Missing Link Found in the Theory of Evolution (47 million-year-old "Ida")

[Lone Star]

I think that this discovery is great for scientists and might give us as people a great look into our past. This might be the missing link in the Theory of Evolution.


parts of the story from www.theage.com.au (http://www.theage.com.au)

MEET Ida, a 47 million-year-old primate fossil that scientists are hailing as a virtual road-map for our understanding of early evolution.

She is one of the most immaculately preserved primate fossils ever found and her secrets promise to provide the missing link between apes, monkeys and us.



These are some links to some of the news on Ida -
http://www.theage.com.au/world/ida-provides-unique-link-with-our-past-20090520-bfp6.html

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/05/19/human.ancestor/index.html


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/05/090519-missing-link-found.html

[ThrowCop]

I like to wait on this until a fair amount of peer-review has happened.

It is a very interesting find though.

[Greyclouds]

The term "missing link" is a popular conception without scientific credence.

Evolutionary theory predicts subtle changes in genomes over time in isolated populations based on selective pressures.

Most of those changes won't exhibit an external phenotype that is readily discernible from the fossil record.

Really, this common ancestor of the apes is a cool finding for archaeologists and paleontologists, but it's kind of a "meh" discovery for Evolutionary Biologists... at least without some DNA that is!

[Cold_War_Warrior]

I like to wait on this until a fair amount of peer-review has happened.

It is a very interesting find though.

I agree with that.

Finding an ancient monkey the size of a monkey isn’t proof in itself of evolution.

It’s just more life history for people to study.

[roger teekell]

This find proves what??

This was a female monkey..

So??

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

The term "missing link" is a popular conception without scientific credence.

Evolutionary theory predicts subtle changes in genomes over time in isolated populations based on selective pressures.

Most of those changes won't exhibit an external phenotype that is readily discernible from the fossil record.

Really, this common ancestor of the apes is a cool finding for archaeologists and paleontologists, but it's kind of a "meh" discovery for Evolutionary Biologists... at least without some DNA that is!

I agree...completely fascinating find. If memory serves, didn't they say the same thing about "Lucy"? You all remember Lucy right? Oldest skeleton fossilized of a humanoid being? I believe they stated as first that she was 5 million years old when first found?...then they back tracked and stated carbon testing wasn't accurate enough...and most likely she was 2 to 3 million years old? And now even that time line has changed?

Don't get me wrong, ; these finds are important to science. Finding the 'missing link?...hardly.

Question: Why is science so keen on dispensing with God?

~Mysty

[Cold_War_Warrior]

I agree...completely fascinating find. If memory serves, didn't they say the same thing about "Lucy"? You all remember Lucy right? Oldest skeleton fossilized of a humanoid being? I believe they stated as first that she was 5 million years old when first found?...then they back tracked and stated carbon testing wasn't accurate enough...and most likely she was 2 to 3 million years old? And now even that time line has changed?

Don't get me wrong, ; these finds are important to science. Finding the 'missing link?...hardly.

Question: Why is science so keen on dispensing with God?

~Mysty

I get the sense that it is used to provoke religion more so than to introduce something new to life science.

[Marleysdaddy]

I get the sense that it is used to provoke religion more so than to introduce something new to life science.

What gives you that sense?

[captusa]

Question: Why is science so keen on dispensing with God?

~Mysty

I get the sense that it is used to provoke religion more so than to introduce something new to life science.


Science and scientists do not generally deny or dispense with God.
If the effect of God could be identified and and quantified it would be included in all scientific theories.

[captusa]

I agree...completely fascinating find. If memory serves, didn't they say the same thing about "Lucy"? You all remember Lucy right? Oldest skeleton fossilized of a humanoid being? I believe they stated as first that she was 5 million years old when first found?...then they back tracked and stated carbon testing wasn't accurate enough...and most likely she was 2 to 3 million years old? And now even that time line has changed?

Don't get me wrong, ; these finds are important to science. Finding the 'missing link?...hardly.

Question: Why is science so keen on dispensing with God?

~Mysty

The mention of the existance of "THE missing link" identifies the ignorance of the theory of evolution of anyone who believes it either exists or that it is any part of evolution.

BTW Presently evolutionary theory concludes that humans did not descend from apes but both have a common ancestor.
If evidence emerges that contradicts that theory and indicates man DID descend from apes it would be acceptable by scientists and the creationists would at least be accurate when they use the analogy......

[Greyclouds]

I agree...completely fascinating find. If memory serves, didn't they say the same thing about "Lucy"? You all remember Lucy right? Oldest skeleton fossilized of a humanoid being? I believe they stated as first that she was 5 million years old when first found?...then they back tracked and stated carbon testing wasn't accurate enough...and most likely she was 2 to 3 million years old? And now even that time line has changed?

