the evils of socialized health care

[newfoundlander]

I am from the province of newfoundland, in Canada. I live in Labrador City and we are a mining town. We pay more income tax per person than any other community in my province. Meanwhile we have the worst health care in the province. We are hard working people but yet our people suffer because the government drains our wealth, and gives us garbage in return. It is disgraceful.

Do not allow government to control your health care, or you will regret it. They WILL jack up your federal debt, and you WILL be controlled. BEWARE.

[DRS]

Maybe all the years of having to pay out welfare to people living in NF drained the system

Of course there are many other drains on the healthcare system out there too

[newfoundlander]

If my wife and I need an emergency operation we have to depend on a surgeon who was educated in Uganda. He has buchered more than one person in this community, but we cannot refuse his servive. Wonderful. Newfoundlanders built much of Ontario, and we are the hardest working people in this country. You need not talk of our welfare system. We wouldn't have welfare if Canada and the North Atlantic Fisheries Organization were not raping the Grand Banks. Socialism is killing our part of the country.

[DRS]

For how long was NF the aids capital of Canada?

Alcoholism was also a problem

Education is a problem also out there

[DRS]

There is alwys the option of moving

[King Cantona]

You have a bad experience of socialised medicine and you completely decry it, well I live in England and the best thing that ever happened was that healthcare is available to everyone....

Of course there are things you can decry about it but I have seen the American healthcare system at first hand and I think the British system is better...

That's just one man's opinion...

[PredFan]

Nationalized helathcare will be a disaster.

Just as it is in Canada and the UK.

I have been a health care professional for 25 years and have seen countless people from all over the world come to the US for healthcare. I have heard horror stories from nationalized medicine. Typically those from accross the pond who have experience with it almost always say that the british healthcare system is great until you actually need it. Oh, you can get free check ups, see a doctor for free, and get emergencty care free. You can even get major surgery for free.

Free yes...IF you don't die waiting for it, and if the government deems you eligible.

[PredFan]

I am from the province of newfoundland, in Canada. I live in Labrador City and we are a mining town. We pay more income tax per person than any other community in my province. Meanwhile we have the worst health care in the province. We are hard working people but yet our people suffer because the government drains our wealth, and gives us garbage in return. It is disgraceful.

Do not allow government to control your health care, or you will regret it. They WILL jack up your federal debt, and you WILL be controlled. BEWARE.

It saddens me to admit that the majority, the VAST majority, of American are morons. When it comes to this, all they hear is:

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, free healthcare blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah helathcare for everone blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[johnrocks]

It saddens me to admit that the majority, the VAST majority of American are morons. When it comes to this, all they hear is:

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, free healthcare blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah helathcare for everone blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah.

This is what *free* gets you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CseokmSLfm8
Just think how that's going to look like with health care in a nation of 300 million.:eek:

[PredFan]

This is what *free* gets you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CseokmSLfm8
Just think how that's going to look like with health care in a nation of 300 million.:eek:

Can't see it behind this firewall, but I can imagine it.

[Abe Babe]

When my wife tore her ACL in Canada on our honeymoon (no, skiing, you pervs) we got great care. They told us we'd have to pay cash and bill our insurance company. The bill for the Dr. and the hospital and a leg brace was $375. The brace alone would have cost more than that in the states.

[PredFan]

When my wife tore her ACL in Canada on our honeymoon (no, skiing, you pervs) we got great care. They told us we'd have to pay cash and bill our insurance company. The bill for the Dr. and the hospital and a leg brace was $375. The brace alone would have cost more than that in the states.

My daughter broke her arm two years ago. The emergency room visit, the cast, the doctor's and nurses time, and the x-rays cost me $50.

HERE in the USA!

[DRS]

My daughter broke her arm two years ago. The emergency room visit, the cast, the doctor's and nurses time, and the x-rays cost me $50.

HERE in the USA!

What was the bill to the insurance company

[Ballygrl]

What was the bill to the insurance company

No doubt the bill sent to the insurance company was high, but why? because hospitals have to over-charge the insurance company because medical re-imbursement from the Government in reference to medicare and medicaid is low, add to that the amount of people who CHOOSE not to carry insurance, and yes, I said CHOOSE, we have people running around without health insurance because they don't feel like making the monthly payment, yet they don't think twice getting a big screen TV or a new car, and they have the attitude that the government will take care of it, then you can add to that the fact that everyone has to be treated whether they have health insurance or not, and that includes resident aliens as well as illegal aliens.

Too many hospitals have closed in cities because the hospitals are broke because illegals benefit from the system, and yes, illegals are included in the numbers of uninsured.

[PredFan]

What was the bill to the insurance company

I don't know and don't care. That isn't the point.

[PredFan]

No doubt the bill sent to the insurance company was high, but why? because hospitals have to over-charge the insurance company because medical re-imbursement from the Government in reference to medicare and medicaid is low, add to that the amount of people who CHOOSE not to carry insurance, and yes, I said CHOOSE, we have people running around without health insurance because they don't feel like making the monthly payment, yet they don't think twice getting a big screen TV or a new car, and they have the attitude that the government will take care of it, then you can add to that the fact that everyone has to be treated whether they have health insurance or not, and that includes resident aliens as well as illegal aliens.

Too many hospitals have closed in cities because the hospitals are broke because illegals benefit from the system, and yes, illegals are included in the numbers of uninsured.

The bill to the insurance company is a moot point.

I was responding to someone who said how they only had to pay $350 for a broken bone in Canada. The implication was that their system is superior to ours.

The amopunt in taxes that they have to pay, offsets the amount we have to pay for health insurance. So it doesn't matter what the insurance company was billed for. Healthcare in this country is far superior to any other country or their system.

The US government doesn't want to fix healthcare, they want greater and greater power. It's as simple as that.

[janer]

There is primary health care and advanced health care. Primary care would be routine checkups, inoculations, simple procedures like sutures or setting a bone. It is easier to "stopgap" a decline in physicians practicing primary care (and there is a decline due to very poor reimbursement) by substituting nurse practitioners, salaried hospitalists or interns and residents on a clinical rotation.
However, when you are talking about advanced medical care - surgery, oncology, orthopedics - where there is a very long training period, higher cost of practice (due to very high malpractice premiums), higher risk patient - that is where socialized medicine has a harder time filling the gap - the very talented prospect cannot justify spending a dozen or more years in training for what he/she considers to be inadequate compensation, or unacceptable risk. So you will either see fewer good practitioners, or an equal number of practitioners of lesser skill.

[DRS]

The bill to the insurance company is a moot point.

I was responding to someone who said how they only had to pay $350 for a broken bone in Canada. The implication was that their system is superior to ours.

The amopunt in taxes that they have to pay, offsets the amount we have to pay for health insurance. So it doesn't matter what the insurance company was billed for. Healthcare in this country is far superior to any other country or their system.

The US government doesn't want to fix healthcare, they want greater and greater power. It's as simple as that.

The amount I pay in taxes does not compare to what I would have to pay to get the same coverage in the US

[DRS]

No doubt the bill sent to the insurance company was high, but why? because hospitals have to over-charge the insurance company because medical re-imbursement from the Government in reference to medicare and medicaid is low, add to that the amount of people who CHOOSE not to carry insurance, and yes, I said CHOOSE, we have people running around without health insurance because they don't feel like making the monthly payment, yet they don't think twice getting a big screen TV or a new car, and they have the attitude that the government will take care of it, then you can add to that the fact that everyone has to be treated whether they have health insurance or not, and that includes resident aliens as well as illegal aliens.

Too many hospitals have closed in cities because the hospitals are broke because illegals benefit from the system, and yes, illegals are included in the numbers of uninsured.
The amount paid above is the amount the government would pay for that treatment, what often happens in the US and to US citizens that get hurt is doctors raise the amount they bill hoping to make more

Years ago a girlfriend of mine was visiting with her kids and her daughter got hurt there was a bill from the hospital and another from the doctor, which was 5 times what the hopsital charged

His hope was she had insurance and they would pay it

[Ballygrl]

The amount paid above is the amount the government would pay for that treatment, what often happens in the US and to US citizens that get hurt is doctors raise the amount they bill hoping to make more

Years ago a girlfriend of mine was visiting with her kids and her daughter got hurt there was a bill from the hospital and another from the doctor, which was 5 times what the hopsital charged

His hope was she had insurance and they would pay it

The Government hardly pays anything, that's the problem. The Government mandates that everyone be treated whether they have insurance or not, you try billing the Government for someone who doesn't have insurance and no means to pay it and the Government gives very little back as re-imbursement or nothing at all, the hospitals have a choice, either over-bill other insurance companies or close down, and a lot are choosing to close down. Medicare was a joke years ago, we would bill then next thing you know the claim was denied because something wasn't filled in and it obviously was on the HCVA, so we'd send it back and the same thing would happen again, Medicare was trying to get to the 3 month point at that time because after 3 months Medicare didn't have to pay.

