Prison abuse photos from Afghanistan/Iraq to be released. When will this madness end?

[BillyM 2007]

The liberals running amok in our government are getting crazier by the day... We are now close to releasing "prison abuse" photos from Afghanistan and Iraq. Our nation’s enemies must be rolling on the floor laughing over our inexcusable stupidity.

Watering down the definition of torture to include water boarding and insects was bad enough (akin to redefining jay-walking as a felony)… and NOW THIS.

This is insane, people.

[Trinka]

The liberals running amok in our government are getting crazier by the day. We are now close to releasing "prison abuse" photos from Afghanistan and Iraq. Our nation’s enemies must be rolling on the floor laughing over our inexcusable stupidity.

Watering down the definition of torture to include water boarding and insects was bad enough (akin to redefining jay-walking as a felony)… and NOW THIS.

This is insane, people.
The question is WHY? What good does this do for the country? They can't possible think this is good for the US

[BillyM 2007]

The question is WHY?
The "why" is obvious. The self-loathing, anti-American statists on the Left are doing everything in their power to destroy this country's history and culture, and remake it into their beloved socialist/fascist pipedream. A utopian fantasy that FAILS miserably everywhere it is tried and brings nothing but pain and suffering to those who live under its big-government jackboot.

It wasn’t just an election we went through last year… it appears more and more to have been a coup.

[ddye]

The "why" is obvious. The self-loathing, anti-American statists on the Left are doing everything in their power to destroy this country's history and culture, and remake it into their beloved socialist/fascist pipedream. A utopian fantasy that FAILS miserably everywhere it is tried and brings nothing but pain and suffering to those who live under its big-government jackboot.

It wasn’t just an election we went through last year… it appears more and more to have been a coup.
Oh DAMN, you have uncovered our evil plot! :))

I LOVE this forum, this **** is PRICELESS! You even got the word "jackboot" in! It's an exciting time to be a conservative, huh? You get to live in your own Orwellian fantasy world, where everyone's an anti American traitor but you.

Doug

[BillyM 2007]

You even got the word "jackboot" in! It's an exciting time to be a conservative, huh?
This administration is talking about prosecuting officials from the previous administration... which is unprecedented. Hitler captured Germany, not by force of arms, but use of the law. The statists are moving us in the direction of ever-bigger, ever more repressive national government at a frightenly rapid pace (100 days, now).

So far, they have all but nationalized the banks and auto industry, and are now zeroing in on healthcare and energy.

“Jackboot” is perfect metaphor for what the statists ultimately want for us. Freedom is anathema to people like this. They are control freaks who love using the power of the sword for compelling behavior THEY deem appropriate.

[alfred123]

Be afraid. Be very, very afraid. Be angry. Be very, very angry.

[Greg]

How can one think or agree that making such photos documents etc. Visible or displayed for the world to see do us any good? I would never in a million years think that we would be living in such times. Millions are unemployed our economy in a deep HOLE!!!!!!!! all while we have a president in office who visits other countries and puts our very own country to shame!!!!! This is not a representation of any American i know wants on their behalf.

[BillyM 2007]

How can one think or agree that making such photos documents etc. Visible or displayed for the world to see do us any good? I would never in a million years think that we would be living in such times. Millions are unemployed our economy in a deep HOLE!!!!!!!! all while we have a president in office who visits other countries and puts our very own country to shame!!!!! This is not a representation of any American i know wants on their behalf.
And the worst is yet to come. The statists aren't done nationalizing everything they can get their hands on... and the COMMERCIAL real-estate sector is poised as the next big sector looming on the edge of collapse... with trillions at stake.

[ddye]

My question was....what good is this going to do for the country? What good is this going to do with our enemies let alone our own people.........have you ever seen the contry more divided? (in your liftime)....I simply see NO good coming from this....
I have seen the country PLENTY more divided than this. Remember the Vietnam War? This comes nowhere CLOSE to that.

Besides, the country is actually united more than it has been for a long time. It's just that the far right has been left out.

Ok, so what good does it do? Besides partisan reasons that is.....
Obviously Obama (and a lot of other people) thinks that a little honesty and humility will help America regain her foreign policy integrity. It is WAY too early to judge the results of that.

Doug

[BillyM 2007]

I'd say that it is a "representation" of what a MAJORITY of Americans want.

If that is what a "MAJORITY" want, why wasn't he full-throated about it during the campaign? Why did he pretend to be "moderate" when he is, in fact, a far-left radical with a history of friends and associates in that same radical sphere?

He threw, as an example, Wright under the bus the second he became a liability to him... yet retains Wright's worldview as his own.

Like most Leftists, he's a habitual liar and propagandist.... truth would be the death of his agenda. An agenda that is being accomplished stealthily using obfuscated language.

That’s what statists do to achieve power.

[STEEL]

The question is WHY? What good does this do for the country? They can't possible think this is good for the US

He was running out of things to apologize to the bad guys and lie to Americans about.

He needed more ammo.

Personally I would prefer the President concentrate on doing his job.

[Trinka]

I have seen the country PLENTY more divided than this. Remember the Vietnam War? This comes nowhere CLOSE to that.

Besides, the country is actually united more than it has been for a long time. It's just that the far right has been left out.

Doug
I don't consider myself the "far right".......I was a teenager in the 70's more interested in fun...(ummm a young teenager I might add) hard to remember how I felt then...about world afairs...more into boy stuff...O so much more important ..I know...
any way...I don't see our country more united than ever right now...I see the divide growing daily...IMO

[PAmoderate37]

My question was....what good is this going to do for the country? What good is this going to do with our enemies let alone our own people.........have you ever seen the contry more divided? (in your liftime)....I simply see NO good coming from this....

I don't know about the Country itself, but I bet that Female General who was incharge at Abu Grab that the Bush Adminstration through under the bus when the story first leaked out, feels pretty vindicated right now.

[Silentnomore]

He was running out of things to apologize to the bad guys and lie to Americans about.

He needed more ammo.

Personally I would prefer the President concentrate on doing his job.


This is closer to the REAL reason :mad:

[Gh0sTeR]

You should think before you type.


Ever think about taking your own advice? ;)

[Greg]

Doug,
Are you concluding that most Americans approve of our current President visiting other countries and asking for their excuse on previous Administration behaviors dating back to when he was only 3months old . Yes this was in his own words during the presidents meeting that were held recently. After dictator Daniel Ortega spoke badly about this great country you and i love .

[Gh0sTeR]

My question was....what good is this going to do for the country? What good is this going to do with our enemies let alone our own people.........have you ever seen the contry more divided? (in your liftime)....I simply see NO good coming from this....


Doug and his fellow Libbers WANT America divided. It's how they are.

[toreyj01]

...still waiting on you to defend the actions.

What purpose will it serve to release the photos?integrity
One entry found.


Main Entry: in·teg·ri·ty
Pronunciation: \in-ˈte-grə-tē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English integrite, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French integrité, from Latin integritat-, integritas, from integr-, integer entire
Date: 14th century
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility
2 : an unimpaired condition : soundness
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : completeness

[Trinka]

integrity
One entry found.


Main Entry: in·teg·ri·ty
Pronunciation: \in-ˈte-grə-tē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English integrite, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French integrité, from Latin integritat-, integritas, from integr-, integer entire
Date: 14th century
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility
2 : an unimpaired condition : soundness
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : completeness
You think that's what this is all about? Seriously?

[Getty Girl]

what is really going on right now behind the smoke & mirror of this diversion?

[mgifford]

During the Vietnam protests, only a small percentage of kooks raised hell and spit on their country (America). In 2009 half the country voted in a Marxist, rogue, liar and hater of America. Hey Doug, GET A CLUE!

[James Juno]

The liberals running amok in our government are getting crazier by the day... We are now close to releasing "prison abuse" photos from Afghanistan and Iraq. Our nation’s enemies must be rolling on the floor laughing over our inexcusable stupidity.

Watering down the definition of torture to include water boarding and insects was bad enough (akin to redefining jay-walking as a felony)… and NOW THIS.

This is insane, people.

It won't stop until bipartisanship has been replaced by the One True Party. That's been the end-goal since that sycophant Obama and his entourage took control of Congress.

[ddye]

Doug,
Are you concluding that most Americans approve of our current President visiting other countries and asking for their excuse on previous Administration behaviors dating back to when he was only 3months old . Yes this was in his own words during the presidents meeting that were held recently. After dictator Daniel Ortega spoke badly about this great country you and i love .
Obama flat out said that he would stop American diplomatic arrogance. So yes, I'd say that most Americans approve of his doing what he said he would do.

During the Vietnam protests, only a small percentage of kooks raised hell and spit on their country (America). In 2009 half the country voted in a Marxist, rogue, liar and hater of America. Hey Doug, GET A CLUE!
By the time we finally got out, a huge majority of American wanted us out. Get your own clue.

But I was speaking about the country being divided. If you seriously state that we're more divided now, when the largest percentage of Americans in FIVE YEARS thinks that we're "on the right track", I can only surmise that you weren't around during Vietnam.

Doug

[roger teekell]

I think that these photos going global ( Not knowing the context in which they were taken ) Will likely CREATE MORE TERRORISTS seeking revenge on the US...

And it won't matter if the treatment was justified or not..

[Guvnah]

Obama flat out said that he would stop American diplomatic arrogance. So yes, I'd say that most Americans approve of his doing what he said he would do.




Doug, you have been very careful to tiptoe around answering the specific question.

I'll ask you directly. Do YOU think there is a positive benefit to releasing these photos?

If so, what is that benefit?

[toreyj01]

You think that's what this is all about? Seriously?
Yes, I do.

[Guvnah]

I'll say this about it.

It's old news. It is a settled issue. People were prosecuted and convicted. Jobs were lost. People were courtmartialed. It's done. Releasing the photos now is just picking old scabs.

We saw the result of the first wave of photo distribution. It energized Islamic anger. (And not just extremist anger!) It emboldened Jihadist participation. It is almost universally accepted that the Abu Graib incident drew new combatants to the battlefield.

Why do we expect something different this time around?

[toreyj01]

Doug, you have been very careful to tiptoe around answering the specific question.

I'll ask you directly. Do YOU think there is a positive benefit to releasing these photos?

If so, what is that benefit?For a house to stand and endure, its foundation must be solid and unwavering.

Torture is not a suitable foundation, it only weakens us.

[Greg]

Billy,
You are right brother it almost seems that we are getting closer to it by the minute. Bigger goverment can only = eyes on you and what you do and how you do it and if its not to their approval becareful they might just prosicute you too.

[ModerateVoice]

I think that these photos going global ( Not knowing the context in which they were taken ) Will likely CREATE MORE TERRORISTS seeking revenge on the US...

And it won't matter if the treatment was justified or not..

VERY IMPORTANT point made!

Liberals want to whine about waterboarding terrorists but choose to ignore the reality that the release of these photo's might actually inflame our enemies into staging a terrorist attack as retribution for the images in the photo's.

[James Juno]

For a house to stand and endure, its foundation must be solid and unwavering.

Torture is not a suitable foundation, it only weakens us.

Could be, but I look around at the world today and realize our bickering over "torture" is ****ing on a forest fire.

[Coffi]

For a house to stand and endure, its foundation must be solid and unwavering.

Torture is not a suitable foundation, it only weakens us.

Thank you for saying this.

We tried the Japanese and Germans for the practices we committed.

A nation's morality stands in the balance.

[TheModerateOne]

I'll say this about it.

It's old news. It is a settled issue. People were prosecuted and convicted. Jobs were lost. People were courtmartialed. It's done. Releasing the photos now is just picking old scabs.

We saw the result of the first wave of photo distribution. It energized Islamic anger. (And not just extremist anger!) It emboldened Jihadist participation. It is almost universally accepted that the Abu Graib incident drew new combatants to the battlefield.

Why do we expect something different this time around?

No. But it isn't about morality or any of that. It's about fostering hatred for political opponents.

[Coffi]

VERY IMPORTANT point made!

Liberals want to whine about waterboarding terrorists but choose to ignore the reality that the release of these photo's might actually inflame our enemies into staging a terrorist attack as retribution for the images in the photo's.

Or it might show them that we are investigating our own bad guys to make sure this doesn't happen to their people again.

I find it funny that the same people that decry abortion for religious reasons are up in arms that we are going after those that torture.

If the guys that did this torture had funny hats and names like Mohammed I bet everyone in this thread would be willing to burn them at the stake and whiz on the ashes, but because it was done to others it is okay? I am not tracking the argument, perhaps you could explain how what we found the Japenese guilty of and called it torture(waterboarding), is no longer torture.

[ModerateVoice]

I am not tracking the argument, perhaps you could explain how what we found the Japenese guilty of and called it torture(waterboarding), is no longer torture.

If you're too lazy to track the argument, then I can't help you out.

[goeagles]

My question was....what good is this going to do for the country? What good is this going to do with our enemies let alone our own people.........have you ever seen the contry more divided? (in your liftime).....
Oh, Lord, yes.
You must not have lived through the late sixties and early 70s, 1968, Vietnam, the civil rights controversies.
Our country is not divided today the way you suggest, as though it were split down the middle.
The latest polls out this week show that more Americans are happy with the country's direction now than in a long time.
And President Obama's job approval ratings are running in the mid-60s.
The far right isn't happy, but other than that....

