A Biblical case against socialism.

[Gidon]

From Ecclesiastes Chapter 3
יג וְגַם כָּל-הָאָדָם שֶׁיֹּאכַל וְשָׁתָה, וְרָאָה טוֹב בְּכָל-עֲמָלוֹ--מַתַּת אֱלֹהִים, הִיא. 13 But also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy pleasure for all his labour, is the gift of God.

It says to me that the Lord has given us the right to enjoy the pleasure for our labor and that the one who earns it has the God given right to determine how it is enjoyed. So much for wealth re-distribution.

From Exodus 20
יג לֹא תַחְמֹד, בֵּית רֵעֶךָ; {ס} לֹא-תַחְמֹד אֵשֶׁת רֵעֶךָ, וְעַבְדּוֹ וַאֲמָתוֹ וְשׁוֹרוֹ וַחֲמֹרוֹ, וְכֹל, אֲשֶׁר לְרֵעֶךָ. {פ} 13 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; {S} thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The Socialist is motivated by coveting. They want what they cannot have or are not willing to work for it. They look at something that isn't theirs and they want it. So even it they cannot attain it they do not want anyone else to have it either. This is a truly evil thought process

From Micah Chapter 2

א הוֹי חֹשְׁבֵי-אָוֶן וּפֹעֲלֵי רָע, עַל-מִשְׁכְּבוֹתָם; בְּאוֹר הַבֹּקֶר יַעֲשׂוּהָ, כִּי יֶשׁ-לְאֵל יָדָם. 1 Woe to them that devise iniquity and work evil upon their beds! When the morning is light, they execute it, because it is in the power of their hand.
ב וְחָמְדוּ שָׂדוֹת וְגָזָלוּ, וּבָתִּים וְנָשָׂאוּ; וְעָשְׁקוּ גֶּבֶר וּבֵיתוֹ, וְאִישׁ וְנַחֲלָתוֹ. {פ} 2 And they covet fields, and seize them; and houses, and take them away; thus they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.

Wow, that is powerful. This type of behavior does not please God. Tell me that doesn't describe many in our government. Look at the last part of vs 2. That spells death tax to me.

We are supposed to take care of the poor and afflicted; however God gives us the right to determine how and when and where we as individuals do it. That pretty much rules out socialism.

[DRS]

So how about the law where you could not harvest your entire crop leaving some behind for the poor?

Or what about God's law giving land to every family?

What about the levites being cared for also?

I would say that the greed of the free market and advertising along with the idea of keeping up with the Jonses reeks more of coveting then sharing the wealth

[meggers49]

There is a difference between charity and usurping.

While 1/7th of the field was left for the poor, the poor had to go and get it themselves. The government didn't take it from the farmer and give it to someone who didn't earn it.

We are admonished "by the sweat of your brow shall you eat", not by the sweat of someone else's brow.

In the New Testament, the apostles and their following had a collective, and shared among themselves. That was their decision to do that, no one forced that on them. It is an act of charity and benevolence to share what you have, it is an act of tyranny to force someone to give something to someone else on pain of governmental action.

[Gidon]

So how about the law where you could not harvest your entire crop leaving some behind for the poor?

Or what about God's law giving land to every family?

What about the levites being cared for also?

I would say that the greed of the free market and advertising along with the idea of keeping up with the Jonses reeks more of coveting then sharing the wealth


You are missing the context of my argument and that is my fault. I neglected to stress that a man should enjoy the fruits of his labor after he has followed God's commandment obligations and given to God what belongs to God.

No earthly entity such as government or any meddling jealous busy body acting outside of the Lord has the right to force from the individual anything that rightfully belongs to said individual in the name of said outside entity's definition of social justice.

[DRS]

35*“‘And in case your brother grows poor and so he is financially weak alongside you, you must also sustain him. As an alien resident and a settler, he must keep alive with you. 36*Do not take interest and usury from him, but you must be in fear of your God; and your brother must keep alive with you. 37*You must not give him your money on interest, and you must not give your food out on usury.

You also had to forgive debts every 7 and 50 years

Now since God lets the government stand then those who complain are complaining about God's arrangement

[DRS]

7*“In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. 8*For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of. 9*Watch out for yourself for fear a base word should come to be in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of the release, has come close,’ and your eye should indeed become ungenerous toward your poor brother, and you should give him nothing, and he has to call out to Jehovah against you, and it has become a sin on your part. 10*You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. 11*For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, ‘You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land.’

[adroit]

35*“‘And in case your brother grows poor and so he is financially weak alongside you, you must also sustain him. As an alien resident and a settler, he must keep alive with you. 36*Do not take interest and usury from him, but you must be in fear of your God; and your brother must keep alive with you. 37*You must not give him your money on interest, and you must not give your food out on usury.

You also had to forgive debts every 7 and 50 years

Now since God lets the government stand then those who complain are complaining about God's arrangement

What if my two brothers are doing quite well?

[Koushi Shinigami]

Seems to me that "Sell everything you have and give the money to the destitute, " make a biblical case FOR socialism.

[Jagergeist]

Based on my understanding of Christ's teachings, I'm sure he would not like our current economic and social caste system. We rush past homeless people, sit in our heated houses to gripe about the poor online and generally tithe the minimum amount. I would argue the Bible not only supports socialism but is a direct warning to people who are unaware or intentionally dismiss the plight of the poor and needy.

[MookyBlalock]

There is a difference between charity and usurping.

While 1/7th of the field was left for the poor, the poor had to go and get it themselves. The government didn't take it from the farmer and give it to someone who didn't earn it.

We are admonished "by the sweat of your brow shall you eat", not by the sweat of someone else's brow.

In the New Testament, the apostles and their following had a collective, and shared among themselves. That was their decision to do that, no one forced that on them. It is an act of charity and benevolence to share what you have, it is an act of tyranny to force someone to give something to someone else on pain of governmental action.
I don't understand what this has to do with anything. I mean nobody brings up Homer's Odessey or Jack and the Bean Stalk as some sort of guide to establish Government policy. The bible, quran, and torah all have some insane anti-scientific policies yet we choose to omit those because we know in our hearts that they are wrong, i.e. slavery, subjecation of women, corporal punishment without fair trial, & the capital enforcement of the Ten Commandments. There is a reason people believed in demons and ghosts in those ancient texts... they were even dumber than we are today, they thought the earth was flat.

[DRS]

What if my two brothers are doing quite well?

The brother of the Jews were all other Jews

[Koushi Shinigami]

Too bad many Christians don't share that same view.

[gastoys1]

Please stop with the Biblical, Religious, God examples to how the Government should be ran as you are up against liberals who's only God is Obama. Liberals hate all people who believe in any type of religion and anything you say to try an dconvince them using religion will only make you look foolish and give liberals more wood for their hateful fire. STOP!!!

There is a reason behind the 1st Amendment. I am a devoted Catholic, but my religion is my personal pleasure/experience/morals/beliefs and I would never push them on to anyone. Please stop with all the religion talk, no one wants to hear it in regards to our Constitution/Government especially the liberals.

Thank you,
Gastoys

[mdk190]

The biblical case against socialism? :)) Too funny. Have you ever been to a convent or a monastery of some kind? It is the very epitome of socialism in function.

[adroit]

Please stop with the Biblical, Religious, God examples to how the Government should be ran as you are up against liberals who's only God is Obama. Liberals hate all people who believe in any type of religion and anything you say to try an dconvince them using religion will only make you look foolish and give liberals more wood for their hateful fire. STOP!!!

There is a reason behind the 1st Amendment. I am a devoted Catholic, but my religion is my personal pleasure/experience/morals/beliefs and I would never push them on to anyone. Please stop with all the religion talk, no one wants to hear it in regards to our Constitution/Government especially the liberals.

Thank you,
Gastoys

I'm surprised you can lift your arm since the brush you're holding is so large.