Don't get me wrong, ; these finds are important to science. Finding the 'missing link?...hardly.

Well, the concept of a "missing link" is a fallacy in and of itself.


Question: Why is science so keen on dispensing with God?

~Mysty

:shifty:

Where is science dispensing with God here?

[notluzn]

Question, if one other planets there are no monkeys, then humanoid creatures won't exists? I don't believe we came from monkeys. Thats like saying Whales came from Bass

[brouski]

Question, if one other planets there are no monkeys, then humanoid creatures won't exists? I don't believe we came from monkeys. Thats like saying Whales came from Bass

Neither do evolutionary scientists. See, you have more in common than you thought!

[Lone Star]

I agree...completely fascinating find. If memory serves, didn't they say the same thing about "Lucy"? You all remember Lucy right? Oldest skeleton fossilized of a humanoid being? I believe they stated as first that she was 5 million years old when first found?...then they back tracked and stated carbon testing wasn't accurate enough...and most likely she was 2 to 3 million years old? And now even that time line has changed?

Don't get me wrong, ; these finds are important to science. Finding the 'missing link?...hardly.

Question: Why is science so keen on dispensing with God?

~Mysty

How is this science going against God?

[Marleysdaddy]

Question, if one [sic] other planets there are no monkeys, then humanoid creatures won't exists?
I don't know...it is possible that all the monkeys became extinct but other humanoid relatives survived.
I don't believe we came from monkeys.
I don't believe we came from monkeys either...I think modern monkeys and modern humans both came from the same ancestors. That's what the theory of evolution predicts.

You are arguing against the straw theory.

[Lone Star]

When did God ever say that the Theory of Evolution was bad?

[Nevarwinter]

Just let me know when they find a fossilized SUV to prove what wiped out the dinosaurs.

[JimGP20]

Hmmmmmm :think:.... I always thought that Clint Howard was the missing link. :eh:

[Lone Star]

I still have not found when God said that the Theory of Evolution was bad (can I get some help please).

[fava]

A 45 million year old Lemur is not a mind boggling event.
The hype superceeds the science.
Somebody looking for a stipend.

[Lone Star]

Why are there people that are so opposed to the idea of Evolution? Is it just a religious thing?

[Marleysdaddy]

A 45 million year old Lemur is not a mind boggling event.
To find any fossil this well-preserved is a big deal...the fact that it is a primate makes it even more amazing (given the tiny fraction of all past and present life that are primates)

[captusa]

Question, if one other planets there are no monkeys, then humanoid creatures won't exists? I don't believe we came from monkeys. Thats like saying Whales came from Bass

You probably do not believe that humans and monkeys had a common ancestor.
The preponderence of evidence is that is what occurred.
What you believe and what is reality might often disagree.

BTW I have studied many religions extensively and at least I understand the concepts with which I disagree.
It would be refreshing if many of the critics of evolution understood the concepts they think they disagree with.

[PredFan]

The mention of the existance of "THE missing link" identifies the ignorance of the theory of evolution of anyone who believes it either exists or that it is any part of evolution.

BTW Presently evolutionary theory concludes that humans did not descend from apes but both have a common ancestor.
If evidence emerges that contradicts that theory and indicates man DID descend from apes it would be acceptable by scientists and the creationists would at least be accurate when they use the analogy......

THANK YOU!

Finally, someone gets it. I gave up long ago trying to get that message accross.:wall:

[PredFan]

Just let me know when they find a fossilized SUV to prove what wiped out the dinosaurs.

Post of the day!

[PredFan]

Why are there people that are so opposed to the idea of Evolution? Is it just a religious thing?

Yes, it is. Zealots insist that the Bible is to be taken literally word for word. The Bible says that Adam was made from dust.

[Lone Star]

Yes, it is. Zealots insist that the Bible is to be taken literally word for word. The Bible says that Adam was made from dust.

So even when a fact is found that may go against what the Bible said the Zealots will still say that the fact is not true?

[BillyBobUSA]

Why are there people that are so opposed to the idea of Evolution? Is it just a religious thing?


So why dont you answer some of the questions, Nimrod?

[BillyBobUSA]

THANK YOU!

Finally, someone gets it. I gave up long ago trying to get that message accross.:wall:

But perhaps you can explain why this fossil is such a big deal; in every respect it is nothing more than an ape, from what I can tell.

Even nails are found among some apes, so what is the big deal about this fossil?

This simply looks like hype for celebrating the historic BS about Darwin.

Evolution can be proven without resorting to smoke and mirrors and clouds of dry horse manue.

