Is National Health Care Really So Bad?

[seamus]

I admit that national health care probably would not work in a highly capitlist countrys such as the U.S, but what about countries in Europe. I'm Irish and live in Northen Ireland where we have the N.H.S (National Health Service) which offers free health care for everybody and it seems to work fairly well. Also the level of sevice is not cut back in any way which some Americans find hard to believe.

[jungulator]

Sure, if you don't like going to the doctor, it's fine. What you don't realize is that once you give Americans something for free, like health care, everyone with a stuffy nose is going to flood the doctors offices, leaving people who are really sick to stick it out in the cold waiting to get in.

[tocsinia]

Let's have some Canadians weigh in. I understand at the end of last year all of the maternity wards in SW Canada were full. That left a good number of moms in labor to cross the border, some at a three hour drive to give birth here. More American citizens. I've worked in the healthcare field. We'll just be left with Drs. who don't really care, inundated in paperwork and people waiting six months for cardiac care. I guess we should just line up for the happy pills when we're seventy and save the cradle to grave system a bundle of great people....

[jimjames418]

The government of Canada provides a web site that lists the wait times for various health services at each of the regional hospitals. At least they let you know in advance that it will be a long wait. ;)

Wait Times in Canada - Health Care System (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/qual/acces/wait-attente/index-eng.php)
May 25, 2007 ... Provides overviews of different access to health care services and wait time reduction initiatives in Canada including the federal Wait ...

[Oddball]

Is National Health Care Really So Bad?
Not if you're satisfied with the services rendered by and "success" rates of gubmint schooling or the the "war" on (some) drugs.

[johnrocks]

Not if you're satisfied with the services rendered by and "success" rates of gubmint schooling or the the "war" on (some) drugs.

Now, now, the SEC protected us from Madoff for what....30 years?:))(or did they protect Madoff for 30 years:shifty:)

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

I admit that national health care probably would not work in a highly capitlist countrys such as the U.S, but what about countries in Europe. I'm Irish and live in Northen Ireland where we have the N.H.S (National Health Service) which offers free health care for everybody and it seems to work fairly well. Also the level of sevice is not cut back in any way which some Americans find hard to believe.
Be prepared to be called (in so many words) a liar.

[johnrocks]

I've never been to Great Britain but I see a lot of things that cause me concern with the NHS.


Time for the NHS to go back to basics
Paul Steane went into hospital to be cared for but, after a catalogue of medical blunders, took his own life. Olga Craig meets his widow who now campaigns to overhaul the NHS

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/heal-our-hospitals/5067536/Time-for-the-NHS-to-go-back-to-basics.html


Heal our Hospitals: Doctors now treat traumas caused by hospital stays
Letters, April 5: Heal our hospitals - Will Brown's G20 spending work? - Liberal Anglicans - Speed does not kill - Competitive police - Miss Smith's lesson abour privacy - Ukip has peaked - Less Welsh booze
SIR – I applaud your campaign to right the disasters that are being inflicted daily on patients (report, March 29). I am a consultant in community palliative medicine and a great deal of my time is now taken up with trying to heal the psychological traumas that patients have endured while in hospital.

For example, I visited an elderly patient in a cancer centre to find him filthy, dehydrated (the cold cup of tea was out of his reach), and with pus sticking his eyes together. He begged me to get him home before "they kill me". I telephoned his wife who told me that she had been complaining for three days about his eyes and nothing had been done.


Six die as vulnerable patients 'failed' by 'appalling' NHS
Six vulnerable people died in NHS care in a system which has demonstrated a litany of "significant and distressing failures", an official report has concluded.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5041374/Six-die-as-vulnerable-patients-failed-by-appalling-NHS.html

Now this one is old but still....
Hospital trusts go broke as NHS is bled dry
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/hospital-trusts-go-broke-as-nhs-is-bled-dry-1350663.html

[jimjames418]

Be prepared to be called (in so many words) a liar.
It only works so well because a whole lot of people have private health insurance. At least according to the information I have seen.

LINK (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/health/health-insurance/private_health_insurance)
A number of companies offer voluntary private health insurance in Ireland.

The Voluntary Health Insurance Board (http://www.vhi.ie/) (VHI) is the largest provider of voluntary private health insurance. It is a statutory body whose board is appointed by the Minister for Health and Children. QUINN-healthcare (http://www.quinn-healthcare.com/) is the second largest provider of voluntary private health insurance in Ireland. Hibernian Aviva (http://www.hibernian.ie/) is the third voluntary private health insurance provider to operate in Ireland. There are a number of long-established health insurance providers that deal only with particular groups of employees; membership is confined to employees and retired employees and their dependants. These schemes are known as restricted membership schemes.

