as a church no matter what they call it) and would require a permit. Most of the fees would not apply because it's not new construction.

But If the meetings are actual Bible study (not worship) OR the meetings are strictly private, then no permit is required.

[Gabby]

No...the law says "public assembly."
To sum up:
IF the meetings are "worship services" rather than actual Bible study, and IF the meetings are public (meaning a general invitation rather than by name), then it would be a religious assembly under the law (because it functions as a church no matter what they call it) and would require a permit. Most of the fees would not apply because it's not new construction.

But If the meetings are actual Bible study (not worship) OR the meetings are strictly private, then no permit is required.

You are right. The law applies ONLY to public assemblies. The group in the OP is a private assembly in a private home. It does not matter that it’s for Bible study or for worship, or to watch the weekly football game… it’s private.

So SDCounty seems to be going after a private assembly only because it has a religious purpose.

Seems the law is being misapplied.
http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/index.html
Church: An institution which people regularly attend to participate in or hold religious services, meetings and other activities. The term "church" shall not carry a secular connotation, and shall include buildings in which the religious services of any denomination are held.

1370 RELIGIOUS ASSEMBLY.
The Religious Assembly use type refers to religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.

[terri910]

If they are parked illegally (i.e., obstructing the road), yes.

Why is that so bad?
You might note that I said "where it is legal" to park. Someone is parked illegally? Ticket or tow.

But so far there is nothing in the article that indicates the people attending this Bible study were parked illegally.

And no reason for Grandma and Granpa not to have family Sunday dinner as long as all the family parks legally.

[countmein]

I guess this is one of the advantages to living in a small town. People don't get their panties all in a wad over nothing. We have neighbors up the road that own 3 cars, one they park in front of their house, one they park in the neighbor's garage across the street, the other in the neighbor's garage across the alley. There are gatherings around here where people park up and down the street all the time. Geez, people can't handle a MINOR inconvience for a couple of hours a week? When we get together at our house, we have our two vehicles, and at times 6-12 other cars. Hell, our neighbor has offered to let my guest park in her driveway to keep them from tearing up our yard because people will often pull into our drive and then park to the side in the yard. Yes, it is times like these that I am thankful for small town living.

[pinqy]

You are right. The law applies ONLY to public assemblies. The group in the OP is a private assembly in a private home. It does not matter that it’s for Bible study or for worship, or to watch the weekly football game… it’s private.Just because it takes place in a private home doesn't make it a private assembly. The WND article is unclear about whether it's private or public. IF the pastor is inviting friends, then it's private, but IF it's a general invite to his congregation or if it's advertised, then it's public. Right now, we don't know.

So SDCounty seems to be going after a private assembly only because it has a religious purpose.

Seems the law is being misapplied.IF it is indeed private, then yes it is incorrect and the couple won't have to pay any fees. WND isn't really a reliable source, however...even with this article, my reading of the regulations is that the fees for the various studies are waiverable and would be waived in this case of an already existing building despite the articles claims of huge fees. WND has an unfortunate tendancy to exaggerate when it comes to any actions against Christians.

[Chuangtzu]

I did not say that they are Divine Liturgy. They are still religous services that according to your interpretation of that law would require a Major Use permit.

The group meeting for weekly bible study is also not performing a Divine Liturgy. The law is being interpreted to apply to them.

Within Church law, your example is not a religious assembly for worship. It would be a family praying together, which is distinct from a gathering of church parishioners to engage in worship.

[Chuangtzu]

So you agree that the law singles out religious assemblies while not making the same restrictions on non-religious assemblies. Hence the law discriminates against religion.

I do not agree to that. I posted only the relevant sections of a zoning code which stretches across seven or eight sections, with hundreds of parts.

Group A, of 15 people, can get together in someone's home on a regular basis to study non-religious topics. No Major Use permit is required.

Group B, of 15 people, can get together in someone's home on a regular basis to study religious topics. A Major Use permit is required.

That's how the law is being interpreted. The interpretation discriminates against Group B.

You are making assumptions, having not researched any other portion of the San Diego county zoning code.