[Texas Patriot]

The present administration is not even left. They are much further than that. They are all about power and control. Just as the ass, their symbol and the one the messiah rode in on, they have no sense of heritage or hope for posterity. Only bad tidings are in store. These are Americans doing unamerican things. How much Koolaid can people drink before they begin choking on it?

[mdk190]

The present administration is not even left. They are much further than that. They are all about power and control. Just as the ass, their symbol and the one the messiah rode in on, they have no sense of heritage or hope for posterity. Only bad tidings are in store. These are Americans doing unamerican things. How much Koolaid can people drink before they begin choking on it?

You tell us, it seems your swimming in it.

[MookyBlalock]

Please stop with the Biblical, Religious, God examples to how the Government should be ran as you are up against liberals who's only God is Obama. Liberals hate all people who believe in any type of religion and anything you say to try an dconvince them using religion will only make you look foolish and give liberals more wood for their hateful fire. STOP!!!

There is a reason behind the 1st Amendment. I am a devoted Catholic, but my religion is my personal pleasure/experience/morals/beliefs and I would never push them on to anyone. Please stop with all the religion talk, no one wants to hear it in regards to our Constitution/Government especially the liberals.

Thank you,
Gastoys
I don't understand where this Obama is thh Messiah b.s. came from, but it's very childish. It's like in grade school when a kid likes the teacher and another kid goes" why dont you just MARRY her then!!" that is EXACTLY how it looks and I think that is a big part of why they lost. Are you going to tell me you guys weren't all gushy over candidates you've elected (Palin)? Why would any presidential candidate get elected if he wasn't immensly popular? Nobody worships Obama, people just really like him, that's the way the world works. It wasn't like he 'seized' power in a hitler-like fashion, he was elected, you get elected by getting people to like you. So many of my friends were extremely gay for George W. Bush in the same way.

[Texas Patriot]

Oh I'm swimming in it. It is being forced down my throat. How bout you, forced, or do you hve a big straw?

[mdk190]

Oh I'm swimming in it. It is being forced down my throat. How bout you, forced, or do you hve a big straw?

I am sorry, does this make amends: Democrats are evil and eat children. Better now?

[Texas Patriot]

Pathetic! Definitley a large water hose.

[MookyBlalock]

I am sorry, does this make amends: Democrats are evil and eat children. Better now?
It depends on what kind of baby it was, muslim?

[CMike11]

Does it say that you should give most of your money to the government and the government will use it how the fit.

It makes provisions for the poor, and it states specifically how money is to be used, but the govenment doesn't decide for you how to administer it.

[mdk190]

Pathetic! Definitley a large water hose.

States the person that believes Democrats want to destroy America. :rolleyes: Stop being a partisan stooge.

[adroit]

Can you people take the strictly political talk (bashing) to the WP forum, please?

[mdk190]

Can you people take the strictly political talk (bashing) to the WP forum, please?

How is that possible when the OP blended religion and politics?

[adroit]

How is that possible when the OP blended religion and politics?

If you're relating it to religious teachings and are on topic, that's fine. But the bickering back and forth between left/right/independent, etc, is just ridiculous in this forum and not on topic with this post.

[Texas Patriot]

I see what I see making my own choice(s) based on clear vision and history. This is not the American way. This country does not need to be "remade" as was stated in the manner in which the administration is pursuing. Obama is a manager of tasks not a leader. A manager tries to do things right even if misguided. A leader does the right thing. He is definitely not a leader!

[Texas Patriot]

My apologies Adroit

[2Parties1GlobalistGoal]

Seems to me that "Sell everything you have and give the money to the destitute, " make a biblical case FOR socialism.

When has "selling" or "giving" ever been a part of socialism?

[DRS]

The bible says to respect the authority that God lets stand

The bible also says to pay the tax

Now what the government does with that tax is something they will answer for, there are many things the government uses money for that I would not practice but that is not my problem, my duty is to worship God

[MookyBlalock]

The bible says to respect the authority that God lets stand

The bible also says to pay the tax

Now what the government does with that tax is something they will answer for, there are many things the government uses money for that I would not practice but that is not my problem, my duty is to worship God
I guess I agree, but Leviticus also told me I can stone my wife to death if she commits adultery, as long as the whole village can witness the stoning, why don't we make that a law? BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE CRAZY! And that is why we have seperation of Church and State

[adroit]

The bible says to respect the authority that God lets stand

The bible also says to pay the tax

Now what the government does with that tax is something they will answer for, there are many things the government uses money for that I would not practice but that is not my problem, my duty is to worship God

Good post.

On the other hand, to use the Bible to push a certain political agenda is another story.

[optrader]

The Bible makes it clear that we are to work to eat. This principle began in Eden after Adam and Eve sinned. The fact is there are many people who do not understand this principle and believe they are entitled. It is abundantly clear that those who are lazy, idle, slothful etc., will not be in the kingdom. If eternal life is the free gift of Christ, and such people do not receive it, are we to be more giving of what we earn to such people than our saviour? I believe in charity, helping those who CAN'T help themselves. Charity is me, personally giving of my money, time etc., to the needy. Confiscation of what I earn and redistribution by the government is NOT charity and is not advocated nor required anywhere in scripture.

Evidently, there is a great misunderstanding of what socialism is. From the Mirriam Webster online dictionary;

Socialism:1837
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Selling all we have and giving to the poor does not fall under any of these definitions, nor do charity or paying taxes. Socialism reduces people down to the lowest common denominator, it kills motivation, creativity and industry because people have no hope of reaping the rewards of there labors. Socialism produces a stagnant society. Has observing socialism in the former Soviet Union, China, etc. taught us nothing? Evidently not judging by the number of people who voted for Obama. If what socialism has visibly produced is what people believe are Biblical principles endorsed by God, no wonder we're in such a mess...

[DRS]

Hate to tell you this but for the Christian it does not matter

Colossian 3:22-25

[CMike11]

The bible says to respect the authority that God lets stand

The bible also says to pay the tax

Now what the government does with that tax is something they will answer for, there are many things the government uses money for that I would not practice but that is not my problem, my duty is to worship God

No one here has advocated anarchy.

You are supposed to follow the laws of the government.

However, the government shouldn't be taken so much of people's money and doing what they want with it.

We make up the government too.

[Gidon]

Seems to me that "Sell everything you have and give the money to the destitute, " make a biblical case FOR socialism.

Wrong. Read the whole thing not just a snippet. He is talking to the young rich man.
Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?


Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luk 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

Jesus knew the guy loved his things more than any thing else. He gave him the choice and the guy made his choice. The point is he had the choice Jesus didn't force him to do anything.

[Gidon]

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. I mean nobody brings up Homer's Odessey or Jack and the Bean Stalk as some sort of guide to establish Government policy. The bible, quran, and torah all have some insane anti-scientific policies yet we choose to omit those because we know in our hearts that they are wrong, i.e. slavery, subjecation of women, corporal punishment without fair trial, & the capital enforcement of the Ten Commandments. There is a reason people believed in demons and ghosts in those ancient texts... they were even dumber than we are today, they thought the earth was flat.

sorry to offend with our lack of enlightenment, but unfortunately for you this thread is directed to believers and your 'highly evolved scientific thought' does not apply here

[Gem]

From Ecclesiastes Chapter 3
יג וְגַם כָּל-הָאָדָם שֶׁיֹּאכַל וְשָׁתָה, וְרָאָה טוֹב בְּכָל-עֲמָלוֹ--מַתַּת אֱלֹהִים, הִיא. 13 But also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy pleasure for all his labour, is the gift of God.

It says to me that the Lord has given us the right to enjoy the pleasure for our labor and that the one who earns it has the God given right to determine how it is enjoyed. So much for wealth re-distribution.