[Marleysdaddy]

But perhaps you can explain why this fossil is such a big deal
Primates are rare, thus primate fossils are even more rare, and incredibly well preserved primate fossils are incredibly rare
in every respect it is nothing more than an ape, from what I can tell.
It has some apelike characteristics, but it is not an ape
Genetic analysis shows that apes diverged from the Old World monkeys between 29 million and 34.5 million years ago. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape#History_of_hominoid_taxonomy)
So we have a non-ape exhibiting ape features (like nails)...like when we found a non-human (Lucy) exhibiting human features (bipedal locomotion). That's pretty exciting, especially since the fossil is so well preserved.
Even if we eventually classify "Ida" as an ape, she'll move the origin of apes about 10.5 million years back, which is a big deal.

[Greyclouds]

A 45 million year old Lemur is not a mind boggling event.

It is for a paleontologist.


The hype superceeds the science.

I partially agree with you here, but only due to the bias inherent in my specialty.

If they had found preserved DNA, on the other hand, I'd be all over this story.


Somebody looking for a stipend.

You act like that's a bad thing :))

How do you think that modern science works? Rich entrepreneurs decide to settle down and pursue their real passion (science/naturalism) as an expensive hobby, like back in the 19th century?

[Greyclouds]

Primates are rare, thus primate fossils are even more rare, and incredibly well preserved primate fossils are incredibly rare

It has some apelike characteristics, but it is not an ape

That is true, this is a phenotypical transitional form. My only beef with the situation is the lack of genetic material.



So we have a non-ape exhibiting ape features (like nails)...like when we found a non-human (Lucy) exhibiting human features (bipedal locomotion). That's pretty exciting, especially since the fossil is so well preserved.
Even if we eventually classify "Ida" as an ape, she'll move the origin of apes about 10.5 million years back, which is a big deal.

Very true. Also, paleobotanists can infer some information on this time period as well. Given the tail structure, hand structure and leg structure, this primate most likely still lived in the trees, but the flatter, broader feet allowed it greater mobility on the ground.

This suggests that the edible flora of Germany could have vastly fluctuated between abundance at the canopy level of the biosphere and at the ground level. This would make an animal with adaptations for higher mobility on the ground preferable.

[fava]

To find any fossil this well-preserved is a big deal...the fact that it is a primate makes it even more amazing (given the tiny fraction of all past and present life that are primates)

It is not a big deal surrounding the hype of claiming it is the missing link. Granted, it is a well-perserved fossil but the story is that the lemur has hardly changed at all in 45 million years.
The real story, and one that was hardly mentioned, is where it was found.

[Lone Star]

So why dont you answer some of the questions, Nimrod?

I just want to know it from your standpoint.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Well, the concept of a "missing link" is a fallacy in and of itself.

I wouldn't go as far as stating fallacy in theory on all subjects. An example would be flora and fauna...to trace back the original plant that created modern day plants is a fascinating study. Many modern day eco's use this information to discern the probability of future extinct forms of said present day flora or fauna. However, as it pertain to the human form...I highly doubt we have a 'missing link'...or as you put it so simply...a fallacy in theory in trying to create a 'missing link' within a primate form.



:shifty:

Where is science dispensing with God here?

As many others here asked the same question, I'll try to be more articulate in my thought; as obviously I only types out half a thought. :redface::redface:

I don't believe in a Darwin type 'missing' link that would exists in a primate form. Now if they find a humanoid fossilized, that I would take notice of and would take serious time to study the findings. I don't believe we slowly crawled out of the primordial ooze...and slowly 'evolved' from said ooze into lower life forms that slowly transformed into apes which slowly evolved into humanoid type beings much less those humanoid type beings evolving into modern man.

That's not to say evolution doesn't have a firm stance within science. It does. Environmental evolution and adaptation are firm theories and do exists/exhibit in many area's of our environment/animal/plant life. However adaptation is not the same as the theory that Science seems to constantly push for in that we come from primate animals...evolved from primates into humanoid...thus creating modern man. IE, trying to prove out how we got here without the use of a religious idealization (read God created man and woman in his image). Thus my statment in "Why is science trying to dispense with a theory of God created man verses evolved man? "

did that make more sense? I hope so. :confused:

I am a woman of faith...but also a woman of science. Correlating the two can be difficult at times...one in conflict with another.(Like the story of Jonah and the whale. Science say there is no way some guy lived in a fish belly and survived to tell about it..yet I know God is capable of literally anything...so it's possible) I know we didn't evolve from some primate ancestor....I know we were created from a higher power...and I know that higher power created us in His image. I don't know about you..but monkeys don't look anything like humans. They are animals that have resemblance to hands and tool making abilities...and that's as similar as we get to this animal.

~Mysty