Examples include the Gardaí, prison officers and ESB employees. The rules governing health insurance apply equally to all providers with some limited exceptions for the restricted membership schemes.

[tinydancer]

National Health Care is just swell.

Man with Down's syndrome dies after starving for 26 days in hospital

Martin Ryan could not talk and no one took any action to feed him

Vera Ryan knew her son Martin as a charming, strong and energetic man, who never had a chance to start a family or develop a career owing to severe learning difficulties. He had Down's syndrome and epilepsy. It took him a while to get to know people because he could not communicate verbally and his behaviour was unusual.

But that lifelong condition should not have caused his death at the age of 43.

In November 2005 he suffered a stroke at a residential home where he had been living happily with carers in Richmond, south-west London. He was transferred to a general ward at Kingston hospital.

Doctors and nurses should have been immediately concerned about nutrition for a patient who could not swallow as a result of the stroke. He could not talk, but speech therapists and community nurses tried to intervene on his behalf.

The ombudsmen said: "They could not make themselves heard and nothing happened to help Mr Ryan. Nobody took any action to feed him."

After he had lain starving in a hospital bed for 18 days, the medical team realised that he needed to have a feeding tube fitted. But by then he was too ill to undergo the procedure. He died eight days later.

The death certificate gave the reasons as pneumonia and stroke, but the ombudsmen observed: "He was not fed for 26 days and it is an indisputable fact ... that without sufficient food people weaken and die."

The ombudsmen said the case was a distressing example of disability-related service failure. "Had the care and treatment Mr Ryan received not fallen so far below the relevant standard it is likely his death could have been avoided."

They awarded £40,000 compensation to Mr Ryan's parents.

Just awesome don't you think? And this is not just one example. I have many more.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/24/neglect-nhs-learning-disabilities

[ImNewHere]

Sure, if you don't like going to the doctor, it's fine. What you don't realize is that once you give Americans something for free, like health care, everyone with a stuffy nose is going to flood the doctors offices, leaving people who are really sick to stick it out in the cold waiting to get in.

+1

The national healthcare policy will be: don't get sick.

Let government handle your medical needs and it will do so with all the efficiency of the Department of Motor Vehicles and have the bedside manner of the Internal Revenue Service.

[seamus]

I belive that what you have all stated are verry valid points which I agree with, as I do noth belive in the N.H.S myself. Private health care is most definately the way to go, but could it not be argued that these poblems that have been point out are possibly due to the poor running of the hospital by staff in a few isolated instances and not the N.H.S.

[Talk2Bill]

I have been thinking about how much it would cost. If Social Security pays out about $700 Billion a year at a 14% tax. what will this cost? We spend about $2 Trillion as it is. once it is 'free' that will go way up. Of course no malpractice insurance (if the Dr messes you up too bad) so that will cut costs.

So i am thinking at least 20% *with NO CAPS* to start. Which would mean I would pay more for my coverage. (and I am just a teacher with 3 kids).

[MrShotShot]

I admit that national health care probably would not work in a highly capitlist countrys such as the U.S, but what about countries in Europe. I'm Irish and live in Northen Ireland where we have the N.H.S (National Health Service) which offers free health care for everybody and it seems to work fairly well. Also the level of sevice is not cut back in any way which some Americans find hard to believe.

I would imagine your feelings on the NHS are highly subjective based on your age and general level of health. If you're relatively young and have no ongoing medial issues, you probably think the NHS is fantastic.

Most would probably agree that some kind of safety net is needed for a percentage of our population. But in providing that net, lets not also wreck the rest of the system or take it to the lowest common denominator.

[Gabby]

I belive that what you have all stated are verry valid points which I agree with, as I do noth belive in the N.H.S myself. Private health care is most definately the way to go, but could it not be argued that these poblems that have been point out are possibly due to the poor running of the hospital by staff in a few isolated instances and not the N.H.S.

Do you have private health insurance?

In Canada, every person has to pay about $50 a month to the government for their national health care. If they do not pay this they can be fined. Apparently this only covers non-catastrophic health care. They have to pay for catastrophic health care out of their own pocket. It also does not cover prescription drugs. So the Canadians who can afford it carry private catastrophic health care.

Is Ireland's health care program similar?