From Exodus 20
יג לֹא תַחְמֹד, בֵּית רֵעֶךָ; {ס} לֹא-תַחְמֹד אֵשֶׁת רֵעֶךָ, וְעַבְדּוֹ וַאֲמָתוֹ וְשׁוֹרוֹ וַחֲמֹרוֹ, וְכֹל, אֲשֶׁר לְרֵעֶךָ. {פ} 13 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; {S} thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The Socialist is motivated by coveting. They want what they cannot have or are not willing to work for it. They look at something that isn't theirs and they want it. So even it they cannot attain it they do not want anyone else to have it either. This is a truly evil thought process

From Micah Chapter 2

א הוֹי חֹשְׁבֵי-אָוֶן וּפֹעֲלֵי רָע, עַל-מִשְׁכְּבוֹתָם; בְּאוֹר הַבֹּקֶר יַעֲשׂוּהָ, כִּי יֶשׁ-לְאֵל יָדָם. 1 Woe to them that devise iniquity and work evil upon their beds! When the morning is light, they execute it, because it is in the power of their hand.
ב וְחָמְדוּ שָׂדוֹת וְגָזָלוּ, וּבָתִּים וְנָשָׂאוּ; וְעָשְׁקוּ גֶּבֶר וּבֵיתוֹ, וְאִישׁ וְנַחֲלָתוֹ. {פ} 2 And they covet fields, and seize them; and houses, and take them away; thus they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.

Wow, that is powerful. This type of behavior does not please God. Tell me that doesn't describe many in our government. Look at the last part of vs 2. That spells death tax to me.

We are supposed to take care of the poor and afflicted; however God gives us the right to determine how and when and where we as individuals do it. That pretty much rules out socialism.


Well put Gidon. :clap:

[Gidon]

The biblical case against socialism? :)) Too funny. Have you ever been to a convent or a monastery of some kind? It is the very epitome of socialism in function.

you miss it. The people in the convents and monasteries are their because they CHOSE to. nobody forced them to go.

[Gidon]

States the person that believes Democrats want to destroy America. :rolleyes: Stop being a partisan stooge.

Physician heal thyself.

[Gidon]

The Bible makes it clear that we are to work to eat. This principle began in Eden after Adam and Eve sinned. The fact is there are many people who do not understand this principle and believe they are entitled. It is abundantly clear that those who are lazy, idle, slothful etc., will not be in the kingdom. If eternal life is the free gift of Christ, and such people do not receive it, are we to be more giving of what we earn to such people than our saviour? I believe in charity, helping those who CAN'T help themselves. Charity is me, personally giving of my money, time etc., to the needy. Confiscation of what I earn and redistribution by the government is NOT charity and is not advocated nor required anywhere in scripture.

Evidently, there is a great misunderstanding of what socialism is. From the Mirriam Webster online dictionary;

Socialism:1837
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Selling all we have and giving to the poor does not fall under any of these definitions, nor do charity or paying taxes. Socialism reduces people down to the lowest common denominator, it kills motivation, creativity and industry because people have no hope of reaping the rewards of there labors. Socialism produces a stagnant society. Has observing socialism in the former Soviet Union, China, etc. taught us nothing? Evidently not judging by the number of people who voted for Obama. If what socialism has visibly produced is what people believe are Biblical principles endorsed by God, no wonder we're in such a mess...

thank you for understanding the basis of this thread.

[Gidon]

Does it say that you should give most of your money to the government and the government will use it how the fit.

It makes provisions for the poor, and it states specifically how money is to be used, but the govenment doesn't decide for you how to administer it.

thank you for understanding the basis of this post

[Gem]

I Timothy 5: 8-

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

[Gidon]

The present administration is not even left. They are much further than that. They are all about power and control. Just as the ass, their symbol and the one the messiah rode in on, they have no sense of heritage or hope for posterity. Only bad tidings are in store. These are Americans doing unamerican things. How much Koolaid can people drink before they begin choking on it?

thank you for understanding the basis of this post

[Gidon]

I Timothy 5: 8-

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

thank you for understanding the basis of this post

[Gem]

35*“‘And in case your brother grows poor and so he is financially weak alongside you, you must also sustain him. As an alien resident and a settler, he must keep alive with you. 36*Do not take interest and usury from him, but you must be in fear of your God; and your brother must keep alive with you. 37*You must not give him your money on interest, and you must not give your food out on usury.

You also had to forgive debts every 7 and 50 years

Now since God lets the government stand then those who complain are complaining about God's arrangement

Seems you are not understanding the first part of your post here.

And in case your brother grows poor and so he is financially weak alongside you, you must also sustain him.

If people would help take care of their own relatives, the way God says to they would be just fine I believe. they wouldn't have to depend on the government.

[Gidon]

I am sorry, does this make amends: Democrats are evil and eat children. Better now?

Democrats do not eat children but they sure will defend the rights of those who do.

[adroit]

Democrats do not eat children but they sure will defend the rights of those who do.

Have any evidence to back up the claim that Democrats defend the rights of those who eat children?

[Voxpopuli]

I'm not sure if the poster is joking or not but there is no biblical case against socialism, capitalism or a mixed-economy like the one we have.

[adroit]

i'm not sure if the poster is joking or not but there is no biblical case against socialism, capitalism or a mixed-economy like the one we have.

+1000000

[lwdc]

I'm not sure if the poster is joking or not but there is no biblical case against socialism, capitalism or a mixed-economy like the one we have.He's not joking. He's serious.

[lwdc]

Have any evidence to back up the claim that Democrats defend the rights of those who eat children?Of course he doesn't. And imo, threads of his like this one have no business being in the RF.

[optrader]

I'm not sure if the poster is joking or not but there is no biblical case against socialism, capitalism or a mixed-economy like the one we have.


The Bible doesn't say we can't use heroin either, but it does make it clear our bodies are temples, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and that we are to take care of ourselves. It makes it clear there are consequences if we don't. Just because the words "socialism" or capitalism aren't used, doesn't mean we can't discern Biblical principles and make inferences as to how they apply to society today. :rolleyes:

[lwdc]

The Bible doesn't say we can't use heroin either, but it does make it clear our bodies are temples, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and that we are to take care of ourselves. It makes it clear there are consequences if we don't. Just because the words "socialism" or capitalism aren't used, doesn't mean we can't discern Biblical principles and make inferences as to how they apply to society today. :rolleyes:Then he should stick to Biblical principles while he's in the RF and refrain from his children-eating pejoratives. As a matter of fact, he should do that in the other forums too.

It's a shame that in this instance I have to take issue with someone with a Ludwig van B avatar... but I must. (Sorry.)

[CMike11]

A chunck of the oral law deals with damages to property.

Obvously if you can't have property their can't be damages.

Therefore, the bible does endorse private property rights.

[optrader]

Then he should stick to Biblical principles while he's in the RF and refrain from his children-eating pejoratives. As a matter of fact, he should do that in the other forums too.

It's a shame that in this instance I have to take issue with someone with a Ludwig van B avatar.

Granted, but his point about we can't apply Biblical principles to todays economic sytems was, IMO, appropriate for the thread.

P.S. Any fan of Beethoven is a friend of mine, issue taking or not! :D

[optrader]

A chunck of the oral law deals with damages to property.

Obvously if you can't have property their can't be damages.

Therefore, the bible does endorse private property rights.

Indeed it does, and since many of the patriarchs were fantastically wealthy, we can assume it condones wealth as well!

[CMike11]

Good point

Abraham was very rich.

[Scruffy]

Please stop with the Biblical, Religious, God examples to how the Government should be ran as you are up against liberals who's only God is Obama. Liberals hate all people who believe in any type of religion and anything you say to try an dconvince them using religion will only make you look foolish and give liberals more wood for their hateful fire. STOP!!!