[Agent655]

Obama flat out said that he would stop American diplomatic arrogance. So yes, I'd say that most Americans approve of his doing what he said he would do.


By the time we finally got out, a huge majority of American wanted us out. Get your own clue.

But I was speaking about the country being divided. If you seriously state that we're more divided now, when the largest percentage of Americans in FIVE YEARS thinks that we're "on the right track", I can only surmise that you weren't around during Vietnam.

Doug

Is there honestly anything anyone could say or do to make you doubt Obama and your party?

[croupier101]

The liberals running amok in our government are getting crazier by the day... We are now close to releasing "prison abuse" photos from Afghanistan and Iraq. Our nation’s enemies must be rolling on the floor laughing over our inexcusable stupidity.

Watering down the definition of torture to include water boarding and insects was bad enough (akin to redefining jay-walking as a felony)… and NOW THIS.

This is insane, people.

I admit that conservatives are going to have to get used to transparancy and accountability from the White House again. Don't worry, you'll get used to it.

[Guvnah]

For a house to stand and endure, its foundation must be solid and unwavering.

Torture is not a suitable foundation, it only weakens us.

You also tiptoed around the question.

I'll ask YOU directly now.

Do YOU think there is a positive benefit to releasing these photos?

If so, what would that be?

[TheModerateOne]

You also tiptoed around the question.

I'll ask YOU directly now.

Do YOU think there is a positive benefit to releasing these photos?

If so, what would that be?

The only positives for them are political. They think this will help to ensure they stay in power forever.

[Guvnah]

Or it might show them that we are investigating our own bad guys to make sure this doesn't happen to their people again.

...

We already did that.

Now we're just picking old scabs.

[Silentnomore]

I admit that conservatives are going to have to get used to transparancy and accountability from the White House again. Don't worry, you'll get used to it.


It's fairly easy to be transparent when you're attempting to place blame.

Just seems like a whole lot of distraction.

[Mohawk5]

Protect those evil terrorists!!! I mean man made disaster causers!!!

[Guvnah]

perhaps you could explain how what we found the Japenese guilty of and called it torture(waterboarding), is no longer torture.

Be honest here.

We did not find the Japanese guilty of waterboarding.

You are using a McCain statement that says we found the Japanese guilty of torture (in general) and one of the things they did was waterboarding.

They did purple nurples too.

Read up on what POWs endured at the hands of the Japanese.

You are blowing your credibility by saying we found the Japanese guilty of waterboarding.

[akuma]

If you're too lazy to track the argument, then I can't help you out.

sure you can - if you dont think waterboardig is torture when its done by the US but it is when the Japanese do it then we'd all like to see just what type of hypocrisy drink thats being imbided by those that call themselves "conservatives"

[Fire Watch]

I find it funny that the same people that decry abortion for religious reasons are up in arms that we are going after those that torture.

Only in the disturbed minds of liberals is the slaughter of millions of innocent babies for convenience's sake equatable to extracting life saving information from those who have killed us, and wish to kill more of us.

[jprin]

You also tiptoed around the question.

I'll ask YOU directly now.

Do YOU think there is a positive benefit to releasing these photos?

If so, what would that be?

I know you didn't pose the question to me, but you do get to the root of the OP.

The previous administration's public policy (and statements) were contradicted by it's actions. Nation building, love for all innocent life, declaring the "US doesn't torture", are all statements proven false by it's actions. And that administration cloaked itself in levels of secrecy that made it impossible for the public here and abroad to match deeds with words. Bush supporters were happy with it because they trusted Bush.

Disinformation by our enemies to rally support for their cause is to paint the US as "evil" and teaching followers that the US is in Iraq to nation build, that innocent civilians are being killed, and that anyone taken into US custody will be tortured. Powerful stuff. Bush/Cheney made our enemy leaders credible in part by their obsession with secrecy.

We have always been a nation that represented Democracy and transparency is one of the most fundamental attributes of Democracy. The current administration is rebuilding our credibility in the world, and most importantly, restoring the openness and accountability that US citizens expect and deserve. Releasing photos of abuses demonstrates to the world that we are the beacon of Democracy we claim to be, that we are strong enough to admit when we don't abide by our own principles, and it severely damages the ability of our enemies to incite their followers who saw first hand that we weren't living up to our own ideals. That's pretty beneficial IMO.

[Broseph]

Releasing the photos the right thing to do? Absolutely.

Why? The American government is supposed to serve the American people. The people should know what the government does behind its back, even if the government claims it knows what it in the best interests of the pubic. More government transparency is a good thing.

Showing photos of interrogation techniques does not increase the chances of a terrorist attack on the United States, although it seems some people here think that it does. These people would probably allow the federal government to do anything as long as it was to fight the 'islamofascists'. It's showing photos, not dropping leaflets on the concept of nuclear fission in Afghanistan.

[penner01]

sure you can - if you dont think waterboardig is torture when its done by the US but it is when the Japanese do it then we'd all like to see just what type of hypocrisy drink thats being imbided by those that call themselves "conservatives"Or maybe you have just missed all of the posts that quite thoroughly demonstrated that what Japan did in no way equates to the waterboarding used at GITMO. If they aren't the same thing then your "hypocracy" rant is meaningless. And that's the drink of liberals

[penner01]

Releasing the photos the right thing to do? Absolutely.

Why? The American government is supposed to serve the American people. The people should know what the government does behind its back, even if the government claims it knows what it in the best interests of the pubic. More government transparency is a good thing.

Showing photos of interrogation techniques does not increase the chances of a terrorist attack on the United States, although it seems some people here think that it does. These people would probably allow the federal government to do anything as long as it was to fight the 'islamofascists'. It's showing photos, not dropping leaflets on the concept of nuclear fission in Afghanistan.then I suppose we should have transcripts of every meeting and conversation the government representatives involve themselves in.....since "what the government does behind our back" is a pretty broad topic. How about everything they have done behind our back in distributing funds from these stimulus packages?

[goeagles]

The question is WHY? What good does this do for the country? They can't possible think this is good for the US
It is good because it is a responsive government in action.
We are free Americans.
We have a right to know what policies our representatives are pursuing in our name.

[penner01]

I admit that conservatives are going to have to get used to transparancy and accountability from the White House again. Don't worry, you'll get used to it.come on, Croup, you know damn well the transparency and accoutnability is just more political game for political gain.

[ModerateVoice]

Releasing the photos the right thing to do? Absolutely.

Why? The American government is supposed to serve the American people. The people should know what the government does behind its back, even if the government claims it knows what it in the best interests of the pubic. More government transparency is a good thing.

Showing photos of interrogation techniques does not increase the chances of a terrorist attack on the United States, although it seems some people here think that it does. These people would probably allow the federal government to do anything as long as it was to fight the 'islamofascists'. It's showing photos, not dropping leaflets on the concept of nuclear fission in Afghanistan.

You should really watch the Nick Berg beheading video a couple of times to see the type of animal scum that you guys on the left keep defending. Make sure you turn up the sound so that you can hear Nick Berg gurgling and gagging for air, take a look into the eyes of Nick Berg as he is having his head sawed off with a dull blade...Please, please, do that...Then recognize that we could put Khalid Sheik Muhammad up in the Waldorf & send him virgins & room service all day but he still would like to cut off the head of YOUR children. THAT IS THE REALITY OF THIS WAR. Why release photo's that gives a propaganda tool to the enemy?!

[Silentnomore]

It is good because it is a responsive government in action.
We are free Americans.
We have a right to know what policies our representatives are pursuing in our name.


Does this apply to only policies? If not, they'd better get busy being "transparent" about where our tax dollars are going.

Of course that could possibly reflect badly on them so.....maybe not so much :mad:

[rodlang]

I'm all for honesty and humility and I think waterboarding is torture. But I see no purpose in releasing more photos of abuse. We have already gone through Abu Graib. The EIT memos have been released. Obama has said that we will no longer use these methods of interrogation. GITMO will eventually be closed. To release more photos at this point serves no purpose except to give our enemies in the world and the crowd at MSNBC, DKOS and MoveOn another opportunity to mock and ridicule America and scream that Bush and Cheney should be locked up. Nothing good will come of this except that Olbermann can do more BUUUSSHEEDD rants. I guess he will be pleased.

[Silentnomore]

You should really watch the Nick Berg beheading video a couple of times to see the type of animal scum that you guys on the left keep defending. Make sure you turn up the sound so that you can hear Nick Berg gurgling and gagging for air, take a look into the eyes of Nick Berg as he is having his head sawed off with a dull blade...Please, please, do that...Then recognize that we could put Khalid Sheik Muhammad up in the Waldorf & send him virgins & room service all day but he still would like to cut off the head of YOUR children. THAT IS THE REALITY OF THIS WAR. Why release photo's that gives a propaganda tool to the enemy?!


That's it in a nutshell.

[Kegler300]

The Obama "apologize to the world" and "bring America down to size" campaigns continue...

[ModerateVoice]

I'm all for honesty and humility and I think waterboarding is torture. But I see no purpose in releasing more photos of abuse. We have already gone through Abu Graib. The EIT memos have been released. Obama has said that we will no longer use these methods of interrogation. GITMO will eventually be closed. To release more photos at this point serves no purpose except to give our enemies in the world and the crowd at MSNBC, DKOS and MoveOn another opportunity to mock and ridicule America and scream that Bush and Cheney should be locked up. Nothing good will come of this except that Olbermann can do more BUUUSSHEEDD rants. I guess he will be pleased.

Which allows me to build on a post I just made.

Why doesn't the MSM remind America of the Daniel Perl and Nick Berg beheadings? Why isn't the ACLU rushing to publish pictures of the atrocities committed by the enemy?

Why is it that the only inflammatory pictures that the left are ever concerned about are the one's that involve Americans?

[LJ14]

I've been thinking about this all day :think:... 'Why Obama would ramp up the energy on this waterboarding thing by releasing more photos'... and my conclusion is that he WANTS this discussion.

Bearing in mind that EVERYTHING he does is done for political gain or to forward his statist agenda, that nothing he does is genuine, we have to look at what he has to gain as opposed to what he loses.

In the loss column, he's viewed as soft on national security. This is a rather constant criticism anyway. It's nothing new, so any loss would be a small one. If we get hit again, he will simply blame the ire of the terrorists at alleged "mistreatment" of prisoners. Conveniently forgetting that we hadn't used any "enhanced techniques" prior to 9/11 and they still murdered about 3000 of our citizens in cold blood. Forgetting as well the torture and beheading of Americans who have fallen into terrorist hands.

In the gain column is this... he gets to paint Republicans as torture-lovin' monsters right before he screws them by invoking "reconciliation" in order to pass his healthcare, education, and possibly cap-and-trade initiatives.

A picture is worth a thousand words... and we are, overall, a sympathetic people. Obama ups the ante knowing that the sight of human beings in distress moves the emotions. And no one is going to caption those photos "Here is a guy who would gladly slit your childrens' throats if given the opportunity".

He has little to lose on the national security front. He had no reputation for it anyway. He buys himself a flimsy excuse if we get hit again, but any port in a storm is better than none, so he'll take advantage of it if necessary.

Meanwhile, he manages to change the political subject from exorbitant government spending and tea parties as well as create a negative emotional reaction toward Republicans. Win-win. When he brings his big-spending agenda to the floor, he doesn't want our Republican representatives to be viewed as sympathetic figures while he's locking them out of the legislative process.

His healthcare initiative WILL mean rationing and denial of services to the aged and dying though. That is inevitable. He doesn't want to talk about that.
Charles Krauthammer lays it all out here...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/23/AR2009042302983.html

[penner01]

Or it might show them that we are investigating our own bad guys to make sure this doesn't happen to their people again.Releasing the photos shows no such thing, and there is absolutely no purpose served in releasing them other than political gain. The same is true for the documents.

I find it funny that the same people that decry abortion for religious reasons are up in arms that we are going after those that torture.Your train of thought here doesn't even make sense. Those that believe abortion kills babies should equate it to harsh interrogation? What?

If the guys that did this torture had funny hats and names like Mohammed I bet everyone in this thread would be willing to burn them at the stake and whiz on the ashes, but because it was done to others it is okay? I am not tracking the argument, perhaps you could explain how what we found the Japenese guilty of and called it torture(waterboarding), is no longer torture.They'd be our enemies or they wouldn't be doing it. Of course we would be willing to burn them at the stke ans whiz on the ashes. That it was done by others is hardly the point. It was done in our interests as intelligence gathering to protect our country and our citizens.

These arguments don't feel to me like they have much substance.

[sense_is_common]

Which allows me to build on a post I just made.

Why doesn't the MSM remind America of the Daniel Perl and Nick Berg beheadings? Why isn't the ACLU rushing to publish pictures of the atrocities committed by the enemy?

Why is it that the only inflammatory pictures that the left are ever concerned about are the one's that involve Americans?

Probably because the people who perpetrated those acts are not interested or attached to OUR Constitution.