What if anything does your N.H.S. cost you out of your own pocket? What does this cover? Does it cover catastrophic care? Does it cover prescription drugs?

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Just awesome don't you think? And this is not just one example. I have many more.


And I could tell you even more from this country that would curl your hair.

[tinydancer]

And I could tell you even more from this country that would curl your hair.

Just so you know Emma, I am a huge proponent of modelling our new health care system after the French model.

It's a public and private system that the W.H.O has even given top of the world honors to.

This really makes the most sense and I've been watching systems for quite a while. Britain's is in complete shambles. There are nightmare stories daily as you know.

Canada's wait times are horrific, and there are cases such as patients in Alberta (province = state) where they had to sue to receive a life saving drug for their cancer treatments.

The province had actually decided that the life saving medication was too expensive for these patients:eek: Blessedly, the patients won their case.

I just don't want to see a National Health Care system built on KNOWN FAILURES but built on solid models like France.

Edit to add: this is a great article by the Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/08/11/frances_model_healthcare_system/

[johnrocks]

Just so you know Emma, I am a huge proponent of modelling our new health care system after the French model.

It's a public and private system that the W.H.O has even given top of the world honors to.

This really makes the most sense and I've been watching systems for quite a while. Britain's is in complete shambles. There are nightmare stories daily as you know.

Canada's wait times are horrific, and there are cases such as patients in Alberta (province = state) where they had to sue to receive a life saving drug for their cancer treatments.

The province had actually decided that the life saving medication was too expensive for these patients:eek: Blessedly, the patients won their case.

I just don't want to see a National Health Care system built on KNOWN FAILURES but built on solid models like France.

Last year, the national health system ran nearly $9 billion in debt. Although it is a smaller deficit than in previous years, it forced the government of President Nicolas Sarkozy to start charging patients more for some drugs, ambulance costs and other services. Debates over cost-cutting have become an expected part of the national dialogue on health care.

Now this is the "spin" I can't grasp and I got "schoolin" in monetary matters.

But it is not as expensive as the U.S. system, which is the world's most costly. The United States spends about twice as much as France on health care. In 2005, U.S. spending came to $6,400 per person. In France, it was $3,300.

To fund universal health care in France, workers are required to pay about 21 percent of their income into the national health care system.

How can they say it is so much less costly yet it MANDATES that 21% of your income goes to a health fund? If you make $40000 this means over $8000 of your income goes into healthcare which is a far cry from the $3300 that they claim healthcare costs, do I need more coffee to see what I'm missing here.:confused:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273

[AugustGem]

It only works so well because a whole lot of people have private health insurance. At least according to the information I have seen.

LINK (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/health/health-insurance/private_health_insurance)

Doesn't look like Northern Ireland (UK) The cost listed in Euros is a big clue :)

[tinydancer]

Last year, the national health system ran nearly $9 billion in debt. Although it is a smaller deficit than in previous years, it forced the government of President Nicolas Sarkozy to start charging patients more for some drugs, ambulance costs and other services. Debates over cost-cutting have become an expected part of the national dialogue on health care.

Now this is the "spin" I can't grasp and I got "schoolin" in monetary matters.

But it is not as expensive as the U.S. system, which is the world's most costly. The United States spends about twice as much as France on health care. In 2005, U.S. spending came to $6,400 per person. In France, it was $3,300.

To fund universal health care in France, workers are required to pay about 21 percent of their income into the national health care system.

How can they say it is so much less costly yet it MANDATES that 21% of your income goes to a health fund? If you make $40000 this means over $8000 of your income goes into healthcare which is a far cry from the $3300 that they claim healthcare costs, do I need more coffee to see what I'm missing here.:confused:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92419273

Johnrocks, I am by no means saying it's perfect but it is a system that our experts should at least be studying compared to the known failures of the health care systems in Britain and Canada.

But on the other hand, I don't trust government OR private industry to do anything properly anymore after the past year.

Skeptics Are Us should be a new club. I'd join in a heartbeat. BTW love your sig pic.

[King Cantona]

Well I'm visiting the US right now and my friend's girlfriend is a waitress, trouble is she doesn't work a full working week. Her employer doesn't give her enough hours for her to be eligible for healthcare, as far as I'm concerned Universal Healthcare should be a right not a privilege...

Bad examples of NHS care has been shown in this thread and of course this is tragic but these are isolated incidents, you could show just as many bad examples of US healthcare, no one's perfect...