There is a reason behind the 1st Amendment. I am a devoted Catholic, but my religion is my personal pleasure/experience/morals/beliefs and I would never push them on to anyone. Please stop with all the religion talk, no one wants to hear it in regards to our Constitution/Government especially the liberals.

Thank you,
Gastoys


:)) :)) :)) This is funny! Someone comes into the Religion Forum and then says "Stop with all the religion talk".

[Scruffy]

From Ecclesiastes Chapter 3
יג וְגַם כָּל-הָאָדָם שֶׁיֹּאכַל וְשָׁתָה, וְרָאָה טוֹב בְּכָל-עֲמָלוֹ--מַתַּת אֱלֹהִים, הִיא. 13 But also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy pleasure for all his labour, is the gift of God.

It says to me that the Lord has given us the right to enjoy the pleasure for our labor and that the one who earns it has the God given right to determine how it is enjoyed. So much for wealth re-distribution.

From Exodus 20
יג לֹא תַחְמֹד, בֵּית רֵעֶךָ; {ס} לֹא-תַחְמֹד אֵשֶׁת רֵעֶךָ, וְעַבְדּוֹ וַאֲמָתוֹ וְשׁוֹרוֹ וַחֲמֹרוֹ, וְכֹל, אֲשֶׁר לְרֵעֶךָ. {פ} 13 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; {S} thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The Socialist is motivated by coveting. They want what they cannot have or are not willing to work for it. They look at something that isn't theirs and they want it. So even it they cannot attain it they do not want anyone else to have it either. This is a truly evil thought process

From Micah Chapter 2

א הוֹי חֹשְׁבֵי-אָוֶן וּפֹעֲלֵי רָע, עַל-מִשְׁכְּבוֹתָם; בְּאוֹר הַבֹּקֶר יַעֲשׂוּהָ, כִּי יֶשׁ-לְאֵל יָדָם. 1 Woe to them that devise iniquity and work evil upon their beds! When the morning is light, they execute it, because it is in the power of their hand.
ב וְחָמְדוּ שָׂדוֹת וְגָזָלוּ, וּבָתִּים וְנָשָׂאוּ; וְעָשְׁקוּ גֶּבֶר וּבֵיתוֹ, וְאִישׁ וְנַחֲלָתוֹ. {פ} 2 And they covet fields, and seize them; and houses, and take them away; thus they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.

Wow, that is powerful. This type of behavior does not please God. Tell me that doesn't describe many in our government. Look at the last part of vs 2. That spells death tax to me.

We are supposed to take care of the poor and afflicted; however God gives us the right to determine how and when and where we as individuals do it. That pretty much rules out socialism.

I am so glad you brought this up!

My Mom and I talked about this recently. The liberal way of spreading around the wealth goes against one of the 10 commandments. It is not right to want what your neighbor has. Just concentrate on your own situation and belongings.

It is up to the individual as to how or if they will help the needy.

God will judge those that are greedy. It is not up to us.

[lwdc]

:)) :)) :)) This is funny! Someone comes into the Religion Forum and then says "Stop with all the religion talk".But it isn't quite so funny when the regulars of the RF come into the RF and say "Stop with all the politics talk", which is what some of us are saying.

[Harmonious]

There is a difference between charity and usurping.

While 1/7th of the field was left for the poor, the poor had to go and get it themselves. Actually, there was no particular measure of how much was to be left over.

[I am the Eggman]

I don't understand where this Obama is thh Messiah b.s. came from, but it's very childish.

It came from Louis Farrakhan, actually. In a speech. You can check it out on youtube.

[Voxpopuli]

The Bible doesn't say we can't use heroin either, but it does make it clear our bodies are temples, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and that we are to take care of ourselves. It makes it clear there are consequences if we don't. Just because the words "socialism" or capitalism aren't used, doesn't mean we can't discern Biblical principles and make inferences as to how they apply to society today. :rolleyes:

I would just urge caution to anyone who feels the need to use the bible justify any political system. The bible and Christianity were at one time used to justify the rights of monarchs and feudal lords and well some benefited and some did not. For the most part the elite benefited and well, Christianity was left with a historical black eye.

[Koushi Shinigami]

When has "selling" or "giving" ever been a part of socialism?

Hang on just a sec...



Evidently, there is a great misunderstanding of what socialism is. From the Mirriam Webster online dictionary;

Socialism:1837
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Selling all we have and giving to the poor does not fall under any of these definitions,


Selling all that one has so that person has no private property fits the definition you posted, that I bolded. Thankyou. ;)

[Koushi Shinigami]

A chunck of the oral law deals with damages to property.

Obvously if you can't have property their can't be damages.

Therefore, the bible does endorse private property rights.

For you, that would be what we call the Old Testament. My argument comes from the New Testament, which I understand that you do not recognize. ;)

[optrader]

Hang on just a sec...

Selling all that one has so that person has no private property fits the definition you posted, that I bolded. Thankyou. ;)

This definition is talking about SOCIETY as a whole. The words group and society are right in there. There are people, such as the rich man Jesus was talking to who value their possessions more than the kingdom, perhaps for such people, ridding themselves of their wordly possessions may be the only way to deal with their greed. I would advocate such if the alternative was to lose salvation. Remember, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." The reason Christ told the man to do this was not to benefit society, which is the alleged goal of socialism, but to benefit the individual man, this is not socialism.

Also, I believe God is very consistent in His principles. If socialism was His goal, why did He condone, encourage and bless so many of the wealthy in the Bible? You are looking at a specific instance where a person was admonished to rid himself of wordly possessions, there is nothing wrong with it, and it may be neccessary for some of the people some of the time, that is not the same as implying socialism is what God intended or supports. I have said many times, we need to look at what the entirety of scripture says to gain a complete understanding IS. 28:10...

[optrader]

I would just urge caution to anyone who feels the need to use the bible justify any political system. The bible and Christianity were at one time used to justify the rights of monarchs and feudal lords and well some benefited and some did not. For the most part the elite benefited and well, Christianity was left with a historical black eye.

That's because people confuse the corruption, coersion and violence that has been done in the name of Christ with actual Christianity. Gods word does advocate a monarchy, with Himself as ruler. This system was rejected when the people desired to be as other nations. God told Sammuel to give the people what they want, but warn them first of what they are going to get. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." We've reaped what we have sown, it is not God's fault or the fault of His word that we have made such a mess of self rule. I look forward to His reign as king...

[adroit]

This is just ridiculous. The underlying message of the New Testament deals with two main principles: Love God and love your fellow human beings. Whatever versus, whether they talk about helping the poor, owning lots of private property, or whatever in-between, is on a personal level. Do not try and twist it to justify a political system of your liking. IMHO, that's using God's word for political gain.

Also, the wonderful thing about our country: don't like the current political climate? Change it. But, be cautious not to exploit people's religious views to do so.

[Gidon]

I'm not sure if the poster is joking or not but there is no biblical case against socialism, capitalism or a mixed-economy like the one we have.

proof???????

[Gidon]

This is just ridiculous. The underlying message of the New Testament deals with two main principles: Love God and love your fellow human beings. Whatever versus, whether they talk about helping the poor, owning lots of private property, or whatever in-between, is on a personal level. Do not try and twist it to justify a political system of your liking. IMHO, that's using God's word for political gain.

Also, the wonderful thing about our country: don't like the current political climate? Change it. But, be cautious not to exploit people's religious views to do so.

you are entitled to your opinion.

[CMike11]

To my knowledge all the great jewish leaders were rich, Abraham, King David, King Solomon.

I can't think of any that were poor.

[Gidon]

Of course he doesn't. And imo, threads of his like this one have no business being in the RF.

Sure it does. Don't let your disdain for me cloud your judgment that you make a silly statement all in the name of disputing everything I post on the board.

Remember, relax and squeeze the trigger, don't pull it. You will get a more effective and enjoyable contempt for me.


