Suspended for going to prom?

[Cletus Wilbury]

Suspended for going to prom? (http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=297694)


He is been going to Heritage Christian School since kindergarten and has never had a problem with the conservative values taught there until now.
"after going to school there for 13 years I'd like to think they'd have a little more trust in me," said Frost.
He admits he signed a form at the beginning of the year outlining the school's policies but feels it says School Handbook on the cover for a reason.
"How is (the principal) able to punish me during school for something done on the weekend?" said Frost.
...
Frost's parents are actually looking to sue the school.
...






Ohio Christian school tells student to skip prom (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090508/ap_on_re_us/us_school_dance_flap) - May 8, FINDLAY, Ohio




A student at a fundamentalist Baptist school that forbids dancing, rock music, hand-holding and kissing will be suspended if he takes his girlfriend to her public high school prom, his principal said.
....



I guess the message is, parents read the private school contracts very carefully.

[opsyscw]

Then he should take his boyfriend.

[See It Clearly]

Doesn't a school handbook contain rules specific to that school? This doesn't make sense. Ooops, make sense, how silly of me.:rolleyes:

[TCUFan]

There is one thing I disagree with Christian education. They seem to not acknowledge an outside world. Very much a bunker mentality.

They don't do an adequate job of preparing young people to face the real world and when they get out there, it's a horrific culture shock.

Now, part of me asks, 'How the hell did we get that far away from God that this sort of thing happens to these poor kids?', but the other part of me says, 'Get these kids ready for this, because if you don't, the world will be a most unkind place for them'.

You can be in the world and not be of it, which is exactly what Scripture commands us to do.

TCUFan

[TCUFan]

And CW, could you put this sort of thing in the Religion forum?

TCUFan

[Talk2Bill]

if you do not what to follow silly rules do go to a private school.

[Talk2Bill]

There is one thing I disagree with Christian education. They seem to not acknowledge an outside world. Very much a bunker mentality.

They don't do an adequate job of preparing young people to face the real world and when they get out there, it's a horrific culture shock.

Now, part of me asks, 'How the hell did we get that far away from God that this sort of thing happens to these poor kids?', but the other part of me says, 'Get these kids ready for this, because if you don't, the world will be a most unkind place for them'.

You can be in the world and not be of it, which is exactly what Scripture commands us to do.

TCUFan

the same argument could be made for parents that try top keep germs from kids. Some parents think they need to expose their kids to germs to build their immune system.

I think the thinking of the Christan is that they will get plenty of exposure to the evil evil world as it is... just as 'germ-a-phobe" parents think their kids will get enough germ exposure

[TCUFan]

the same argument could be made for parents that try top keep germs from kids. Some parents think they need to expose their kids to germs to build their immune system.

I think the thinking of the Christan is that they will get plenty of exposure to the evil evil world as it is... just as 'germ-a-phobe" parents think their kids will get enough germ exposure

But like the kid with a staph infection that nearly kills him, the Christian kid is totally unprepared for the shock to the system he's about to get.

I agree with keeping yourself pure and keeping your eye on the prize, but I don't agree with ill-equipped troops for the battle ahead.

TCUFan

[Talk2Bill]

But like the kid with a staph infection that nearly kills him, the Christian kid is totally unprepared for the shock to the system he's about to get.

I agree with keeping yourself pure and keeping your eye on the prize, but I don't agree with ill-equipped troops for the battle ahead.

TCUFan

could be. i went to a crazy Christan school from 1st through 6th and we were all well aware of the evils of society. in fact there were gals that were really "worldly" there.

[TCUFan]

Mine, too. I dated most of them.

TCUFan

[LouC]

Although I don't agree with the decision made by the School it is going by it's beliefs and he and his family did sign an agreement to abide by their rules even if they may not agree with them now.

[ChaosControl]

I guess the message is, parents read the private school contracts very carefully.

Well, duh.
Know what you sign. I have no sympathy for people who don't read contracts and then whine about them later.


The schools I went to were pretty sheltered actually, and basically just about as fundamentalist as this one. Surprisingly though, there weren't that many "party-types" or "worldly" or whatever you want to call it. Yes there were some, I knew them, but not many.

It is funny, I got kicked out of school a couple times for really dumb things and had to go to public school for a little while. I felt I could get away with anything there after how strict the private schools were. Ugh but dang those public schools really sucked, both in environment and in terms of their education. Now that I could make the choices for myself, I'd still choose to go to the schools I did. I don't mind being sheltered really when reality is such a big piece of crap.

[Chuangtzu]

Unless the boy is a legal adult, he didn't sign anything. He's being threatened for his parent's decisions. And it's a stupid move, by the school.

Because some press really is just bad press.

[Buffalo]

Catholic schoolgirls rule!

[Cletus Wilbury]

...

Because some press really is just bad press.

Yes. Maybe this is the kind of press they want. I'm curious how the principal found out about it. The student probably talked about it to other students, as he apparently thought the school manual applied to behaviour when in or around the school.

[ChaosControl]

Catholic schoolgirls rule!

I like the outfits anyway...


Seriously, girls should wear skirts. Enough with this pants crap.

[LouC]

Unless the boy is a legal adult, he didn't sign anything. He's being threatened for his parent's decisions. And it's a stupid move, by the school.

Because some press really is just bad press.

Of course he can sign an acknowledgment of their rules indicating he has read them.

No one has said it is a contract that he signed.

[LouC]

Yes. Maybe this is the kind of press they want. I'm curious how the principal found out about it. The student probably talked about it to other students, as he apparently thought the school manual applied to behaviour when in or around the school.