Simply put, that Constitution and the fact we object to things like this are what make us different from them...what most would say make us better.

Our potential mistakes are scrutinized, and rightfully so, because we hold ourselves to standards above them.

[penner01]

I've been thinking about this all day... 'Why Obama would ramp up the energy on this waterboarding thing by releasing more photos'... and my conclusion is that he WANTS this discussion.
I only cut most of this out because it is lengthy to post again.....among many valid alternative analysis, this is a good one.

What strikes me though is the comments you made regarding the emotional tone the pictures will strike and your comments regarding slit throats and beheadings.......I am amazed that there is more national outcry over GITMO, and harsh techniques (refusing to call it torture), the belief by some that laws were broken and what will be aroused with the pictures.....than there ever was over photos and videos of what was happening to Americans other than 9/11 itself (a date too few still feel the pain of)

[badkarma]

sure you can - if you dont think waterboardig is torture when its done by the US but it is when the Japanese do it then we'd all like to see just what type of hypocrisy drink thats being imbided by those that call themselves "conservatives"
Please provide evidence that what the Japanese did in WWII is the same thing that the US did in 2003.

[ThatGovernsLeast]

"How can one think or agree that making such photos documents etc. Visible or displayed for the world to see do us any good?"

"What purpose will it serve to release the photos?"

"Ok, so what good does it do? Besides partisan reasons that is....."

And here's the answer:

This was written by Matthew Alexander in the Washington Post, who
“served for 14 years in the U.S. Air Force, began my career as a Special Operations pilot flying helicopters, saw combat in Bosnia and Kosovo, became an Air Force counterintelligence agent, then volunteered to go to Iraq to work as a senior interrogator.”

So obviously and to be perfectly frank, this man knows so much more about torture than any of us do. He knows so much more about the situation than any of us do, and he is proudly doing his duty as an American to keep us safe. So it's hard to argue with any point he makes from our position.

Anyways he said:

“Violence was at its peak during my five-month tour in Iraq. In February 2006, the month before I arrived, Zarqawi's forces (members of Iraq's Sunni minority) blew up the golden-domed Askariya mosque in Samarra, a shrine revered by Iraq's majority Shiites, and unleashed a wave of sectarian bloodshed.”

“Amid the chaos, four other Air Force criminal investigators and I joined an elite team of interrogators attempting to locate Zarqawi. What I soon discovered about our methods astonished me. The Army was still conducting interrogations according to the Guantanamo Bay model: Interrogators were nominally using the methods outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual, the interrogators' bible, but they were pushing in every way possible to bend the rules -- and often break them. I don't have to belabor the point; dozens of newspaper articles and books have been written about the misconduct that resulted. These interrogations were based on fear and control; they often resulted in torture and abuse.”

“I refused to participate in such practices, and a month later, I extended that prohibition to the team of interrogators I was assigned to lead. I taught the members of my unit a new methodology -- one based on building rapport with suspects, showing cultural understanding and using good old-fashioned brainpower to tease out information. I personally conducted more than 300 interrogations, and I supervised more than 1,000. The methods my team used are not classified (they're listed in the unclassified Field Manual), but the way we used them was, I like to think, unique. We got to know our enemies, we learned to negotiate with them, and we adapted criminal investigative techniques to our work (something that the Field Manual permits, under the concept of "ruses and trickery"). It worked. Our efforts started a chain of successes that ultimately led to Zarqawi.”

“Over the course of this renaissance in interrogation tactics, our attitudes changed. We no longer saw our prisoners as the stereotypical al-Qaeda evildoers we had been repeatedly briefed to expect; we saw them as Sunni Iraqis, often family men protecting themselves from Shiite militias and trying to ensure that their fellow Sunnis would still have some access to wealth and power in the new Iraq. Most surprisingly, they turned out to despise al-Qaeda in Iraq as much as they despised us”

“Our new interrogation methods led to one of the war's biggest breakthroughs: We convinced one of Zarqawi's associates to give up the al-Qaeda in Iraq leader's location. On June 8, 2006, U.S. warplanes dropped two 500-pound bombs on a house where Zarqawi was meeting with other insurgent leaders.”

If you haven’t started a chain of success that ultimately led to the death of a monstrous terrorist, then you can’t argue with this man. His method clearly works. The real question is does his method work better than the methods of interrogation that are often double spoken as “enhanced.”

“I know the counter-argument well- that we need the rough stuff for the truly hard cases, such as battle-hardened core leaders of al-Qaeda, not just run-of-the-mill Iraqi insurgents. But that's not always true: We turned several hard cases, including some foreign fighters, by using our new techniques. A few of them never abandoned the jihadist cause but still gave up critical information. One actually told me, "I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate.””

This blew my mind when I first read it! I almost didn't want to believe it. Torturing people doesn’t save lives!

It’s really simple. The fact that we torture is actually used by Al-qaeda to recruit against us. Muslim extremists are more than willing to fight us when they think of their families being tortured. I really don’t like to see americans killed. And I know that this war is never over unless we stop torturing and make sure that those who did are held accountable.

So releasing the pictures. That actually does something good. I don't want to defend Obama. But the truth is, he's doing something that is really smart and makes a lot of sense in the world that we actually live in.
It shows the muslim world that we are willing to take responsibility for our actions. Because the truth is: they do hate al-qaeda just as much as they hate us. And so we should really regard these people not as enemies but as people who could be turned to our cause if we offer them a better opportunity than they can get from al-qaeda.
That means not torturing and showing that we are willing to put our money where our mouth is.

In short: releasing these photos will probably, in the long run, save more lives than torturing anyone did.

And of course that’s understandable, because torturing doesn’t work.

Brig. General David R. Irvine writes:

“No one has yet offered any validated evidence that torture produces reliable intelligence. While torture apologists frequently make the claim that torture saves lives, that assertion is directly contradicted by many Army, FBI, and CIA professionals who have actually interrogated al Qaeda captives. Exhibit A is the torture-extracted confession of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an al Qaeda captive who told the CIA in 2001, having been "rendered" to the tender mercies of Egypt, that Saddam Hussein had trained al Qaeda to use WMD. It appears that this confession was the only information upon which, in late 2002, the president, the vice president, and the secretary of state repeatedly claimed that "credible evidence" supported that claim, even though a now-declassified Defense Intelligence Agency report from February 2002 questioned the reliability of the confession because it was likely obtained under torture. In January 2004, al-Libi recanted his "confession," and a month later, the CIA recalled all intelligence reports based on his statements.”

Sen. McCain claimed during the election that

"worked me over harder than they ever had before. For a long time. And they broke me."

Perhaps suggesting that torture can be used to extract information from even a man who is patriotic and loyal enough to one day be a serious candidate for the presidency.

But! He writes in his memoirs “Faith of my Fathers”:

“Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant. Pressed for more useful information, I gave the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line, and said they were members of my squadron. When asked to identify future targets, I simply recited the names of a number of North Vietnamese cities that had already been bombed.”

Elsewhere in his memoir, McCain recalled providing false information to his captors on multiple occasions in order to "suspend the abuse."

McCain also wrote in a Newsweek Column:

“In my experience, abuse of prisoners often produces bad intelligence because under torture a person will say anything he thinks his captors want to hear -- whether it is true or false -- if he believes it will relieve his suffering."

Now imagine for a moment you are sitting down for tea with the men who tortured McCain and they ask you if torture saves lives, what would you tell them?

Now listen, I do not support so many of the decisions that Obama has made, and I truly do not support the notions of big governement. But at some point, and I realized this only later in life, the facts have to outweigh personal belief.

You'd think that torture would work. If you hurt somebody enough you'd think that the truth would come out, but the truth is, and the facts repeatedly show it, that it doesn't work and actually hurts America.

If it worked then it wouldn't be an argument. Everybody would do it if we couldn't prevent another 9/11 with it. But the reality is we can't, we can only cause another 9/11 with it.

It's not about apologizing for America. It's really not. It's simply about what makes sense in furthering our battle against terrorism. It's a tactic like anything else.

[ModerateVoice]

Probably because the people who perpetrated those acts are not interested or attached to OUR Constitution.

Simply put, that Constitution and the fact we object to things like this are what make us different from them...what most would say make us better.

Our potential mistakes are scrutinized, and rightfully so, because we hold ourselves to standards above them.

My original point is that the MSM is more concerned about making the Bush administration out to be the villains while the MSM avoids giving the same treatment to our enemies.

[Lusis]

Is there honestly anything anyone could say or do to make you doubt Obama and your party?

There are more than two parties in this country. Not being a Republican doesn't automatically make you an Obama supporter.

[DaveKlassix]

Oh DAMN, you have uncovered our evil plot! :))

I LOVE this forum, this **** is PRICELESS! You even got the word "jackboot" in! It's an exciting time to be a conservative, huh? You get to live in your own Orwellian fantasy world, where everyone's an anti American traitor but you.

Doug

Ok, than tell us how exactly this benefits the country in anyway, shape or form? The terrorists will "love us more" because of these photos?

[ModerateVoice]

Ok, than tell us how exactly this benefits the country in anyway, shape or form? The terrorists will "love us more" because of these photos?

More liberal guilt will be assuaged...

...Cue the song "Aquarius" from the rock opera Hair.

[akuma]

You also tiptoed around the question.

I'll ask YOU directly now.

Do YOU think there is a positive benefit to releasing these photos?

If so, what would that be?
it proves to a lot of detractors that we dont do dirty crap or wrong things and attempt to cover it up or white wash it

[penner01]

Probably because the people who perpetrated those acts are not interested or attached to OUR Constitution.

Simply put, that Constitution and the fact we object to things like this are what make us different from them...what most would say make us better.

Our potential mistakes are scrutinized, and rightfully so, because we hold ourselves to standards above them.It's not exactly like the MSM is leading the march to defend the constitution is it? Why would that measure in their reasoning why the current event is noteworthy to keep in front of the people and the acts "perpetrated by others" is not?

[penner01]

it proves to a lot of detractors that we dont do dirty crap or wrong things and attempt to cover it up or white wash itOnly to the extent that the Administration wants to paint the picture of themselves on the white horses.

[ModerateVoice]

it proves to a lot of detractors that we dont do dirty crap or wrong things and attempt to cover it up or white wash it

What detractors? Please be specific, because I keep hearing similar statements but I am not hearing which detractors that your side thinks America needs to be "beholdin'" to.

[LJ14]

I only cut most of this out because it is lengthy to post again.....among many valid alternative analysis, this is a good one.

What strikes me though is the comments you made regarding the emotional tone the pictures will strike and your comments regarding slit throats and beheadings.......I am amazed that there is more national outcry over GITMO, and harsh techniques (refusing to call it torture), the belief by some that laws were broken and what will be aroused with the pictures.....than there ever was over photos and videos of what was happening to Americans other than 9/11 itself (a date too few still feel the pain of)

I makes the spit dry up in your mouth a little, doesn't it... to think how cold-blooded the Obama administration is in pursuit of it's goals. :sick:

Already, you can see the left bringing forth the argument that we've only incited the terrorists. Yet by reclassification of secret information for the sake of political gain, what has the Obama administration done put make this information available to our enemies... thus inciting them to supposed further violence? :eh:

An inconvenient fact though is, that the radical Jihadist only wants one of two things from us... conform to Islam or die. They hadn't been "abused" before they attacked us on 9/11, when they attacked the USS Cole, when they made their first attack on the World Trade Center. This argument that we "incite" the terrorist is nonsensical. But you see the liberal left embrace it as a talking point anyway.

The world has gone mad. :wall:

[Gh0sTeR]

I admit that conservatives are going to have to get used to transparancy and accountability from the White House again. Don't worry, you'll get used to it.

:)) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))


Oh, and it's TRANSPARENCY.

[ThatGovernsLeast]

Apparently having an idiotic opinion is more fun than reading so I'll shorten my post.


Originally Posted by DaveKlassix
Ok, than tell us how exactly this benefits the country in anyway, shape or form? The terrorists will "love us more" because of these photos?
More liberal guilt will be assuaged...

...Cue the song "Aquarius" from the rock opera Hair.

It's easy to make fun by saying: "The terrorists will "love us more" because of these photos?"

But yeah,

that's actually true.

It's not about love.

It's about recognizing that most of the people fighting us don't actually want to die for a cause that's really dumb. They actually don't. They've just been confused into doing it by their own propaganda machine.

Any battle is about reducing the number of people fighting you. Whether by killing them, or by convincing them not to fight.

See what I'm getting at?

The combatants hate Al-qaeda just as much as they hate us, but they've been convinced to think that America is this big horrendous monster that will torture their families.

If we stop that image then Al-qaeda is history.

It's just a tactic.

I know it's hard to believe, and you think I'm just a hippy or something, and I swear to you I'm not. I just actually started researching the situation and came to the same conclusion that any reasonable person would.

Every single time we torture somebody we give them a reason to fight us.

By Obama sending the message that this is a new America that doesn't do that and the old government was bad, he's not just pursuing a political agenda, although he also is, he's fighting this war.

[ModerateVoice]

This argument that we "incite" the terrorist is nonsensical. But you see the liberal left embrace it as a talking point anyway.