Have a lovely day.
:)

[Gidon]

This definition is talking about SOCIETY as a whole. The words group and society are right in there. There are people, such as the rich man Jesus was talking to who value their possessions more than the kingdom, perhaps for such people, ridding themselves of their wordly possessions may be the only way to deal with their greed. I would advocate such if the alternative was to lose salvation. Remember, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." The reason Christ told the man to do this was not to benefit society, which is the alleged goal of socialism, but to benefit the individual man, this is not socialism.

Also, I believe God is very consistent in His principles. If socialism was His goal, why did He condone, encourage and bless so many of the wealthy in the Bible? You are looking at a specific instance where a person was admonished to rid himself of wordly possessions, there is nothing wrong with it, and it may be neccessary for some of the people some of the time, that is not the same as implying socialism is what God intended or supports. I have said many times, we need to look at what the entirety of scripture says to gain a complete understanding IS. 28:10...

outstanding. When someone gets hurt or injured they might be prescribed pain medication. They take it as they need and when they are done they are done. But there are some who would still want it and want it, next thing you know they are an addict and the pain medicine has become their goal and their focus. they become desperate and turn animalistic and will do anything to get that fix.

The same for some of the rich men in the bible, possessions were their god. Not all were like that but some.

[Voxpopuli]

That's because people confuse the corruption, coersion and violence that has been done in the name of Christ with actual Christianity. Gods word does advocate a monarchy, with Himself as ruler. This system was rejected when the people desired to be as other nations. God told Sammuel to give the people what they want, but warn them first of what they are going to get. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." We've reaped what we have sown, it is not God's fault or the fault of His word that we have made such a mess of self rule. I look forward to His reign as king...

That is pretty much my point. The corruption happens whenever the state incorporates the Church to justify its own actions. This would not happen if the Church refused to be associated with the affairs of the state. Which is why I urge caution whenever a believer attempts to justify any political system from the bible.

proof???????

I guess from a religious perspective anyone can claim anything. Doctrine from silence isn't out the realm.

[Gidon]

To my knowledge all the great jewish leaders were rich, Abraham, King David, King Solomon.

I can't think of any that were poor.

Yes. And then there is Job.

A biblical riches to rags to riches story.

[Gidon]

That is pretty much my point. The corruption happens whenever the state incorporates the Church to justify its own actions. This would not happen if the Church refused to be associated with the affairs of the state. Which is why I urge caution whenever a believer attempts to justify any political system from the bible.

Whether you believe it or not our government is found on Judeo Christian ethics and laws. My post is that socialism is not. And just b/c I had a post on socialism in this; so what? There are posts on everything here, alcohol, raising children, diets, money,... socialism is just another subject. I believe the Bible to be God's perfect Word to humanity and he has something to say about everything.



I guess from a religious perspective anyone can claim anything. Doctrine from silence isn't out the realm.

Obviously the proof against my conclusions eludes you otherwise you would have attempted to produce some. Making arbitrary statements of dissent with no evidence is both boring and uninspiring. I would be happy to discuss the subject with you on here. But if you cannot back up your assertions then why bother making one?

[nofear2]

Knowing full well the Tanach and teachings of our sages I am comfortable saying that as Jewish people, amongst each other we are commanded to look to our brothers (fellow Jew) welfare. Is this Socialism? You judge.

[Voxpopuli]

Whether you believe it or not our government is found on Judeo Christian ethics and laws. My post is that socialism is not. And just b/c I had a post on socialism in this; so what? There are posts on everything here, alcohol, raising children, diets, money,... socialism is just another subject. I believe the Bible to be God's perfect Word to humanity and he has something to say about everything.


Obviously the proof against my conclusions eludes you otherwise you would have attempted to produce some. Making arbitrary statements of dissent with no evidence is both boring and uninspiring. I would be happy to discuss the subject with you on here. But if you cannot back up your assertions then why bother making one?

No, I realized that this was the religious forum and that it is open to any religious opinion that is out there. Without you establishing your exegetical foundation in your original post, I have no way of disagreeing with your statement.

[gpd®]

Yes. And then there is Job.

A biblical riches to rags to riches story.

And the streets of Heaven are lined with gold.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Remember, "it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."


Oh yeah. Villification of the wealty. Forgot that socialist tendency. Thank you.

[lwdc]

Sure it does. Don't let your disdain for me cloud your judgment that you make a silly statement all in the name of disputing everything I post on the board.

Remember, relax and squeeze the trigger, don't pull it. You will get a more effective and enjoyable contempt for me.


Have a lovely day.
:)I have no issue with you. It's your posts that are contemptible and which have no business in the RF. That's why they get deleted. And don't project your contempt for certain groups of people on to me. Take your blanket generalizations of them being killers, children-eaters, anti-christ, etc., to the politics forum.

Better yet, take them out of all the forums.

You have a lovely day too. :razz:

[lwdc]

Whether you believe it or not our government is found on Judeo Christian ethics and laws.No, it isn't. Especially because, biblically speaking, there is no such thing.

[lwdc]

And just b/c I had a post on socialism in this; so what? There are posts on everything here, alcohol, raising children, diets, money,... socialism is just another subject. I believe the Bible to be God's perfect Word to humanity and he has something to say about everything. Almost everything you’ve listed above -- alcohol, raising children, diets, money -- are talked about in God's perfect word.

But socialism is not.

Socialism is a modern invention, whereas its components such as welfare, greed, charity, covetousness, property, etc., are not. That’s why your thread has opened the politics floodgates. You’re trying to describe a complex invention in biblical terms which does NOT exist in biblical terms, although its components (property, government, etc.) do. You are trying to make a political point in the RF, as you typically do.

[lwdc]

Obviously the proof against my conclusions eludes you otherwise you would have attempted to produce some. Prove that pink unicorns don’t exist.

Produce some evidence.

Go ahead. Prove it.

[nofear2]

Almost everything you’ve listed above -- alcohol, raising children, diets, money -- are talked about in God's perfect word.

But socialism is not.

Socialism is a modern invention, whereas its components such as welfare, greed, charity, covetousness, property, etc., are not. That’s why your thread has opened the politics floodgates. You’re trying to describe a complex invention in biblical terms which does NOT exist in biblical terms, although its components (property, government, etc.) do. You are trying to make a political point in the RF, as you typically do.

Very well put!

[lwdc]

Very well put!A shaynem dank nofear! :D

[Apatriot]

Seems to me that "Sell everything you have and give the money to the destitute, " make a biblical case FOR socialism.

But that's through your choice, not through the coercive power of government.

[Apatriot]

The biblical case against socialism? :)) Too funny. Have you ever been to a convent or a monastery of some kind? It is the very epitome of socialism in function.

Yes, but it's by choice, not force.

Pure socialism is a great idea. However, practically speaking, it doesn't work beyond the level that all involved know each other and only if it's totally voluntary.

[Koushi Shinigami]

But that's through your choice, not through the coercive power of government.

We get the government we choose.

[Koushi Shinigami]

That's why they get deleted.


:angel:

[meggers49]

7*“In case some one of your brothers becomes poor among you in one of your cities, in your land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not harden your heart or be closefisted toward your poor brother. 8*For you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of. 9*Watch out for yourself for fear a base word should come to be in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of the release, has come close,’ and your eye should indeed become ungenerous toward your poor brother, and you should give him nothing, and he has to call out to Jehovah against you, and it has become a sin on your part. 10*You should by all means give to him, and your heart should not be stingy in your giving to him, because on this account Jehovah your God will bless you in every deed of yours and in every undertaking of yours. 11*For someone poor will never cease to be in the midst of the land. That is why I am commanding you, saying, ‘You should generously open up your hand to your afflicted and poor brother in your land.’

Again, I say, all of these are acts of charity, not imposed by the government.