The student came to the Principal to get permission to go.

[KyanWan]

Frost's parents are actually looking to sue the school.
...I love it. You slip and fall. In the old days - you were just a klutz. Now, "HOT DAMN! WE'RE RICH!"

You break the rules. In the old days, "Uh, ok." Now "HOT DAMN! WE'RE RICH!"

Bet - soon as this happened, some weasel in a suit scurried out of the bushes: "Yesssss.... I can make you money ... ssssserious money ... contingency.... you get 20% I get 80 perssssssent. " [the ccccccc looks bad ;) ]

Lawyers and lawmakers. Partners in crime.

[barik]

Unless the boy is a legal adult, he didn't sign anything. He's being threatened for his parent's decisions. And it's a stupid move, by the school.

Because some press really is just bad press.

Not sure what you're trying to say here. My parents dropped me off at school late once and I got detention. How is that my fault? Why didn't the school punish my parents then?

[Talk2Bill]

Unless the boy is a legal adult, he didn't sign anything. He's being threatened for his parent's decisions. And it's a stupid move, by the school.

Because some press really is just bad press.

how does that matter at all? the school can make any rule and punish any student for anything they want with or without a contract or even with or without an acknowledgment of the rules EVEN if for some 'offense' that is not even mentioned in the rules.

[Chuangtzu]

Not sure what you're trying to say here. My parents dropped me off at school late once and I got detention. How is that my fault? Why didn't the school punish my parents then?

I'm not suggesting that parents be punished. I'm pointing out that all these posts about "well, they signed it..." don't actually take into account that the person being threatened with discipline didn't actually sign anything.

He's the passive party.

He, being a minor, had no say.

[Chuangtzu]

how does that matter at all? the school can make any rule and punish any student for anything they want with or without a contract or even with or without an acknowledgment of the rules EVEN if for some 'offense' that is not even mentioned in the rules.

He didn't agree to the rules. His parents did. So, the silly posts about "they agreed to it" are just erroneous. His parents agreed to it, not him.

[Talk2Bill]

He didn't agree to the rules. His parents did. So, the silly posts about "they agreed to it" are just erroneous. His parents agreed to it, not him.

completely prevalent. He has NO say in what the rules are. He has not option to follow or not follow them Nor do his parents.

if they do not like the rules (stated out unstated) if they do not like the consequences (fair or unfair) GO TO ANOTHER SCHOOL!

[barik]

He didn't agree to the rules. His parents did. So, the silly posts about "they agreed to it" are just erroneous. His parents agreed to it, not him.

Sorry, I'm not really buying it. His parents are his guardian. So it doesn't matter if he agreed to it or not. In my house, whatever my parents said (or agreed to) was what I had to do. Sucks for the kid though.

[ddye]

No DANCING? Where's Kevin Bacon when you really need him?

Doug

P.S. I wouldn't have lasted a week in a school like that.

[barik]

No DANCING? Where's Kevin Bacon when you really need him?

Doug

We're all in this together.... ah, wrong movie.

[Chuangtzu]

Sorry, I'm not really buying it. His parents are his guardian. So it doesn't matter if he agreed to it or not. In my house, whatever my parents said (or agreed to) was what I had to do. Sucks for the kid though.

I'm not selling anything. I'm pointing out - again - that the many posts (below) which indicate that he agreed to the rules and should just accept the decision don't actually account for the fact that his parents made his decisions for him.

I'm not stating that the school cannot make it's own rules. I'm trying to clarify that the too sweeping statements neglect that the minor is a passive party.

[Chuangtzu]

completely prevalent. He has NO say in what the rules are. He has not option to follow or not follow them Nor do his parents.

if they do not like the rules (stated out unstated) if they do not like the consequences (fair or unfair) GO TO ANOTHER SCHOOL!

My point, exactly. He has no say. So, all those posts about him agreeing to the rules: wrong.

[Broseph]

Hmm, getting suspended for taking a girl to a prom at another high school. First of all, it's ridiculous that the school gets to declare stuff like this to be a basis for suspension when it's done at another high school. Anyway...

Take her to the prom kid!

Nobody but the administration to your school will care and you'll be glad you did for the rest of your life.

Man I hate the fun police.

[Talk2Bill]

I'm not suggesting that parents be punished. I'm pointing out that all these posts about "well, they signed it..." don't actually take into account that the person being threatened with discipline didn't actually sign anything.

He's the passive party.

He, being a minor, had no say.

none of that matters. the RULES are the RULES. even in public school there are rules and NOT signing an acknowledgment is NEVER a defense. Not for kids in kindergarten or an 18 year old in high school. and in some cases not even for the most profoundly disabled kids. They all have to follow the rule whether they know about them or not whether they understand them or not and certinly whether or not they agree to follow them or not.

as far as it being off campus and off school time... kids at public schools can be punished by the school for certain types of off campus not school time behavior as well.

[Talk2Bill]

Hmm, getting suspended for taking a girl to a prom at another high school.

Take her to the prom kid!

Nobody but the administration to your school will care and you'll be glad you did for the rest of your life.

Man I hate the fun police.

I agree, go to the dance. AND take the punishment like a man. Or with draw and enroll in a public school.

[Cletus Wilbury]

...
if they do not like the rules (stated out unstated) if they do not like the consequences (fair or unfair) GO TO ANOTHER SCHOOL!