Anyway while I'm over here I have travel insurance but Universal Healthcare is most definitely the way to go, how many people (like my friend's girlfriend) are going to fall through the cracks?...

[Oddball]

The battle cry of the apologist for gubmint tyranny: "Isolated incidents" :rolleyes:

[King Cantona]

The battle cry of the apologist for gubmint tyranny: "Isolated incidents" :rolleyes:

Yep, very tyrannical..........

Caring for the sick......:rolleyes:......

[Oddball]

Also typical....Hide your authoritarian at-gunpoint-if-necessary tyranny behind the elderly, infirm, and the sainted chiiiiilllldrrreeeeennnn.

No wonder my ancestors booted King Goerge's ass out of here.

[Creefer]

When has government ever done anything as effeciently as the private market?

Further, I'm starting to hear stories from countries in UHS countries where, because you are being provided health care, the government feels it can tell you what to eat, how much to weigh, and what activities to participate in.
Say goodbye freedom.

[Oddball]

When has government ever done anything as effeciently as the private market?
Well, they're pretty good at dropping bombs, spraying bullets, and imprisoning people.

Other than that, not too much.

[gonavy]

Well I'm visiting the US right now and my friend's girlfriend is a waitress, trouble is she doesn't work a full working week. Her employer doesn't give her enough hours for her to be eligible for healthcare, as far as I'm concerned Universal Healthcare should be a right not a privilege...

Bad examples of NHS care has been shown in this thread and of course this is tragic but these are isolated incidents, you could show just as many bad examples of US healthcare, no one's perfect...

Anyway while I'm over here I have travel insurance but Universal Healthcare is most definitely the way to go, how many people (like my friend's girlfriend) are going to fall through the cracks?...

Last count around 43,000,000. But hey, they just go to the ER for a stubbed toe and the Hospital adds the bill to the 11,000,000,000,000 and counting national debt. So whats the big deal?

[Creefer]

Well, they're pretty good at dropping bombs, spraying bullets, and imprisoning people.

Other than that, not too much.

Ever notice who builds all that stuff for em? ;)

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Just so you know Emma, I am a huge proponent of modelling our new health care system after the French model.

It's a public and private system that the W.H.O has even given top of the world honors to.

This really makes the most sense and I've been watching systems for quite a while. Britain's is in complete shambles. There are nightmare stories daily as you know.

Canada's wait times are horrific, and there are cases such as patients in Alberta (province = state) where they had to sue to receive a life saving drug for their cancer treatments.

The province had actually decided that the life saving medication was too expensive for these patients:eek: Blessedly, the patients won their case.

I just don't want to see a National Health Care system built on KNOWN FAILURES but built on solid models like France.

Edit to add: this is a great article by the Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/08/11/frances_model_healthcare_system/

I agree with you. I'm just saying the horrific stories and wait times, etc., happen in this country too. Much more frequently than some would care to admit.

[Dreamy]

+1

The national healthcare policy will be: don't get sick.

Let government handle your medical needs and it will do so with all the efficiency of the Department of Motor Vehicles and have the bedside manner of the Internal Revenue Service.


My health care in the hands of government bureaucrats? No thanks! They decide what procedure you will get and when? Um no thanks?

Please tell me what does the government currently manage well.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

Well I'm visiting the US right now and my friend's girlfriend is a waitress, trouble is she doesn't work a full working week. Her employer doesn't give her enough hours for her to be eligible for healthcare, as far as I'm concerned Universal Healthcare should be a right not a privilege...

Bad examples of NHS care has been shown in this thread and of course this is tragic but these are isolated incidents, you could show just as many bad examples of US healthcare, no one's perfect...

Anyway while I'm over here I have travel insurance but Universal Healthcare is most definitely the way to go, how many people (like my friend's girlfriend) are going to fall through the cracks?...

My daughter lived in the UK for 6 months a few years ago. She was eligible for the NHS care (and as it turned out, needed it for her baby and the care and follow-up received was spectacular); from what I remember, she told me that visitors from the UK get the same benefit here. Some sort of mutual agreement thing between the two countries.

[Dreamy]

Ireland's Health Act of 2004 (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1207659918&view=ag-view&docrank=4&numhitsfound=195&query_rule=%28%28$query3%29%29%3Alegtitle&query3=Health%20Act&docid=66616&docdb=Acts&dbname=Acts&dbname=SIs&sorting=none&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1)


NTPF (http://www.ntpf.ie/home/)


Just under 50% in Ireland are covered by private insurance.