Also people seem to think that socialized medicine equals equality, well it doesn't, people with money in Great Britain and Canada etc. have options, they can choose to pay for themselves and they don't have the wait for Doctors, testing etc. There are private clinics opening up weekly in Canada for people who can pay, at the time the Government of Canada was fighting these private clinics opening up and the Doctors were fighting the Government and the case was in the Supreme Court. I don't think a decision has come down on that yet.

You have Great Britain whose population is what? 1/5 of our population, and the cost was overwhelming that they were out-sourcing medical care to India, it's cheaper to fly citizens to India for some surgery then to do it in their own Country. Cuba is a 2 tiered system too, Government officials have a much better system then the ordinary citizen, and as we saw, Castro went to Spain for treatment, so there goes that theory that Cuba is better. We have Canadians that can afford it, they come to the US for treatment, I personally know of a woman who decided to be treated at the Mayo Clinic instead of going through the Canadian system.

We need competition as far as insurance companies go, we don't need the Government involved in something like this. The Government stinks when it comes to matters dealing with money. People think socialized medicine is going to be free but it'll cost us much more in the long run. Americans are spoiled, they call a Doctors office and expect an appt. the same day or within a day or two, good luck with that under socialized medicine, you need an x-ray or ct scan? be prepared to wait at least a month, you need to see a specialist? be prepared to wait many months.

[newfoundlander]

To the DRS. You need to understand that in rural and isolated communities health care mostly sucks. It's not just me. Everyone living in these isolated communities are at risk because we sent our wealth to central areas of the country. Without the resourse wealth of small isolated communities you're life in central areas would suffer because you cannot steal anymore. People who live and work in the mining, fishery, oil, lumber, and other resourse industries that are paying your medical costs. Maybe you should move here and develop a personality for yourself.

[newfoundlander]

For how long was NF the aids capital of Canada?

Alcoholism was also a problem

Education is a problem also out there
You need to educate yourself.
I've lived in Ontario. Have you lived in Newfoundland. Ontario has many more social problems.

[newfoundlander]

I hope everone in the U.S. can plainly see how ignorant people in central areas of a country allow themselves to get. I wrote of health care, and a person fron Ontario feels thretened because they want free health care off of someone else's work. This person then brought up aids, and welfare, and tries to make my people look bad. How ignorant you are DRS.

[johnrocks]

, newfoundlander, don't let anyone get to you here, it's a good way to get banned and besides, it seems you and I may have a mutual distain for socialism.

[newfoundlander]

You need to educate yourself.
I've lived in Ontario. Have you lived in Newfoundland. Ontario has many more social problems. The average miner in my community gives approx. $40,000, in income tax in a year, I bet you don't.

[newfoundlander]

, newfoundlander, don't let anyone get to you here, it's a good way to get banned and besides, it seems you and I may have a mutual distain for socialism.
Thanks. However making negative ignorant comments about someone's race should get DRS kicked off.

[newfoundlander]

The amount paid above is the amount the government would pay for that treatment, what often happens in the US and to US citizens that get hurt is doctors raise the amount they bill hoping to make more

Years ago a girlfriend of mine was visiting with her kids and her daughter got hurt there was a bill from the hospital and another from the doctor, which was 5 times what the hopsital charged

His hope was she had insurance and they would pay it
We have a trillion doller debt between our federal government and all of the provinces combined for a country 1/10 the population of the U.S. That is what socialized health care has given us. Hopefully the unoins in Ontario won't steel our tax dollers. That is what they want. If government caves to their demands, the government WILL give them more welfare, and they WILL know what it is like to experience extreme solial problems.

[DRS]

To the DRS. You need to understand that in rural and isolated communities health care mostly sucks. It's not just me. Everyone living in these isolated communities are at risk because we sent our wealth to central areas of the country. Without the resourse wealth of small isolated communities you're life in central areas would suffer because you cannot steal anymore. People who live and work in the mining, fishery, oil, lumber, and other resourse industries that are paying your medical costs. Maybe you should move here and develop a personality for yourself.

I've been to NF and lived for a while in northern Alberta, investing into rural areas does not make much sense for the government, now if there is so much wealth as you say they you should be able to raise the fund through private donations like hospitals due and get equipment that attracts better doctors instead of whining

[DRS]

We have a trillion doller debt between our federal government and all of the provinces combined for a country 1/10 the population of the U.S. That is what socialized health care has given us. Hopefully the unoins in Ontario won't steel our tax dollers. That is what they want. If government caves to their demands, the government WILL give them more welfare, and they WILL know what it is like to experience extreme solial problems.

The unions in ON are you kidding me, NF for years was recieving welfare like it was water, maybe some more money in education would be a good idea so someone besides Danny boy is educated in the province

[DRS]

You need to educate yourself.
I've lived in Ontario. Have you lived in Newfoundland. Ontario has many more social problems.

The problem is starting to have is the welfare mindset that was held out east for many years

[DRS]

The average miner in my community gives approx. $40,000, in income tax in a year, I bet you don't.

In order to be paying that much, you have to be grossing over six figures, which then means you are probably a union mine worker, which raises the question why if there is all this money being made there why you are not privately raiseing capital to improve the things like the hospital maybe even going for improvements in the community through labour deals

[newfoundlander]

The problem is starting to have is the welfare mindset that was held out east for many years
Ther is a problem in certain communities, but it is largely exaggerated. In NF we have a population of 500,000. We have Iron ore mines producing 30 million tonnes of ore a year. We have a viable lumber industry, seal and fishery industry, hydro-electric, off shore oil (Hibernia and White Rose) industry. North York has a population of approx 500 000 people...and what do they produce?

[DRS]

The Government hardly pays anything, that's the problem. The Government mandates that everyone be treated whether they have insurance or not, you try billing the Government for someone who doesn't have insurance and no means to pay it and the Government gives very little back as re-imbursement or nothing at all, the hospitals have a choice, either over-bill other insurance companies or close down, and a lot are choosing to close down. Medicare was a joke years ago, we would bill then next thing you know the claim was denied because something wasn't filled in and it obviously was on the HCVA, so we'd send it back and the same thing would happen again, Medicare was trying to get to the 3 month point at that time because after 3 months Medicare didn't have to pay.

Also people seem to think that socialized medicine equals equality, well it doesn't, people with money in Great Britain and Canada etc. have options, they can choose to pay for themselves and they don't have the wait for Doctors, testing etc. There are private clinics opening up weekly in Canada for people who can pay, at the time the Government of Canada was fighting these private clinics opening up and the Doctors were fighting the Government and the case was in the Supreme Court. I don't think a decision has come down on that yet.

You have Great Britain whose population is what? 1/5 of our population, and the cost was overwhelming that they were out-sourcing medical care to India, it's cheaper to fly citizens to India for some surgery then to do it in their own Country. Cuba is a 2 tiered system too, Government officials have a much better system then the ordinary citizen, and as we saw, Castro went to Spain for treatment, so there goes that theory that Cuba is better. We have Canadians that can afford it, they come to the US for treatment, I personally know of a woman who decided to be treated at the Mayo Clinic instead of going through the Canadian system.

We need competition as far as insurance companies go, we don't need the Government involved in something like this. The Government stinks when it comes to matters dealing with money. People think socialized medicine is going to be free but it'll cost us much more in the long run. Americans are spoiled, they call a Doctors office and expect an appt. the same day or within a day or two, good luck with that under socialized medicine, you need an x-ray or ct scan? be prepared to wait at least a month, you need to see a specialist? be prepared to wait many months.

In Canada you can open a clinic but you have to accept government payment

The two problems with the Candian system are misuse of the system and people who feel they are the only sick person in the country when something happens

When I was being treated for cancer there were a bunch of us waiting to go in and get tests done and one guy who was freaking out like he was the only person in the room with cancer

[newfoundlander]

In order to be paying that much, you have to be grossing over six figures, which then means you are probably a union mine worker, which raises the question why if there is all this money being made there why you are not privately raiseing capital to improve the things like the hospital maybe even going for improvements in the community through labour deals
We do raise money. We give more money than anyone else in this country per person I'll garantee you that. We pay more taxes and we work harder than most. We put ourselves in a certain area to make the money and spread the wealth through spending. And yes, most of my co-workers do make 6 figures. Thank you very much.