Students' Rights (http://privateschool.about.com/cs/students/a/studentsrights.htm) -


It's Not The Same As Public School


If you attended a public school and now find yourself in a private school, you need to be aware that your rights are different. That's because everything pertaining to your stay at private school is governed by something called contract law.
...
How can you find out what your rights are at your private school? Simple! Read your student handbook. You probably had to sign a form indicating that you had read the handbook, understood it and would abide by it. Your parents most likely signed a similar document. Those are contracts. They are the rules which govern your relationship with and rights at your school.

this is also supported by
California school law (http://books.google.com/books?id=cE6zI2N6zW8C&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=contract+law+rights+of+students+in+private+scho ols&source=bl&ots=cxcmf644fA&sig=UU_cPNQgT9LqjEdqieUzz8T6f6M&hl=en&ei=EKQFSvCOLZLMMLSG9aID&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA14,M1)

By Frank R. Kemerer, Peter Andrew Sansom, Jennifer Kemerer

see top of page 14

[Chuangtzu]

none of that matters. the RULES are the RULES. even in public school there are rules and NOT signing an acknowledgment is NEVER a defense. Not for kids in kindergarten or an 18 year old in high school. and in some cases not even for the most profoundly disabled kids. They all have to follow the rule whether they know about them or not whether they understand them or not and certinly whether or not they agree to follow them or not.

as far as it being off campus and off school time... kids at public schools can be punished by the school for certain types of off campus not school time behavior as well.

Thank you for not reading what I wrote. Maybe when you stop reading what you want to read, you'll read my actual argument. Good luck with that.

Hint: I'm not addressing the school's decision. I'm addressing posts made in this thread.

[barik]

I'm not stating that the school cannot make it's own rules. I'm trying to clarify that the too sweeping statements neglect that the minor is a passive party.

Fair enough.

[jprin]

Ah, memories. My wife needed to take a course only offered locally at the brand new City of Faith (hospital) at ORU in the early 80's. One course to meet an accreditation requirement. The only option was taking the course 90 miles away at another facility. As a student (adult), she was required to sign a document stating she would not drink, smoke, or dance. Yes, ORU was voluntary (but not the oath) and she did as required for that one semester. Funny how folks here are obsessed with the US being a 'Christian Nation,' without regard for what that can really mean. Our founders knew.

Oh.....and who was mayor of Tulsa at the time? Why, nutjob Jim Inhofe who supported the University. That hospital was heavily opposed by some politicians and the medical community on ground the community could not support it. Oral quickly turned it into a "people are against JEEEEESUS!" issue, which in Oklahoma is very powerful. The hosptital was built, never achieved anywhere near the minimal patient rate needed to survive, and within 2 years went bust. The only winners on the deal were lawyers and the construction company. That's just one reason I refer to Inhofe as a nutjob.

[Talk2Bill]

Students' Rights (http://privateschool.about.com/cs/students/a/studentsrights.htm) -


It's Not The Same As Public School


this is also supported by
California school law (http://books.google.com/books?id=cE6zI2N6zW8C&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=contract+law+rights+of+students+in+private+scho ols&source=bl&ots=cxcmf644fA&sig=UU_cPNQgT9LqjEdqieUzz8T6f6M&hl=en&ei=EKQFSvCOLZLMMLSG9aID&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA14,M1)

By Frank R. Kemerer, Peter Andrew Sansom, Jennifer Kemerer

see top of page 14

I think Frank is full of Beans!

student codes of conduct forms are not contracts.

if a those are contracts...what is the consideration?

[FidelisAdMortem]

Wow another sue happy family, wonderful.

Learn to read what you sign.

Case closed.

[Talk2Bill]

Thank you for not reading what I wrote. Maybe when you stop reading what you want to read, you'll read my actual argument. Good luck with that.

Hint: I'm not addressing the school's decision. I'm addressing posts made in this thread.

i do not think there was anything in my reply that was in disagreement with what you said. I am pretty sure it was going on about what you posted.

[Talk2Bill]

Wow another sue happy family, wonderful.

Learn to read what you sign.

Case closed.

even if the did not sign anything about the rules a Private school has very wide authority to make up just about any rule they like and punish any student they want for any reason. The only option the parents/students have is to accept it or withdraw.

[chip]

There is one thing I disagree with Christian education. They seem to not acknowledge an outside world. Very much a bunker mentality.



Thats a VERY large brush you are painting with.

[chip]

Unless the boy is a legal adult, he didn't sign anything. He's being threatened for his parent's decisions.

Then according to you EVERY suspension handed out is a kid being punished for his parent decisions.

[jprin]

Wow another sue happy family, wonderful.

Learn to read what you sign.

Case closed.

A little off topic, but I just read about a teenage hiker in Australia who made multiple calls to their 000 (911 here in the States) only to die of dehydration due to their incompetence. His dad is hoping for changes to the system but is not interested in lawsuits. I couldn't help but imagine the army of lawyers here who would be hounding the father.

[Talk2Bill]

but Chuangtzu ...i will say this.

as ignorance of the rules is not a defense who signed of did not sign is not important. the kid is being punished for breaking the rule. he is being punished for breaking the school's rules. so who signed the form is not at all relevant.

[chip]

but Chuangtzu ...i will say this.

as ignorance of the rules is not a defense who signed of did not sign is not important. the kid is being punished for breaking the rule. he is being punished for breaking the school's rules. so who signed the form is not at all relevant.

Correct, its no different than being suspended for breaking the dress code, fighting, smoking or disrupting class.

[Cletus Wilbury]

I think Frank is full of Beans!

student codes of conduct forms are not contracts.

if a those are contracts...what is the consideration?