[optrader]

Oh yeah. Villification of the wealty. Forgot that socialist tendency. Thank you.

Let's not leave out hypocrisy. Socialists love to condemn wealth while being wealthy themselves, for instance Michael Moore, or subject everyone else to things they aren't subject to, for instance any rich liberal and almost any topic such as public education. Wasn't it a real nail-biter when it was in the news the Obama's were deciding between public and private education for their kids?? HOLY COW!! :eek:, They chose private!! Whew; That was a close one...

[RayMan]

Prove that pink unicorns don’t exist.

Produce some evidence.

Go ahead. Prove it.

Any thing I personally have never seen or touched does not exist.

Therefore pink unicorns don't exist.

Any other questions?

[meggers49]

I don't understand what this has to do with anything. I mean nobody brings up Homer's Odessey or Jack and the Bean Stalk as some sort of guide to establish Government policy. The bible, quran, and torah all have some insane anti-scientific policies yet we choose to omit those because we know in our hearts that they are wrong, i.e. slavery, subjecation of women, corporal punishment without fair trial, & the capital enforcement of the Ten Commandments. There is a reason people believed in demons and ghosts in those ancient texts... they were even dumber than we are today, they thought the earth was flat.

they also believed in taking care of themselves and not having the government do it for them and helping those in need without being told to.

who is better off? a person who has the right to self determination or someone who is under the thumb of a government that believes it's my mother?

[Gidon]

Almost everything you’ve listed above -- alcohol, raising children, diets, money -- are talked about in God's perfect word.

But socialism is not.

Socialism is a modern invention, whereas its components such as welfare, greed, charity, covetousness, property, etc., are not. That’s why your thread has opened the politics floodgates. You’re trying to describe a complex invention in biblical terms which does NOT exist in biblical terms, although its components (property, government, etc.) do. You are trying to make a political point in the RF, as you typically do.

Yes typically I do make my point. Thanks for recognizing that :)


Here is where IMHO you are wrong:
Isaiah 5
כ הוֹי הָאֹמְרִים לָרַע טוֹב, וְלַטּוֹב רָע: שָׂמִים חֹשֶׁךְ לְאוֹר וְאוֹר לְחֹשֶׁךְ, שָׂמִים מַר לְמָתוֹק וּמָתוֹק לְמָר. {ס} 20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that change darkness into light, and light into darkness; that change bitter into sweet, and sweet into bitter!
כא הוֹי, חֲכָמִים בְּעֵינֵיהֶם; וְנֶגֶד פְּנֵיהֶם, נְבֹנִים. {ס} 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

The socialist philosophy is a humanistic one. It outright denies God and His power. It makes all values and morals relative. So If one has the audacity and temerity to actually believe in an all powerful all knowing God then they are automatically at odds with socialism. Because in socialism the state determines what is right from their humanistic world view.

Ecclesiastes 10
ב לֵב חָכָם לִימִינוֹ, וְלֵב כְּסִיל לִשְׂמֹאלוֹ. 2 A wise man's understanding is at his right hand; but a fool's understanding at his left.

If God is eternal then his word is eternal as well. Therefore He speaks through his written word for ALL generations. From the first man to the last man. My God is all powerful and all knowing and all righteous God. My God is infinite and therefore cannot be put in a box. His wisdom is beyond all human understanding.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Let's not leave out hypocrisy. Socialists love to condemn wealth while being wealthy themselves, for instance Michael Moore, or subject everyone else to things they aren't subject to, for instance any rich liberal and almost any topic such as public education. Wasn't it a real nail-biter when it was in the news the Obama's were deciding between public and private education for their kids?? HOLY COW!! :eek:, They chose private!! Whew; That was a close one...

Someone on this forum once claimed that Jesus and his deciples were not poor. That Judas was the keeper of the purse. Hmmmmm. Evidence keeps stacking up.

[Gidon]

I have no issue with you. It's your posts that are contemptible and which have no business in the RF. That's why they get deleted. And don't project your contempt for certain groups of people on to me. Take your blanket generalizations of them being killers, children-eaters, anti-christ, etc., to the politics forum.

Better yet, take them out of all the forums.

You have a lovely day too. :razz:

No one has deleted this one yet. I didn't call anyone a child eater. Try the truth.

And this may come as a shock to you but the earth has no shortage of killers.

And since you do not respond to the multiple questions regarding your faith you have no grounds to make any assertion at me. Stop stalking me. Its getting old now.

[meggers49]

I guess I agree, but Leviticus also told me I can stone my wife to death if she commits adultery, as long as the whole village can witness the stoning, why don't we make that a law? BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE CRAZY! And that is why we have seperation of Church and State

um, no Mooky, we have seperation of Church and State so the state can't insist I follow one religion of a national choosing, such as the Anglican Church aka The Church of England or the Russian Orthodox Church. It had nothing at all to do with having a religious influence on our laws and our method of governance, just that they couldn't dictate the religion.

[Gidon]

No, it isn't. Especially because, biblically speaking, there is no such thing.

Wha Wha What?????????


Oh no you didn't.

Are you denying your belief in God?

[Gidon]

Actually, yes. One of your posts in this thread has been deleted.

Like uhhh you just responded to one. The vast majority do not.

[Gidon]

I have no issue with you. It's your posts that are contemptible and which have no business in the RF. That's why they get deleted. And don't project your contempt for certain groups of people on to me. Take your blanket generalizations of them being killers, children-eaters, anti-christ, etc., to the politics forum.

Better yet, take them out of all the forums.

You have a lovely day too. :razz:

Got three times as many post as you

[meggers49]

this might have been an interesting thread if people could stop with the sniping, which, btw is NOT allowed in here. That is WP methods and we try to be above that in this forum.


as it stands it has become a constant flame war and i'm outta here.

[Gidon]

this might have been an interesting thread if people could stop with the sniping, which, btw is NOT allowed in here. That is WP methods and we try to be above that in this forum.


as it stands it has become a constant flame war and i'm outta here.

I regret you are doing that. You were making good sense here. I have a stalker that follows wherever I post and stirs stuff up.

[lwdc]

Here is where IMHO you are wrong:
Isaiah 5
כ הוֹי הָאֹמְרִים לָרַע טוֹב, וְלַטּוֹב רָע: שָׂמִים חֹשֶׁךְ לְאוֹר וְאוֹר לְחֹשֶׁךְ, שָׂמִים מַר לְמָתוֹק וּמָתוֹק לְמָר. {ס} 20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that change darkness into light, and light into darkness; that change bitter into sweet, and sweet into bitter!
כא הוֹי, חֲכָמִים בְּעֵינֵיהֶם; וְנֶגֶד פְּנֵיהֶם, נְבֹנִים. {ס} 21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

...

Ecclesiastes 10
ב לֵב חָכָם לִימִינוֹ, וְלֵב כְּסִיל לִשְׂמֹאלוֹ. 2 A wise man's understanding is at his right hand; but a fool's understanding at his left.


^^^All true, and not a lick about socialism.

Socialism as we know it today does NOT exist in the Bible. In fact, states as we know them today do NOT exist in the Bible. There are nations, cities, kingdoms, and empires, but there are NO political "states"! There are NO constitutional republics!

There are NO "democracies"!

NONE of these things are biblical concepts: they ALL can be derived from Humanism as you implied in your post (which is the only thing in this whole thread you've said that's right, imo).

In Biblical terms, socialism isn’t "state" ownership, because in Biblical terms states don’t exist! The reason why socialism doesn't work today in practice is because perfectly equal distribution of wealth does NOT work in practice. Man is prone to covetousness, slothfulness, and theft. Socialism in practice tends to benefit a few, not the masses. Socialism is a modern INVENTION which has in practice been used by a few individuals to manipulate large populations. And the modern concept of socialism has influenced you to begin a political discussion in the RF where it does not belong.