[johnrocks]

Where is Kelowna at?

Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FLAC.20 080408.BCHEALTH08%2FTPStory%2FNational&ord=47372355&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

Why Ontario keeps sending patients south
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM. 20080301.wheart01%2FBNStory%2FNational%2Fhome&ord=108782161&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
Compared to 1993, wait times in 2007 are 97 per cent longer, report finds
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/10/15/fraser-report.html

[DRS]

Ther is a problem in certain communities, but it is largely exaggerated. In NF we have a population of 500,000. We have Iron ore mines producing 30 million tonnes of ore a year. We have a viable lumber industry, seal and fishery industry, hydro-electric, off shore oil (Hibernia and White Rose) industry. North York has a population of approx 500 000 people...and what do they produce?

The toronto area is to Canada like new york is to the states, it is where stocks are trade banks headquarter and investment is gathered for projects like the ones out east

And North York is close to lake Ontario which is used for generating power

[DRS]

Where is Kelowna at?

Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FLAC.20 080408.BCHEALTH08%2FTPStory%2FNational&ord=47372355&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

Why Ontario keeps sending patients south
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM. 20080301.wheart01%2FBNStory%2FNational%2Fhome&ord=108782161&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
Compared to 1993, wait times in 2007 are 97 per cent longer, report finds
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/10/15/fraser-report.html


Try todays news

http://www.canada.com/Wait+times+shorter+some+medical+procedures+report/1528971/story.html

[johnrocks]

Get over it, the rural areas and the cities need each other. I've yet to see a banker that raised his own beef and I know several from rural areas that go to cities for specialists, financial advice and yes, even to work in those banks and other institutions.

[DRS]

We do raise money. We give more money than anyone else in this country per person I'll garantee you that. We pay more taxes and we work harder than most. We put ourselves in a certain area to make the money and spread the wealth through spending. And yes, most of my co-workers do make 6 figures. Thank you very much.

So why not do the same thing Ontario hospitals do and raise private funds to upgrade equipment and facilities and attract better doctors

[DRS]

Get over it, the rural areas and the cities need each other. I've yet to see a banker that raised his own beef and I know several from rural areas that go to cities for specialists, financial advice and yes, even to work in those banks and other institutions.

One of things they are doing in many areas to cut cost is sending people from rural areas to cities to be treated, or if they are in a rural border town they will pay for them to the US

I drive an hour to go see either one of my oncologists, it is not that big a deal

[johnrocks]

Try todays news

http://www.canada.com/Wait+times+shorter+some+medical+procedures+report/1528971/story.html

From that article.

The data shows 75 per cent of patients received a hip replacement within the 26-week benchmark:eek: in Newfoundland and Labrador, Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Alberta and B.C.

However, the report found wait times for knee replacements appear to be longer.:silenced:

[johnrocks]

And 26 weeks is considered a "benchmark",lol.

[DRS]

From that article.

The data shows 75 per cent of patients received a hip replacement within the 26-week benchmark:eek: in Newfoundland and Labrador, Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Alberta and B.C.

However, the report found wait times for knee replacements appear to be longer.:silenced:

So four month wait for an elective surgery at no cost to the patient for one that costs

For patients without health insurance, a total knee replacement can cost $35,000 or more. However, some medical facilities offer uninsured discounts. At the Tulane University Hospital and Clinic, an uninsured patient would pay a discounted price between $29,335 and $34,050. And at the Kapiolani Medical Center in Aiea, Hawaii, where the full price is about $33,000, an uninsured patient would pay a discounted rate of $20,212 to $23,581.
http://www.costhelper.com/cost/health/knee-replacement.html

[johnrocks]

So four month wait for an elective surgery at no cost to the patient for one that costs

For patients without health insurance, a total knee replacement can cost $35,000 or more. However, some medical facilities offer uninsured discounts. At the Tulane University Hospital and Clinic, an uninsured patient would pay a discounted price between $29,335 and $34,050. And at the Kapiolani Medical Center in Aiea, Hawaii, where the full price is about $33,000, an uninsured patient would pay a discounted rate of $20,212 to $23,581.
http://www.costhelper.com/cost/health/knee-replacement.html

Sure it costs, tax freedom day in Canada is like in June which means you work half the year for things like "free" health care. I was in Bellingham Washington a few years ago and was told how people from Canada flooded that area for cheaper gas,cheaper groceries and yes health care, of course this was prior to all the enhanced border security so I don't know about now but I have bad knees, I've had surgery and believe me, when your in pain like that or a hip, which is excruciating pain from what I've heard, you don't want to wait 6 months!

[Ballygrl]

So four month wait for an elective surgery at no cost to the patient for one that costs

For patients without health insurance, a total knee replacement can cost $35,000 or more. However, some medical facilities offer uninsured discounts. At the Tulane University Hospital and Clinic, an uninsured patient would pay a discounted price between $29,335 and $34,050. And at the Kapiolani Medical Center in Aiea, Hawaii, where the full price is about $33,000, an uninsured patient would pay a discounted rate of $20,212 to $23,581.
http://www.costhelper.com/cost/health/knee-replacement.html

4 months is a long time to someone who has pain, and the chances of exacerbating the problem are high, also not brought up is the fact that heart bypass surgery can take up to a year and a half in Canada whereas in the US it would be done the same day or within days.

[newfoundlander]

[quote=johnrocks;53410741]Sure it costs, tax freedom day in Canada is like in June which means you work half the year for things like "free" health care. I was in Bellingham Washington a few years ago and was told how people from Canada flooded that area for cheaper gas,cheaper groceries and yes health care, of course this was prior to all the enhanced border security so I don't know about now but I have bad knees, I've had surgery and believe me, when your in pain like that or a hip, which is excruciating pain from what I've heard, you don't want to wait 6 months!
Exactly!

[newfoundlander]

One of things they are doing in many areas to cut cost is sending people from rural areas to cities to be treated, or if they are in a rural border town they will pay for them to the US

I drive an hour to go see either one of my oncologists, it is not that big a deal
It is a big deal when an 8 hour drive gets you to the next town.

[newfoundlander]

So why not do the same thing Ontario hospitals do and raise private funds to upgrade equipment and facilities and attract better doctors
We do. Our health facilities are in disrepair because government are stealing a significant portion of our wealth. It is funny how conservatives have to justify communities earning and keeping their own wealth, but liberals don't seem to want to justify stealing it.

[newfoundlander]

The toronto area is to Canada like new york is to the states, it is where stocks are trade banks headquarter and investment is gathered for projects like the ones out east

And North York is close to lake Ontario which is used for generating power
How big is North York's farming industry. Newfoundlanders and natives built both Toronto an New York City. Thousands of us. We are still building You're cities. There are not too many from central Canada building our industries.

[Ballygrl]

It is a big deal when an 8 hour drive gets you to the next town.

Exactly!

And DRS, please call around Ontario and see how many PET Scan machines the entire province has.

[jimjames418]

4 months is a long time to someone who has pain, and the chances of exacerbating the problem are high, also not brought up is the fact that heart bypass surgery can take up to a year and a half in Canada whereas in the US it would be done the same day or within days.
Bill Clinton was told at 10 o'clock in the morning that he needed by-pass surgery and it was performed at 4 o'clock that afternoon. Good thing he wasn't in Canada. :D

My sister needed hip replacement surgery and from the time she decided to go for it, and the surgery was 10 days. And it only took that long because they had to do tests on her to determine the size and other things about the replacement hip.

[PredFan]

The amount I pay in taxes does not compare to what I would have to pay to get the same coverage in the US

I don't have the numbers, and don't know where to get them but I'll bet you're wrong on that score.

[PredFan]

Newfoundlander's experiences mimic the hundreds of stories I've heard from Canadians, and Englishmen that I have had come to this hospital in America for treatment. These are actual people whom I have treated and spoken with. We have two nurses here and one doctor who are naturalized citizens who immigrated from Great Britain. The stories they could tell you will frighten you.

The only people whom I've ever heard of that say anything good about socialized medicine are liberals and are not sick.

No amount of spin from the left is going to turn a lie into truth.

[Ballygrl]

Bill Clinton was told at 10 o'clock in the morning that he needed by-pass surgery and it was performed at 4 o'clock that afternoon. Good thing he wasn't in Canada. :D

My sister needed hip replacement surgery and from the time she decided to go for it, and the surgery was 10 days. And it only took that long because they had to do tests on her to determine the size and other things about the replacement hip.