Codes of Conduct (http://www.privateschoolreview.com/articles/72)



Discipline in private schools generally begins with a code of conduct. This is a document which is read and signed by parents and students at the time of admission to the school. It is part of the contract between student, parents and the school. Since you have already agreed to the school's code of conduct beforehand, when you commit an infraction of the code, you will be disciplined accordingly.

...
The important concept to understand is that as a student in a private school you are governed by contract law, not constitutional law. In other words, you do not have the same rights as a public school student. If you violate the terms of your contract, you will be dealt with accordingly. ...

[Talk2Bill]

Correct, its no different than being suspended for breaking the dress code, fighting, smoking or disrupting class.

i think some posters are thinking that if the parents and students did not sign the rule form that there are no rules for that kid.

it is like a job, if your boss wants you to watch a video on dress code and it says "no blue shoe laces" and you do not watch it and you ware blue shoe laces you can get fired. Saying "i didn't know" and "i never saw the video" is NO excuse you can be fired.

[ddye]

Hmm, getting suspended for taking a girl to a prom at another high school. First of all, it's ridiculous that the school gets to declare stuff like this to be a basis for suspension when it's done at another high school. Anyway...

Take her to the prom kid!

Nobody but the administration to your school will care and you'll be glad you did for the rest of your life.

Man I hate the fun police.
The most famous definition of fundamentalism is H. L. Mencken's: a terrible, pervasive fear that someone, somewhere, is having fun.

Doug

[Talk2Bill]

Codes of Conduct (http://www.privateschoolreview.com/articles/72)

a few things:

1) you do not have the option to agree or not agree to the rules in ANYTHING in life. Are you saying that that IF the parents and student NEVER signed the code of conduct form that the kid could do anything they wanted to do and could not be punished?

2) a contract MUST include an exchange of something for something (some consideration). No contract can be one sided. So what does the parent/student get from the school in exchange for their agreement to the rules?

[Talk2Bill]

The most famous definition of fundamentalism is H. L. Mencken's: a terrible, pervasive fear that someone, somewhere, is having fun.

Doug


yeah, and if you do not want to be subjected to that then attend a public school.

[Cletus Wilbury]

.... Are you saying that that IF the parents and student NEVER signed the code of conduct form that the kid could do anything they wanted to do and could not be punished?


No. I don't know whatever gave you that idea. Go back & read the last sentence in my original post starting this thread.


I was just replying to the part of your post I quoted, which I thought was erroneous. Looks like you concede the point.

[Talk2Bill]

No. I don't know whatever gave you that idea. Go back & read the last sentence in my original post starting this thread.


I was just replying to the part of your post I quoted, which I thought was erroneous. Looks like you concede the point.

codes of conduct are NOT contracts. there is no consideration for the parents.

[Pudge]

Anyone who goes to a school like this:

A fundamentalist Baptist school that forbids dancing, rock music, hand-holding and kissing will be suspended if he takes his girlfriend to her public high school prom, his principal said.

Deserves what they get.

[consusa]

In re #2: the child gets admission to the school, and the education offered there

[jimjames418]

yeah, and if you do not want to be subjected to that then attend a public school.
In the public school district where I worked, we had some pretty strict rules about conduct. We had the "day light" rule, no holding hands, no hugging, have to see day light between the two at all times. Also the dress code, all tops had to have sleeves and no shorts (skin) about the knee. Actually no skin to be shown between the neck and knees.

We actually had more complaints from the staff than from the students. :rolleyes:

[Chuangtzu]

Then according to you EVERY suspension handed out is a kid being punished for his parent decisions.

Nope. Learn to read.

[chip]

Nope. Learn to read.

I can read just fine, thanks.

[TCUFan]

Let me ask something, is this a situation where the kid will not graduate at all or he will graduate but he just can't walk across the stage?

TCUFan

[chip]

Let me ask something, is this a situation where the kid will not graduate at all or he will graduate but he just can't walk across the stage?

TCUFan

" Frost also would not be permitted to attend graduation but would get a diploma once he completes final exams."

[Chuangtzu]

I can read just fine, thanks.

Not if you got that from my statement. I was addressing the silly comments about "well he asked for it," not the school's policies. The school has the authority to set it's own policies, but that doesn't mean the young man personally agreed to every single one of them.

Or should.

[chip]

Not if you got that from my statement. I was addressing the silly comments about "well he asked for it," not the school's policies. The school has the authority to set it's own policies, but that doesn't mean the young man personally agreed to every single one of them.

Or should.

Doesnt matter if he agrees with em or not, he accepted them by attending the school and accepting the handbook that had all the rules in it. Hes perfectly able to disagree all he wants, but he can pay the consequences of his actions.

[WreckedParty]

No DANCING? Where's Kevin Bacon when you really need him?

Doug

P.S. I wouldn't have lasted a week in a school like that.

Id probably only last a day before i would make the whole school *ghasp* :))

[TCUFan]

" Frost also would not be permitted to attend graduation but would get a diploma once he completes final exams."

Take the girl to prom. Have a ball. Be home before two unless you go to a church lock-in or something.

TCUFan

[Darkwind]

This is what happens when you allow the schools to teach morality and family values.

[TCUFan]

This is what happens when you allow the schools to teach morality and family values.

In three years, you won't even know the people you graduated high school with.

You will remember being Prince Charming to Cinderella at her prom until you die.

TCUFan

[Darkwind]

In three years, you won't even know the people you graduated high school with.

You will remember being Prince Charming to Cinderella at her prom until you die.

TCUFanYour point being?

Last time I looked, proms were held off campus and it would not take much to remove the school from the equation completely.

We need to remove the right of schools to teach moral ethics. That is the responsibility of the parents.