The world has gone mad. :wall:

I disagree. Those photo's will be used as a recruiting tool.

We also need to be concerned with the stability of Pakistan as the Taliban makes more aggressive moves to take over the country & thus gain control of the Pakistani nukes. Again, these pics become valuable propaganda and recruiting tools to incite hatred against Americans serving in Afghanistan & the Pakistani people who are teetering on the precipice of falling into a chasm of a radical Islamic state under Taliban control.

[ModerateVoice]

By Obama sending the message that this is a new America that doesn't do that and the old government was bad, he's not just pursuing a political agenda, although he also is, he's fighting this war.

There is a very good chance that these photo's will incite violence against our armed services in Afghanistan & Iraq that would not have occurred had these photos not been released.

Any American deaths resulting from the release of these photos is blood that is on Obama's hands.

[ThatGovernsLeast]

I disagree. Those photo's will be used as a recruiting tool.

I know you do. You're probably right as it stands now, which is why this can't just be a one time thing, but has to become a practice.

Yes releasing those photos does both of these two things:

1st. It says, that America has done terrible things in the past to your people. That will undoubtedly be used as a recruiting tool. The thing that makes that ok, is it was already being used as a recruiting tool as much as it could be so it doesn't actually make the situation any worse.

2nd. It shows that America is changing. There is a new sheriff in town, so to speak. These people in the middle east. They don't want to die fighting us. They want to live out their lives with their families. And if for a moment they believe that America is changing and is actually out to liberate them and help them, just like we tried to do in Iraq, then they won't want to die for their own tyrant warlords, who they hate.

but the 2nd, in the long run, is so much more valuable than the first, because the first is already the status quo.

[LJ14]

The combatants hate Al-qaeda just as much as they hate us, but they've been convinced to think that America is this big horrendous monster that will torture their families.

If we stop that image then Al-qaeda is history.

It's just a tactic.


Yeah is IS a tactic... a political tactic done in order that Obama should accomplish his statist goals. (See my post #59 on page 6 for opinion on that.)

Here's the fly in your ointment. These memos and these photos didn't have to be released. That was a CHOICE made by Obama. Now, if this so-called "torture" incites our enemies to violence, why would Obama CHOOSE to act in a way that would incite our enemies to violence???

[ModerateVoice]

I know you do. You're probably right as it stands now, which is why this can't just be a one time thing, but has to become a practice.

Yes releasing those photos does both of these two things:

1st. It says, that America has done terrible things in the past to your people. That will undoubtedly be used as a recruiting tool. The thing that makes that ok, is it was already being used as a recruiting tool as much as it could be so it doesn't actually make the situation any worse.

2nd. It shows that America is changing. There is a new sheriff in town, so to speak. These people in the middle east. They don't want to die fighting us. They want to live out their lives with their families. And if for a moment they believe that America is changing and is actually out to liberate them and help them, just like we tried to do in Iraq, then they won't want to die for their own tyrant warlords, who they hate.

but the 2nd, in the long run, is so much more valuable than the first, because the first is already the status quo.

So, if an American soldier dies as a result of these photos being released, you're okay with it because you feel it makes Obama look good in the eyes of the world?!

[ThatGovernsLeast]

Yeah is IS a tactic... a political tactic done in order that Obama should accomplish his statist goals. (See my post on page 6 for opinion on that.)

Here's the fly in your ointment. These memos and these photos didn't have to be released. That was a CHOICE made by Obama. Now, if this so-called "torture" incites our enemies to violence, why would Obama CHOOSE to act in a way that would incite our enemies to violence???

It's not a fly at all. It's because ""torture"" was already being used to incite our enemies to violence, before Obama was even on the scene. By not releasing the photos he allows the status quo to continue, it would allow the terrorist propaganda to just keep going. He just sends the message that everything your tyrant warlords are saying is true. But by confronting the myth and exposing the past practices it fights the warlord's propaganda.

[mgifford]

I did my time in Vietnam, served as a police officer for 23 years, but I've never seen anyone or thing that scares me like the fool Obama.
It makes me want to just yell at his worshippers to boot him before America sinks. However, it's always difficult to tell someone to boot his messiah.

[ThatGovernsLeast]

So, if an American soldier dies as a result of these photos being released, you're okay with it because you feel it makes Obama look good in the eyes of the world?!

When did I ever say that? I would really prefer that you didn't accuse me of something so absurd and horrific before even understanding what I'm trying to say. Honestly, I'm not an Obama supporter. I just think what he did here was right, because when I heard about it I researched it, rather than just went with my gut instinct. Not a single American soldier who wasn't going to die already in this horrible battle will die because of these photos. It will instead decrease the recruitment of terrorists.

Seriously. The reason why I'm arguing now, is because you didn't read my longer post where a interrogation expert himself wrote that confronting the myth that we torture wantonly saves more lives than torture ever could.

[penner01]

Yeah is IS a tactic... a political tactic done in order that Obama should accomplish his statist goals. (See my post #59 on page 6 for opinion on that.)

Here's the fly in your ointment. These memos and these photos didn't have to be released. That was a CHOICE made by Obama. Now, if this so-called "torture" incites our enemies to violence, why would Obama CHOOSE to act in a way that would incite our enemies to violence??? have no idea whether the release of these items will incite anything. My issue is that there is no positive purpose to be served by doing it. Are we supposed to really think the world will think more of us because we are willing to hang our dirty laundry in the yard? What crap.

Are they going to pursue anything? I don't think so. Would a prosecuting attorney publish all their evidence before they had even put the case together to go to trial? That would make an attempt at prosecution pretty fruitless wouldn't it.......(especially if they had Mark Levin for the defense...:) just a little humor) But, maybe the prosecutor would leak the evidence if he thought it might further his/her career.

[ModerateVoice]

When did I ever say that? I would really prefer that you didn't accuse me of something so absurd and horrific before even understanding what I'm trying to say. Not a single American soldier who wasn't going to die already in this horrible battle will die because of these photos. It will decrease the recruitment.

Seriously. The reason why I'm arguing now, is because you didn't read my longer post where a interrogation expert himself wrote that confronting the myth that we torture wantonly saves more lives than torture ever could.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but your previous post could lead several readers to draw the same conclusion as I arrived at. Thank you for clarifying.

The way you typed your previous post drew me to that conclusion you feel that releasing these pics is going to change world perception.

Politicians around the world are not naive; they know EXACTLY who we are and what we stand for. I refuse to acknowledge any good will come from the release of these photos, so we will have to agree to disagree.

[ThatGovernsLeast]

have no idea whether the release of these items will incite anything. My issue is that there is no positive purpose to be served by doing it. Are we supposed to really think the world will think more of us because we are willing to hang our dirty laundry in the yard? What crap. .

Yes! They will. It's not crap. Sometimes the facts are contrary to what you gut believe. It's true! I wish that wasn't how it is, but it is.

Did you know that the speed of light is constant for all frames of reference? It makes no sense, but it's true!

As I wrote before:

This was written by Matthew Alexander in the Washington Post, who
“served for 14 years in the U.S. Air Force, began my career as a Special Operations pilot flying helicopters, saw combat in Bosnia and Kosovo, became an Air Force counterintelligence agent, then volunteered to go to Iraq to work as a senior interrogator.”

“Amid the chaos, four other Air Force criminal investigators and I joined an elite team of interrogators attempting to locate Zarqawi. What I soon discovered about our methods astonished me. The Army was still conducting interrogations according to the Guantanamo Bay model: Interrogators were nominally using the methods outlined in the U.S. Army Field Manual, the interrogators' bible, but they were pushing in every way possible to bend the rules -- and often break them. I don't have to belabor the point; dozens of newspaper articles and books have been written about the misconduct that resulted. These interrogations were based on fear and control; they often resulted in torture and abuse.”

“I refused to participate in such practices, and a month later, I extended that prohibition to the team of interrogators I was assigned to lead. I taught the members of my unit a new methodology -- one based on building rapport with suspects, showing cultural understanding and using good old-fashioned brainpower to tease out information. I personally conducted more than 300 interrogations, and I supervised more than 1,000. The methods my team used are not classified (they're listed in the unclassified Field Manual), but the way we used them was, I like to think, unique. We got to know our enemies, we learned to negotiate with them, and we adapted criminal investigative techniques to our work (something that the Field Manual permits, under the concept of "ruses and trickery"). It worked. Our efforts started a chain of successes that ultimately led to Zarqawi.”

“Over the course of this renaissance in interrogation tactics, our attitudes changed. We no longer saw our prisoners as the stereotypical al-Qaeda evildoers we had been repeatedly briefed to expect; we saw them as Sunni Iraqis, often family men protecting themselves from Shiite militias and trying to ensure that their fellow Sunnis would still have some access to wealth and power in the new Iraq. Most surprisingly, they turned out to despise al-Qaeda in Iraq as much as they despised us”

“Our new interrogation methods led to one of the war's biggest breakthroughs: We convinced one of Zarqawi's associates to give up the al-Qaeda in Iraq leader's location. On June 8, 2006, U.S. warplanes dropped two 500-pound bombs on a house where Zarqawi was meeting with other insurgent leaders.”[/QUOTE]

If you haven’t started a chain of success that ultimately led to the death of a monstrous terrorist, then you can’t argue with this man. His method clearly works. The real question is does his method work better than torture.

“I know the counter-argument well- that we need the rough stuff for the truly hard cases, such as battle-hardened core leaders of al-Qaeda, not just run-of-the-mill Iraqi insurgents. But that's not always true: We turned several hard cases, including some foreign fighters, by using our new techniques. A few of them never abandoned the jihadist cause but still gave up critical information. One actually told me, "I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate.””

[rodlang]

It's not a fly at all. It's because ""torture"" was already being used to incite our enemies to violence, before Obama was even on the scene. By not releasing the photos he allows the status quo to continue, it would allow the terrorist propaganda to just keep going. He just sends the message that everything your tyrant warlords are saying is true. But by confronting the myth and exposing the past practices it fights the warlord's propaganda.

Obama has said we will no longer use these EIT's so I don't get the point to releasing yet more "Abu Graib" type photos. What will likely happen is:

-- the photos will be shown on TV and internet every day for two weeks with endless commentary on the evil Americans.
--there will possibly be a reaction/riots in the Muslim streets incicted by Al Quada.
--our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq could be in more danger.
--renewed calls for prosecution of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld by left wing media outlets
--Keith Olbermann gets to do more special commentary/rants
--FoxNews decries release of photos

I just don't see the good that we get from releasing more photos. We saw enough with Abu Graib.

[mgifford]

Obama has said we will no longer use these EIT's so I don't get the point to releasing yet more "Abu Graib" type photos. What will likely happen is:

-- the photos will be shown on TV and internet every day for two weeks with endless commentary on the evil Americans.
--there will possibly be a reaction/riots in the Muslim streets incicted by Al Quada.
--our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq could be in more danger.
--renewed calls for prosecution of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld by left wing media outlets
--Keith Olbermann gets to do more special commentary/rants
--FoxNews decries release of photos

I just don't see the good that we get from releasing more photos. We saw enough with Abu Graib.

The good may be that he's kissing up to his "Islamic" brothers, bet ya!

[ModerateVoice]

The good may be that he's kissing up to his "Islamic" brothers, bet ya!

I actually think Obama is gonna take a hit in the popularity polls over the release of these photos.

[HeadOnStraight]

The liberals running amok in our government are getting crazier by the day... We are now close to releasing "prison abuse" photos from Afghanistan and Iraq. Our nation’s enemies must be rolling on the floor laughing over our inexcusable stupidity.

Watering down the definition of torture to include water boarding and insects was bad enough (akin to redefining jay-walking as a felony)… and NOW THIS.

This is insane, people.
When will 0bama release the pictures of enemy combatants after they have been shot by American soldiers, and ten taken prisoner? I'll bet those would make people mad too, oh wait, those probably are some of the pictures they will release.

Haven't we already establish that Ah-boo Grrrrab was a group of people gone bad, aren't some of them serving time in prison?

This is all part of 0bama elevating himself, "Looky me, I'm so much better then these people,love me, adore me, embrace me"

Just like a tin pot dictator, Latin American colonel, they vilify and persecute their predecessor, so everyone will love them instead.

I get this feeling, every time 0bama gives a backhanded slap to Bush, or refers to the arrogant, divisive, ignorant, selfish and inward-looking America, he hears a choir of voices in his head chant "Praise be to 0bama, savior of us all".

[ThatGovernsLeast]

Obama has said we will no longer use these EIT's so I don't get the point to releasing yet more "Abu Graib" type photos. What will likely happen is:

-- the photos will be shown on TV and internet every day for two weeks with endless commentary on the evil Americans.
--there will possibly be a reaction/riots in the Muslim streets incicted by Al Quada.
--our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq could be in more danger.
--renewed calls for prosecution of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld by left wing media outlets
--Keith Olbermann gets to do more special commentary/rants
--FoxNews decries release of photos

I just don't see the good that we get from releasing more photos. We saw enough with Abu Graib.