[jimjames418]

Just because it takes place in a private home doesn't make it a private assembly. The WND article is unclear about whether it's private or public. IF the pastor is inviting friends, then it's private, but IF it's a general invite to his congregation or if it's advertised, then it's public. Right now, we don't know.

IF it is indeed private, then yes it is incorrect and the couple won't have to pay any fees. WND isn't really a reliable source, however...even with this article, my reading of the regulations is that the fees for the various studies are waiverable and would be waived in this case of an already existing building despite the articles claims of huge fees. WND has an unfortunate tendancy to exaggerate when it comes to any actions against Christians.
Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. (RLUIPA) was passed in 2000 to address issues raised in the actions by the county in this case. BTW, the pastor, his wife and their attorney were on Fox and Friends this morning for those that want a source other than WND.

The act requires that there first be a "compelling government interest" to justify any regulations that place a "substantial burden" on a church's operation. If a government did enforce any law, code or statute that limited religious freedom, it had to do so using "the least restrictive means."

It would also apply to house churches and individuals conducting Bible studies in their homes. These groups have often been targeted by zoning bylaws.

[sgdp]

Can't they just meet at a church or a Starbuck's or something. :rolleyes:

[nortman]

There was a proposal recently in Settale, WA to levy a tax on the number of times you flushed you toilet.

You're ******** me.














:mrgreen:

[TinCan]

The San Diego zoning code requires major use permits for all religious assemblies (see sections one and two, but you'll have to open the PDF file).

That would explain the "odd" questions. If the group is engaged in worship - per San Diego law, the building is a church, and is subject to zoning regulations.

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/dplu/zoning/index.html

Does it have some sort of quantifying number or some other such identifier clarifying "religious assemblies" other than what you posted? If not, wouldn't that mean that anytime that anyone read the bible or prayed then their private homes actually become "churches" subject to this "community revenue" source?

[jwil59]

Do they also have a right to break the law in the name of religion?

No they don't.

Anyone who has spent any time at all studying the Bible knows that God said it would be this way.

If we hadn't decided to get all political and try to make God's Word the law then people would leave us alone like they used to. WE asked for this stuff and got it.

[pinqy]

Does it have some sort of quantifying number or some other such identifier clarifying "religious assemblies" other than what you posted? If not, wouldn't that mean that anytime that anyone read the bible or prayed then their private homes actually become "churches" subject to this "community revenue" source?
You must have missed the posts, including at least one by me that quoted the law...the assembly must be a public assembly, and it must be worship services, not a simple Bible study.

Now, the pastor claims it was "friends" and was a Bible study not worship, but last I checked studying does not usually involve singing and prayer. As for public or private, there's not enough info.

[Chuangtzu]

Does it have some sort of quantifying number or some other such identifier clarifying "religious assemblies" other than what you posted? If not, wouldn't that mean that anytime that anyone read the bible or prayed then their private homes actually become "churches" subject to this "community revenue" source?

No. It just states that religious assemblies require major use permits - with no qualification for which sect or faith. This, then, applies to Muslims, Hindus, Jews and Christians equally.

And it clearly demarcates between places of worship and those buildings not used for such.

Which might perhaps explain the questions allegedly asked of the Pastor's wife. The county worker - if the account is true - might have been attempting to discover if the structure was being used as a home, or a place of religious assembly.

As I noted in an earlier case, the San Diego county applied the same rigor of application to a church using a structure zoned as a tavern. As soon as the proper permits were obtained, and safety codes met, a court granted them reprieve from a number of the permits, many of which only apply to new structures.

[Gabby]

You must have missed the posts, including at least one by me that quoted the law...the assembly must be a public assembly, and it must be worship services, not a simple Bible study.

Now, the pastor claims it was "friends" and was a Bible study not worship, but last I checked studying does not usually involve singing and prayer. As for public or private, there's not enough info.

I've participated in Bible studies at people's homes and at Church. They often start and end with a prayer. Sometimes people sing.

I'm involved in a marriage enrichment groug that meets at least once a month. Have been doing this over about 2 years now. We always say a prayer as a group. We have even sung when a member has wanted to.