Your OP is wrong because your premises are wrong. However, you attributed to your premises their human origin, which is a good start. Now, if you took this thread to another forum, it would be less of a disaster.

[CMike11]

I agree.

The snipping is against the rules and it should stop.

It tarnishes from a good discussion.

[CMike11]

Lw be a good boy.

[lwdc]

No one has deleted this one yet. I didn't call anyone a child eater. Try the truth. The truth is that you, true to form, implied another guest in here was an "idiot" and your post was deleted.

And since you do not respond to the multiple questions regarding your faith you have no grounds to make any assertion at me. Stop stalking me. Its getting old now.My faith is no mystery to anyone on this board. I've never ignored questions about my faith and in fact I'm pretty clear, if not outspoken, about it.

Fyi, there is a handy-dandy ignore feature on this board. I suggest you use it.

[Marleysdaddy]

Any thing I personally have never seen or touched does not exist.

Therefore pink unicorns don't exist.

Any other questions?

I assume this means that you personally have either seen or touched your god? :mrgreen:

[DRS]

Again, I say, all of these are acts of charity, not imposed by the government.

Since Israel was a theocracy and God made the laws, it was government imposed

[CMike11]

It wasn't government imposed. If you didn't give enough for charity, you wouldn't get fined by the government.

It wasn't enforced by the government.

[DRS]

It wasn't government imposed. If you didn't give enough for charity, you wouldn't get fined by the government.

It wasn't enforced by the government.

Failure to follow God's law inlcuding helping the poor brought God's vengence and meant the loss of blessing for the nation

[I am the Eggman]

For you, that would be what we call the Old Testament. My argument comes from the New Testament, which I understand that you do not recognize. ;)

Wow, god went from a capitalist in the OT to a socialist in the NT? Pretty big change for something that doesn't. You sure both books are about the same dude? ;)

[gpd®]

Someone on this forum once claimed that Jesus and his deciples were not poor. That Judas was the keeper of the purse. Hmmmmm. Evidence keeps stacking up.

I also believe that with some diligent Bible research, you can find out that he has 2 houses or at least 2 homes.

[Koushi Shinigami]

Wow, god went from a capitalist in the OT to a socialist in the NT? Pretty big change for something that doesn't. You sure both books are about the same dude? ;)

I like to think of the OT as football and the NT as baseball. ALA George Carlin. ;)

[TexasGreatGranny]

When Jesus was crucified the old testament laws were fulfilled. If you are going to use the bible to argue points with it should be the new testament. The only law that the new testament recognizes from the old testament is the 10 commandments. If you do not recognize the new testament well then we are in a whole nuther world.

[AeroEngineer]

To my knowledge all the great jewish leaders were rich, Abraham, King David, King Solomon.

I can't think of any that were poor.


Jesus? :angel:

[CMike11]

Jesus? :angel:

I said jewish leader.

Jesus wasn't a jewish leader.

[CMike11]

When Jesus was crucified the old testament laws were fulfilled. If you are going to use the bible to argue points with it should be the new testament. The only law that the new testament recognizes from the old testament is the 10 commandments. If you do not recognize the new testament well then we are in a whole nuther world.

You are entitled to your beliefs.

I do not recognize the new testament as an authority.

[CMike11]

Wow, god went from a capitalist in the OT to a socialist in the NT? Pretty big change for something that doesn't. You sure both books are about the same dude? ;)

The Torah and NT go in very different directions.

[CMike11]

Failure to follow God's law inlcuding helping the poor brought God's vengence and meant the loss of blessing for the nation

True.

We are talking about G-D's law.

The point is that the government wouldn't punish you for failing to give the poor. You are supposed to follow the Torah. The government wouldn't fine you or take over your land as they would in a socialist state.

[lwdc]

You are entitled to your beliefs.

I do not recognize the new testament as an authority.She was responding to the OP, Mikey. And since the OP is a "Messianic", she makes a good point, one which the OP ought to respond to in turn.

[Harmonious]

I like to think of the OT as football and the NT as baseball. ALA George Carlin. ;):))

[AeroEngineer]

I said jewish leader.

Jesus wasn't a jewish leader.


In what ways was Jesus neither Jewish nor a leader?

[CMike11]

In what ways was Jesus neither Jewish nor a leader?

That's an easy one.

When he started going his own way and creating his own religion, he was no longer jewish, and he was never a jewish leader.

He was the founder of the christian movement or religion.

[CMike11]

She was responding to the OP, Mikey. And since the OP is a "Messianic", she makes a good point, one which the OP ought to respond to in turn.

For private conversations she should use the PM feature, otherwise anyone can comment on anything in a public discussion.

[Techgod]

OT trivia...


What tribe was supported by a tithe of the other tribes?

[Techgod]

Before you enjoy the pleasure for your labor, make sure and take 10% off the top.

Fudging on your tithe is much worse than your tax return. Although the IRS will go after your family, God goes after three or four generation if not more.

[lwdc]

For private conversations she should use the PM feature, otherwise anyone can comment on anything in a public discussion.Of course.

But her post was meant to be public, and I'm interested in the OP's response to her post.

I already know what your response would be. ;)

[CMike11]

Yeah...I get your point.

[RickRhetoric]

We are supposed to take care of the poor and afflicted; however God gives us the right to determine how and when and where we as individuals do it. That pretty much rules out socialism.

Well maybe so, but America got a strong and irreversible dose of socialism anyway.

Perhaps God inflicted socialism on Christian America as a punishment. After all he blessed America with the resources to do great good for all the world. But Christians gave it away to hedonists and heathens.

[optrader]

OT trivia...


What tribe was supported by a tithe of the other tribes?

The Levites. Todays denominations consider themselves equivalent to the Levites and demand/expect 10%, is this biblical in the NT?

[CMike11]

The priests job was to administer the temple. They needed some way to survive. I don't see anything wrong with providing that method.

[optrader]

The priests job was to administer the temple. They needed some way to survive. I don't see anything wrong with providing that method.

The Levites did not receive as did the other tribes, the tithe was commanded by God specifically to meet their needs. However, as the priesthood was done away with at the cross, the requirement to tithe also was done away with. It is not the idea of tithing that I find objectionable, it is todays churches equating themselves with the Levites and demanding 10%. Many churches go so far as to demand their members provide W-2s to the church so the church can verify they are giving the correct amount. No where in the NT is tithing REQUIRED, the NT says "Jesus loves a cheerful giver." I would also point out that other methods of giving, such as to various charities, is a legitimate way to glorify God and do His work on earth. If you wish to give 10% (or more) to your church, there is nothing wrong with that, the church has no biblical basis to DEMAND it of you...

[CMike11]

The Levites did not receive as did the other tribes, the tithe was commanded by God specifically to meet their needs. However, as the priesthood was done away with at the cross, the requirement to tithe also was done away with.

Respectfully, you are a bit confused.

The priesthood was NOT done away with the cross. Jesus had nothing to do with it.

Sacrifices by jews are no longer offered because the temple in jerusalem was destroyed. Sacrifices can only be done there.

The priesthood still exists. In fact, I am a kohen, which is a jewish priest.

Separate of the portion given to the priests to administer the temple part of the land of the jews was to be available for charity and the very poor. I think that is a good think. Unlike socialism it wasn't administered by a central power.


It is not the idea of tithing that I find objectionable, it is todays churches equating themselves with the Levites and demanding 10%. Many churches go so far as to demand their members provide W-2s to the church so the church can verify they are giving the correct amount. No where in the NT is tithing REQUIRED, the NT says "Jesus loves a cheerful giver." I would also point out that other methods of giving, such as to various charities, is a legitimate way to glorify God and do His work on earth. If you wish to give 10% (or more) to your church, there is nothing wrong with that, the church has no biblical basis to DEMAND it of you...