I had surgery last year and the surgeon said it wasn't urgent to have it done right now but all he needed was 3 weeks notice. I talk on a regular basis with people around the world going through the surgery I had, 1 person from Great Britain waited 18 months for the surgery, people from Australia wait minimum 4 months and Canada is a minimum of 2 months. We all had rare tumors, the majority benign, but there's a 20% chance they could be malignant, and if it's an aggressive malignancy, treatment is urgent, the thing though is this, you don't know 100% until the tumor is out.

[Gabby]

To the DRS. You need to understand that in rural and isolated communities health care mostly sucks. It's not just me. Everyone living in these isolated communities are at risk because we sent our wealth to central areas of the country. Without the resourse wealth of small isolated communities you're life in central areas would suffer because you cannot steal anymore. People who live and work in the mining, fishery, oil, lumber, and other resourse industries that are paying your medical costs. Maybe you should move here and develop a personality for yourself.

I have been told by Canadians that they have to pay a monthy premium for their health care. Is the the case? If so how much does it cost per person?

I've also been told that the care does not include prescription drugs nor catastrophic care. Is this correct?

[Gabby]

Health care in Canada is funded and delivered through a publicly-funded health care system, with most services provided by private entities.[1]

Health care spending in Canada is projected to reach $160 billion, or 10.6% of GDP, in 2007. This is slightly above the average for OECD countries. In Canada, the various levels of government pay for about 70% of Canadians' health care costs, which is slightly below the OECD average. Under the terms of the Canada Health Act, the publicly funded insurance plans are required to pay for medically necessary care, but only if it is delivered in hospitals or by physicians. There is considerable variation across the provinces/territories as to the extent to which such costs as outpatient prescription drugs, physical therapy, long-term care, home care, dental care and even ambulance services are covered. [2]


Health care in Canada is funded and delivered through a publicly-funded health care system, with most services provided by private entities.[1]

Health care spending in Canada is projected to reach $160 billion, or 10.6% of GDP, in 2007. This is slightly above the average for OECD countries. In Canada, the various levels of government pay for about 70% of Canadians' health care costs, which is slightly below the OECD average. Under the terms of the Canada Health Act, the publicly funded insurance plans are required to pay for medically necessary care, but only if it is delivered in hospitals or by physicians. There is considerable variation across the provinces/territories as to the extent to which such costs as outpatient prescription drugs, physical therapy, long-term care, home care, dental care and even ambulance services are covered.[2]


...................


About 30% of Canadians' health care is paid for through the private sector. This mostly goes towards services not covered or only partially covered by Medicare, such as prescription drugs, dentistry and optometry. Some 65% of Canadians have some form of supplementary private health insurance; many of them receive it through their employers.[14] There are also large private entities that can buy priority access to medical services in Canada, such as WCB in BC.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

[Gabby]

based on the above article... it does not sound like Canadian health care is 'free' at all.

Canadians all pay for it via taxes... it's not 'free'

The 'free' coverage does not cover many things.

The gov 'free' insurance only covers 70% of the cost... so it sounds like they have a 30% co pay...

They have to buy suplimental insurance.

[PredFan]

Everywhere you look, when you get past the BS, you will find out that Socialized Medicine is an unmitigated disaster.

[DRS]

Exactly!

And DRS, please call around Ontario and see how many PET Scan machines the entire province has.

Yeah I will get right on that as I have nothing better to do today

[DRS]

I don't have the numbers, and don't know where to get them but I'll bet you're wrong on that score.

I willing to take that bet

The other thing that is nice is I can not be denied for any pre existing conditions here

And if you do find something cheap the co pay and the deductable will also offset and savings and finding doctors in that program

[DRS]

based on the above article... it does not sound like Canadian health care is 'free' at all.

Canadians all pay for it via taxes... it's not 'free'

The 'free' coverage does not cover many things.

The gov 'free' insurance only covers 70% of the cost... so it sounds like they have a 30% co pay...

They have to buy suplimental insurance.

No there is no copay, there are some services not covered but some of those are looking to expand more into as it actually saves them money, for example home care

When we had the Conservatives here in Ontario they covered more as they knew it was cheaper to maintain good health then it was to fix someone after they got worse

[DRS]

Bill Clinton was told at 10 o'clock in the morning that he needed by-pass surgery and it was performed at 4 o'clock that afternoon. Good thing he wasn't in Canada. :D



It does not matter what country you are in, when you are the top dog you get treated faster

[DRS]

Newfoundlander's experiences mimic the hundreds of stories I've heard from Canadians, and Englishmen that I have had come to this hospital in America for treatment. These are actual people whom I have treated and spoken with. We have two nurses here and one doctor who are naturalized citizens who immigrated from Great Britain. The stories they could tell you will frighten you.

The only people whom I've ever heard of that say anything good about socialized medicine are liberals and are not sick.

No amount of spin from the left is going to turn a lie into truth.


Hate to tell you this but one not a liberal two I have been treated for two forms of cancer, including surgeries and radiation and chemo I also had temporal lobe epilepsy which I had surgery for .

[Ballygrl]

Yeah I will get right on that as I have nothing better to do today

The point is, a patient at our board from Ontario had to travel hours to have a PET Scan and it was available at only 1 facility in Toronto, she said only 1, I have within a half hour of my home 6 Hospitals all equipped with a PET Scan machine, and all the latest technology.

[DRS]

The point is, a patient at our board from Ontario had to travel hours to have a PET Scan and it was available at only 1 facility in Toronto, she said only 1, I have within a half hour of my home 6 Hospitals all equipped with a PET Scan machine, and all the latest technology.

I have already found more than 3 just using google in fact Ontaio has ten hospital based ones

[King Cantona]

In 1993 I was recuperating after a bad accident in the US, while I was there there was a very nice old man who came to visit his wife every day, his wife had Alzheimers. This was the first time I had seen this disease at close quarters, it was truly heartbreaking, here was a hard working man who had built up what he had (he had paid off the mortage on his house) and was intending to leave it to their only son...

His wife liked it when she saw him, he always made the effort to smile for her and this was the side of him that she remembered. But I saw him steeling himself before he went in to see her, his wife only remembered him as a nice friendly face but she had no idea that they had been happily married for 40 years...

I saw that man who had worked all his life break down and cry his eyes out on many occasions, my brother came over and he stayed with me for the three months that I was in hospital in the US. My brother and the old man and his son became friends and he used to give them a lift home sometimes, my brother talked often with them (I was unable to talk because of my accident)...

Anyway with the US healthcare system your insurance can run out and this happened in this case, this nice old man was told by his insurance company that he could live in the house until he died but that he would not then have the chance to leave the house to his son...

They were then going to take his house in lieu of payment, the son's heritage is no more. Say what you want about the British system but this would never EVER happen anywhere in Britain...

[AugustGem]

In 1993 I was recuperating after a bad accident in the US, while I was there there was a very nice old man who came to visit his wife every day, his wife had Alzheimers. This was the first time I had seen this disease at close quarters, it was truly heartbreaking, here was a hard working man who had built up what he had (he had paid off the mortage on his house) and was intending to leave it to their only son...

His wife liked it when she saw him, he always made the effort to smile for her and this was the side of him that she remembered. But I saw him steeling himself before he went in to see her, his wife only remembered him as a nice friendly face but she had no idea that they had been happily married for 40 years...

I saw that man who had worked all his life break down and cry his eyes out on many occasions, my brother came over and he stayed with me for the three months that I was in hospital in the US. My brother and the old man and his son became friends and he used to give them a lift home sometimes, my brother talked often with them (I was unable to talk because of my accident)...

Anyway with the US healthcare system your insurance can run out and this happened in this case, this nice old man was told by his insurance company that he could live in the house until he died but that he would not then have the chance to leave the house to his son...

They were then going to take his house in lieu of payment, the son's heritage is no more. Say what you want about the British system but this would never EVER happen anywhere in Britain...

An insurance company cannot take a persons house :rolleyes: The story makes no sense to anyone with insurance. Can a lien be put on his house? Yes. By the hospital, possibly. The gov't if they take over the payment of care, sure. An insurance company that has "run out" nope

[King Cantona]

An insurance company cannot take a persons house :rolleyes: The story makes no sense to anyone with insurance. Can a lien be put on his house? Yes. By the hospital, possibly. The gov't if they take over the payment of care, sure. An insurance company that has "run out" nope

Well I can only go by what I remember and that is that the guy lost his house due to the American healthcare system, I have no quarrel with the level of care I received but a system that punishes an old man because he had the appalling bad luck to fall in love with someone who subsequently got Alzheimers??..