Let all of that happen except for the danger for our troops. Honestly, our troops are already in plenty danger before the release of the photos so this doesn't really hurt, especially as you point out, there is already enough with Abu Graib.

But everything else you described is good for our cause. Fox News gets to do what they do. Olbermann continues to do what he does. Nothing matters there.

The calls for prosecution will never actually work, so nothing happens there.

And then the riots actually help us, because angry people in their streets will convince people that their warlords aren't protecting them. And they'll hate Al-qaeda even more.

You see. Riots happen because people are angry. If they aren't rioting and getting it all out by hurting themselves and their own image, then they are organizing and forming armies to fight us. Either way that anger has to come out. Which would you prefer?

[LJ14]

have no idea whether the release of these items will incite anything. My issue is that there is no positive purpose to be served by doing it. Are we supposed to really think the world will think more of us because we are willing to hang our dirty laundry in the yard? What crap.

Are they going to pursue anything? I don't think so. Would a prosecuting attorney publish all their evidence before they had even put the case together to go to trial? That would make an attempt at prosecution pretty fruitless wouldn't it.......(especially if they had Mark Levin for the defense...:) just a little humor) But, maybe the prosecutor would leak the evidence if he thought it might further his/her career.

I doubt they'll actually try to prosecute anyone. Even Obama can't get away with arbitrarily charging one without charging all. That would mean investigating people like Nancy Pelosi, who already can't keep her story straight on what she knew and when she knew it. Also, if he wants to go down this road of prosecuting out-going administrations... well, that's probably not the precedent he wants to set.

The "purpose" is wholly political. It has nothing whatsoever to do with national security or combating terrorism.

[mgifford]

I actually think Obama is gonna take a hit in the popularity polls over the release of these photos.

Yes but he seems to be where he will stay for at least 4 years, regardless of what he does. The Dems. have waited for years to get the power from all three entities, so they can spend like drunken Democrats and have all the entitlement programs that can be imagined.

We won't have an America soon, at least not a free one.
I'd rather have Clinton, both Clintons or maybe John sKerry, anyone but this fool.

[busy-bee]

The liberals running amok in our government are getting crazier by the day... We are now close to releasing "prison abuse" photos from Afghanistan and Iraq. Our nation’s enemies must be rolling on the floor laughing over our inexcusable stupidity.

Watering down the definition of torture to include water boarding and insects was bad enough (akin to redefining jay-walking as a felony)… and NOW THIS.

This is insane, people.

This is exactly what the "terrorists" wanted and now got it done: the distruction of the US within is on it's way! The left delivers it to them !

[penner01]

Yes! They will. It's not crap. Sometimes the facts are contrary to what you gut believe. It's true! I wish that wasn't how it is, but it is.

Did you know that the speed of light is constant for all frames of reference? It makes no sense, but it's true!

As I wrote before:

This was written by Matthew Alexander in the Washington Post, who
I already read your previous post - every word and I appreciate Mr. Alexander's thoughts. It didn't need to be posted again. But he is writing of his experience with interrogation......what has that got to do with whether or not the release of these photos and documents will give the world warm fuzzy feelings about us? And though you insist it's true.......I totally disagree.

[penner01]

This is exactly what the "terrorists" wanted and now got it done: the distruction of the US within is on it's way! The left delivers it to them !You know.....they want us dead and they would love to attian that goal. But you are right about destruction from within.....they might be winning.

[busy-bee]

The "why" is obvious. The self-loathing, anti-American statists on the Left are doing everything in their power to destroy this country's history and culture, and remake it into their beloved socialist/fascist pipedream. A utopian fantasy that FAILS miserably everywhere it is tried and brings nothing but pain and suffering to those who live under its big-government jackboot.

It wasn’t just an election we went through last year… it appears more and more to have been a coup.

a coup by Soros and his dirty money & followers

[7426k]

People have the question perfectly bass-ackwards, in true conservatarian form.

This is a question of government's right to keep things from it's populace. The government doesn't get to keep anything private unless it can be demonstrated that releasing it will serve the public good. It must release anything private unless it can be shown that doing so would create harm.

It's not a question of "what good does it do". That doesn't matter a ****ing wink. By that standard, the government could hide just about everything.

Remember when conservatives believed in civil liberties and transparent government?

[busy-bee]

You know.....they want us dead and they would love to attian that goal. But you are right about destruction from within.....they might be winning.

Well, I don't think they (libs) want us not living anymore ...because then they do not have anyone they can take our income away (=taxes)...

[skprtod914]

Keep it coming, Mr. President. Show us who you really are.

[ModerateVoice]

People have the question perfectly bass-ackwards, in true conservatarian form.

This is a question of government's right to keep things from it's populace. The government doesn't get to keep anything private unless it can be shown that doing so would create harm.

It must release anything private unless it can be shown that doing so would create harm.

It's not a question of "what good does it do". That doesn't matter a ****ing wink. By that standard, the government could hide just about everything.

Remember when conservatives believed in civil liberties and transparent government?

With all due respect, I believe it is you who have it backwards.

We are in a war, there are troops in Afghanistan and Iraq who may become targets as a result of the release of these photos.

Libs want to whine all day long about making a terrorist uncomfortable via waterboarding, but have no problem with the release of photos that could get our troops killed...Unbelievable!!!

[penner01]

Well, I don't think they (libs) want us not living anymore ...because then they do not have anyone they can take our income away (=taxes)...:)) Sorry, I meant terrorists. You actually referred to terrorists in the post I commented on. Nah, I don't think libs want us dead.....well, maybe.

[Greyghost]

Oh DAMN, you have uncovered our evil plot! :))

I LOVE this forum, this **** is PRICELESS! You even got the word "jackboot" in! It's an exciting time to be a conservative, huh? You get to live in your own Orwellian fantasy world, where everyone's an anti American traitor but you.

Doug

This is the kind of crap that ****es me off the most. Here you are making this along with every other argument into some kind of right wing humorous story. Get your damn head out of the sand, this will put our troops in far greater danger and you laugh about it. Stop living in a damn box. Not everything is a democrat or republican issue. This is an issue about making our troops less safe.

I'm sure you won't agree because of die hard allegiance to this worthless president and government. Take a good look in the mirror and realize you are in support of something that WILL get American soldiers killed.

[LJ14]

It's not a fly at all. It's because ""torture"" was already being used to incite our enemies to violence, before Obama was even on the scene. By not releasing the photos he allows the status quo to continue, it would allow the terrorist propaganda to just keep going. He just sends the message that everything your tyrant warlords are saying is true. But by confronting the myth and exposing the past practices it fights the warlord's propaganda.

You've denied partisan hackery, but frankly that's a little hard to believe when you can't seem to see that Obama's CHOICE to release this information, which he claims incites terrorist violence, is in essence... a CHOICE to incite terrorist violence.

For Obama to accuse his own countrymen of "torturing" prisoners and then release classified information to make his case... simply confirms the perception of our enemies that we "torture" prisoners. In this, Obama himself becomes the "recruitment tool" because that information was CLASSIFIED and therefore unconfirmed to the enemy..

Bottom line.... this was NOT "torture". These "enhanced interrogation techniques" didn't spill one drop of terrorist blood. But we can't say that for our own captured soldiers and citizens, who have been murdered most heinously, their deaths filmed for publication, their bodies defiled. So if anybody should be "incited"... really... it should be us.

[ThatGovernsLeast]

I already read your previous post - every word and I appreciate Mr. Alexander's thoughts. It didn't need to be posted again. But he is writing of his experience interrogation......what has that got to do with whether or not the release of these photos and documents will give the world warm fuzzy feelings about us? And though you insist it's true.......I totally disagree.

His experience in interrogation teaches us that it is not always about fighting, but respect. The way that we win this war is through a battle of respect, not guns. They've got more people willing to blow themselves up than we have money to spend on bullets. So we cannot win that way. The way we win is by demonstrating to these people that their leaders do not respect them or their cause, but are instead manipulating them with propaganda to fight their own causes.

We can pull these people away from their ruthless leaders and stop them from fighting us by showing them decency instead of brutality. Alexander was able to take down their leaders this way. The fuzzy feelings you demean, it's important. The pictures represent that we respect their lives and are willing to confront what the previous administration did to them. It demonstrates that we are willing to meet them on equal grounds, even though we all know that that is not true. But if even a single combatant is pulled away from Al-qaeda this way, then all the lives that combatant would end are saved.

[BillyM 2007]

I admit that conservatives are going to have to get used to transparancy and accountability from the White House again.
Oh, please. You can't really believe such nonsense.

There is NO transparency... the WH selectively releases, lies, and spins. If there was real transparency, we would have had an opportunity to take a look at a multi-TRILLION dollar power-grab bill prior to it being signed.

This guy is spinning you like a top... and you're letting him.

[7426k]

With all due respect, I believe it is you who have it backwards.

Well, with all due respect I have about 220 years of case law on my side.

We are in a war, there are troops in Afghanistan and Iraq who may become targets as a result of the release of these photos.

If the courts believed that releasing these photos would materially endanger anyone, they would prevent their release. After 5 years and several steps in the court system, the courts have not made such a claim.

[busy-bee]

The question is WHY? What good does this do for the country? They can't possible think this is good for the US

They wanted "CHANGE". Does anyone know what it meant? They were all over the press saying they would be better for the people.. blablabla... only the uninformed voted for that... and how many were "uninformed" wow!

World-History repeats itself.

[timjy]

Just amazing these america hating terrorist lovers have really forgotten what happened on 9/11 .they should be so proud to kiss the feet of terrorists and belittle our armed forces.I wonder if bin laden has planted people in the u.s to do this.He said it would come from within.

[LJ14]

This is a question of government's right to keep things from it's populace. The government doesn't get to keep anything private unless it can be demonstrated that releasing it will serve the public good. It must release anything private unless it can be shown that doing so would create harm.

Which doesn't explain why he'd release the information... when FOUR former and current CIA heads told him not to do it. The reason being that each of them believe it would be harmful.

[ModerateVoice]

Oh, please. You can't really believe such nonsense.

There is NO transparency... the WH selectively releases, lies, and spins. If there was real transparency, we would have had an opportunity to take a look at a multi-TRILLION dollar power-grab bill prior to it being signed.

This guy is spinning you like a top... and you're letting him.

Yep...Obama believes in transparency when it is politically advantageous.

[penner01]

His experience in interrogation teaches us that it is not always about fighting, but respect. The way that we win this war is through a battle of respect, not guns. They've got more people willing to blow themselves up than we have money to spend on bullets. So we cannot win that way. The way we win is by demonstrating to these people that their leaders do not respect them or their cause, but are instead manipulating them with propaganda to fight their own causes.

We can pull these people away from their ruthless leaders and stop them from fighting us by showing them decency instead of brutality. Alexander was able to take down their leaders this way. The fuzzy feelings you demean, it's important. The pictures represent that we respect their lives and are willing to confront what the previous administration did to them. It demonstrates that we are willing to meet them on equal grounds, even though we all know that that is not true. But if even a single combatant is pulled away from Al-qaeda this way, then all the lives that combatant would end are saved.Well, I am not yet convinced this isn't simply a "we need to be nice" attitude but let me ask......you said you researched......what have you found besides Mr. Alexander? Is this all about one source?

[BillyM 2007]

Just like a tin pot dictator, Latin American colonel, they vilify and persecute their predecessor, so everyone will love them instead.
It's only a matter of time before we start seeing mirrored sunglasses.

[ThatGovernsLeast]

You've denied partisan hackery, but frankly that's a little hard to believe when you can't seem to see that Obama's CHOICE to release this information, which he claims incites terrorist violence, is in essence... a CHOICE to incite terrorist violence.

For Obama to accuse his own countrymen of "torturing" prisoners and then release classified information to make his case... simply confirms the perception of our enemies that we "torture" prisoners. In this, Obama himself becomes the "recruitment tool" because that information was CLASSIFIED and therefore unconfirmed to the enemy..

Bottom line.... this was NOT "torture". These "enhanced interrogation techniques" didn't spill one drop of terrorist blood. But we can't say that for our own captured soldiers and citizens, who have been murdered most heinously, their deaths filmed for publication, their bodies defiled. So if anybody should be "incited"... really... it should be us.

It must be hard to imagine somebody who truly doesn't care about name brands. Republicans, Democrats, they are all out to screw us for their own greed, which is why I stand again and again by the idea of the government which governs best, governs least. But, truly, I assure you, I was truly livid the day I heard Obama bailed out the banks. Just as I was truly livid the day I heard Bush struck down Posse Comitatus and has stationed troops within the United States.

It's not about whether it's torture or not. It's about doing the smart thing. I don't care whether a republican does it, a democrat does it, an american does it, or a nazi does it. Anything that complies with the facts complies with the facts.

What you are not grasping is Obama is confirming that we did torture prisoners, but won't anymore.

That is huge. It says so much.

Don't you see? It makes Bush the enemy, NOT THE UNITED STATES.

Average people can take out all their rage on the past administration instead of it's citizens. Which, may sound partisan, but it's not.

I just don't like to see Americans killed.