[RayMan]

And CW, could you put this sort of thing in the Religion forum?

TCUFan

No thanks. We have enough goofy stuff in there. This belongs in General Interest.

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

He just needs some breast implants and some nudie pics then he will be not only allowed back at his Christian school, but put on stage to speak about his strong convictions.

[jimjames418]

He just needs some breast implants and some nudie pics then he will be not only allowed back at his Christian school, but put on stage to speak about his strong convictions.
That there sounds like some personal experience speaking. :lol:



Don't blame me, you opened the door.

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

That there sounds like some personal experience speaking. :lol:



Don't blame me, you opened the door.

All the boys wanted to take me to prom once I was a double D.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard.

[historynut]

Your point being?

Last time I looked, proms were held off campus and it would not take much to remove the school from the equation completely.

We need to remove the right of schools to teach moral ethics. That is the responsibility of the parents.

Most people that put there kids in private Christian Schools (or other religious schools) do so because there kids will be taught moral ethics. You ask the school to teach your kids ethics and in return the school asks you to follow a code of conduct while you are going to the school.

It seems easy to me, if you do not like the code of conduct go to another school.

As for removing the right of religious schools to teach moral ethics isn’t there something that says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

Most people that put there kids in private Christian Schools (or other religious schools) do so because there kids will be taught moral ethics. You ask the school to teach your kids ethics and in return the school asks you to follow a code of conduct while you are going to the school.

It seems easy to me, if you do not like the code of conduct go to another school.

As for removing the right of religious schools to teach moral ethics isn’t there something that says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

I consider it to be further evidence of the degradation of Christian values by Christians themselves.

[notluzn]

No DANCING? Where's Kevin Bacon when you really need him?

Doug

P.S. I wouldn't have lasted a week in a school like that.
I would have been arrested for fighting. :)

[Talk2Bill]

Your point being?

Last time I looked, proms were held off campus and it would not take much to remove the school from the equation completely.

We need to remove the right of schools to teach moral ethics. That is the responsibility of the parents.

even from PRIVATE schools? So are you against private schools all together?

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

I would have been arrested for fighting. :)

Fighting and violence is very common in schools like that.

[NascarGirl2448]

Anyone who goes to a school like this:



Deserves what they get.

I was stuck in just such a hellhole when I was in middle school. These people were so far to the right that they made Jerry Falwell look moderate.

Anyway I remember bringing a picture of me showing my horse at a recent show to school to show a guy on the soccer team who I liked. Anyway a teacher saw the picture in my notebook (at lunchtime) and had a hissy fit about how I was wearing pants and women were not supposed to wear pants at any time. What was I supposed to do, get saddle burn? No thanks!

I'm glad they never found out about my dancing at our barn Christmas party every year, because that was another thing these radicals were against. And yes, that oh so evil rock music was played at the party!!!

Personally I wouldn't blame this kid if he went to the dance anyway, and kept his mouth shut on Monday. What those radical nutjobs don't know won't hurt him.

[uncledoom]

As silly as the rules are, he's been going there since Kindergarden. He knew about this 2 years ago. And since I'm certain he isn't the only student who is facing this issue, how are the other folks getting around this?

[DRS]

Who sets the standards for education, the state or the school?

[historynut]

Who sets the standards for education, the state or the school?

The standards for education - math, science, English etc are set by the State.

The standards for religion (it is a religious school) are set by the Church.

If you don’t like the standards of that religion put your kids in a different religious school (I have heard that Catholic schools let kids dance).

[Dual867PowerMac]

This is why I do not care for most Protestant-run schools. I saw a documentary from Britain and a science class at a private Baptist school was teaching a lesson and suddenly Noah's Ark was introduced into the lesson.

I don't know much about Catholic schools, but from what I've read, it seems they know the proper time and place for religion in the cirriculum. A science lesson is no place to talk about Noah's Ark, which, for the record, I do not accept as historic fact.

But that's a different subject for a different place.

[Talk2Bill]

Who sets the standards for education, the state or the school?

I assume it differs from state to state. Some states are more heavy handed and intrusive than others.

I think the government should say out of private schools.

[Gabby]

This is why I do not care for most Protestant-run schools. I saw a documentary from Britain and a science class at a private Baptist school was teaching a lesson and suddenly Noah's Ark was introduced into the lesson.

I don't know much about Catholic schools, but from what I've read, it seems they know the proper time and place for religion in the cirriculum. A science lesson is no place to talk about Noah's Ark, which, for the record, I do not accept as historic fact.

But that's a different subject for a different place.

One of my sons went to Catholic school up to the 6th grade. When he switched to public school... it turned out that the public school was a couple of years behind... this included science and math classes.

I have severa nieces and nephews who attended Catholic school.. they all have a much better education than the public schools gave... again it was better even in the areas of math and science.

Catholics have no problem at all with evolution adn science. The Bible is not a book of science. It's a book of faith. If observable science contradicts our interpretation of the Bible, than obviously our interpretation of the Bible is wrong.

[Gabby]

This reminds me of a Baptist wedding that my father atteded years ago in Georgia. The men had all snuck out of the part to have a few drinks from the bottle hidden under the back poarch.

They asked my father what the difference was between a Catholic wedding and a Baptist wedding. My father's response was that at a Catholic wedding we don't hide the booze under the back porch.

[DRS]

The standards for education - math, science, English etc are set by the State.

The standards for religion (it is a religious school) are set by the Church.

If you don’t like the standards of that religion put your kids in a different religious school (I have heard that Catholic schools let kids dance).