[Getty Girl]

I belive that what you have all stated are verry valid points which I agree with, as I do noth belive in the N.H.S myself. Private health care is most definately the way to go, but could it not be argued that these poblems that have been point out are possibly due to the poor running of the hospital by staff in a few isolated instances and not the N.H.S.


I lived the national health life for 10 years and it SUCKED. people in the UK think its dandy cuz its all they know.

[Getty Girl]

My health care in the hands of government bureaucrats? No thanks! They decide what procedure you will get and when? Um no thanks?

Please tell me what does the government currently manage well.


absolutely nothing which begs the question, why would anyone want to grow it?

[Getty Girl]

My daughter lived in the UK for 6 months a few years ago. She was eligible for the NHS care (and as it turned out, needed it for her baby and the care and follow-up received was spectacular); from what I remember, she told me that visitors from the UK get the same benefit here. Some sort of mutual agreement thing between the two countries.


the follow up care is good, the sick care is what sucks.

[MrShotShot]

Ireland's Health Act of 2004 (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1207659918&view=ag-view&docrank=4&numhitsfound=195&query_rule=%28%28$query3%29%29%3Alegtitle&query3=Health%20Act&docid=66616&docdb=Acts&dbname=Acts&dbname=SIs&sorting=none&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1)


NTPF (http://www.ntpf.ie/home/)


Just under 50% in Ireland are covered by private insurance.

So basically it's simply another form of socialism whereas those who can afford it foot the bill for those who can't/won't. I can see why Obama likes this.

[johnrocks]

Ireland's Health Act of 2004 (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1207659918&view=ag-view&docrank=4&numhitsfound=195&query_rule=%28%28$query3%29%29%3Alegtitle&query3=Health%20Act&docid=66616&docdb=Acts&dbname=Acts&dbname=SIs&sorting=none&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1)


NTPF (http://www.ntpf.ie/home/)


Just under 50% in Ireland are covered by private insurance.

# The National Median wait time is at it's lowest of 2.9 months

# 1,846 patients still wait over 12 months for surgery with 35% of those patients waiting in two hospitals

# 3,620 patients wait over 3 months for diagnostic scopes with 47% of those patients waiting in three hospitals.

That is straight from that NTPF site.:hand:

[Dreamy]

# The National Median wait time is at it's lowest of 2.9 months

# 1,846 patients still wait over 12 months for surgery with 35% of those patients waiting in two hospitals

# 3,620 patients wait over 3 months for diagnostic scopes with 47% of those patients waiting in three hospitals.

That is straight from that NTPF site.:hand:


Yup that is why I posted it. I have a friend who lived there and had not much praise for the system.

[jimjames418]

I agree with you. I'm just saying the horrific stories and wait times, etc., happen in this country too. Much more frequently than some would care to admit.
Most of the horrific stories occur in the "government run" county hospitals.

Los Angeles' King-Harbor Hospital Shows the Cost of Government-Monopoly Health Care. Where a woman in the ER lay on the floor and bled to death while the government paid workers stepped over and around her.

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

the follow up care is good, the sick care is what sucks.
Not in her experience, sorry.

[BasicGreatGuy]

Yes, national health care really is that bad. I don't want it.

[Ballygrl]

I admit that national health care probably would not work in a highly capitlist countrys such as the U.S, but what about countries in Europe. I'm Irish and live in Northen Ireland where we have the N.H.S (National Health Service) which offers free health care for everybody and it seems to work fairly well. Also the level of sevice is not cut back in any way which some Americans find hard to believe.

I've spoken to too many people from Europe and Australia who've had to wait months for surgery that would be done right away or sooner in the US, same for people who need CT Scan's, MRI's etc. months waiting in those places, within a week in the US.

[ImNewHere]

I've spoken to too many people from Europe and Australia who've had to wait months for surgery that would be done right away or sooner in the US, same for people who need CT Scan's, MRI's etc. months waiting in those places, within a week in the US.

Basically, it's like an HMO.... only worse.

[janer]

A few years ago, when the third parties (government and private insurers) were holding up payments to doctors for an unreasonably long time, a doctor in this area raised the idea that if doctors are dependent upon third parties for their income, they are virtual employees of those entities and therefore can unionize, collectively bargain and strike. I believe he even took it to the courts and his suit was denied; there were doctors who demonstrated outside many hospitals and medical offices in NJ.
However, government employees can go on strike, so be careful what you wish for.