[7426k]

Which doesn't explain why he'd release the information... when FOUR former and current CIA heads told him not to do it. The reason being that each of them believe it would be harmful.
"he" didn't release any information. After five years of court battles, the courts have stated unequivocally that the pictures are subject to the FOIA request

[penner01]

Well, with all due respect I have about 220 years of case law on my side.



If the courts believed that releasing these photos would materially endanger anyone, they would prevent their release. After 5 years and several steps in the court system, the courts have not made such a claim.Even in your scenario......he had qualified persons advising him that there was good reason to not release them and they were still classified until he made his decision. So they did have cause to deny the FOI request. So your point is moot. He made the decision to release regardless that they were classified and it would be harmful........so we do in fact have every reason to question what purpose is served by doing so.

[bigtwnvin]

what is really going on right now behind the smoke & mirror of this diversion?

Hoo boy chairman maobama nationalizing the banks, credit cards, mortgages and health care comrade!
Step one by downgrading bank stock to "common" welcome to socialism :wall:
Hugo Chavez must be doing a dance

[ThatGovernsLeast]

Well, I am not yet convinced this isn't simply a "we need to be nice" attitude but let me ask......you said you researched......what have you found besides Mr. Alexander? Is this all about one source?

Despite claiming to already have read my first post I see you didn't notice that I also quoted senator McCain saying the same thing on three separate occasions, but here is something else for good measure:

Absolutely. And could I take a few seconds on that? because I think it's important and I think it's what America is all about and what kind of country we are. We should never, ever torture anyone who is in the custody of the United States of America because (applause) because the struggle we're in with radical Islamic fundamentalism which is going to be with us for decades, and that is that it's a military,diplomatic, intelligence and ideological struggle. If we're not any better than our enemies, then doesn't it make it harder for young people to choose.
I was in Bagdad in Thanksgiving of last year. I met with a high ranking, former high ranking member of al Qaeda*. I asked him, "how did you do so well after the initial military success of the Americans and the coalition forces had. He said two thing: on was the lawlessness that took place after the Americans and their allies won the military victory. But he said the second was Abu Ghraib. He said Abu Ghraib was my greatest recruiting tool. Everybody here knows what Abu Ghraib was. So my point is that for the future of this country, we have to make sure that we remain a nation that does not do things that our enemies do.
And I promise you, my friends, that I'll close Guantanamo Bay and we will never torture another person in our custody again. (wild applause)
I'll make my further answers shorter, but that's a very important question about what kind of a country we are and what kind of country we've been and what kind of a country we'll be for the 21st century.

-Sen McCain.

That line. "For Young People to Choose."

Exactly what I'm arguing.

[LJ14]

His experience in interrogation teaches us that it is not always about fighting, but respect. The way that we win this war is through a battle of respect, not guns. They've got more people willing to blow themselves up than we have money to spend on bullets. So we cannot win that way. The way we win is by demonstrating to these people that their leaders do not respect them or their cause, but are instead manipulating them with propaganda to fight their own causes.

We can pull these people away from their ruthless leaders and stop them from fighting us by showing them decency instead of brutality. Alexander was able to take down their leaders this way. The fuzzy feelings you demean, it's important. The pictures represent that we respect their lives and are willing to confront what the previous administration did to them. It demonstrates that we are willing to meet them on equal grounds, even though we all know that that is not true. But if even a single combatant is pulled away from Al-qaeda this way, then all the lives that combatant would end are saved.

So, by your math, we could totally have avoided WWII if we'd given Adolph Hitler an understanding hug, maybe some chocolates and a teddy bear. (????)

C'mon. Nobody can be this naive. :rolleyes:

[7426k]

Even in your scenario......he had qualified persons advising him that there was good reason to not release them and they were still classified until he made his decision. So they did have cause to deny the FOI request. So your point is moot. He made the decision to release regardless that they were classified and it would be harmful........so we do in fact have every reason to question what purpose is served by doing so.

He did not make the decision to release them. You can repeat that until your blue in the face but you will remain wrong. "He" is complying with an order from the courts to release the information.

Despite attempts over the past 8 years to create an all-powerful executive branch, the administration is required to respect the decisions of the judicial branch.

[Trinka]

Hoo boy chairman maobama nationalizing the banks, credit cards, mortgages and health care comrade!
Step one by downgrading bank stock to "common" welcome to socialism :wall:
Hugo Chavez must be doing a dance
You forgot one...from what I just heard...even the tax cuts for the middle class are gone now....hmmm guess that downsizes the 95% number.........

[BillyM 2007]

Yep...Obama believes in transparency when it is politically advantageous.
He believes in TRANSLUCANCY. Seeing what they are up to CLEARLY would make their unprecedented power grab impossible. That’s why they can claim things like “stimulus” when what they are really doing is nationalizing everything in sight. Or that they are cutting the deficit in HALF while CBO scores them at 10 TRILLION DOLLARS and warns them that their spending is reckless and unsustainable.

It’s just one lie and manipulation after another with this bottom-feeding, slime-ball administration.

What they are doing to this once great country is truely sickening.

[LJ14]

"he" didn't release any information. After five years of court battles, the courts have stated unequivocally that the pictures are subject to the FOIA request

No. The government withdrew it's appeal. They could've fought it to the Supreme Court; they elected not to.

[Trinka]

You forgot one...from what I just heard...even the tax cuts for the middle class are gone now....hmmm guess that downsizes the 95% number.........
Oh and it looks like the teas. is getting ready to take out the ceo of citigroup like the ceo of gm

[ModerateVoice]

Well, with all due respect I have about 220 years of case law on my side.



If the courts believed that releasing these photos would materially endanger anyone, they would prevent their release. After 5 years and several steps in the court system, the courts have not made such a claim.

There is the argument that this issue could have been run all the way up to the Supreme Court, but it has not been allowed to go that far because that court is still in the conservative majority. A conservative Supreme Court decision would likely favor supressing these pictures, the far left didn't want to chance that political loss, and so Obama approved the release rather than take the chance that the Supreme Court would rule against him.

The net result, is that Obama & liberals once again demonstrate that the court system is only useful to them when liberal activist judges are certain to rule in their favor.

That issue aside, will you recant your support of these pics if it comes to light that a suicide bomber kills several of our troops as a result of this bombing? C'mon, there is common sense and then there is taking a blindly partisan position.

[BillyM 2007]

"he" didn't release any information. After five years of court battles, the courts have stated unequivocally that the pictures are subject to the FOIA request
Total BS. It is plausible deniability. They have dropped any and all efforts to block it... which is a wink-wink, nod-nod way of getting their way without having direct fingerprints on it.

That is how this sleazy adminstration operates.

[7426k]

No. The government withdrew it's appeal. They could've fought it to the Supreme Court; they elected not to.

That's because they found it pointless to continue - they weren't going to win the case. And there's not even anything noting that they had a case for appeal. You can't just appeal for good looks.

[ThatGovernsLeast]

So, by your math, we could totally have avoided WWII if we'd given Adolph Hitler an understanding hug, maybe some chocolates and a teddy bear. (????)

C'mon. Nobody can be this naive. :rolleyes:

I don't mean to keep hurting your arguments, but actually most historians would agree that one of the biggest causes of WW2 was the socio-economic cause. The reparations that the rest of the world made Germany pay after WW1 stagnated their economy, which resulted in massive unemployment and depression. This resulted in anger which an insane Fascist Warlord like Hitler is able to capitalize upon to organize a movement. He was able to manipulate this entire "Us versus Them" attitude into making the average citizenry hate everyone who was unlike them and feel cheated out of what they deserved. If hitler's propaganda had been stopped, yes I do believe WW2 could have been avoided. If the people of germany didn't feel betrayed by the world maybe they wouldn't want to die for an obvious lunatic.

Actually that is an interesting analogy for what's going on now.

[7426k]

There is the argument that this issue could have been run all the way up to the Supreme Court, but it has not been allowed to go that far because that court is still in the conservative majority. A conservative Supreme Court decision would likely favor supressing these pictures, the far left didn't want to chance that political loss, and so Obama approved the release rather than take the chance that the Supreme Court would rule against him.

Once again, Obama did not approve the release. He complied with a court order.

[BillyM 2007]

That's because they found it pointless to continue - they weren't going to win the case.
OMG. What is WRONG with you people, anyway? Please don't tell me you actually believe stuff like this.

[BillyM 2007]

I don't mean to keep hurting your arguments, but actually most historians would agree that one of the biggest causes of WW2 was the socio-economic cause. The reparations that the rest of the world made Germany pay after WW1 stagnated their economy, which resulted in massive unemployment and depression. This resulted in anger which an insane Fascist Warlord like Hitler is able to capitalize upon to organize a movement. He was able to manipulate this entire "Us versus Them" attitude into making the average citizenry hate everyone who was unlike them and feel cheated out of what they deserved. If hitler's propaganda had been stopped, yes I do believe WW2 could have been avoided. If the people of germany didn't feel betrayed by the world maybe they wouldn't want to die for an obvious lunatic.

Actually that is an interesting analogy for what's going on now.
What is little understood is the incredibly tight link between Saddam's Baath party and Nazism... which continues to this day.

[LJ14]

What you are not grasping is Obama is confirming that we did torture prisoners, but won't anymore.

That is huge. It says so much.

Don't you see? It makes Bush the enemy, NOT THE UNITED STATES.


You're counting on them hating Bush.. but they attacked the World Trade Center and the USS Cole under Clinton. Now, honestly, who in the world was more happy-fun than Bill Clinton? :eh:

It's not about our president or our leadership. The radical Jihadist hates US, the people. They hate our western lifestyle. They believe it to be an affront to their own. In this, THEY CANNOT BE APPEASED.

Now, do you see why it "says so much" for Obama to confirm the perceptions of our enemies? When you take the "hating Bush instead of the American people" argument off the table, all that's left is betrayal of our national security by our current administration.

[ThatGovernsLeast]

What is little understood is the incredibly tight link between Saddam's Baath party and Nazism... which continues to this day.

To clarify for those who don't fully grasp that somebody can answer an analogy and say something not related to everything else said in a conversation.

No, I don't think that there is a link between Saddam's Baath party and Nazism.

I do however believe that socio-economics can share similarities between two situations. It's easy to make poor uneducated people think that a foreign enemy is out to destroy them at every turn. And the way to counteract that is to educate people.

[Plasmaball]

With all due respect, I believe it is you who have it backwards.

We are in a war, there are troops in Afghanistan and Iraq who may become targets as a result of the release of these photos.

Libs want to whine all day long about making a terrorist uncomfortable via waterboarding, but have no problem with the release of photos that could get our troops killed...Unbelievable!!!

war is nothing more than an excuse.

[ModerateVoice]

Once again, Obama did not approve the release. He complied with a court order.

The Obama administration could have easily exercised his presidential powers to keep these pics from being published until the argument was exhausted through the Supreme Court. From ABC News:

Dr. Mark M. Lowenthal, former Assistant Director of Central Intelligence for Analysis and Production, tells ABC News that the Obama administration should have taken the case all the way to the Supreme Court.The issue is one in which the far-left is seeking to damage the previous administration; plain and simple. The ACLU, as an example, is notorious for filing lawsuits of this type to advance their agenda. The one's paying the price for this crap is our troops on the front lines.

I'm all for transparency, but not when it has the potential (however marginal you may think it is) to place our troops in any greater danger.

[penner01]

Despite claiming to already have read my first post I see you didn't notice that I also quoted senator McCain saying the same thing on three separate occasions, but here is something else for good measure:



-Sen McCain.

That line. "For Young People to Choose."

Exactly what I'm arguing.I respect Sen McCain's service but what I read about his comments are tempered in my mind. It isn't rocket science to know that bogus information is going to get passed. You think our operatives aren't trained to sift through that? Have you not read about their corroborating efforts? None of the information is taken at face value. I'm still not seeing what research was done that demonstrates hanging our dirty laundry is going to make the world like us.

[LJ14]

I don't mean to keep hurting your arguments, but actually most historians would agree that one of the biggest causes of WW2 was the socio-economic cause. The reparations that the rest of the world made Germany pay after WW1 stagnated their economy, which resulted in massive unemployment and depression. This resulted in anger which an insane Fascist Warlord like Hitler is able to capitalize upon to organize a movement. He was able to manipulate this entire "Us versus Them" attitude into making the average citizenry hate everyone who was unlike them and feel cheated out of what they deserved. If hitler's propaganda had been stopped, yes I do believe WW2 could have been avoided. If the people of germany didn't feel betrayed by the world maybe they wouldn't want to die for an obvious lunatic.

Actually that is an interesting analogy for what's going on now.

So, your argument then is that we should all have converted to Islam and adopted Sharia law decades ago. Good one. :razz:

[penner01]

To clarify for those who don't fully grasp that somebody can answer an analogy and say something not related to everything else said in a conversation.

No, I don't think that there is a link between Saddam's Baath party and Nazism.

I do however believe that socio-economics can share similarities between two situations. It's easy to make poor uneducated people think that a foreign enemy is out to destroy them at every turn. And the way to counteract that is to educate people.So, we made up the video threats and statements conveyed via Arab media and repeated attempts such as 9/11? I'm getting closer to understanding.