My point is simply that this could never happen in a country with 'Socialised Medicine' and this thread has the title "the evils of socialised health care"...

Well I think I've just highlighted the evils of Private Healthcare...........

[newfoundlander]

Well I can only go by what I remember and that is that the guy lost his house due to the American healthcare system, I have no quarrel with the level of care I received but a system that punishes an old man because he had the appalling bad luck to fall in love with someone who subsequently got Alzheimers??..

My point is simply that this could never happen in a country with 'Socialised Medicine' and this thread has the title "the evils of socialised health care"...

Well I think I've just highlighted the evils of Private Healthcare...........
Writing in generalities, I believe it would be better to loose you're home rather than you're life. In a socialized country, a hard working individual usually has to wait longer for surgery. So be happy for someone who lives instead of pity. Look at the big picture.
We have 4.2 million Canadians without a family doctor, and no RIGHTS to have one. We are short of nurses and doctors. Tens of thousands. Real people are suffering because of little or no access. In many rural areas health care is falling apart. BEWARE AMERICANS. You are the last bastion of freedom.
LONG LIVE AMERICA.

[newfoundlander]

I have already found more than 3 just using google in fact Ontaio has ten hospital based ones
The people in my community have pay $1400 to fly to the nearest hospital for that service. Good thing us dumb uneducated rural folk can pay your bill for you.

[newfoundlander]

I have been told by Canadians that they have to pay a monthy premium for their health care. Is the the case? If so how much does it cost per person?

I've also been told that the care does not include prescription drugs nor catastrophic care. Is this correct?
It does not include prescription drugs. Many people are covered through their employer in my community. Province by province there are differences because the province actually administers the care and spending. The federal govt. contributes about 20% of costs to the provinces. This is just a tax grab. The federal govt. have no rights in the health care industry as far as I'm concerned. Even if you are a socialist it makes no sense. Fight your own province for socialized care and keeps our own federal taxes.
I do not pay a premium. I am not sure about other provinces. It is not my business. Only if Liberals couls mind theirs.

[newfoundlander]

Hate to tell you this but one not a liberal two I have been treated for two forms of cancer, including surgeries and radiation and chemo I also had temporal lobe epilepsy which I had surgery for .
Good for you, and GOD BLESS YOU.

[AugustGem]

Well I can only go by what I remember and that is that the guy lost his house due to the American healthcare system, I have no quarrel with the level of care I received but a system that punishes an old man because he had the appalling bad luck to fall in love with someone who subsequently got Alzheimers??..

My point is simply that this could never happen in a country with 'Socialised Medicine' and this thread has the title "the evils of socialised health care"...

Well I think I've just highlighted the evils of Private Healthcare...........


I don't think it's "evil" personally. I have been without insurance, never been denied treatment. A charity took up my bill (not the govt) I've had insurance for the last 10 years (Thank God) My sister lost her job, had a baby with no insurance, was treated just as well as the insured. However, she will pay for it in installments (they are charging her the same as they would for medicaid) With the amount of people in the US it just won't work. The UK has done a lot to improve the system (as far as I can tell from programs I watch from over there and from friends and family) What I guess we aren't used to is not the day to day doctor appointments but when there are major surgeries needed. Elective surgery.... Hip replacement, gallbladder, etc. To me... elective doesn't seem like the right word. Putting someone on morphine for 6 months with a gallbladder that needs to be taken out (my friend in Canada) is nuts. My aunt in Ireland had her diverticulitis act up. My uncle flew here to get her a strong prescription to get her the heck out of a ward of 40 people sharing 1 bathroom! If I was in pain, I wouldn't want a roomate (but you do get stuck with 1 or 2 here) I would freak out with 10 or more. My friend in Scotland had 10! His treatment reminded me of the VA hospitals here (crap) kept giving him pills at his GP, sending him home. He finally was rushed into the hospital with a severe infection. In a ward with 10 people! He didn't complain, he actually bragged how lucky he felt not to be crowded with a bunch of sick people!!!

Happy medium, I can get behind that

[King Cantona]

Writing in generalities, I believe it would be better to loose you're home rather than you're life. In a socialized country, a hard working individual usually has to wait longer for surgery. So be happy for someone who lives instead of pity. Look at the big picture.
We have 4.2 million Canadians without a family doctor, and no RIGHTS to have one. We are short of nurses and doctors. Tens of thousands. Real people are suffering because of little or no access. In many rural areas health care is falling apart. BEWARE AMERICANS. You are the last bastion of freedom.
LONG LIVE AMERICA.

I couldn't disagree more, speaking in generalities? No I think you are speaking as if the worst case scenario in Socialised Medicine is the norm, yes there are many horror stories about how Socialised Healthcare has failed its patients but I have heard even more stories about how private healthcare has failed its patients...

And by the way if the surgery is urgent of course you don't have to wait....

[King Cantona]

If I was in pain, I wouldn't want a roomate (but you do get stuck with 1 or 2 here) I would freak out with 10 or more. My friend in Scotland had 10! His treatment reminded me of the VA hospitals here (crap) kept giving him pills at his GP, sending him home. He finally was rushed into the hospital with a severe infection. In a ward with 10 people! He didn't complain, he actually bragged how lucky he felt not to be crowded with a bunch of sick people!!!

After my accident in the US I returned to the UK and I was in a ward with some people who would shout at the top of their voice every few minutes, now this was bloody annoying but I only had to endure that for a couple of nights...

Then I was moved to another room where I had just one room mate but most people would be able to handle this, human beings are naturally gregarious so one other person in the room is nice...

[Darkwind]

You have a bad experience of socialised medicine and you completely decry it, well I live in England and the best thing that ever happened was that healthcare is available to everyone....

Of course there are things you can decry about it but I have seen the American healthcare system at first hand and I think the British system is better...

That's just one man's opinion...Yes. that IS one mans opinion.

[Darkwind]

I've been to NF and lived for a while in northern Alberta, investing into rural areas does not make much sense for the government, now if there is so much wealth as you say they you should be able to raise the fund through private donations like hospitals due and get equipment that attracts better doctors instead of whiningWow.

You just made the best case for why nationalized healthcare is the worst care found in the entire universe.

:))

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

I am from the province of newfoundland, in Canada. I live in Labrador City and we are a mining town. We pay more income tax per person than any other community in my province. Meanwhile we have the worst health care in the province. We are hard working people but yet our people suffer because the government drains our wealth, and gives us garbage in return. It is disgraceful.

Do not allow government to control your health care, or you will regret it. They WILL jack up your federal debt, and you WILL be controlled. BEWARE.Your Federal rate is lower than ours.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2007/fin/0426n06.htm

And it appears your provincial tax rate was cut another percent since that '07 press release.

[DRS]

The people in my community have pay $1400 to fly to the nearest hospital for that service. Good thing us dumb uneducated rural folk can pay your bill for you.

You don't pay that bill for me as I never had one, there also 3 private clinic offering Pet scans in the Toronto area

Now why are there no private clinics you way, may it be that the private clinic like the public funded ones have seen that the poplutation base there is to small to support one?

If you do not like the community services living in a rural area move or do what others in your area do and cry because Labadour west gets better servicce due to political connections

Rural areas get the same care no matter where you are in Canada I know I haved in rural areas in Ontario and Alberta

[King Cantona]

Yes. that IS one mans opinion.

Yes, when you post on the internet, that's generally your opinion and as I am one person it is my opinion.........

Funny how that works.......;).......

[DRS]

Wow.

You just made the best case for why nationalized healthcare is the worst care found in the entire universe.

:))

Yes because it is so much better to lose you house and lifesaving because you get a disease you could do nothing about

[King Cantona]

Wow.

You just made the best case for why nationalized healthcare is the worst care found in the entire universe.

:))

Except it isn't.......

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Yes because it is so much better to lose you house and lifesaving because you get a disease you could do nothing about
I've seen this happen countless times. My heart breaks for these folks.

[DRS]

Writing in generalities, I believe it would be better to loose you're home rather than you're life. In a socialized country, a hard working individual usually has to wait longer for surgery. So be happy for someone who lives instead of pity. Look at the big picture.
We have 4.2 million Canadians without a family doctor, and no RIGHTS to have one. We are short of nurses and doctors. Tens of thousands. Real people are suffering because of little or no access. In many rural areas health care is falling apart. BEWARE AMERICANS. You are the last bastion of freedom.
LONG LIVE AMERICA.