Prayer and singing are not unique to church services and masses.

[Glenn_G]

No. It just states that religious assemblies require major use permits - with no qualification for which sect or faith. This, then, applies to Muslims, Hindus, Jews and Christians equally.

After many years of building, developing, and owning a small retail business I've been right up against "grey" portions of a few local zoning requirements... I have also felt "singled out" or required to jump through (what seemed to me to be) unreasonably high hoops. IMO the information about the folks in SD is WAY too one sided, so far, to throw the local officials in the lake of fire over.

Chuantzu, the portion of your post I quoted made me wonder how different the tone of this thread (& poll #'s) would be if these people in SD happened to be Muslim. I have a feeling we'd know these local officials name's, and accolades would be piled upon them for enforcing the laws and regulations they were elected/appointed/hired to uphold.

[Chuangtzu]

After many years of building, developing, and owning a small retail business I've been right up against "grey" portions of a few local zoning requirements... I have also felt "singled out" or required to jump through (what seemed to me to be) unreasonably high hoops. IMO the information about the folks in SD is WAY too one sided, so far, to throw the local officials in the lake of fire over.

Chuantzu, the portion of your post I quoted made me wonder how different the tone of this thread (& poll #'s) would be if these people in SD happened to be Muslim. I have a feeling we'd know these local officials name's, and accolades would be piled upon them for enforcing the laws and regulations they were elected/appointed/hired to uphold.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I prefer not to speculate, all the same. I can only treat with what is known of the case in question, and the actual text of the SD county zoning code.

[Techgod]

"MILTON, Fla. — Santa Rosa County’s zoning board unanimously refused to let a Wiccan (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w02.html) church meet in a residential neighborhood, a decision applauded by about 200 opponents. One opponent held up a Bible and pointed to it in front of about a dozen Pagans who attended the board’s meeting Thursday.
Others said it wasn’t a religious issue, arguing that a residential area is inappropriate for a church, citing traffic as a major problem."

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/5014

[BillyBobUSA]

Can't they just meet at a church or a Starbuck's or something. :rolleyes:


Cant people like you just leave them the hell alone?

[BillyBobUSA]

"MILTON, Fla. — Santa Rosa County’s zoning board unanimously refused to let a Wiccan (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/w02.html) church meet in a residential neighborhood, a decision applauded by about 200 opponents. One opponent held up a Bible and pointed to it in front of about a dozen Pagans who attended the board’s meeting Thursday.
Others said it wasn’t a religious issue, arguing that a residential area is inappropriate for a church, citing traffic as a major problem."

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/5014


A Bible study group is not a public church worship sevice.

[sgdp]

Cant people like you just leave them the hell alone?

I didn't do anything to anybody.

[5thIDSoldier]

There's an idea that we all need to get used to.

There is no Constitution anymore. It's not something that applies to daily living in this country. We've freely surrendered our rights and protections granted by that document in the wake of 9/11 and the Obama presidency.

PATRIOT Act, Homeland Security.... Obama's national security force....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

We are the Soviet Union now. And if you haven't realized this, you will when they've bankrupted the nation.

Wow. Great post.

[jimjames418]

Perhaps, perhaps not. I prefer not to speculate, all the same. I can only treat with what is known of the case in question, and the actual text of the SD county zoning code.
Do you or anyone here know if the SD county zoining code has been amended to comply with the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act passed by congress in 2000? I know that in some communities it required some major changes.

[jimjames418]

County won't force permit on Bible study leaders

I do believe that the 5 day demand letter did the job.

signonsandiego.com (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/) - May 30, 2009
Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.
“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,” county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.

Chandra Wallar, the county's general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don't need a permit after all.

[BillyBobUSA]

I didn't do anything to anybody.


Your running your mouth.

[BillyBobUSA]

County won't force permit on Bible study leaders

I do believe that the 5 day demand letter did the job.

signonsandiego.com (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/) - May 30, 2009


Wow, even one small vicotry like that really heartens the soul.

Cool beans.