[Trinka]

war is nothing more than an excuse.
What will the excuse be when our soldiers blood is running in the streets....say next week.......and the people's blood of other contries when the extremists start their killing in the next week or so.......we've all seen this before....and we know how it ends.......BLOOD

[ModerateVoice]

war is nothing more than an excuse.

Are you libs ever supportive or protective troops on any issue?!

[jprin]

There is a very good chance that these photo's will incite violence against our armed services in Afghanistan & Iraq that would not have occurred had these photos not been released.

Any American deaths resulting from the release of these photos is blood that is on Obama's hands.

So, owning up to US standards and showing the world that unlike our declared enemies, we live by the standards we preach and in doing so, we're risking American deaths?

Not so long ago, our CIC famously said, "Bring 'em on!"

Now, which is more inflammatory and could be more directly linked to inspiring the enemy to fight?

[Trinka]

So, owning up to US standards and showing the world that unlike our declared enemies, we live by the standards we preach and in doing so, we're risking American deaths?

Not so long ago, our CIC famously said, "Bring 'em on!"

Now, which is more inflammatory and could be more directly linked to inspiring the enemy to fight?
These photos by far

[Coffi]

We already did that.

Now we're just picking old scabs.

Actually we are just now investigating the links between Bush and Co. and the torture. We have just gotten the memos. We are not picking old scabs, these are very fresh.

[Plasmaball]

Are you libs ever supportive or protective troops on any issue?!

Saying war is an excuse has nothing to do with supporting the troops.

Your wife is raped by some guy. You find out who it is and kill him. Should we let you go because its a crime of passion?

OR

Charge you with murder because we are a nation of laws.

[LJ14]

Despite claiming to already have read my first post I see you didn't notice that I also quoted senator McCain saying the same thing on three separate occasions, but here is something else for good measure:



-Sen McCain.

That line. "For Young People to Choose."

Exactly what I'm arguing.

I saw John McCain just this morning on Fox&Friends calling for the Obama administration to drop the matter.

[7426k]

OMG. What is WRONG with you people, anyway? Please don't tell me you actually believe stuff like this.

I'm sorry the facts in this reality-based community meet your brain with serious dissonance, but facts are facts.

G'day, Billy. You have yourself a great weekend, will ya?

[ThatGovernsLeast]

You're counting on them hating Bush.. but they attacked the World Trade Center and the USS Cole under Clinton. Now, honestly, who in the world was more happy-fun than Bill Clinton? :eh:

It's not about our president or our leadership. The radical Jihadist hates US, the people. They hate our western lifestyle. They believe it to be an affront to their own. In this, THEY CANNOT BE APPEASED.

Now, do you see why it "says so much" for Obama to confirm the perceptions of our enemies? When you take the "hating Bush instead of the American people" argument off the table, all that's left is betrayal of our national security by our current administration.

Now that's just dumb. I know you want to believe they hate our western lifestyle, but it's way more complicated than that. You actually stumbled on it. You see, things aren't just any particular way. They are that way because of something.

You say

They hate our western lifestyle. They believe it to be an affront to their own.

And don't ask why.

Well, it's not because they are muslim. It's because they feel betrayed by socio economics. Ready for this?

A brief history of Afghanistan:

-Tribes and dynasties control it.
-The UK comes in and colonizes them. Wrecks their economy and social system. Then decides they don't want it and gives it to a king.
-All these various people kill each other to be king and the people are perpetually forgotten and getting in worse and worse conditions.
-Then the Soviet Union invades and we hate them so we pay warlords to fight them off.
-Then the warlords start killing the citizens for control thrusting an already terrible place to live into chaos.
-Then the Taliban forms to liberate the people from the warlords that we payed for.
-Then the Taliban fights us.

Does those last two bullets make any sense to you? At no point in that entire time line does it stop sucking to be an Afghani citizen. They just keep siding with whoever promises to liberate them from the last person who promised to liberate them. Which is exactly what's happening now. Continued:

-We promise to liberate them from the taliban, so we go in there and fight the Taliban. Then it still sucks to be an Afghani Citizen so.
-The Taliban comes back and promises to liberate them from us.

This history is so important.
It's never been about culture. It's always been about control.

That's why it doesn't matter that it was under Clinton that the first WTC was bombed. Obama still has to end the chain with this current political maneuvering.

[bigtwnvin]

You forgot one...from what I just heard...even the tax cuts for the middle class are gone now....hmmm guess that downsizes the 95% number.........
Oh snap thats right I forgot that fairy tale comrade Soetoro was regurgitating during the campaign "years"! :D

[7426k]

not when it has the potential (however marginal you may think it is) to place our troops in any greater danger.


That's not a decision you get to make - the courts determine that.

Let's try this another way: If this went to SCOTUS and was again upheld, would you want the executive branch to ignore the ruling?

[ThatGovernsLeast]

So, your argument then is that we should all have converted to Islam and adopted Sharia law decades ago. Good one. :razz:


Nope, that is also not something I ever said. But it's really easy to ignore what I actually said and replace it with your own illusion of what people who disagree with you must think.

[animalnut]

I admit that conservatives are going to have to get used to transparancy and accountability from the White House again. Don't worry, you'll get used to it.

There is only selected transparency. Since they have released the interrogation methods, and will release the pictures, why will they not release the memos that show the effectiveness of the methods? Guess they're a tad biased in their transparency.

[Coffi]

Only in the disturbed minds of liberals is the slaughter of millions of innocent babies for convenience's sake equatable to extracting life saving information from those who have killed us, and wish to kill more of us.

Only in the minds of you and those that think like you(notice no general sweep of a large group, otherwise known as generalization), that torture is okay only when done by us.

The double standard is what has gotten us into this mess to begin with. The we are better than you and then telling them exactly the opposite of what we are doing.

It was already shown that the information gleaned was gotten before torture. So the torture was for what exactly?

I am sorry, you can't have it both ways. Either you are morally against the things that our enemies do and they are wrong, or we participate in the same activities as they are and are subsequently no different than them.

The people of the US are making a stand saying we don't want to be like those people. That we can rise above this.

Why is it so important to protect the ability to torture and to protect the Bush administration? I am curious what it is other than just being contrary to the current President and administration.

[ModerateVoice]

So, owning up to US standards and showing the world that unlike our declared enemies, we live by the standards we preach and in doing so, we're risking American deaths?

Not so long ago, our CIC famously said, "Bring 'em on!"

Now, which is more inflammatory and could be more directly linked to inspiring the enemy to fight?

Who benefits with the release of the photo's?!

Who do we owe an explanation to?

Do you need your liberal guilt assuaged?

Do you want to hand recruiting tools over the radical Islamists who want to kill you, me, and every other person on this forum?

Do you want to raise the risk of a soldier coming home in a body bag so that some foreign country can have a higher opinion of us? (which they will not, BTW)

Bush did not want the pics released because he was concerned about negative fall-out. In the real world, war is an ugly, bloody, and horrific place. Like you, I wish our nation was at peace, but it is not & our enemy is as evil as the Nazis. If some enemies were roughed-up there are military courts to prosecute the offenders. When this war ends, & any chance of these pictures becoming tools of war are eliminated, then I am for the release of the pics.

[ModerateVoice]

That's not a decision you get to make - the courts determine that.

Let's try this another way: If this went to SCOTUS and was again upheld, would you want the executive branch to ignore the ruling?

On a personal level, I would prefer these pics be released when there is no chance that it poses a risk to our troops in the field.

If SCOTUS were to uphold the decision, then it has been exhausted through our court system. That is the best anyone can ask for in terms of justice in this nation.

[Plasmaball]

On a personal level, I would prefer these pics be released when there is no chance that it poses a risk to our troops in the field.

If SCOTUS were to uphold the decision, then it has been exhausted through our court system. That is the best anyone can ask for in terms of justice in this nation.

You dont release the pictures and rumors spread of the abuse anyways. Which creates more terrorism recruitment.

You do release them and you increase recruitment anyways.

Lose-lose no matter how you want to play it.

[Middy]

How can one think or agree that making such photos documents etc. Visible or displayed for the world to see do us any good? I would never in a million years think that we would be living in such times. Millions are unemployed our economy in a deep HOLE!!!!!!!! all while we have a president in office who visits other countries and puts our very own country to shame!!!!! This is not a representation of any American i know wants on their behalf.

It's a pretty Orwelian time we're in......under an anti-American President..

[blackcatrun]

Lack of vision on obamas part. That can distroy this mans dreams in one second...and make this nation weep like it has never weeped before.

The enemy waits and is given a new vision for a recruit to take an action.
AS this obamas revenge takes root the effects are going to kill a lot of Americans. Not here at first but over seas in nations where the military isn't present and wont get to the area because of soverny issues.
A lot of folks here on the soil of this nation will perish from this action as well.

The idea that some how we are being a better people from this action is no more than a charge to invite an enemy to our doors even more convinced that they can indeed distory our wills by killing our people.

So buck up folks..this war's about to get a whole lot closer to our front doors.

[ModerateVoice]

You dont release the pictures and rumors spread of the abuse anyways. Which creates more terrorism recruitment.

You do release them and you increase recruitment anyways.

Lose-lose no matter how you want to play it.

We will have to disagree.

...One picture is worth a thousand "rumors" & thus are far more inflammatory.

[Miss America]

When will this madness end?

When this place that we call the United States of America...is just a memory?

[blackcatrun]

On a personal level, I would prefer these pics be released when there is no chance that it poses a risk to our troops in the field.

If SCOTUS were to uphold the decision, then it has been exhausted through our court system. That is the best anyone can ask for in terms of justice in this nation.

They will print them, they will show them on TV, they will command justice be done. Well while everyone is screaming..the radical islam will make no bones about going after Americans on forgion soil.
When we start dieing in other nations know this they will kill us here in America in drasticly high numbers with out any doubts in my mind.

[Trinka]

Lack of vision on obamas part. That can distroy this mans dreams in one second...and make this nation weep like it has never weeped before.

The enemy waits and is given a new vision for a recruit to take an action.
AS this obamas revenge takes root the effects are going to kill a lot of Americans. Not here at first but over seas in nations where the military isn't present and wont get to the area because of soverny issues.
A lot of folks here on the soil of this nation will perish from this action as well.

The idea that some how we are being a better people from this action is no more than a charge to invite an enemy to our doors even more convinced that they can indeed distory our wills by killing our people.

So buck up folks..this war's about to get a whole lot closer to our front doors.
And on our streets

[ModerateVoice]

They will print them, they will show them on TV, they will command justice be done. Well while everyone is screaming..the radical islam will make no bones about going after Americans on forgion soil.
When we start dieing in other nations know this they will kill us here in America in drasticly high numbers with out any doubts in my mind.

...but, hey, that's all "cool" because we will feel better about ourselves for having released the photos. :rolleyes:

[Plasmaball]

We will have to disagree.

...One picture is worth a thousand "rumors" & thus are far more inflammatory.

oh please, all one has to do is look at religion and see you dont need a picture to do your dirty work.

[Plasmaball]

When will this madness end?

When this place that we call the United States of America...is just a memory?

you keep on saying things like this as if there is a remote chance this will ever happen.

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

When does the large format coffee table book come out?

[ModerateVoice]

oh please, all one has to do is look at religion and see you dont need a picture to do your dirty work.

Remember the Muhammad cartoons?

Image + radical Islam = violence and murder

[supreme_war_Pig]

Prison abuse photos from Afghanistan/Iraq to be released. When will this madness end?

Soon. The first step of atonement is admitting that you have commited a crime.

[BillyM 2007]

The first step of atonement is admitting that you have commited a crime.
Obama will never admit to this.

[Plasmaball]

Remember the Muhammad cartoons?

Image + radical Islam = violence and murder

i have the whole history and a few "books" ( bible, koran) that are full of words.

Can you do better?

[ModerateVoice]

i have the whole history and a few "books" ( bible, koran) that are full of words.

Can you do better?

A stupid cartoon image enrages the entire middle east to the point of violence. That isn't a sufficient enough answer?

[supreme_war_Pig]

The liberals running amok in our government are getting crazier by the day... We are now close to releasing "prison abuse" photos from Afghanistan and Iraq. Our nation’s enemies must be rolling on the floor laughing over our inexcusable stupidity.

Watering down the definition of torture to include water boarding and insects was bad enough (akin to redefining jay-walking as a felony)… and NOW THIS.

This is insane, people.

Oh, and isn't this due to a FOIA petition? In which case, they haven't much choice but to release them.

[supreme_war_Pig]

Oh DAMN, you have uncovered our evil plot! :))

I LOVE this forum, this **** is PRICELESS! You even got the word "jackboot" in! It's an exciting time to be a conservative, huh? You get to live in your own Orwellian fantasy world, where everyone's an anti American traitor but you.

Doug

Doug, I think you may be enjoying yourself a little too much.

[Hoobeedoo Bejesus]

Doug, I think you may be enjoying yourself a little too much.

It is rather entertaining.

The only way I can see it getting more entertaining is if Texas actually tries to secede.