How many people are without doctors because they choose to be, utiliazing walk in clinics and emergency rooms instead of seeing a GP driving up healthcare costs

[King Cantona]

Yes because it is so much better to lose you house and lifesaving because you get a disease you could do nothing about

Yes the case I mentioned earlier could have happened to anyone, well if you want to get married now I guess the investment in screening to find if your potential wife is susceptible to alzheimers may be worth considering...

But with universal healthcare no problem........What will be will be......

Being born with a susceptibility to any illness is something that's out of your control so why be penalised for it?.......

[DRS]

I think what people fear is being treated by first come first serve and who is the sickest instead of who is the richest

[delaware moo]

socialism works great in sweden, free health care,free schooling and beautiful women !!

i hope america follows thier lead.

americas can do anything, stay positive and avoid the nay sayers!! we can do it !!

[jimjames418]

socialism works great in sweden, free health care,free schooling and beautiful women !!

i hope america follows thier lead.

americas can do anything, stay positive and avoid the nay sayers!! we can do it !!
Health care in Sweden sucks.

A friend of mine and his wife flew to Sweden because her family comes from there. Getting off the airplane she slipped and broke her hip. This was on a Saturday evening. They put her on a strecher in the first aid room and started an IV. No doctors were available to treat her so, eight hours later, my friend asked if there was any way he could pay a doctor to come treat her. He was assrested, because going outside the medical care system is against the law.

Long story short, he paid a $100,000 fine, called England and hired a private jet to come pick him and his wife up and take her to Germany to the hospital. The lawyers told him he could maybe get his $100,000 back, but it would cost him $25,000 in legal fees and he would have to get the U.S. government to sign off on his law suit. And there was no guarteent he would get the $100,000 back. :evil:

[delaware moo]

i dont believe your "story".
but you get points for imagination.

[Getty Girl]

You have a bad experience of socialised medicine and you completely decry it, well I live in England and the best thing that ever happened was that healthcare is available to everyone....

Of course there are things you can decry about it but I have seen the American healthcare system at first hand and I think the British system is better...

That's just one man's opinion...

that's funny because i lived in the UK for 10 years and participated in your national health system - it SUCKS.

[Getty Girl]

socialism works great in sweden, free health care,free schooling and beautiful women !!

i hope america follows thier lead.



I guess its a dream come true for the slacker class:

http://www.thelocal.se/17964/20090303/

As taxes have risen, so has welfare dependency. In 1970, around 11 percent of the adult population of Sweden was living off various forms of public handouts rather than work. In the summer of 2006 this figure had doubled to 22-23 percent. It is of course important to have public safety nets, but the high dependency on handouts is draining public resources. This is why Sweden has higher taxes than other modern nations but cannot offer higher pensions.

In fact, a comparison with other industrialised countries shows that Swedish senior citizens receive an average level of pensions. The average pension income is 14,000 kronor ($1,500) per month in Sweden, compared to 18,500 kronor per month in Austria and 17,700 kronor per month in the Netherlands.

Another problem arising from high welfare dependency is that norms associated with work and responsibility have deteriorated in Sweden. It has today become socially acceptable for people to receive government sick leave payments despite being capable of working. And norms are deteriorating most among young people.

The number of Swedes on sick leave is astonishingly high in international comparisons. Swedes eat right, exercise and are amongst the healthiest people in the world. When we see people in their twenties going into early retirement it is part of a phenomenon whereby society attempts to hide true unemployment and many people don’t mind living off social benefits.

There are many reasons to cut Sweden's taxes: to encourage entrepreneurship and work, to reduce welfare dependency and to create a system more focused on the core functions of the welfare state. The government has already reduced the tax burden, but the reforms must continue. The taxes should at least be cut to a level where the average income earner ”only” pays 50 percent in taxes.


Nima Sanandaji

Swedish Taxpayers Association

[jimjames418]

i dont believe your "story".
but you get points for imagination.
I can't believe you have the nerve to come back. :whistle:

[rightside]

I am from the province of newfoundland, in Canada. I live in Labrador City and we are a mining town. We pay more income tax per person than any other community in my province. Meanwhile we have the worst health care in the province. We are hard working people but yet our people suffer because the government drains our wealth, and gives us garbage in return. It is disgraceful.

Do not allow government to control your health care, or you will regret it. They WILL jack up your federal debt, and you WILL be controlled. BEWARE.


Thank You, while its about 50 % for and 50 % against the ones in favor National Healthcare are the ones you can't disagree with, they riot if they don't get their wat, BTW is Canada considering Private insurance as an option to Government care, if America goes down this road, then only the super rich will be able to afford decent healthcare.

[newfoundlander]

I couldn't disagree more, speaking in generalities? No I think you are speaking as if the worst case scenario in Socialised Medicine is the norm, yes there are many horror stories about how Socialised Healthcare has failed its patients but I have heard even more stories about how private healthcare has failed its patients...

And by the way if the surgery is urgent of course you don't have to wait....
You do have to wait! Not everyone lives in a city. Some (alot) have to fly for hours. You know nothing of our country. In communities like mine, we make the money. We work the hardest and we deserve to have our own earned wealth. Not someone else. Earn you're own, or move somewhere that makes money. Do not attempt to assume someone can pay for someone else's misery. It is not our business through government to determine someone else's fate.

[newfoundlander]

Thank You, while its about 50 % for and 50 % against the ones in favor National Healthcare are the ones you can't disagree with, they riot if they don't get their wat, BTW is Canada considering Private insurance as an option to Government care, if America goes down this road, then only the super rich will be able to afford decent healthcare.
I am personally against any company insuring anyone. I am against insuring health in any form. Corporate or governmental. I feel if we have a pay as you go system

1. Costs will dramatically reduce, because having central authority naturally drives costs up. In cases such as presciption drugs, they are dramatic rises.
A good example of price reduction is evident in practically everything we purchase. Even eye surgery is dramatically cheaper today than it was 10 years ago. That is beacause there is little or no central authority. Computers today are a fraction of the cost they were 10 years and they are 100 times better. Good thing government don't control them.
2. Health care will improve because you are the client. Not government, and not insurance companies.
3. Many worry as would I, that people could not afford such a sociey. (notice I didn't write SYSTEM). There is no system. People thrive without a system. Doctors and nurses I beleive would be plentiful. Costs then are naturally affordable by the public.
4. In cases of very expensive surgery, I beleive in the future without such insurances, the costs of all surgeries will be so inexpensive that the costs could easily be paid for by the family and communities of the needy. With a dramatic decrease iin personal taxation there will be more employment, a more interest in personal health, and a more lively and closer family life. Old people would have to depend on their families more, bringng generations together.

I beleive the possibilities are endless.

[newfoundlander]

How many people are without doctors because they choose to be, utiliazing walk in clinics and emergency rooms instead of seeing a GP driving up healthcare costs
Listen man. Why don't you leave you little city or wherever you are and do some travelling. You really need it. Once again socialist do not have a click nor clue. You are truly stund. You tell me about all the great health care you are receiving on the backs of other people and you critisize us. Now I remember why I left Ontario. I couldn't get an intellectual conversation.

[newfoundlander]

You don't pay that bill for me as I never had one, there also 3 private clinic offering Pet scans in the Toronto area

Now why are there no private clinics you way, may it be that the private clinic like the public funded ones have seen that the poplutation base there is to small to support one?

If you do not like the community services living in a rural area move or do what others in your area do and cry because Labadour west gets better servicce due to political connections

Rural areas get the same care no matter where you are in Canada I know I haved in rural areas in Ontario and Alberta
You really do not have a clue. I just want my own money. Do you understand. I want to help my family not a collective. I care about my family, not you. I don't care about the sob stories. I just want what I earned so I and my family can take care of ourselves. Is that so wrong. Wanting to take care of oneself and one's family. Maybe you should focus on your family's wealth, and not you're government capabilities in stealing it

[newfoundlander]

Your Federal rate is lower than ours.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2007/fin/0426n06.htm

And it appears your provincial tax rate was cut another percent since that '07 press release.
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing

[newfoundlander]

Wow.

You just made the best case for why nationalized healthcare is the worst care found in the entire universe.

:))
Yeahhh. You're right. DRS keeps using private health care as the system to compare to. Good thing other communities are paying for all the government jobs. Federal Government is the biggest make work project in the history of our country.