So the diploma is from the state and they can not with hold it from the young man

[Apatriot]

a few things:

1) you do not have the option to agree or not agree to the rules in ANYTHING in life. Are you saying that that IF the parents and student NEVER signed the code of conduct form that the kid could do anything they wanted to do and could not be punished?

2) a contract MUST include an exchange of something for something (some consideration). No contract can be one sided. So what does the parent/student get from the school in exchange for their agreement to the rules?

2) The parent gets to pay to send the student to school.

[Apatriot]

Your point being?

Last time I looked, proms were held off campus and it would not take much to remove the school from the equation completely.

We need to remove the right of schools to teach moral ethics. That is the responsibility of the parents.


This case involves a private school. The parents chose to give this school the right to teach moral ethics. They chose to abdicate some of that responsibility.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

So the diploma is from the state and they can not with hold it from the young man

A diploma for a public school comes from the state.

Private schools are not bound to the same educational standards as public schools (in most cases, they're actually higher standards, but in some they're just different), so the state really has no say in what a private school does in terms of handing out its diplomas.

Nor should it.

[Apatriot]

Who sets the standards for education, the state or the school?


Most religious private schools set most of their standards. The state usually just has a few standards that they set for private schools--usually related to attendance.

[jimjames418]

A student at a fundamentalist Baptist school that forbids dancing, rock music, hand-holding and kissing will be suspended if he takes his girlfriend to her public high school prom, his principal said.
....
Back in the 1940's when I was in public high school, the last two hours of school on Friday was "Social Time", where we were required to dance and interact with the other sex. The girls were allowed to ask the guys to dance, and the guys were "required" to dance with those who asked.

Most of the guys hated it. :think:

[DRS]

A diploma for a public school comes from the state.

Private schools are not bound to the same educational standards as public schools (in most cases, they're actually higher standards, but in some they're just different), so the state really has no say in what a private school does in terms of handing out its diplomas.

Nor should it.

So the state does not set minimum standards one needs to get their diploma?

Who certifies the school to teach?

[Apatriot]

So the state does not set minimum standards one needs to get their diploma?

Not for private schools.

Who certifies the school to teach?

Third party Accredidation associations. However, not all private schools are acredited.

An example of an accredidation association is:
http://www.sacs.org/
The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

The news story I heard that isn't being discussed here is this: The young man in question went to his Private School Principal, asked verbal and written permission from his Principal to attend this young woman's Public School Prom...he then retained and had the permission both verbally and written from his Principal to attend said function...

The student was informed days after the verbal and written permission had been retracted by the 'board' of his Private School due to the possibility that Rock n' roll may be played at said Public School Prom.

So here's the deal: Said Principal gave permission both verbally and written for this student to attend a Public School function. End of story. What value is
this school teaching to retract a written and verbal contract that one of their employee's...ie the Principal of the school...gave..and taking it away only after the issue was discussed by it's governing board? Does not the situation apply on both sides of the street?

If the family sues for the child's right to attend his own graduation...I would support them whole heartily. Not only did this student act in accordance with the regulations and rules set forth in the Private school handbook..but also went the extra mile in getting verbal and written permission by the Private entity he is bound too. He could have easily forged paperwork to go to this girls prom without this school ever knowing about it first hand. He was upright and forthcoming in what his intentions were. And what has this earned him? A threat from said Private School that is supposedly trying to teach ethics, morals, honesty and uprightness.

What lesson did this Principal and School Board teach this kid? Don't tell the truth...hide your true intentions, and lie lie lie to get what you want. Nice lessons huh? :naughty:

~Mysty

[DRS]

Not for private schools.



Third party Accredidation associations. However, not all private schools are acredited.

An example of an accredidation association is:
http://www.sacs.org/
The Southern Association of Colleges and Schools.

Actaully it seems they had to meet state requirments for most things

The school is licensed and chartered by the Ohio Department of Education but is not a charter school, Foreman said.

State certified teachers will be hired based upon enrollment, Foreman said.
...
The academy has a board in place, which includes Foreman, Dave Cornwell, Burr Pelton and Roger Davis.
...
Foreman noted the board has been careful to adhere to all state-mandated policies.The certification process, which normally takes up to a year, was completed in just four months, he said.

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Foreman_Kevin_515188124.aspx

[bogey219]

Is that the same high school mr. Hannity went to?

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Is that the same high school mr. Hannity went to?

Hannity went to a Catholic school, so no.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

So the state does not set minimum standards one needs to get their diploma?

Ditto Apatriot's response

Who certifies the school to teach?

I guess it depends on the association they belong to, if any. For example...if a person wants to teach in the Diocese of Wilmington, DE...they'd have to be certified by whatever organization the Diocese wants to use.

[Apatriot]

Actaully it seems they had to meet state requirments for most things

The school is licensed and chartered by the Ohio Department of Education but is not a charter school, Foreman said.

State certified teachers will be hired based upon enrollment, Foreman said.
...
The academy has a board in place, which includes Foreman, Dave Cornwell, Burr Pelton and Roger Davis.
...
Foreman noted the board has been careful to adhere to all state-mandated policies.The certification process, which normally takes up to a year, was completed in just four months, he said.

http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Foreman_Kevin_515188124.aspx

The link above is not to the school teh boy went to. The above is a link about Faith Academy, which is a competitor with Heritage Christian School that the boy went to.

This is a link to the boy's school: http://www.heritagefindlay.org/

It is accredited by American Association of Christian Schools (AACS).

[terri910]

What a difference a few decades can make....it occurs to me that public high school when I was a senior, was more like private schools are today.