[Plasmaball]

A stupid cartoon image enrages the entire middle east to the point of violence. That isn't a sufficient enough answer?

A book sets a deep belief that sets the stage for said outrage. That sets the stage for set ideals and vigor.

[penner01]

Are you libs ever supportive or protective troops on any issue?!You know the two part answer that this is going to be.

[penner01]

Oh, and isn't this due to a FOIA petition? In which case, they haven't much choice but to release them.An FOIA petition doesn't automatically mean they get it.

[penner01]

Prison abuse photos from Afghanistan/Iraq to be released. When will this madness end?

Soon. The first step of atonement is admitting that you have commited a crime.I guess that relies on one feeling there is something to atone for.

[PredFan]

The liberals running amok in our government are getting crazier by the day... We are now close to releasing "prison abuse" photos from Afghanistan and Iraq. Our nation’s enemies must be rolling on the floor laughing over our inexcusable stupidity.

Watering down the definition of torture to include water boarding and insects was bad enough (akin to redefining jay-walking as a felony)… and NOW THIS.

This is insane, people.

I say torture them unmercifly, then kill them, don't take pictures.

[LJ14]

Now that's just dumb. I know you want to believe they hate our western lifestyle, but it's way more complicated than that. You actually stumbled on it. You see, things aren't just any particular way. They are that way because of something.

You say



And don't ask why.

Well, it's not because they are muslim. It's because they feel betrayed by socio economics. Ready for this?

A brief history of Afghanistan:

-Tribes and dynasties control it.
-The UK comes in and colonizes them. Wrecks their economy and social system. Then decides they don't want it and gives it to a king.
-All these various people kill each other to be king and the people are perpetually forgotten and getting in worse and worse conditions.
-Then the Soviet Union invades and we hate them so we pay warlords to fight them off.
-Then the warlords start killing the citizens for control thrusting an already terrible place to live into chaos.
-Then the Taliban forms to liberate the people from the warlords that we payed for.
-Then the Taliban fights us.

Does those last two bullets make any sense to you? At no point in that entire time line does it stop sucking to be an Afghani citizen. They just keep siding with whoever promises to liberate them from the last person who promised to liberate them. Which is exactly what's happening now. Continued:

-We promise to liberate them from the taliban, so we go in there and fight the Taliban. Then it still sucks to be an Afghani Citizen so.
-The Taliban comes back and promises to liberate them from us.

This history is so important.
It's never been about culture. It's always been about control.

That's why it doesn't matter that it was under Clinton that the first WTC was bombed. Obama still has to end the chain with this current political maneuvering.


So, your solution then is that we build a Time Machine, go back in time and stop the British from colonizing Afghanistan. (????)
Maybe while we're at it, we'll destroy the Jewish people in order to keep them from offending the Palestinians. Does that mean we were on the wrong side of WWII then? :eek:

Here's the bottom line... Extremists are NOT rational people. The Taliban isn't mad at us because we ****ed them off at some point in history. Afterall, not all Afghanis are Taliban. They're mad at us because we EXIST.

The first thing I can remember reading about the Taliban is a little article some years back about their destruction of the world's two largest Buddha statues. They were dated at about 400 ad. Their value was incalculable.
Now, to the best of my knowledge those two Buddha statues had never interfered in Afghani history. Nope. They were merely an offense to the extremist ideology of the Taliban.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1326063/After-1700-years-Buddhas-fall-to-Taliban-dynamite.html

Week before last, they executed a 19 year-old girl and a 21 year-old boy for... eloping.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=7330300
We could go on and on, citing case after case of Taliban craziness. But it would be tedious.

The truth of the matter is that You cannot reason with unreasonable people.

There is nothing we can offer the radical Jihadist which will appease him. The left is on a fool's errand, believing that Barack Obama's charm will win the day. It won't.

Because...
You cannot reason with unreasonable people. :wall:

[penner01]

A brief history of Afghanistan:

-Tribes and dynasties control it.
-The UK comes in and colonizes them. Wrecks their economy and social system. Then decides they don't want it and gives it to a king.
-All these various people kill each other to be king and the people are perpetually forgotten and getting in worse and worse conditions.
-Then the Soviet Union invades and we hate them so we pay warlords to fight them off.
-Then the warlords start killing the citizens for control thrusting an already terrible place to live into chaos.
-Then the Taliban forms to liberate the people from the warlords that we payed for.
-Then the Taliban fights us.

Does those last two bullets make any sense to you? At no point in that entire time line does it stop sucking to be an Afghani citizen.
One of your posts I can agree with. But in the context of why "muslims" (quotes because I'm not really making a blanket statement) hate us. The history lesson is a valuable one, but that's one component. Muslims that do hate us speak of a great deal more than one country's history. Afghanistan is not the source of there infidel view of America.

[Nutnhoney]

I admit that conservatives are going to have to get used to transparancy and accountability from the White House again. Don't worry, you'll get used to it.



Seriously....."transparancy and accountability" :rolleyes:

[jwil59]

I don't see what purpose can be served by releasing these photos.

[LJ14]

Seriously? Sink to their level of operation? If done your way, what would separate them from us?

I don't think he was being serious. But to be honest... I can't see any reason why our soldiers would bother taking prisoners at this point. They're not police officers in a position to gather evidence for the civilian trials the Obama administration seems intent upon. And the prisoners are of little and no intelligence value if you're not allowed to discomfit them in interrogation.

The simpler course will be 'shoot to kill'. :eek:

(Bleeding-heart libs just don't think these things through, do they?)

[Guvnah]

it proves to a lot of detractors that we dont do dirty crap or wrong things and attempt to cover it up or white wash it

We know that the previous release of Abu Graib photos stirred up anti-American sentiment.

Releasing MORE OF THE SAME will do the same.

Does it take the release of these photos to achieve what you said above?

[Hatch]

It's like they WANT us to get attacked again. Like they're trying to make the Arab world mad enough to hit us again.

I think our Gov't almost likes us in a constant state of fear and dependency.

Obama says he's now putting Nat'l Security 1st...of course, not on our BORDER.

[Guvnah]

Originally Posted by Guvnah
We already did that.

Now we're just picking old scabs.


Actually we are just now investigating the links between Bush and Co. and the torture. We have just gotten the memos. We are not picking old scabs, these are very fresh.

The pictures in question are the scabs. They are just more of what has already been released.

The "links" aren't going to get investigated any further. A week from now the grandstanding on this issue will be history. But even if it's not, even if there is a media circus congressional investigation, it doesn't take the release of THESE PICTURES to conduct that.

This most certainly is picking old scabs.

And it's gong to re-infect old wounds of Islamic anti-American sentiment.

[penner01]

I don't think he was being serious. But to be honest... I can't see any reason why our soldiers would bother taking prisoners at this point. They're not police officers in a position to gather evidence for the civilian trials the Obama administration seems intent upon. (Bleeding-heart libs just don't think these things through, do they?)Actually, there has been a great deal of exactly that kind of function done by our military in Iraq and they were/are being training in the techniques. Sort of a waste of a good soldier's time it seems to me.

[LJ14]

Actually, there has been a great deal of exactly that kind of function done by our military in Iraq and they were/are being training in the techniques. Sort of a waste of a good soldier's time it seems to me.

I honestly don't understand why anybody would enlist under Obama. It's hard enough in the military just to get your job learned and then accomplished. I mean, if you're gonna end up being a cop, why not do it in the relative comfort of the United States instead of some rocky spit of land in Afghanistan? :eh:

And given this business of arbitrarily deciding to investigate people for "war crimes", whereby that which is legal one day is illegal the next with prosecution grandfathered in... what's the incentive for military service?

[penner01]

I honestly don't understand why anybody would enlist under Obama. It's hard enough in the military just to get your job learned and then accomplished. I mean, if you're gonna end up being a cop, why not do it in the relative comfort of the United States instead of some rocky spit of land in Afghanistan? :eh:

And given this business of arbitrarily deciding to investigate people for "war crimes", whereby that which is legal one day is illegal the next with prosecution grandfathered in... what's the incentive for military service?Well, in fairness, the soldier/cop started well before Obama.

[sivey]

I don't think we can fix it until we take a long hard look at what we've done.
In that same vain try this one on for size. How about releasing those pictures where Daniel Pearl's head was being severed with a dinner knife. This way we can put things into perspective and better understand these animals some seem to think are being disenfranchised by being dunked under water and allowed to to see girls prance around in their panties and skimmies.

[LJ14]

Well, in fairness, the soldier/cop started well before Obama.

Hence the term "police action", I suppose. :eh:

All I know is that I'd never encourage my kids to service under this administration. It's arbitrary in its manner, and does not put our citizens first, IMHO.



On the upside, I just heard O'Reilly say that Obama has once again flip-flopped on investigating the matter.
It's a wonder we all don't have whiplash. :))

[mgifford]

His experience in interrogation teaches us that it is not always about fighting, but respect. The way that we win this war is through a battle of respect, not guns. They've got more people willing to blow themselves up than we have money to spend on bullets. So we cannot win that way. The way we win is by demonstrating to these people that their leaders do not respect them or their cause, but are instead manipulating them with propaganda to fight their own causes.

We can pull these people away from their ruthless leaders and stop them from fighting us by showing them decency instead of brutality. Alexander was able to take down their leaders this way. The fuzzy feelings you demean, it's important. The pictures represent that we respect their lives and are willing to confront what the previous administration did to them. It demonstrates that we are willing to meet them on equal grounds, even though we all know that that is not true. But if even a single combatant is pulled away from Al-qaeda this way, then all the lives that combatant would end are saved.

Such a dream world you live in. These terrorists have one thing in mind and that's killing us, so you really should get a clue.

[STEEL]

integrity
One entry found.


Main Entry: in·teg·ri·ty
Pronunciation: \in-ˈte-grə-tē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English integrite, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French integrité, from Latin integritat-, integritas, from integr-, integer entire
Date: 14th century
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : incorruptibility
2 : an unimpaired condition : soundness
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : completeness

I didn't ask for some irrelevant definition out of a dictionary.

I asked a very differnt question.

Is it safe to assume you have no answer for me?

[BillyM 2007]

In that same vain try this one on for size. How about releasing those pictures where Daniel Pearl's head was being severed with a dinner knife. This way we can put things into perspective and better understand these animals some seem to think are being disenfranchised by being dunked under water and allowed to to see girls prance around in their panties and skimmies.
Now that we are so hell-bent on releasing photo's that are designed to be politically charged, how about we release photo's of abortion vicitms? Especially the late term ones that Obama was all in favor of.

[PredFan]

Seriously? Sink to their level of operation? If done your way, what would separate them from us?

Lots of things. Two here just off the top of my head.

1. The people we torture and kill will not be innocent.
2. Our motives will be protection, not aggression like theirs is.


Do you really think that the only thing separating us from them is that we don't torture?

[PredFan]

I don't think he was being serious. But to be honest... I can't see any reason why our soldiers would bother taking prisoners at this point. They're not police officers in a position to gather evidence for the civilian trials the Obama administration seems intent upon. And the prisoners are of little and no intelligence value if you're not allowed to discomfit them in interrogation.

The simpler course will be 'shoot to kill'. :eek:

(Bleeding-heart libs just don't think these things through, do they?)

I was being totally serious. that is what I would do.

The reason for taking prisoners and torturing, is for information. Information is more important to war than any other element.

[ModerateVoice]

Do you really think that the only thing separating us from them is that we don't torture?

No, the libs get it, they just don't care. They are more interested in a partisan witch hunt than they are about the backlash that will place our troops in harm's way...yet they whine about waterboarding.

[PredFan]

no, the libs get it, they just don't care. They are more interested in a partisan witch hunt than they are about the backlash that will place our troops in harm's way...yet they whine about waterboarding.

+1

[Roberts_the_man]

Serious suggestion:

If any intel agent or agency are monitoring this thread...

Don't quit the service .

The Barry and his compadres are THE gift that keeps on giving.

Return the favor.

You have the tools.

Investigate him, all of his documents(BC, passport, college records, etc.), all of his friends(Soros, Ayers, Rezko, Khalidi, etc. and find some iron clad proof to release about him that will make him and his criminal pals all abdicate.

Then we can all have sanity and our country back, you can keep your jobs and the country can be once again kept safe by your valuable well apreciated service to our country.

[BillyM 2007]

No, the libs get it, they just don't care. They are more interested in a partisan witch hunt than they are about the backlash that will place our troops in harm's way...yet they whine about waterboarding.
The Left is rapidly transforming this once great nation into some kind of backward, Third-World, Banana Republic.

I wonder?

How long before we begin seeing colonels with mirrored sunglasses?

[penner01]

Hence the term "police action", I suppose. :eh:

All I know is that I'd never encourage my kids to service under this administration. It's arbitrary in its manner, and does not put our citizens first, IMHO.



On the upside, I just heard O'Reilly say that Obama has once again flip-flopped on investigating the matter.
It's a wonder we all don't have whiplash. :))Well, Police action is even further removed. I don't know how long ago it started but my kid was a Marine Cpl grunt in Iraq and they actually sent him to a forensics school for gathering evidence. Good position to be in huh....dusting for prints when the **** hits the fan.