[DRS]

You really do not have a clue. I just want my own money. Do you understand. I want to help my family not a collective. I care about my family, not you. I don't care about the sob stories. I just want what I earned so I and my family can take care of ourselves. Is that so wrong. Wanting to take care of oneself and one's family. Maybe you should focus on your family's wealth, and not you're government capabilities in stealing it

I realize that I am part of a family, a communtiy, a city, a province, a country and a planet and the better all do the better I do.

It is funny for years money was getting shipped to NF to help them during hard times now that things have shifted the same people who benefitted from a hand up now want it to be no more.

[Darkwind]

Yes because it is so much better to lose you house and lifesaving because you get a disease you could do nothing about
Except that no one does. I have yet to see a hospital confiscate a single persons home.

But you explained perfectly what happens when government decides who is important and who isn't. Communities that are poor and don't rank that high on the 'grand plan' for society get the dregs of healthcare while those deemed important get the best that an overly taxed population can provide!

One has to just examine the attitude of the liberal elite in the USA and their attitudes towards......"Fly over country".....to understand what would happen to those area's of the country that they look down upon.

Edited to add: And it does not take a physiologist to understand what kind of retribution an elite would visit upon those provinces that don't toe the party line. Medical services suddenly shortened. Waiting for critical equipment to facilities would increase until that particular area shaped up....things like that.

[waynevan]

I've been to NF and lived for a while in northern Alberta, investing into rural areas does not make much sense for the government, now if there is so much wealth as you say they you should be able to raise the fund through private donations like hospitals due and get equipment that attracts better doctors instead of whining

Better to just let them suffer eh?:rolleyes:

[newfoundlander]

Except that no one does. I have yet to see a hospital confiscate a single persons home.

But you explained perfectly what happens when government decides who is important and who isn't. Communities that are poor and don't rank that high on the 'grand plan' for society get the dregs of healthcare while those deemed important get the best that an overly taxed population can provide!

One has to just examine the attitude of the liberal elite in the USA and their attitudes towards......"Fly over country".....to understand what would happen to those area's of the country that they look down upon.

Edited to add: And it does not take a physiologist to understand what kind of retribution an elite would visit upon those provinces that don't toe the party line. Medical services suddenly shortened. Waiting for critical equipment to facilities would increase until that particular area shaped up....things like that.
That is exactly what is happening in our country. The liberals of the world only want to steal peoples wealth. Do you notice the socialists in this forum are not arguing to get their own wealth back in the form of tax reductions. I wonder why?

[newfoundlander]

I realize that I am part of a family, a communtiy, a city, a province, a country and a planet and the better all do the better I do.

It is funny for years money was getting shipped to NF to help them during hard times now that things have shifted the same people who benefitted from a hand up now want it to be no more.
We have hard times because of the socialist system. Hand outs are wrong and I'm glad you agree with me. Socialism is EVIL. Keep up the battle DRS. You may be my closest ally. It is so easy to outsmart a socialist.

[DRS]

Except that no one does. I have yet to see a hospital confiscate a single persons home.

But you explained perfectly what happens when government decides who is important and who isn't. Communities that are poor and don't rank that high on the 'grand plan' for society get the dregs of healthcare while those deemed important get the best that an overly taxed population can provide!

One has to just examine the attitude of the liberal elite in the USA and their attitudes towards......"Fly over country".....to understand what would happen to those area's of the country that they look down upon.

Edited to add: And it does not take a physiologist to understand what kind of retribution an elite would visit upon those provinces that don't toe the party line. Medical services suddenly shortened. Waiting for critical equipment to facilities would increase until that particular area shaped up....things like that.


Okay why are there no private clinics in his rural area?

[DRS]

We have hard times because of the socialist system. Hand outs are wrong and I'm glad you agree with me. Socialism is EVIL. Keep up the battle DRS. You may be my closest ally. It is so easy to outsmart a socialist.

You had a hard time due to poor use of resources, it never bothered me that money got sent to NF to help out

[DRS]

Better to just let them suffer eh?:rolleyes:

Should taxes be raised even more or should a central system be used and people travel to it?

Like I said the government has to be responisble with the money, if there was a void there you would see private clinics setting up but they don't. The reason why has to do with cost effectiveness

[coolidge]

I am in strong opposition of socialized medicine. I argue the simple principle that government should not make my decisions for me. If government truly wants to better our health system they can first set a maximum on liabilities for physicians. they can then give tax credits so people can spend it on a more fitting healthcare for the individual. The statement made by socialist activists is bettering your community is bettering yourself. With that mentality you should further define it as saying you are only as strong as your weakest player. Believe me, there will be many people riding the easy train in socialization while others work to make ends meet.

[johnrocks]

Okay why are there no private clinics in his rural area?

This organizations seems to be very anti private but says private clinics popping up all over Canada and is in every Province as of Oct.08 except Prince Edward Island.
Home / Health Care
New study shows private clinics spreading
Text size make text biggermake text smaller

(What are these?)
October 6, 2008 12:35 PM

A Ontario Health Coalition study exposes the explosive growth of private, for-profit diagnostic, surgical and “boutique” physician clinics across Canada.

The study finds that the spread of private clinics has caused extensive violations of medicare rights, and heightened inequalities in access to health care among Canadians.

Major findings include:

* 130 for-profit surgical, MRI and corporate physician clinics across Canada.
* For-profit clinics exist in all provinces but Prince Edward Island;
* Extra-billing, user fees and queue-jumping have contributed to medicare rights violations. Researchers found 89 suspected violations of the Canada Health Act
* For-profit clinics are siphoning doctors, nurses and other health care workers away from the public system
* Some physicians are enticing patients to their private practice with the promise of shorter waits
* Prices are out-of-reach for the vast majority: MRIs are sold for $600 - $1,200, knee surgery for upwards of $20,000
* For-profit clinics “cream skim” patients with easy-to-treat conditions, leaving higher-cost patients to the public system
* Most provinces have turned a blind eye to for-profit clinics, while the federal government has failed to penalize them for violations under the Canada Health Act.

Yourmedicarerights.ca has launched an online action asking Canada’s party leaders how they plan to defend public health care against private clinics.
http://cupe.ca/health-care/private-clinic-study

[Darkwind]

Okay why are there no private clinics in his rural area?Are you kidding Me?

What does that have to do with what My reply was all about? And in case you missed it. Canada is 100% socialized medicine. Private clinics are not permitted.

Can you honestly say that those in charge of healthcare on a social level would not use that against those who disagree with them?

Wake up. Our Congress was all set to pass a punitive law against a few dozen people because they couldn't stop the legal payment of their bonuses.

I shudder to think what they would do to an entire ideological group who opposed them if they had their hands on healthcare.

[Mimiheart]

Rural health care in general is worse than urban health care. It has nothing to do with whether or not it is socialized.

[Darkwind]

Rural health care in general is worse than urban health care. It has nothing to do with whether or not it is socialized.Not really, but nice try.

[DRS]

Are you kidding Me?

What does that have to do with what My reply was all about? And in case you missed it. Canada is 100% socialized medicine. Private clinics are not permitted.

Can you honestly say that those in charge of healthcare on a social level would not use that against those who disagree with them?

Wake up. Our Congress was all set to pass a punitive law against a few dozen people because they couldn't stop the legal payment of their bonuses.

I shudder to think what they would do to an entire ideological group who opposed them if they had their hands on healthcare.

Um I live in Canada and I know of private clinics to get to tests done for example a PET scan

I am also yet to see anyone denied healthcare due to political or religous idealogy

[DRS]

Not really, but nice try.

Why does my family in rural Ohio have to drive to Columbus then for specialists?

[King Cantona]

Except that no one does. I have yet to see a hospital confiscate a single persons home.

What you haven't seen isn't the issue, because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, did you not read my post about the old lady with alzheimers?...

[newfoundlander]

You had a hard time due to poor use of resources, it never bothered me that money got sent to NF to help out
You know nothing of Newfoundland or rural Canada it seems. Where do you think all of the government jobs in central Canada comes from. We pay for you're lifestyle, not the other way around. If you want a fair system, lets get rid of socialized health care and we all pay for our own. Or is the problem you're not capable of taking care of yourself.

[King Cantona]

Long story short, he paid a $100,000 fine, called England and hired a private jet to come pick him and his wife up and take her to Germany to the hospital. The lawyers told him he could maybe get his $100,000 back, but it would cost him $25,000 in legal fees and he would have to get the U.S. government to sign off on his law suit. And there was no guarteent he would get the $100,000 back. :evil:

There in a nutshell is a story about rich people thinking they deserve better healthcare simply because they are rich, no wonder you hate socialised medicine...