As you may have noticed I am jewish so it's hard for me to comment on what the church does. I do understand that religious establishments do need a method to pay their bills.

I do think it's tacky to pass a basket around for people to put money in. But as I said I do realize that it takes money to pay their bills.

[Marleysdaddy]

CMike11,

How do synagogues generate operating revenue?

[CMike11]

They sell the manna that comes down,

[CMike11]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Membership.

However, you can attend services without being a member.

[optrader]

Respectfully, you are a bit confused.

The priesthood was NOT done away with the cross. Jesus had nothing to do with it.

Sacrifices by jews are no longer offered because the temple in jerusalem was destroyed. Sacrifices can only be done there.

The priesthood still exists. In fact, I am a kohen, which is a jewish priest.

Separate of the portion given to the priests to administer the temple part of the land of the jews was to be available for charity and the very poor. I think that is a good think. Unlike socialism it wasn't administered by a central power.

As you may have noticed I am jewish so it's hard for me to comment on what the church does. I do understand that religious establishments do need a method to pay their bills.

I do think it's tacky to pass a basket around for people to put money in. But as I said I do realize that it takes money to pay their bills.

I respect your beliefs but I am speaking from a Christian perspective. The book of Hebrews makes it clear that Christ is our high priest, as such, no other earthly priest is needed for Christians.

I too understand churches need a means to pay their bills but I'm curious as to why Jews don't object to Christians using the word "tithe." Am I wrong in saying it was established by God as a specific means to take care of the Levites? I do wish to be accurate in my history. If tithing was established as such, how can Christian churches apply it to themselves?

I am also curious, how do Jews today get remission of their sins without shedding blood? Wasn't the purpose of the temple to provide a means to deal with sin? How does what you do as a "kohen" differ from what priests did in the temple? How is a kohen different than a Rabbi?

I also agree taking care of those who can't take care of themselves is a good thing, whether by Jews or Christians, (or anyone else, for that matter) I just don't believe a specific amount is mandated for Christians, and that the requirement for being charitable and furthering God's work can be done by other means than giving money to a particular church.

[Marleysdaddy]

They sell the manna that comes down,

:)) Nice one...

Thanks for the other answer.

[CMike11]

I respect your beliefs but I am speaking from a Christian perspective. The book of Hebrews makes it clear that Christ is our high priest, as such, no other earthly priest is needed for Christians.

You are certainly are entitled your beliefs. But if you are saying that jews didn't make sacrifices anymore due to any reason connected with jesus you are factually wrong.

If you are saying christians didn't make sacrifices because of jesus then I can't argue with that.



I too understand churches need a means to pay their bills but I'm curious as to why Jews don't object to Christians using the word "tithe." Am I wrong in saying it was established by God as a specific means to take care of the Levites? I do wish to be accurate in my history. If tithing was established as such, how can Christian churches apply it to themselves?

As a jew I don't care if christians use the word "tithe". Why would I care? It certainly beats the jews are blind stuff that I hear a lot on the message boards.

And yes you are correct. G-D gave the priests the assignment of taking care of the temple and administration. If the kohens were given this task by G-D, it's only right to establish a way for them to survive. It's not like they are on welfare.

I am also curious, how do Jews today get remission of their sins without shedding blood? Wasn't the purpose of the temple to provide a means to deal with sin? How does what you do as a "kohen" differ from what priests did in the temple? How is a kohen different than a Rabbi?

What is this infatuation among christians about blood? The point was never the blood it was that you are making a sacrifice. If you sacrifice your sheep, you are losing some thing of value.

You can also make sacrifices by giving to charity.

Basically jews get forgiveness from sin using a five step process, involving asking for forgivenss, restitution, and repentance.

Here is more on it...

http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm

A kohen is a kohen because of tribal lineage. I am a kohen because my father was a kohen.

A rabbi goes to rabbinic school and gets ordained as a rabbi.

However, you can be a kohen if you are jewish, and your father was a kohen, even if you are an ignorant schmuck :lol:

A kohen's function in the synagogue is a little different.

The focus of the saturday (shabbat) service is the reading of the torah. Every week a portion is read, until at the end of the year, the entire torah is read, and the beginning of the year we start over.

Each shabbat service, a person is called to read the torah. Actually the person is called up and someone reads in place of that person, since reading the torah directly from the scroll takes some expertise. Seven people are called up.

The first person called up is a kohen, the second is a levi (assistant to the priests during temple time, the third person is an Israel ( a commoner/peasant). Just kidding, I mean a jew who isn't a kohen or a levi.

Some of the tasks in the service are based on tribal lineage.

I also agree taking care of those who can't take care of themselves is a good thing, whether by Jews or Christians, (or anyone else, for that matter) I just don't believe a specific amount is mandated for Christians, and that the requirement for being charitable and furthering God's work can be done by other means than giving money to a particular church.

I agree.

[optrader]

JEWS ARE BLIND?? Holy Cow! I had no idea! :eek:

Seriously, Thanks for the info. I'm less ignorant by your post, and I try not to be a schmuck. (Not always successfully) I appreciate you're educating me on this...

[jwil59]

You are certainly are entitled your beliefs. But if you are saying that jews didn't make sacrifices anymore due to any reason connected with jesus you are factually wrong.

If you are saying christians didn't make sacrifices because of jesus then I can't argue with that.





As a jew I don't care if christians use the word "tithe". Why would I care? It certainly beats the jews are blind stuff that I hear a lot on the message boards.

And yes you are correct. G-D gave the priests the assignment of taking care of the temple and administration. If the kohens were given this task by G-D, it's only right to establish a way for them to survive. It's not like they are on welfare.



What is this infatuation among christians about blood? The point was never the blood it was that you are making a sacrifice. If you sacrifice your sheep, you are losing some thing of value.

You can also make sacrifices by giving to charity.

Basically jews get forgiveness from sin using a five step process, involving asking for forgivenss, restitution, and repentance.

Here is more on it...

http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm

A kohen is a kohen because of tribal lineage. I am a kohen because my father was a kohen.

A rabbi goes to rabbinic school and gets ordained as a rabbi.

However, you can be a kohen if you are jewish, and your father was a kohen, even if you are an ignorant schmuck :lol:

A kohen's function in the synagogue is a little different.

The focus of the saturday (shabbat) service is the reading of the torah. Every week a portion is read, until at the end of the year, the entire torah is read, and the beginning of the year we start over.

Each shabbat service, a person is called to read the torah. Actually the person is called up and someone reads in place of that person, since reading the torah directly from the scroll takes some expertise. Seven people are called up.

The first person called up is a kohen, the second is a levi (assistant to the priests during temple time, the third person is an Israel ( a commer/peasant). Just kidding, I mean a jew who isn't a kohen or a levi.

Some of the tasks in the service are based on tribal lineage.



I agree.

Thanks for this post Mike, I learned from that.

[jwil59]

I don't consider myself a socialist but I do not have a problem with the Government helping the poor. What I hate the most is when fringe righties label everyone that is less fortunate than them as lazy and worthless. Those people are IMO on the fringe and not indicitive of the total American population.

As to the Bible, well righties have no problem rolling out The Word and beating it over the head of gay folks and pro-choice people in the political realms. I agree with much of what they say, especially in regards to what is sin and what is not, but I do disagree with anyone trying to gain political ground by using God's Word out of context and that is what happens most of the time. My view is that if the Bible, especially NT instruction, is good enough to beat up the gay folks with then It is good enough in regards to helping the poor and disabled. There should be no question about Jesus' heart for the poor, nobody can dispute that.

[CMike11]

At least in Judaism there is nothing wrong with being a rich man.

As Rev Tevia said in "Fiddler On The Roof"

"Dear God, you made many, many poor people.
I realize, of course, that it's no shame to be poor.
But it's no great honor either!
So, what would have been so terrible if I had a small fortune?"