The one and only time I was ever called into the Principal's office in high school was when I had submitted a guest pass request for my date to one of the school dances (if your date was not a student at the school, you had to submit a request for them to be allowed to attend -- do they still do that?). He had been a student there three years earlier, and been allowed to attend the dance previous to the upcoming one, so I had no idea what I was called to the Principal's office FOR. I was extremely nervous, never even having hinted at being in trouble in my almost 4 years of high school. Turns out, my request for a guest pass was being denied because my boyfriend's hair was too long -- it curled over his collar (*gasp!*). I was absolutely flabbergasted. But I didn't argue with the Principal, just told him I wouldn't be asking my boyfriend to cut his hair so I wouldn't be going to the dance. We understood one another and it was fine.

Today, someone would be suing, I suppose.

[DRS]

The link above is not to the school teh boy went to. The above is a link about Faith Academy, which is a competitor with Heritage Christian School that the boy went to.

This is a link to the boy's school: http://www.heritagefindlay.org/

It is accredited by American Association of Christian Schools (AACS).

It does not mean the diploma will be honoured by all post secondary places of education or even all employers

[Talk2Bill]

2) The parent gets to pay to send the student to school.

that is a separate contract. and even if it is not the student is not paying so it would still not be a contract between the student and the school.

[Talk2Bill]

The news story I heard that isn't being discussed here is this: The young man in question went to his Private School Principal, asked verbal and written permission from his Principal to attend this young woman's Public School Prom...he then retained and had the permission both verbally and written from his Principal to attend said function...

The student was informed days after the verbal and written permission had been retracted by the 'board' of his Private School due to the possibility that Rock n' roll may be played at said Public School Prom.

if said permission was granted then it was retracted. In many schools the principal is not the final authority.

So here's the deal: Said Principal gave permission both verbally and written for this student to attend a Public School function. End of story.

apparently the board has the authority to over rule the principal.

What value is
this school teaching to retract a written and verbal contract that one of their employee's...ie the Principal of the school...gave..and taking it away only after the issue was discussed by it's governing board?

it was not a contract it was permission, the principal's permission was overruled. (think of the court system, one judge rules one way and another higher level judge overturns the ruling.) I can get permission from by boss to do something, but if my bosses boss says 'no' and I do anyway...will i still have a job?

Does not the situation apply on both sides of the street?

If the family sues for the child's right to attend his own graduation...I would support them whole heartily. Not only did this student act in accordance with the regulations and rules set forth in the Private school handbook..but also went the extra mile in getting verbal and written permission by the Private entity he is bound too. He could have easily forged paperwork to go to this girls prom without this school ever knowing about it first hand. He was upright and forthcoming in what his intentions were. And what has this earned him? A threat from said Private School that is supposedly trying to teach ethics, morals, honesty and uprightness.

i agree the school board is being dumb but that is what you get when you go to a private school.

and the kid has NO right to attend a graduation ceremony.

What lesson did this Principal and School Board teach this kid? Don't tell the truth...hide your true intentions, and lie lie lie to get what you want. Nice lessons huh? :naughty:

~Mysty

[historynut]

if said permission was granted then it was retracted. In many schools the principal is not the final authority.

apparently the board has the authority to over rule the principal.

it was not a contract it was permission, the principal's permission was overruled. (think of the court system, one judge rules one way and another higher level judge overturns the ruling.) I can get permission from by boss to do something, but if my bosses boss says 'no' and I do anyway...will i still have a job?

i agree the school board is being dumb but that is what you get when you go to a private school.

and the kid has NO right to attend a graduation ceremony.

What lesson did this Principal and School Board teach this kid? Don't tell the truth...hide your true intentions, and lie lie lie to get what you want. Nice lessons huh? :naughty:

~Mysty

More like I can break my word when I feel like it. Year after year he say he would follow the rules, he could have left at any time.
The school did not force him to be a attend. He went to the school asking to go there, the school say ok but here are the rules.
It's like getting a job where you have to wear a suit. You don't like wearing suits get a different job.

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

if said permission was granted then it was retracted. In many schools the principal is not the final authority.



apparently the board has the authority to over rule the principal.



it was not a contract it was permission, the principal's permission was overruled. (think of the court system, one judge rules one way and another higher level judge overturns the ruling.) I can get permission from by boss to do something, but if my bosses boss says 'no' and I do anyway...will i still have a job?



i agree the school board is being dumb but that is what you get when you go to a private school.

and the kid has NO right to attend a graduation ceremony.


I understand your opinion on this specific topic...yet you turned to corporate law in order to explain it. Unfortunately, when your dealing with minors and a private education system, those laws don't apply nor do they hold stance within the topic itself.

To go one step further, I'd say in order to make a clear choice about what a private school boards actions towards a student,.. would have to come from a seat above that board...and be one of their own community...a final stop if you will that oversees the entire school community. I highly doubt any such person exists in this circumstance....it's a little podunk school in the middle of no where that no one had heard of until now.

As far as this young man's graduation...The school first would have to prove this young man did indeed listen to Rock N. Roll music...or held hands...or any of the other million obscure rules he's been following for the past 13 years. Then...and only then could they back up their assertions for keeping him from graduation. In order to get that type of dirt on the kid....that would mean that one of the board or the Principal himself would have to sneak around the bushes to try and get the goods on the kid. Call me nuts...but I dont' see that happening.

13 years Paid...PAID... tuition...and they pull this two months before graduation? Tell me there's not a lawyer out there who will gladly step forward and eat that school alive if asked! :naughty:

~Mysty

[Groundhog]

Seems like a pretty liberal school. They could of been like the Catholic church centuries ago and banned all music except Gregorian chants.