[King Cantona]

that's funny because i lived in the UK for 10 years and participated in your national health system - it SUCKS.

Well I have some experience of the American system and it also sucks so what are ya gonna do?...

[newfoundlander]

What you haven't seen isn't the issue, because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, did you not read my post about the old lady with alzheimers?...
The old lady with alzheimers don't have the right to take wealth from other people, who need to feed their own children. You expect that people are supposed to care about people we do not know. I just want to take care of my own family, not yours or anyone else's. The old lady with alzheimers would fair better if her family had all of their earned wealth and took care of her themselves. We don't need to read you're peice. You have yet to write anything intelligent.

[johnrocks]

Specialists are going to be in more populated areas, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the more populated areas will have the specialists but that's not the OP's problem, I don't think.

[King Cantona]

You really do not have a clue. I just want my own money. Do you understand. I want to help my family not a collective. I care about my family, not you. I don't care about the sob stories. I just want what I earned so I and my family can take care of ourselves. Is that so wrong. Wanting to take care of oneself and one's family. Maybe you should focus on your family's wealth, and not you're government capabilities in stealing it

Well truly it must be said that conservatism is the most selfish ideology of all and this post has ceratinly highlighted that fact...

[newfoundlander]

This organizations seems to be very anti private but says private clinics popping up all over Canada and is in every Province as of Oct.08 except Prince Edward Island.
Home / Health Care
New study shows private clinics spreading
Text size make text biggermake text smaller

(What are these?)
October 6, 2008 12:35 PM

A Ontario Health Coalition study exposes the explosive growth of private, for-profit diagnostic, surgical and “boutique” physician clinics across Canada.

The study finds that the spread of private clinics has caused extensive violations of medicare rights, and heightened inequalities in access to health care among Canadians.

Major findings include:

* 130 for-profit surgical, MRI and corporate physician clinics across Canada.
* For-profit clinics exist in all provinces but Prince Edward Island;
* Extra-billing, user fees and queue-jumping have contributed to medicare rights violations. Researchers found 89 suspected violations of the Canada Health Act
* For-profit clinics are siphoning doctors, nurses and other health care workers away from the public system
* Some physicians are enticing patients to their private practice with the promise of shorter waits
* Prices are out-of-reach for the vast majority: MRIs are sold for $600 - $1,200, knee surgery for upwards of $20,000
* For-profit clinics “cream skim” patients with easy-to-treat conditions, leaving higher-cost patients to the public system
* Most provinces have turned a blind eye to for-profit clinics, while the federal government has failed to penalize them for violations under the Canada Health Act.

Yourmedicarerights.ca has launched an online action asking Canada’s party leaders how they plan to defend public health care against private clinics.
http://cupe.ca/health-care/private-clinic-study
Good stuff johnrocks. Happy to have an ally.

[newfoundlander]

Well truly it must be said that conservatism is the most selfish ideology of all and this post has ceratinly highlighted that fact...
I am the one who wants to pay for my own responsibilities. Not you. You are certainly mistaken sir. If only we were all giving enough to help ourselves and our family instead of depending on the work of others. Why don't you want to pay for you're own.
Conservative's views are morally superior than those of socialists because we actually have them. I have a moral compass, you do not. GROW UP!

[johnrocks]

Good stuff johnrocks. Happy to have an ally.

lol, no problem, I think government intervention has done more harm to this planet than damn near anything.

[King Cantona]

The old lady with alzheimers don't have the right to take wealth from other people, who need to feed their own children. You expect that people are supposed to care about people we do not know. I just want to take care of my own family, not yours or anyone else's. The old lady with alzheimers would fair better if her family had all of their earned wealth and took care of her themselves. We don't need to read you're peice. You have yet to write anything intelligent.

I am so happy, believe me to hear that you (an intellectual pigmy) think I have not written anything intelligent, I guess I must be doing something right if you don't like it...

Actually I think you're quite possibly the most obnoxious poster that I have ever read, your selfishness and me me me outlook on life is truly amazing to me, the only thing that matters to you is you and yours. Did you know that you're not the ONLY man on the planet?...

But you couldn't care less about anything that happens outside of your own little circlle of friends, you make me ashamed that there are members of the human race with your attitude...

[2Parties1GlobalistGoal]

lol, no problem, I think government intervention has done more harm to this planet than damn near anything.

They need to shut those competitors down. Might take all the business away from the government system.

Wait, who am I kidding?

[newfoundlander]

You had a hard time due to poor use of resources, it never bothered me that money got sent to NF to help out
I'd rather have a hard time than to listen to you're garbage. The reason I left Ontario is because of uneducated comments like the ones you keep throwing out there. Good thing us Newfoundlanders are running Ontario. Where would you be without a real workforce. It's hard to work for yourself and the lazy Ontarion (or whatever you call yourselves) as well.

[newfoundlander]

I am so happy, believe me to hear that you (an intellectual pigmy) think I have not written anything intelligent, I guess I must be doing something right if you don't like it...

Actually I think you're quite possibly the most obnoxious poster that I have ever read, your selfishness and me me me outlook on life is truly amazing to me, the only thing that matters to you is you and yours. Did you know that you're not the ONLY man on the planet?...

But you couldn't care less about anything that happens outside of your own little circlle of friends, you make me ashamed that there are members of the human race with your attitude...
I want to pay for my own responsibilities. How about you. Why can't you answer that question I wonder. Socialist always want something for nothing. Pay for your own, and take care of you're own family.

[johnrocks]

What are taxes like in Canada? I read that half of Canada's budget is health care related, is this true?

[johnrocks]

I just googled Newfoundland...gorgeous! I want to visit Canada so much!

[King Cantona]

I want to pay for my own responsibilities. How about you. Why can't you answer that question I wonder. Socialist always want something for nothing. Pay for your own, and take care of you're own family.

I can''t help it, I'm just not selfish like you. I actually care about other people, I realise that it's an outlandish concept to you but that's the person I am and have always strived to be....

I like myself, I find it hard to believe that someone as selfish as you can feel the same......

I guess it would be foolish of me to ask if you give to charity........:))........

[coolidge]

socialized medicine is not the cure for our country. It promotes mediocrity, it stifles ingenuity and it allows a free ride to people who do not want to strive for their best. How about we take a look at the real culprits, the insurance companies. Paying a high premium when we are healthy, then turn around a pay a high deductible when we call on their services. How about we strenthen laws that allow physicians more control on the care giving of the patient and stop hospitals from corporate take overs of their offices just because the physician can not pay the costly malpractice insurances. What the healthcare system needs is more competiveness. What people realize is thanks to the Clinton administration where HMO's were supported, small hospitals could not afford to run. Big hospital systems would then come in and buy out the smaller hospital. Doctors offices were dominantly private practices up until that era.
Put the power of healthcare to the people, not government. Allow them to drive a competitive market and that will drive costs down. Stop allowing insurance companies to bleed this system dry.

[DRS]

I'd rather have a hard time than to listen to you're garbage. The reason I left Ontario is because of uneducated comments like the ones you keep throwing out there. Good thing us Newfoundlanders are running Ontario. Where would you be without a real workforce. It's hard to work for yourself and the lazy Ontarion (or whatever you call yourselves) as well.

Most people I meet from NF are the salt of the Earth you seem to be one of the rare exceptions, many admit they moved to Ontario to get a better life as far as employment and education go

It is funny for the first time in many many years Ontario is recieving an equalization payment and you are here complaing

NF is still get money per capita from the Feds then Ontario is getting

[DRS]

What are taxes like in Canada? I read that half of Canada's budget is health care related, is this true?

The tax rate depends on the province and when my exwife and I compared paycheck while she was living the US if you factored in what she was paying for in her share of her employer provided healthcare I was having less money taken off my paycheck from a percentage standpoint

[DRS]

I just googled Newfoundland...gorgeous! I want to visit Canada so much!

It is beautiful province I have pretty much been from the east to the west of the country

Oh if you are going to NF and your a single guy it can be quite funny you end up with more mothers taking you to meet their daughters then you know what to do with :D

[King Cantona]

It is beautiful province I have pretty much been from the east to the west of the country

Oh if you are going to NF and your a single guy it can be quite funny you end up with more mothers taking you to meet their daughters then you know what to do with :D

Are there many people like newfoundlander there? Because if there are I don't wanna go....;)...

[DRS]

Are there many people like newfoundlander there? Because if there are I don't wanna go....;)...

No he is one of the first I have ever met like that, I work with a bunch of them and they are loud but a fun bunch