Playing an Elvis record gets you banned from this school in 2009?? :think:

[mysticbeauty_nbeast]

Seems like a pretty liberal school. They could of been like the Catholic church centuries ago and banned all music except Gregorian chants.


Playing an Elvis record gets you banned from this school in 2009?? :think:

LOL....Gregorian chants can be beautiful..but hard to dance too....heheheheheheh. I attended an all girl Catholic High School..and we had dances...even had that evil Rock n. Roll...and yet, somehow we all turned out good women. Hmmmm...wonder if there is a connection there? lol

This Private School...they have control over their students academic lives while in attendance. That doesn't mean that these kids aren't listening to evil Rock n. Roll on their own time. How would this school legislate their rules during a child's private home life? Answer is they can't. Same would go for extracurricular activities. There is no way for them to excersise their will or rules on these kids 24/7, 365 days a year.

On campus..during school...their own curriculum...student activities that are supported by the school..then yes, they can excersise their rules on the student body. Beyond that, their reach is impotent.

Unless the schools handbook (read rule book/contract) states that the child is to follow the rules of the school at all times, even in summer recess and holidays and after school...they have no stance in holding this young man from his graduations for a off school campus dance.

~Mysty

*Add: I have heard..yet am unable to verify the source as yet...that the Principal not only gave his permission for this young man to attend this dance...but was completely aware of what and where the young man was intended to participate in. It was 'a' board member who become concerned days after the fact that began asking questions in relation too 'what' could happen if more students where given permission to attend such functions. That is where the fire started. For any of you who have served in PTA...you will recognize this type of voice on a board who does more damage then good with their nit picking. ;)

~M.

[Darkwind]

This case involves a private school. The parents chose to give this school the right to teach moral ethics. They chose to abdicate some of that responsibility.
Then they have nothing to complain about. Poor parents if they are willing to abdicate their responsibilities to their own children.

[Thor]

How can the school dictate what you do ON YOUR OWN TIME and WHEN YOU ARE OFF SCHOOL PROPERTY?!?!? And how do they know what you are doing anyway? Do they have spies reporting back to the principal?

This is beyond absurd. The school should concern itself with student behavior when they are IN SCHOOL!

[Apatriot]

It does not mean the diploma will be honoured by all post secondary places of education or even all employers


Please show evidence that the AACS is not honored by any post secondary school. I can't find any. From what I can tell, it's fairly well respected.

[Apatriot]

How can the school dictate what you do ON YOUR OWN TIME and WHEN YOU ARE OFF SCHOOL PROPERTY?!?!? And how do they know what you are doing anyway? Do they have spies reporting back to the principal?

This is beyond absurd. The school should concern itself with student behavior when they are IN SCHOOL!


It's a private school. In terms of how did they know? Well, the boy asked permission, and it was denied. After that, I'm sure they are watching him. A prom is a public event, and the town this school is in has a population of about 40,000. Not hard to figure out what anybody is doing in a small town.

[Thor]

It's a private school. In terms of how did they know? Well, the boy asked permission, and it was denied. After that, I'm sure they are watching him. A prom is a public event, and the town this school is in has a population of about 40,000. Not hard to figure out what anybody is doing in a small town.

It still doesn't address the issue as to what business a school has in dictating your behavior when you are on your own time and off school property.

[Apatriot]

It still doesn't address the issue as to what business a school has in dictating your behavior when you are on your own time and off school property.

The boy signed a contract agreeing to these behavioral standards that include what you do at home.

[DRS]

Please show evidence that the AACS is not honored by any post secondary school. I can't find any. From what I can tell, it's fairly well respected.

This is from the Ohio state website on education

Accepting credits from a non-chartered, non-tax supported school is a local district decision. The decision to accept a high school diploma from a non-chartered, non-tax supported school lies solely with a college/university or employer

[DRS]

Frost said he thought he had handled the situation properly. Findlay requires students from other schools attending the prom to get a signature from their principal, which Frost did.

"I expected a short lecture about making the right decisions and not doing something stupid," Frost said. "I thought I would get his signature and that would be the end."

England acknowledged signing the form but warned Frost there would be consequences if he attended the dance.
If this part of the article is true then Jesus's teaching on letting your yes mean yes and no mean no

The principal said yes

[historynut]

It still doesn't address the issue as to what business a school has in dictating your behavior when you are on your own time and off school property.

They asked the school to teach the kid morals and agreed to follow the school rules. This is a religous school with rules that the parents have know about for years.
This is not only something that schools do, a number of companies when they hire you have you agree not to do things that will make the company look bad.

[Talk2Bill]

How can the school dictate what you do ON YOUR OWN TIME and WHEN YOU ARE OFF SCHOOL PROPERTY?!?!?

they can when you agree that they can when you enroll.

And how do they know what you are doing anyway?
Do they have spies reporting back to the principal?

yup, at least there were at my school

This is beyond absurd. The school should concern itself with student behavior when they are IN SCHOOL!

private schools have that right. and i support it 100% if you do not agree then do not go or send your kids to that school.

[Talk2Bill]

Frost said he thought he had handled the situation properly. Findlay requires students from other schools attending the prom to get a signature from their principal, which Frost did.

"I expected a short lecture about making the right decisions and not doing something stupid," Frost said. "I thought I would get his signature and that would be the end."

England acknowledged signing the form but warned Frost there would be consequences if he attended the dance.
If this part of the article is true then Jesus's teaching on letting your yes mean yes and no mean no

The principal said yes

except the principal lacked that authority and thus violated that scripture.